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Will Boeing Make A Double Decker Someday?  
User currently offlinepiedmont727 From United States of America, joined Dec 2012, 108 posts, RR: 0
Posted (1 year 5 months 10 hours ago) and read 14610 times:

with airbus making the a380 do you think boeing will ever pull for 2 decks or just a more extended 747 , i know right now they dont have time for it with the company at risk with the 787s issuses but what do you think?

38 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineAA94 From United States of America, joined Aug 2011, 560 posts, RR: 2
Reply 1, posted (1 year 5 months 9 hours ago) and read 14521 times:

I'm not sure it's really a risk issue (a la 787), but simply the fact that airlines don't have a continuing need for new VLAs like the A380/747-8.

Boeing's foray into the Extended 747 market has already been executed, with the introduction of the 747-8. As you may well know, the passenger variant hasn't really caught on. Lufthansa is the largest operator with 19 frames ordered, while KE, W3, and CA ordering smaller subfleets.

It seems to me that the industry is generally shifting to frequency versus capacity, with the exception of some major, slot-controlled routes (like DXB-JFK/LHR on EK, where the A380 works well). Airbus introduced the A380 at the right time and sold it to the right customers, and it has been successful.

But in my opinion, the market for these types of aircraft is drying up, and Boeing has already made their move. Perhaps in the future conditions will be different, and there will be a need for a variant VLA to be introduced. But that time is not now, and Boeing will stick to what they're good at.



Choose a challenge over competence / Eleanor Roosevelt
User currently offlinePolot From United States of America, joined Jul 2011, 2112 posts, RR: 1
Reply 2, posted (1 year 5 months 9 hours ago) and read 14480 times:

Been there, done that  
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User currently offlineTWA772LR From United States of America, joined Nov 2011, 1672 posts, RR: 1
Reply 3, posted (1 year 5 months 9 hours ago) and read 14439 times:

I can see Boeing making a double decker aircraft, in like 20-30 years. As AA94 says, Airbus really got the timing right on it and it may seem that around 260 orders doesn't seem like a lot, but right now, that's all the market can hold.

That said, with new technologies coming out and engine performance only getting better, Boeing will most likely create one, and it won't surprise me. Just the time isn't right, yet.

Maybe it will be the 7107, with the moniker, "Double the digits, double the decks." And with 4 GE-90-115B's!!!



Я говорю по-русский. :)
User currently offlineWingtips56 From United States of America, joined Dec 2010, 350 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (1 year 5 months 7 hours ago) and read 14212 times:

Wasn't one of the 747-X proposals showing the full-length upper deck extension, after Airbus first proposed what became the A380? They determined it was too big.


Worked for WestAir, Apollo Airways, Desert Pacific, Western, AirCal and American Airlines
User currently offlinetugger From United States of America, joined Apr 2006, 5371 posts, RR: 8
Reply 5, posted (1 year 5 months 6 hours ago) and read 14086 times:

Quoting TWA772LR (Reply 3):
And with 4 GE-90-115B's!!!

It likely won't be a quad but rather a twin. Do people here remember Keejse and the ever popular "Ecoliner"?


Then there is this that is attributed as a Boeing design but I don't know the veracity of that.


Tugg



I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. -W. Shatner
User currently offlinesweair From Sweden, joined Nov 2011, 1811 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (1 year 5 months 5 hours ago) and read 13879 times:

The market is way too small to make the huge investment, if even a 757/767 replacement NB is not viable the even smaller VLA market is totally absurd to even think of.

User currently offlineenginebird From United States of America, joined May 2007, 341 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (1 year 5 months 5 hours ago) and read 13865 times:

Quoting AA94 (Reply 1):

It seems to me that the industry is generally shifting to frequency versus capacity, [...]

This is certainly a very US-centered perspective, where such a development no doubt seems to take place. Outside the US and on longer routes, the lower seat mile costs and, as you said, the need for fewer slots when using VLAs are certainly attractive for many airlines.

When we take a look at the list of airlines that operate and/or have ordered VLAs, it is not surprising that a European manufacturer took the lead...


User currently offlineCXB77L From Australia, joined Feb 2009, 2591 posts, RR: 5
Reply 8, posted (1 year 5 months 4 hours ago) and read 13685 times:
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Quoting piedmont727 (Thread starter):
with airbus making the a380 do you think boeing will ever pull for 2 decks or just a more extended 747

If it happens, I don't think it'll happen for quite some time. I think Boeing made the right call not to launch an all new "VLA" to combat the A380 because of the dearth of orders at that end of the market. If Boeing ever go down that route, I think it will be aimed as an A380 replacement, maybe 20 years down the track.



Boeing 777 fanboy
User currently offlinerwy04lga From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 3176 posts, RR: 8
Reply 9, posted (1 year 5 months 3 hours ago) and read 13581 times:

Anybody remember the MD-12?

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a0/Md-12-2.png



Just accept that some days, you're the pigeon, and other days the statue
User currently offlinea380900 From France, joined Dec 2003, 1097 posts, RR: 1
Reply 10, posted (1 year 5 months 1 hour ago) and read 13025 times:

Quoting Wingtips56 (Reply 4):
Wasn't one of the 747-X proposals showing the full-length upper deck extension, after Airbus first proposed what became the A380? They determined it was too big.

This was never in the cards. A double decker 747 has a new wingbox. New wingbox means new aircraft. That's all there is to it.

The A380 did not kill the 747 because of the mismanagement of the program (dropped freighter). It is a disgrace (if you invest as much as Airbus did, you certainly hope to kill the 40yo competition). Now maybe it is a blessing in disguise for Airbus because the fact that the 747 is still alive is giving Boeing a full line-up. So the slowly disappearing 747 (at this point, maybe it can pick up more sales) may be a fig leaf for hiding that Boeing pretty much gave that away to Airbus.

If Boeing had no plane bigger than the 777, it would clearly look like a number two compared to Airbus (whatever the yearly fluctuations in sales). Now maybe you're gonna say: "It's a business, not a schoolyard". But then I'd suggest you examine why Airbus launched the A380 in the first place and can you be really certain that prestige had no place in the equation?

Anyway, if the 747 had been stopped, I would have said Boeing would have launch a VLA by 2025. With the 747 still around, I'd say there won't be a new Boeing VLA before 2035.

And let's not forget that traffic is increasing every year. There is room from everybody, including an airplane making the most of the 80mX80m parking spots. This size is covered by the A380 and it will prevent Boeing to play the "Airbus card" by making something slightly bigger than the competition. If they want to do bigger than Airbus, they have to change airports around the world.


User currently offlinesweair From Sweden, joined Nov 2011, 1811 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (1 year 5 months ago) and read 12987 times:

Only a double decker BWB I see no tube and wing at B in that size class. It is really a tiny market, way less than 500 frames in 20 years!!

Stupidity to go after this micro segment!


User currently offlineAesma From France, joined Nov 2009, 6471 posts, RR: 9
Reply 12, posted (1 year 5 months ago) and read 12696 times:

Quoting sweair (Reply 11):
Only a double decker BWB I see no tube and wing at B in that size class.

My opinion too.



New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
User currently offlineWolbo From Netherlands, joined Mar 2007, 482 posts, RR: 1
Reply 13, posted (1 year 5 months ago) and read 12511 times:

Quoting sweair (Reply 11):
Only a double decker BWB I see no tube and wing at B in that size class. It is really a tiny market, way less than 500 frames in 20 years!!

Stupidity to go after this micro segment!

Markets aren't static, they develop and usually change. Realistically the time-frame for a Boeing double decker (or BWB) would be 2030-2035. What is now a 'micro', but still multi-billion dollar market, can easily turn into a very sizeable one (not in market share but in value) given a projected doubling of passenger traffic by that period. Frequency increase can only take you so far.


User currently offlinesweair From Sweden, joined Nov 2011, 1811 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (1 year 5 months ago) and read 12470 times:

Quoting Aesma (Reply 12):

The ongoing NASA/Boeing X48C test flights are not just for fun, I think they see a clear advantage in the BWB shape of aircraft and cabins of non circular shape working now that composite materials become mainstream. I envision a freighter first, aft ramp loading no nose door.

And if and when the industry is ready to take the step we might see a passenger BWB being built. Doing a double decker of a BWB is less painful as the body is quite suited from the start, fat but not very long.


User currently offlinesrbmod From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 15, posted (1 year 4 months 4 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 11880 times:

One of the early 747 design studies was for a double decker a/c:



Boeing in the 1990s did study a double decker a/c design that was not based on the 747 called the New Large Airplane (NLA) but opted to pursue new variants of the 747.

Quoting Wingtips56 (Reply 4):
Wasn't one of the 747-X proposals showing the full-length upper deck extension, after Airbus first proposed what became the A380? They determined it was too big.


There was a more recent design study for a double deck 747 (At least enough of one to commission a model.):

http://airchive.com/galleries/19082.jpg

Supposedly the costs to develop this version were going to be in the $5 billion range (mainly because of the costs to design and certification of a new wingbox) and Boeing opted against pursuing it in favor of less radical designs.

The 747 variants Boeing proposed after the 744 (747-500X, 747-600X, 747-700X, 747X) did not have a full upper deck but in some of the proposals, the upper deck had increased capacity as the fuselage was stretched and this allowed for a longer upper deck.


User currently offlineME AVN FAN From Switzerland, joined May 2002, 13920 posts, RR: 25
Reply 16, posted (1 year 4 months 4 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 11559 times:

Quoting piedmont727 (Thread starter):
boeing will ever pull for 2 decks

2 decks ? in case of the A380 it is 2 decks on the passenger side, but only ONE deck for cargo+mail. Boeing might win the day with a double-double plane, which means not only double-deck above but also two decks below !


User currently offlinehOmsar From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 1148 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (1 year 4 months 4 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 10301 times:

Quoting srbmod (Reply 15):
There was a more recent design study for a double deck 747 (At least enough of one to commission a model.):

When was that model produced? It may just be the lighting/colors blending in the background, but it looks like that model has JT-9D engines.



I was raised by a cup of coffee.
User currently offlineEASTERN747 From United States of America, joined Oct 2006, 507 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (1 year 4 months 4 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 9576 times:

Well Boeing and Airbus have one thing in common....VERY UGLY double decker aircraft.....lololol

I'm not sure what an wing box is and presume it's where the wing attaches to the fuselage and inter connects with the landing gear. The drawing of a 2 engine Boeing double decker has the engines looking VERY BIG and high off the ground.
How tall would the gear have to be!!!!!!!


User currently onlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 30385 posts, RR: 84
Reply 19, posted (1 year 4 months 4 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 9316 times:
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Quoting hOmsar (Reply 17):
When was that model produced? It may just be the lighting/colors blending in the background, but it looks like that model has JT-9D engines.

Those were Boeing's house colors in the 1990s and early 2000s, so I would expect that is a concept developed between the 747-700X of 1996 and the 747X Stretch of 2000.

As for the engines, I would expect they are either Engine Alliance GP7000 or Rolls-Royce Trent 600 as those were the options being considered for those airframes.


User currently offlinesweair From Sweden, joined Nov 2011, 1811 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (1 year 4 months 4 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 9240 times:

The one with a full length upper deck looks like a LCF   But it is too narrow on the top I know, just the looks.

In a BWB we would see many more aisles, up to 8 or ten and then maybe 2 floors equal sized. Now that would be one big whopper!


User currently offlinerwessel From United States of America, joined Jan 2007, 2293 posts, RR: 2
Reply 21, posted (1 year 4 months 4 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 8043 times:
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Quoting sweair (Reply 11):
Only a double decker BWB I see no tube and wing at B in that size class. It is really a tiny market, way less than 500 frames in 20 years!!

A BWB is almost certainly going to be very wide in terms of seating, and not two decks. A major lower limit on the size of a BWB airliner is the need to humans to fit vertically into the cabin section, having a double deck would push you into an absolutely huge size. It's likely that not even cargo will be carried under the passenger section, rather it will go into compartments in the "wing" further outboard from the passenger section.


User currently offlineplatinumfoota From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 556 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (1 year 4 months 4 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 6902 times:
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Who says it has to be a wide body??  Wow!   


Never forget United 93
User currently offlinecornutt From United States of America, joined Jan 2013, 338 posts, RR: 1
Reply 23, posted (1 year 4 months 4 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 6751 times:

Quoting Polot (Reply 2):
Been there, done that

I was about to throw in for the 377... can't help but wonder how that would have worked out if Boeing had given it turboprops instead of the 3350s.


User currently offlineZkpilot From New Zealand, joined Mar 2006, 4798 posts, RR: 9
Reply 24, posted (1 year 4 months 4 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 6644 times:

Quoting sweair (Reply 14):

And if and when the industry is ready to take the step we might see a passenger BWB being built. Doing a double decker of a BWB is less painful as the body is quite suited from the start, fat but not very long.

   my thoughts exactly.



56 types. 38 countries. 24 airlines.
25 canyonblue17 : Any chance a Boeing (or Airbus for that matter) double decker could be used efficiently enough to justify them on short haul routes? For example, if y
26 prebennorholm : No need to wonder. The B377-SG (Super Guppy) flew for many years with Allison 501 turboprops.
27 Post contains links Viscount724 : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xLLL_noavn8
28 longhauler : I have to guess that is a staged photo of the passengers boarding into the rear of an American Overseas Airlines, B377. That door led to the rear car
29 Bureaucromancer : It might be a real possibility for a 777 replacement, so yes, conceivable but a long way out. Assuming enough other improvements to justify a new fram
30 gemuser : A cargo hatch with an air stair door? That seems unlikely. Maybe there were different configurations available? Gemuser
31 longhauler : Yes, both the forward and read cargo holds had the same type of door. When a belt loader was used, it was over the stairs.
32 Post contains images ajhYXE : Just like how the A320 killed its 20 year old competition, the Boeing 737. Airbus launched the A380 because they believed they could make money with
33 LH707330 : Boeing used the PW R4360s while the Connie and DC-7 used the Wright 3350. Although the 3350 had its share of issues, the 4360 was more unreliable and
34 cornutt : AFAIK, the 747SR was a special for the Japanese domestic routes. Japan is a pretty unique market with all the inter-island flying. I've heard that th
35 longhauler : Also, both the Connie and the DC-7 were offered to airlines with a turboprop version. As jets were being delivered, these versions of course, didn't
36 Post contains images SCAT15F : Also, the YC-97J, which had the same fuselage size as the Model 377 passenger version and much more powerful 5700 hp YT-34 turboprops. Giving it a cr
37 Semaex : How about we start talking Global and not North-American? The US and Canada are certainly very unique markets, but you can not generalize the "smalle
38 Post contains links and images Devilfish : This again?..... . http://www.flightglobal.com/blogs/fl...hy-would-boeing-design-a-mid-.html Didn't say it had to be a VLA or quad... . The whalejet'
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