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FAA Grounds 787, Thread 9  
User currently offline777ER From New Zealand, joined Dec 2003, 12082 posts, RR: 18
Posted (1 year 5 months 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 31465 times:
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Link to the previous thread can be found here FAA Grounds 787, Part 8 (by 777ER Feb 5 2013 in Civil Aviation)

WARNING: Due to the last thread going off topic quickly and turning into a 'battle ground', the moderators will be watching this thread frequently and ANY offending/rule breaking posts will be removed. Please respect each others right to have their opinion.

225 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinePHX787 From Japan, joined Mar 2012, 7114 posts, RR: 17
Reply 1, posted (1 year 5 months 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 31421 times:

Well here we go. Hope enough people had time to calm down so I can actually post news from Japan.

As we all know, a single cell on the JL flight caused the whole battery to go off. What Boeing, FAA, NTSB, and the other investigators need to do now is figure out why it was just that one cell.


Here's the latest from Japan:

Test flight made, with 13 pilots on board, to see if battery went haywire,
"Uneventful" test:
http://www.japantoday.com/category/n...test-flight-to-probe-battery-fires

Customers getting delay warnings from Boeing

(Note: the journalism in this article suggest Boeing wants this investigation to wrap up ASAP so they can start delivering)
http://www.japantoday.com/category/b...rns-that-787-deliveries-could-slip

Batteries were often switched before the recent issues were acknowledged, some electricity powerback issues were to blame:

Quote:
All 10 replacements occurred last year—two in May, four in October, two on one day in November and two in December—involving seven Dreamliners, she said. The airline operates 17 of the planes.

ANA had not reported the replacements to the Japan Transport Safety Board (JTSB) because “the 10 problems were found before flights so were considered not to affect safety”, Yamamoto said.

A JAL spokeswoman said the company had experienced “quite a few cases” where Boeing 787 batteries had to be replaced before the aircraft was grounded worldwide. She added that no further details were immediately available.
http://www.japantoday.com/category/n...switched-many-dreamliner-batteries

In regards to JL and NH's requests for compensation for the 787 delays, Boeing said they're going to wait until the grounding order is lifted to address this. AI also is considering seeking damages too.
http://www.japantoday.com/category/b...ation-after-dreamliner-back-in-air



One of the FB admins for PHX Spotters. "Zach the Expat!"
User currently offlineSpeedbird128 From Pitcairn Islands, joined Oct 2003, 1648 posts, RR: 2
Reply 2, posted (1 year 5 months 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 31220 times:

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 1):
Test flight made, with 13 pilots on board, to see if battery went haywire,
"Uneventful" test:

I trust that this single test flight is not going to be a basis for a thumbs up to lift the grounding....???

Surely theres more testing than just a single flight to prove it won't occur again?



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User currently offlinesweair From Sweden, joined Nov 2011, 1811 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (1 year 5 months 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 31180 times:

What if this comes down to bad batteries of later batches? Have they changed the chemistry since EIS? Shorts in the battery they say, does that not point to a manufactoring glitch? They will need to beef up the containment, is that a long certification?

The cells that shorted, they must be identfied for root cause and fixed at the factory?! But if they find the "smoking gun" what happens next?


User currently offlineBoeingVista From Australia, joined Jan 2009, 1547 posts, RR: 2
Reply 4, posted (1 year 5 months 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 30986 times:

Quoting sweair (Reply 3):
What if this comes down to bad batteries of later batches? Have they changed the chemistry since EIS?

Seems so yes, added to which the NTSB has raised concerns about whether the original certification battery tests were representative.



BV
User currently offlineNAV20 From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 9909 posts, RR: 36
Reply 5, posted (1 year 5 months 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 30650 times:

Quoting sweair (Reply 3):
What if this comes down to bad batteries of later batches? Have they changed the chemistry since EIS? Shorts in the battery they say, does that not point to a manufactoring glitch?

Apparently a higher-than-normal proportion of batteries have required replacement since the 787 entered service - but none of the previous incidents have caused any danger. As far as a 'trend' can be established, the previous incidents have involved the batteries becoming fully discharged (mostly, apparently, due to incorrect disconnection/discharges while the aeroplanes were on the ground), at which point safety cut-offs operated and the batteries had to be exchanged.

So while Boeing will obviously have exhaustively to check the batteries themselves, it looks as if they will also have to check the rest of the aeroplane's power systems - especially the recharging processes.

For information, the batteries, as we know, are produced by GS Yuasa in Japan. The firm in general charge of the design of the 787's electrical systems is the French company, Thales. The recharging system was designed by a firm called Securaplane, based in Tucson, Arizona - they were a US firm when they joined the 787 programme, but they have since been taken over by a British company, Meggitt PLC.

So it looks as if a truly international effort will be needed to sort this business out.......  


Quoting Speedbird128 (Reply 2):
I trust that this single test flight is not going to be a basis for a thumbs up to lift the grounding....???

No chance at all of that, Speedbird128. I imagine that test flights will continue nonstop for quite a while.

[Edited 2013-02-10 04:46:41]


"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
User currently offlineSpeedbird128 From Pitcairn Islands, joined Oct 2003, 1648 posts, RR: 2
Reply 6, posted (1 year 5 months 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 30562 times:

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 5):
No chance at all of that, Speedbird128. I imagine that test flights will continue nonstop for quite a while.

I would also imagine so... it just sounded that 1 positive test flight and it was looking good. That in itself is great, but 99.9% of flights had no battery thermal runaways either... so it was just my inquisiviteness at the wording of the report.

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 5):
So it looks as if a truly international effort will be needed to sort this business out

Thats what the 787 is (and most major other engineering projects as well) - a major international effort.



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User currently offlineAesma From France, joined Nov 2009, 6473 posts, RR: 9
Reply 7, posted (1 year 5 months 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 30406 times:

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 5):
The firm in general charge of the design of the 787's electrical systems is the French company, Thales.

I don't think that's true. At least when we were talking about the ZA002 incident, it was Zodiac that was involved. Another French company.



New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
User currently offlineNAV20 From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 9909 posts, RR: 36
Reply 8, posted (1 year 5 months 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 30336 times:

Quoting Aesma (Reply 7):
I don't think that's true. At least when we were talking about the ZA002 incident, it was Zodiac that was involved. Another French company.

Looks like they're both involved, Aesma? I've no idea to what extent the situation affects each individual company:-

"Les malheurs du 787 pourraient avoir de sérieuses conséquences pour les équipementiers aéronautiques français. De tous les Boeing, cet avion est celui sur lequel la part d'équipements français est la plus importante, si l'on exclut les moteurs CFM du 737. Safran, Thales et Zodiac vendent chacun pour plusieurs millions de dollars d'équipements par appareil. Tout problème technique qui ralentirait le rythme de production et de livraison du « dreamliner » serait autant de chiffre d'affaires en moins pour eux."

http://www.lesechos.fr/entreprises-s...-la-production-ralentit-529236.php



"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
User currently offlinesweair From Sweden, joined Nov 2011, 1811 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (1 year 5 months 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 30319 times:

I think Hamilton Sundstrand has a big part of the electrical system.

User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 30415 posts, RR: 84
Reply 10, posted (1 year 5 months 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 29991 times:
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Quoting Speedbird128 (Reply 2):
Surely theres more testing than just a single flight to prove it won't occur again?
Quoting NAV20 (Reply 5):
No chance at all of that, Speedbird128. I imagine that test flights will continue nonstop for quite a while.

The article quotes a Boeing spokesperson as noting there will be multiple test flights the following week.

[Edited 2013-02-10 08:04:49]

User currently onlineRevelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 12283 posts, RR: 25
Reply 11, posted (1 year 5 months 2 days ago) and read 29799 times:

I agree with the thread starter, let's talk ideas/opinions/issues and leave any comments about fellow posters out of this.

What I was going to post to the other thread is that I agree that the 787 won't return to service till the root cause is found and eliminated. I think it's likely that the airlines themselves if not other international agencies would reject any workaround based scheme that doesn't conclusively eliminate the root cause. From what has been made public we know short circuits appear in individual cells of the Li-Ion battery but we we haven't been told the cause of the short circuit. It seem the test flights are geared towards determining if the cells flex during flight and cause the short circuit.

It's a real ugly situation for Boeing. Changing the battery technology then requires changes to the upstream charger and monitoring tech. Not changing the battery technology means they have the burden of proving the relatively new tech is safe after the highly public failures.

It seems this is one of those times that CEOs are supposed to be earning their ridiculously high salaries (something like 400 times the average worker's wage in the US). Time to see if McNearney et al can save the day!



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User currently offline2175301 From United States of America, joined May 2007, 1026 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (1 year 5 months 2 days ago) and read 29563 times:

Hmmm.

I would disagree that the root cause has to be eliminated. It has to be understood; and contained from causing significant flight or safety issues.

It is also possible that they may never find a leading Root Cause. Sometimes all you do in these investigations is identify things that need improvement; even if you cannot conclude that one (or two) of them are the Root Cause.


I would also agree that the batteries on the test flights are heavily instrumented with all kinds of extra sensors. For example mounting stress/strain gauges on the connecting bus bars and individual terminal posts seems rather obvious. I do believe that it is likely that the flexibility of the cells and the rigidity of the connecting bus bars are causing unanticipated flexing in the cells near the terminal post. That kind of problem occurs in all kinds of industries. Usually the answer is to provide more flexibility as you can rarely make the rest of the system ridged enough.

My personal guess at the solution for these batteries is:
1) The basic cell is reused as is.
2) Ridged connecting bars between the cells are replaced by flexible cables
3) To prevent a run-away cell from overheating the next cell about a 1/16" - 1/8" layer of insulating ceramic (likely the same material as the Space Shuttle Tiles as it is readily available) will be placed between the cells.
4) The containment box will become more robust.
5) They may include better temperature monitoring of the individual cells; which will require software changes in at least the monitoring and data storage software (I doubt this warrants any changes to information presented to the flight deck).

Have a great day,


User currently offlineDTW2HYD From United States of America, joined Jan 2013, 1679 posts, RR: 2
Reply 13, posted (1 year 5 months 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 27817 times:

Would large number of smaller cells helped with thermal runaway issue. I was reading Telsa Roadster's battery system paper. It has 6800 small cells vs 8 large cells on B787. Likelyhood of a car battery pack getting damaged is very high, but not many lives at risk. Tesla's theorey is 6800 x approx AA size batteries create large surface area to dissipate heat optimally.

User currently offlinejetblueguy22 From United States of America, joined Nov 2007, 2741 posts, RR: 4
Reply 14, posted (1 year 5 months 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 27753 times:
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Quoting sweair (Reply 9):

I know someone who is high level in UTC Aerospace Systems (the company Goodrich is now a part of) and he has said they did tests on the electrical system they provided and found it has nothing to do with the issues. It all leads back to the battery. Obviously I can't reveal who it is so people may not believe me but I put a lot of faith in this guy.
Pat



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User currently offlinesweair From Sweden, joined Nov 2011, 1811 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (1 year 5 months 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 27698 times:

Quoting RNAVFL350 (Reply 13):
I am completely confused by this response to PHX787's post. Care to explain what exactly was absurd about his post (reply 13)

He insinuated that Boeing would be happy to do a test flight and declare the plane safe. If they have learned something it is how fast the media spreads negativity and if they would even think acting that way..well it is absurd!

Not even the most greedy bean counter would think of that being a good idea right now, look we took a test flight and now back to business..


User currently offlinePHX787 From Japan, joined Mar 2012, 7114 posts, RR: 17
Reply 16, posted (1 year 5 months 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 27015 times:

Quoting sweair (Reply 16):
He insinuated that Boeing would be happy to do a test flight and declare the plane safe. If they have learned something it is how fast the media spreads negativity and if they would even think acting that way..well it is absurd!

That wasn't what I was insinuating. I am suggesting that B make these test flights, see the input and output with the battery, possibly show that it was a Yuasa thing, and bada-boom bada-bing paperwork tests etc FAA lifts ED and we're all happy again. If the tests show irregularities with the batteries' performance and/or safety hazards, then appropriate action will be taken, will it not?


And a side note sir- your comment is exactly why 777ER issued a temporary ban on discussion about the battery problems. No need to get all attacky on me.

Back on topic:

I don't know if anyone seen this yet from NH's page, but it says that they're not going to fly the 787 again until at least the 30th of March.

Quote:
ANA has revised all flight schedules on the assumption that operations of the Boeing 787 will not recommence before March 30th. Nonetheless, we will continue to cooperate with all parties to ensure and confirm the safety of this aircraft, so that 787 flights may recommence as soon as possible.

Due to the above situation, cancellations and schedule changes have been implemented on certain routes. Also, other routes will be subject to aircraft type changes, including some routes other than those originally scheduled for Boeing 787 operation. Operational information is available from the links below.

An update for operations commencing on March 31st will be provided in this space, as soon as further details are determined.



Includes a schedule:
https://www.ana.co.jp/topics/notice130116/index_list_e.html

[Edited 2013-02-10 14:40:50]


One of the FB admins for PHX Spotters. "Zach the Expat!"
User currently offlineBEG2IAH From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 926 posts, RR: 17
Reply 17, posted (1 year 5 months 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 26906 times:
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Quoting PHX787 (Reply 17):
FAA lifts ED

You probably meant "AD". This made me laugh as it's related to a certain dysfunction and when combined with the verb "lift"...  

Cheers

[Edited 2013-02-10 14:44:30]


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User currently offlineComeAndGo From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 1019 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (1 year 5 months 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 26893 times:

They're doing the test flights to pinpoint the problem. Is it vibrations affecting the batteries, is it humidity affecting the batteries or are the cells too large and creating temperature variations within the cells like some have claimed.

The roadway back to flight is a temporary fix with more spacing between individual cells and a more robust battery case.

The permanent fix is a new battery design that avoids any kind of thermal runaway.

Without knowing the root cause there's no solution.


User currently offlineZKEYE From New Zealand, joined May 2005, 241 posts, RR: 2
Reply 19, posted (1 year 5 months 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 26769 times:

Quoting BEG2IAH (Reply 18):
This made me laugh as it's related to a certain dysfunction and when combined with the verb "lift"..

Well Boeing are having a problem getting it up aren't they?



Bring out the gimp
User currently offlineBEG2IAH From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 926 posts, RR: 17
Reply 20, posted (1 year 5 months 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 26554 times:
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Quoting ZKEYE (Reply 20):
Well Boeing are having a problem getting it up aren't they?

I would allow other interested parties to check that.



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User currently offlinecornutt From United States of America, joined Jan 2013, 338 posts, RR: 1
Reply 21, posted (1 year 5 months 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 25804 times:

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 17):
That wasn't what I was insinuating. I am suggesting that B make these test flights, see the input and output with the battery, possibly show that it was a Yuasa thing, and bada-boom bada-bing paperwork tests etc FAA lifts ED and we're all happy again.

I don't think that's what anyone really wants to see accomplished with the test flights, though. If it were me, I'd want the test flight to show that the failure, or at least the type of plate damage seen in the CAT scans of the JAL battery, can be re-created under specific conditions. Once that's done, we have a defined chain of events for how the failure occurs, and from there, we can figure out what to do about it. Presumably there would then be design mods, and an additional test flight to verify the modified battery.

The FAA doesn't care whose "thing" it is. They only care about what the problem is and how is it going to be fixed. Even if it were shown to be a manufacturing problem confined to one batch of batteries (which I doubt at this point), the FAA would want to know what is being done to prevent it from happening again.


User currently offlineRickNRoll From Afghanistan, joined Jan 2012, 768 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (1 year 5 months 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 25692 times:

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 17):
That wasn't what I was insinuating. I am suggesting that B make these test flights, see the input and output with the battery, possibly show that it was a Yuasa thing, and bada-boom bada-bing paperwork tests etc FAA lifts ED and we're all happy again. If the tests show irregularities with the batteries' performance and/or safety hazards, then appropriate action will be taken, will it not?

Not quite. Even if the batteries never fail again, the containment system has to be fixed as well.


User currently offlineDTW2HYD From United States of America, joined Jan 2013, 1679 posts, RR: 2
Reply 23, posted (1 year 5 months 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 25512 times:

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 17):
I am suggesting that B make these test flights, see the input and output with the battery, possibly show that it was a Yuasa thing, and bada-boom bada-bing paperwork tests etc FAA lifts ED and we're all happy again. If the tests show irregularities with the batteries' performance and/or safety hazards, then appropriate action will be taken, will it not?

I see few issues, No one is going to trust Boeing/FAA paper tests, not NTSB, not customers, not media, not public. NTSB already warned FAA about single cell testing assumption.

Second if Boeing design assumptions and written specs to Thales/Yuasa were wrong, it is difficult to pin on Yuasa. In a outsourced model Yuasa's responsibility is to live up to the written specs, not what Boeing thinks what a battery system should do. Obviously vendors/sub-vendors will do everything to address the issue, for PR reasons, not legal reasons.


User currently offlinePHX787 From Japan, joined Mar 2012, 7114 posts, RR: 17
Reply 24, posted (1 year 5 months 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 25517 times:

So the NTSB/FAA aren't on board these flights? Hmm I do see some conflicts then.


One of the FB admins for PHX Spotters. "Zach the Expat!"
25 AeroWesty : If you read the link you posted upthread (which is repeated by other news outlets), it says the test flight carried "a crew of 13 pilots and testing
26 kanban : Let's not find problems and let them test. That comment is the type that starts the trolls. Consider that Boeing, the FAA, and NSTB spend days/weeks
27 7BOEING7 : I'm guessing whatever Boeing is doing now is just "data collection". If and when there is a certification flight the FAA will more than likely be onb
28 RickNRoll : It would depend what stage Beoing is at. If they are saying "See it works", then I would expect FAA on board, if they doing a "We wonder if this work
29 rheinwaldner : No, not only, sadly, it could also have been charged too much, discharged too much or discharged with too much current to have a short. Or there was
30 Post contains links NAV20 : This press story appears very much to confirm your 'diagnosis,' 2175301:- "The Boeing 787 Dreamliner might get some design changes especially to its
31 francoflier : I think that would worsen the case... If a cell overheats, then this shield would prevent the excess temperature to be spread out to the rest of the
32 Post contains links Revelation : Personally, I feel that while Boeing will want to use a temporary solution to get the planes flying as soon as possible, that won't be acceptable to
33 Post contains links alfablue : 7 times official delayed and grounded by the authorities does not give me confidence in Boeings hopes - it looks (to me) that the press statements ar
34 Humanitarian : From what I am reading here and elsewhere is that any modifications may be done within the exisiting footprint of the battery boxes. The only change w
35 Post contains links AeroWesty : Polish Radio reports that LOT is extending 767 leases for an additional six months under an ominously worded headline: Dreamliner fleet grounded until
36 justloveplanes : Maybe just separating the 8 cells far enough apart in an upgraded box that contains splashing electrolyte is enough. Essentially 8 parallel, individua
37 ServantLeader : Right, it is cascading intangibles like this that will make it difficult for this to be resolved quickly and cleanly. The engineering work that shoul
38 Post contains images Revelation : I'm sure that's the hope, but I don't see a lot of excess room:
39 Post contains links AeroWesty : For those interested, there was another test flight this morning: http://flightaware.com/live/flight/B...5/history/20130211/1815Z/KBFI/KBFI
40 brilondon : A conspiracy is a foot I believe.
41 kanban : and to pursue that angle will get the thread shut down.. even in jest... Thales designed the battery system, Zodiac the distribution system.. and the
42 Post contains links NAV20 : A 'worldwide conspiracy' by the look of it......... "Even the first couple of tiers of the supply chain for these electrical systems are intricate. "
43 Post contains links airplanecrazy : I heard on CBS news that "the damage to the Japan Airlines 787 was so severe the tail could have fallen off had the fire occured in flight." I found t
44 Post contains links NAV20 : Looks like Boeing aren't planning any more test flights for now:- "Boeing said Monday's flight included two pilots and 11 flight test personnel. The t
45 14ccKemiskt : Agreed! My analysis of the events that lead to the current situation is as follows: • Boeing wants to put in all new technology advances there is a
46 ual747-600 : I was just wondering if this news story had been verified. Was the JAL 787 that had the fire on board flown back to Japan or is it still in Boston? T
47 Post contains links airplanecrazy : I first heard the story on the CBS Radio News World News Roundup on my drive home tonight, so I thought it came from a credible source. I am having t
48 PITingres : https://twitter.com/NTSB/status/301123347016720385 "NTSB investigators found only minor damage to electronics bay on JAL Boeing 787, following Jan 7 b
49 RickNRoll : Is this true? News reports from sources have been known to be wrong before, especially when a claim this dramatic is made.
50 airplanecrazy : All, Apologies for posting what must have been some kind of fabrication. Again, I did hear it on CBS Radio News and I found another web site with the
51 blrsea : I hope Boeing was able to repro the runaway either in lab or on the test flights or both. That will give more confidence in the proposed solution. But
52 cornutt : It's still in Boston. And yeah, that bit about the tail falling off because of the battery is really far-fetched, especially considering that electro
53 Aesma : They speculate on what would have happened if the battery had been left to burn with the plane flying. Not that their conclusion is that much better i
54 UALWN : Well, the BFD put out the fire, so there could have been more damage had the fire occurred mid flight. Still, having the tail fall off seems like a w
55 RickNRoll : Which is one question that has never been answered. To what extent did fire breach the containment? Not at all? A little? Only when the fire brigage
56 XT6Wagon : um, you can't put out this fire. When people talk about what to use on a lithium ion battery to "put it out" what they are really talking about is co
57 PITingres : Agreed that I'm not sure we know that in detail. There was apparently some open flame in the EE bay but given the lack of exterior paint damage on th
58 packsonflight : Looks like that the NTSB is not agreeing with you. According too the NTSB statement from 14. of January the BFD contained the fire but not the contai
59 XT6Wagon : The connectors that go through the containment vessel appear to have been melted, it might be that was producing the visible flames. If so it could b
60 woodsboy : Why not do what Gulfstream and Cessna did and just ditch this LiOn battery all together and go with what they use in say, the 777. Does it make sense
61 Post contains images nm2582 : I haven't participated much in this discussion since the early threads - decided to take a back seat and let things develop a bit more first. The ima
62 nm2582 : It would be interesting to study the design options to make this battery modular - each "brick" being isolated in it's own flame/electrolyte leakage p
63 Post contains links boacvc10 : During the US incident of a B787 landing at MSY Incident United B788 on 12/4/2012, an a.net poster made a comment that felt odd at that time, and I p
64 ZKCIF : As far as I understand, the two issues are: lack of space and need to develop a new containment system. Hence, it involves some redesign in any case.
65 rheinwaldner : Parallel? Connecting single cells parallely does not give the require voltage. You could however build 8 packs, where each consists of 8 cells serial
66 Post contains links Seat55A : The electrodes are long and are folded into an accordion shape. See the images and schematics in the Jan 24 NTSB presentation: http://www.ntsb.gov/in
67 Post contains links NAV20 : Many thanks for that information, Seat55A - and the site with illustrations. That settles it for me. In my business days I'd have 'rocketed' any cler
68 NAV20 : PS quote above is from the WSJ (John Ostrower) - the link won't post. Nor could I add my final comment - that I hope Boeing somehow 'create' the neede
69 rcair1 : What you are doing here is reducing fuel load. Nothing about this design would lower the probability of a cell going into runaway - but it would redu
70 rheinwaldner : For the root cause analysis you have to ask "why" until there is no further reason. So continueing that for this statment leads to the following upst
71 Stitch : I believe you are confusing the comments made by F9animal (based on his speaking with "higher ups at Boeing") about the incident with ZA002 at Laredo
72 Post contains links 7BOEING7 : Cessna "ditched" the LIon batteries to get their airplanes back in the air, however, they still plan to return to LIon in the future. http://www.flig
73 wjcandee : Might as well quote Mary Schiavo.
74 kanban : regarding the Boston Fire Dept. they may have been confused as to the make up of the battery and what extinguishing techniques would work and not feed
75 Stitch : They were trained on how to respond to emergencies with the 787, so how to respond to a battery fire may have been part of that training.
76 Aquila3 : So it might seem that the whole problem could be solved issuing a retrainig directive for Fire Depts. Not any more a Boeng problem. Great.
77 justloveplanes : The individual containment per cell can help prevent heat induced thermal runaway from one cell to the next (assuming proper thermal isolation , i.e.
78 XT6Wagon : With or without the grounding, we would be seeing the same investigation into preventing more fires from the battery. My statements should be in no w
79 kanban : Remember our initial confusion back about thread 3.. the extinguishing of lithium type batteries is substantially different for each formulation.. an
80 mjoelnir : Were did you get the information that the action of the fire department on Boston did more damage to the plane, rather than saving the plane from mor
81 DTW2HYD : This is the first fire incident for this model in the world. One cannot blame Fire Department for not doing a perfect job for a new model started ser
82 XT6Wagon : I think I covered that. I know why their response wasn't "perfect", and I mentioned it. going into the aircraft *ADDED* to the danger to the firefigh
83 strfyr51 : The NTSB is investigating if the recent Boeing 787 battery issues could be linked to the formation of small build-ups, known as dendrites, inside lith
84 strfyr51 : if the Lithium Ion battery is so easily contaminated then it might not be the best battery for the 787 no matter HOW much power it generates. if the b
85 DTW2HYD : A single firefighter's life is more worth than a empty hull loss. Dropping a battery to save 230+ souls makes sense even few get hurt on the ground.
86 mjoelnir : You said that the fire fighters damaged the plane or made the damage worse by touching the battery. You imply that the removal of the battery was not
87 Stitch : NiCad batteries are also susceptible to dendrite build-up, though I'm not sure it causes short circuits. It does lead to loss of charging capacity.
88 Part147 : And despite such a physically microscopic issue - there is a big difference between loss of charging capacity in a NiCad battery and Thermal Runaway
89 Post contains links rheinwaldner : This point is in the news everywhere, but we also have to read carefully. This article e.g. adds context: http://www.star-telegram.com/2013/02...als-
90 Stitch : If it is just dendrite buildup, if a non-invasive examination can be performed of the batteries, then that should allow the 787 to be returned to ser
91 rheinwaldner : Correct, therefore I wrote that dendrites are not confirmed as root cause so far. They are certainly not ruled out either. Not if they did happen bec
92 sonomaflyer : If you are suggesting that the battery should be modified to be "ejected" in flight, that will never happen. Regulations forbid that kind of feature
93 DTW2HYD : When I replied firefighter's life is more valuable than not doing a perfect job, fellow member quoted my suggestion from one of the early threads. Th
94 XT6Wagon : Which is what I have been saying... Not sure why you are insisting that I am arguing in favor of them sending someone in? You can go over the last 8
95 mjoelnir : I do not know were you get your information. Occurrence number one: The battery burns on the JAL B 787 in Boston. There is a fire in an air plane sta
96 francoflier : I doubt it can. Those dendrites seem like microscopic formations deep inside the battery cell, near the electrodes. You'd probably need to tear the b
97 RickNRoll : That would be my guess.
98 cornutt : I don't think they would have done that because the aircraft was parked at a gate. In that case, there's always the possibility of the fire spreading
99 2175301 : In an investigation like this they typically will do a destructive examination of "good" batteries and at least 10X of the number of batteries that h
100 RickNRoll : francoflier was commenting on Stitch's comment that they could inspect the batteries on the planes to see if they were still OK or needed replacing.
101 Post contains links Stitch : On the plane would be nice, but I would expect that if a non-invasive procedure could be designed, it would be performed off the plane. In other news
102 rcair1 : Yes - but it unlikely. Fire fighters are equipped and trained to enter areas of immediate life hazard - we do it carefully, but we do it. We do not l
103 Stitch : Some of the cells suffered damage from the heat generated by the runaway, but the JTSB did not officially classify it as a fire. So it sounds more li
104 AirlineCritic : I was thinking about the public relations impact of the 787 trouble today, as I was sitting next to this guy on a transcontinental flight across the U
105 ServantLeader : The 787 has been getting bad press since production delays began in 2008 -- that's a 5 year run. The only reason McNerney still has a job is that he
106 2175301 : As much as it may seem otherwise here on A-Net. The 787 is just one modest program of many that Boeing has; and the vast majority of the other progra
107 ServantLeader : That is simply not true. The 787 is Boeing's flagship program. many senior managers have been given the heave-ho by McNerney over the past 5 years du
108 Stitch : The shareholders are the one who have the power to remove him.
109 RickNRoll : Having to remove the battery for a non-invasive process that does not exist yet does not sound too solid a concept at this point in time.
110 RickNRoll : They made the kind of public comment that Boeing would not want to see. The decision is “the result of uncertainlty,” said LOT spokesman Marek Kl
111 Post contains links JoePatroni707 : Just noticed that LOT has grounded the 787 through October. IMHO I think that's a bit extreme. http://www.usatoday.com/story/todayi...ts-through-octob
112 Post contains links NAV20 : Reading between the lines of this story, it look as if the two test flights have afforded no additional clues as to what may have caused the two fires
113 RickNRoll : I don't understand that 'only one while the plane was in the air' line of reasoning. For example. a) An engine fell off, but no while it was in the a
114 7BOEING7 : The train wreck that is the 787 was already in place when McNerney took over, he was just stuck with Mullaly's mess and some messes are harder to cle
115 Post contains images PlanesNTrains : That's a good one. -Dave
116 rheinwaldner : Absolutely. They even had to assume that the containment had failed, because otherwise they wouldn't have noticed at all that there was a fire. So th
117 XT6Wagon : really dude? you might note that on the ground there is no requirements for smoke in the cabin. There was no airflow to cool the outside of the conta
118 rheinwaldner : Your claim is completely wrong. Show me where the certification requirements do differ between in-air and on-ground. I have read them and they don't
119 RickNRoll : That is the way it is designed, but IIRC, some of the deadliest plane fires have been on the ground, now that you put it that way. Another FAA requir
120 NAV20 : Misunderstanding here, I think. As far as I know, the aeroplane on the ground had been 'shut down' for the best part of half an hour? And had no pass
121 scbriml : I don't see the grounding being lifted unless something changes. There's no way the FAA will simply change their mind if a root cause cannot be clear
122 packsonflight : This is the first of the special condition for certification of the batteries: (1) Safe cell temperatures and pressures must be maintained during any
123 ServantLeader : McNerney was named CEO by the board in late 2005, well before things started to go south. Mullaly bolted for Ford--for which has done an outstanding
124 Pugman211 : Its a shame we dont know more info about these 2 test flights. what were they testing/looking for etc. These 2 incidents have happened to in service a
125 7BOEING7 : The underlying issues that created the problems in design and manufacturing were present when the Board voted to offer the airplane for sale a year a
126 Stitch : So who should have replaced him? Mullaly was not going to leave Ford to come back.
127 ServantLeader : The board has a succession plan, they need to exercise it.
128 kanban : Some people need to look at Boeing's org chart before making absurd statements..Mullaly was never CEO.. he was President of Commercial Airplanes, a j
129 Stitch : That succession plan is in place in the event McNerney is killed or incapacitated. And that successor would continue to execute corporate policy as M
130 ServantLeader : That's a cynical view corporate governance and a low expectation of the role of the CEO. If it is as simple as executing corporate policy then why do
131 MigPilot : pot, may I introduce you to the kettle? Actually I think Boeing has already learned its lesson. The next project will be different from the "dreamlin
132 Post contains links alfablue : It's about "FAA Grounds 787, Thread 9" -- that includes management mistakes or shortcomings leading to this situation. This threat is not limited to b
133 Stitch : It appears that the 787's electrical system is designed around Li-Ion batteries so Boeing may have no choice but to continue forward with them, first
134 bradmovie : Stitch, what does it mean exactly that "the 787's electrical system is designed around Li-Ion batteries..."? How does the downstream electrical system
135 prebennorholm : Thanks, alfablue, for posting these two links. I think that your conclusion is very valid. To me this issue seems now to have been settled. At least
136 BoeingVista : I guess that we should formally recognize that the Boeing 787-800 has now been grounded for 1 month..
137 Post contains images Stitch : I don't know. The folks saying this in media reports don't say why. I'd be surprised if the battery pack was moved to the cargo bay. I would guess th
138 7BOEING7 : Folks saying that in the media are "aeronautically challenged".
139 BoeingVista : Bit of a sweeping statement that... Li-ion has different charge and discharge characteristics than Ni-cad, its just possible that the 787 systems rel
140 Post contains images lightsaber : Agree on both parts. DRs (they have other names too) are very tough. They tend to like using ex-military types who know their stuff. Already!?! Only
141 cornutt : Maybe the APU starter. Most avionics won't care; they have to convert the battery voltage to lower voltages anyway, so as long as they're getting som
142 packsonflight : This could apply to the brakes. Conventional braking system on aircrafts relay on hydraulic accumulator pressure as last resort power for the brakes
143 jox : Yesterday, I came across a guy that had a theory that is quite different from the ones I have read about here. The 787 differs from most airliners in
144 RicknRoll : Doesn't make sense to me. Besides that, the skin has to have enough conductivity to handle lightening strikes. IIRC, they have a conductive mesh embed
145 Starglider : The 787 has a current return network (CRN) in its design to address these issues. I am sure the CRN will also be part of the investigation. Best Rega
146 BoeingVista : Yes, powering the brakes is a function of the ship battery in the case of a total electrical failure.
147 mjoelnir : I do not understand this talk why it should be nearly impossible for Being to revert to nickel cadmium batteries. Apart from the circuitry directly co
148 CXB77L : My understanding from reading the many threads on this subject is that a bigger battery would require some significant structural modifications - per
149 BoeingVista : Also the problem of physically getting it through the hatch and manoeuvring a battery that would be expected to weigh 65kg, 144lbs using only human p
150 audidudi : The Qatar B788 A7-BCK at LHR has just been towed from BA Engineering Base towards T4. I don't have confirmation yet that it is on stand there, but if
151 mjoelnir : Put a box into the cargo hold to keep the batteries until you do a redesign. I have anyway the question if having the batteries in the e-bays was a g
152 Stitch : Since NiCad batteries can catch fire or leak, would having them in the cargo hold be a new risk? Also, what about worries about damage from the box b
153 PW100 : Not sure if this will fly. I would expect that NiCad also have containment and ventilation requirements. It may not be a good idea to put a high inte
154 mjoelnir : The danger from the NiCads catching fire or leaking is far lower than of lithium ion, it is comparable a rather robust design. If I talk about a box
155 cmf : Not impossible as much as not practical. The problems are space and time. Technically it can obviously be done.
156 mjoelnir : They found the space in a Cessna. Why do some think that the recertification of the lithium ion takes less time than changing the battery to known te
157 audidudi : Qatar's B788 has now been towed back to BA Enginerring Base, so no imminent ferry flight back to DOH. At least there was a little temporary excitement
158 Stitch : Not special armor, but it does have a metal containment box. And it's not susceptible to external impacts. Yes, but those runs were all designed into
159 mjoelnir : I am getting a little bit tired of the metal containment box. As a containment it did not work. In Boston it did not contain the flames, in Japan it
160 mjoelnir : Just a question, were is the battery in a B 777, 747, 767, 737 an what containment is there for the NiCad battery.
161 kanban : A metal containment box is a regulatory requirement at this time.. and probably would remain even with a battery type change. The containment did wor
162 Post contains links mjoelnir : Flammable liquid is a defined hazard. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flammable_liquid Are yo implying that the NTSB does not know what they are talking
163 mjoelnir : The "containment" for the battery was never design to contain what happened. It was not taken in account that the thermal runaway of one cell in the b
164 Kaiarahi : Spare us Wiki - please! First, it's completely irrelevant - the only definitions that apply in this context are those in the FARs (and equivalent reg
165 kanban : no I'm implying that someone has not read the volumes of posts by knowledgeable people including a fire chief before making rash statements and rehas
166 Post contains links mjoelnir : The NTSB is talking about flammable liquids. If you do not like the Wikipedia please give me another official definition of flammable liquid, the Wik
167 mjoelnir : I do not know if you work with the safety aspects of this battery or you are discussing with other interested people this aspects. Because: How do yo
168 bonusonus : I'm interested in the differences between the Tesla design of Li-ion batteries (thousands of cells, each less than 2 amp-hr), and the GS Yausa design
169 kanban : unfortunately persistence in equating the situation to what you are familiar with and to broad generalized data available on the internet does not re
170 Stitch : I would consider this highly unlikely as Yuasa makes batteries for industrial applications and I would expect that is where they drew their design fr
171 mjoelnir : Dear Kanban, Ok everybody is guessing. In my younger days I have been a volunteer fire fighter and or mountain rescue member. Today I am an engineer,
172 bonusonus : One more question. I know that reducing maintenance was a big concern about 20-30 years ago in aviation battery design. (http://www.emeraldinsight.com
173 airtechy : As far as I can remember.....after nine threads, no one has posted a diagram of either of the electronics bays that contain the batteries. Therefore,
174 Post contains images Kaiarahi : As already mentioned, read the FARs (Federal Aviation Regulations) and IATA standards, which define what is hazardous in an aviation environment. Or
175 mjoelnir : So dear Kaiarahi, something what is a hazard in normal environment, for example a factory, becomes magically not a hazard when you put it aboard an a
176 Post contains links Stitch : Nobody has been taking these events lightly. And accusations that people have been were one of the reasons why the moderators almost didn't open this
177 BoeingVista : While we should acknowledge their involvement in the industry you should acknowledge that they do not agree on a lot of this stuff. Funnily enough I
178 Post contains links mjoelnir : The fact sheet for the LFC 40 http://gsyuasa-lp.com/SpecSheets/LFC40-MSDS.pdf describes under 2. Hazardous materials: Electrolyte : Organic Solvent (
179 mjoelnir : Dear Stich, When somebody says the containment worked that already I call making light of this incidents. The containment should not allow hazardous
180 Post contains links NAV20 : This story contains some faint glimmers of hope that the 'extra containment and additional monitoring' solutions may turn out to be 'adequate' for the
181 Post contains links BEG2IAH : This question was addressed at least 20 times in the previous threads. Again, the special condition says this: http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/FR-2007-1
182 mjoelnir : And an explosion of the gaseous form of an flammable liquid would of course not damage the surrounding.
183 BEG2IAH : I don't understand your question. What explosion? Are you trying to say: 1) The containment should've kept an explosion in? or 2) An explosion is a p
184 Post contains links mjoelnir : Yes I mean an explosion. The venting is as I understand it not all the time, but to remove smoke when it occurs. The main venting is not steadily thr
185 iahmark : This seems foolish to me; why don’t Boeing develop an alternate system with Ni Cads which are known to be safe, how hard can it be? By using Ni Cad
186 kanban : Bingo... it is not available, the one you quote is different. all assumptions made from erroneous data are suspect. This is why many of us are sittin
187 Post contains links BoeingVista : Are the 787's problems PAX induced? http://blogs.crikey.com.au/planetalk...es-are-sweaty-passengers-to-blame/ The NTSB is still looking at this; at th
188 prebennorholm : The battery weight penalty will be more like 200 lbs. Current batteries 2 x 65 lbs = 130 lbs. Ni-Cads are roughly 2.5 times heavier = 325 lbs. That t
189 2175301 : Welcome to the very strange world of "hazard definition" by different departments in the government. In this case (and I do not work in the Aerospace
190 mjoelnir : You all have been guessing back and forth all this days. I had been following this thread for a while now before I started to post. When one starts p
191 BoeingVista : All of this is true..
192 antskip : Boeing needs to accept they have made a huge error of judgement with this only one of so many innovations on this revolutionary airliner, and read the
193 Post contains images BEG2IAH : When the aircraft cabin doors are closed, if venting does not occur all the time, what triggers venting in your opinion? Smell, smoke, something else
194 Post contains links blrsea : Seattle times is reporting that the interim fix is more towards containment and that Boeing will look at battery design changes in the long term . Boe
195 sweair : Maybe along with a better containment, change the charge/recharge cycle to an even more conservative one? And a very stringent temp monitor, cut the b
196 Post contains images astuteman : We're 200 posts into the NINTH thread, and "most of us are waiting?" From my seat, just about everyone posting on here is speculating, no matter what
197 PW100 : Thanks for your wonderfull contribution. I did read all the nine threads, participated at times quite actively. Your post is a most welcome reflectio
198 14ccKemiskt : It now seems as Boeings temporary solution actually will be to provide a better containment box and to vent out any smoke or gasses outside of the pla
199 packsonflight : The fact that Boeing is considering better containment system is a clear confirmation of that the containment failed or is inadequate. But I can not
200 sweair : Where have you seen Boeing being satisfied with just fixing the containment? Hey we fixed the box, burning battery is no problemo.. I don´t think B
201 14ccKemiskt : With the current failure rate, there is going to be multiple battery fires every year. Will the new containment fix be so safe that the planes wont ha
202 Kaiarahi : Please refrain from putting words in my mouth. What I said was that the FARs and equivalent regulations in other jurisdictions contain precise defini
203 BestWestern : From this thread, we are learning that the minimum time to make, test, certify and install a quick fix containment box is three months. If we assume
204 mjoelnir : That is why Boeing and the FAA did that a great job certifying this battery. And to be absolutely clear about it, the two incidents show that they go
205 JerseyFlyer : Agree. Not only do they have to design and certify a fix, they have to fit it to 50 grounded aircraft and all those built but not delivered during th
206 Kaiarahi : I doubt that any factory would be allowed to store 300,000+ litres of fuel a metre or so away from two massive turbines running at 900C degrees. So y
207 CF-CPI : Right. Given the failure rate of the batteries based on a 50-airframe fleet, as far as I am concerned, preventing the overheats and fires in the firs
208 ServantLeader : Right, I have been called names and told to go play in another sandbox by the self-proclaimed rulers of this thread for daring to criticize Boeing's
209 RickNRoll : The time frames mentioned here are what I have been expecting all along. Which is unfortunate for Boeing, but there is no way out of it. The Boeing p
210 sweair : A less agressive charge cycle, would it be doable? Staying out of the current set limits, or would that not fly with the FAA as a backup system? Longe
211 sweair : Are pneumatics that much less efficient?
212 Kaiarahi : Perhaps this could be the subject of a separate, dedicated thread if you want to pursue it. Although organizational/situational leadership is one of
213 goosebayguy : It has amazed me that the FAA found it so acceptable to have a battery catch fire so long as there was a containment system and a vent overboard for t
214 sweair : Seems this thread is mostly not about batteries, where do I ask my questions?
215 7BOEING7 : This has absolutely nothing to do with pneumatics has been pointed out in a multitude of replys. If the 787 was a pneumatic airplane it still would h
216 Stitch : NiCad and Lead Acid batteries can also catch fire, hence they also are required to have containment systems and the ability for any escaping gases to
217 sweair : That post must have been moved here, I asked that in another thread. My question was about changing the charging cycle as a temporary solution, a slo
218 Revelation : I don't get this part of the ST article in #194 above: It seems to me our more expert contributors here have told us the loads seen by 787 and other t
219 Sassiciai : This is thread 9 on the topic, and it's almost 99% devoted from the start of Thread 1 to amateur speculation about batteries, speculation that just go
220 ServantLeader : I did, one call a crisis in leadership -- I was called a troll and a freshman MBA student for my troubles and the mods shut it down because it was to
221 CF-CPI : I am not alarmist, but to be honest, if I'm in a building and there is a reasonable chance of a fire starting, due to some cause which is not underst
222 bonusonus : I've seen all sorts of numbers for this. Where did the 2.5 times heavier value come from? I have an MIT paper showing that Li-ion has a specific ener
223 14ccKemiskt : I guess you mean the ANA pilot? What I wondered was that, if the fix - albeit temporary - is of the "better containment" type, will any new battery f
224 Stitch : I would imagine that will depend on each airline's operational considerations and the Pilot in Command's opinion. Boeing will show that the container
225 Post contains links 777ER : FAA Grounds 787, Part 10 (by 777ER Feb 17 2013 in Civil Aviation)
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