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Will JAL Return To Its Former Glory?  
User currently offlineUnited Airline From Hong Kong, joined Jan 2001, 9210 posts, RR: 15
Posted (1 year 10 months 1 week 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 8846 times:

It was a super giant/market leader in the past with the largest B 747 fleet making lots of money. It went bankrupted earlier.

How are they doing now? Are they making money?

Wonder if they will ever return to their former glory and perhaps order the B 747-8/A 380?

23 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlinePHX787 From Japan, joined Mar 2012, 7959 posts, RR: 19
Reply 1, posted (1 year 10 months 1 week 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 8787 times:

I doubt JL will ever order anything large anytime soon. Starflyer ordering the A380 was quite a surprise but it serves these high density routes.

Now JL is served perfectly well with the 77Ws and I expect that to continue to be the case, especially with the 787s getting back on line.

For FY2013Q3 (Japanese fiscal years are strange) The total revenue was +5.7%.

According to my contacts, customers such as themselves have been quite happy with the changes JL has made in the past few years.

It's a new era for them, but they're going to be quite healthy competing with NH.

I personally think the merger with Japan Air System probably had some kinks but looks like it worked itself out.

here's their site for the earnings:
http://www.jal.com/en/investor/event/results_briefing/



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User currently offlineMaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 17821 posts, RR: 46
Reply 2, posted (1 year 10 months 1 week 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 8778 times:

Quoting United Airline (Thread starter):

Wonder if they will ever return to their former glory and perhaps order the B 747-8/A 380?

They're more likley to get smaller, as growing competition pressures yield and capacity going forward.



E pur si muove -Galileo
User currently offlineUnited Airline From Hong Kong, joined Jan 2001, 9210 posts, RR: 15
Reply 3, posted (1 year 10 months 1 week 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 8639 times:

Wonder if they will grow again. They have downsized quite a lot.

Why did they retire the B 747-400s so soon?

And why did they go bankrupt?


User currently offlinePHX787 From Japan, joined Mar 2012, 7959 posts, RR: 19
Reply 4, posted (1 year 10 months 1 week 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 8504 times:

Quoting United Airline (Reply 3):
And why did they go bankrupt?

Huge cost issues, major customer service lapses, and labor issues.
Here's an interesting article about the man brought in to lead JL during B.K. He himself said he never wanted to fly JL because of the absolutely poor product they offered.
http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/...airlines-ipo-idUSBRE88H1AP20120918
Because of AA's issues as well, during B.K. JL was considering partnering with DL and Sky Team.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japan_Airlines#Bankruptcy

Mismanagement also led to bk

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/01/20/business/global/20jal.html?_r=0

Looks like B.K. brought JL 'back' to prominence and they're able to be competitive again.
http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/...airlines-ipo-idUSBRE88H1AP20120918

In my scrapbook from my trip to Barcelona I have a photo of a tail of the JL 744....indeed a majestic sight indeed. If this thread is still up in a few weeks after I get back to Ohio before my move to Japan, I'll upload it here.



Follow me on twitter: www.twitter.com/phx787
User currently offlineQANTASvJet From United Kingdom, joined Sep 2012, 81 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (1 year 10 months 1 week 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 8404 times:

Long history of poor management, a useful wake up call during bankruptcy, but now vulnerable to loss of market due to low cost carriers. Did have a really cool livery for a while, though

User currently offline817Dreamliiner From Montserrat, joined Jul 2008, 2593 posts, RR: 2
Reply 6, posted (1 year 10 months 1 week 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 8311 times:

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 1):
Starflyer ordering the A380

Get your facts right... Its Skymark not Starflyer....



Reality be Rent. Synapse, break! Vanishment, This World!
User currently offlinePHX787 From Japan, joined Mar 2012, 7959 posts, RR: 19
Reply 7, posted (1 year 10 months 1 week 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 8267 times:

Quoting 817Dreamliiner (Reply 6):
Get your facts right... Its Skymark not Starflyer....

Damn it i meant to write Skymark    stupid lack of sleep!



Follow me on twitter: www.twitter.com/phx787
User currently offlinefactsonly From Montserrat, joined Aug 2012, 1002 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (1 year 10 months 1 week 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 8186 times:

As JAL entered bankruptcy, the airline cut its fleet and vacated a number of long-haul routes. Today the airline has elected not return to former destinations, but to open new ones like BOS, HEL and SAN.

As a result competing airlines have jumped into the gap that JAL's departure has left behind, making a return to these vacated destinations especially difficult for JAL.

An example of this is KLM. The Dutch airline will operate AMS-Japan-AMS 21x/week in Summer 2013 (NRT 11x, KIX 7x, FUK 3x/week), while in former JAL days KLM operated 14x (NRT 7x, KIX 7x) and JAL operated 7x/week NRT-AMS.


User currently offlineairbuseric From Netherlands, joined Jan 2005, 4277 posts, RR: 51
Reply 9, posted (1 year 10 months 1 week 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 8003 times:

Quoting factsonly (Reply 8):
As a result competing airlines have jumped into the gap that JAL's departure has left behind, making a return to these vacated destinations especially difficult for JAL.

An example of this is KLM. The Dutch airline will operate AMS-Japan-AMS 21x/week in Summer 2013 (NRT 11x, KIX 7x, FUK 3x/week), while in former JAL days KLM operated 14x (NRT 7x, KIX 7x) and JAL operated 7x/week NRT-AMS.

And especially THIS destination in the former JAL network didn't have to close for financial reasons. AMS was making money for the airline, and also was JL's biggest European cargo hub till the airline decided to close down the 'cargo' business and get rid of the full freighters.
Of course, AMS didn't fit in the oneworld network. A logical decision. But, customers are still sad that JAL left this market. A huge amount of complaints where send from Japanese businesses in The Netherlands to the Japanese embassy trying to keep the route alive and running. AMS was favourable airport for the Japanese traveller to transit through, and JL in AMS had the best performance ratio with ontime departures, lowest amount of mis connections, lowest amount of lost bags of all stations in Europe.

In the end even the 77W was becoming a regular sight in AMS, but overall the 787 was maybe the best suitable aircraft for JAL on this route, it came a bit too late. Without any doubt it still is a huge loss for the customer, JAL's product is ahead of KLM's and that is what many Japanese people regret these days.

The closure of the NRT-AMS route was a pure political based decision.

DME had better be closed at that time, with huge losses on their flights. Almost no cargo revenue on the flights, and never full in the passenger cabin... But politics are also here a major factor  



"The whole world steps aside for the man who knows where he is going"
User currently offlinePe@rson From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2001, 19258 posts, RR: 52
Reply 10, posted (1 year 10 months 1 week 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 7794 times:

Quoting United Airline (Thread starter):
It was a super giant/market leader in the past with the largest B 747 fleet making lots of money. It went bankrupted earlier.

Who cares where it operates or the fleet it utilises or the size of its fleet/sub-fleet so long as it is profitable? That will drive the 'new' JL.



"Everyone writing for the Telegraph knows that the way to grab eyeballs is with Ryanair and/or sex."
User currently offlinejfk777 From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 8494 posts, RR: 6
Reply 11, posted (1 year 10 months 1 week 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 7426 times:
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JAL will never be the same as its "former glory", it was for lack of a better comparison the Pan AM of Asia. In 1970 it was teh biggest most powerful airline in Asia with its first 747's. At the time Cathay and Singapore were 707 operators with regional flights and few outside of Asia. Korean Air was very small. CAAC in China still didn't fly much outside their country. ANA was still a purely domestic airline. All the airlines in Asia have grown up to be serious JAL competitors.

The "new" JAL can still be a proud airline for its country, its should live for the future and not the past. Being the biggest 747 airline is a dubious claim, as it has turned out for JAL and Pan AM.


User currently offlinena From Germany, joined Dec 1999, 10816 posts, RR: 9
Reply 12, posted (1 year 10 months 1 week 3 days ago) and read 6699 times:

Japan is in economical trouble since a long time, which limits expansion, also without the A380 or 748I its virtually impossible to regain its former glory. Even if I go to Japan I wouldnt think a second about going with JAL (or ANA).

User currently offlineCXB77L From Australia, joined Feb 2009, 2693 posts, RR: 5
Reply 13, posted (1 year 10 months 1 week 3 days ago) and read 6566 times:
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Quoting United Airline (Thread starter):
Wonder if they will ever return to their former glory and perhaps order the B 747-8/A 380?

What does one have to do with the other? Too many people confuse airline stability and profitability with their fleet profile. One has nothing to do with another. An airline can be profitable while operating older, fully paid for aircraft, while another could be ordering new planes it does not need and cannot afford.

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 1):
Now JL is served perfectly well with the 77Ws and I expect that to continue to be the case, especially with the 787s getting back on line.

  

Precisely. Now that JL are out of bankruptcy they seem to be doing reasonably well to recover from that. I also don't think they'll make any big orders in the near future.



Boeing 777 fanboy
User currently offlinexaapb From Mexico, joined Jan 2005, 447 posts, RR: 5
Reply 14, posted (1 year 10 months 1 week 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 6270 times:

Could we see JAL operating back to MEX using it's 787? Maybe they can try NRT-MEX-YVR-MEX (in case the 787 can't make it non stop from MEX to NRT.

Greetings.



Jorge Meneses
User currently offlineSANFan From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 5592 posts, RR: 12
Reply 15, posted (1 year 10 months 1 week 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 5518 times:

It's all about perspective. Many people in the San Diego community -- and I would guess Boston as well -- are very happy with the course that JAL is following now! This is certainly a different Japan Air Lines than in the past but we like the present iteration of the company and hope they can maintain a solid and successful operation in today's business environment, no matter how their size and scope compare to the past.

Most airlines -- those that remain! -- are very different than they were 20 years ago; heck, make that 10 years ago! JAL is no exception. Isn't it all about making your business fit into the current world's markets and circumstances? In another 15 years, who knows how today's businesses will have changed again?

bb


User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 25983 posts, RR: 22
Reply 16, posted (1 year 10 months 1 week 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 3816 times:

Quoting United Airline (Reply 3):
Why did they retire the B 747-400s so soon?

And why did they go bankrupt?

One big reason for their bankruptcy was the fact that they had too many 747s. That required them to focus too much on low-yield Japanese tour groups to fill them rather than carrying fewer passengers at higher fares. I think the new management has learned that lesson which is why JL, once the largest 747 operator, now has none.


User currently offline777way From Pakistan, joined Dec 2005, 6047 posts, RR: 4
Reply 17, posted (1 year 10 months 1 week 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 3020 times:

Quoting na (Reply 12):
also without the A380 or 748I its virtually impossible to regain its former glory

Why not? IMO all they need is a better rebranding and they're as good as they were back in the day, a high class airline with a new perspective.


User currently offlineUnited Airline From Hong Kong, joined Jan 2001, 9210 posts, RR: 15
Reply 18, posted (1 year 10 months 1 week 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 2568 times:

How is ANA doing? Are they making money?

User currently offlinecarpethead From Japan, joined Aug 2004, 2977 posts, RR: 3
Reply 19, posted (1 year 10 months 1 week 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 2397 times:

How do you define 'glory days'?
By profits, revenue, number of 748 or A380 it operates, or number of exotic or non-exotic destinations.

Frankly in the current economic environment, to acquire a large number of 748/380s would be sheer folly.
If Tokyo and its two airports get their act together and makes available enough slots, JAL can connect many dots accross the Pacific and truly become the trans-Pacific gateway to Asia because of its strategic location. So if there's a chance that JAL stay course with a growing (but boring) number of 777/787 mix, that's alright with me.

Quoting United Airline (Reply 18):

ANA isn't doing too bad. Profits and revenue are up. All would be much better if the 787 were safely flying.


User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 26128 posts, RR: 50
Reply 20, posted (1 year 10 months 1 week 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 2309 times:

Keep in mind the new slimmed down JAL also is focusing away on international hub transfer traffic and instead more on its native Japan home market O&D.

With shift to smaller capacity planes, and along with movement of international flying away from NRT to HND, JL is setting itself up to be focused on its home market needs.

Time will tell if this is the right model. Seemingly, ANA is going the other way growing its capacity, network and international transfer flow.



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlinecargolex From United States of America, joined Apr 2010, 1278 posts, RR: 8
Reply 21, posted (1 year 10 months 1 week 2 days ago) and read 2222 times:

1.

Quoting United Airline (Thread starter):

Wonder if they will ever return to their former glory and perhaps order the B 747-8/A 380?

2.

Quoting na (Reply 12):
Japan is in economical trouble since a long time,

3.

Quoting 777way (Reply 17):

Why not? IMO all they need is a better rebranding and they're as good as they were back in the day, a high class airline with a new perspective.

1. No, although it doesn't necessarily mean they won't order a VLA in the future.

2. Yes, and that's a big factor in terms of "former glory."

3. No, because it's about more than branding.

JAL's "glory days" were the 1960s and moreso the 1970s and 1980s. Those decades were marked by a meteoric rise in Japan's profile as a world economy and a center of business, technology, and culture. Japan's economic ascension helped state-owned JAL become, as some have said already, a kind of Asian Pan-Am. JAL's glory days, so to speak, were glorious because Japan itself was ascendent at the time. You may hear people today talk about the rise of China and how economically powerful China has become. In 1983, you could hear the very same things being said about Japan and to a lesser extent prior to the 1997 Asian financial crisis, about the "four Asian Tigers" (Singapore, Hong Kong, Taiwan, and South Korea).

Much of JAL's 747 fleet was bought during the 1970s and 1980s, when Japan's economy was growing at 4-5% a year. In the 1960s, Japan was a place where goods were manufacture cheaply and exported in huge quantities - the first breakthrough phase of the post-ww2 Japanese economic miracle. In the 1970s, Japanese manufacturing and design was turning out more home-grown and more and more sophisticated products - particularly automobiles - which moved the export economy even further and helped establish many Japanese firms that are now household names - Sony, Toyota, Honda, NEC, Toshiba - as world leaders or at least major players in their fields. In the 1980s, the financial sector in Japan boomed as a result of all the capital on hand from all this exporting. In that decade, home-grown consumption began to keep pace with export demand, which continued the strong growth with internal consumer demand as well as strong exports. Eventually, the economy heated up into a speculative bubble (not directly related to exporting goods but tangential to it), and the whole thing came crashing down.

But by 1993, JAL's competition was catching up and Japan was in recession - and has continued to stagnate economically ever since even though it is still a huge economy and a technological leader. JAL lost the umbrella of state protection and long-haul monopoly in the 1980s, leaving it further vulnerable to an increasingly large field that now encompasses vastly improved carriers like KE and CI, newer entrants like BR and OZ, traditional competitors that got larger and better like CX and SQ, and the wave of PRC carriers.

JAL's 1980s glory days and massive 747 fleet are fun to think about - just like Braniff's or Pan-Am's, but they're long gone and that model of business doesn't fit with the conditions of the market today in JAL's situation.

JAL needs to aim for new glory days and not chase the past, because time has moved on. Post bankruptcy, it seems like more rational and efficient decisions are the order of they day and that seems to be working for JAL. That isn't to say that JAL won't or shouldn't order a plane like the 747-8i if it makes sense for them - but for now, I don't think they would feel that investment was necessary or prudent - and better that they survive that way than go out of business by chasing the past.


User currently offline777way From Pakistan, joined Dec 2005, 6047 posts, RR: 4
Reply 22, posted (1 year 10 months 1 week 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 2127 times:

The thing is JL branding was just fine as it was, they changed it unecessarily, when they could have focussed on other stuff.

User currently offlineAADC10 From United States of America, joined Nov 2004, 2103 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (1 year 10 months 1 week 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 2019 times:

JAL will never be what it was. The Japanese economy has been stalled for over 20 years after the bubble burst. JAL rode the bubble up after it was privatized and then was overextended and did not know what to do when the economy declined beneath them. All of those 747s became a liability as Japan's economic importance declined. The smaller and more nimble ANA caught up to them.

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