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Hawaiian Service To JFK  
User currently offlinebrilondon From Canada, joined Aug 2005, 4216 posts, RR: 1
Posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 9981 times:

I was wondering how the loads are for HA's flight to JFK from HNL.


Rush for ever; Yankees all the way!!
37 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineHAL From United States of America, joined Jan 2002, 2560 posts, RR: 53
Reply 1, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 9810 times:

It depends on the day - some days are full, some not quite as full. Generally though, most seats are filled.

HAL



One smooth landing is skill. Two in a row is luck. Three in a row and someone is lying.
User currently offlinePHX787 From Japan, joined Mar 2012, 7474 posts, RR: 18
Reply 2, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 9617 times:

If I'm not mistaken, this is the longest non-stop domestic flight in the US?

Also, what are the nature of the pax on this flight: Are they business travelers, leisure, connecting onward to Asia?



次は、渋谷、渋谷。出口は、右側です。電車とホームの間は広く開いておりますので、足元に注意下さい。
User currently offlineFoxBravo From United States of America, joined Nov 2003, 2996 posts, RR: 4
Reply 3, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 9485 times:

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 2):

Yes. It's just slightly longer than UA's EWR-HNL and IAD-HNL.

I would imagine mostly leisure pax bound for Hawaii. The JFK-HNL flights aren't well timed for onward connections except within the islands.



Common sense is not so common. -Voltaire
User currently offlineIrishAyes From United States of America, joined Jan 2008, 2183 posts, RR: 15
Reply 4, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 9304 times:

It's tough to say. I personally don't feel compelled to paint a big rosy picture on this one because even though its a seemingly high-profile route that I'm sure has no problem filling seats, the reality is market conditions are tough and HA suffered from a USD3.4 million loss for the last three months of 2012 compared to a $21 million profit from the period prior.

I'm sure much of that had to deal with the mixed-results of the inter-island expansion and the fact that HA leans largely on its Japanese market within its long-haul network (which is suffering from the weak yen) but the US mainland-Hawaii flights have also experienced a rise in capacity coupled with a double-digit drop in unit revenues. I wouldn't be surprised if the pricing environment is relatively weak, which probably means the route is taking a hit on yields given the long stage length of the flight.

At any rate, I give it a 50-50 shot for long term survival. The market conditions are harsh and HA has embarked on some very ambitious long-term growth plans, many of which face uphill battles in this current revenue environment, so unless things change, glamor routes like this one will be the first to get the axe.



next flights: jfk-icn, icn-hkg-bkk-cdg, cdg-phl-msp
User currently offlineSean-SAN- From United States of America, joined Aug 2002, 769 posts, RR: 1
Reply 5, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 8998 times:

I've heard this route does well on cargo... I'm guessing seafood etc going to NYC and random stuff going back.

User currently offlineklwright69 From Saudi Arabia, joined Jan 2000, 2028 posts, RR: 3
Reply 6, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 7815 times:

Is UA still doing well on the route with HA competing?

User currently offlinejayhup From United States of America, joined Jan 2002, 452 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 7351 times:

I've taken this flight about once a month since it started and can tell you that the loads have been pretty good.

While the majority of the pax appear to be leisure travelers I have spoken to a few people who were traveling for business.

I spoke to one guy who was connecting on to MNL even though he had to spend a night in HNL.

Even though the flights have been fairly full the yields have been low. I booked a roundtrip this past December for $420 so it's hard to see HA making big bucks on this route.

JH


User currently offlinebambicruz From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 294 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 6982 times:

Just came back from Hawaii and both ways there was not a single empty seat (including first and Biz)

-B



F*** Me Im Famous!
User currently offlinetoobz From Finland, joined Jan 2010, 781 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 6919 times:

First and Biz??? I've never been on a HA flight with Biz..

User currently offlinejfklganyc From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 3448 posts, RR: 5
Reply 10, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 6833 times:

Quoting IrishAyes (Reply 4):
At any rate, I give it a 50-50 shot for long term survival.

Barring something bad happening that brings the whole industry to its knees (again) They are committed to this route.

It is very high profile and is consistently full.

I can't tell you what a big deal this is in Hawaii...non stop to NYC.

And on the other side, everyone I know that has gone to Hawaii in the last several months has been on this flight. That tells me 2 things:

1. The fares are resonable to the leisure traveller. Meaning the yields are low
2. The EWR flight was never in the equation. They are capturing people that want to leave from NYC that never considered EWR on CO now UA


User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 25168 posts, RR: 48
Reply 11, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 6833 times:

Some DOT numbers are available.

Load factor:

HNL-JFK
2012Q2 - 88.3
2013Q3 - 88.6

JFK-HNL
2012Q2 - 90.7
2013Q3 - 85.6

The yield however is not very inspiring when the 5000 mile distance are considered. Only about 7.1 cents/mile.



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlinecatiii From United States of America, joined Mar 2008, 3029 posts, RR: 4
Reply 12, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 5476 times:

Quoting HAL (Reply 1):
It depends on the day - some days are full, some not quite as full. Generally though, most seats are filled.

HAL

Pretty good yields?

Quoting IrishAyes (Reply 4):
At any rate, I give it a 50-50 shot for long term survival. The market conditions are harsh and HA has embarked on some very ambitious long-term growth plans, many of which face uphill battles in this current revenue environment, so unless things change, glamor routes like this one will be the first to get the axe.

I thought B6 was codesharing with them on this and feeding the flight? Makes it much more likely to succeed if they have feed coming in as well as capturing O/D.


User currently offlineIrishAyes From United States of America, joined Jan 2008, 2183 posts, RR: 15
Reply 13, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 5282 times:

Quoting jfklganyc (Reply 10):
It is very high profile and is consistently full.

I know. People constantly point this out and I think this has been well established, but nobody seems to know the answer to the yields question which is far more important to address. It's silly for people to keep posting these threads because they usually amount to nothing and the valuable information is never provided.



next flights: jfk-icn, icn-hkg-bkk-cdg, cdg-phl-msp
User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 25170 posts, RR: 22
Reply 14, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 5036 times:

Quoting bambicruz (Reply 8):
Just came back from Hawaii and both ways there was not a single empty seat (including first)

As is often the case on routes with little or no business traffic demand, many passengers in F are probably frequent flyer redemption bookings (or non-rev employees). The fact that F is full on routes like that doesn't mean they're getting high yield passengers. Often it means the opposite. It's the same on routes like Europe-BKK where premium cabins are often full but rarely with many passengers paying the applicable fare.


User currently offlinecatiii From United States of America, joined Mar 2008, 3029 posts, RR: 4
Reply 15, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 4960 times:

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 14):
many passengers in F are probably frequent flyer redemption bookings (or non-rev employees).

As the husband of a flight attendant, I had to chuckle at this. We've never gotten F non-revving to Hawaii. In fact, we often have no luck in Y either.


User currently offlinetoobz From Finland, joined Jan 2010, 781 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 4787 times:

cat..I'm with you. It's been years since I've gotten F to HNL other than from NRT once last year (well Bizelite). F does well considering DL does not do complimentary upgrades to F even from the mainland.

User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 25170 posts, RR: 22
Reply 17, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 4767 times:

Quoting toobz (Reply 16):
cat..I'm with you. It's been years since I've gotten F to HNL other than from NRT once last year (well Bizelite). F does well considering DL does not do complimentary upgrades to F even from the mainland.

But how many of those passengers are frequent flyer redemption bookings? I expect a high percentage on all Hawaii routes.


User currently offlinemah4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 32736 posts, RR: 72
Reply 18, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 4754 times:

The F product is absolutely unacceptable for a flight of this distance, regardless of the fact it's Hawai'i. I hope HA takes a serious look at a legitimate long-haul product, now that it has an expanding long-haul network.


a.
User currently offlineIrishAyes From United States of America, joined Jan 2008, 2183 posts, RR: 15
Reply 19, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 4727 times:

Quoting mah4546 (Reply 18):
The F product is absolutely unacceptable for a flight of this distance, regardless of the fact it's Hawai'i. I hope HA takes a serious look at a legitimate long-haul product, now that it has an expanding long-haul network.

Seriously. I just read a report in the TR forums on the F product and was pretty shocked at how unimpressive it looks. The seats almost look like US Domestic F. Kind of disappointing for an airline that is usually acclaimed to offer the best all-around service on US-Hawaii flights (i.e. complimentary meals in Y cabin, etc).



next flights: jfk-icn, icn-hkg-bkk-cdg, cdg-phl-msp
User currently offlinemah4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 32736 posts, RR: 72
Reply 20, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 4691 times:

Quoting IrishAyes (Reply 19):
Seriously. I just read a report in the TR forums on the F product and was pretty shocked at how unimpressive it looks. The seats almost look like US Domestic F. Kind of disappointing for an airline that is usually acclaimed to offer the best all-around service on US-Hawaii flights (i.e. complimentary meals in Y cabin, etc).

It's fine for a 4-5 hour flight from the West Coast, but HNLSYD is about the length of MIASVO! AA/DL use long-haul products from DFW/ORD/ATL. I know UA does from EWR, but not sure about IAD/ORD/IAH.



a.
User currently offline9w748capt From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 580 posts, RR: 1
Reply 21, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 4584 times:

Does AA place their code on this flight? Meh - too lazy to look it up myself. Might have to swing a mileage run if those fares keep up...

User currently onlineRoseflyer From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 9612 posts, RR: 52
Reply 22, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 4568 times:

Quoting Sean-SAN- (Reply 5):


I've heard this route does well on cargo... I'm guessing seafood etc going to NYC and random stuff going back.

Outside of Alaska, Hawaii is the best cargo market in the US. It's usually items flying into Hawaii and not the other way. However it is still a small market. UA is the cargo leader to the Hawaiian islands, and UA averages only about 2% of its revenue from cargo on domestic operations. Hawaii is better than the rest of the US, but still you are looking at under 5% of the total revenue. The route is justified on passenger demand. UA for example earns more from buy on board sales than cargo.

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 14):
As is often the case on routes with little or no business traffic demand, many passengers in F are probably frequent flyer redemption bookings (or non-rev employees). The fact that F is full on routes like that doesn't mean they're getting high yield passengers. Often it means the opposite. It's the same on routes like Europe-BKK where premium cabins are often full but rarely with many passengers paying the applicable fare.

Hawaiian only has 18 first class seats on their A330s and 767s. That is a small enough cabin to fill on revenue.

I agree with the logic when you are talking about AA, UA or DL with their widebodies to HNL, but with only 18 seats, HA can fill those with revenue F paying passengers since there is a market for 5 star resorts.



If you have never designed an airplane part before, let the real designers do the work!
User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 25170 posts, RR: 22
Reply 23, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 4529 times:

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 11):
The yield however is not very inspiring when the 5000 mile distance are considered. Only about 7.1 cents/mile.

Checked half a dozen random dates in March on the ITAsoftware site and for nonstop service UA from EWR was lower in most cases than HA from JFK, sometimes by more than $100 (HA was the lowest in one example). Some fares seem extremely low for such a longhaul route.

For example, for a midweek round trip (Tuesday both ways) outbound March 5 and return March 12, UA has a $415 fare including taxes, meaning UA only keeps $362 for almost 10,000 miles of travel, or a yield of 3.6 cents/mile. HA's lowest fare for the same dates was $556 (5 cents/mile after tax).


User currently offlineIrishAyes From United States of America, joined Jan 2008, 2183 posts, RR: 15
Reply 24, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 4515 times:

Quoting mah4546 (Reply 20):
I know UA does from EWR, but not sure about IAD/ORD/IAH.

UA uses their domestic 777s on their Hawaii routes from ORD, GUM and SFO to HNL/KOA/OGG, etc. and there are no lie-flats (recliner only) on these frames, which is why elites are UDU/CPU-eligible.

If there is a lie-flat seat on the Hawaii flight, such as on the PMCO 764s used from SFO, IAD, EWR and IAH, there are no free upgrades other than using certificates or miles because the hard product is obviously superior.



next flights: jfk-icn, icn-hkg-bkk-cdg, cdg-phl-msp
25 toobz : Viscount.. totally. Yes the front cabin has a lot of mileage redemptions absolutely. And I also agree the product is pretty mediocre on HA. Like MAH s
26 brilondon : Yeah, no airline has "first and biz" to Hawaii due to the large number of leisure passengers on those flights, I always enjoy talking with people who
27 koruman : You obviously don't share my misfortunae in being a member of Hawaiian's frequent flyer program. Basically, Hawaiian sell their First Class seats at
28 PassedV1 : I'm an ignorant ops guy...what kind of yield would be good, great, so-so, bad, ugly. Where would 7.1 fall? Also is this 7.1 number Revenue or Profit?
29 planespotting : 7.1 is revenue cents per seat per mile - the route is 4,983 miles, so 4,983 x .071 = $353.79 of revenue per seat per flight. With an average load fac
30 cschleic : A colleague of mine took this flight JFK - HNL within just the last couple of days. For someone living in the NY area, for him the non-stop flight was
31 LAXintl : According to Hawaiian DOT Form-41 they say their A332 block hour cost averages about $3,900 per block hour excluding fuel. Average fuel consumption is
32 cschleic : How much cargo on top of that can they take?
33 TWA772LR : If flying to the islands from IAH you're better off going through LAX. Believe me...
34 Mikey86 : Judging by the availability its all over the place. I had a look at some of the flights HNL-JFK and it was full on some days in Y with only J class an
35 Post contains images Schweigend : A pity. I want HA to succeed at this. Once the route is more established, they may be able to get an average $830 RT fare...but then they'll just be
36 Post contains images TWA772LR : My bad! My brain has been fried from all of the studying I've been doing lately! I was talking about how the flights are always jam-packed full of pe
37 Schweigend : I understand now -- thanks! Connecting to Hawaii via LAX is often easier for nonrevs...I've done it. Houston flights do always seem to be packed.
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