kaitak From Ireland, joined Aug 1999, 11948 posts, RR: 37 Reply 1, posted (3 months 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 8244 times:
A very welcome development, but FR has said it will appeal. (It's always appealing, but only in a legal sense).
The decision to appeal is probably doomed from the start (it's hard to know on what grounds this will be - or on what grounds FR thinks it can appeal - since the full ruling of the Competition Commissioner's office has not been issued), but it adds more uncertainty to EI's position.
The next big milestone on the horizon will be the British OFT's ruling on FR's stake in EI; it would be a major blow to FR if the OFT were to rule against it.
Of course, FR is bleating that it met all of the concerns raised by the Competition office, but really ... Flybe? An airline that is having enough problems of its own, keeping its head above water? And still the fundamental issue ... FR controlling access to Irish airports and all of the ramifications of that - effectively holding the state to ransom. It just doesn't bear thinking about.
PlymSpotter From Spain, joined Jun 2004, 11108 posts, RR: 63 Reply 2, posted (3 months 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 8131 times:
Thank God for that, it would have been a disaster for Ireland. Unless they bring highly compelling new evidence to the appeal, which I can't see them being able to do, it is futile. My next question, what will FR ultimately do with their shareholding - keep to try again in a few years or sell?
ju068 From Serbia, joined Aug 2009, 2579 posts, RR: 6 Reply 3, posted (3 months 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 8063 times:
I do not see why Ryanair is complaining so much... why should the European Union or the Irish government approve the sale when Aer Lingus managed to reorganize itself and report profits. There are simply no good arguments for the approval which would lead to the loss of competitiveness within the Irish aviation market.
It would make sense for them to change their mind when it comes to Greece as both Olympic and Aegean are loss making carriers. This is obviously not the case in Ireland.
ju068 From Serbia, joined Aug 2009, 2579 posts, RR: 6 Reply 6, posted (3 months 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 7756 times:
Could it also have something to do with the European Union and the Irish government protecting DUB? Ryanair is famous for completely withdrawing from a market if it doesn't get what it wants. Naturally I know that they would not withdraw fully but they surely could blackmail them and demand considerable reduction in fees.
tugger From United States of America, joined Apr 2006, 4629 posts, RR: 7 Reply 8, posted (3 months 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 7725 times:
Quoting kaitak (Reply 1): The decision to appeal is probably doomed from the start
Honestly, I don't think FR actually though it would be able to buy EI, which would essentially give it control over the Irish flying market.
But the off chance that it could possibly happen, along with the with the free advertizing it would get from trying it is worth every penny it has spent on the process. And it is not even really negative like they often in the news for, it is just an industry action. Pretty favorable publicity for FR.
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. -W. Shatner
PlymSpotter From Spain, joined Jun 2004, 11108 posts, RR: 63 Reply 12, posted (3 months 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 7311 times:
Quoting KL911 (Reply 15): Governments should stop being involved in private business deals.
No that is part of what government is there for - to protect the consumer's best interest and the best interest of the country. That is what has been carried out here, otherwise the market would have been anything other than open.
OA260 From Ireland, joined Nov 2006, 24873 posts, RR: 60 Reply 13, posted (3 months 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 7311 times:
Quoting KL911 (Reply 15): Sad..... I am all for open markets and free trading. So what if a company wants to buy another? Happens all the time. Governments should stop being involved in private business deals.
When its to the detriment of the country you certainly do need intervention. I'm all for open markets and free trading that's why this decision is justified ! It would be a monopoly and an unfair one at that should this have been allowed to go ahead. There is a balance between both IMHO. Not just because it FR but to any similar monopoly.
OLYMPIC AIR - ΟΛΥΜΠΙΑΚΗ "Η ΕΛΛΑΔΑ ΨΗΛΑ" "GREECE FLYING HIGH"
AeroWesty From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 18800 posts, RR: 64 Reply 14, posted (3 months 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 7256 times:
Quoting EIDL (Reply 4): even having FR as a shareholder of that scale is a major problem for EI.
FR seems to own almost 30% of EI's stock, but I couldn't locate how that effects the makeup of the Board of Directors. Does anyone know where there's a breakdown by affiliation? Ireland's government seems to still own about 25% of the stock as well.
EagleBoy From Niue, joined Dec 2009, 1612 posts, RR: 2 Reply 15, posted (3 months 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 7105 times:
Quoting KL911 (Reply 15): So what if a company wants to buy another? Happens all the time. Governments should stop being involved in private business deals.
Yes, if its a private business deal. This is not private as it affects millions of air travellers and it reflects their desire to have choice in their travel rather than experience a FR monopoly.
And this is not the same as the BA/Bmi merger where Bmi allowed themselves to be bought, in this case EI do not want the advances of FR, at any price.
Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 19): FR seems to own almost 30% of EI's stock, but I couldn't locate how that effects the makeup of the Board of Directors. Does anyone know where there's a breakdown by affiliation? Ireland's government seems to still own about 25% of the stock as well.
FR own 29%, Irish Govt own 25%, EY own 3%, EI pilots own 3%, an Irish businessman named Denis O'Brian owns another 3%, 15% was gifte to staff when EI floated,no idea how much of this is still in staff hands. All in all only approx 40% of EI shares are free floating on that stock market. Most of the above have indicated that they will not sell to FR or mean to hold onto their stock.
kaitak From Ireland, joined Aug 1999, 11948 posts, RR: 37 Reply 16, posted (3 months 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 7085 times:
Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 19):
FR seems to own almost 30% of EI's stock, but I couldn't locate how that effects the makeup of the Board of Directors
FR has no representatives on the EI board - for reasons I can't explain or understand.
Quoting OA260 (Reply 18): Not just because it FR but to any similar monopoly.
I agree, but given FR's record and the manner in which it has attempted to influence govt policy on aviation (and I use that phrase advisedly, since the Irish govt has never had much interest in aviation policy), it can be seen as very likely that it would attempt to use its dominant position to seek concessions and policy changes which would not be in anyone else's interests apart from FR's.
FR is alleging that government influence led to the decision, but that seems to ignore the weakness of its case and the glaring fact that if FR did buy out EI, it would control nearly 80% of traffic to Ireland and given its record (for example, the way it saw off U2), it would act in a predatory manner.
AeroWesty From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 18800 posts, RR: 64 Reply 17, posted (3 months 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 6984 times:
Quoting EagleBoy (Reply 20): Most of the above have indicated that they will not sell to FR or mean to hold onto their stock.
Quoting kaitak (Reply 21): FR has no representatives on the EI board - for reasons I can't explain or understand.
Thanks to you both for the info. I guess I'm used to a system where even 5% will cause rogue investors to begin talking about sitting on the BoD. Perhaps there's some anti-trust types of issues, but I'm truly not versed in EU or Irish securities regulations, so that's just a guess on my part.
pvjin From Finland, joined Mar 2012, 535 posts, RR: 0 Reply 18, posted (3 months 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 6203 times:
Quoting KL911 (Reply 15):
Sad..... I am all for open markets and free trading. So what if a company wants to buy another? Happens all the time. Governments should stop being involved in private business deals.
Yeah we would absolutely love world full of mega airlines crushing all new businesses down and thus decreasing competition & making things worse for the customer as such airlines would have total monopoly in many airports which in practice would mean increase in ticket prices.
finnishway From Finland, joined Jul 2012, 187 posts, RR: 0 Reply 21, posted (3 months 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 5873 times:
Quoting PlymSpotter (Reply 25): Preferably the realisation that Ryanair have lost their campaign to take over Aer Lingus...
They don't need to buy Air Lingus to be innovative and succeed. Ryanair still is the largest airline in Europe when we look at the total passengers carried in within Europe. It is making profit and customers are happy to fly with them.
Let the best airline in Europe to continue its great efforts.
PlymSpotter From Spain, joined Jun 2004, 11108 posts, RR: 63 Reply 22, posted (3 months 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 5795 times:
Quoting finnishway (Reply 26): Let the best airline in Europe to continue its great efforts.
Exactly - let Ryanair keep doing what they do best, and let Aer Lingus keep doing what they do best - separately. Then you get the best of both worlds, which is a competitive and fair air travel market in Ireland.
DFWHeavy From United States of America, joined Jul 2011, 463 posts, RR: 0 Reply 23, posted (3 months 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 5595 times:
I completely agree with KL911,
So what is there is a "Monopoly". No one said someone else couldn't start an airline and compete. I'm sick of governments involved in every aspect of everyone's lives. If 2 companies want to merge, the government shouldn't be telling them they can't. It's sickening.
N867DA From United States of America, joined May 2008, 974 posts, RR: 1 Reply 24, posted (3 months 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 5530 times:
Are Ryanair and Aer Lingus Ireland's only airlines? Are other airlines in Europe allowed to fly domestic Irish flight if they'd like to (a quick search for SNN-DUB shows only EI and BA flights, so I assume yes)?
A nation turns its lonely eyes to you
25 RussianJet: I'm glad that monopolies and cartels are regulated against. It is potentially diabolical for the consumer otherwise, particularly when the companies
26 EagleBoy: This is most definitely NOT 2 companies wanting to merge........... This is company that has a large (and very unwelcome) minority shareholding it on
27 EIDL: There are two other Irish passenger airlines, but one (Aer Arann - RE) operates solely under franchise for Aer Lingus and the other (CityJet - WX) is
28 a320fan: Ah, Thank God that this most likely wont happen. This is solely a plan of Ryanair's to kill off their main competitor in their home market and nothing
29 p201055r: Three quick points:- 1. Ryanair, a vocal critic of various forms of authority is ever the hapless victim when things go against it (according to its o
30 finnishway: Nobody cares about Ireland except the Irish people itself. Now we are talking about the whole Europe and the world. I don't care if there is no route
31 Phen: You've completely missed the essence of this whole story. As EagleBoy pointed out, EI does NOT and will likely never want to merge with FR. Any small
32 Phen: The same can be said for any country to be honest - I don't care what happens to aviation in Slovakia but I would oppose a hostile takeover which wou
33 bx737: Interesting suggestion finnishway, to put it in context for you, it would be acceptable for you to have one air route between Helsinki and Stockholm,
34 Aesma: Yes European airlines can fly any European route they wish.
35 p201055r: Missing the point I think suomalainentapa - Ryanair's hostile take-over bid for Aer Lingus may only be the start of broader expansion plans - the wis
36 ju068: So according to your logic no one should go to Finland just because there is Russia and Sweden next to it? Funny you mention the economy, as both Aer
37 finnishway: Depends on subject. I meant about the Ireland and its economy in total.
38 bx737: I don't know about the railway market or the alcohol market in Finland, but I agree, lets get rid of monopolies, thus the Ryanair take over of Aer Li
39 ju068: Aha... so double standards. Well, we are not discussing the overall state of the Irish economy on here but the state of its aviation sector. I guess
40 finnishway: We have been talking about some island in Ireland and its connections to the mainland. I concluded it myself. Pretty much yes. I know, but Helsinki i
41 Danny: Clearly double standards. No problem with BA buying BMI but Ryanair cannot buy Aer Lingus
42 finnishway: That is not my opinion if you are referring to me.
43 ju068: Yes but normally you should think that as after the merger there are less options to fly into the United Kingdom... you know, so that people do not h
44 Jambost: I would also note easyjet , jet2 and Flybe as they base operations in Northern Ireland. There is no physical boarder to restrain those in Northern Ir
45 Phen: And around in circles we go again. I think we've discussed it at length now with this and other previous threads. Lets move on and await the UK OFT i
46 finnishway: I agree with you. I wonder how many new friends I have made in these discussions. If there will be A.net meeting or something like that in Ireland, m
47 EagleBoy: Lets hope you don't work for the Finnish tourist board BA/Bmi is very different to EI/FR. Bmi was a basketcase airline that had been going downhill (
48 PlymSpotter: Oh yes they do, and you should to. Just about every European country owes every other European country billions in bonds - I don't for one minute thi
49 finnishway: I am not waiting Ireland or Greece to pay much back to us. Finnish people pays your loans back with higher taxes. It is not. That is true. Why fly fr