Sponsor Message:
Civil Aviation Forum
My Starred Topics | Profile | New Topic | Forum Index | Help | Search 
Why Can't Airbus Sell Planes To Cubana?  
User currently offlinedoulasc From United States of America, joined Dec 2011, 529 posts, RR: 0
Posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 16293 times:

I know there is an embargo for Boeing to sell planes to Cubana due to the US embargo on Cuba. Airbus is a French Company.
Is there a embargo for France too causing Airbus being prohibited to sell planes to Cubana. Right now Cubana can only buy planes from Illyshin. Those photos you see of a Cubana A320 are sub leased from TACA.

59 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15719 posts, RR: 26
Reply 1, posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 16289 times:

I'm sure it's because all Airbus planes have at least some US content in them. They'd have to purge and re-engineer quite a bit to sell them to Cuba.


Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlinemaxpower1954 From United States of America, joined Sep 2008, 1074 posts, RR: 7
Reply 2, posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 16162 times:

Cubana can operate second hand Boeings or Airbuses if they want. They flew two DC-8-43s back in the 1970s.

[Edited 2013-02-12 19:07:45]

User currently offlineNavion From United States of America, joined May 1999, 1010 posts, RR: 1
Reply 3, posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 16067 times:

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 1):
I'm sure it's because all Airbus planes have at least some US content in them.

That's the understatement of the year so far. Airbus aircraft have more than "some" U.S. content. Airbus aircraft have significant U.S. content.


User currently onlineFWAERJ From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 3722 posts, RR: 2
Reply 4, posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 15981 times:

Quoting Navion (Reply 3):
That's the understatement of the year so far. Airbus aircraft have more than "some" U.S. content. Airbus aircraft have significant U.S. content.

At least 40% of your average Airbus aircraft, including critical components such as avionics, interior components, and engines, is made out of parts that come from US suppliers.

Even if CU wanted to order an A332 with Rolls-Royce engines, they couldn't because the avionics come from US suppliers and are subject to the embargo. IR actually faced a similar problem several years back when they ordered A330s with Rolls engines - the US-made avionics killed the deal.

[Edited 2013-02-12 19:53:09]


I don't work for FWA, their tenants, or their ad agency. But I still love FWA.
User currently offlinegigneil From United States of America, joined Nov 2002, 16347 posts, RR: 85
Reply 5, posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 15923 times:

Actually worse than that for IR... that embargo has far more signatories than just the US.

Cubana - eh.

NS


User currently offlineApprentice From United States of America, joined Jan 2013, 98 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 15685 times:

Quoting maxpower1954 (Reply 2):


Cubana can not operate even second hand western a/c, same reason, embargo, will made impossible to get spares parts, insurance, finance..
In the 70s , 4 dc-8, were leased, guess wet leased, to Air Canada, in the nineties, up to 4 DC-10, wet leased from former french company AOM, the operation was a difficult one, a simple spare o-ring had to be received from Paris, nothing could come from US. Even there were complaints from Sony about embargo's violation for using their tape reproducers.



A "NO" is a positive answer. My Tutor
User currently onlineFWAERJ From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 3722 posts, RR: 2
Reply 7, posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 15645 times:

Quoting Apprentice (Reply 6):
Even there were complaints from Sony about embargo's violation for using their tape reproducers.

Which is funny, since Sony is a Japanese company.



I don't work for FWA, their tenants, or their ad agency. But I still love FWA.
User currently offlinelightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 12899 posts, RR: 100
Reply 8, posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 15639 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting FWAERJ (Reply 4):
Quoting Navion (Reply 3):
That's the understatement of the year so far. Airbus aircraft have more than "some" U.S. content. Airbus aircraft have significant U.S. content.

At least 40% of your average Airbus aircraft, including critical components such as avionics, interior components, and engines, is made out of parts that come from US suppliers.

   I've seen RR turbine blades being manufactured in the USA. The global supply chain crosses many boarders. If anyone reads the book "Lexus and the Olive Tree" it goes into the advantages of being in the 'golden horde' (basically, an investor or participant in the global supply chain) and the penalties for being outside.

Heck, the latest aircraft from China and Russia will all have US content. (Ghad, I do not miss export license paperwork... )

Lightsaber



Societies that achieve a critical mass of ideas achieve self sustaining growth; others stagnate.
User currently onlineFWAERJ From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 3722 posts, RR: 2
Reply 9, posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 15611 times:

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 8):
I've seen RR turbine blades being manufactured in the USA.

Rolls-Royce also has complete aircraft and helicopter engine plants in Indiana (the former Allison plant in IND) and Virginia, along with a huge R&D center in IND.

In fact, more Rolls engines (including former Allison products) have been built in the US than in any other country, including their homeland of Britain.



I don't work for FWA, their tenants, or their ad agency. But I still love FWA.
User currently offlineAesma From France, joined Nov 2009, 6530 posts, RR: 9
Reply 10, posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 15455 times:

Not only France doesn't support the embargo but is against it (and Fidel came to France in the 80's). But Cuba isn't worth the trouble of alienating the US or developing a US-content free airplane.


New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
User currently offlinelonghauler From Canada, joined Mar 2004, 4913 posts, RR: 43
Reply 11, posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 15356 times:

Quoting Apprentice (Reply 6):
In the 70s , 4 dc-8, were leased, guess wet leased, to Air Canada

They weren't wet leased ... just leased. Three were operated by Cubana, one was returned, one crashed after take-off from BGI and the last was damaged in a mid-air collision near HAV where it landed, was stored, then broken up.



Never gonna grow up, never gonna slow down .... Barefoot Blue Jean Night
User currently offlineMortyman From Norway, joined Aug 2006, 3845 posts, RR: 1
Reply 12, posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 15264 times:

Cubana is already operating 3 Airbus 320 200's ....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cubana#Fleet


User currently offlineflyingalex From Germany, joined Jul 2010, 1016 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 14840 times:

Quoting doulasc (Thread starter):
Right now Cubana can only buy planes from Illyshin.

Sorry to nitpick, but you forgot about these:


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Ricardo Morales - Aviation Photography of Mexico


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Rodolfo García López - Aviation Photography of Mexico.


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Wayne Campbell-CYYZ Aviation Photography




Public service announcement: "It's" = "it is". To indicate posession, write "its." Looks wrong, but it's correct grammar
User currently offlineUALWN From Andorra, joined Jun 2009, 2755 posts, RR: 2
Reply 14, posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 14532 times:

Quoting Mortyman (Reply 12):
Cubana is already operating 3 Airbus 320 200's ....

Confirmed: http://www.cubana.cu/guide/?article=A320

I'd guess these are standard A320s with their US-built parts and all, and yet this doesn't seem to be a problem.



AT7/111/146/Avro/CRJ/CR9/EMB/ERJ/E75/F50/100/L15/DC9/D10/M8X/717/727/737/747/757/767/777/AB6/310/319/320/321/330/340/380
User currently offlineanfromme From Ireland, joined Feb 2012, 440 posts, RR: 11
Reply 15, posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 14443 times:

Quoting Apprentice (Reply 6):
Cubana can not operate even second hand western a/c, same reason, embargo, will made impossible to get spares parts, insurance, finance..

Aerogaviota have four ATR42-500, though, which they got brand-new from ATR in 2002.
I actually saw one of them in operation in late March 2012 (while I got to fly on an ex-military An-26...)
Not quite sure how that deal worked exactly with regard to US content, which is surely found in the ATRs as well.

The embargo would be one problem for Cubana and Aerogaviota, but I think lack of funds to get replacement parts for Western aircraft is at least as big a factor.

Quoting UALWN (Reply 14):
Confirmed: http://www.cubana.cu/guide/?article=A320

I'd guess these are standard A320s with their US-built parts and all, and yet this doesn't seem to be a problem.

I think all of them are/were leased or even wet-leased.
Those photos I could find of Cubana A320s were of hybrid liveries (Cubana/TransAer and Cubana/TACA), and the planes still had their non-Cuban registrations: EI-TLH in one case, N464TA in the other.
According to planespotters.net, TACA was/is the actual operator of most A320s for Cubana.



Flown on: A300B4, A310-200/-300, A319, A320-100/-200, A321-200, A330-200, A340-500/-600, A380-800, An-24, An-26, ATR42,
User currently offlinemigair54 From Spain, joined Jun 2007, 1658 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 14414 times:

Quoting Mortyman (Reply 12):
Cubana is already operating 3 Airbus 320 200's ....

they are leased from TACA but they are EI registered, from Ireland and not N- like many other TACA planes... I heard some gossip about that planes, and some indicate that this planes belongs to a company with good political connexions in Washington, that´s why they are flying for CU, some other airlines try to lease planes to CU and because the embargo they had to leave, Air Europa, Novair, Hola among others....

Quoting doulasc (Thread starter):
I know there is an embargo for Boeing to sell planes to Cubana due to the US embargo on Cuba. Airbus is a French Company.

Even Embraer is not allow to sell to Cuba, I thing if 5% of the total plane is from USA then the embargo is applicable....

Quoting longhauler (Reply 11):
They weren't wet leased ... just leased. Three were operated by Cubana, one was returned, one crashed after take-off from BGI and the last was damaged in a mid-air collision near HAV where it landed, was stored, then broken up.

FYI, it didn´t crash, it was a bomb on board.

Quoting doulasc (Thread starter):
Right now Cubana can only buy planes from Illyshin

I think right now Cubana only has · il-96 but they operate, airbus, tupolev, antonov and yakolev......And Aerocaribbean and Aerogaviota operates ATR as well...


User currently onlineIMissPiedmont From United States of America, joined May 2001, 6279 posts, RR: 34
Reply 17, posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 14218 times:

Quoting Aesma (Reply 10):

Along with the vast majority of the American population.



Quit calling an airport ramp "Tarmac" and a taxiway "runway".
User currently offlinelh526 From Germany, joined Aug 2000, 2352 posts, RR: 14
Reply 18, posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 14198 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
FORUM MODERATOR

Quoting flyingalex (Reply 13):
Sorry to nitpick, but you forgot about these:

So and there's not the slightest content of US made engineering in these russian planes? Avionics, electronics, etc?



Trittst im Morgenrot daher, seh ich dich im Strahlenmeer ...
User currently offlinepvjin From Finland, joined Mar 2012, 1213 posts, RR: 3
Reply 19, posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 14182 times:

I hope this ridiculous embargo would be removed soon, it's pathetic how some people who support it still seem to live in cold war times. Kind of ironic how the very same people who are against all interfering of US government in business, guns, etc, still support this kind of thing that severely restricts one basic human right, freedom of travel.

Though I hope Cubana would keep their Il-96 even after removal of the embargo, when I've finished my studies here I certainly want to visit Cuba again, this time flying there in proper Russian made bird.



"A rational army would run away"
User currently offlineApprentice From United States of America, joined Jan 2013, 98 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 13849 times:

TACA planes are not longer flying for Cubana, ISO, I heard they are using 2 A320 from some Blatic country.
All the western planes operated after 90s are wet leased, the easy way to avoid embargo issues. In some cases, like A320, crew and mx is from Cubana but "enrolled" in the owner airline, that's the reason for TACA's EI- registered a/c, to get crew covered by EASA licence, there is not way for them to get an FAA one.



A "NO" is a positive answer. My Tutor
User currently offlineanfromme From Ireland, joined Feb 2012, 440 posts, RR: 11
Reply 21, posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 13750 times:

Quoting migair54 (Reply 16):
they are leased from TACA but they are EI registered, from Ireland and not N- like many other TACA planes...

I could find this photo of an N-registered TACA A320 wearing additional Cubana titles:
http://www.planespotters.net/Aviation_Photos/photo.show?id=249589

Quoting Apprentice (Reply 20):
All the western planes operated after 90s are wet leased, the easy way to avoid embargo issues

The four Aerogaviota ATR42-500 were bought directly from ATR, though, and have Cuban registrations?

View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Stephen B. Aranha



Again, I have no idea how the sale of those four ATRs was brokered (if anybody has details on this, I'd be most curious to hear them   ), but it seems they were ordered and are now owned and operated by the Cuban airline Aerogaviota.

[Edited 2013-02-13 06:08:17]


Flown on: A300B4, A310-200/-300, A319, A320-100/-200, A321-200, A330-200, A340-500/-600, A380-800, An-24, An-26, ATR42,
User currently onlineairbazar From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 8213 posts, RR: 10
Reply 22, posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 13674 times:

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 1):
I'm sure it's because all Airbus planes have at least some US content in them. They'd have to purge and re-engineer quite a bit to sell them to Cuba.

It has absolutely nothing to do with having US parts. In simple terms the embargo states that any company doing business in Cuba will not be allowed to do business in the US. So if Airbus wants to make and sell planes in the US, they can't sell planes to Cuba. Since Cuba is a tiny market, selling planes to Cuba is not a battle worth fighting for airbus.
However I'm not sure what loophole exists that allows companies like AC, IB, etc to operate to Cuba and the US at the same time because in theory they are doing business in Cuba.


User currently offlinelonghauler From Canada, joined Mar 2004, 4913 posts, RR: 43
Reply 23, posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 13523 times:

Quoting migair54 (Reply 16):
FYI, it didn´t crash, it was a bomb on board.

That is correct, (I have a copy of the accident report).
There were no Air Canada personnel on board.



Never gonna grow up, never gonna slow down .... Barefoot Blue Jean Night
User currently offlinemaxpower1954 From United States of America, joined Sep 2008, 1074 posts, RR: 7
Reply 24, posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 13403 times:

Quoting airbazar (Reply 22):
In simple terms the embargo states that any company doing business in Cuba will not be allowed to do business in the US.

So does that exempt the many Canadian companies that do business in Cuba and the U.S.?


25 anfromme : I'm pretty sure that it doesn't work that way, and I don't know how this would work legally, anyway. The embargo does extend to non-US subsidiaries o
26 lightsaber : Export licences would be revoked. Under the license of the parts sold the US does dictate whom the parts can be re-exported to. Controlling the parts
27 flyb : They company I work for in Canada does business in the United States. If we get a part ordered in from the United States, some of our suppliers (all a
28 ushermittwoch : Of course US companies want to make a few bucks in Cuba. But nobody will openly admit to this. Also, this pathetic embargo needs to stop. Too bad Oba
29 anfromme : It's possible (even likely) that the flow of parts could be stopped if it was known that the parts were to be used on a plane that is to be sold to C
30 goosebayguy : It amazes me that America is still so paranoid about Cuba. Or is it that Cuba has such a great health system that Americans will spend their health do
31 francoflier : Airbus is NOT a French company. It is a European conglomerate headquartered in Toulouse. I could see the point if a majority of the Capital was Frenc
32 EGPH : What I heard, though I don't know where was that there is nothing to stop Airbus or Embraer from selling planes to Cuba even if the plane was 99.9% US
33 flyb : Exactly. The company supplying Airbus could be fined.
34 Post contains images lightsaber : It is the dual use sub-parts that could (and often have) been used to build a weapon. As long as the plane was exported without the dual use parts, t
35 maxpower1954 : It has nothing to do with paranoia. It has everything to do with the political influence on U.S. policy Cuba exiles who had their business and homes
36 anfromme : Ah - thanks for the clarification!
37 UALWN : Spot on. If the goal of the US were to bring down the communist regime in Cuba, that would be the correct strategy: liberalize commerce between Cuba
38 longhauler : An interesting point, as I have a very good friend who is a Cuban national .... every Cuban has food, a place to live, education right up to the high
39 Post contains images airbazar : True but the US certainly has legal leverage over what foreign company can do busines in the US. And that's what the embargo is all about. Since the
40 UALWN : This is very true. Not the USA, but many countries in Europe can claim that. That and much more. I also know many Cubans living in Spain and with fam
41 anfromme : Some choice, as well, I would think. You'll know what I mean if you ever compared what's on offer in shops that sell in Cuban pesos (or in exchange f
42 longhauler : I agree. My Cuban friend mentions that of the hundreds of his friends, family, associates etc. that have left Cuba legally, absolutely none have retu
43 FWAERJ : I think that the Cuban embargo should be lifted as well, even if just the travel embargo is lifted to start. And I think steps are being made in the r
44 AF1624 : This needs pointing out all the time. Airbus is a 100% controlled subsidiary of EADS, after BAE Systems sold its 20% to them in 2006. So Airbus is no
45 KaiTak747 : Even if Cubana could buy Airbus frames new I don't think they would. Cubana is sate owned, and due to the state's very cosy relationship with Russia,
46 UALWN : And, actually, I think we are mostly, if not wholly, in agreement... And Helms died a few years ago, while Castro is still in power... So much for th
47 BoeingGuy : So do most Americans hope the ridiculous ineffective embargo will be lifted against Cuba. Remember, it's not about democracy for the Cuban people. It
48 FWAERJ : In many cases, yes (look at Senator Marco Rubio from Florida), but not always. In fact, neither of the people behind Helms-Burton were from Florida:
49 airbazar : Not really. There are already many resorts in Cuba catering to tourists from Europe, Canada, Latin America, and even Americans. Sure a few more resor
50 anfromme : Except that relations have cooled down somewhat since the collapse of the Soviet Union. Back in the days, the USSR was a strong ally that financed hu
51 prost : I've never understood the embargo against Cuba, a nation we never technically went to war with, and yet we now have good trade relations with Vietnam,
52 anfromme : While it's true that there are certainly enough hotels and resorts in special tourist development zones like Varadero, Cayo Largo, etc., the same can
53 BMI727 : The embargo stems from the fact that after taking power Castro nationalized (read "stole") foreign assets in Cuba, including quite a bit owned by Ame
54 dergay : I'm sure most Native Americans would empathise with your thoughts.
55 anfromme : I think BMI727 was just explaining the origins of the embargo (correctly, by the way), not necessarily saying that he agrees with it.
56 KaiTak747 : Wow, sounds like you had an amazing trip to Cuba! Thanks for the insight, it sounds like Cubana will be flying rare and Russian types for the foresee
57 yyz717 : According to aerotransport, Cubana operates 2 763's and 5 A320's all leased in, in addition to the IL-96 and TU-204's. It would be nice/interesting t
58 packsonflight : Totally agree!! On top of that, I dont understand why Uncle Sam is being so anal about this embargo. He would benefit enormously from lifting the emb
59 Viscount724 : The DC-8s were ex-AC. AC also trained the CU pilots. Canada has never had a trade emgargo with Cuba and those transactions with Cubana never had any
Top Of Page
Forum Index

This topic is archived and can not be replied to any more.

Printer friendly format

Similar topics:More similar topics...
Can Airbus Afford Not To Redesign The A350? posted Wed Apr 5 2006 22:46:37 by BoomBoom
Businessweek.com - Why Can't Airbus Glide On 2005 posted Wed Jan 18 2006 22:42:53 by FlyingHippo
Why Did Carnival Sell Out To Pan Am II posted Thu Jul 31 2003 01:45:45 by 727LOVER
Why Is Airbus Comparing A380 To Boeing's 747X posted Fri Mar 2 2001 17:43:18 by Singapore_Air
Why Can't Boeing Sell In Canada? posted Thu Jun 15 2000 12:22:17 by Ahem
How Does Airbus Get Planes To The US? posted Sat Dec 18 1999 22:41:48 by N766UA
Why Is Airbus Failing To Sell Freighters? posted Thu Aug 30 2012 15:20:13 by Gonzalo
A380 Delay Help Airbus Sell More Planes To QF? posted Mon Jun 6 2005 16:12:25 by Jetfuel
Can Airbus 330-200 Do PHL To NRT Nonstop posted Thu Dec 3 2009 20:36:12 by Deltaflyertoo
FL To Sell 2 Planes, Scale Back Growth Plans posted Thu Mar 6 2008 22:00:26 by Flynavy