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KLM Starts Charging For Checked Bags Within Europe  
User currently offlineCrimsonNL From Netherlands, joined Dec 2007, 1871 posts, RR: 41
Posted (1 year 7 months 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 12873 times:
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Link (Dutch only) http://nos.nl/artikel/473541-ook-bij-klm-betalen-voor-je-koffer.html

Roughly translated;

KLM will start charging 15 euros for checked baggage on flights within Europe. KLM says that 60-70% of the passengers on European flights fly with hand baggage only, and they plan to reduce ticket fares on inter-Europe flights. Flying Blue members [the required level is not mentioned] won't have to pay for bags.
_____________________________________________________________________________________

I personally don't really care for this measure as I never travel with bags on KLM within Europe. I do think it may harm their reputation as a legacy carrier or full-service carrier by imposing charges like this.

Your thoughts?

Martijn


Nothing's worse then flying the same registration twice, except flying it 4 times..
102 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinePH-BFA From Netherlands, joined Apr 2002, 562 posts, RR: 1
Reply 1, posted (1 year 7 months 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 12847 times:

Quoting CrimsonNL (Thread starter):
I do think it may harm their reputation as a legacy carrier or full-service carrier by imposing charges like this.

Why? All legacies in US are already charging for check in luggage. Furthermore flying blue members are exempted and (initially) it is only charged on european flights. Smart move in my opinion.


User currently offlineju068 From Vanuatu, joined Aug 2009, 2640 posts, RR: 6
Reply 2, posted (1 year 7 months 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 12715 times:
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Could we see Air France doing the same?

User currently offlinebongodog1964 From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2006, 3585 posts, RR: 3
Reply 3, posted (1 year 7 months 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 12620 times:

The logic behind the argument is quite laughable really "only about 1/3 of our European passengers check bags in, so we will introduce a charge"
By their own admission the charge will only apply to a smallish percentage of their passengers, a percentage that will then decline as some of the ones that are presently checking in bags will stop doing so. Meanwhile, as a carrier whose short haul network to an extent feeds long haul, they can't stop handling bags, and they have stated that their frequent fliers will be exempt.
They will within a short time see less bags being paid for, but very little reduction in costs, whilst giving the impression of heading down the LCC route.


User currently offlinePolot From United States of America, joined Jul 2011, 2187 posts, RR: 1
Reply 4, posted (1 year 7 months 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 12564 times:

Quoting ju068 (Reply 2):
Could we see Air France doing the same?

Its only a matter of time, along with the other major European airlines.


User currently offlineju068 From Vanuatu, joined Aug 2009, 2640 posts, RR: 6
Reply 5, posted (1 year 7 months 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 12440 times:
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So does that mean that connecting passengers will also have to pay for the luggage? If so then this move is a very stupid one and they will lose a lot of customers to Lufthansa, British Airways and others.

I could see this working for the point to point passengers only.


User currently offlineCrimsonNL From Netherlands, joined Dec 2007, 1871 posts, RR: 41
Reply 6, posted (1 year 7 months 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 12230 times:
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Quoting PH-BFA (Reply 1):
All legacies in US are already charging for check in luggage.

Yes but the European public will only associate pay-for-bags with LCC's, not with an airline like KLM!

Martijn



Nothing's worse then flying the same registration twice, except flying it 4 times..
User currently offlinePH-BFA From Netherlands, joined Apr 2002, 562 posts, RR: 1
Reply 7, posted (1 year 7 months 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 12134 times:

Quoting CrimsonNL (Reply 6):
Yes but the European public will only associate pay-for-bags with LCC's, not with an airline like KLM!

I will only be a matter of time before other European legacies will follow..


User currently offlinePlymSpotter From Spain, joined Jun 2004, 11655 posts, RR: 60
Reply 8, posted (1 year 7 months 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 12135 times:

Disappointing news, although I've yet to see anything from KLM themselves. When will this be implemented from?


Dan  



...love is just a camouflage for what resembles rage again...
User currently offlineokAY From Finland, joined Dec 2006, 663 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (1 year 7 months 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 12048 times:

Quoting CrimsonNL (Reply 6):

Indeed. I really hope KL won't start with this. KL so far has never let me down, such a great airline, but this is definitely a step towards LCC model. I would even somehow accept better BOB being introduced on KL (though preferably not!)


User currently offlineKL911 From Czech Republic, joined Jul 2003, 5140 posts, RR: 15
Reply 10, posted (1 year 7 months 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 12038 times:

Quoting PlymSpotter (Reply 8):
When will this be implemented from?

April 22nd.


User currently offlinemartinair50 From Netherlands, joined May 2011, 53 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (1 year 7 months 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 11997 times:

I had not expected KLM to go this far with cutting costs and I must say I am quite disappointed in them. I think legacy carriers (or even flag carriers) like KLM should be full service airlines who include some hold baggage.

User currently offlinePH-BFA From Netherlands, joined Apr 2002, 562 posts, RR: 1
Reply 12, posted (1 year 7 months 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 11935 times:

Quoting martinair50 (Reply 11):
I had not expected KLM to go this far with cutting costs and I must say I am quite disappointed in them. I think legacy carriers (or even flag carriers) like KLM should be full service airlines who include some hold baggage.

Again:

- all intercontinental flights are exempted (when you need check in luggage the most)
- all flying blue members are exempted (all frequent KLM flyers)
- charge is only a mere 15 euros (which can be booked directly online)

Really, I can't see what all the fuzz is about... Just thinka bout it; it is now considered 'normal' for example that no hot meals are served by legacies on european flights in economy class. Just as it will be normal that the lowest bookable fares do not include checked luggage in the future. And yes I do think almost all legacies will follow suit.


User currently offlineavek00 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 4385 posts, RR: 19
Reply 13, posted (1 year 7 months 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 11933 times:

This move was inevitable, and indeed overdue for the European market.


Live life to the fullest.
User currently offlinePolot From United States of America, joined Jul 2011, 2187 posts, RR: 1
Reply 14, posted (1 year 7 months 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 11917 times:

Quoting CrimsonNL (Reply 6):
Yes but the European public will only associate pay-for-bags with LCC's, not with an airline like KLM!

People here said the exact same thing when American carriers (I think US was the first, but maybe it was AA) started charging for bags on domestic flights.


User currently offlinePlymSpotter From Spain, joined Jun 2004, 11655 posts, RR: 60
Reply 15, posted (1 year 7 months 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 11888 times:

Quoting KL911 (Reply 10):
April 22nd.

Thanks, I plan on flying them in March, so at least I will travel before this.


Dan  



...love is just a camouflage for what resembles rage again...
User currently offliner2rho From Germany, joined Feb 2007, 2630 posts, RR: 1
Reply 16, posted (1 year 7 months 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 11806 times:

I want to see a KL statement about this as the press frequently misinterprets these things. I could imagine them introducing a new low-cost fare segment like AF is doing with the "prix mini", that does not include baggage, FF miles, and other perks. In that case, fine. But I don't [want to] imagine them introducing a general baggage fee.

KL and AMS live on connections. Connections must be exempt from the fee or this will surely hurt them.

Quoting ju068 (Reply 2):
Could we see Air France doing the same?

As said, they already are, but not (yet) on all routes and only as additional fare option - you can always still book the current "classic" fare which includes all usual frills.

Quoting ju068 (Reply 5):
So does that mean that connecting passengers will also have to pay for the luggage? If so then this move is a very stupid one and they will lose a lot of customers to Lufthansa, British Airways and others.

I could see this working for the point to point passengers only.

  


User currently offlineairbazar From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 8368 posts, RR: 10
Reply 17, posted (1 year 7 months 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 11798 times:

I think this is a bad idea for European legagy carriers but KLM is already the "No frills" carrier of the AF/KLM group so it may work for them. I'll give my reasons why I think it is a bad idea.

Quoting PH-BFA (Reply 1):
Why? All legacies in US are already charging for check in luggage.

The US is a completely different market. For staters, the car or train are not an altrnative in the US due to the long distances and lack of HSR, thus giving passengers no option to walk away. Secondly, the US carriers are predominantly domestic carriers. By charging for checked luggage the idea is that pax will check less luggage and the airline will save on fuel and labor costs. KLM and the rest of the legacy carriers are predominantly long haul, intercontinental carriers subject to competition from foreign carriers that will never charge you for checked bags. Thirdly, Europeans are different. They take a lot longer trips where traveling with only a carry-on is not really viable. Compare that to the US where the average vacation is 3 days.

Quoting bongodog1964 (Reply 3):
They will within a short time see less bags being paid for, but very little reduction in costs, whilst giving the impression of heading down the LCC route.

  
If this won't lead to cutting costs, then what's the point?


User currently offlineSKAirbus From Norway, joined Oct 2007, 1737 posts, RR: 1
Reply 18, posted (1 year 7 months 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 11739 times:

I am guessing short haul passengers connecting to long haul flights will also be exempted?


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User currently offlinePolot From United States of America, joined Jul 2011, 2187 posts, RR: 1
Reply 19, posted (1 year 7 months 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 11727 times:

Quoting airbazar (Reply 17):
The US is a completely different market. For staters, the car or train are not an altrnative in the US due to the long distances and lack of HSR, thus giving passengers no option to walk away.

If an extra 15 euros deters people from flying then KLM was probably selling them junk fares to begin with that made the airline no money.

Quoting airbazar (Reply 17):
KLM and the rest of the legacy carriers are predominantly long haul, intercontinental carriers subject to competition from foreign carriers that will never charge you for checked bags.

Just like with American carriers, this fee doesn't apply towards intercontinental flights.

Quoting airbazar (Reply 17):
Thirdly, Europeans are different. They take a lot longer trips where traveling with only a carry-on is not really viable. Compare that to the US where the average vacation is 3 days.

Well if they are flying intercontinental then the fees don't apply. If they are flying for a European vacation then they have to tough it out and pay the fees just like Americans do. Europeans are not that different.

Quoting airbazar (Reply 17):
If this won't lead to cutting costs, then what's the point?

It extracts a little revenue out of the 30-40% of passengers who do fly European short haul flights with checked luggage.


User currently offlineThomasCook From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2004, 796 posts, RR: 8
Reply 20, posted (1 year 7 months 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 11478 times:

Quoting CrimsonNL (Thread starter):
and they plan to reduce ticket fares on inter-Europe flights.

They all say this but in reality, do we ever see fares reduced? I personally haven't. It makes me laugh! Is this in context anyway? Does this figure of 1/3 of paxs checking bags include all those feeding onto KLMs long haul network? Or is it simply 1/3 of pax travelling only within Europe?

ThomasCook



A380 Crew
User currently offlineMaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 17501 posts, RR: 45
Reply 21, posted (1 year 7 months 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 11366 times:

Quoting airbazar (Reply 17):
The US is a completely different market.

No, it is identical, hence why all the EU and Asian carriers are trying the same exact things that US carriers have been doing for years.

Quoting Polot (Reply 14):
People here said the exact same thing when American carriers (I think US was the first, but maybe it was AA) started charging for bags on domestic flights.

  

Quoting ThomasCook (Reply 20):
They all say this but in reality, do we ever see fares reduced?

Maybe for an hour? Honestly I don't know why they'd say this, as they'll match their competition and they don't really have much say in how high or low fares are.



E pur si muove -Galileo
User currently offlinePolot From United States of America, joined Jul 2011, 2187 posts, RR: 1
Reply 22, posted (1 year 7 months 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 11314 times:

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 21):
Maybe for an hour? Honestly I don't know why they'd say this, as they'll match their competition and they don't really have much say in how high or low fares are.

It's just PR to make their customers feel better about this decision; they are not going to track the fares to see if KLM actually lowers them. Other than that the statement is meaningless BS.


User currently offlinePH-BFA From Netherlands, joined Apr 2002, 562 posts, RR: 1
Reply 23, posted (1 year 7 months 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 11262 times:

Quoting ThomasCook (Reply 20):
They all say this but in reality, do we ever see fares reduced? I personally haven't. It makes me laugh!

Really? I am seeing 99 euro return fares bookable on most European flights offered by KLM. Which was absolutely not possible a few years ago. So yes prices have decreased already to a level that it is sometimes cheaper to fly KLM than for example Easyjet ex Amsterdam.


User currently offlineushermittwoch From Germany, joined Jan 2004, 2965 posts, RR: 16
Reply 24, posted (1 year 7 months 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 11217 times:

Quoting PH-BFA (Reply 23):
Really? I am seeing 99 euro return fares bookable on most European flights offered by KLM. Which was absolutely not possible a few years ago. So yes prices have decreased already to a level that it is sometimes cheaper to fly KLM than for example Easyjet ex Amsterdam.

You are apparently seeing more than me then.
Or are you strictly talking about flights ex /toAMS?



Where have all the tri-jets gone...
25 PH-BFA : Yes exactly. European return tickets from Amsterdam
26 Vinniewinnie : Untrue for several very good reasons (on top of my head) : - Air has High Speed Rail and Car competition, America only has bus - Ultra Low-Cost airli
27 SCQ83 : Umm I think there are a few cars in America, aren't there? In the case of AMS, you will likely take a train to Brussels, Paris or Frankfurt (and what
28 toltommy : The others will follow. Continental tried holding out when other US carriers implemented the fees. The expected bump in traffic never occured and the
29 jc2354 : I think that all the European legacies have wanted to add these charges, but nobody wanted to be the first. It's just a matter of time until more and
30 SASMD82 : Isn't it much more feasible to check weight and size of hand luggage to avoid problems in cabin? In stead of punishing people who check in luggage? A
31 Post contains images MaverickM11 : That is what has happened everywhere else, so yes Their IT can't handle bag fees. But it's so great! Just not for FL! They really aren't any differen
32 kevin752 : Honestly, I don't see how this makes them look like they are going down the road to being a LCC. By saying that must mean that all the legacy carries
33 airbazar : Or they can fly with someone else. Not if they'll lose the customer to another airline. You missed the point of my entire post, completely. The point
34 Post contains images Polot : Assuming other Euro airlines don't follow. Assuming other Euro airlines don't follow. I'm sure LH/IAG and others will be watching KLM closely, and if
35 Post contains images MaverickM11 : The US also has 2-3+ decades head start on deregulation; EU/Asian carriers are following in the same tracks US carriers blazed years ago--just give i
36 ju068 : It is also important to know how much they will charge for the luggage. If they charge too much for it then it might produce a negative effect among t
37 avek00 : Exactly. You think the other Euro legacies are going to miss out on solid PER DAY 500,000-1,000,000 Euro/GBP boost to the revenue stream by holding o
38 airbazar : A No Frills carrier, often confused with a LCC, and Full Service carrier cater to different consumers. In the US they cater to the same consumer. Tha
39 YULWinterSkies : It sure will, but only until others follow. AF is a logical #2 to be expected, and I can't see IB, BA, LH and others resisting very long if this work
40 KaiTak747 : I agree, the reason why, for example, I like to fly BA over EZ is that it is a 'full service' experience. You pay a little more, but you are in a mor
41 martinair50 : In my opinion the fuss is just about the concept of having to pay for your bags on the Dutch flag carrier, not taking in account the price of the fee
42 RussianJet : If it really reduces fares then it shouldn't matter much, but I'm highly sceptical of this claim.
43 okAY : I do not know how it is in America, and when traveling intra-Europe, I do not care what American carriers do. I have taken KL a few times down to BCN
44 MaverickM11 : None of these really matter in the big picture. Sure there are differences between the EU and US in the same way there are differences between US' hu
45 Post contains images padster : Well as a Lifetime Platinum elite member with Flying Blue I am angered with these changes .. Even at my local Airport the Low Cost carrier Jet 2 offer
46 crosswinds21 : I think that this is a very interesting move. Is it a positive one? Maybe it is and maybe it isn't. I'm not sure yet. I think that it's obvious that g
47 AndyEastMids : Sadly, another legacy airline that's lost the plot with respect to what it means to be a "proper airline" offering a full-service, versus being a LCC
48 triyuc : i think klm is going to lose their passenger
49 VV701 : Deregulation effectively started in the USA on 23 October 1978 when the Airline Deregulation Act was signed by President Carter. It started in Europe
50 toobz : Im with PH. KL has offered very good fares within europe to and from AMS. In this day and age if you need to check a bag in flying within Europe, than
51 Polot : In addition to that, I'm not sure I would go around touting SK's European service, especially in Y class, as a high standard for full service carrier
52 toobz : No Polot i wouldnt either..but they are most always the cheapest. Take from that what you like. Most of their flights within Europe are anywhere from
53 okAY : When and who did that?
54 Rara : Not really... if other legacies match the new fee, the situation for KL will be pretty much the same as when none of the legacies had the fee. The co
55 davidkunzVIE : And are we to cheer or what?
56 Post contains images infinit : Very Dutch of them indeed
57 Viscount724 : Many passengers within Europe still travel with bags too large for carry-on so they will generate some additional revenue. Not sure what you are refe
58 Pe@rson : I notice that KL had an advertisement within today's The Times about its £39 one-way all-in fares - rather than one-way fares considerably more than
59 LH422 : Actually, LH is just starting this by moving all non-FRA and non-MUC flights to Germanwings and charging for the first bag.
60 something : Everytime any airline somewhere on earth moves away from any type of service, you come a'-knockin' and lecture us how ''soon the whole world will be
61 LuftyMatt : I completley agree with you. They make a big thing about connecting people to the rest of the world, but this move will put them out of favour with t
62 Post contains images r2rho : Exactly. And the same goes for the new AF mini fares. And this is what I believe KL will start doing. Offer a lower fare level in addition to the cur
63 MaverickM11 : The provides more obstacles than anything. it's not like say, Germany and France can deregulate and KL/SN stay isolated from deregulation. Once you o
64 Post contains images Quokkas : Ignorance, lack of awareness, lack of savoir faire are not the same as stupid. On a forum like this we can pride ourselves as being more aware but th
65 something : We don't know that yet for certain. For all we know, this ''news'' may be entirely untrue. Maybe KL will only introduce a new fare class that doesn't
66 Post contains images Quokkas : If LH are shifting a large proportion of their flights on to Germanwings that point is mute. If LH is shifting all bar FRA and MUC to 4U, that means
67 Post contains links Pe@rson : It is confirmed: http://www.klm.com/travel/gb_en/camp.../index.htm?wt.seg_3=HP_wide_1stbag[Edited 2013-02-14 08:46:04]
68 Quokkas : Thanks for the link Pe@rson. I wonder what is the logic behind Is it because of what airlines from those countries offer on flights to AMS or is it be
69 MaverickM11 : The cost of aircraft, fuel, and labor are all pretty close no matter where you are on earth, and people's willingness to pay for anything above and b
70 okAY : Airline industry is indeed much more mature in America than it is here. I would even dare to say that in Europe people are still somehow hanging on t
71 B747forever : I am also at the most basic level (ivory) and according to the email from KLM I will not have pay the checked bag fee.
72 okAY : Interesting point: Italy is excluded as a country from the bag fee. Anyone knows why?
73 ADent : Well it comes down to raise fares for every one 5 euros or charge a bag fee of 15 euros for 1/3 of its travelers. In the USA people would rather pay t
74 LondonCity : That is true. But I wonder for how long KLM will provide this offer to all Flying Blue members ? I suspect that, after an initial period, KLM will on
75 Speedbird741 : I sincerely hope this is not true. Other carriers would unfortunately be bound to follow in KLM's steps and, before we would know it, our airlines wou
76 Post contains links LondonCity : But it is true. Here is a report in today's Huffington Post: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/0...-fees-dutch-airline_n_2685323.html
77 Polot : You mean how FR and U2 have just been outright rejected by the European public? Sorry to inform you, but airlines are just mere means of transport in
78 Speedbird741 : Those airlines have nothing to do with KLM as they are build on a low cost model and operate as they are supposed to. This is, quite obviously, why t
79 SuperCaravelle : Alternatively, they are trying to get people to sign up for Flying Blue (which isn't hard after all), hoping to attract regular customers in the proc
80 Polot : The reason they keep the name around is yes, because they are national symbols. That doesn't mean that they would be rejected for cutting service. AA
81 Lutfi : LCC have a 36-37% share in Europe. So have been pretty successful as has been pointed out. Full service for flights of 2-3 hours is just silly IMHO.
82 luckyone : Germans don't mind paying the fees with the likes of every LCC serving Germany, including their own, Air Berlin. And as has been mentioned, Germanwin
83 B747forever : Well we have Spirit that even charges for carry-on luggage
84 r2rho : Talking about differences between EU and US, clogging the overheads is definitely one. I have seen carry-ons on US flights which would be unthinkable
85 okAY : It is confirmed by KLM, check reply 67 for a link.
86 max999 : Blame that clogging on the checked bag fees from the US airlines; they are incentivizing the customers to carry on as much as possible. I think most
87 okAY : The only difference being that Euro-carriers are strict with hand luggage. When I worked as ground staff at HEL the crew of any airline would come wi
88 lexer : I think it is an interesting move to charge for bags, one that should be mandatory for all airlines all over the world. The one thing I like about the
89 Rara : The key to doing something against global warming is staying at home, not packing light bags. With one medium-haul return flight, I already cause mor
90 lexer : Sure, I agree with that. But showing cost will help, if only to educate about cause and effect, and hopefully chip away at the sense of entitlement r
91 Post contains images r2rho : So it seems indeed that this will be a true LCC-style baggage fee, rather than an additional fare option, as other carriers (notably AF) are doing, an
92 PH-BFA : because you neither have to pay with KLM when flying via AMS as a transit pax...
93 Bongodog1964 : With BA announcing yesterday that they will be trialling "bagless" fares on a few routes, following on from this KL decision last week, the free check
94 toobz : Yes I agree. Living in the US for over 20 years I am still shocked at the bags people bring on board. It is very much more strict in Europe. And it is
95 Post contains links and images airbazar : Legacy carriers don't usually operate on tight turnaround schedules like the LCC's do. It's all three: geography, politics and HSR. Europe is a much
96 r2rho : Yes you do... for intra-EU, which is what I was talking about. You only avoid the fee when transferring intercontinental. No, the BA approach is quit
97 ozglobal : And we were and are totally right! US carriers do have the reputation of LCCs in Europe. KLM will join them with this self defeating policy. In the U
98 Bongodog1964 : The only difference I can see is that KL have said "you will now pay extra for a bag", whilst the BA trial on selected routes is worded as "there's a
99 airbazar : The perception is completely different and it's not an extra fee, which is what most of us "anti-fee" people have been saying all along: Make it part
100 Post contains images Polot : You are probably going to see the fare that includes checked bags creep up so much over time vs the cheaper fare that it will end up having the same
101 Post contains images Bongodog1964 : Of course its an extra fee, there will be a distinction between checking and not checking a bag, anyone saying differently is deluding themselves bef
102 VV701 : Not here in Europe. A study by CAPA (Centre for Aviation) showed that labour costs in the European airline industry vary by more than a factor of two
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