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KLM Starts Charging For Checked Bags Within Europe  
User currently offlineCrimsonNL From Netherlands, joined Dec 2007, 1887 posts, RR: 42
Posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 12913 times:
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Link (Dutch only) http://nos.nl/artikel/473541-ook-bij-klm-betalen-voor-je-koffer.html

Roughly translated;

KLM will start charging 15 euros for checked baggage on flights within Europe. KLM says that 60-70% of the passengers on European flights fly with hand baggage only, and they plan to reduce ticket fares on inter-Europe flights. Flying Blue members [the required level is not mentioned] won't have to pay for bags.
_____________________________________________________________________________________

I personally don't really care for this measure as I never travel with bags on KLM within Europe. I do think it may harm their reputation as a legacy carrier or full-service carrier by imposing charges like this.

Your thoughts?

Martijn


Nothing's worse then flying the same registration twice, except flying it 4 times..
102 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinePH-BFA From Netherlands, joined Apr 2002, 562 posts, RR: 1
Reply 1, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 12887 times:

Quoting CrimsonNL (Thread starter):
I do think it may harm their reputation as a legacy carrier or full-service carrier by imposing charges like this.

Why? All legacies in US are already charging for check in luggage. Furthermore flying blue members are exempted and (initially) it is only charged on european flights. Smart move in my opinion.


User currently offlineju068 From Vanuatu, joined Aug 2009, 2691 posts, RR: 6
Reply 2, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 12755 times:
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Could we see Air France doing the same?

User currently offlinebongodog1964 From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2006, 3635 posts, RR: 3
Reply 3, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 12660 times:

The logic behind the argument is quite laughable really "only about 1/3 of our European passengers check bags in, so we will introduce a charge"
By their own admission the charge will only apply to a smallish percentage of their passengers, a percentage that will then decline as some of the ones that are presently checking in bags will stop doing so. Meanwhile, as a carrier whose short haul network to an extent feeds long haul, they can't stop handling bags, and they have stated that their frequent fliers will be exempt.
They will within a short time see less bags being paid for, but very little reduction in costs, whilst giving the impression of heading down the LCC route.


User currently offlinePolot From United States of America, joined Jul 2011, 2259 posts, RR: 1
Reply 4, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 12604 times:

Quoting ju068 (Reply 2):
Could we see Air France doing the same?

Its only a matter of time, along with the other major European airlines.


User currently offlineju068 From Vanuatu, joined Aug 2009, 2691 posts, RR: 6
Reply 5, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 12480 times:
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So does that mean that connecting passengers will also have to pay for the luggage? If so then this move is a very stupid one and they will lose a lot of customers to Lufthansa, British Airways and others.

I could see this working for the point to point passengers only.


User currently offlineCrimsonNL From Netherlands, joined Dec 2007, 1887 posts, RR: 42
Reply 6, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 12270 times:
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Quoting PH-BFA (Reply 1):
All legacies in US are already charging for check in luggage.

Yes but the European public will only associate pay-for-bags with LCC's, not with an airline like KLM!

Martijn



Nothing's worse then flying the same registration twice, except flying it 4 times..
User currently offlinePH-BFA From Netherlands, joined Apr 2002, 562 posts, RR: 1
Reply 7, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 12174 times:

Quoting CrimsonNL (Reply 6):
Yes but the European public will only associate pay-for-bags with LCC's, not with an airline like KLM!

I will only be a matter of time before other European legacies will follow..


User currently offlinePlymSpotter From Spain, joined Jun 2004, 11668 posts, RR: 60
Reply 8, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 12175 times:

Disappointing news, although I've yet to see anything from KLM themselves. When will this be implemented from?


Dan  



...love is just a camouflage for what resembles rage again...
User currently offlineokAY From Finland, joined Dec 2006, 669 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 12088 times:

Quoting CrimsonNL (Reply 6):

Indeed. I really hope KL won't start with this. KL so far has never let me down, such a great airline, but this is definitely a step towards LCC model. I would even somehow accept better BOB being introduced on KL (though preferably not!)


User currently offlineKL911 From Czech Republic, joined Jul 2003, 5204 posts, RR: 15
Reply 10, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 12078 times:

Quoting PlymSpotter (Reply 8):
When will this be implemented from?

April 22nd.


User currently offlinemartinair50 From Netherlands, joined May 2011, 55 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 12037 times:

I had not expected KLM to go this far with cutting costs and I must say I am quite disappointed in them. I think legacy carriers (or even flag carriers) like KLM should be full service airlines who include some hold baggage.

User currently offlinePH-BFA From Netherlands, joined Apr 2002, 562 posts, RR: 1
Reply 12, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 11975 times:

Quoting martinair50 (Reply 11):
I had not expected KLM to go this far with cutting costs and I must say I am quite disappointed in them. I think legacy carriers (or even flag carriers) like KLM should be full service airlines who include some hold baggage.

Again:

- all intercontinental flights are exempted (when you need check in luggage the most)
- all flying blue members are exempted (all frequent KLM flyers)
- charge is only a mere 15 euros (which can be booked directly online)

Really, I can't see what all the fuzz is about... Just thinka bout it; it is now considered 'normal' for example that no hot meals are served by legacies on european flights in economy class. Just as it will be normal that the lowest bookable fares do not include checked luggage in the future. And yes I do think almost all legacies will follow suit.


User currently offlineavek00 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 4405 posts, RR: 19
Reply 13, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 11973 times:

This move was inevitable, and indeed overdue for the European market.


Live life to the fullest.
User currently offlinePolot From United States of America, joined Jul 2011, 2259 posts, RR: 1
Reply 14, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 11957 times:

Quoting CrimsonNL (Reply 6):
Yes but the European public will only associate pay-for-bags with LCC's, not with an airline like KLM!

People here said the exact same thing when American carriers (I think US was the first, but maybe it was AA) started charging for bags on domestic flights.


User currently offlinePlymSpotter From Spain, joined Jun 2004, 11668 posts, RR: 60
Reply 15, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 11928 times:

Quoting KL911 (Reply 10):
April 22nd.

Thanks, I plan on flying them in March, so at least I will travel before this.


Dan  



...love is just a camouflage for what resembles rage again...
User currently offliner2rho From Germany, joined Feb 2007, 2678 posts, RR: 1
Reply 16, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 11846 times:

I want to see a KL statement about this as the press frequently misinterprets these things. I could imagine them introducing a new low-cost fare segment like AF is doing with the "prix mini", that does not include baggage, FF miles, and other perks. In that case, fine. But I don't [want to] imagine them introducing a general baggage fee.

KL and AMS live on connections. Connections must be exempt from the fee or this will surely hurt them.

Quoting ju068 (Reply 2):
Could we see Air France doing the same?

As said, they already are, but not (yet) on all routes and only as additional fare option - you can always still book the current "classic" fare which includes all usual frills.

Quoting ju068 (Reply 5):
So does that mean that connecting passengers will also have to pay for the luggage? If so then this move is a very stupid one and they will lose a lot of customers to Lufthansa, British Airways and others.

I could see this working for the point to point passengers only.

  


User currently onlineairbazar From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 8481 posts, RR: 10
Reply 17, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 11838 times:

I think this is a bad idea for European legagy carriers but KLM is already the "No frills" carrier of the AF/KLM group so it may work for them. I'll give my reasons why I think it is a bad idea.

Quoting PH-BFA (Reply 1):
Why? All legacies in US are already charging for check in luggage.

The US is a completely different market. For staters, the car or train are not an altrnative in the US due to the long distances and lack of HSR, thus giving passengers no option to walk away. Secondly, the US carriers are predominantly domestic carriers. By charging for checked luggage the idea is that pax will check less luggage and the airline will save on fuel and labor costs. KLM and the rest of the legacy carriers are predominantly long haul, intercontinental carriers subject to competition from foreign carriers that will never charge you for checked bags. Thirdly, Europeans are different. They take a lot longer trips where traveling with only a carry-on is not really viable. Compare that to the US where the average vacation is 3 days.

Quoting bongodog1964 (Reply 3):
They will within a short time see less bags being paid for, but very little reduction in costs, whilst giving the impression of heading down the LCC route.

  
If this won't lead to cutting costs, then what's the point?


User currently offlineSKAirbus From Norway, joined Oct 2007, 1749 posts, RR: 1
Reply 18, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 11779 times:

I am guessing short haul passengers connecting to long haul flights will also be exempted?


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User currently offlinePolot From United States of America, joined Jul 2011, 2259 posts, RR: 1
Reply 19, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 11767 times:

Quoting airbazar (Reply 17):
The US is a completely different market. For staters, the car or train are not an altrnative in the US due to the long distances and lack of HSR, thus giving passengers no option to walk away.

If an extra 15 euros deters people from flying then KLM was probably selling them junk fares to begin with that made the airline no money.

Quoting airbazar (Reply 17):
KLM and the rest of the legacy carriers are predominantly long haul, intercontinental carriers subject to competition from foreign carriers that will never charge you for checked bags.

Just like with American carriers, this fee doesn't apply towards intercontinental flights.

Quoting airbazar (Reply 17):
Thirdly, Europeans are different. They take a lot longer trips where traveling with only a carry-on is not really viable. Compare that to the US where the average vacation is 3 days.

Well if they are flying intercontinental then the fees don't apply. If they are flying for a European vacation then they have to tough it out and pay the fees just like Americans do. Europeans are not that different.

Quoting airbazar (Reply 17):
If this won't lead to cutting costs, then what's the point?

It extracts a little revenue out of the 30-40% of passengers who do fly European short haul flights with checked luggage.


User currently offlineThomasCook From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2004, 796 posts, RR: 8
Reply 20, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 11518 times:

Quoting CrimsonNL (Thread starter):
and they plan to reduce ticket fares on inter-Europe flights.

They all say this but in reality, do we ever see fares reduced? I personally haven't. It makes me laugh! Is this in context anyway? Does this figure of 1/3 of paxs checking bags include all those feeding onto KLMs long haul network? Or is it simply 1/3 of pax travelling only within Europe?

ThomasCook



A380 Crew
User currently offlineMaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 17659 posts, RR: 46
Reply 21, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 11406 times:

Quoting airbazar (Reply 17):
The US is a completely different market.

No, it is identical, hence why all the EU and Asian carriers are trying the same exact things that US carriers have been doing for years.

Quoting Polot (Reply 14):
People here said the exact same thing when American carriers (I think US was the first, but maybe it was AA) started charging for bags on domestic flights.

  

Quoting ThomasCook (Reply 20):
They all say this but in reality, do we ever see fares reduced?

Maybe for an hour? Honestly I don't know why they'd say this, as they'll match their competition and they don't really have much say in how high or low fares are.



E pur si muove -Galileo
User currently offlinePolot From United States of America, joined Jul 2011, 2259 posts, RR: 1
Reply 22, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 11354 times:

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 21):
Maybe for an hour? Honestly I don't know why they'd say this, as they'll match their competition and they don't really have much say in how high or low fares are.

It's just PR to make their customers feel better about this decision; they are not going to track the fares to see if KLM actually lowers them. Other than that the statement is meaningless BS.


User currently offlinePH-BFA From Netherlands, joined Apr 2002, 562 posts, RR: 1
Reply 23, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 11302 times:

Quoting ThomasCook (Reply 20):
They all say this but in reality, do we ever see fares reduced? I personally haven't. It makes me laugh!

Really? I am seeing 99 euro return fares bookable on most European flights offered by KLM. Which was absolutely not possible a few years ago. So yes prices have decreased already to a level that it is sometimes cheaper to fly KLM than for example Easyjet ex Amsterdam.


User currently offlineushermittwoch From Germany, joined Jan 2004, 2965 posts, RR: 16
Reply 24, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 11257 times:

Quoting PH-BFA (Reply 23):
Really? I am seeing 99 euro return fares bookable on most European flights offered by KLM. Which was absolutely not possible a few years ago. So yes prices have decreased already to a level that it is sometimes cheaper to fly KLM than for example Easyjet ex Amsterdam.

You are apparently seeing more than me then.
Or are you strictly talking about flights ex /toAMS?



Where have all the tri-jets gone...
User currently offlinePH-BFA From Netherlands, joined Apr 2002, 562 posts, RR: 1
Reply 25, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 11754 times:

Quoting ushermittwoch (Reply 24):
Or are you strictly talking about flights ex /toAMS?

Yes exactly. European return tickets from Amsterdam


User currently offlineVinniewinnie From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 794 posts, RR: 0
Reply 26, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 11787 times:

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 21):
No, it is identical, hence why all the EU and Asian carriers are trying the same exact things that US carriers have been doing for years.

Untrue for several very good reasons (on top of my head) :

- Air has High Speed Rail and Car competition, America only has bus
- Ultra Low-Cost airlines are common in Europe, non in the US
- Total trop distances are far shorter in Europe than in the US
- Competition is fierce in Europe, not so much (anymore) in the US

Is it a sign that the European air market is less mature? Maybe in terms of consolidations but that doesn't explain everything.

Back to the topic: Good move from KL, not as if they were facing huge competition with a far superior product from AMS! Their main competitors are Easyjet and Transavia after all!


User currently offlineSCQ83 From United States of America, joined Oct 2012, 1024 posts, RR: 0
Reply 27, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 11875 times:

Quoting Vinniewinnie (Reply 26):
Untrue for several very good reasons (on top of my head) :

- Air has High Speed Rail and Car competition, America only has bus

Umm I think there are a few cars in America, aren't there?

In the case of AMS, you will likely take a train to Brussels, Paris or Frankfurt (and whatever is in between.. and yes, that is already a lot!)... but still London, Spain, Italy, Switzerland, Scandinavia, Southern France, Eastern/Southern Germany... that is all plane... or car or bus.


User currently offlinetoltommy From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 3297 posts, RR: 4
Reply 28, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 11827 times:

Quoting ju068 (Reply 5):
So does that mean that connecting passengers will also have to pay for the luggage? If so then this move is a very stupid one and they will lose a lot of customers to Lufthansa, British Airways and others.

The others will follow. Continental tried holding out when other US carriers implemented the fees. The expected bump in traffic never occured and they followed the rest of the US legacies after a short period. When you see how much revenue these fees produce, it's almost crazy not to impose them, since the travelling public has accepted them. Even the folks at Southwest can't bring themselves to simply remove the fees at AirTran. One could make the case that the bag fees at AirTran are actually paying for the acquisition.


User currently offlinejc2354 From United States of America, joined May 2004, 586 posts, RR: 0
Reply 29, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 11572 times:

I think that all the European legacies have wanted to add these charges, but nobody wanted to be the first. It's just a matter of time until more and more of the legacies implement these charges.


If not now, then when?
User currently offlineSASMD82 From Netherlands, joined Mar 2007, 781 posts, RR: 0
Reply 30, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 11456 times:
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Isn't it much more feasible to check weight and size of hand luggage to avoid problems in cabin? In stead of punishing people who check in luggage? A typical Dutch attitude will become reality now I think -> to save money. The way to do now it to squeeze as much as luggage as possible in their hand luggage trolley now.

But if KL prefers the money over congested overhead bins....


User currently offlineMaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 17659 posts, RR: 46
Reply 31, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 11347 times:

Quoting SASMD82 (Reply 30):
A typical Dutch attitude will become reality now I think -> to save money. The way to do now it to squeeze as much as luggage as possible in their hand luggage trolley now.

That is what has happened everywhere else, so yes

Quoting toltommy (Reply 28):
Even the folks at Southwest can't bring themselves to simply remove the fees at AirTran

Their IT can't handle bag fees. But it's so great! Just not for FL
Quoting Vinniewinnie (Reply 26):
Untrue for several very good reasons (on top of my head) :

They really aren't any different; the environment may be different, but ultimately the passengers are willing to pay for the same exact things, no matter where on earth they are.



E pur si muove -Galileo
User currently offlinekevin752 From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 727 posts, RR: 4
Reply 32, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 11086 times:

Honestly, I don't see how this makes them look like they are going down the road to being a LCC. By saying that must mean that all the legacy carries in the USA and Canada are not legacy but LCC's. Which is not true. I am surprised that the major Euro carries waited this long to adopt these new policies since most North American carries charge for bags. People want lower fares so they can fly places which is great but then lower fares mean moving to a a la cart ticket pricing. Being from the US and working for an airline this does not strike me as odd or surprising. But then again we have been paying for bags for years and years here.


"Keep Climbing"
User currently onlineairbazar From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 8481 posts, RR: 10
Reply 33, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 11075 times:

Quoting Polot (Reply 19):
If an extra 15 euros deters people from flying then KLM was probably selling them junk fares to begin with that made the airline no money.
Quoting Polot (Reply 19):
Well if they are flying intercontinental then the fees don't apply. If they are flying for a European vacation then they have to tough it out and pay the fees just like Americans do. Europeans are not that different.

Or they can fly with someone else.

Quoting Polot (Reply 19):
It extracts a little revenue out of the 30-40% of passengers who do fly European short haul flights with checked luggage.

Not if they'll lose the customer to another airline.

Quoting Polot (Reply 19):
Just like with American carriers, this fee doesn't apply towards intercontinental flights.

You missed the point of my entire post, completely. The point of charging for checked luggage is to lower costs and make some money off of those who have no choice but to pay for it. In Europe most travelers have other options. However with the majority of pax being intercontinental connections the airline won't save on costs and the revenue is likely to be negligible. That's why no other full service European carrier has dared charge for 1st bag.

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 21):
No, it is identical, hence why all the EU and Asian carriers are trying the same exact things that US carriers have been doing for years.

Name one European or Asian full service carrier that charges for 1st checked bad.
The market is different and the consumer is different.


User currently offlinePolot From United States of America, joined Jul 2011, 2259 posts, RR: 1
Reply 34, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 10717 times:

Quoting airbazar (Reply 33):
Or they can fly with someone else.

Assuming other Euro airlines don't follow.

Quoting airbazar (Reply 33):
Not if they'll lose the customer to another airline.

Assuming other Euro airlines don't follow.

I'm sure LH/IAG and others will be watching KLM closely, and if there is no major negative effect (which, lets be honest, there won't be) and implement there own similar system.

Quoting airbazar (Reply 33):
You missed the point of my entire post, completely. The point of charging for checked luggage is to lower costs and make some money off of those who have no choice but to pay for it. In Europe most travelers have other options. However with the majority of pax being intercontinental connections the airline won't save on costs and the revenue is likely to be negligible. That's why no other full service European carrier has dared charge for 1st bag.

Negligible revenue is better than none at all. The reason Euro carriers haven't decided to charge is quite simple. Up into recently they were very profitable. Now, however, the Euro economy is struggling, the US carriers are much leaner and more competitive (costs wise) across the Atlantic while they are facing ever increasing competition from the East. That has put negative pressure on their bottom line, so you are now starting to see them address their cost issues. One part of that is baggage fees, others are pay and benefits cuts (see BA and what is happening with IB now).

Quoting airbazar (Reply 33):
The market is different and the consumer is different.

The market is different. The consumer? not so much. Lets not forget where ULCCs come from (hint: not the US) and who some of the fastest growing airlines in Asia currently are 


User currently offlineMaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 17659 posts, RR: 46
Reply 35, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 10612 times:

Quoting airbazar (Reply 33):

Name one European or Asian full service carrier that charges for 1st checked bad.
The market is different and the consumer is different.

The US also has 2-3+ decades head start on deregulation; EU/Asian carriers are following in the same tracks US carriers blazed years ago--just give it time. The consumer is identical the world over.

Quoting Polot (Reply 34):
I'm sure LH/IAG and others will be watching KLM closely, and if there is no major negative effect (which, lets be honest, there won't be) and implement there own similar system.

  

Quoting airbazar (Reply 33):

Not if they'll lose the customer to another airline.

If you're flying out of AMS and want to fly nonstop, your options are limited, and a lot of them charge for bags already.



E pur si muove -Galileo
User currently offlineju068 From Vanuatu, joined Aug 2009, 2691 posts, RR: 6
Reply 36, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 10429 times:
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It is also important to know how much they will charge for the luggage. If they charge too much for it then it might produce a negative effect among the travelling public.
I still find it stupid for them to charge connecting passengers within Europe but... anyway.


User currently offlineavek00 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 4405 posts, RR: 19
Reply 37, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 10399 times:

Quoting jc2354 (Reply 29):

I think that all the European legacies have wanted to add these charges, but nobody wanted to be the first. It's just a matter of time until more and more of the legacies implement these charges.

Exactly. You think the other Euro legacies are going to miss out on solid PER DAY 500,000-1,000,000 Euro/GBP boost to the revenue stream by holding out on bag fees as soon as the marketplace demonstrates that it will accept them?



Live life to the fullest.
User currently onlineairbazar From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 8481 posts, RR: 10
Reply 38, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 10374 times:

Quoting Polot (Reply 34):
The market is different. The consumer? not so much. Lets not forget where ULCCs come from (hint: not the US) and who some of the fastest growing airlines in Asia currently are

A No Frills carrier, often confused with a LCC, and Full Service carrier cater to different consumers. In the US they cater to the same consumer. That's the difference. The LCC in Europe and Asia have created their own market which did not exist previously.

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 35):
The US also has 2-3+ decades head start on deregulation; EU/Asian carriers are following in the same tracks US carriers blazed years ago--just give it time. The consumer is identical the world over.

To some extent yes but they will have their own form of evolution and it won't be like in the US. That's mainly because of geography, politics, and HSR, all 3 are significantly different than in the US.


User currently offlineYULWinterSkies From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 2182 posts, RR: 5
Reply 39, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 10318 times:

Quoting CrimsonNL (Thread starter):
I do think it may harm their reputation as a legacy carrier or full-service carrier by imposing charges like this.

It sure will, but only until others follow. AF is a logical #2 to be expected, and I can't see IB, BA, LH and others resisting very long if this works for KL.

Quoting ju068 (Reply 2):
Could we see Air France doing the same?


Yes, at least through its LCC subsidiary Hop! that will be starting in April.

Quoting airbazar (Reply 17):
By charging for checked luggage the idea is that pax will check less luggage and the airline will save on fuel and labor costs.

Maybe that was the expected effect. In reality, it means race to the boarding process among pax, full overhead cabin storage space delaying boarding, and commonly, last minute bag check at the gate, which costs time and money to the airlines.



When I doubt... go running!
User currently offlineKaiTak747 From Switzerland, joined Aug 2012, 157 posts, RR: 0
Reply 40, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 10234 times:

Quoting martinair50 (Reply 11):

I had not expected KLM to go this far with cutting costs and I must say I am quite disappointed in them. I think legacy carriers (or even flag carriers) like KLM should be full service airlines who include some hold baggage.

I agree, the reason why, for example, I like to fly BA over EZ is that it is a 'full service' experience. You pay a little more, but you are in a more comfortable seat, get a free drink and snack and a free checked bag. If BA were to start behaving like a low cost airline, there will be no benefit with flying with them over the low cost competition.

Most people do not fly very often, and don't mind paying more for a little better service. This is why people don't just fly with EZ and Ryanair and instead fly with legacies.

I can't see this being a big earner for KL and will harm their brand.

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 21):
No, it is identical, hence why all the EU and Asian carriers are trying the same exact things that US carriers have been doing for years.

No it isn't, unlike the US, Europe is not a country. On average people do not fly as often and for different reasons.


User currently offlinemartinair50 From Netherlands, joined May 2011, 55 posts, RR: 0
Reply 41, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 10148 times:

Quoting PH-BFA (Reply 12):


Really, I can't see what all the fuzz is about... Just thinka bout it; it is now considered 'normal' for example that no hot meals are served by legacies on european flights in economy class. Just as it will be normal that the lowest bookable fares do not include checked luggage in the future. And yes I do think almost all legacies will follow suit.

In my opinion the fuss is just about the concept of having to pay for your bags on the Dutch flag carrier, not taking in account the price of the fee or excluding passengers: In the Neth, I think that everyone just expects all fees to be included, the only exception being low-cost carriers. Now that not only low-costs are charging but also KL starts needs some very much getting used to. That's not that strange right?

[Edited 2013-02-13 10:38:21]

User currently offlineRussianJet From Belgium, joined Jul 2007, 7710 posts, RR: 21
Reply 42, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 9984 times:

If it really reduces fares then it shouldn't matter much, but I'm highly sceptical of this claim.


✈ Every strike of the hammer is a blow against the enemy. ✈
User currently offlineokAY From Finland, joined Dec 2006, 669 posts, RR: 0
Reply 43, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 9938 times:

I do not know how it is in America, and when traveling intra-Europe, I do not care what American carriers do. I have taken KL a few times down to BCN from ARN. I could have chosen Ryanair or Norwegian, but went for KL as they offer(ed) free bag allowance.

SK even advertises that 23kg is included in the ticket price. I would say this is one of the things that has, before, at least separated LCC from old school airlines in Europe.


User currently offlineMaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 17659 posts, RR: 46
Reply 44, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 9769 times:

Quoting KaiTak747 (Reply 40):

No it isn't, unlike the US, Europe is not a country. On average people do not fly as often and for different reasons.

None of these really matter in the big picture. Sure there are differences between the EU and US in the same way there are differences between US' hub in DCA versus their hub in PHX, but ultimately, the allocation of resources, costs, and passenger choices are going to create the same issues everywhere.

Quoting airbazar (Reply 38):
That's mainly because of geography, politics, and HSR, all 3 are significantly different than in the US.

I'd say the only difference that is meaningful is politics: whereas CO/UA or DL/NW could merge and really leverage their networks and economies of scale while reducing costs, AF/KL, BA/IB, and LH and all its minions have really just created bigger messes that politics will forever block from truly consolidating. But again, the pressures to do so will still be there, and be just as strong. Something is going to have to give.

Quoting okAY (Reply 43):
SK even advertises that 23kg is included in the ticket price.

SK is perpetually on the brink of implosion.



E pur si muove -Galileo
User currently offlinepadster From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2005, 76 posts, RR: 0
Reply 45, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 9649 times:

Well as a Lifetime Platinum elite member with Flying Blue I am angered with these changes ..

Even at my local Airport the Low Cost carrier Jet 2 offers 1 free bag !

This is an insane concept as now the main 3 partners of Skyteam have radically different baggage concepts ..

DL 1 bag +1 for elite plus
AF 0 bag on mini fares +1 for elite plus
KL 1 bag with any FB card ..

so on KL i predict the overhead luggage bins will be crammed to bursting and gate agents will have a hell of a time in policing this ...


yet again KLM / AF demonstrate short sightedness in their approach .      


User currently offlinecrosswinds21 From Netherlands, joined Jun 2009, 698 posts, RR: 0
Reply 46, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 9482 times:

I think that this is a very interesting move. Is it a positive one? Maybe it is and maybe it isn't. I'm not sure yet. I think that it's obvious that generally speaking, legacy carriers need to adopt the LCC model as much as is reasonably possible on short haul routes in order to not bleed too much cash. However, the problem is that right now, for the leisure type traveller (the type that these baggage fees are targetting), KLM is already hard enough to fly on as is. At least to/from AMS, their fares are not low like they are on LCCs (yes, they do have the 99 Euro round trip fares, but those are not easy to find) and the frequent flyer programme is terrible in terms of awarding miles and costs for redemption. It's also interesting that KLM apparently chooses not to compete against LCCs in terms of offering one way fares. At least from the places that I've flown to, KLM has no discounted one way fares. Period. For example, if you want to fly AMS-TXL one way, you will pay around 400-500 Euros.

So yes, it's true that KLM in many ways is a full service carrier, but when you consider all of the above and also consider the fares that they charge now, coupled with the terrible Flying Blue programme, this already makes them relatively unattractive to fly on. Many people I know here want to fly KLM when possible, but often wind up not doing so simply because it almost always turns out to be uneconomical. So with the addition of the baggage fees, it seems like the choice in favour of LCCs will be become even clearer. Now, it's true that if other legacies match this new fee, that will be good for KLM. However, if they're trying to better compete with LCCs - and not the legacies - then I don't see how they're helping themselves here.


User currently offlineAndyEastMids From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2001, 1018 posts, RR: 2
Reply 47, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 9454 times:

Sadly, another legacy airline that's lost the plot with respect to what it means to be a "proper airline" offering a full-service, versus being a LCC - and to be recognised as such by their customers. Why don't the morons that run these airlines realise that in removing their differentiation from the LCCs, they lower the justification in the passenger's mind for travelling with a full service airline versus a LCC?

User currently offlinetriyuc From Turkey, joined Jan 2006, 1 posts, RR: 0
Reply 48, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 9417 times:

i think klm is going to lose their passenger


by Vectras
User currently offlineVV701 From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2005, 7617 posts, RR: 17
Reply 49, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 9110 times:

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 35):
The US also has 2-3+ decades head start on deregulation;

Deregulation effectively started in the USA on 23 October 1978 when the Airline Deregulation Act was signed by President Carter.

It started in Europe just over nine years later on 1 January 1988. The EU introduced deregulation in three stages. The first stage was completed in 1992. Stage three was completed in 1997. However the rapid expansion of FR, arguably the main beneficiary of EU airline deregulation, dates back to1992 when this Irish airline established a large operational base in the UK at STN. This is illustrative of the additional challenge on the east side of the North Atlantic as here deregulation was not national as in the USA but international.


User currently offlinetoobz From Finland, joined Jan 2010, 799 posts, RR: 0
Reply 50, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 9105 times:

Im with PH. KL has offered very good fares within europe to and from AMS. In this day and age if you need to check a bag in flying within Europe, than pay the 15€. They still allow you to take a bag on board plus a personal item. If you need to bring the kitchen sink then pay the small fee. Its not outrageous at all. Airline prices are at the lowest damn near. Fuel is not. They have to make a profit of some sort. I love all these people who bitch about fees..when you start your own airline and have to match LCC fares, lets see how long you stay in business. This fee like KL stated is for a very few who just cant live without bringing a bunch of stuff. I will continue to fly them with my 1 hand carry on and will not be affected by this.

User currently offlinePolot From United States of America, joined Jul 2011, 2259 posts, RR: 1
Reply 51, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 8940 times:

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 44):
SK is perpetually on the brink of implosion.

In addition to that, I'm not sure I would go around touting SK's European service, especially in Y class, as a high standard for full service carriers.


User currently offlinetoobz From Finland, joined Jan 2010, 799 posts, RR: 0
Reply 52, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 8742 times:

No Polot i wouldnt either..but they are most always the cheapest. Take from that what you like. Most of their flights within Europe are anywhere from 1hr-2hrs. What kind of service do you expect? Have you flown in the US lately? What do you get for fares 2-3 times more and flight alot longer?..hmmm

User currently offlineokAY From Finland, joined Dec 2006, 669 posts, RR: 0
Reply 53, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 8707 times:

Quoting Polot (Reply 51):

When and who did that?


User currently offlineRara From Germany, joined Jan 2007, 2112 posts, RR: 2
Reply 54, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 7606 times:

Quoting crosswinds21 (Reply 46):
Now, it's true that if other legacies match this new fee, that will be good for KLM.

Not really... if other legacies match the new fee, the situation for KL will be pretty much the same as when none of the legacies had the fee. The comparative advantage, if there even was one, will be gone, and the distinction over LCC's will be lost.

That's why charging for bags is a prisoner's dilemma for legacy carriers. It brings more disadvantages than advantages for all involved, but once one airline does it, the others have to follow suit.



Samson was a biblical tough guy, but his dad Samsonite was even more of a hard case.
User currently offlinedavidkunzVIE From Austria, joined Mar 2007, 431 posts, RR: 4
Reply 55, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 4 days ago) and read 7101 times:

Quoting PH-BFA (Reply 12):
Just thinka bout it; it is now considered 'normal' for example that no hot meals are served by legacies on european flights in economy class. Just as it will be normal that the lowest bookable fares do not include checked luggage in the future.

And are we to cheer or what?



DH3 DH4 CR1 CR2 CR7 CR9 F70 732 733 734 73G 738 752 762 763 772 742 743 319 320 321 333 343
User currently offlineinfinit From Singapore, joined Jul 2008, 584 posts, RR: 1
Reply 56, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 7000 times:

Very Dutch of them indeed 

User currently onlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 25638 posts, RR: 22
Reply 57, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 6531 times:

Quoting bongodog1964 (Reply 3):
They will within a short time see less bags being paid for, but very little reduction in costs, whilst giving the impression of heading down the LCC route.

Many passengers within Europe still travel with bags too large for carry-on so they will generate some additional revenue.

Quoting airbazar (Reply 17):
I think this is a bad idea for European legagy carriers but KLM is already the "No frills" carrier of the AF/KLM group

Not sure what you are referring to. In my opinion KLM's service within Europe is as good and in most cases better than all other major carriers. I flew KL and LX quite frequently (42 KLM flights last year, all within Europe) and much prefer KL, and in most cases their fares are lower. They also have excellent on-time performance. As far as AF/KL are concerned, I consider AF the "no frills" menber of the group and I go out of my way to avoid AF, not that their inflight service is much different from KL, but because CDG is such an unpleasant connecting hub compared to AMS. And, unlike AF, KLM never seems to be affected to strikes or other labor disruptions which are so common in France, whether the airline or the airport or the trains to/from the airport etc.etc.


User currently offlinePe@rson From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2001, 19236 posts, RR: 52
Reply 58, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 5778 times:

I notice that KL had an advertisement within today's The Times about its £39 one-way all-in fares - rather than one-way fares considerably more than returns - from a number of UK airports to AMS. It's a shame that it only seems to apply to UK-Amsterdam and not vice-versa. (Note that KL used to offer such fares albeit only from LPL and LBA.)

I am unsure if this has been mentioned previously, but its €15 fee is based upon being prebooked. If it isn't, and if it's done at the airport, it rises to €30 one-way.

[Edited 2013-02-14 01:53:08]


"Everyone writing for the Telegraph knows that the way to grab eyeballs is with Ryanair and/or sex."
User currently offlineLH422 From Germany, joined Sep 2010, 416 posts, RR: 0
Reply 59, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 5659 times:

Quoting YULWinterSkies (Reply 39):
It sure will, but only until others follow. AF is a logical #2 to be expected, and I can't see IB, BA, LH and others resisting very long if this works for KL.

Actually, LH is just starting this by moving all non-FRA and non-MUC flights to Germanwings and charging for the first bag.


User currently offlinesomething From United Kingdom, joined May 2011, 1633 posts, RR: 21
Reply 60, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 5303 times:

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 21):
No, it is identical, hence why all the EU and Asian carriers are trying the same exact things that US carriers have been doing for years.

Everytime any airline somewhere on earth moves away from any type of service, you come a'-knockin' and lecture us how ''soon the whole world will be like the USA, that are so far ahead of the rest of the world''. It's kind of annoying 'cause it's rarely true.

Quoting Vinniewinnie (Reply 26):
Untrue for several very good reasons (on top of my head) :

- Air has High Speed Rail and Car competition, America only has bus
- Ultra Low-Cost airlines are common in Europe, non in the US
- Total trop distances are far shorter in Europe than in the US
- Competition is fierce in Europe, not so much (anymore) in the US

Another thing you cannot discount is the fact that travel patterns in Europe are simply completely different from those in the US. The USA is one big country - the EU are many small countries. It is uncommon for a German family to have family in Portugal that they visit regularly. How many New Yorkers have family in Florida though? It is uncommon for a Finnish company to send their employees back and forth to their Italy branch but how many people travel between New York and Chicago?

Europeans also get a lot more vacation days compared to the average American. Europeans also like to leave their own country when going on vacation, as opposed to Americans, which makes leisure oriented airlines much more susceptible to foreign competition. Which is why even US airlines match their luggage allowance to that of the flag carriers of the region they're flying to. I believe UA still gives you two free checked bags on flights to Brazil or Japan, one to Europe, charges $70 for the second bag to Hong Kong, but $100 for the second bag to Europe etc. Which suggests that it does matter what the competition does. It lies within the nature of Europe that international air travel far outweighs domestic air travel.

Another quite fundamental difference is that to my understanding, additional revenue is tax-free in the USA. It is not in Europe. Though I may be wrong about that.

Quoting SASMD82 (Reply 30):
Isn't it much more feasible to check weight and size of hand luggage to avoid problems in cabin? In stead of punishing people who check in luggage? A typical Dutch attitude will become reality now I think -> to save money. The way to do now it to squeeze as much as luggage as possible in their hand luggage trolley now.

Air Berlin will weigh and measure your carry-on luggage if you book their new fare class ''fly only'', which includes one carry-on item but no checked bags.

Quoting airbazar (Reply 33):
Quoting Polot (Reply 19):
If an extra 15 euros deters people from flying then KLM was probably selling them junk fares to begin with that made the airline no money.
Quoting Polot (Reply 19):
Well if they are flying intercontinental then the fees don't apply. If they are flying for a European vacation then they have to tough it out and pay the fees just like Americans do. Europeans are not that different.

Or they can fly with someone else.

B6 doesn't charge for checked luggage and that has in the past benefitted them at least from this occasional visitor to the USA.

The problem is that people are mostly stupid. They see the displayed fare and rarely consider all the additional fees in the same sense that people seem to never consider the cost of ownership, but only the price of gas, when driving their car. Then some people sue the airline for false advertizement, some consumer protection agency makes airlines display all fees upfront and people will still not do the math.

SQ will still allow 2x 23kg bags on their FRA-JFK route. US airlines have similar charges, plus more, eg. liquor. If you add all those little extra expenses up, SQ will in many cases be the cheaper alternative while providing vastly superior service on vastly superior aircraft. People don't get that though. People, at least here, take SkyTrax seriously. In the longrun however, SQ has established an immaculate reputation for themselves. A reputation that alone merits higher fares while Air Berlin - a perceived 'cheapskate' airline - has problems filling their much smaller planes at all.

Quoting airbazar (Reply 33):
However with the majority of pax being intercontinental connections the airline won't save on costs and the revenue is likely to be negligible. That's why no other full service European carrier has dared charge for 1st bag.

While, as previously explained, charging many little as opposed to one big fee can work in the airline's favor, I think this move will ultimately tarnish KLM's reputation more than that'll increase overall revenue. People fly KLM for quality - otherwise they would have already migrated to the LCC competition. The only advantage KLM will have left over LCCs is their more comprehensive network which, in my opinion, is the only area in which they stand any chance of generating any revenue with this fee at all. They will still need to retain their ground and baggage handling services/facilities, they'll have more administrative fees and slower turn-around times as people will just bring larger carry-on items on board (which also wears (damages) the interior of the aircraft down). The Europe-Europe connections KL offers will be hurt the most as they are in direct competition with all the airlines that don't charge for checked baggage - although not everybody will know this or take it into consideration.

In the net sum KL will have fewer travellers, higher overhead (administration) and a little extra revenue from a few flights where they're not exposed to LCC competition. If that proves a positive bottom line still, good on them. I highly doubt it does. And who believes that they'll gain customers through the ''lower fares'' this fee is supposed to allow for, has to stop kidding themselves.

Quoting YULWinterSkies (Reply 39):
AF is a logical #2 to be expected, and I can't see IB, BA, LH and others resisting very long if this works for KL.

LH has their Germanwings subsidiary for that. LH mainline will not start charging for bags anytime soon. That type of move would not go down well with Germans. Mercedes can bring out the A-Class, or the CLA, Porsche the Boxter/Cayman and those are great earners. But if Mercedes started to offer stripped down versions of the S-Class, or Porsche of the 911, their customers would migrate to some other ''real'' premium product.

Quoting KaiTak747 (Reply 40):
I agree, the reason why, for example, I like to fly BA over EZ is that it is a 'full service' experience. You pay a little more, but you are in a more comfortable seat, get a free drink and snack and a free checked bag.

If they even are more expensive, which, once you add all fees up, in my experience is rarely the case.



..sick of it. -K. Pilkington.
User currently offlineLuftyMatt From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2009, 428 posts, RR: 0
Reply 61, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 5110 times:

Quoting ju068 (Reply 5):
So does that mean that connecting passengers will also have to pay for the luggage? If so then this move is a very stupid one and they will lose a lot of customers to Lufthansa, British Airways and others

I completley agree with you. They make a big thing about connecting people to the rest of the world, but this move will put them out of favour with their connecting passengers. (who represent a large percentage on European flights)



chase the sun
User currently offliner2rho From Germany, joined Feb 2007, 2678 posts, RR: 1
Reply 62, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 4757 times:

Quoting LH422 (Reply 59):
LH is just starting this by moving all non-FRA and non-MUC flights to Germanwings and charging for the first bag.
Quoting something (Reply 60):
Air Berlin will weigh and measure your carry-on luggage if you book their new fare class ''fly only'', which includes one carry-on item but no checked bags.

Exactly. And the same goes for the new AF mini fares. And this is what I believe KL will start doing. Offer a lower fare level in addition to the current fares, with no bag, no miles, etc. But you can still continue to book the current "classic" fare, like on LH-4U, AB, some AF routes, or IB Express.

Today we just have a few lines on a Dutch news site about this, nothing official or from a more credible source close to the industry, we are overspeculating about this.

Quoting Rara (Reply 54):
if other legacies match the new fee, the situation for KL will be pretty much the same as when none of the legacies had the fee. The comparative advantage, if there even was one, will be gone, and the distinction over LCC's will be lost.

That's why charging for bags is a prisoner's dilemma for legacy carriers. It brings more disadvantages than advantages for all involved, but once one airline does it, the others have to follow suit.

  

Quoting something (Reply 60):
A reputation that alone merits higher fares while Air Berlin - a perceived 'cheapskate' airline - has problems filling their much smaller planes at all.

Indeed - AB's service level, at least in economy, and on all classes intra-EU, is on par with the legacies, but it is still perceived as a cheap carrier due to its LCC origins.


User currently offlineMaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 17659 posts, RR: 46
Reply 63, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 4692 times:

Quoting VV701 (Reply 49):
This is illustrative of the additional challenge on the east side of the North Atlantic as here deregulation was not national as in the USA but international.

The provides more obstacles than anything. it's not like say, Germany and France can deregulate and KL/SN stay isolated from deregulation. Once you open the market to vigorous competition, the same trajectory is followed, because people ultimately want the same things.

Quoting something (Reply 60):
It's kind of annoying 'cause it's rarely true.

Ha. I think I enjoy pointing it out so much because if attitudes like this. So KL is charging for bags because...they are European?

Quoting something (Reply 60):
Another thing you cannot discount is the fact that travel patterns in Europe are simply completely different from those in the US.

So what?



E pur si muove -Galileo
User currently offlineQuokkas From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 64, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 4599 times:

Quoting something (Reply 60):
The problem is that people are mostly stupid.

Ignorance, lack of awareness, lack of savoir faire are not the same as stupid. On a forum like this we can pride ourselves as being more aware but that is only because we pay more interest, not because we are less stupid. Don't believe me? Head over to the non-aviation forum. [joke]

I do get where you are coming from but lack of awareness and experience is not synonymous with stupidity. That is why in some jurisdictions there are concerted efforts to provide for greater price transparency. The price you see quoted is what you pay and not you pay that plus plus plus... I am far from stupid (though I may not be qualified to make that call  ) but in my mind any company that is unwilling to display the final price upfront is dishonest and not worth flying with.

But that aside, I do not have a problem of airlines making it clear that checking in baggage is extra. The only grumble that I might have is where they claim that making check-in baggage an option will lead to lower fares all round but the fares charged are in practice no lower or the reduction is less than amount charged for the baggage. If they charge €15 for a suitcase and drop the fares by €14 then they have effectively increased fares by €1. It may not be much but it is still an increase. To market it as a reduction is deception however small the amount.

I await what actually happens with KLM to see which path they follow: transparency or deception. Then I can make a decision on whether to choose them in future.


User currently offlinesomething From United Kingdom, joined May 2011, 1633 posts, RR: 21
Reply 65, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 4555 times:

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 63):
Quoting something (Reply 60):
It's kind of annoying 'cause it's rarely true.

Ha. I think I enjoy pointing it out so much because if attitudes like this. So KL is charging for bags because...they are European?

We don't know that yet for certain. For all we know, this ''news'' may be entirely untrue. Maybe KL will only introduce a new fare class that doesn't include checked baggage. Maybe they will soon charge for every bag. We shall see. What I am in disagreement with is the notion that the rest of the world's aviation industry will inevitably follow through the same developments as that in the USA. The USA have a certain way of doing business, and so do other countries. Those need not necessarily be the same. Neither are the market dynamics of different markets.

By the way, neither Southwest nor JetBlue charge for checked bags as far as I know. Both are airlines that have virtually introduced, or in Southwest's case arguably invented, the model of a low cost carrier. But that doesn't mean that Ryanair will soon carry your bags for free.

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 63):
Quoting something (Reply 60):
Another thing you cannot discount is the fact that travel patterns in Europe are simply completely different from those in the US.

So what?

People have different travel needs here. The type of ''3 hour travel'' from Chicago, New York or Washington has a completely different set of travellers than ''3 hour travel'' from Paris, Frankfurt or London. Besides, Americans have a much higher tolerance for hidden fees, than Europeans. You go to any ''$3 winter sale'' and buy 10 items. You and I both know that your total will be anything but $30. Go to a restaurant that advertizes $5 meals and see what your total including gratuity, tips and taxes and extra charges is going to end up as. To me, as a European, that always feels disingenous and borderline deceptive. I wouldn't fly Aer Lingus for that exact reason by the way, even though their fares are sometimes very low. But I just don't want to put up with that BS and I am inclined to believe neither would many other Europeans for the exact same reasons. For the record, I have never flown Ryanair, nor am will I, either.

There is obviously a market for this type of travel but as a legacy carrier, that just ain't your turf. You can't beat a competing company by mimicking what they have built their entire business case around. Obviously, KL along with every other airline have to keep their costs down to remain competitive. But unless you are serious about it and cramp the airplane with tight seats, charge for every amenity for everyone, etc. how much money are you really going to save? I doubt that this saving will translate into low enough fares to attract enough new customers to offset the loss of customers they will - in my opinion inevitably - suffer from this* move.

* this = charging for bags for some travellers. Which at this point is not even confirmed by the airline.

Quoting Quokkas (Reply 64):
Ignorance, lack of awareness, lack of savoir faire are not the same as stupid. On a forum like this we can pride ourselves as being more aware but that is only because we pay more interest, not because we are less stupid.

While I acknowledge the judging overtone ''stupid'' holds, I have to stand by my assertion. In the time and age of the internet, doing the most basic research on the product you are going to spend what represents in most cases a not insignificant portion of your disposable income on is something every reasonable person would do. If you are not reasonable, you are stupid. You are of course right in insinuating that my classification of the travelling public as ''stupid'' may only be partially applicable - and that in many other cases the traveller just lacks the time, the savvy or the mean to do their research but in my experience these ignorant travellers represent a minority of the travelling public.

But that was not my point. Airlines build up reputations, or Skytrax ratings, that people will blindly follow. Not every traveller will know that KL now charges for bags, not every traveller knows that Singapore will give you two checked bags with any economy ticket on FRA-JFK you buy. But virtually every traveller knows that Singapore Airlines is ''better'' than KLM which is why flying SQ on AMS-SIN or FRA-JFK is always more expensive than flying those routes (AMS-JFK) on KLM.

KLM needs to distinguish their brand and reinforce their brand identity. People who want to fly ''cheap'', will still fly EasyJet because that's what they've heard is the good thing to do. How is KL going to compete with them anyway? And people who want to fly ''quality'' will continue to spend the occasional extra Euro to fly on a legacy. If KL now enters the LCC territory with their mainline flights, they will be viewed as neither and I am most doubtful that this is going to benefit their brand in the longrun. The establishment of subsidiaries like Germanwings of Lufthansa or Scoot of Singapore Airlines are indications to corroborate my suspicion.



..sick of it. -K. Pilkington.
User currently offlineQuokkas From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 66, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 4549 times:

Quoting something (Reply 60):
LH has their Germanwings subsidiary for that. LH mainline will not start charging for bags anytime soon.

If LH are shifting a large proportion of their flights on to Germanwings that point is mute. If LH is shifting all bar FRA and MUC to 4U, that means a large proportion of passengers will be faced with an additional charge that they previously did not face. An airline simply shifting passengers onto another service provider does not mean that passengers do not end up paying separately for what was previously included in the fare. (Whether the final price is more or less needs to be proved.)

Actually, given the enthusiasm for billing everything possible separately, I am wondering why passengers are not weighed. After all, it must surely cost (marginally) less to freight a 80kg person than to freight a 160kg person. Why should a person who weighs 80kg pay the same as a person who requires more fuel to shift?

OK, there is the cost of setting up means to shift suitcases. But these (means) are in place already so it comes down to a charge for using them. The more that the facilities are used the lower the unit cost. Economics 101 for those who like to quote such nonsense. It would be useful to have an independent analysis of what the actual cost of checking a suitcase is: in minutes of actual baggage handling compared to the unchecked weight of cabin baggage? There is no fee applied to someone carrying the case aboard but what actaul fuel is consumed in carrying it? Is it more or is it less? Does the difference (assuming it to be less) exceed the cost of check -in? What actual scientific studies have been made to justify any change? Does the saving in pre-checking exceed the cost of checking at the gate? Fact is that there is a lot of guess work. Airlines assume a bag weighs xkg, they assume a male passenger weighs ykg, they assume a child weighs zkg. If you want to be so petty to insist that bags be weighed because it may save you a euro or three, will you be equally delighted to pay an extra euro or three because you (personally) weigh more than the allotted xkg? My guess is no. Not because of a fear or embarrassment that you may be regarded as fat but simply because you don't want to pay more. Sauce for geese and sauce for ganders? No way.

Lots of questions and I hope there are some informed answers. The blanket "why shoul,d I subsidise?" doesn't really work if there is no real evidence that anyone is actually subsidising anyone else. So. Lets have some independent research into the question. Links, please.  


User currently offlinePe@rson From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2001, 19236 posts, RR: 52
Reply 67, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 4561 times:



Quoting something (Reply 65):
Which at this point is not even confirmed by the airline
Quoting something (Reply 65):
For all we know, this ''news'' may be entirely untrue

It is confirmed:

http://www.klm.com/travel/gb_en/camp.../index.htm?wt.seg_3=HP_wide_1stbag

[Edited 2013-02-14 08:46:04]


"Everyone writing for the Telegraph knows that the way to grab eyeballs is with Ryanair and/or sex."
User currently offlineQuokkas From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 68, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 4508 times:

Thanks for the link Pe@rson.

I wonder what is the logic behind

Quote:
You are flying to and from Belarus, Georgia, Italy, Russia, Turkey or the Ukraine.

Is it because of what airlines from those countries offer on flights to AMS or is it because the local laws prevent the charge?

I know that some airlines from Australia offer different baggage allowances depending on destination (for example to Europe it is by weight whereas to the US it is by piece) so I wonder of some similar restrictions prevent KL from applying uniform rules on all routes.


User currently offlineMaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 17659 posts, RR: 46
Reply 69, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 4462 times:

Quoting something (Reply 65):
What I am in disagreement with is the notion that the rest of the world's aviation industry will inevitably follow through the same developments as that in the USA

The cost of aircraft, fuel, and labor are all pretty close no matter where you are on earth, and people's willingness to pay for anything above and beyond a seat from A to B is no different whether you're in LAX, CDG, or Timbuktu. Once the market is freed to competition, the results are going to be more or less the same, and every day we see airlines trying things that US carriers are either already doing, or tried and failed. It's not that the US model is necessarily right, but that it is the most mature market by far.

Quoting something (Reply 65):
By the way, neither Southwest nor JetBlue charge for checked bags as far as I know

Both are still focused on increasing ancillary fees, and while WN has boxed themselves in with the bags-fly-free mantra, one or both of them could add bag fees at any time, IT permitting. Regardless, neither carrier is shying away from additional fees.

Quoting something (Reply 65):
People have different travel needs here.

I don't think that's really true, but regardless, it doesn't matter. Whether they fly weekly or once a year, there are passengers in the US/Asia/etc that have the same travel patterns, and more importantly, their elasticity of demand on the whole is identical, and it's demonstrated daily.



E pur si muove -Galileo
User currently offlineokAY From Finland, joined Dec 2006, 669 posts, RR: 0
Reply 70, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 4270 times:

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 69):

Airline industry is indeed much more mature in America than it is here. I would even dare to say that in Europe people are still somehow hanging on to the old times, especially through national carriers. Also, the attitudes towards the industry are different, in America, taking a flight is like taking a bus. I remember once hearing an American saying to phone "I take the 7h30 to La Guardia". No airline, no flight number mentioned. At least I do not know any country in Europe that would refer to flights like this. It just goes to tell how people see air travel differently in America and Europe.

I'm a little disappointed of KL's decision to introduce the bag fee. It just does not seem to fit KL's image. I understand times are changing and they need to make money, but I cannot but see it as something that makes KL look cheap, like LCC. But then again the difference between the two different models is ever narrowing. I wonder how much this is going to affect people choosing train over flight?

Im basic level FlyingBlue member. Do I qualify as frequent flyer and still get my bag checked in for free?


User currently offlineB747forever From Sweden, joined May 2007, 17079 posts, RR: 10
Reply 71, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 4245 times:

Quoting okAY (Reply 70):
Im basic level FlyingBlue member. Do I qualify as frequent flyer and still get my bag checked in for free?

I am also at the most basic level (ivory) and according to the email from KLM I will not have pay the checked bag fee.



Work Hard, Fly Right
User currently offlineokAY From Finland, joined Dec 2006, 669 posts, RR: 0
Reply 72, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 4201 times:

Interesting point: Italy is excluded as a country from the bag fee. Anyone knows why?

User currently offlineADent From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 1390 posts, RR: 2
Reply 73, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 4175 times:

Well it comes down to raise fares for every one 5 euros or charge a bag fee of 15 euros for 1/3 of its travelers.

In the USA people would rather pay the lower airfare (and clog the overhead bins).


User currently offlineLondonCity From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2008, 1506 posts, RR: 0
Reply 74, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 4164 times:

Quoting B747forever (Reply 71):
I am also at the most basic level (ivory) and according to the email from KLM I will not have pay the checked bag fee

That is true. But I wonder for how long KLM will provide this offer to all Flying Blue members ? I suspect that, after an initial period, KLM will only grant this concession to elite tier Flying Blue members.


User currently offlineSpeedbird741 From Portugal, joined Aug 2008, 654 posts, RR: 0
Reply 75, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 4114 times:

I sincerely hope this is not true. Other carriers would unfortunately be bound to follow in KLM's steps and, before we would know it, our airlines would be surviving on imposed fees like airlines in the States. They would also progressively come to be hated by the flying public and would become a mere means of transport, and they are not mere means of transport in Europe!

Quoting something (Reply 60):
Quoting something (Reply 65):

Bless you, my friend!

Quoting something (Reply 60):
Everytime any airline somewhere on earth moves away from any type of service, you come a'-knockin' and lecture us how ''soon the whole world will be like the USA, that are so far ahead of the rest of the world''. It's kind of annoying 'cause it's rarely true.

And bless you again!

Speedbird741



Boa noite Faro, Air Portugal 257 climbing flight level 340
User currently offlineLondonCity From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2008, 1506 posts, RR: 0
Reply 76, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 4085 times:

Quoting Speedbird741 (Reply 75):
I sincerely hope this is not true. Other carriers would unfortunately be bound to follow in KLM's steps and, before we would know it, our airlines would be surviving on imposed fees like airlines in the States

But it is true. Here is a report in today's Huffington Post:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/0...-fees-dutch-airline_n_2685323.html


User currently offlinePolot From United States of America, joined Jul 2011, 2259 posts, RR: 1
Reply 77, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 4072 times:

Quoting Speedbird741 (Reply 75):
I sincerely hope this is not true. Other carriers would unfortunately be bound to follow in KLM's steps and, before we would know it, our airlines would be surviving on imposed fees like airlines in the States. They would also progressively come to be hated by the flying public and would become a mere means of transport, and they are not mere means of transport in Europe!

You mean how FR and U2 have just been outright rejected by the European public? Sorry to inform you, but airlines are just mere means of transport in Europe just as they are in the US. The European mindset or attitude towards airlines is not significantly different.

[Edited 2013-02-14 14:26:26]

User currently offlineSpeedbird741 From Portugal, joined Aug 2008, 654 posts, RR: 0
Reply 78, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 4025 times:

Quoting Polot (Reply 77):
You mean how FR and U2 have just been outright rejected by the European public?

Those airlines have nothing to do with KLM as they are build on a low cost model and operate as they are supposed to. This is, quite obviously, why the so called traditional airlines are thought to offer a different product versus low cost airlines. Let us stick to discussing traditional airlines, which is the category that KLM fits best.

Quoting Polot (Reply 77):
Sorry to inform you, but airlines are just mere means of transport in Europe just as they are in the US

Negative, they are not. There is a reason why airlines in Europe don't go about merging themselves and retiring one of the merged parties' names from the public eye. Hell would break loose in Spain if Iberia's name and brand were to disappear entirely in lieu of the British Airways brand, just as it would break loose in France if Air France were to disappear as we know in order to become KLM. The same reasoning applies to Swiss, Austrian, and SN Brussels. There is also a reason why TAP Portugal's privatization process is such a heated and emotional debate in Portuguese society, and it happens to be the very reason for which the privatization has yet to take place. The reason for all of these events is that European legacy airlines - flag carriers, in other words - are national symbols, which are looked at with a tremendous sense of pride and belonging. Put simply, never would equivalents of Northwest Airlines, TWA, and PAN AM have disappeared without a huge uproar from the public and even from governments.

Speedbird741



Boa noite Faro, Air Portugal 257 climbing flight level 340
User currently offlineSuperCaravelle From Netherlands, joined Jan 2012, 253 posts, RR: 0
Reply 79, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 3986 times:

Quoting LondonCity (Reply 74):
That is true. But I wonder for how long KLM will provide this offer to all Flying Blue members ? I suspect that, after an initial period, KLM will only grant this concession to elite tier Flying Blue members.

Alternatively, they are trying to get people to sign up for Flying Blue (which isn't hard after all), hoping to attract regular customers in the process. After all, you either pay for the bag or sign up for free.


User currently offlinePolot From United States of America, joined Jul 2011, 2259 posts, RR: 1
Reply 80, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 3904 times:

Quoting Speedbird741 (Reply 78):

The reason they keep the name around is yes, because they are national symbols. That doesn't mean that they would be rejected for cutting service. AA, UA, DL are all national symbols in the US. They all charge for bags. Your examples are not the best because it involves the name of another country/or something associated with another country, taking over. Such as British Airways in lieu of Iberia. There would be less outroar if Iberia was to be renamed TransEuropa or something. Its funny how you bring up Brussels Airlines as a national symbol though. Have you ever flown them short haul (I have). Their service aligns much closer to an LCC than a full service carrier, as does SAS for example.


User currently offlineLutfi From China, joined Sep 2000, 778 posts, RR: 0
Reply 81, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 3825 times:

LCC have a 36-37% share in Europe. So have been pretty successful as has been pointed out.

Full service for flights of 2-3 hours is just silly IMHO.


User currently offlineluckyone From United States of America, joined Aug 2008, 2186 posts, RR: 0
Reply 82, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 3787 times:

Quoting something (Reply 60):
LH has their Germanwings subsidiary for that. LH mainline will not start charging for bags anytime soon. That type of move would not go down well with Germans. Mercedes can bring out the A-Class, or the CLA, Porsche the Boxter/Cayman and those are great earners. But if Mercedes started to offer stripped down versions of the S-Class, or Porsche of the 911, their customers would migrate to some other ''real'' premium product.

Germans don't mind paying the fees with the likes of every LCC serving Germany, including their own, Air Berlin. And as has been mentioned, Germanwings is already taking over many domestic Lufthansa flights, and will most likely take more in the future. Lufthansa and all the majors are offering A and S class products in the same vehicle--an airplane. You want S-class trimmings, pay S-class price.

Quoting something (Reply 65):
Americans have a much higher tolerance for hidden fees, than Europeans

I find that hard to believe with the likes of Ryanair and Easyjet and Germanwings getting bigger and bigger. You'll note, when a Ryanair-style carrier has been attempted to be emulated in the US (SkyBus) it was a miserable failure.


User currently offlineB747forever From Sweden, joined May 2007, 17079 posts, RR: 10
Reply 83, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 3775 times:

Quoting luckyone (Reply 82):

I find that hard to believe with the likes of Ryanair and Easyjet and Germanwings getting bigger and bigger. You'll note, when a Ryanair-style carrier has been attempted to be emulated in the US (SkyBus) it was a miserable failure.

Well we have Spirit that even charges for carry-on luggage



Work Hard, Fly Right
User currently offliner2rho From Germany, joined Feb 2007, 2678 posts, RR: 1
Reply 84, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 3518 times:

Quoting ADent (Reply 73):
In the USA people would rather pay the lower airfare (and clog the overhead bins).

Talking about differences between EU and US, clogging the overheads is definitely one. I have seen carry-ons on US flights which would be unthinkable here. EU airlines are very strict about enforcing carry-on size, not just FR&U2 but the legacies. You have much less room to play and are forced to check your bag much more often than in the US.

Quoting Quokkas (Reply 66):
If LH are shifting a large proportion of their flights on to Germanwings that point is mute. If LH is shifting all bar FRA and MUC to 4U, that means a large proportion of passengers will be faced with an additional charge that they previously did not face.

Common misconception... you can still book the classic LH fare on 4U, with all the usual frills. But you have the option of booking a lower fare with no frills. This tiered fare model is what most EU legacies are moving to, see also AF mini / Hop! and IB Express. I expect KL to do the same, that is to introduce a new fare class, not a general baggage fee.

Quoting LondonCity (Reply 76):

But it is true. Here is a report in today's Huffington Post:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/0....html

Just a requote... I'd still like to see another source, ideally industry-related.


User currently offlineokAY From Finland, joined Dec 2006, 669 posts, RR: 0
Reply 85, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 3500 times:

Quoting r2rho (Reply 84):

It is confirmed by KLM, check reply 67 for a link.


User currently onlinemax999 From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 1072 posts, RR: 0
Reply 86, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 3459 times:

Quoting r2rho (Reply 84):
Talking about differences between EU and US, clogging the overheads is definitely one. I have seen carry-ons on US flights which would be unthinkable here. EU airlines are very strict about enforcing carry-on size, not just FR&U2 but the legacies. You have much less room to play and are forced to check your bag much more often than in the US.

Blame that clogging on the checked bag fees from the US airlines; they are incentivizing the customers to carry on as much as possible.

I think most travelers around the world carry a reasonable and similar amount of luggage for shorter, domestic trips. The only difference between US and European travelers is where the stuff is placed (carry on / checked). If European airlines start charging checked bag fees across the board I believe the same incentives will cause Europeans travelers to start clogging the overhead bins, too. This is not a cultural US vs. EU thing, it's just how human beings respond to monetary incentives.



All the things I really like to do are either immoral, illegal, or fattening.
User currently offlineokAY From Finland, joined Dec 2006, 669 posts, RR: 0
Reply 87, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 3150 times:

Quoting max999 (Reply 86):

The only difference being that Euro-carriers are strict with hand luggage. When I worked as ground staff at HEL the crew of any airline would come with murder on mind to the gate if we had let too big bags onto the plane.


User currently offlinelexer From Italy, joined Sep 2005, 160 posts, RR: 0
Reply 88, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 3108 times:

I think it is an interesting move to charge for bags, one that should be mandatory for all airlines all over the world.

The one thing I like about the no-frills airlines is that they show the cost to passengers of transporting weight. It acts as an incentive to pack lightly and efficiently, and this is necessary to save fuel and carbon emissions.

Global warming is real and everybody needs to contribute. The aspect of cost recovery or profit for the airlines is totally irrelevant as far as i'm concerned.


User currently offlineRara From Germany, joined Jan 2007, 2112 posts, RR: 2
Reply 89, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 3058 times:

Quoting lexer (Reply 88):
Global warming is real and everybody needs to contribute.

The key to doing something against global warming is staying at home, not packing light bags. With one medium-haul return flight, I already cause more emissions than I could responsibly cause in a whole year. The size of my baggage hardly makes it worse.



Samson was a biblical tough guy, but his dad Samsonite was even more of a hard case.
User currently offlinelexer From Italy, joined Sep 2005, 160 posts, RR: 0
Reply 90, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 3013 times:

Quoting Rara (Reply 89):
The key to doing something against global warming is staying at home, not packing light bags. With one medium-haul return flight, I already cause more emissions than I could responsibly cause in a whole year. The size of my baggage hardly makes it worse.

Sure, I agree with that. But showing cost will help, if only to educate about cause and effect, and hopefully chip away at the sense of entitlement regarding 'free' polluting.

But I do recognize your point that measures far more drastic are necessary, including drastically reducing mobility.


User currently offliner2rho From Germany, joined Feb 2007, 2678 posts, RR: 1
Reply 91, posted (1 year 8 months 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 2507 times:

So it seems indeed that this will be a true LCC-style baggage fee, rather than an additional fare option, as other carriers (notably AF) are doing, and as I was expecting/hoping.   

I just received an e-mail saying that as a Flying Blue Silver member, I will have the right to 1 free checked bag - versus 2 up to now.... Will I still be able to carry 2 bags on AF? I wonder, what happens if I book i.e. outbound with AF via CDG and return with KL via AMS, as can frequently be the case with AF-KL? Why introduce this service inconsistency within the airline group? It would have been so easy to just copy the "AF mini" fares...

Now, normally one would say: "no big deal, 6 months later all EU carriers will have done the same, KL will not suffer."

But, contrary to the US, EU legacies are all introducing tiered fare structures rather than straight LCC-style fees. KL will stand alone among the legacies on this, and lose attractivenes for intra-EU flying. KL is much more dependent on connections and has a much smaller O&D base to force this fee upon... when taking luggage, why should one now fly KL via AMS, when you can fly LH via MUC, or AF via CDG, etc, and avoid the baggage fees? There is no obligation to fly via AMS, customers will transfer elsewhere.

Quoting okAY (Reply 85):
It is confirmed by KLM, check reply 67 for a link.

Somehow I had missed that post, thanks.

Quoting max999 (Reply 86):
If European airlines start charging checked bag fees across the board I believe the same incentives will cause Europeans travelers to start clogging the overhead bins, too.

Except that in Europe you can't clog the overheads in a US fashion, because size rules are strictly enforced by all carriers, not just LCCs. It is significantly easier to get around checked bag fees in the US due to laxer controls. In the EU, checking a bag is much more difficult to avoid.


User currently offlinePH-BFA From Netherlands, joined Apr 2002, 562 posts, RR: 1
Reply 92, posted (1 year 8 months 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 2496 times:

Quoting r2rho (Reply 91):
when taking luggage, why should one now fly KL via AMS, when you can fly LH via MUC, or AF via CDG, etc, and avoid the baggage fees

because you neither have to pay with KLM when flying via AMS as a transit pax...


User currently offlineBongodog1964 From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2006, 3635 posts, RR: 3
Reply 93, posted (1 year 8 months 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 2490 times:

With BA announcing yesterday that they will be trialling "bagless" fares on a few routes, following on from this KL decision last week, the free checked in bag on European carriers looks doomed.

User currently offlinetoobz From Finland, joined Jan 2010, 799 posts, RR: 0
Reply 94, posted (1 year 8 months 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 2389 times:

Yes I agree. Living in the US for over 20 years I am still shocked at the bags people bring on board. It is very much more strict in Europe. And it is enforced vs in the US not so much. Unfortunately cabin crew get to deal with big baggage issues instead of it being caught at the gate.

User currently onlineairbazar From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 8481 posts, RR: 10
Reply 95, posted (1 year 8 months 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 2335 times:

Quoting YULWinterSkies (Reply 39):
Maybe that was the expected effect. In reality, it means race to the boarding process among pax, full overhead cabin storage space delaying boarding, and commonly, last minute bag check at the gate, which costs time and money to the airlines.

Legacy carriers don't usually operate on tight turnaround schedules like the LCC's do.

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 44):
I'd say the only difference that is meaningful is politics: whereas CO/UA or DL/NW could merge and really leverage their networks and economies of scale while reducing costs, AF/KL, BA/IB, and LH and all its minions have really just created bigger messes that politics will forever block from truly consolidating. But again, the pressures to do so will still be there, and be just as strong. Something is going to have to give.

It's all three: geography, politics and HSR. Europe is a much more densely populated area. People tend to live in cities more than in suburbs, and these cities are only a few hundred miles apart, as opposed to thousands of miles apart like in the US. In this scenario, HSR is a viable alternative to flying. In the US even in the densely populated Northeast region this is not an option. Boston to NYC is still a 4+ hour drive and a 3+ hour train ride but a lot of the people doing the trip don't actually live in either Boston or NYC, adding even more to the overland travel time. So the plane is the better option for many. And if anyone wants to trval any further then forget it, there's no other option.

Quoting something (Reply 60):
How many New Yorkers have family in Florida though?

All of them? 

The European carriers are creating their own form of "deregulatory evolution" that won't be like the US. Case in point:
BA To Trial Hand Baggage Only Fares (by seansasLCY Feb 19 2013 in Civil Aviation)


User currently offliner2rho From Germany, joined Feb 2007, 2678 posts, RR: 1
Reply 96, posted (1 year 8 months 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 2081 times:

Quoting PH-BFA (Reply 92):
because you neither have to pay with KLM when flying via AMS as a transit pax...

Yes you do... for intra-EU, which is what I was talking about. You only avoid the fee when transferring intercontinental.

Quoting Bongodog1964 (Reply 93):
With BA announcing yesterday that they will be trialling "bagless" fares on a few routes, following on from this KL decision last week, the free checked in bag on European carriers looks doomed.

No, the BA approach is quite different, it's a new tiered fare structure with different levels of service, like the new AF Mini, or like what AB, 4U, VY already have, it's not a direct fee. See the linked BA thread.


User currently offlineozglobal From France, joined Nov 2004, 2723 posts, RR: 4
Reply 97, posted (1 year 8 months 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 2074 times:

Quoting Polot (Reply 14):
Quoting CrimsonNL (Reply 6):
Yes but the European public will only associate pay-for-bags with LCC's, not with an airline like KLM!

People here said the exact same thing when American carriers (I think US was the first, but maybe it was AA) started charging for bags on domestic flights.

And we were and are totally right! US carriers do have the reputation of LCCs in Europe. KLM will join them with this self defeating policy. In the US I always sit on the tarmac delayed for 20mns whilst the passengers try to jam their steamer trunks into the overhead lockers. Inevitably, half a dozen bags are 'offloaded' and moved to baggage hold ANYWAY. KLM will suffer similarly in on time departures unless, unlike the US carriers, they very strictly filter the cabin baggage. Their long haul flights will now be delayed by the knock on effect of this mess.

Another reason not to use KLM (don't worry, I'm no fan of AF).

An exercise in futility.



When all's said and done, there'll be more said than done.
User currently offlineBongodog1964 From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2006, 3635 posts, RR: 3
Reply 98, posted (1 year 8 months 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 1997 times:

Quoting r2rho (Reply 96):
Quoting Bongodog1964 (Reply 93):With BA announcing yesterday that they will be trialling "bagless" fares on a few routes, following on from this KL decision last week, the free checked in bag on European carriers looks doomed.
No, the BA approach is quite different, it's a new tiered fare structure with different levels of service, like the new AF Mini, or like what AB, 4U, VY already have, it's not a direct fee. See the linked BA thread.

The only difference I can see is that KL have said "you will now pay extra for a bag", whilst the BA trial on selected routes is worded as "there's a discount for not checking a bag" The end result is that there's a basic fare that doesn't include a checked bag, and an extra charge for one. On day 1 BA looks more generous, as it appears that they are reducing the fare for no bag. In the passage of time however it will all even itself out

It is a direct fee pure and simple, if you are travelling economy and want to check a bag you pay extra.

As to the"different levels of service" the website makes it clear, the only differential between the two fares is a checked 23kg bag, whereas with some airlines the differential is a package including things such as a checked bag, drink, snack, and priority seating.


User currently onlineairbazar From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 8481 posts, RR: 10
Reply 99, posted (1 year 8 months 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 1904 times:

Quoting Bongodog1964 (Reply 98):
It is a direct fee pure and simple, if you are travelling economy and want to check a bag you pay extra.

The perception is completely different and it's not an extra fee, which is what most of us "anti-fee" people have been saying all along: Make it part of the fare. And that's exactly what BA is doing. I don't mind paying for a certain level of service, I just want it to be part of the fare so that it becomes a level playing field for the consumer to compare the real cost of flying when shopping around different airlines.


User currently offlinePolot From United States of America, joined Jul 2011, 2259 posts, RR: 1
Reply 100, posted (1 year 8 months 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 1890 times:

Quoting Bongodog1964 (Reply 98):
The only difference I can see is that KL have said "you will now pay extra for a bag", whilst the BA trial on selected routes is worded as "there's a discount for not checking a bag" The end result is that there's a basic fare that doesn't include a checked bag, and an extra charge for one. On day 1 BA looks more generous, as it appears that they are reducing the fare for no bag. In the passage of time however it will all even itself out

  
You are probably going to see the fare that includes checked bags creep up so much over time vs the cheaper fare that it will end up having the same effect as KLM's.


User currently offlineBongodog1964 From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2006, 3635 posts, RR: 3
Reply 101, posted (1 year 8 months 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 1850 times:

Quoting airbazar (Reply 99):
The perception is completely different and it's not an extra fee, which is what most of us "anti-fee" people have been saying all along: Make it part of the fare. And that's exactly what BA is doing. I don't mind paying for a certain level of service, I just want it to be part of the fare so that it becomes a level playing field for the consumer to compare the real cost of flying when shopping around different airlines.

Of course its an extra fee, there will be a distinction between checking and not checking a bag, anyone saying differently is deluding themselves      
before we judged the standard BA fare to include one bag a packet of nuts and a drink, now on selected routes there will be an extra charge for the bag.
You are a marketing mans dream, they spend hours introducing various shades between black and white to create confusion in the hope that people will believe their spin. You've fallen for it hook line and sinker.


User currently offlineVV701 From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2005, 7617 posts, RR: 17
Reply 102, posted (1 year 8 months 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 1796 times:

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 69):
The cost of aircraft, fuel, and labor are all pretty close no matter where you are on earth

Not here in Europe.

A study by CAPA (Centre for Aviation) showed that labour costs in the European airline industry vary by more than a factor of two.

Their study was derived from the airlines' published annual reports and covered fifteen of Europe's largest airlines or airline groups. Their report included the following annual costs per employee:

flybe: 48,336 Euros per employee (100)
Ryanair: 49,475 Euros per employee (103)
Lufthansa Group: 57,940 Euros per employee (120)
IAG: 70,200 Euros per employee (145)
Air France-KLM: 75,385 Euros per employee (156)
SAS Group: 106,459 Euros per employee (220)

While aviation fuel and aircraft are priced universally in US $, all other airline costs, including labour, are priced in local currencies. Here the impact of changing exchange rates must not be underestimated. For example on 27 July 2008 US $1.00 was equivalent to 0.6337 Euros. Less than two years later on 13 June 2010 the US Dollar was worth 0.8319 Euros. This means that currency exchange rates were responsible for a change in relative costs (excluding fuel and aircraft) of over 31 per cent in less than two years. So if it were true that, at some point in time, operational costs around the world were similar, these gyrations in exchange rates ensure that at other points in time they must be very significantly different.


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