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DL Response To AA/US Merger?  
User currently offlineezra From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 475 posts, RR: 2
Posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 21029 times:

Now that AA & US are off to see the priest, what type of competitive response might we expect to see from DL? It occurs to me that they might be hungry again now that they've finished digesting NW. Relative to other recent players in the M&A game -- UA/CO, WN/FL, and now AA/US -- Delta is pretty far out along the curve and might be in a position to absorb another large deal. What, if anything, could they be cooking up? Could they try to play spoiler to the AA/US deal and try to snatch up Miami? Maybe B6 would make for a tasty snack? And of course there are always rumors about HA and AS. Does anyone care to opine?

182 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinephxa340 From United States of America, joined Mar 2012, 899 posts, RR: 1
Reply 1, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 20898 times:

If anything this merger helps DL- it's one less competitor they need to compete with on price. I think DL is right sized and has a highly effective fleet, network, and employee group. I don't see DL really affected by this merger, ditto for UA besides some right sizing routes to former US hubs

User currently offlinePIEAvantiP180 From United States of America, joined Sep 2009, 557 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 20750 times:
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Quoting ezra (Thread starter):
Could they try to play spoiler to the AA/US deal and try to snatch up Miami?

This is a merger not an asset sale, MIA is not under any circumstances for sale. The new AA would be idiots for even entertaining an idea like that. MIA is the Latin king and making AA money, there is no way they will get rid of it. AS for DL looking to merge with another carrier, its certainly a possibility. B6 would not work because they would have to give up to much in LGA/JFK slots to make the merger or a buy out pass the DOJ/DOT approval.


User currently offlineMaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 17786 posts, RR: 46
Reply 3, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 20587 times:

Quoting phxa340 (Reply 1):
If anything this merger helps DL- it's one less competitor they need to compete with on price

   On the other hand, DL is now #3. They have become the new US: lots of hubs in the East, one hub in the West that doesn't really serve as a gateway to much of anything, a great operation, improving product and customer service metrics, but ultimately a challenging network. I think we'll see DL try to make headway in NYC, LAX, and SEA, to grow a network that is competitive with the new AA and UA.



E pur si muove -Galileo
User currently offlinestlgph From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 9501 posts, RR: 26
Reply 4, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 20510 times:

If Delta has a 'concern' right now, of any other carrier, it is United. United has the best network among the airlines and is two years ahead of AMR/LCC in the merger integration process.
American doesn't even come close to United or Delta's presence in the Pacific Market.
Internally, Delta needs to teeth through their refinery operation, the investment in Virgin Atlantic, and its self-investment in New York LaGuardia and Kennedy.



if assumptions could fly, airliners.net would be the world's busiest airport
User currently offlinecommavia From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 11840 posts, RR: 62
Reply 5, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 20407 times:

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 3):
On the other hand, DL is now #3.

True, but all three are absolutely huge airlines. I think when you're talking about carriers that each have between 1/6 and 1/5 of the entire market, it becomes relatively less important who is in which specific position.

The key shift in competitive dynamics for Delta - and United - is that now they will have another competitor with not just the scale they have, but more importantly the network range. AA will - for the most part - be able to offer a comprehensive network across multiple, very-well-placed hubs, on par with Delta and United.

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 3):
They have become the new US

I wouldn't go that far. Delta today is in a far, far better position than standalone USAirways.

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 3):
lots of hubs in the East, one hub in the West that doesn't really serve as a gateway to much of anything

To be fair, that's essentially AA, too.

I think on balance AA's network will now be stronger than Delta's, but not by much. AA will have the entire domestic market covered except the west coast and Rockies region, with extremely dense coverage up and down the east coast, two excellent east-west hubs in DFW and ORD, plus LAX as a prime longhaul/partner gateway out west.

Domestically, the only area where Delta will still have a clear advantage vs AA will be in the Rockies, but of every region of the U.S., that's the least important - it's the least populous and least dense. Internationally, Delta will have an advantage to Asia, although I suspect the gap there between the two will be narrowing in coming years.

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 3):
a great operation, improving product and customer service metrics

  

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 3):
I think we'll see DL try to make headway in NYC, LAX, and SEA, to grow a network that is competitive with the new AA and UA.

I agree - those will likely be the 3 main battle fronts they attempt to fight on. We'll see if their competitors choose to fight on Delta's terms or take the fight to Delta on terms of their own.


User currently offlineslcdeltarumd11 From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 3607 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 20379 times:

Its good for Delta and United in the end. One less competator. Especially since US was always the one lowest last minute fares one less person to price match it will be a good thing for Delta in the end. Why does everyone keep bringing up MIA delta is not starting a hub there nor is AA/US going to leave or sell it.

User currently offlinejfk777 From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 8457 posts, RR: 7
Reply 7, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 20379 times:
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Delta has a decent Pacific franchise, with AA deal happening every one is saying how " AA lacks in Asia", True, But DL is not so strong to Europe as we are led to believe, sure they fly every where but is flying to Rome, Barcelona and Athens something to brag about. We all know AA is LHR centric to Europe but why is this a hanicap ? About 40 % of all USA to Europe trips go to the UK and 98 % of those go to LHR, which is why DL purchased 49 % of Virgin. DL has a decent operation to Latin America from Atlanta and JFK to Sao Paulo (hey its JFK where they have a huge operation if they can fly 20 767 to Europe daily they can do the LHR of South America too) but its not Miami and never will be.

IN Asia DL has the Tokyo hub, but the NRT hub is not what it used to be. 777 can go to all kinds of places in Japan, China, Hong Kong and Korea as AA is doing or soon will be nonstop from ORD, LAX, JFK and DFW. Even Delta overflies Japan with its own 777 from Detroit.


User currently offlineanstar From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2003, 5304 posts, RR: 7
Reply 8, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 20141 times:

Quoting ezra (Thread starter):
Now that AA & US are off to see the priest, what type of competitive response might we expect to see from DL?

Perhaps buying VX to be their LCC? They seem to be getting cosy with Virgin Atlantic (buying 49% and foing a JV between UK and USA, Canada, Mexico).... as well as the Joint Venture with Virgin Australia?

Perhaps we could see Delta push all the Virgin;s into Skyteam??


User currently offlinerwy04lga From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 3176 posts, RR: 8
Reply 9, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 20055 times:

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 7):
is flying to Rome, Barcelona and Athens something to brag about.

If other airlines had the network in Europe that Delta has, you'd bet your jet-A they'd brag about it. Delta is strong in EU, SA)">NA, SA, AS, and has presence in AF and AU. Six continents! Not too shabby for 'Number 3'!!

Since I was 15, I always wanted DL and NW to merge. They waited 35 years until I was hired by Delta to do that. Then I hoped we'd get LGA terminal C. Next on the list was getting VS. All have come to pass.

Now my sights are set on AS. SEA, here we come!!



Just accept that some days, you're the pigeon, and other days the statue
User currently offlineTVNWZ From United States of America, joined Feb 2006, 2408 posts, RR: 2
Reply 10, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 20057 times:

If I were Delta I would go after Alaska. Firm up the west coast. If Delta doesn't someone else will. Consolidation is not over with Alaska still out there alone.

User currently offlinephxa340 From United States of America, joined Mar 2012, 899 posts, RR: 1
Reply 11, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 20006 times:

Quoting TVNWZ (Reply 10):

True and all the folks that defend AS independence to the end, if DL offers the shareholders a fantastic offer - you better believe that AS will be bought out or merge.

I don't believe that this will happen though ... I see AS staying independent for quite some time.


User currently offline1337Delta764 From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 6633 posts, RR: 2
Reply 12, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 19983 times:

I was thinking if Doug Parker decides on getting rid of IFE on AA domestic flights, perhaps DL would counter it by retrofitting more of its domestic aircraft with AVOD in effort to win loyal AA customers who enjoy having IFE on domestic flights.


The Pink Delta 767-400ER - The most beautiful aircraft in the sky
User currently offlinetoltommy From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 3304 posts, RR: 5
Reply 13, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 19985 times:

Quoting stlgph (Reply 4):
If Delta has a 'concern' right now, of any other carrier, it is United. United has the best network among the airlines and is two years ahead of AMR/LCC in the merger integration process.

Problem is that UA is 10 years behind DL in the merger integration process.    AA/US has those two mergers to learn from, one done very well, one not so much.


User currently offlineTVNWZ From United States of America, joined Feb 2006, 2408 posts, RR: 2
Reply 14, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 19978 times:

Quoting phxa340 (Reply 11):
I don't believe that this will happen though ... I see AS staying independent for quite some time.

I agree with the first part. Love flying the airline. However, the market makeup may force the issue. I am not saying I want it to happen, I am saying Delta has to be thinking about it.


User currently offlineDualQual From United States of America, joined Mar 2006, 788 posts, RR: 1
Reply 15, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 19900 times:

Quoting toltommy (Reply 13):

10 years might be optimistic. AA/US could very well be integrated ahead. I say that with my tounge not really all in my cheek.


User currently offlineMaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 17786 posts, RR: 46
Reply 16, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 19864 times:

Quoting commavia (Reply 5):
To be fair, that's essentially AA, too.

I think on balance AA's network will now be stronger than Delta's, but not by much

I think they're significantly stronger or at least have the potential to become so quickly; they're now a major player in NYC, WAS, CHI, LAX--DL is making a hard push to be a major player in two of those areas. AA can run tpac flights out of LAX/DFW/ORD for instance. DL essentially has DTW; it has had difficulty doing much out of ATL and SLC is a nonstarter. I'm not convinced by SEA either as it relies in large part on a partner over whose schedule it has no control and with whom it seems to be having a schedule tit-for-tat lately.

Quoting commavia (Reply 5):
I wouldn't go that far. Delta today is in a far, far better position than standalone USAirways.

I mean it in the sense that DL probably has the most challenging network of the three now, though it has one of the strongest management teams, after US  DL has been making a lot of excellent moves, but so was US.

Quoting TVNWZ (Reply 10):
Consolidation is not over with Alaska still out there alone.

With every merger AS seems to print more money, so I don't know that AS really needs to get involved, especially if it continues to play AA and DL off of each other.



E pur si muove -Galileo
User currently offlinelucky777 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 17, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 19870 times:

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 3):
On the other hand, DL is now #3. They have become the new US

Laughable at best to make such a statement. Delta has a far more robust overall network than even the new AA has and certainly superior to anything US Airways or American offered on their own accord.


User currently offlineenilria From Canada, joined Feb 2008, 7552 posts, RR: 14
Reply 18, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 19807 times:

I think there is a 66% chance we will see this filed in court when others can submit reorganization plans:

"The analysis of the bid shows that US Airways is effectively paying $xyz million for American. We (Delta) are willing to pay $1 more than that for ONLY the Miami hub and if US Airways pays anything for the rest, then the creditors will get a higher % of their claims returned to them. We have included an analysis from our consultant showing our proposed asset sale coupled with the remainder being sold to US Airways should increase the claim resolution percentage from x% to y%."

Frankly, they'd be stupid not to do that...


User currently offlinerealsim From Spain, joined Apr 2010, 662 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 19784 times:

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 3):
I think we'll see DL try to make headway in NYC, LAX, and SEA, to grow a network that is competitive with the new AA and UA.

  

AA should better keep an eye on what DL is doing at LAX . I know AA is the number 1 mainline airline at LAX, but DL has now more flights from LAX to cities like SAN, SFO or LAS, and they are starting new routes, so they could end with something like what they have at LGA or JFK if AA stays idle. Who would have thought that DL would run mutilple daily LGA-ORD/DFW or LAX-SFO some years ago?

AA+US largest MSAs without non-stop service from LAX are ATL, DTW, SEA (AS), MSP and TPA, all of which are served by DL. I think it's time to enter those. Besides, the largets MSAs served by AA+US from ALL their hubs except LAX are DTW, TPA, BWI, PIT, CMH and IND. PIT and CMH, because of the large AA+US presence there, seem logical additions in my opinion.

[Edited 2013-02-14 10:41:32]

User currently offlinecommavia From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 11840 posts, RR: 62
Reply 20, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 19763 times:

Quoting lucky777 (Reply 17):
Delta has a far more robust overall network than even the new AA has

That's highly debatable.

Each is absent from 2 main regions of the U.S. (intra-west coast and Rockies for AA, intra-west coast and south-central for DL), but on balance I'd rather be missing the Rockies (least populous and lowest-density region of the mainland U.S.) than south-central.

Internationally, the two are now essentially tied across the Atlantic, while AA will handily dominate Latin America and Delta is huge to Asia (though with lower overall market share than AA has in Latin America).


User currently offlinediverdave From United States of America, joined Mar 2010, 348 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 19692 times:

Quoting phxa340 (Reply 1):
If anything this merger helps DL- it's one less competitor they need to compete with on price. I think DL is right sized and has a highly effective fleet, network, and employee group.

Delta is ecstatic.

As you note, it is one less competitor.

The new AA will have higher wage costs than the old US (as those employees are brought up to AA wage levels), and will have higher wage costs than if AA had emerged from bankruptcy stand-alone. (Thanks to the deals Parker cut with the unions.)

Richard Anderson's three largest US based competitors are all at various points in the process of difficult mergers, and yes I'm counting WN as one of the three.

His only dark cloud is that he must rue the day he bought the Trainer refinery.  

David


User currently offlinewingnutmn From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 651 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 19684 times:

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 7):

This is where your global alliance comes in and even further, your ATI with other carriers. DL has AF/KL across the Atlantic, with hubs in CDG and AMS you can go anywhere in Europe with 1 or 2 stops with 1 ticket. LHR was lacking so you buy into LHR with VS and now you have your Europe covered. Likewise Trans-pac has NRT, but it also has KE in ICN as a huge asset to the North Pacific rim and Indonesia.

AA may not have a huge Asia route, but OW has JAL that covers the entire North Pacific, and Qantas for all of the South Pacific. Where AA lacks is the Middle East. DL and UA fly there, but AA is very absent. You would need to go through LHR and connect on BA if you want that.

World domination for US airlines belongs to UA followed by DL, then AA.

Wingnut



Any landing you can walk away from is a good landing! It's a bonus if you can fly the plane again!!
User currently offlinePSU.DTW.SCE From United States of America, joined Jan 2002, 7711 posts, RR: 27
Reply 23, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 19695 times:

Quoting realsim (Reply 19):
AA+US largest MSAs without non-stop service from LAX are ATL, DTW, SEA (AS), MSP and TPA, all of which are served by DL. I think it's time to enter those. Besides, the largets MSAs served by AA+US from ALL their hubs except LAX are DTW, TPA, BWI, PIT, CMH and IND. PIT and CMH, because of the large AA+US presence there, seem logical additions in my opinion.

However, LAX is a true omni-directional hub, and there is signficant competition to/from LAX into those markets both nonstop and connecting service.

The routes are long mid-con type routes (MSP, DTW, ATL, TPA, PIT, CMH) that all eat up a lot of airplane time.
I wouldn't look too quickly for AA to jump on the routes. Plus, you know the minute they do then DL starts LAX-DFW, LAX-ORD


User currently offlinebobloblaw From United States of America, joined Jan 2012, 1725 posts, RR: 1
Reply 24, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 19626 times:

Quoting ezra (Thread starter):
what type of competitive response might we expect to see from DL?

THERE IS NOTHING DELTA CAN DO TO STOP AA/US or Blunit it.

Quoting ezra (Thread starter):
What, if anything, could they be cooking up? Could they try to play spoiler to the AA/US deal and try to snatch up Miami?

NO, OF COURSE NOT!!!!!!!

Quoting TVNWZ (Reply 10):
If I were Delta I would go after Alaska.

A hostile takeover???? AS doesnt want to be sold.

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 12):
I was thinking if Doug Parker decides on getting rid of IFE on AA domestic flights,

For the love of GOD!!!!!!!!!

Quoting realsim (Reply 19):
AA should better keep an eye on what DL is doing at LAX

DL is losing money at LAX is what Delta is doing.


SHOOT ME!!!!!! 


25 BoeingGuy : Yep, just what DL wants - all those small state of Alaska destinations; routes like BLI-OGG, SJC-LIH and QX. Both AA and DL get a lot milk from AS no
26 Post contains links rwy04lga : This thread DL To Start LAX-ANC/BOS/GEG (by FL787 Feb 13 2013 in Civil Aviation) speaks of Delta doing just that.
27 Post contains images RyanairGuru : Not happening. Parker regrets taking IFE of US planes, he learned a lot about running an East Coast business airline and doesn't plan on making the s
28 rwy04lga : DL could keep the SEA hub and some 737s, let QX fly the intra-AK and ex-SEA flights and let them keep the AS name. All Delta really wants is the SEA
29 bobloblaw : At some point you cant lose money at both.
30 rwy04lga : Eh cue me? Please enlighten me.
31 DTWPurserBoy : I just wonder how fractuous this merger will be. It took US and HP YEARS to integrate and AA is well known for its intractable unions. Unless handled
32 1337Delta764 : Are you sure about this? I find this hard to believe, since even on IFE-equipped aircraft, US doesn't use the IFE systems on any domestic route other
33 luv2fly : Is US and HP finally combined or is it still East and West? Remember it still has to pass the DOT and there is a 50/50 chance that it could not pass m
34 cessna2 : It will still take years. US and HP are still not fully integrated. Now you'll have multiple unions to integrate. This could take a while.
35 BoeingGuy : Oh yeah, I'm sure that would benefit the AS shareholders - pare out the most major parts of the AS network to DL and keep the leftovers under AS.
36 HPRamper : AS has so much more leverage right now than DL does. The only way DL could force a buyout is if they were somehow able to come to a backroom agreemen
37 1337Delta764 : On DL, based on my experience, more people still use the AVOD systems than using their own devices. While it is true that some people now use their o
38 delimit : I haven't sen it mentioned, but DL can't be sad to watch the rationalization that will happen between CLT and the AA network. Not only is DL losing a
39 BoeingGuy : That would also be illegal collusion AFAIK. One competitor making a secret backroom agreement with another competitor to force a third one to sell ou
40 United787 : They could also learn from their own past mergers AA/TW and US/HP, not done so well... No doubt that the DL/NW merger is a model for all and that UA/
41 wingnutmn : They also want LAX. They could increase capacity significantly to Asia with AS feed to LAX. Also, it would take away a codeshare with AA I think that
42 TVNWZ : AS doesn't need to get involved. But, DL may get involved to protect itself. It is not the number of competitors, it is the strength and reach of the
43 Post contains images MaverickM11 : Can we just drop the IFE nonsense? If IFE mattered VX would be printing money, while AS/G4/NK were losing billions, but it's the exact opposite. What
44 BoeingGuy : AA was in bankruptcy and can't always get what they want. AS is healthy, profitable, successful and has a very loyal customer following. They certain
45 HPRamper : Parker I think just made a sacrifice of this bargain, because at the first vote, the pilot contracts will be set. DL should be fine. Nothing to prote
46 phxa340 : As far as IFE goes, I know a lot of people who say that no one pays the fees for the service and hand helds are taking over. While growth might be st
47 diverdave : There was a smiley after my comment. Richard Anderson is a smart businessman, and I expect the refinery to succeed for Delta. David
48 jetlanta : No matter what anyone thinks of the communities they serve, ATL, DTW and MSP are FORTRESS HUBS that offer far more than their fair share to support t
49 bobloblaw : No they wont. They will become slightly weaker but not much. When UA was looking at US in 2000, there was going to be west coast point of sale traffi
50 DTW2HYD : Merge with UA. Three is a crowd. Consolidation is required.
51 klkla : Delta could force the issue by making an offer. That's all it takes. If Delta makes a serious offer the management and board of Alaska have to give i
52 HPRamper : Passing mustard sounds uncomfortable. Might burn a little bit.
53 bobnwa : I would say that once Parker has decided what brand of napkins to stock in the employee cafeteria he may look at the IFE situation, but it won't be a
54 commavia : I don't think it's fair to call AA a "distant" #2 at ORD or "distant" #3 in NYC. In both markets, they are quite large, and not all that dramatically
55 bobloblaw : I bet they do. The market is fragmented. Not dominated by a few large companies and fares are very competitive. UA and AA lost money there when oil w
56 MaverickM11 : I don't think you can look at those pairs in isolation. I think DL would absolutely trade DTW/MSP/SLC for ORD/DEN and a West Coast hub in a second. W
57 mah4546 : In fact, the combined airline will be #1 in O&D traffic at O'Hare, surprassing UA.
58 LAXdude1023 : There is no legit reason why this merger will be shot down. The president has been set through the DL/NW and CO/UA mergers. There is even less overla
59 luv2fly : US and HP still don't have their house in order from that merger. That right there will be brought up.
60 LAXdude1023 : By who? Not US or AA. Not the employees either.
61 Post contains images rwy04lga : Why bring Mr Obama into this? Oh, you meant 'precedent'.
62 jetlanta : Pre-merger, UA has a 10 point revenue share advantage at ORD. AA only generates 31% of all ORD revenues. That will improve a bit when the merger happ
63 jetlanta : Yep. You are correct. I just checked it. UA will still have a revenue advantage. And, of course, this assumes that AA/US don't consolidate their ORD
64 Post contains links mah4546 : Are you once again citing domestic revenue share as if international is irrelevant? Actually, the airline has already confirmed it will continue goin
65 PlanesNTrains : According to some here, DL has it's eyes set on JFK, LAX, and MIA. Two are currently under a build-up, leaving one (MIA) left to be dealt with. Oh, a
66 jetlanta : U.S. carriers report international revenues in DB1B. So the data includes domestic and international for those carriers. Most foreign flags don't rep
67 LDVAviation : Bingo. If it was all so well and good with everything that was gained with the Northwest merger, why the push in New York? If it was all so well and
68 1337Delta764 : Knowing Parker's track record, I would seriously take all of these statements with a grain of salt. Airline CEOs don't always do as they say; for exa
69 bobloblaw : Jet atlanta. I know what I'm talking about. I'm one of the few non 13 year old airline CEO wannabes. I'm talking about 1999-2000. UAL and AA were bot
70 MaverickM11 : I assume you mean LGA+JFK, and I also assume you're joking because a split hub is far less optimal than a single hub, especially if you're duking it
71 mah4546 : I wouldn't. It's a whole new ballgame, and Parker can't allow the airline to adapt US service standards. He's not a total idiot, he knows that. Funny
72 AeroWesty : Parker's track record is delivering serious profits with customer-appropriate in-flight benefits. AA caters to a different clientele in many ways tha
73 Post contains images MaverickM11 : Well, US service is not that bad, in fact it's gotten pretty good reviews up front with the new product. And AA's service hasn't been that great rece
74 Post contains images RyanairGuru : Truer words have never been spoken I still shake my head in wonder at the UA crowd on FlyerTalk. Go back to 2008 and read what they were saying then.
75 Post contains images commavia : And you call a seperation of 10 basis points "distant?" Please. I have great respect for you and what you post, but that is ridiculous. LGA+JFK (whic
76 SESGDL : How is AA/US even remotely in spitting distance? What did they gain, a hub in PHX? There's going to have to be serious rationalization of NYC/PHL ser
77 MaverickM11 : Well, not much really, but AA already had a solid network to begin with: it has a solid Transatlantic network, obviously the largest Latin American n
78 tommy767 : Honestly, as long as DL is making profits, I don't think they are going to care at all about AA/US. DL does well in Asia, almost as well as UA and AA
79 klkla : And interestingly enough the only people that think that nothing will change now that American's top management is basically getting kicked to the cu
80 MAH4546 : No. It had been pretty obvious this was going to happen as of late, but I didn't think it would happen before AMR emerged from BK because I didn't -
81 AVLAirlineFreq : I don't see the comparison. The roles of CVG and MEM as hubs were largely duplicated by DTW and ATL. There is no similar analogy for CLT.
82 commavia : Compared to UA, AA will basically have: * a far better network in the southeast U.S. * a far better network to Latin America * a better network in th
83 LDVAviation : As of Dec 2012 (12 months ending), according to the PA... Delta 9.3m passengers American 5.1m US 3.3m So, as of today, yes, the gap has closed consid
84 questions : What do you mean, "is a bit tenuous"? What did US add to AA's European network? Does anyone know how DL has defined "win New York"?
85 brilondon : I don't see DL being disadvantaged by only having SLC as a hub, they really only need the four main hubs they have now to service their network. I co
86 RyanairGuru : NRT is not what it once was. USA-Japan suffers from overcapacity, and UA has proved more successful at establishing non-stop routes to Asia that avoi
87 commavia : I have articulated my opinion several times in other threads, so I won't waste everyone's time in this one beyond simply saying this: Delta's current
88 MaverickM11 : It's funny that this merger has put BOS back into play for AA/US whether it was on purpose or not. It's obviously not a 'cornerstone' for AA and I'm
89 MAH4546 : Same case in RDU. Virtually tied with B6 at BOS; virtually tied with WN at RDU. And I believe number two at SFO, now, too.
90 commavia : Yes, I believe so. According to the airport, AA was in essentially a 4-way tie with Delta, Southwest and Virgin America for second place at SFO. Howe
91 Deltal1011man : Sit back and watch/laugh. Lets seem them get a complete joint pilot list before we start talking about how AA is going to own anyone. This thread is
92 MAH4546 : Then you don't know how antitrust law works and need to read a book. US/AA give up zero LaGuardia slots. That's it. Case closed. I know it makes you
93 peanuts : DL Response To AA/US Merger? With all due respect, CEO's are in their position of employment to mostly "act" and "anticipate" market changes and compe
94 commavia : All of the above ignores the point many of us have been making. Simply comparing slots and seat share misses the key point here from AA's perspective
95 Post contains images PlanesNTrains : Yet your argument seemed to be based purely on opinion and information from before 9/11. How is that "serious"? Not a criticism at all, but if you'd
96 bobnwa : ??? [ and anyone who thinks AA's current service is top level among legacy carriers is a bit of an AA fan boy wearing blinders
97 commavia : And my point is it doesn't need to be. AA already flies from LGA to most of the major O&D business markets it needs to from LGA. The ones missing,
98 toobz : I don't think DL really cares. If anything, like stated, they're down one competitor. They have been downsizing their ops to maximize profits. As long
99 goldenstate : Agree. At a high level, it's fairly obvious. Remain best in class operationally and financially. Continue improving product and service delivery. Pur
100 PSU.DTW.SCE : Your post sums it up best. It is not about "beating" the competitor, it is about running a profitable airline and delivering shareholder value. DL is
101 Cubsrule : Sure, but the competitive dynamic affects both of those things, and it may be that the changed competitive dynamic requires a response to continue to
102 ripcordd : Well the senority list will be the quickest thing to work out cause everyone is going to doh senority its pretty simple sure some wont be happy but i
103 crAAzy : I'm a little confused when you say this since AA just picked up a major SE hub that competes directly with ATL, now surpasses DL in the NE with a str
104 yellowtail : Well I would argue that LAX is now a hub for them too.... Evidence?
105 cageyjames : One man's hub is another man's focus city... DL in LAX is complicated, but not a hub. I think you can say UA, AA and AS have hubs. DL doesn't even cl
106 superjeff : They operate under one certificate (HP's), and the only major non combined group is the pilots - but that is close to resolution. They've already pas
107 LDVAviation : I think you are are right. How can it be a hub when DL has no flights from LAX to ORD, DFW, and DCA/IAD? While it does not lock DL out of those marke
108 enilria : Nobody wants DEN, maybe NK Just because DL is quite profitable it does not mean the airline isn't loss-leading. It is typical for 60%+ of an airline'
109 delta2ual : Oh please; NOBODY on this board knows what any airline makes at their hubs (or if they are in a position to know they certainly aren't stupid enough
110 cageyjames : Careful, you might be implying that US management is smarter than everyone thinks. Disclaimer: I think US management is smarter than everyone thinks.
111 mpdpilot : There is a lot in this thread but I think someone hit the nail on the head with this: What is DL's response to the merger? It has already started. Eve
112 mayor : Delta has been making a "push" in New York since '91, from what I can remember. Same in LAX. Off and on (and you all know about this) DL has been try
113 davescj : This is an interesting discussion for a number of reasons, not the least of which is the future of air travel in the US. But, as the US/AA merger effe
114 klwright69 : I think AA 's weakness in Asia is a very, very big deal. We cant talk all night about domestic US flying , but that is not where the money is. Okay, s
115 PIEAvantiP180 : You have to remember that for 2012 US numbers are inflated due to that they were still flying about 120 more daily flight for about a half a year the
116 Cubsrule : The money is in MNL and BKK? I'd contend that, given the partnership with JL, AA is not markedly behind DL. How do the two compare in nonstop US-Asia
117 jfk777 : Singapore Air has been flying to LAX via NRT since the late 1970's with 747-200, well before they had 747-300 or 747-400's.
118 AeroWesty : According to the WSJ, ASKs for October 2012 were: UA/CO: 5.04 billion DL: 3.51 b KE: 2.84 b CX: 2.52 b AC: 1.80 b JL: 1.61 b QF: 1.57 b NH: 1.40 b AA
119 flyfree727 : I think A.Net worries alot more about the AA/US merger than either DL or UA does. Pick the airline you like and fly them. Pick the airline you like an
120 Cubsrule : So AA+JL is about 2.8 billion ASKs, while DL is 3.5 billion ASKs. Not as huge a gap as people think, especially once you add in DFW-ICN, which should
121 AeroWesty : DL and KE firming up a true revenue-sharing JV, plus the Pacific gateway at SEA that DL has been building to overfly Japan to more destinations in As
122 Cubsrule : Agreed completely. But AA has been quietly growing Asia for a while.
123 LDVAviation : I wish I could find the analysis that was done of the AA vs UA hubs at ORD, which calculated the threshold of 63%. It really explains a lot. It also
124 Post contains images mayor : And, so.....where would THAT be? Seems like DL is able to turn great profits, even if, in your mind, DL's hubs aren't all that "great".
125 Post contains images commavia : That's generally how it works in business, yes. Why not? People discuss and/or compare all kinds of stuff far more ridiculous and trivial than that a
126 MaverickM11 : Same with US, in fact US' 2012 op margin was higher than DL, and it has a far more challenging network and merger. A good management team is just as
127 cv880 : DL gave up on the ORD market to anywhere at the end of deregulation. Gave up ORD-Florida and never tried to encroach on UA/AA transcon territory unti
128 AeroWesty : I think we've seen DL do exactly that in recent years. DL has connected ORD-LGA and SFO-LAX with frequent flights, and shored up their transcon offer
129 ual-fan : Delta has the best service by far so I doubt they all that worried. They just have to keep doing what they are doing now and they will come out on top
130 MAH4546 : That's your opinion. I have found DL's service to be severely lacking compared to AA and UA, but obviously far ahead of US.
131 klkla : Um... Yes it IS exactly getting kicked to the curb. New airline will have 12 board members: 5 - from the creditors committee (these are people AA owe
132 HPRamper : I know you meant to write Horton. I'd like to know who is staying on from PMAA.
133 klkla : Thanks for catching that. Fixed.
134 Post contains images rwy04lga : All the others, maybe...prettiest? NOT Not sure why you came up with a childish statement like that...then I saw your profile. Oh, that's why. FYI, m
135 questions : I realize the answer to my question involves fleet, but would DL be better off connecting top business points in the US or top business points US-Int
136 slcdeltarumd11 : Overall this merger is good for delta and United one less competitor, one less to price match with, one less pool of loyal elites not flying your airl
137 Post contains images flyabr : Why is it that "common knowledge" always suggests that Delta will be the third largest airline in the world after the AA/US merger?? According to Govt
138 questions : "Trolley emotional" is what the former NW elites in First became when the former PMNW FAs could no longer use the trolley to serve drinks in the F ca
139 slcdeltarumd11 : Auto spell check in action
140 strfyr51 : IN Asia DL has the Tokyo hub, but the NRT hub is not what it used to be. 777 can go to all kinds of places in Japan, China, Hong Kong and Korea as AA
141 Post contains images mayor : The "new" management is the same management US had when they tried a hostile takeover at DL during the BK and that was stopped. Since they are the sa
142 delimit : Be fair. The phenomenon is hardly unique to Delta.
143 Post contains images flyguy89 : And we all know how rational your thoughts on the matter are considering in your previous thread where you thought Horton should have been fired beca
144 Post contains images commavia : No arguments. We all have our own biases and bring them into our conversations here. That's fine - I think all of us accept that. What I just don't g
145 mayor : And I'll repeat, AGAIN, what I said. This was being done by fanboys of every other carrier, BEFORE, the DL/NW merger, therefore, whether the DL fanbo
146 questions : What are some examples of the "many exclusive services and benefits?" Who gets these? Does DL have anything that comes close? Is DL even considered s
147 Post contains links flyguy89 : Many of them are the obvious numerated benefits at the elite level of the AAdvantage program while some are more tailored and exclusive to certain cl
148 klkla : Good point... But what I meant is that these are basically the guys from America West that managed to get control of US Airways in bankruptcy... and
149 B377 : To the contrary....The creditors realized that this man has outstanding talents and has been very successful in bringing AA through the bankruptcy. D
150 Pu : Funny how the non-airline-employee fanboys of AA are living in yesteryear where market share and filling in holes on a map somehow supply the magical
151 commavia : I agree with you on sheer market share, but I don't know why "filling in holes on a map" is "living in yesteryear." Comparing the relative strength o
152 seatback : Domestically speaking, nobody does a coach service better than DL, and nobody does a first class service worse than Delta.
153 Pu : Filling in holes on the map is what happens when you have undergraduate business students look at the AA route map and financial performance while as
154 LAXdude1023 : This thread is dumb. You want to know what DL's response to AA/US will be? I wager it will be nothing at all. The merger removes a competitor from the
155 bobnwa : Just what one would expect from a AA fan boy.Too bad for AA that the rest of the traveling public does not feel that way
156 klkla : That's a great spin but by all accounts he fought hard to keep the CEO title and due to a lack of faith by the creditors was forced to turn the compa
157 Post contains images MaverickM11 : US had a better op margin than DL in 2012 It's really extraordinary. No one was in control of AA, not AA management, not labor, not US. I'm confident
158 Post contains images panamair : Depends on whether you include restructuring/special items. GAAP operating margin: DL: 5.9% US: 6.2% Operating margin excluding restructuring/special
159 MaverickM11 : Either way, it's nothing short of miraculous considering where HP/US were just a few years ago.
160 Cubsrule : What you are missing is three words: "in the network." US service is proven to work in the US network, which is quite a lot different from the AA net
161 delta2ual : Not only that, my friends at DL and UA who are privy to information would never share it with anyone, let alone on this board; which is why I know no
162 HPRamper : Point well taken. Forget DL...where is the thread asking how UA will respond to the merger, in light of losing a huge codeshare passenger funnel and
163 Cubsrule : His point--which isn't really arguable--is that Doug Parker knows how to make money with the hand he's dealt. That is true, but you have to remember
164 HPRamper : Probably every bit as much Kirby as Parker. PMHP got themselves a winner by cherrypicking Kirby from PMUS...wonder if PMUS would have been in as such
165 Post contains images commavia : In a network business, the attractiveness of the network generally increases as the number of nodes connected to it increase. That's certainly the as
166 mayor : Which you have repeated on this thread, ad nauseum.......so, let me repeat, again (ad nauseum) that UA/CO/AA/US fanboys were doing their own "chest t
167 Post contains images MaverickM11 : You're assuming nothing changes, but the network will grow and change as the environment and cost structure change. If Parker & Co. can run one o
168 Post contains images mayor : With even MORE "kamikaze, sociopath labor", no doubt............ What amazes me most about this thread, is that it seems to have been created, solely
169 AeroWesty : Why anyone needs to make the effort to defend DL is a curiosity. Let the AA fanboys have their day. What is the new AA, after all? It's an airline wh
170 Post contains images mayor : Sorry, it's in my DNA.
171 MaverickM11 : Given APA it's almost an absolute certainty, but they've all shown repeatedly their willingness to set themselves on fire rather than negotiate reaso
172 mayor : Somehow, it has magically worked for US, despite the problems. Think how well they'd have done if the employees were happy. Despite what has been sai
173 MaverickM11 : I don't think it's magical at all, and I don't think that group would ever be happy, nor would there be any benefit from it beyond being able to flow
174 mayor : Just think.....an entirely new managerial strategy..........don't bother to solve the problem, just ignore it.
175 cv880 : What, comparing F to F class? What about AA's inferior J class with portable video players(767's) and 2x3x2 J class seats on the 777's? At least the
176 Post contains images MaverickM11 : What could he have done? I think he was smart to fix the things that could be fixed, and work around the pilot groups, who had no interest in a solut
177 Cubsrule : This is a silly argument. Delta's old 763 J product is just as awful, maybe even worse. Both carriers are (rightly) making changes.
178 LDVAviation : Funny, that is what the Delta fanboys kept telling us about Delta before Leo Mullin ran out of borrowed money and had to declare bankruptcy. (Back th
179 AeroWesty : You'll find little argument against that point, I believe, and gives rise to two further points in discussions about the merger: 1) These traffic flo
180 Post contains images mayor : Bankruptcy was not declared until after Leo was gone........Grinstein declared bankruptcy. Just so you know. Back then, Florida markets WERE still pa
181 delimit : It will probably contract a bit, actually.
182 SA7700 : This thread has run its course and will be locked for further contributions. Unfortunately it has become nothing more than a squabble between two grou
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