BHMNONREV From Australia, joined Aug 2003, 1332 posts, RR: 4 Posted (10 months 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 5507 times:
All of this merger talk got me to thinking about airport operations and BOS was the first one to come to mind. Both AA and US have substantial terminal operations in B at Logan, my question is which side will win out? B West with US or B East with AA?
US has more gates which I would think both airlines could consolidate OPS into, leaving B East free for UA, WN or someone else looking to expand in the BOS market.
In STL, US recently moved to Concourse C near AA, are there any other airports which come to mind where OPS could be a potential problem or blessing?
Please keep this discussion to the non-hubs of the combined airline. Thanks to all for your replies
commavia From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 10641 posts, RR: 62 Reply 1, posted (10 months 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 5396 times:
From an airport operations integration perspective, this merger appears pretty effortless - certainly far less challenging that United-Continental.
At least for the hubs, the integration is obvious. AA will move into the more-than-sufficient space US already has at its hubs (PHL, CLT, PHX), and US will move into the more-than-sufficient space AA already has its hubs (DFW, ORD, MIA, JFK). And at DCA, the two are already essentially right next to each other. The only hub where it may be a problem is LAX.
For the non-hubs, this should also be rather straightforward. There are only 3 major airports around the system where I see airport integration presenting any real issues:
LGA - both airlines have reasonably large operations, and are currently located in 2 completely different spots; long-term the solution is obviously the new CTB that the PANYNJ wants to build, but in the interim, I suspect the only viable solution is to cut some kind of a deal with UA and the CTB to consolidate in the existing CTB Concourses C/D and move UA somewhere else
BOS - I think this will only really present "issues" because of the logistics, but not necessarily the path forward; I think AA will likely consolidate on the current US side of B, but I'm just not sure about how that would or when that would happen; one thing is for sure, though: Massport is probably about the happiest of everyone today about this merger, as their whole terminal merry-go-round problem was just solved
ATL - AA has an enviable position with its 4 prime gates on T, but the combined airline could not fit into that space; UA has a similar problem as its combined operation cannot fit into its 3 gates on T; the obvious long-term solution is that one of them will likely get all 7 of the T north gates and the other will move somewhere else, but both will surely want those T gates as they're so convenient
Beyond those two, all of the other major combined non-hub airport operations are already either right next to each other, or should be able to easily be consolidated into a single bloc of gates. In places like SFO, SEA, STL, MCO, AUS, etc., the two carriers should have no problem combining airport operations.
Cubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 21795 posts, RR: 19 Reply 2, posted (10 months 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 5293 times:
Quoting commavia (Reply 1): In places like SFO, SEA, STL, MCO, AUS, etc., the two carriers should have no problem combining airport operations.
There may be some unknowns in SFO, but with VX going nowhere quickly as far as growth, UA eventually moving back out of Terminal 1 and neither carrier that large, I don't see a long-term problem there.
At BNA, I'm not sure that US can easily fit in to AA's current space, but cutting some DCA frequencies, which will inevitably happen, and perhaps adding a jet bridge or two to space AA already leases should fix that.
One thing that's different with this merger is that the previous mergers (DL/NW, UA/CO, WN/FL) have already resulted in consolidation and vacant gates at a lot of airports. So at a place like MCO that had some questions about the prior mergers, this one is easy; I expect AA will just move in to Airside 3 which IIRC has plenty of available gates.
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
Quoting BHMNONREV (Thread starter): All of this merger talk got me to thinking about airport operations and BOS was the first one to come to mind. Both AA and US have substantial terminal operations in B at Logan, my question is which side will win out? B West with US or B East with AA?
Now with a bigger presence in Boston I hope AA will expand to Europe, no 757 please. BOS to GRU would be a great rout too.
ERJ170 From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 6696 posts, RR: 18 Reply 6, posted (10 months 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 5184 times:
Have a question that I wasn't sure would be correct for the other threads..
RDU (of course)
Clubhouse: US and AA both have a pretty decent size club at RDU. Who will win the club space. Could they possibly turn one of them into a Flagship lounge for the internation flight and the other a domestic lounge?
Airport location: Currently AA is pretty much surrounded in Terminal 2 Concourse C for their current location. US is on the opposite end with 4 or 5 gates available. New AA could consolidate everything into the Concourse D side but that would mean the LHR flight would arrive and depart on the complete opposite end of the airport from their other ops.
Routes: LHR and DCA. I personally think New AA would be crazy to cut the LHR route but to be honest, US wasn't necessarily the smartest cookies in the Keebler pack. Is it possible they would try to move the RDU slot to CLT to give them 2 LHR flights and eliminate the RDU route? (Please take note that if that would happen, DL or the DL JV with VS would annouce RDU pretty soon afterwards I completely believe).. DCA is another story with AA and US each having between 7-8 flights a piece. Could this push RDU-DCA into 7-8 total on E70/E75 or would one of their flights just get dropped? (Again, I believe DL and potentially WN would pick up the route with the divesture of the flights as would probably be required)...
Cubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 21795 posts, RR: 19 Reply 8, posted (10 months 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 5152 times:
Quoting commavia (Reply 3): I don't think it should be all that much trouble - are AA's gates exceedingly highly utilized? It's never seemed so to me.
The trouble is that they use Eagle gates for Eagle (and QK and K5) and mainline gates for mainline, and US flies a lot of Express aircraft to PHL and DCA. I bet DCA goes E-jet and uses mainline gates along with some frequency cuts, and the four jet bridges (C2/3/5/8) should be enough for mainline. Given the frequent delays to Eagle destinations (ORD, LGA, PHL), they probably need to add a jet bridge to C13 and/or C15.
[Edited 2013-02-14 07:10:41]
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
apodino From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 3979 posts, RR: 6 Reply 11, posted (10 months 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 4866 times:
The hubs along with DCA are obvious. As for key outstations
BOS - The question is, what is Terminal B going to look like Post Merger. They already started construction on the B project and I see it being finished. But that may create a surplus of gates. What I suspect may happen is for AA and US to combine in the B South portion, which would include some of the new construction, allowing UA to relocate into B south. With the Star Alliance angle being thrown in, I also look for VX and AC to swap locations, though I think AC needs three gates for their BOS operation, and where VX is currently only offers two.
ATL - Like the UA-US merger, this has split operation written all over it. The only long term solution I see would be for WN to completely take over the South D gates, for DL to take the exisiting C gates being used by WN, and then for the T gates to be UA and AA. I don't think DL will like this very much which is why it will be difficult to implement, but C offers DL more gates than they have on T.
MCO - US is in Airside 3 and AA is on Airside 1. You know B6 will want some growing room on Airside 1. There was space freed up on Airside 3 following the NW/DL merger, but then UA/CO combined on 3 themselves. Not sure how much space is available, and if can handle a combined operation.
EWR - Easiest one in the book, both will end up in A.
MKE - AA is on C, and US just moved to D, which makes this one harder than it would have been a few months ago. Because WN is looking to consolidate to C, I suspect AA will end up joining US on D. The question is, after DL moves, how much room is left on D?
LAS - Both airlines are in T1, but US Is still on A and AA on D. Everything is common use, and common sense would dictate that the carriers end up on D. I don't see the check in being moved to T3 though.
CLE - Real easy, the two airlines are the only ones on the A concourse, which the combined carrier will enjoy to themselves now.
LHR - The combined carrier is going to end up in T3, but the question is, how long are the US flights going to stay in T1 before merging? UA/CO hasn't even been able to consolidate ops there yet.
YYZ - US moves back to T3 now that there is no longer a need for them to share with the Star Alliance.
IAD - US uses the Z gates in the Main Terminal, where AA is out on Concourse A. I think Z has room to accommodate the combined ops.
SFO - AA is in T2, and US in T1, now is there enough room in T2 to handle the operation without VX being screwed over in the process?
HPRamper From United States of America, joined May 2005, 3882 posts, RR: 8 Reply 12, posted (10 months 2 days ago) and read 4786 times:
At PDX, US and AA are close (on the same concourse) but separated by I believe two or three WN gates. AA only has a few flights a day, US a couple more than that, and while AA is a bit closer to the ticket counter, the US area is more spacious. Remains to be seen who moves where.
adtall From United States of America, joined Nov 2010, 70 posts, RR: 1 Reply 14, posted (10 months 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 4705 times:
Quoting apodino (Reply 11): ATL - Like the UA-US merger, this has split operation written all over it. The only long term solution I see would be for WN to completely take over the South D gates, for DL to take the exisiting C gates being used by WN, and then for the T gates to be UA and AA. I don't think DL will like this very much which is why it will be difficult to implement, but C offers DL more gates than they have on T.
DL isn't giving up their T gates. They run DCA, LGA and other high frequency flights out of T and they market that quick accessibility, plus they would be losing 6 widebody gates and lots of office space. It just isn't happening. One of UA and AA will end up on T and one on D, unless they both want to continue split ops. WN also couldn't fit entirely on D south unless they pared their ops back drastically; they would lose a bunch of gates as FL already uses a lot of the CUTE gates.
SANFan From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 4970 posts, RR: 15 Reply 15, posted (10 months 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 4716 times:
In SAN, US is in T2W and AA is in T2E. Both cx use different "assigned" gates.
I could see the new operation settling in the western end of T2 where the Green Build is nearing completion and there will be lots of CUTE gates and tons of ticket counter space. However, AA's current location in T2E is near BA and JL's gates (the FIS facilities) so to keep the Alliance together, maybe the new AA will stay there... (I don't think there are many connections here in SAN between AA, BA, and JL so their proximity may not be important.)
And what used to be AA's Admiral's Club is being moved and changed into a common-use club operated by ALD, open to pax of any cx; the new club WILL remain in T2E. That fact would, I guess, tend to favor AA remaining in T2E. (And there is certainly enough gate space to handle the combined -- pre-shrinkage -- operations of AA and US.)
It's unclear (to me anyway) due to the opening of the new terminal area which SAN airlines will be moving into and out of which terminals (except for UA which is definitely moving soon into the new area.) And perhaps this AA-US consolidation will now alter the planned moves even more!
DLX737200 From United States of America, joined May 2001, 1870 posts, RR: 21 Reply 16, posted (10 months 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 4699 times:
For ATL, as mentioned, UA/CO is still split up in T and D and AA/US will also be split in T and D. I think Delta should trade 3 of the old Northwest gates for US' D North gates. Then UA can take over these three former Northwest gates and give up the 3 T gates to AA. US/AA could fill in T North and UA/CO could have several gates in D South. They may not be side by side but at least all be in the same terminal and near the UA (formerly CO) lounge. T North also already has the AA club.
At my former airport, OMA, AA is in A Concourse and US in B Concourse. AA uses gate 7 and US uses gate 11. US could either move to gate 6 or AA could move to B and the two airlines could either use gates 18/19 or maybe 19/20. 20 might have some aircraft size limitations, not sure...
The public: They always know better, even though they often know nothing
BHMNONREV From Australia, joined Aug 2003, 1332 posts, RR: 4 Reply 19, posted (9 months 4 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 4588 times:
Quoting commavia (Reply 1): ATL - AA has an enviable position with its 4 prime gates on T, but the combined airline could not fit into that space; UA has a similar problem as its combined operation cannot fit into its 3 gates on T; the obvious long-term solution is that one of them will likely get all 7 of the T north gates and the other will move somewhere else, but both will surely want those T gates as they're so convenient
ATL was one that I figured could present a problem. I can't see either AA or UA giving up T gates unless the other wants to pony up some serious cash. If I had to place a wager on who of the two would move it would be UA. AA has their baggage claim in the old international arrivals area, I'm thinking they like the exclusivity.
Quoting apodino (Reply 11): IAD - US uses the Z gates in the Main Terminal, where AA is out on Concourse A. I think Z has room to accommodate the combined ops
I had forgotten about those, I believe there are 5-6 Z gates there. I would think the combined ops could easily fit there, but the gates seem to be better confiured for regional jets vs mainline.
FWAERJ From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 3535 posts, RR: 2 Reply 20, posted (9 months 4 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 4553 times:
Quoting ERJ170 (Reply 6): Routes: LHR and DCA. I personally think New AA would be crazy to cut the LHR route but to be honest, US wasn't necessarily the smartest cookies in the Keebler pack. Is it possible they would try to move the RDU slot to CLT to give them 2 LHR flights and eliminate the RDU route? (Please take note that if that would happen, DL or the DL JV with VS would annouce RDU pretty soon afterwards I completely believe)
Don't forget about the possibility of AA just handing RDU-LHR to their JV partner BA (the most likely scenario, IMO) and moving the spare LHR slot to another AA hub (most likely PHL).
I don't work for FWA, their tenants, or their ad agency. But I still love FWA.
RyanairGuru From Australia, joined Oct 2006, 4074 posts, RR: 2 Reply 21, posted (9 months 4 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 4476 times:
Quoting BHMNONREV (Reply 19): If I had to place a wager on who of the two would move it would be UA.
Absolutely, UA would be better off in D as there is a United Club there. However much they may "like" the T gates, it makes a lot more sense for them to move to their Club, than AA (unless they pick up an Admirals Club in the process!)
And they must be popping champagne corks up in Boston
Consolidating AA/US in the US gates (plus some spillover into the connector), AC and VX in the connector and UA in the AA gates has solved all of their problems. And it will allow some spare gates for non-B6 growth.
As said, EWR is easy.
US only has a limited presence in SFO, and could probably be shoehorned into the AA gates with clever scheduling.
At RDU, I think that AA will move down to US. AA are choked by DL and B6, whereas there is lots of empty space in the US/UA pier.
LAX could be interesting. While it looks like a nightmare, I think that with some scheduling acrobatics that they could get everything into T4 and TBIT. After all, TBIT is like a mini-JFK: completely deserted for large swathes of the day.
A few more that no-one has mentioned yet:
TPA: both are at Airside F and are ticketed in the "blue" zone. No real problems here. Just a bit of shuffling to co-locate gates.
ORF: AA are on B and US are on A, but there are some empty gates opposite the US gates so they will be able to easily consolidate on A.
RIC: Really easy, AA and US already have A to themselves (+AC)
GSO: Another easy one, the two have Pier B to themselves (with G6 making an occasional appearance). There's loads of empty room, so AA could move down next to US (which is closer to the ticket counters and the Club). On that note, what will become of the Greensboro US Airways Club?
point2point From United States of America, joined Mar 2010, 2310 posts, RR: 1 Reply 22, posted (9 months 4 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 4473 times:
DEN looks like it's going to maybe be into some complications to get AA and US together.
Presently US, being a *A member, is pretty much bundled up with UA here, and US shares a couple of gates in UA's Concourse B, while AA has its couple of DEN gates in Terminal A, and AA/US are even on opposites sides of the concourses. IIRC, UA was happy to give up these couple of gates to its alliance partner a few years back.
Meanwhile, in Jeppesen Terminal where the counter space is, US is near UA on the West Side, while AA is on the East Side.
There are gripes that DEN doesn't have enough gates, yet the concourses presently are so easily and relatively inexpensively to expand for more gates. And it seems that everyone just likes to grumble about it, but really have done nothing about adding more gates for the last few years.
And just from the looks of the DEN map, it looks like there will have to be some reshuffling if UA is going to want to keep all of its Concourse B gates to either itself or to *A partners.
I have a feeling that this may be one of the funner airports to be fun to watch with this merger.........
edit added: AA has about 19 daily flights, while US has some 15 daily flights, for about 36 in total. They each presently have 2 gates. I could think that the merged AA/US could manage here with 3 gates if they cut a handful of flights, but that could even make things more complicated.......
FWAERJ From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 3535 posts, RR: 2 Reply 23, posted (9 months 4 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 4468 times:
Quoting RyanairGuru (Reply 21): LAX could be interesting. While it looks like a nightmare, I think that with some scheduling acrobatics that they could get everything into T4 and TBIT. After all, TBIT is like a mini-JFK: completely deserted for large swathes of the day.
Spot on. Before the merger announcement, AA planned on using TBIT for some flights (with preferential use access at 3-4 gates) and sharing the new oneworld lounge in TBIT.
I don't work for FWA, their tenants, or their ad agency. But I still love FWA.
FreshSide3 From United States of America, joined Nov 2012, 213 posts, RR: 0 Reply 24, posted (9 months 4 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 4343 times:
Quoting jfk777 (Reply 4): Now with a bigger presence in Boston I hope AA will expand to Europe, no 757 please.
Some seasonal summer "niche" routes would work good in BOS. The first city that comes to mind is Cork, although there are a few others......those kinds of secondary European cities......
Quoting HPRamper (Reply 12): At PDX, US and AA are close (on the same concourse) but separated by I believe two or three WN gates. AA only has a few flights a day, US a couple more than that, and while AA is a bit closer to the ticket counter, the US area is more spacious. Remains to be seen who moves where.
AA and US are close together in the A concourse in SEA. UA will be moving to A later on......and the pieces will start to fit togther in the near future......AS relocation into N gates is also part of the puzzle, too....
[Edited 2013-02-17 18:07:33]
25 commavia: No Flagship Lounge at RDU, but there will certainly be an Admirals Club there. I don't think there has been any suggestion as such. As has been well-
26 Cubsrule: Here are a few more with physical separation that no one has yet mentioned. I think most of these have enough vacant gates that consolidation will not
27 FreshSide3: Looks like that's probably the plan. UA, incidentally, will also be getting the former AA Admiral's club, which has been vacant the past few years.
28 Deltal1011man: If by great you mean burn money....then yes. .....Good idea. Maybe they should buy 20 A380s and fly them all across the Atlantic. Who cares how much
29 phatfarmlines: Note that this will mean the return of what will be former US at gates F79-F82, which were longtime US gates until they were given up to AA in the ea
30 RyanairGuru: DCA-RDU certainly isn't going anywhere. Both carriers operate 7 50 seaters per day, so the obvious thing to do would offer 7x E75/CR9/E90. No loss of
31 commavia: I tend to agree - if at all possible, I am sure AA would prefer to have all of their operations consolidated into T4 (at least when it comes to ticke
32 tommy767: Likely a gate or two unless they have VX move to A-1 with WN, B6, and the other LCCs. It would match up nicely then: EWR TERM A: A-1: WN, B6, VX A-2:
33 phatfarmlines: Except the Eagle flights leave from the West satellite, and US operates mostly mainline into LAX.
34 commavia: Thus why I specifically referred to "volume throughput" (meaning passenger volume) rather than "aircraft throughput" or "gate utilization." Sorry if
35 justplanenutz: Once the connectors to TBIT are built, would the walk from T3 -T4 be much different than T6-T8 on UA? Seems to me if NewAA really wanted to swing for
36 FlyingSicilian: At IAH I'd expect the "new" AA to grow a bit in A south. It would be nice to see a lounge built as well. In the IAH thread, an AA employee mentioned t
37 commavia: I suspect AA's desire would be to shift sufficient flying to TBIT gates (mostly international and widebody, likely) and reconfigure T4 for more gates
38 crAAzy: There will still be plenty of gates "available" in the D concourse in MKE after DL moves. I say "available" because according to our local expert kno
39 apodino: This sounds like it is going to be a repeat of what just happened in BOS, where you had one dominant carrier (B6) who the airport authority is going
40 adtall: First, and actually a WN point, is that WN/FL would go from ~30 gates that they use at the moment to 20 gates. That isn't something I'd think they'd
41 Cubsrule: But, again, with the possible exception of ORD, they really don't need to run those flights from T for any competitive reason. Most people who fly th
42 SANFan: Well, ummm, except for post 15. (As Father Mulcahy once said, "I'm often mistaken for being absent.") bb
43 Deltal1011man: nearly all of the 15ish domestic 767 fleet is based in Atlanta. A few LAX turns to other hubs but thats about it. Not only that but in the summer the
44 Cubsrule: . . . and it's equally silly for all of them.
45 LHCVG: There might be some value to them, just with a rather low price/accomodations threshold for consolidating elsewhere. It's worth holding on to, but no
46 JoePatroni707: LAX currently has the highest per gate utilization in the AA system, it is somewhat maxed at this point. Not too much more AA can add in T4. The orig
47 blueman87: JFK US just goes to T8 but will ther remainder of that terminal be built like originally planned
48 antoniemey: Plenty of room on C if they need it. C8 also currently lacks a jet bridge and could be utilized... in a pinch, they could redraw some of the lines an
49 cessna2: I agree. AA would be crazy to cut the route. Here's the market share breakdown for 2012 released by RDU today. DL-26.9% WN-21.7% AA-17.0% AWE-15.6% U
50 crAAzy: Technically, it's 5.7% not almost 10%. After AA/US combine there will certainly be some rationalization of RDU routes and maybe even a few routes add
51 SJOtoLIR: Speaking about the Central American landscape, San Jose Costa Rica will receive six routes out from the USA, once the AA-US merger would come into for
52 Byrdluvs747: I never understood why they never tried for gates in T6. As I understand it, T6 still isn't being used to its max capacity.