Sponsor Message:
Civil Aviation Forum
My Starred Topics | Profile | New Topic | Forum Index | Help | Search 
Are DL/UA Hubs In Asia And Europe viable/Profitable?  
User currently offlinemartinrpo1 From United States of America, joined Dec 2012, 63 posts, RR: 0
Posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 6590 times:

DL has two hubs outside the United States: AMS and NRT. UA has hubs in GUM and NRT. How viable and profitable are these hubs?

17 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlinempdpilot From United States of America, joined Jul 2006, 991 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 6488 times:

Just a small correction, DL also considers Paris de Gaulle a hub as well.

Also I am not expert, but I would say they are doing reasonably well as neither airline has been reducing service. UA did for a while there but they have pretty much right sized themselves in NRT so I don't envision more cuts there. But I am no expert.



One mile of highway gets you one mile, one mile of runway gets you anywhere.
User currently offlinecarpethead From Japan, joined Aug 2004, 2946 posts, RR: 3
Reply 2, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 6089 times:

Quoting martinrpo1 (Thread starter):
UA has hubs in GUM and NRT.

You do know that GUM is a US territory.
NRT is a semi-hub with just one bank of few really spreadout flights.
I have no knowledge of its profitability.
Saying that, there's nothing in the UA-fleet that can do US-BKK/SIN non-stop economically, so NRT is a very viable stopover point. It just so happens Japan-SIN/BKK has fifth freedom rights. This is the case with NRT-TPE, HKG & ICN. I think one can even book NRT-SGN one-stop via HKG on a 738.


User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 24846 posts, RR: 46
Reply 3, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 6040 times:

Development of Tokyo as a hub had much to do with politics and geography.

After WWII, the US got broad traffic rights via Japan. Combine this with geography, Japan turned out to be a great gateway for broader Far East service.

Today with improved aircraft range and combined with growth in other Asian economies airlines especially United have focused on direct services that overfly Japan and thus has reshaped its Tokyo services to focus more on local demand, and connections to its new JV partner ANA.

Its a bit like US airline service intra-Europe. With the growth of smaller twin engine aircraft that made direct services possible, no longer was there a need to base a cadre of 727s there.

Regarding Guam - that is a whole other situation - the operation was launched in the 1960s by U.S. Trust Territory for it to have airline service. Continental became the partner in this venture, and the operation has successfully survived and actually thrived into a nice niche operation. I do recall from a CO earnings call a couple years back when the operation was termed profitable.



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlinesteex From United States of America, joined Jun 2007, 1610 posts, RR: 9
Reply 4, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 5787 times:

Quoting martinrpo1 (Thread starter):

DL has two hubs outside the United States: AMS and NRT. UA has hubs in GUM and NRT. How viable and profitable are these hubs?
Quoting mpdpilot (Reply 1):
DL also considers Paris de Gaulle a hub as well.

First off - you can pretty much disregard the DL hubs at AMS and CDG. These are hubs for the joint venture operation with AF/KL, and DL does certainly operate more TPAC capacity here because of it, but these aren't hubs in the typical sense. DL has very little invested there in terms of maintaining the bulk of the operation, it primarily consists of codeshares on partner metal.

I don't have a great answer for DL's NRT operation. Keeping the intra-Asia sectors full requires offering fares lower than its local competitors, and aside from that its connecting traffic that is by its very nature lower yielding than non-stop service from the USA would be. That makes it a difficult operation to manage, but DL seems to be constantly evaluating what service to offer and mostly satisfied at this point.

As previously mentioned, UA's hub at GUM is on American soil. I believe this hub does quite well given that there is a very high tourist demand between Japan and Guam, plus a healthy stream of military related traffic. They can also drive very high yields out of some of the routes they dominate to the Pacific islands.

Quoting carpethead (Reply 2):
NRT is a semi-hub with just one bank of few really spreadout flights.

NRT is a completely different animal for UA than DL at this point. UA has been fairly effective at overflying NRT where it can, allowing it to reduce its portfolio of lower yielding beyond-NRT flights. This naturally means that UA's flights between the USA and NRT have more of an O&D focus, which is typically higher yielding. I would guess they are generally satisfied with the performance of what they have there.

Quoting carpethead (Reply 2):
I think one can even book NRT-SGN one-stop via HKG on a 738.

You cannot book NRT-SGN on UA metal. Carriers from the USA do not have fifth freedom rights between NTR and SGN, so UA cannot sell tickets for that route (despite the fact that their schedules could theoretically allow it). This is also why DL failed so spectacularly on NRT-SGN, as it had to rely entirely on connections to/from the USA and they couldn't use local pax to fill up the plane.


User currently offlinecarpethead From Japan, joined Aug 2004, 2946 posts, RR: 3
Reply 5, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 5381 times:

Quoting steex (Reply 4):
You cannot book NRT-SGN on UA metal.

Thanks for clarifying. I guess Vietnam was not on the list of countries with fifth-freedom rights from Japan.


User currently offlinetoobz From Finland, joined Jan 2010, 767 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 5345 times:

Whatever anyone posts, is all speculation. Nobody knows. So take it with a grain of salt.

User currently offlinefactsonly From Montserrat, joined Aug 2012, 816 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 5335 times:

Quoting steex (Reply 4):
First off - you can pretty much disregard the DL hubs at AMS and CDG.

Lets take a closer look at DELTA's Summer 2013 operation at AMS to determine whether we can be this dismissive of the profitabiliity of DL's AF/KLM Joint Venture across the Atlantic.

This coming summer DL will operate 19x widebody departures from AMS. The airline is expanding its AMS operation significantly, not only with an additional daily B767 on JFK-AMS, but also by replacing B767 and A332 with larger capacity aircraft, as follows:

- B767 => A332 on ATL, BOS, BOM, DTW, MSP
- B767 => A333 on SEA
- A332 => A333 on ATL, MSP, PDX
- A332 => B777 on DTW

This results in the following DL operation in Summer 2013:

1 arr. 5:50 BOS DL 266 A333 Daily
2 arr. 5:55 DTW DL 252 A333 Daily
3 arr. 5:55 ATL DL 174 A332 Daily
4 arr. 6:00 JFK DL 205 B767 Daily
5 arr. 6:25 MSP DL 258 A333 Daily
6 arr. 7:00 BOM DL 49 A332 Daily
7 arr. 7:50 EWR DL 604 B767 Daily
8 arr. 8:05 DTW DL 619 A333 Daily
9 arr. 8:15 BOS DL 266 A332 Daily
10 dep. 8:15 DTW DL 251 A333 Daily
11 arr. 8:25 ATL DL 238 A333 Daily
12 arr. 8:30 SEA DL 232 A333 Daily
13 arr. 8:30 PDX DL 178 A332 Daily
14 dep. 9:00 ATL DL 175 A333 Daily
15 dep. 9:20 JFK DL 204 B767 Daily
16 arr. 9:40 DTW DL 234 A333 Daily
17 dep. 10:15 PDX DL 179 A332 Daily
18 arr. 10:15 JFK DL 70 B767 Daily
19 dep. 10:25 MSP DL 259 A333 Daily
20 dep. 10:30 SEA DL 233 A333 Daily
21 dep. 10:35 BOM DL 50 A332 Daily
22 dep. 10:35 JFK DL 71 B767 Daily
23 dep. 10:35 DTW DL 620 A333 Daily
24 arr. 10:40 MSP DL 264 A333 Daily
25 arr. 10:40 ATL DL 32 A333 Daily
26 dep. 11:05 ATL DL 239 A333 Daily
27 dep. 11:10 BOS DL 231 A333 Daily
28 arr. 11:35 DTW DL 248 A333 Daily
29 arr. 13:00 MSP DL 244 B777 Daily
30 arr. 13:00 SEA DL 153 A333 Daily
31 dep. 13:05 ATL DL 33 A333 Daily
32 dep. 13:05 EWR DL 35 B767 Daily
33 dep. 13:05 MSP DL 260 A332 Daily
34 dep. 13:20 DTW DL 235 A333 Daily
35 dep. 14:55 BOS DL 267 A332 Daily
36 dep. 14:55 SEA DL 152 A333 Daily
37 dep. 16:50 MSP DL 265 A333 Daily
38 dep. 17:10 DTW DL 249 B777 Daily

In addition to these DL metal operations, DL also codeshares extensively with KL and AF on European regional, Transatlantic (USA, Canada) and Middle East (CAI, DXB, DOH, AUH, MCT, KWI, DMM) and Africa (NBO, EBB, KGL, JRO, DAR, LOS, ACC, HRE, LUN, JNB, CPT)

some examples:

- dep. 09:50 Vienna DL 9282 Delta Air Lines
- dep. 09:50 Portland DL 0179 Delta Air Lines
- dep. 09:50 Los Angeles DL 9378 Delta Air Lines
- dep. 09:50 Copenhagen DL 9360 Delta Air Lines
- dep. 09:50 Rome DL 9579 Delta Air Lines
- dep. 09:55 Florence DL 6615 Delta Air Lines
- dep. 09:55 Aalborg DL 9481 Delta Air Lines
- dep. 09:55 Berlin Tegel DL 9571 Delta Air Lines
- dep. 09:55 Basle DL 9316 Delta Air Lines
- dep. 10:00 Strasbourg DL 8385 Delta Air Lines
- dep. 10:00 Kilimanjaro DL 9349 Delta Air Lines
- dep. 10:00 Dar Es Salaam DL 9349 Delta Air Lines
- dep. 10:00 Venice DL 9376 Delta Air Lines
- dep. 10:00 Bremen DL 9327 Delta Air Lines
- dep. 10:00 Dusseldorf DL 9553 Delta Air Lines
- dep. 10:05 Mumbai DL 0604 Delta Air Lines
- dep. 10:05 Barcelona DL 9602 Delta Air Lines
- dep. 10:05 Kigali DL 9318 Delta Air Lines
- dep. 10:05 Entebbe DL 9318 Delta Air Lines
- dep. 10:05 Doha DL 9313 Delta Air Lines
- dep. 10:05 Muscat DL 9313 Delta Air Lines
- dep. 10:05 Warsaw DL 9322 Delta Air Lines
- dep. 10:05 Durham Teesvall DL 9353 Delta Air Lines
- dep. 10:05 Bologna DL 9576 Delta Air Lines
- dep. 10:10 Johannesburg DL 9600 Delta Air Lines
- dep. 10:10 Houston DL 9386 Delta Air Lines
- dep. 10:10 Billund DL 9334 Delta Air Lines
- dep. 10:10 Birmingham DL 9296 Delta Air Lines
- dep. 10:10 Stuttgart DL 9567 Delta Air Lines
- dep. 10:15 London Heathrow DL 9642 Delta Air Lines


User currently offlinejbmitt From United States of America, joined Jan 2002, 547 posts, RR: 2
Reply 8, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 5111 times:

Does Delta really have as many as 8 widebodies on the ground at AMS at the same time? I've seen pictures during the NW days of 4/5 near each other. Are they all on the same pier?

User currently offlinefactsonly From Montserrat, joined Aug 2012, 816 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 5078 times:

Mostly, Delta occupies gates at E Pier at AMS. Here are typical scenes of the West side of E pier and of the East side of E pier. Though these pictures were not taken simultaneously, it is the closest thing to reality I could find.


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Karl Nixon
View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Dan Miclea



and


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Maurits Vink




And if you are counting DL planes on ground, in Summer 2013 there will be 11x DL aircraft (6xA333, 2x B767, 3xA332) on E Pier simultaneously between 08.30 - 09.00am.

[Edited 2013-02-17 05:18:17]

User currently offlinetoobz From Finland, joined Jan 2010, 767 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 4950 times:

JB yes. There are more than 8 actually. They have a very nice operation there.

User currently offlineRara From Germany, joined Jan 2007, 2057 posts, RR: 2
Reply 11, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 4157 times:

Quoting factsonly (Reply 7):
Lets take a closer look at DELTA's Summer 2013 operation at AMS to determine whether we can be this dismissive of the profitabiliity of DL's AF/KLM Joint Venture across the Atlantic.

Profitability wasn't the point though, if I understood it correctly.

AMS may well be an important market for DL, and an important connection point to other Skyteam carriers, but I wouldn't really consider it a hub. A hub (as in hub-and-spoke) is an airport where passengers change aircraft to continue to their destination on the same carrier. In that respect, AMS is a hub for KL, because KL flies people from, say, HAM to CTU via AMS, but it isn't really a hub for DL because DL wouldn't fly people from ATL to BOS via AMS. You could say AMS is a major Skyteam hub (because it is), but it isn't really a DL hub.

I'm not sure whether NRT qualifies though.



Samson was a biblical tough guy, but his dad Samsonite was even more of a hard case.
User currently offlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 22726 posts, RR: 20
Reply 12, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 4093 times:

Quoting carpethead (Reply 5):
I guess Vietnam was not on the list of countries with fifth-freedom rights from Japan.

IIRC, the fifth freedom rights from non-NRT Japan are much more liberal. I know the US-Vietnam billateral allows for fifth freedom for US carriers from non-NRT Japanese airports to SGN and other Vietnamese points, for instance.



I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
User currently offlinerwy04lga From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 3176 posts, RR: 8
Reply 13, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 4049 times:

Delta continues on to BOM from AMS (so, just that 1 outbound spoke).
However, NRT is, most certainly, a hub for Delta. Delta continues on to many destinations beyond NRT using their own metal.



Just accept that some days, you're the pigeon, and other days the statue
User currently offlineORDBOSEWR From United States of America, joined Jun 2011, 426 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 3995 times:

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 12):
Quoting carpethead (Reply 5):
I guess Vietnam was not on the list of countries with fifth-freedom rights from Japan.

IIRC, the fifth freedom rights from non-NRT Japan are much more liberal. I know the US-Vietnam billateral allows for fifth freedom for US carriers from non-NRT Japanese airports to SGN and other Vietnamese points, for instance.

This is why UA operates the HKG-SGN rather than NRT. UA has 2 real connections in HKG, SGN & SIN, both of which mentioned because of distance from US mainland.


User currently offlinewindowflyer From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 74 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 3955 times:

Snapped these on September 5th 2012. Spent a couple hours in the United lounge at NRT overlooking one of the runways. Seemed like every other aircraft movement was either United or Delta.



Flown: A-300,319,320,321,330,340,380. B-727,737,747,757,767,777,787. L-1011,DC8,DC9,MD80,CRJ-200,Dash-8,HS-748,Concorde
User currently offlinefactsonly From Montserrat, joined Aug 2012, 816 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 3864 times:

Quoting Rara (Reply 11):
You could say AMS is a major Skyteam hub (because it is), but it isn't really a DL hub.


Lets see what Delta themselves call these non-USA centers of operation.

This is Delta's own statement at the bottom of all of their Press Releases about its hubs:

'A founding member of the SkyTeam global alliance, Delta participates in the industry's leading trans-Atlantic joint venture with Air France-KLM and Alitalia. Including its worldwide alliance partners, Delta offers customers more than 13,000 daily flights, with hubs in:
- Amsterdam,
- Atlanta,
- Cincinnati,
- Detroit,
- Memphis,
- Minneapolis-St. Paul,
- New York-LaGuardia,
- New York-JFK,
- Paris-Charles de Gaulle,
- Salt Lake City
- and Tokyo-Narita.

If the airline calls it a hub, who are we to say it is not!


User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7822 posts, RR: 52
Reply 17, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 3835 times:

It's hard to compare AMS and CDG with NRT for either airline. AMS and CDG are hubs that are a new breed (or at least I can't think of anything like it ever occurring.) NRT, at least for DL, exists on its own and isn't really dependent on anyone else. DL at AMS and CDG would be a soup sandwich without AF/KL... they'd desperately be missing the feed needed to make the routes work, and many of the cities DL does serve aren't the big markets out of AF/KL... in a vacuum, I'd daresay some of them are random. DL with its lower costs and 767-300s can make some routes work viably that AF/KL can't and on the flip side, AF/KL can provide A380s on heavy routes that DL obviously can't without A380s.

I see CDG and AMS surviving long term, and I see UA keeping NRT with ANA. DL at NRT I can see eventually dying out, being replaced by more point to point. If this does happen, I still think DL will have many flights to NRT, it just wouldn't be a true hub



Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
Top Of Page
Forum Index

This topic is archived and can not be replied to any more.

Printer friendly format

Similar topics:More similar topics...
AF/KL/DL/(NW) Disadvantage In Asia/Pacific posted Mon Feb 18 2008 12:34:45 by GayStudPilot
UA Expansion In Asia posted Fri Aug 18 2006 08:03:53 by SeaIFR
BMI Codeshare In UK And Europe. posted Thu Jan 6 2005 18:41:29 by Gilesdavies
Future Ryanair Hubs In Italy And Scandinavia? posted Mon Apr 22 2002 11:56:23 by Airblue
AA's Hubs In BNA And Rdu! posted Sun Jan 6 2002 04:46:31 by Alexinwa
Thai Increases Flights To Asia And Europe posted Fri Oct 19 2001 19:28:43 by Jiml1126
Gulf Air T.v Advert Going On Air In UK And Europe posted Sat May 26 2001 22:44:18 by GF-A330
Best Airline In Asia And World! posted Sun Nov 28 1999 02:48:06 by Airline2000
NWA And UA 747s In Europe posted Thu Jan 26 2006 05:55:53 by Mudboy
UA's And NW's USA-NRT-Other Cities In Asia Flights posted Tue Nov 30 2004 16:18:20 by Pe@rson