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What Is The Issue Between Canada And The UAE?  
User currently offlinemozart From Luxembourg, joined Aug 2003, 2182 posts, RR: 13
Posted (1 year 7 months 1 week 2 hours ago) and read 10690 times:

I remember having read somewhere that Canada and the UAE had a row about traffic rights which in effect capped the number of flights between the two to a low number. Also, Canada is one of the few "rich friendly" countries whose citizens are required to get a visa to enter the UAE (unlike the USA or any of the EU countries).

What is the story there?

105 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinerwsea From Netherlands, joined Jan 2005, 3105 posts, RR: 2
Reply 1, posted (1 year 7 months 1 week 1 hour ago) and read 10624 times:

Here's some background reading:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canada%...ted_Arab_Emirates_aviation_dispute


User currently offlineflyingalex From Germany, joined Jul 2010, 1016 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (1 year 7 months 1 week 1 hour ago) and read 10593 times:

Executive summary:

Canada has rules whereby new airlines are given three flights a week to start with, to one airport. As traffic is proven, more flights can be applied for.

The UAE's carriers (Etihad and Emirates) wanted more slots and more cities, and they wanted them right away. Canada said no, wait your turn like everybody else, and the UAE threw a hissy fit.



Public service announcement: "It's" = "it is". To indicate posession, write "its." Looks wrong, but it's correct grammar
User currently offline3rdGen From Bahrain, joined Jul 2011, 236 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (1 year 7 months 1 week 1 hour ago) and read 10548 times:

All foreign citizens need visas to enter the UAE. The difference is that the cost for Canadian Citizens and the availability was changed to make life more difficult.

The story is just that Emirates want more flights into Canada and the Canadian govt wouldn't (still won't) allow it as there is fear about the consequences for AC. So they had a spat and the UAE government kicked out the Canadian Forces from a camp in the UAE and imposed the visa restrictions. Not much more else to it.
Currently the UAE has rights for six flights a week into Canada, split evenly between EY and EK.


User currently offlineQuokkas From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 4, posted (1 year 7 months 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 10376 times:

The basics that the UAE requested additional access, including frequencies and gateways. Canada did offer to allow additional gateways but within the same overall number of seats sold. Effectively the Canadians were saying, "sure you can go to YVR but you'll have to sell fewer tickets out of YYZ." It was an offer intended to be rejected. The UAE took umbrage at this calculated insult and responded in kind.

Quoting 3rdGen (Reply 3):
All foreign citizens need visas to enter the UAE

Previously citizens of Canada could obtain a free visa on entry, unlike citizens of the UAE visiting Canada who have always had to apply and pay in advance.

Quoting 3rdGen (Reply 3):
government kicked out the Canadian Forces from a camp in the UAE

In accordance with the lease, which had expired (an extension had previously been granted) and Canada had already announced they would be winding down their presence.


User currently offline3rdGen From Bahrain, joined Jul 2011, 236 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (1 year 7 months 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 10250 times:

Quoting Quokkas (Reply 4):
Previously citizens of Canada could obtain a free visa on entry, unlike citizens of the UAE visiting Canada who have always had to apply and pay in advance.

Can citizens of western countries enter the UAE for free? I'm sure they still have to pay something at the immigration counter.

I think what you are talking about is getting a visa on arrival, the privilege of which was cancelled for Canadians. Which is why I said "the availability was changed". The original poster said that " Canada is one of the few "rich friendly" countries whose citizens are required to get a visa to enter the UAE (unlike the USA or any of the EU countries)." No even citizens of the US and EU are required to get a visa, they just get it on arrival as opposed to getting it beforehand.


User currently offlineokees From Canada, joined Sep 2005, 424 posts, RR: 5
Reply 6, posted (1 year 7 months 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 10206 times:

Quoting 3rdGen (Reply 5):
Can citizens of western countries enter the UAE for free?

Before the visa restrictions, I went to Dubai and got a 60 day visa at the immigration counter for free. No I believe the visa for entry into the UAE is close to 1000 dollars!.



mobs jakis
User currently offlineSYDSpotter From Australia, joined Oct 2012, 167 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (1 year 7 months 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 10205 times:

Quoting 3rdGen (Reply 5):
Can citizens of western countries enter the UAE for free? I'm sure they still have to pay something at the immigration counter.

I think what you are talking about is getting a visa on arrival, the privilege of which was cancelled for Canadians. Which is why I said "the availability was changed". The original poster said that " Canada is one of the few "rich friendly" countries whose citizens are required to get a visa to enter the UAE (unlike the USA or any of the EU countries)." No even citizens of the US and EU are required to get a visa, they just get it on arrival as opposed to getting it beforehand.

For Australian's there is no visa fee. I think that is the case for EU/US citizens as well. Like the Canadians, we still need to get a visa on arrival but it's free whereas the Canadians must pay a fee.



319_320_321_332_333_388 / 734_738_743_744_762_763_772_773_77W
User currently offlineQuokkas From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 8, posted (1 year 7 months 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 10149 times:

Quoting 3rdGen (Reply 5):
Can citizens of western countries enter the UAE for free?

I have never been required to pay anything when I have entered the UAE. Sponsorship may be required and this can be arranged through the airline (for example EK, EY, FZ) or through a hotel where accommodation has been booked. Citizens of the following countries can obtain a visa on arrival free of charge:
Australia, Andorra, Austria , Brunei, Belgium, Denmark , Finland, France, Germany, Greece, Hong Kong, Iceland, Ireland, Italy, Japan, Liechtenstein,Luxembourg, Malaysia, Monaco, Netherlands, New Zealand, Norway, Portugal, San Marino, Singapore, South Korea, Spain, Sweden, Switzerland, United Kingdom, United States of America , The Vatican.

At immigration a stamp is placed in the passport and this is valid for 30 days. A 30 day extension can be applied for but this involves a charge. Different rules apply for those wishing to take up residence and employment.




Corrected spelling

[Edited 2013-02-18 04:26:46]

User currently offline3rdGen From Bahrain, joined Jul 2011, 236 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (1 year 7 months 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 10063 times:

Ok, thanks for the clarification. I don't know of any other GCC state that lets anyone in for free. In Qatar you have to pay by credit card, no cash.

User currently offlinemozart From Luxembourg, joined Aug 2003, 2182 posts, RR: 13
Reply 10, posted (1 year 7 months 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 9894 times:

I am a EU citizen but not a UAE resident. and I use an "e-gate" access, basically a credit-card sized card that lets me use turnstyle checkpoints with biometric controls. I pay nothing and I do not get a visa. Only my ID is checked (biometrically so to speak), but no stamp is in my passport.

Thanks for the other background information.


User currently offlineIrishAyes From United States of America, joined Jan 2008, 2191 posts, RR: 15
Reply 11, posted (1 year 7 months 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 9535 times:

Quoting 3rdGen (Reply 3):
The story is just that Emirates want more flights into Canada and the Canadian govt wouldn't (still won't) allow it as there is fear about the consequences for AC.

I think it's also important to note that there seems to be a lot of contention over what type of traffic each carrier is targeting (or protecting) and that's been the primary reason for the spat. EK claims that there is enough O&D demand between Canada and UAE to justify greater weekly frequencies into YYZ, as well as expand into YYC, YVR, YUL etc. AC, conversely, argues that EK simply wants to siphon off traffic between those regions and countries in SE Asia, Africa, Middle East, etc over the DXB connecting hub, which would be AC's loss. Although AC doesn't fly to virtually ANY of those cities nonstop from Canada on its own metal, it does so via Lufthansa thanks to the transatlantic JV between the two carriers. So not only does AC have something at stake here, but also its partner carriers.



next flights: jfk-icn, icn-hkg-bkk-cdg, cdg-phl-msp
User currently offlineBA0197 From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2011, 313 posts, RR: 1
Reply 12, posted (1 year 7 months 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 9508 times:

Quoting flyingalex (Reply 2):
Executive summary:

Canada has rules whereby new airlines are given three flights a week to start with, to one airport. As traffic is proven, more flights can be applied for.

The UAE's carriers (Etihad and Emirates) wanted more slots and more cities, and they wanted them right away. Canada said no, wait your turn like everybody else, and the UAE threw a hissy fit.
Quoting flyingalex (Reply 2):
All foreign citizens need visas to enter the UAE. The difference is that the cost for Canadian Citizens and the availability was changed to make life more difficult.

The story is just that Emirates want more flights into Canada and the Canadian govt wouldn't (still won't) allow it as there is fear about the consequences for AC. So they had a spat and the UAE government kicked out the Canadian Forces from a camp in the UAE and imposed the visa restrictions. Not much more else to it.
Currently the UAE has rights for six flights a week into Canada, split evenly between EY and EK.

There is both sides of the argument for you  


User currently offlineSCQ83 From United States of America, joined Oct 2012, 946 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (1 year 7 months 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 9488 times:

Quoting 3rdGen (Reply 9):

It is the only GCC country for which is free for US/EU citizens. In Kuwait, Bahrain, Oman and Qatar you can get it on arrival but you gotta pay a fee and in Saudi Arabia you need a pre-arranged visa.


User currently offlineJoeCanuck From Canada, joined Dec 2005, 5471 posts, RR: 30
Reply 14, posted (1 year 7 months 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 9361 times:

Quoting 3rdGen (Reply 3):
there is fear about the consequences for AC.

It's not about protecting AC. If that was the case, then the feds would limit all international airlines...especially those directly competing on AC routes.

Policy is that more slots are reserved for countries with the most O&D traffic. Since there is very little UAE O&D traffic, and slots are a finite commodity, countries with more direct passenger traffic between them and Canada are given priority.

The UAE got upset when they couldn't get what they wanted, so they started playing silly games which has netted them exactly nothing. Very few Canadians live in the UAE and most of the ones who do work there. That means their companies pay for their visas. Fewer Canadians visit the UAE so there has been very little impact with the visa changes.

It's basically a non issue for the vast majority of Canadians.

[Edited 2013-02-18 13:45:28]


What the...?
User currently offlineAirCanada787 From Canada, joined Nov 2010, 283 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (1 year 7 months 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 9166 times:

Quoting flyingalex (Reply 2):

The UAE's carriers (Etihad and Emirates) wanted more slots and more cities, and they wanted them right away. Canada said no, wait your turn like everybody else, and the UAE threw a hissy fit.
Quoting 3rdGen (Reply 3):
Currently the UAE has rights for six flights a week into Canada, split evenly between EY and EK.

UAE carriers got six slots right away. Emirates said they wanted at least seven before they would begin service to Canada. While EK kept complaining Etihad decided to start their own service to Canada using three of the slots. EK was then only left with three for themselves but they could have had all six if they wouldn't have held out for seven.

Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 14):
Quoting 3rdGen (Reply 3):
there is fear about the consequences for AC.

It's not about protecting AC. If that was the case, then the feds would limit all international airlines...especially those directly competing on AC routes.

Policy is that more slots are reserved for countries with the most O&D traffic. Since there is very little UAE O&D traffic, and slots are a finite commodity, countries with more direct passenger traffic between them and Canada are given priority.

The UAE got upset when they couldn't get what they wanted, so they started playing silly games which has netted them exactly nothing. Very few Canadians live in the UAE and most of the ones who do work there. That means their companies pay for their visas. Fewer Canadians visit the UAE so there has been very little impact with the visa changes.

        

Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 14):
It's basically a non issue for the vast majority of Canadians.

Indeed many Canadians don't even know about this 'issue' much less care.



The mind, like a parachute, functions only when open.
User currently offlineElPistolero From Canada, joined Feb 2012, 1019 posts, RR: 4
Reply 16, posted (1 year 7 months 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 9094 times:

Oh dear.  
Quoting flyingalex (Reply 2):
Canada has rules whereby new airlines are given three flights a week to start with, to one airport. As traffic is proven, more flights can be applied for.

EK started serving two-three years before the spat started. They claim they proved there was enough traffic in that period. Read into that what you will.

Quoting flyingalex (Reply 2):
Canada said no, wait your turn like everybody else, and the UAE threw a hissy fit.

Not really. The landing rights got tied to a military base lease extension (it had been extended before allegedly on the basis of resolving the landing rights issue). The talks stalled. The lease expired. Relations are on the mend now.

Quoting 3rdGen (Reply 3):
The difference is that the cost for Canadian Citizens and the availability was changed to make life more difficult.

I believe that the visa fees are significantly lower if they fly EK or EY. It was an opportunistic shot at LH more than AC or Canada (unless the passenger is so wedded to AC/LH that he won't fly anyone else)

Quoting 3rdGen (Reply 3):
So they had a spat and the UAE government kicked out the Canadian Forces from a camp in the UAE and imposed the visa restrictions.

Not quite. Lease expired. Talks on extending the lease stalled with the talks on landing rights.

Quoting 3rdGen (Reply 5):
Can citizens of western countries enter the UAE for free? I'm sure they still have to pay something at the immigration counter.

Yes. Apart from Canadians.

Quoting okees (Reply 6):
No I believe the visa for entry into the UAE is close to 1000 dollars!.

I've read that those fees are lower if you fly EK/EY. Some even claim its included in the cost of the ticket. Personally, I have no idea.

Quoting IrishAyes (Reply 11):
Although AC doesn't fly to virtually ANY of those cities nonstop from Canada on its own metal, it does so via Lufthansa thanks to the transatlantic JV between the two carriers. So not only does AC have something at stake here, but also its partner carriers.

In a nutshell.

Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 14):
It's not about protecting AC. If that was the case, then the feds would limit all international airlines...especially those directly competing on AC routes.

Before the EU Open Skies agreement, AF couldn't fly to YVR - thats how restrictive Canadian rights were/are. Because of Open Skies with the EU ( a reflection of its strong links with the EU, as well as its mediocre/poor links with everyone east/.south of EU - the latest overtures to India/China/Asia notwithstanding), AC can't keep EU carriers out. Non EU carriers are restricted - TK and ET are both examples, not to mention QR and now SV. The 'AC routes' bit is irrelevant - AC opposed EK on the grounds of it affecting YOW-FRA.

AC TATL network relies (to whatever extent) on feeding traffic to partners at hubs - this was what AC itself cited in its plea for protection. Is this about protecting AC? If its not, why is it so difficult for us to hand out 1 daily frequency to every new airline, knowing full well that frequency affects a route's viability (whether they use it or not should be the airline's prerogative, not the Governments - or so says Canada's 'commitment' to 'free market' principles)? That said, to blame only AC for this would be wholly misleading, though one has to ask how much the interests of one private company should be allowed to dictate public and foreign policy.

The most absurd thing about it all is that AC claimed Canada would lose 10,000 jobs if EK got a daily flight. As it turns out, EK didn't get them. That didn't stop AC from playing a direct hand in the loss of 2700 high-skilled jobs. Waiting to see how long it takes for AC to blame EK/EY for those job losses.

Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 14):
Policy is that more slots are reserved for countries with the most O&D traffic

Still waiting for KL and OS to prove they warrant the amount of frequencies they have. Or, to put it more succinctly, this is a smokescreen. Some airlines don't have daily frequency, let alone new cities, several years after they start serving. TK and its desire for YUL is one such example.

Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 14):
The UAE got upset when they couldn't get what they wanted, so they started playing silly games which has netted them exactly nothing.

Correct. It also didn't cost them anything. Which is more than we can say about Canada.

A bizzare episode with no winners and only one loser. As both foreign ministers have pointed out, its in the past now. Nothing to look at. Canada's insularity will ensure its no great loss - after all, the only group that is actually affected is the South Asian minority, most of whom can benefit greatly from AC/LH's one stop service to South Asia (read India - no EU carrier flies to Pakistan, Bangladesh, Nepal, Sri Lanka - aka the rest of South Asia). In fairness, PK has flights to Canada - not sure how many, but its not daily. 3 weekly or 5 weekly or something. And UL has apparently got an agreement with AC as well.


User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 25356 posts, RR: 22
Reply 17, posted (1 year 7 months 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 9063 times:

Quoting ElPistolero (Reply 16):
Before the EU Open Skies agreement, AF couldn't fly to YVR

AF was permitted to serve YVR under the old bilateral but only from PPT. They of course never served that route. QF did operate PPT-YVR with 5th freedom rights for a few years in the 1970s.

Quoting ElPistolero (Reply 16):
Still waiting for KL and OS to prove they warrant the amount of frequencies they have.

KL or OS or any other EU-based carriers don't have to prove anything. Under Open Skies they can operate as many frequencies as they want between all 27 EU countries (plus Switzerland, Norway, Iceland) and anywhere in Canada. Vice versa for Canadian carriers.


User currently offlineElPistolero From Canada, joined Feb 2012, 1019 posts, RR: 4
Reply 18, posted (1 year 7 months 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 9008 times:

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 17):

KL or OS or any other EU-based carriers don't have to prove anything. Under Open Skies they can operate as many frequencies as they want between all 27 EU countries (plus Switzerland, Norway, Iceland) and anywhere in Canada. Vice versa for Canadian carriers.

I know. Thats the entire point - namely that Canada engages in practices that are counter intuitive - allowing LH and KL to fly daily from four cities to any number of desintations (including ADD), while demanding that ET prove traffic on ADD with - what was it - two weekly? - even though the policy is, allegedly, to promote direct links.

Meanwhile, the rest of the developed world has no qualms about giving at least one daily frequenciy to anyone who asks.

Go figure.

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 17):
AF was permitted to serve YVR under the old bilateral but only from PPT.

I learn something new everyday. Thats an interesting tidbit.


User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 25356 posts, RR: 22
Reply 19, posted (1 year 7 months 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 8960 times:

Quoting ElPistolero (Reply 18):
Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 17):

KL or OS or any other EU-based carriers don't have to prove anything. Under Open Skies they can operate as many frequencies as they want between all 27 EU countries (plus Switzerland, Norway, Iceland) and anywhere in Canada. Vice versa for Canadian carriers.

I know. Thats the entire point - namely that Canada engages in practices that are counter intuitive - allowing LH and KL to fly daily from four cities to any number of desintations (including ADD), while demanding that ET prove traffic on ADD with - what was it - two weekly? - even though the policy is, allegedly, to promote direct links.

The Canada-EU Open Skies agreement doesn't necessarily permit KL or LH to operate daily between Canada and ADD. That depends on the bilaterals between the Netherlands/Germany and Ethiopia.


User currently offlineElPistolero From Canada, joined Feb 2012, 1019 posts, RR: 4
Reply 20, posted (1 year 7 months 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 8922 times:

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 19):

The Canada-EU Open Skies agreement doesn't necessarily permit KL or LH to operate daily between Canada and ADD. That depends on the bilaterals between the Netherlands/Germany and Ethiopia.

Of course. But one would imagine that if the goal was to pursue direct links with a wide range of countries (a very important sticking point, it should be noted, in the EK case), factors that would affect those links (like KL and LH) would also be taken into account while determining how many frequencies to provide.

To provide frequencies in isolation without actually considering whats going on out there would be akin to throwing a book down a flight of 5 stairs and providing frequencies according to the step the book landed on (fourth step = four, and so on). If the aim is to encourage Ethiopia-Canada links, then wouldn't it make more sense to give ET 7 frequencies and let it determine how many it wants to use? Or is that asking too much?

After all, EK, ET, TK, QR, EY, SV - all of these boil down to the whole 2/3 weekly policy, even while their main competitors are allowed daily flights. The UAE case is nothing special in this regard, though Canadians have a happy habit of pointing to the "direct links" clause everytime EK comes up. It is, of course, curiously absent when they defend the 2-3 weekly frequncies that everyone else gets.


User currently offlineandrefranca From Brazil, joined May 2011, 614 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (1 year 7 months 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 8879 times:

Quoting Quokkas (Reply 8):
I have never been required to pay anything when I have entered the UAE. Sponsorship may be required and this can be arranged through the airline (for example EK, EY, FZ) or through a hotel where accommodation has been booked. Citizens of the following countries can obtain a visa on arrival free of charge:
Australia, Andorra, Austria , Brunei, Belgium, Denmark , Finland, France, Germany, Greece, Hong Kong, Iceland, Ireland, Italy, Japan, Liechtenstein,Luxembourg, Malaysia, Monaco, Netherlands, New Zealand, Norway, Portugal, San Marino, Singapore, South Korea, Spain, Sweden, Switzerland, United Kingdom, United States of America , The Vatican.

At immigration a stamp is placed in the passport and this is valid for 30 days. A 30 day extension can be applied for but this involves a charge. Different rules apply for those wishing to take up residence and employment.

The "visa requirement" is a farse! yeah the "rich friendly" nations get on arrival, and most of the others get it when they book their flights with EK, on their website, in less than 24 hrs? WOW WHAT A SHOCK!...... Not  


User currently offlineJoeCanuck From Canada, joined Dec 2005, 5471 posts, RR: 30
Reply 22, posted (1 year 7 months 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 8774 times:

Quoting ElPistolero (Reply 16):
Before the EU Open Skies agreement, AF couldn't fly to YVR

Yet dozens of other international airlines could.

Quoting ElPistolero (Reply 16):
The most absurd thing about it all is that AC claimed Canada would lose 10,000 jobs if EK got a daily flight. As it turns out, EK didn't get them. That didn't stop AC from playing a direct hand in the loss of 2700 high-skilled jobs. Waiting to see how long it takes for AC to blame EK/EY for those job losses.

Yah...just like they promised to fly to YYC...fantasy jobs just like fantasy routes.

Quoting ElPistolero (Reply 16):

Still waiting for KL and OS to prove they warrant the amount of frequencies they have.

Both have significantly more O&D traffic with Canada than the UAE.

Quoting ElPistolero (Reply 16):
Correct. It also didn't cost them anything. Which is more than we can say about Canada.

It didn't cost Canada a thing. Mirage was going to be shut down anyway and any costs of moving would have happened regardless. Canada does very little business with the UAE and what business there was, continued just fine. People working in the UAE have always had to pay for visas and their companies continued to do so. Very few Canadians ever chose to vacation in the UAE so any visa fees were a non issue.

Canadians weren't then, and aren't now and never will be, hampered in any way by the current level of flights to and from the UAE.



What the...?
User currently offlineQuokkas From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 23, posted (1 year 7 months 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 8696 times:

Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 22):
Yah...just like they promised to fly to YYC...fantasy jobs just like fantasy routes.

I am assuming by "they" you are referring to EK rather than AC. If so, EK didn't promise anything. They provided an economic assessment to support their request for additional rights. Whether the assessment was correct is open to dispute and a request for rights is not a guarantee of the use of those rights. An example is access to Clark in the Philippines. EK obtained rights in 2009 but has only just announced the commencement of that route. EK could start (has rights to) Bratislava but I don't see them starting in the near future.

What is clear is that the UAE and EK were unwilling to accept a deal that offered slightly fewer seats overall than they currently sell. Starting YYC under Canada's offer would have meant either giving up a rotation at YYZ or purchasing smaller aircraft. At present EK may sell seats to operate 3 x weekly A380 or approx 1,550 seats weekly. If EK wanted to start daily to both YYC and YYZ they would need to purchase something a lot smaller than the aircraft in their current fleet or fly near empty. Unfortunately, Bombardier don't have anything to offer with sufficient range.

I am not competent to judge the state of the market in Canada and accept that the Government of Canada has the right to determine its own policies. But I believe the simple economics of Canada's "offer" meant that it was predictably unacceptable and was meant to be.


User currently offlineElPistolero From Canada, joined Feb 2012, 1019 posts, RR: 4
Reply 24, posted (1 year 7 months 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 8458 times:

Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 22):
Yet dozens of other international airlines could.

Thats nice, but it still raises the issue of undue Government interference in the supply and demand equation. Hence restrictive policy.

Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 22):
Yah...just like they promised to fly to YYC...fantasy jobs just like fantasy routes.

I was referring to Aveos - the Canadian maintenance company. Heard of them? Try telling them they were doing 'fantasy' jobs. Well, I suppose you don't need to - AC already has. Jobs that existed were lost - hence "loss of 2700 jobs".



Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 22):

Both have significantly more O&D traffic with Canada than the UAE.

Enough Netherlands-Canada traffic to warrant 20+ frequencies to 4 cities? Ironic, given your disdain for fantasy.

Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 22):
It didn't cost Canada a thing.

Well, there was that odd UN Security Council episode. Oh, and a year scouting all types of Middle Eastern countries before settling on setting up a base in Kuwait. And the inconvenience of using Cyprus as a staging base - increasing the flight distance significantly. But as we all know, fuel in 2010/11 cost nothing.

Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 22):
Mirage was going to be shut down anyway and any costs of moving would have happened regardless.

That explains the decision to open a new base in Kuwait to replace it. The UAE base itself is still open - apparently its being used by the Aussies and Dutch.

http://www.ctvnews.ca/canadian-force...re-staging-base-in-kuwait-1.669135

Amusing revisionism. That said, its all but over. Relations are on the mend.


25 WestJet747 : Calculated insult? The Canadian government was blocking UAE carriers from poaching non-O&D traffic (which everyone on A-net knows EK and EY rely
26 Quokkas : Because the request and preference is for daily flights and the calculations made are for daily flights - i.e 14x and not the 5x in your example. But
27 Post contains links ElPistolero : As opposed to LH, KL, AF, LX....? Lets not forget that the UAE has a pretty significant O&D market, what with the large expat population there. ?
28 3rdGen : I'm waiting to see if either QR or FZ purchase the C-series in an attempt to gain more rights into Canada. Al-Bakr has been quietly hinting that he'd
29 JoeCanuck : Governments all over the globe use aviation rights as pawns in their international games. Both EK and EY are doing the bidding of their respective go
30 yyz717 : Exactly. It's really only an external issue for EK who are being thwarted in their expectations/demands for unfettered international authority, and p
31 777way : Aww .. but they provide evrerything for your types to enjoy from booze to prostitutin, to skimpy clad women walking around freely unhindered, clubs a
32 yyz717 : South Asians. The ones who live for generations in Dubai but have no right of residency or citizenship. Do you support this policy? These are not Wes
33 777way : Unfortunately things dont work the way you would like them to be, it might be un-Canadian/Western/Democratic but its also un-Diplomatic and foolish, D
34 Post contains images SYDSpotter : And so it is fine to do trade with China then? There are some well documented cases of human rights abuses there too. I can understand both the UAE/C
35 Post contains links ElPistolero : Some more than others. Australia, the US, EU (just about any developed country really) have more liberal aviation policies than us. Their threshold f
36 Post contains links and images WestJet747 : That's the whole crux of the argument - we aren't going to just give them what they want because they want it. But to revisiting my numbers (complete
37 ElPistolero : I think he was referring to the cargo capacity that would be lost by switching to those aircraft (payload restrictions?). Errr...India? 9th biggest s
38 Viscount724 : You have mentioned KL several times. The Netherlands has always been very liberal in granting traffic rights to foreign carriers. CP was operating fr
39 ElPistolero : I never said that. And I certainly don't want less of KL (or any carrier) in Canada. The point is that if KL can enjoy Carte Blanche without : a) pro
40 brilondon : Was that a fuel stop when travelling from SYD to YVR and the rest of Canada?
41 yyz717 : Maybe, but so what? Canada is extremely liberal (by world standards) in just about every other economic, political and social measure. We certainly d
42 777way : I think that tiny minority might be pretty ok with the thrice weekly A380 and have no issue over EK non-expansion in Can, infact it might be EK using
43 JoeCanuck : In 2012, around 850,000 tourists stayed at least one night in the UAE, with the average being just over 2 nights stay. That's the total number of tour
44 Post contains links ElPistolero : Although this seems straightforward enough, it seems to be lost on a lot of folk here: India =/= South Asia (and vice versa). Most European carriers s
45 SYDSpotter : I think you got your figures wrong. There were alot more than 850,000 tourists (that stay > 1 night). Add one more zero to your number and you're
46 pnwtraveler : My one and only post to this thread as I am bored silly of the argument is to correct some history being loosely thrown about. Frankly Canadians don't
47 Post contains images C172Akula : I can't wait until this gets resolved and EK can start daily A388 service to YYC...
48 flyingalex : Hogwash. British Airways serves Bangladesh and the Maldives, and will soon serve Sri Lanka again. In addition, several European airlines serve the Ma
49 Post contains links ElPistolero : "4. For the purposes of Article XI (Capacity) the Government of the United Arab Emirates shall be entitled to allocate the following capacity among i
50 Viscount724 : It was QF's only route to YVR for a few years in the '70s, SYD-NAN-PPT-YVR, with 5th freedom rights PPT-YVR, operated by the 707-338C. They tried tha
51 Viscount724 : I disagree. I've been told by people who should know that the wording splitting the frequencies betweek EK and EY was a requirement of the UAE.
52 Viscount724 : Canada often bases such decisions on O&D traffic data. I doubt there's very much O&D to/from Qatar. You may recall that AC was prevented from
53 pnwtraveler : July 2011 was the inaugural flight. They haven't asked the government for more yet. They also aren't fully using their cargo frequencies. Etihad's fi
54 Post contains links ElPistolero : I find it very odd that "people who should know" are sharing details with people who "shouldn't know" (what with the apparent secrecy surrounding the
55 hoons90 : That's true. Wasn't it only recently that Canada signed an open skies agreement with South Korea? Even despite the fact that there has been substanti
56 ytz : We were already staging through Cyprus. Just cause you don't read about it in the papers.... As to the whole issue, I think the part that bothers mos
57 yyz717 : I agree with you on all these points. The UAE govt has come to expect carte blanche rights into every target country for EK, EY, etc. They came acros
58 Post contains links ElPistolero : Is it really any different than Canada batting for AC by imposing restrictive frequencies on airlines from any country that AC isn't interested in fl
59 RussianJet : Meh, if they want to reduce the number of people spending loads of cash in their ridiculous desert shopping mall let them let them get on with it. A r
60 threepoint : Playing the airspace-restriction card would be a very serious escalation, tantamount to an act of aggression. This dispute hardly warranted such acti
61 Post contains images StarAC17 : The bi-lateral stated 6 daily frequencies between Canada and the UAE. EK initially refused to serve YYZ unless it got a daily service which wasn't gr
62 darkroast : Heck, we barely have sex with people we ARE married to. Birthday and anniversary excluded. Sorry, couldn't resist that one. And StarAC17 WAS stirring
63 RussianJet : Oh yeah, and on the matter of pot - that's another thing you could face jail for, accidentally having stepped on it in the street in the UAE and 'pos
64 ElPistolero : Is there any source that says that EK would have taken all 6 slots if it could have, and that Canada would not have objected to this? Correct. EK wan
65 Post contains images Quokkas : My understanding of the current agreement is that Emirates can only fly to four destinations within Germany but there are no limits to the frequency
66 StarAC17 : They probably had a shot at them but EY actually started serving YYZ first so EK had to take the remaining slots, because the Canadian government has
67 Post contains images ElPistolero : . Thanks. I did not know that. EK is pretty outspoken - if they have this stance, then its bound to be out there in the public record. When did they
68 777way : lets not forget the canning that american teen got in Singapore for vandalism. I find it hard to believe EK shunned six weekly which is almost daily
69 Post contains images Kaiarahi : It was. Maybe because EK and EY are controlled by competing princes from different royal families (we've been over this on about 137 threads so far).
70 ElPistolero : Why isn't this thread replete with examples of the UAE including similar clauses in its other bilaterals? Why did it choose to do so only with Canada
71 yyz717 : Sounds more like Germany is a bilateral negotiation pushover. I prefer Canada's more principled, consistent stand. Not always. Not with nations such
72 StarAC17 : I'm betting that EY was in the works long before this bi-lateral was negotiated. AC will start IST this summer and while I'm not sure of the frequenc
73 Post contains images Kaiarahi : Airlines don't get established overnight. I have no problem with Canada putting its own economic, trade and strategic interests ahead of the commerci
74 Post contains links ElPistolero : Perhaps, but it still wouldn't make sense for the UAE to restrict their own (only) airline by giving the Canadian Government the power to decide how
75 ElPistolero : That really depends on whether Camp Mirage was a strategic asset or not. We know what at least one minister thought. In fact, he wore a cap to that e
76 ytz : Quite different. Canada has had numerous trade disputes with the US and the EU. Have we ever tied our military relations to those disputes? Heck, rem
77 ElPistolero : Are you really comparing Canada-EU and Canada-US relations to Canada-UAE relations? I don't think Canada or the UAE need each other as much as Canada
78 ytz : Exactly my point. They thought, we'd cave, because we aren't as big as the US or the UK or Germany. Meh. We've transited through India. You just neve
79 ElPistolero : Or they used their only bargaining chip after a year of talking and no progress. For whatever reason, we thought we could get away with ignoring thei
80 ytz : @El Pistolero Quote wars are getting tiresome. Let's condense the discussion. My key argument is as follows.... I do agree that the UAE shoudl have go
81 RussianJet : That's a totally different kettle of fish. Vandalism is a readily-identifiable crime. Having a speck of a drug in the tread of your shoe which could
82 luckyone : Gulf Air. Until 2005 Gulf Air was partially funded by Abu Dhabi, and around that time was flying intercontinental flights from Dubai.
83 ElPistolero : And mine is equally simple: if you want something, be prepared to give something in return. My 7 a week stance applies to countries that have 'nothin
84 aerokiwi : It may be an issue that's "behind us" but its ramifications are ongoing. A recent visit to Canada highlighted just how amazingly restrictive commercia
85 yyz717 : I haven't "decided" anything. Merely stating facts. Canada's trade flows are overwhelmingly domestic and to/from the US. Almost all the rest is with
86 aerokiwi : What fact? That you think Canada has all the bilaterals it needs? That's an opinion, an extremely narrow one at that. Remember the old US patent offi
87 Viscount724 : It's hard to justify that statement when you consider that Canada has long had one of the world's largest open skies agreements with the U.S., which
88 ytz : It's an entirely relevant matter. I won't go too deep on this forum. But we are looking at establishing rapid reaction bases in some key locations. N
89 ytz : This, then raises the question, if we are open to Europe and the US, what is the issue with opening up to the UAE, Turkey and Qatar?
90 777way : ^ Dare I say all white, judeo-christian, western, democratic, makes you wonder if racial preference is the dominant factor in Canada's dealings, I kno
91 ytz : More nonsense from you. This is a country that has had a Sikh Punjabi non-native born premier, elected in a province where (although the immigrant po
92 sebring : As Viscount has noted, the KL bilateral was negotiated in an entirely different era, when route rights were dispensed with an eye-dropper, and were v
93 Post contains links ElPistolero : Sure. How many are we setting up? And how many of them will be set up in ME countries that want to fly to Canada? And more to the point, why did we d
94 Kaiarahi : Yeah right. That would explain recent new/expanded bilaterals with Algeria, Barbados, Brazil, China, Colombia, Costa Rica, Cuba, Curacao, Dominican R
95 Kaiarahi : While you're at it, you may want to inform yourself on Canada's immigration policies and immigrant selection criteria instead of throwing around base
96 StarAC17 : That's how the business world works and life in general works, its all about leverage. If you can't give me anything of value then why should I give
97 777way : Those werent mentioned by the poster, therefore benefit of doubt. Guess who's financing that. Serving the place since 1988 with 747-200 / 300, A310 a
98 ElPistolero : I'm still not comfortable with that statement. Equalization payments are one thing. At the very least, they are race/ethnic/ national origin neutral.
99 777way : But you said this before. And then. Isnt that irrelevant? the point is/was pointed out by the poster that PIA fliy to Canada and since over 20 years
100 sebring : Listen, this is what it is all about, and if you want to deflect a purely economic issue into some kind of racial subsidy, you are entitled to do so
101 ElPistolero : No, you're right. I did say that. It was more of an oversight that anything. That said, the point remains - namely that airlines like PK and UL face
102 Viscount724 : No, the Canada-Chile bilateral is very liberal and permits the Chilean designated carrier to operate an unlimited number of nonstop flights between a
103 StarAC17 : Well AC serves SCL directly so I would assume any carrier out of Chile would have the same rights, however that could be tied in with an agreement wi
104 Viscount724 : Disagree. There are far more one-stop connecting destinations in Europe, Africa the Middle East and Asia via FRA than via the other connecting points
105 Post contains images ElPistolero : We can keep going in circles over this one. If people prefer that single connection, they have the option of paying up whatever it takes to make that
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