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Is There A Future For Iberia?  
User currently offlinespantax From Belgium, joined Nov 2004, 324 posts, RR: 1
Posted (1 year 10 months 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 12639 times:

Well, the strike is on and running. Now I would like to ask your opinions about the "official" cause of the strike, the lay off of 3,800 employees due to the acquisition of IB by the British to form IAG, that is: the union of IB with British Airways. In Spain, the most recurrent explanation goes like this, in scam mode: "IB was profitable, healthy, with a good position in Spain and was leader to/from Latin America. The British buccaneers arrived and helped by a gang of unscrupulous managers bought IB by a derisory price just to dismantle it, transfer the most profitable routes to BA, fill the deficit of the pension fund of BA employees and use for free a brand new terminal (T-4) at Madrid, good location for future expansion to America and Africa".

Well, as a normal passenger, not a professional, I don't believe this version. I have always seen (and suffered) the terrible incompetence of IB, their disregard for the client, this fundamental Spanish trait of a lot of hot air for nothing. For me IB is a kind of heritage from Franco (as the king of Spain, by the way), thus, a State controlled entity, with all the build-in corruption that this meant with Franco and that has continued to this very day, and consequently an unsound structure prone to failure and neither well prepared to cope with hard times nor with the new aviation environment in Europe (deregulation, low cost...). But, on the other side, I had the feeling, when it happened, that the sale/merger to/with BA was too complicate, unnecessary, nonsense. As experience has proved, in business bigger is not always better.

I know this has been discussed, but now, with the strike going on, the reduction of flights, Iberia Express, the entry into service of more high speed train lines in Spain at competitive prices, the fleet -A330- (plus Ryanair, the role of Vueling, the hyperinflation of airports in Spain...) it could be a good moment to come again to the matter.

Regards,


A300.10.19.20.21.30.40,AN26,ATR42,AVR146,B717.27.37.47.57.77,B1900,C130,C212,CH47,CRJ200.700,DC9,DHC4,ERJ135.190,F27
91 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently onlineaircatalonia From Spain, joined Nov 2007, 574 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (1 year 10 months 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 12414 times:

The connections to Latin America are profitable and that's about it. I see IB as a small company with a few long range aircrafts based in Madrid (similar to what Virgin Atlantic is in the UK) and strong ties with one or more european LCC's (ie. Vueling).

User currently offlinejumpjet From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2005, 293 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (1 year 10 months 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 12335 times:

I've never been able to understand just why, when a company isn't doing particularly well, the workforce decides to down tools and go on strike. It just seems to make matters worse.

I've only one experience of Iberia, and that was a trip with a short transit stop in Madrid. Guess what? In over 30 years of flying, it was the only time my bag disappeared, never to be seen again!


User currently offlineskipness1E From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2007, 3317 posts, RR: 1
Reply 3, posted (1 year 10 months 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 12320 times:

Quoting spantax (Thread starter):
employees due to the acquisition of IB by the British to form IAG,

Iberia was not acquired by the British at all, indeed the Spanish got a very good deal when they took on a bust pension fund with an airline attached. IAG is the holding company that owns both BA and IB, and IAG is not based at Heathrow is it?


User currently offlinejfk777 From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 8499 posts, RR: 6
Reply 4, posted (1 year 10 months 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 12178 times:
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Iberia should decalred bankrupt and rebuilt like so many airlines world wide. From Avianca to American Airlines.

User currently offlinePDPsol From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 1120 posts, RR: 5
Reply 5, posted (1 year 10 months 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 11975 times:

Quoting skipness1E (Reply 3):
Iberia was not acquired by the British at all, indeed the Spanish got a very good deal when they took on a bust pension fund with an airline attached. IAG is the holding company that owns both BA and IB, and IAG is not based at Heathrow is it?

Semantics here... Yes, of course, the transaction was a stock-for-stock merger and, of course, the IB shareholders were converted into large, material and important shareholders of IAG, for sure. However, in the past 3 years, much, much, much has changed, including the composition of IAG's shareholders.

The single largest shareholder of IAG remains Bankia [the old Caja de Madrid, an institution that seen more drama than a Venezuelan soap opera 'telenovela' over the past 24 months]. Bankia's controlling shareholder, Banco Financiero y de Ahorro, S.A., owns over 12% of IAG. The remaining 'large' IAG shareholders are typical asset management institutions, with 3-5% ownership, including Schroders Investment Management, Black Rock, Templeton, etc. etc. However, over the past 24 month, BFA has, indeed, sold down much of its interest in IAG to raise capital, for obvious reasons. Therefore, it would be difficult to argue the corporate governance of IAG is influenced in any way by "Spanish interests" or, for that matter, "British interests" or any other "national interests". IAG is clearly focused on the only objective it should be focused on: maximizing the wealth of its owners, its shareholders, by executing a viable commercial strategy. Nothing more.

Quoting spantax (Thread starter):
IB is a kind of heritage from Franco (as the king of Spain, by the way), thus, a State controlled entity, with all the build-in corruption that this meant with Franco and that has continued to this very day, and consequently an unsound structure prone to failure and neither well prepared to cope with hard times nor with the new aviation environment in Europe (deregulation, low cost...).

OK, seriously? You do realize, of course, that Franco has been dead for almost 4 decades, do you not? IB was, indeed, controlled by the State ages ago, but it was privatized, remember? IB was private, with private owners, private capital. These owners, including BFA by the way, were certainly more interested in maximizing the value of their investment, than worrying about "heritage from Franco" or any other silly notion. Owners are interested in their money, not politics.

Do labor unions at IB believe they have influence over the carrier's corporate governance? Of course they do. Do they actually have any influence? Not really. Are these labor unions vestiges of an old, defunct, industrial and social 'compact' that has existed throughout western Europe and is now being dismantled in favor of a new, more flexible economic, political and social model? Surely. However, this 'old model' has less to do with Franco and more to do with measures that all societies in western Europe bought into decades ago...

If IB can truly restructure its operations and focus its future on a sustainable, commercially viable strategy, then wonderful. Hopefully, they will be able to. I would imagine this strategy would be centered around long-haul to key markets, GRU, GIG, EZE, MEX, BOG, LIM, SCL, etc., along with European connectivity via VY and/or Express. We shall see.


User currently offlinesumma767 From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2004, 2569 posts, RR: 6
Reply 6, posted (1 year 10 months 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 11829 times:

Iberia has a future, but it needs to adjust to a more competitive climate, and realise that the economic boom that Spain enjoyed for more than a decade is well and truly over. Hence Iberia has not made a profit from flying since 2007. It has made money on third party maintenance, handling, sales of shares in Amadeus and profit from Vueling, but not from its core business. 2009 (pre-merger) was particularly bad.

What is being done in regards to a better product in the new A330s, and retroffitting of A346s is part of the answer in making Iberia viable in the medium and long term. Customer service has got to improve too, and of course it needs to be more productive -and that is where the restructuring comes in and the strikes are the result of that.

Unfortunately many Iberia employees, and certainly its pilot union that don't seem to have a grasp of reality, don't seem to realise the state of the Spanish economy and the effect that has on demand, nor about the increasing competition, particularly in the Latin American market that has been Iberia's forte. As far as the are concerned, the British are ransacking Iberia. Xenophobia is clearly a basic instinct.

Just have a look at this picture from today:
https://twitter.com/SaveIberia/status/303505247245041664

British people should be aware of these attitudes next time they think of a trip to Spain.





[Edited 2013-02-18 07:02:51]

User currently offlinemiaintl From United States of America, joined Jun 2010, 1054 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (1 year 10 months 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 11769 times:

Whatever the situation is IB is certainly in a better situation than AZ. At least IB has a strong connecting hub at MAD, something which AZ does not have.

User currently offlineSCQ83 From United States of America, joined Oct 2012, 1152 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (1 year 10 months 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 11717 times:

I think there is.

First, Iberia is getting rid of competition. Spanair got bankrupt last year, Orbest this week and I wouldn't be surprised that Air Europa sooner than later goes under as well (the way it is managed). Iberia is the only one backed by a major (partly) foreign group (IAG) and it is by far the best known brand, best network and corporate contracts in Spain and LATAM among those carriers. So very soon Iberia might be well in an almost monopolistic position in the Spain-LATAM markets (of course with the Latin American and European competition, but none at home).

Secondly, Spain is getting new working regulations by the day that makes much easier (and cheaper) to fire employees that have been in the company for decades. That is the issue with Iberia... most of those pilots, TCPs and land employees feel like they are "government" workers (like in most of Western Europe, btw) so the fate of the company is not their matter. Another issue is the corporate management of IB in Spain (otherwise it is also very easy to blame only the bottom-of-the-rank employees)... lots of unnecessary "managers" to get as much as money as they can before the company collapses... hopefully IAG will also control that.


User currently offlinebennett123 From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2004, 7809 posts, RR: 3
Reply 9, posted (1 year 10 months 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 11606 times:

http://www.airfleets.net/flottecie/Iberia.htm

Looking just at their fleet, I notice the following;

1. That a lot of A300, B747 Classics and DC10 sat around for years after they were retired. These may have had some value on retirement. But by the time they were disposed of, (iirc, the A300 are still sitting in Valencia) they were just junk.

IMO, that it not good use of planes that cost many £M.

2. That their long haul fleet are almost solely A340. Nothing instantly wrong there, but 1 A330, plus 1 A330 on order suggests that they have no plans for replacement any time soon.

As the number of newer twin jet A330, B767, B777 and increasingly A350 and B787 come on line, this vital sector looks increasingly dated.


User currently offlineacelanzarote From Spain, joined Nov 2005, 857 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (1 year 10 months 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 11609 times:

Depending how this ends and I suspect we all know who the winner will be, I can see the Spanish media blaming the problems and job loses on BA/the UK in general.....So I hope IAG (and even BA in some ways) are battened down for a rough ride.


from the Island with sun and great photo's.. Why not visit Lanzarote
User currently offlinePDPsol From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 1120 posts, RR: 5
Reply 11, posted (1 year 10 months 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 11504 times:

Quoting acelanzarote (Reply 10):
I can see the Spanish media blaming the problems and job loses on BA/the UK in general
Quoting summa767 (Reply 6):
the British are ransacking Iberia. Xenophobia is clearly a basic instinct.
Quoting summa767 (Reply 6):
British people should be aware of these attitudes next time they think of a trip to Spain.

All this silly talk of xenophobia, Franco's legacy, blaming the British, etc. is ridiculous. The issue at hand is very simple, and has been seen in countless labor disputes throughout western Europe over the past decades: a once-protected industry is now changing quickly, with new competitors, new investors and owners, requiring massive restructuring and thousands of laid-off employees. No real difference between this and the British coal and steel industry in the 1980's, or the French auto industry today, or any other European industry that has experienced tremendous change.

IB does have a future and its corporate governance [see my post #5 explaining this] is focused on developing and implementing a sustainable commercial strategy. When all parties understand that this is the sole area of discussion, perhaps everyone will cool off and deal with reality. Until then, the drama continues.

The reality is that thousands of IB employees will lose their jobs and the remaining employees will work for lower compensation packages, with greater job uncertainty, more hours, and less benefits. The unemployed employees will face very difficult times, indeed, and they are worried and even desperate. However, all this talk of the 'bucaneering British' is just that, just talk.


User currently offlineshuttle9juliet From UK - Scotland, joined Jul 2010, 192 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (1 year 10 months 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 11463 times:

Quoting skipness1E (Reply 3):

They do have offices on Newall road which is on the perimeter road, this is where you will find Mr Walsh.


User currently offlinesumma767 From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2004, 2569 posts, RR: 6
Reply 13, posted (1 year 10 months 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 11363 times:

Quoting acelanzarote (Reply 10):
Depending how this ends and I suspect we all know who the winner will be, I can see the Spanish media blaming the problems and job loses on BA/the UK in general

Yes, much of the Spanish media has no rigour.
If the strikes get in the way of restructuring, and Iberia is ultimately unable to be viable, then losers will be both IAG, Spain and every employee as simply the cash will run out at some point.
If the restructuring goes well, the winner will be IAG shareholders who would eventually get a return for their investment, the majority of employees that remain in their jobs and future employees once the company is able to grow sustainably.

Quoting acelanzarote (Reply 10):
So I hope IAG (and even BA in some ways) are battened down for a rough ride.

IAG has already seen its value fall due to the bad performance at Iberia.
BA has already restructured and is already making money and is on its way to be even more profitable. It would be better for IAG if all its airlines made money, but BA won't be affected if IB does not sort itself out.


User currently offliner2rho From Germany, joined Feb 2007, 2772 posts, RR: 1
Reply 14, posted (1 year 10 months 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 11343 times:

There can be plenty of future for IB, and potentially very bright, but they need to get their act together. That goes not only to the striking employees (who have good reason to strike, but not on such a scale) as well as management who is equally to blame for their lack of action and strategic planning among others.

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 4):
Iberia should decalred bankrupt and rebuilt like so many airlines world wide. From Avianca to American Airlines.

However, there is no Chapter 11 equivalent in Europe (which is probably just what IB would need to restructure). Other major restructurings (Sabena, Swiss) have happened by letting the old airline die and refounding it through a new company that took over the remains (while taxpayers took over the debt...). IB does not need to go that far if they get their act together soon enough, but it would be the ultimate step (and the company to restart IB, IB Express, already exists).

Quoting jumpjet (Reply 2):
In over 30 years of flying, it was the only time my bag disappeared,

You haven't been to CDG then  
Quoting aircatalonia (Reply 1):
The connections to Latin America are profitable and that's about it. I see IB as a small company with a few long range aircrafts based in Madrid (similar to what Virgin Atlantic is in the UK) and strong ties with one or more european LCC's (ie. Vueling).

IB would not be sustainable as such a small company IMO. It needs to achieve and maintain a KL-like size over the long-term.

Quoting SCQ83 (Reply 8):
So very soon Iberia might be well in an almost monopolistic position in the Spain-LATAM markets (of course with the Latin American and European competition, but none at home).

The problem is not home competition - indeed JK is dead and UX is not a big threat. The problem lies in LatAm competition - and in particular its future growth potential.

Quoting bennett123 (Reply 9):
2. That their long haul fleet are almost solely A340. Nothing instantly wrong there, but 1 A330, plus 1 A330 on order suggests that they have no plans for replacement any time soon.

They have 8 A330 orders plus 8 options, which will hopefully be exercised, and provide a one-to-one replacement for their A343's. Their A346's are quite recent and their payload-range capacity is well used.
But I agree that IB lacks a strategic long-term fleet plan, which is one of the reasons why some see no future in the airline. The A333's are just a stopgap measure to improve the status quo with the A343's but with no fleet or route growth whatsoever. There are no new-gen aircraft on order, and they will be facing a growing number of LAN-TAM and AV-TA 787's. IAG needs to decide a fleet strategy for IB fast - and place orders accordingly.

Quoting SCQ83 (Reply 8):
lots of unnecessary "managers" to get as much as money as they can before the company collapses... hopefully IAG will also control that.

I agree - a purge has to happen at management level as well, it would be unfair to put all the burden on employees.


User currently offlineBA0197 From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2011, 333 posts, RR: 1
Reply 15, posted (1 year 10 months 5 days ago) and read 10949 times:

I think not. In all honesty.

Of course there is future for Spanish air travel, but I do envision that IB will not be around much longer due to the ignorance and stupidity of the staff blaming BA for their trouble (I just can't get my mind around how they came to that conclusion- have they not seen their economy of the Spanish unemployment figures?)

There needs to be a state-of-mind change within IB for it to improve. I feel its stubbornness to change will result in its ultimate termination.


User currently offlineUALWN From Andorra, joined Jun 2009, 2973 posts, RR: 2
Reply 16, posted (1 year 10 months 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 10789 times:

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 4):
Iberia should decalred bankrupt and rebuilt like so many airlines world wide. From Avianca to American Airlines.

There's nothing equivalent to Chapter 11 in Spain: it would go straight to chapter 7 liquidation.

Quoting summa767 (Reply 6):
British people should be aware of these attitudes next time they think of a trip to Spain.

Oh please. Attitudes by how many IB employees out of how many Spanish citizens?

Quoting SCQ83 (Reply 8):
I wouldn't be surprised that Air Europa sooner than later goes under as well

I would be very surprised. Air Europa is part of the Globalia conglomerate (Viajes Halcón, etc.), which has been profitable every year since at least 2007.

Quoting bennett123 (Reply 9):
1 A330, plus 1 A330 on order suggests that they have no plans for replacement any time soon.

IB has 8 A330s on order + 8 options.

Quoting summa767 (Reply 13):
Yes, much of the Spanish media has no rigour.

Unlike the British media (Sun, Daily Mail, etc.)? There's actually no newspaper in Spain that can be compared to any of those rags.

Quoting BA0197 (Reply 15):
I just can't get my mind around how they came to that conclusion- have they not seen their economy of the Spanish unemployment figures?

The state of the Spanish economy and the unemployment do not seem to affect UX or VY, which keep posting profits...



AT7/111/146/Avro/CRJ/CR9/EMB/ERJ/E75/F50/100/L15/DC9/D10/M8X/717/727/737/747/757/767/777/AB6/310/319/320/321/330/340/380
User currently offlineLHRFlyer From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2010, 822 posts, RR: 1
Reply 17, posted (1 year 10 months 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 10605 times:

Yes, there is.

A lot of the focus on Iberia has been on redundancies and cost-cutting, but there's also a huge amount of expertise in IAG to turn Iberia around.

Iberia is almost where BA was in 2002 when it launched "Future Size and Shape". A lot of the things Iberia is doing are similar to Future Size and Shape. IAG has a lot more planned for Iberia than cutting jobs and there is a lot else going on behind the scenes in terms of improving revenue management, increasing direct distribution etc.


User currently offlinePu From Sweden, joined Dec 2011, 769 posts, RR: 13
Reply 18, posted (1 year 10 months 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 10534 times:

Quoting spantax (Thread starter):
Well, as a normal passenger, not a professional, I don't believe this version. I have always seen (and suffered) the terrible incompetence of IB, their disregard for the client, this fundamental Spanish trait of a lot of hot air for nothing. For me IB is a kind of heritage from Franco (as the king of Spain, by the way), thus, a State controlled entity, with all the build-in corruption that this meant with Franco and that has continued to this very day,

You tread heavily but you speak the truth.

There is a lot of Spanish pride in themselves/Spain/their job that prevents them from realising their desperate and unimpressive situation. By way of contrast, the British are self-critical and argue for their shortcomings. - to a fault.

Quoting PDPsol (Reply 5):
OK, seriously?

Yes, of course seriously.

Despite the pan-European cheerleeding we sometimes see, there is a big difference in cultures, service and the way each country handles adversity. Spain and IB are acting like they have permanently arrived at respectability when in fact they are teetering on dismissal.




Pu


User currently offlineAA94 From United States of America, joined Aug 2011, 605 posts, RR: 2
Reply 19, posted (1 year 10 months 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 10267 times:

Quoting UALWN (Reply 16):
The state of the Spanish economy and the unemployment do not seem to affect UX or VY, which keep posting profits...

I think he was saying it more in the sense that IB employees shouldn't complain about their job, but rather they should feel lucky that they even have a job considering the Spanish unemployment situation.



Choose a challenge over competence / Eleanor Roosevelt
User currently offlinelightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 13529 posts, RR: 100
Reply 20, posted (1 year 10 months 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 9465 times:
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IB needs to be reformed with more connections to the East from that wonderful South American feed.

Quoting aircatalonia (Reply 1):
I see IB as a small company with a few long range aircrafts based in Madrid (similar to what Virgin Atlantic is in the UK)

VS works due to the limited slots at LHR. MAD will not have such an issue. IB also has to deal with hub bypass as longer range aircraft come out.

Quoting miaintl (Reply 7):
Whatever the situation is IB is certainly in a better situation than AZ.

   That's finding a pony in the pile!  
Quoting LHRFlyer (Reply 17):
IAG has a lot more planned for Iberia than cutting jobs and there is a lot else going on behind the scenes in terms of improving revenue management, increasing direct distribution etc.

That should be realized as if the Spanish want to throw of IAG, that just means the last lifeline is cut.


Lightsaber



Societies that achieve a critical mass of ideas achieve self sustaining growth; others stagnate.
User currently offlineautothrust From Switzerland, joined Jun 2006, 1609 posts, RR: 9
Reply 21, posted (1 year 10 months 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 9463 times:

Quoting spantax (Thread starter):
I have always seen (and suffered) the terrible incompetence of IB, their disregard for the client, this fundamental Spanish trait of a lot of hot air for nothing. For me IB is a kind of heritage from Franco

I strongly disagree. I can tell you in the Franco times and later the ppl were much more very friendly, professional and always with the wish to serve the customers then today.

There has been a change where rather younger generations don't have such attitudes and respect for paying clients.

Quoting Pu (Reply 18):
There is a lot of Spanish pride in themselves/Spain/their job that prevents them from realising their desperate and unimpressive situation. By way of contrast, the British are self-critical and argue for

This is a gross overgeneralization, there are also ppl in Spain very self-critical, humble, helpful. It's not as black and white as you want to point it out.

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 4):
Iberia should decalred bankrupt

That would be a real shame. One of the oldest airlines in the World.



“Faliure is not an option.”
User currently offlinerobbb From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 22, posted (1 year 10 months 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 7421 times:

Quoting jumpjet (Reply 2):
I've never been able to understand just why, when a company isn't doing particularly well, the workforce decides to down tools and go on strike.

It happens when employees feel cornered and threatened by their management and have no other choice but to fight back by the only method they have. No-one outside any company and it's staff involved in a dispute truly knows what is going on within. Taking strike action is a HUGE step for most ordinary people and one taken by people who consider their situation to be desperate, so personally I always support employees who find themselves in this situation. Even if on the face of it I don't agree with the reasons for a strike I can never be sure of the background as presented by the employer and media.

As for Iberia specifically, yes things need to change, but I would be doubtful of to what extent. In the case of Mr Walsh, I'm afraid I don't believe a word he says. He's a ruthless little man driven purely by corporate greed, I don't believe his "fight for survival" existed at BA, nor do I believe it exists at IB.

The part I don't understand is the anti-British sentiment, after all, as has been mentioned neither BA nor the British bought IB, and I can't see any specific impact that BA and IB have had on each other besides a little rearranging of schedules on LON, MAD and BCN routes. I think this may actually be aimed at Walsh himself, who ironically isn't British.

On final thing:

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 4):
Iberia should decalred bankrupt and rebuilt like so many airlines world wide. From Avianca to American Airlines.

European law doesn't provide for bankruptcy, reorganisation, re-emergence as it does in the Americas. The airline would either have to be bought or closed down and replaced with another.

[Edited 2013-02-19 01:14:54]

User currently offlinejumpjet From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2005, 293 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (1 year 10 months 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 7124 times:

Quoting robbb (Reply 22):

It happens when employees feel cornered and threatened by their management and have no other choice but to fight back by the only method they have. No-one outside any company and it's staff involved in a dispute truly knows what is going on within. Taking strike action is a HUGE step for most ordinary people and one taken by people who consider their situation to be desperate, so personally I always support employees who find themselves in this situation. Even if on the face of it I don't agree with the reasons for a strike I can never be sure of the background as presented by the employer and media.

Whilst I certainly understand your comments robbb, I'm not sure I can agree with them. If things were really that bad and the workforce felt cornered, I just can't see how striking improves the situation. I'd imagine that many large, perhaps antiquated, organisations have to slim down and adopt modern technology and working practices if they're to maintain profitability and compete in their market place. It's fatal for companies to stand still and I suspect this has been the problem with Iberia.. This modernisation naturally means slimming down the workforce and whilst many organisations try to address this through natural wastage (dreadful phrase - sorry) and without having compulsory redundancies, in many cases this simply can't be avoided.

It's very easy for me to spout on here as I've never been in this situation so forgive me, but I think I'd probably be trying to work harder and longer to make sure that my name wasn't on the list for the chop.

I stand by my earlier comment in that I wholly fail to see what use striking can do other than to show how upset, and how totally intransigent, the workforce at Iberia are.


User currently offlineshuttle9juliet From UK - Scotland, joined Jul 2010, 192 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (1 year 10 months 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 6879 times:

Quoting jumpjet (Reply 23):

I think what Robb says does have value, as WW has earned the nickname "slasher" for a reason.
I do not ( my opinion ) think BA were in the position he said they were when he took over 2005,
He is a little corporate raider, and I really think the staff at IB ( with or without) the state of the Spanish economy will go down with the sinking ship rather than adhere to his job cuts, changing work ethics ect.

It is sad, but possibly true.


25 spantax : Thank you to all for your comments so far. I see clearly that the picture is not black-white, but open to a lot of shades and nuances. Yesterday there
26 UALWN : I don't follow your logic: the increased number of passengers in the region should leave more room for IB and others, not less.
27 spantax : Sorry, maybe it was my fault. I mean, more passengers in LA (many of them domestic or intra-LA -don't forget Mercosur and other attempts to integrati
28 PDPsol : No clue what you are referring to here, of course each country in Europe is different, with a unique heritage, etc., but I see no difference in betwe
29 Post contains images BestWestern : From Twitter today...
30 acelanzarote : And if say they did, do they really think it would make any difference to the outcome for Iberia.... Changes are required to avoid following Spanair d
31 PDPsol : Well, as mentioned, silly all around. Unions and labor always attempt to create a narrative supporting their claims, which are always material in nat
32 Post contains links clydenairways : This is clearly Union tactics that have been used all over the world before so are hardly unique to The Iberia unions or Spain. An example for you. h
33 summa767 : Unfortunately the anti-British sentiment is more widespread than you may think. I have heard it on newspapers, TV interviews, radio programmes, where
34 BA0197 : Because they provide what the customer expects (a low-cost reliable service). Simple answer really. I meant it like that as well. We all know that if
35 LHRFlyer : You may not like, or trust, Willie Walsh, and he may be ruthless but to say that he is driven by corporate greed is wrong. The ruthlessness is driven
36 PDPsol : Frankly, the situation has very little, or nothing to do with this: And a lot more to do with real commercial issues and risks: The issue has always b
37 UALWN : The fact that the IB union representatives blame the British for IB's troubles on TV, radio or wherever does not mean that the anti-British sentiment
38 summa767 : How you misconstruct arguments. It's not that Spain as a country is xenophobic, but that the unions have been using the argument that British "pirate
39 Post contains images IBERIA747 : For the XXXth time... Iberia HAS NOT been bought by British Airways. [Edited 2013-02-19 15:01:16]
40 BA0197 : I do know that, I was rather saying that by implying that that is the view some IB staff take: that IB has been taken over by BA. That is why I used
41 shuttle9juliet : Just ask Bertie Ahern about Mr Walsh being a corporate raider.
42 autothrust : Couldn't agree more. The people are just fearing loosing their jobs. And BA is a good black sheep. Indeed, the crisis has hit Spain very hard and now
43 BestWestern : Ah Yes, that wonderful example of a quality politician. Mr Walsh proposed a management buy-out which was refused by the Irish government. It hasn't c
44 Asturias : Looking at his history at Aer Lingus, one might be inclined to agree that he's pretty much driven only by corporate greed. A parasite. -a
45 robbb : Fight for survival was not poorly chosen words it was either a statement of fact or not, but we'll have to agree to disagree on this whole subject. T
46 LHRFlyer : So the £1billion fall in revenue never happened? You're accusing BA's auditors of colluding with BA in engaging in false accounting? You say you wil
47 shuttle9juliet : Are you sure you are not Willie Walsh in disguise? Ha ha it's a joke!!! LHRFlyer, people are only giving you their opinions, it's nothing personal ag
48 Asturias : You question this idea as if it were absurd? Arthur Andersen LLP comes to mind. Auditors collude with their clients. It's well within the realm of re
49 madhatter : Asturias this is quite possibly one of the most ridiculous comments made so far on this post and there have been a few. This practice is illegal and
50 UALWN : Yeah, hence it has never ever happened in history. For sure. Truly. And the global financial crisis didn't happen either... And it had nothing to do
51 Post contains images AR385 : Cosmetically. It just quietly changed to Accenture. And yes, I was an Enron employee and believe me, they were so in bed together it was just funny.
52 LHRFlyer : I'm not saying collusion between a company and its auditors cannot happen but it's a serious accusation to accuse BA and its auditors of false account
53 AR385 : "False"? No. Never. Beautified? Maybe.
54 Post contains links spantax : Update: Yesterday there was a meeting management-workers. It lasted only 15 minutes. No results. Today the Spanish Minister for Transport has found a
55 summa767 : Just had a quick read, and did not take me long to find that's this is a load of bull. The lies about IB being profitable before the merger are repea
56 UALWN : This is a gross exaggeration. You may be mistaking ATC strikes for IB strikes. Well, let's repeat again the facts: IB was profitable every year from
57 summa767 : As it has now become clear, that period coincided with Spain's boom. It is well and truly over. Wake up.
58 LHRFlyer : And how does that help Iberia in its current financial situation?
59 UALWN : Somebody mentioned "The lies about IB being profitable before the merger." Well, I posted the facts. Now you can draw whatever conclusions you want f
60 Post contains links jumpjets : As a boring accountant I have just spent a happy half hour looking at the annual reports of BA and IB from 2004-2010 [all on the IAG website http://w
61 summa767 : The facts are clear. IB is losing money. Why? because the boom that it was riding it's over. IB made the worst losses in its history in 2009, before
62 phxa340 : Wow just wow. First off for the many of you that are implying WW presented BAs finances in a fabricated fashion - you are so far detached from reality
63 UALWN : You forget to mention that IB made a profit in 2010, before the merger. Hence, the story is NOT SO SIMPLE. (See? I also know where the caps lock key
64 Post contains links summa767 : Oh yes it is. This has been discussed before but you have simply failed to acknowledge the real facts: IB only made a net profit in 2010 because of s
65 lightsaber : I hope that is just talk. The boom is over. I know the unions are not happy, but let us see other ways to reduce the costs instead of denial about th
66 UALWN : Where do you get that from?? The operational loss was €3m on recurrent operation plus €23m in non-recurrent operations for a total of €26m. I d
67 SCQ83 : I don't think IB should expand to the East long-haul, and it is the less of its problems. There are no major links between Spain and any particular f
68 UALWN : Oh, and you keep posting this, while IB made a (modest) €5m operating profit in 2008. Why do you need to twist the numbers every time there's a dis
69 summa767 : I told you exactly where the figures are: Page 118!!! How many times do I have to repeat that?! Did you even read my short sentence? €72m loss on f
70 UALWN : Not in 2010. Really? Then why doesn't LH shut down and let everybody fly LX? Heck, why doesn't IAG shut down IB then? Oh wait... Well, I guess I don'
71 summa767 : So why did it not make an operational profit in 2009 and 2010?
72 UALWN : Probably for the same reason BA didn't make an operational profit either?
73 Post contains links summa767 : in 2009 The crisis, right? and yet BA's results for 2010 (April to December, when BA was still single) show an operating profit of £342m. http://med
74 UALWN : I don't think I said anything like that! I just pointed out the results of IB before the merger (yep, those that you called 'lies"), and then let any
75 summa767 : Lies indeed. In the blog mentioned it specifically said that IB was profitable right until the merger with BA. Well, that has been well proven to be
76 UALWN : Well, IB was profitable in 14 out of the 15 years previous to the merger with BA. I would say this is close enough to "profitable right until the mer
77 summa767 : One such fact is that Spain was riding an economic bubble that burst, and burst badly. Another fact is that IB had its worse losses in its history in
78 UALWN : And yet UX is still making money... And VY. You have said that before. A number of times, actually. And I have also said that that was one year out o
79 Asturias : Not really, just pointing out that it is well within the realm of reality and reason. WW was trying financial stunts with Aer Lingus but got his fing
80 summa767 : And IB can too if it restructures! Cost base is key. BTW, you failed to notice that Spanair went bust! Oh, and Orbest just this week. That Easyjet an
81 UALWN : Maybe. You can see things in a different way: before 2010 both UX and IB were profitable. Since then, one of them was integrated into IAG and started
82 Post contains links summa767 : What a load of rubbish! UX was not profitable in 2011. More "facts" that you just make up: http://www.02b.com/es/notices/2012/0...s_por_culpa_de_air_
83 UALWN : Rubbish? What rubbish? Globalia made a €17m profit in 2010 and lost a tiny €1m in 2011. So, overall, it was profitable in 2010+2011. UX laid off
84 summa767 : Rubbish indeed. Air Europa made a loss of €13m You can keep your head buried in the sand, but Air Europa made a loss. Vueling have fared better, as
85 parapente : Although it is totally correct that BA did not "buy" Iberia it was de facto that way.BA should have not "blnked" and felt the need to keep up with "ot
86 N : Not sure I want to get involved in the bun fight the two of you are having but anyway...... Although the number seems small, that is almost 5% of thei
87 Post contains links SCQ83 : Issues with those airlines is management and lack of market understanding. IB is still managed as a public monopoly and UX as a "family company"... A
88 BA0197 : I agree with this very strongly. Looking with hindesight, IB got a hell of a deal when the merger was finalized. I would hazrd a guess that now, if t
89 Post contains images r2rho : Thank you. Probably the best BA/IB pre-merger profit-loss analysis posted to date. I would not say it was "riding" the boom in the sense that IB's fl
90 UALWN : Again, you choose whatever numbers suit you best. The group Globalia, which consolidates its profits and losses, was profitable in 2010+2011. So mayb
91 BA0197 : That's becasue all the other airlines in Spain are not legacy carriers with its assosiated requirements and policies. Air Europa is too small to be a
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