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Is There A Future For Iberia?  
User currently offlinespantax From Belgium, joined Nov 2004, 323 posts, RR: 1
Posted (1 year 6 months 4 weeks 23 hours ago) and read 12456 times:

Well, the strike is on and running. Now I would like to ask your opinions about the "official" cause of the strike, the lay off of 3,800 employees due to the acquisition of IB by the British to form IAG, that is: the union of IB with British Airways. In Spain, the most recurrent explanation goes like this, in scam mode: "IB was profitable, healthy, with a good position in Spain and was leader to/from Latin America. The British buccaneers arrived and helped by a gang of unscrupulous managers bought IB by a derisory price just to dismantle it, transfer the most profitable routes to BA, fill the deficit of the pension fund of BA employees and use for free a brand new terminal (T-4) at Madrid, good location for future expansion to America and Africa".

Well, as a normal passenger, not a professional, I don't believe this version. I have always seen (and suffered) the terrible incompetence of IB, their disregard for the client, this fundamental Spanish trait of a lot of hot air for nothing. For me IB is a kind of heritage from Franco (as the king of Spain, by the way), thus, a State controlled entity, with all the build-in corruption that this meant with Franco and that has continued to this very day, and consequently an unsound structure prone to failure and neither well prepared to cope with hard times nor with the new aviation environment in Europe (deregulation, low cost...). But, on the other side, I had the feeling, when it happened, that the sale/merger to/with BA was too complicate, unnecessary, nonsense. As experience has proved, in business bigger is not always better.

I know this has been discussed, but now, with the strike going on, the reduction of flights, Iberia Express, the entry into service of more high speed train lines in Spain at competitive prices, the fleet -A330- (plus Ryanair, the role of Vueling, the hyperinflation of airports in Spain...) it could be a good moment to come again to the matter.

Regards,


A300.10.19.20.21.30.40,AN26,ATR42,AVR146,B717.27.37.47.57.77,B1900,C130,C212,CH47,CRJ200.700,DC9,DHC4,ERJ135.190,F27
91 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineaircatalonia From Spain, joined Nov 2007, 557 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (1 year 6 months 4 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 12231 times:

The connections to Latin America are profitable and that's about it. I see IB as a small company with a few long range aircrafts based in Madrid (similar to what Virgin Atlantic is in the UK) and strong ties with one or more european LCC's (ie. Vueling).

User currently offlinejumpjet From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2005, 280 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (1 year 6 months 4 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 12152 times:

I've never been able to understand just why, when a company isn't doing particularly well, the workforce decides to down tools and go on strike. It just seems to make matters worse.

I've only one experience of Iberia, and that was a trip with a short transit stop in Madrid. Guess what? In over 30 years of flying, it was the only time my bag disappeared, never to be seen again!


User currently offlineskipness1E From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2007, 3250 posts, RR: 1
Reply 3, posted (1 year 6 months 4 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 12137 times:

Quoting spantax (Thread starter):
employees due to the acquisition of IB by the British to form IAG,

Iberia was not acquired by the British at all, indeed the Spanish got a very good deal when they took on a bust pension fund with an airline attached. IAG is the holding company that owns both BA and IB, and IAG is not based at Heathrow is it?


User currently offlinejfk777 From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 8370 posts, RR: 7
Reply 4, posted (1 year 6 months 4 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 11995 times:
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Iberia should decalred bankrupt and rebuilt like so many airlines world wide. From Avianca to American Airlines.

User currently offlinePDPsol From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 1115 posts, RR: 5
Reply 5, posted (1 year 6 months 4 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 11792 times:

Quoting skipness1E (Reply 3):
Iberia was not acquired by the British at all, indeed the Spanish got a very good deal when they took on a bust pension fund with an airline attached. IAG is the holding company that owns both BA and IB, and IAG is not based at Heathrow is it?

Semantics here... Yes, of course, the transaction was a stock-for-stock merger and, of course, the IB shareholders were converted into large, material and important shareholders of IAG, for sure. However, in the past 3 years, much, much, much has changed, including the composition of IAG's shareholders.

The single largest shareholder of IAG remains Bankia [the old Caja de Madrid, an institution that seen more drama than a Venezuelan soap opera 'telenovela' over the past 24 months]. Bankia's controlling shareholder, Banco Financiero y de Ahorro, S.A., owns over 12% of IAG. The remaining 'large' IAG shareholders are typical asset management institutions, with 3-5% ownership, including Schroders Investment Management, Black Rock, Templeton, etc. etc. However, over the past 24 month, BFA has, indeed, sold down much of its interest in IAG to raise capital, for obvious reasons. Therefore, it would be difficult to argue the corporate governance of IAG is influenced in any way by "Spanish interests" or, for that matter, "British interests" or any other "national interests". IAG is clearly focused on the only objective it should be focused on: maximizing the wealth of its owners, its shareholders, by executing a viable commercial strategy. Nothing more.

Quoting spantax (Thread starter):
IB is a kind of heritage from Franco (as the king of Spain, by the way), thus, a State controlled entity, with all the build-in corruption that this meant with Franco and that has continued to this very day, and consequently an unsound structure prone to failure and neither well prepared to cope with hard times nor with the new aviation environment in Europe (deregulation, low cost...).

OK, seriously? You do realize, of course, that Franco has been dead for almost 4 decades, do you not? IB was, indeed, controlled by the State ages ago, but it was privatized, remember? IB was private, with private owners, private capital. These owners, including BFA by the way, were certainly more interested in maximizing the value of their investment, than worrying about "heritage from Franco" or any other silly notion. Owners are interested in their money, not politics.

Do labor unions at IB believe they have influence over the carrier's corporate governance? Of course they do. Do they actually have any influence? Not really. Are these labor unions vestiges of an old, defunct, industrial and social 'compact' that has existed throughout western Europe and is now being dismantled in favor of a new, more flexible economic, political and social model? Surely. However, this 'old model' has less to do with Franco and more to do with measures that all societies in western Europe bought into decades ago...

If IB can truly restructure its operations and focus its future on a sustainable, commercially viable strategy, then wonderful. Hopefully, they will be able to. I would imagine this strategy would be centered around long-haul to key markets, GRU, GIG, EZE, MEX, BOG, LIM, SCL, etc., along with European connectivity via VY and/or Express. We shall see.


User currently offlinesumma767 From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2004, 2561 posts, RR: 6
Reply 6, posted (1 year 6 months 4 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 11646 times:

Iberia has a future, but it needs to adjust to a more competitive climate, and realise that the economic boom that Spain enjoyed for more than a decade is well and truly over. Hence Iberia has not made a profit from flying since 2007. It has made money on third party maintenance, handling, sales of shares in Amadeus and profit from Vueling, but not from its core business. 2009 (pre-merger) was particularly bad.

What is being done in regards to a better product in the new A330s, and retroffitting of A346s is part of the answer in making Iberia viable in the medium and long term. Customer service has got to improve too, and of course it needs to be more productive -and that is where the restructuring comes in and the strikes are the result of that.

Unfortunately many Iberia employees, and certainly its pilot union that don't seem to have a grasp of reality, don't seem to realise the state of the Spanish economy and the effect that has on demand, nor about the increasing competition, particularly in the Latin American market that has been Iberia's forte. As far as the are concerned, the British are ransacking Iberia. Xenophobia is clearly a basic instinct.

Just have a look at this picture from today:
https://twitter.com/SaveIberia/status/303505247245041664

British people should be aware of these attitudes next time they think of a trip to Spain.





[Edited 2013-02-18 07:02:51]

User currently offlinemiaintl From United States of America, joined Jun 2010, 1049 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (1 year 6 months 4 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 11586 times:

Whatever the situation is IB is certainly in a better situation than AZ. At least IB has a strong connecting hub at MAD, something which AZ does not have.

User currently onlineSCQ83 From United States of America, joined Oct 2012, 930 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (1 year 6 months 4 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 11534 times:

I think there is.

First, Iberia is getting rid of competition. Spanair got bankrupt last year, Orbest this week and I wouldn't be surprised that Air Europa sooner than later goes under as well (the way it is managed). Iberia is the only one backed by a major (partly) foreign group (IAG) and it is by far the best known brand, best network and corporate contracts in Spain and LATAM among those carriers. So very soon Iberia might be well in an almost monopolistic position in the Spain-LATAM markets (of course with the Latin American and European competition, but none at home).

Secondly, Spain is getting new working regulations by the day that makes much easier (and cheaper) to fire employees that have been in the company for decades. That is the issue with Iberia... most of those pilots, TCPs and land employees feel like they are "government" workers (like in most of Western Europe, btw) so the fate of the company is not their matter. Another issue is the corporate management of IB in Spain (otherwise it is also very easy to blame only the bottom-of-the-rank employees)... lots of unnecessary "managers" to get as much as money as they can before the company collapses... hopefully IAG will also control that.


User currently offlinebennett123 From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2004, 7601 posts, RR: 3
Reply 9, posted (1 year 6 months 4 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 11423 times:

http://www.airfleets.net/flottecie/Iberia.htm

Looking just at their fleet, I notice the following;

1. That a lot of A300, B747 Classics and DC10 sat around for years after they were retired. These may have had some value on retirement. But by the time they were disposed of, (iirc, the A300 are still sitting in Valencia) they were just junk.

IMO, that it not good use of planes that cost many £M.

2. That their long haul fleet are almost solely A340. Nothing instantly wrong there, but 1 A330, plus 1 A330 on order suggests that they have no plans for replacement any time soon.

As the number of newer twin jet A330, B767, B777 and increasingly A350 and B787 come on line, this vital sector looks increasingly dated.


User currently offlineacelanzarote From Spain, joined Nov 2005, 830 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (1 year 6 months 4 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 11426 times:

Depending how this ends and I suspect we all know who the winner will be, I can see the Spanish media blaming the problems and job loses on BA/the UK in general.....So I hope IAG (and even BA in some ways) are battened down for a rough ride.


from the Island with sun and great photo's.. Why not visit Lanzarote
User currently offlinePDPsol From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 1115 posts, RR: 5
Reply 11, posted (1 year 6 months 4 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 11321 times:

Quoting acelanzarote (Reply 10):
I can see the Spanish media blaming the problems and job loses on BA/the UK in general
Quoting summa767 (Reply 6):
the British are ransacking Iberia. Xenophobia is clearly a basic instinct.
Quoting summa767 (Reply 6):
British people should be aware of these attitudes next time they think of a trip to Spain.

All this silly talk of xenophobia, Franco's legacy, blaming the British, etc. is ridiculous. The issue at hand is very simple, and has been seen in countless labor disputes throughout western Europe over the past decades: a once-protected industry is now changing quickly, with new competitors, new investors and owners, requiring massive restructuring and thousands of laid-off employees. No real difference between this and the British coal and steel industry in the 1980's, or the French auto industry today, or any other European industry that has experienced tremendous change.

IB does have a future and its corporate governance [see my post #5 explaining this] is focused on developing and implementing a sustainable commercial strategy. When all parties understand that this is the sole area of discussion, perhaps everyone will cool off and deal with reality. Until then, the drama continues.

The reality is that thousands of IB employees will lose their jobs and the remaining employees will work for lower compensation packages, with greater job uncertainty, more hours, and less benefits. The unemployed employees will face very difficult times, indeed, and they are worried and even desperate. However, all this talk of the 'bucaneering British' is just that, just talk.


User currently offlineshuttle9juliet From UK - Scotland, joined Jul 2010, 192 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (1 year 6 months 4 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 11280 times:

Quoting skipness1E (Reply 3):

They do have offices on Newall road which is on the perimeter road, this is where you will find Mr Walsh.


User currently offlinesumma767 From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2004, 2561 posts, RR: 6
Reply 13, posted (1 year 6 months 4 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 11180 times:

Quoting acelanzarote (Reply 10):
Depending how this ends and I suspect we all know who the winner will be, I can see the Spanish media blaming the problems and job loses on BA/the UK in general

Yes, much of the Spanish media has no rigour.
If the strikes get in the way of restructuring, and Iberia is ultimately unable to be viable, then losers will be both IAG, Spain and every employee as simply the cash will run out at some point.
If the restructuring goes well, the winner will be IAG shareholders who would eventually get a return for their investment, the majority of employees that remain in their jobs and future employees once the company is able to grow sustainably.

Quoting acelanzarote (Reply 10):
So I hope IAG (and even BA in some ways) are battened down for a rough ride.

IAG has already seen its value fall due to the bad performance at Iberia.
BA has already restructured and is already making money and is on its way to be even more profitable. It would be better for IAG if all its airlines made money, but BA won't be affected if IB does not sort itself out.


User currently offliner2rho From Germany, joined Feb 2007, 2629 posts, RR: 1
Reply 14, posted (1 year 6 months 4 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 11160 times:

There can be plenty of future for IB, and potentially very bright, but they need to get their act together. That goes not only to the striking employees (who have good reason to strike, but not on such a scale) as well as management who is equally to blame for their lack of action and strategic planning among others.

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 4):
Iberia should decalred bankrupt and rebuilt like so many airlines world wide. From Avianca to American Airlines.

However, there is no Chapter 11 equivalent in Europe (which is probably just what IB would need to restructure). Other major restructurings (Sabena, Swiss) have happened by letting the old airline die and refounding it through a new company that took over the remains (while taxpayers took over the debt...). IB does not need to go that far if they get their act together soon enough, but it would be the ultimate step (and the company to restart IB, IB Express, already exists).

Quoting jumpjet (Reply 2):
In over 30 years of flying, it was the only time my bag disappeared,

You haven't been to CDG then  
Quoting aircatalonia (Reply 1):
The connections to Latin America are profitable and that's about it. I see IB as a small company with a few long range aircrafts based in Madrid (similar to what Virgin Atlantic is in the UK) and strong ties with one or more european LCC's (ie. Vueling).

IB would not be sustainable as such a small company IMO. It needs to achieve and maintain a KL-like size over the long-term.

Quoting SCQ83 (Reply 8):
So very soon Iberia might be well in an almost monopolistic position in the Spain-LATAM markets (of course with the Latin American and European competition, but none at home).

The problem is not home competition - indeed JK is dead and UX is not a big threat. The problem lies in LatAm competition - and in particular its future growth potential.

Quoting bennett123 (Reply 9):
2. That their long haul fleet are almost solely A340. Nothing instantly wrong there, but 1 A330, plus 1 A330 on order suggests that they have no plans for replacement any time soon.

They have 8 A330 orders plus 8 options, which will hopefully be exercised, and provide a one-to-one replacement for their A343's. Their A346's are quite recent and their payload-range capacity is well used.
But I agree that IB lacks a strategic long-term fleet plan, which is one of the reasons why some see no future in the airline. The A333's are just a stopgap measure to improve the status quo with the A343's but with no fleet or route growth whatsoever. There are no new-gen aircraft on order, and they will be facing a growing number of LAN-TAM and AV-TA 787's. IAG needs to decide a fleet strategy for IB fast - and place orders accordingly.

Quoting SCQ83 (Reply 8):
lots of unnecessary "managers" to get as much as money as they can before the company collapses... hopefully IAG will also control that.

I agree - a purge has to happen at management level as well, it would be unfair to put all the burden on employees.


User currently offlineBA0197 From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2011, 313 posts, RR: 1
Reply 15, posted (1 year 6 months 4 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 10766 times:

I think not. In all honesty.

Of course there is future for Spanish air travel, but I do envision that IB will not be around much longer due to the ignorance and stupidity of the staff blaming BA for their trouble (I just can't get my mind around how they came to that conclusion- have they not seen their economy of the Spanish unemployment figures?)

There needs to be a state-of-mind change within IB for it to improve. I feel its stubbornness to change will result in its ultimate termination.


User currently offlineUALWN From Andorra, joined Jun 2009, 2790 posts, RR: 2
Reply 16, posted (1 year 6 months 4 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 10606 times:

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 4):
Iberia should decalred bankrupt and rebuilt like so many airlines world wide. From Avianca to American Airlines.

There's nothing equivalent to Chapter 11 in Spain: it would go straight to chapter 7 liquidation.

Quoting summa767 (Reply 6):
British people should be aware of these attitudes next time they think of a trip to Spain.

Oh please. Attitudes by how many IB employees out of how many Spanish citizens?

Quoting SCQ83 (Reply 8):
I wouldn't be surprised that Air Europa sooner than later goes under as well

I would be very surprised. Air Europa is part of the Globalia conglomerate (Viajes Halcón, etc.), which has been profitable every year since at least 2007.

Quoting bennett123 (Reply 9):
1 A330, plus 1 A330 on order suggests that they have no plans for replacement any time soon.

IB has 8 A330s on order + 8 options.

Quoting summa767 (Reply 13):
Yes, much of the Spanish media has no rigour.

Unlike the British media (Sun, Daily Mail, etc.)? There's actually no newspaper in Spain that can be compared to any of those rags.

Quoting BA0197 (Reply 15):
I just can't get my mind around how they came to that conclusion- have they not seen their economy of the Spanish unemployment figures?

The state of the Spanish economy and the unemployment do not seem to affect UX or VY, which keep posting profits...



AT7/111/146/Avro/CRJ/CR9/EMB/ERJ/E75/F50/100/L15/DC9/D10/M8X/717/727/737/747/757/767/777/AB6/310/319/320/321/330/340/380
User currently offlineLHRFlyer From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2010, 815 posts, RR: 1
Reply 17, posted (1 year 6 months 4 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 10422 times:

Yes, there is.

A lot of the focus on Iberia has been on redundancies and cost-cutting, but there's also a huge amount of expertise in IAG to turn Iberia around.

Iberia is almost where BA was in 2002 when it launched "Future Size and Shape". A lot of the things Iberia is doing are similar to Future Size and Shape. IAG has a lot more planned for Iberia than cutting jobs and there is a lot else going on behind the scenes in terms of improving revenue management, increasing direct distribution etc.


User currently offlinePu From Sweden, joined Dec 2011, 697 posts, RR: 13
Reply 18, posted (1 year 6 months 4 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 10351 times:

Quoting spantax (Thread starter):
Well, as a normal passenger, not a professional, I don't believe this version. I have always seen (and suffered) the terrible incompetence of IB, their disregard for the client, this fundamental Spanish trait of a lot of hot air for nothing. For me IB is a kind of heritage from Franco (as the king of Spain, by the way), thus, a State controlled entity, with all the build-in corruption that this meant with Franco and that has continued to this very day,

You tread heavily but you speak the truth.

There is a lot of Spanish pride in themselves/Spain/their job that prevents them from realising their desperate and unimpressive situation. By way of contrast, the British are self-critical and argue for their shortcomings. - to a fault.

Quoting PDPsol (Reply 5):
OK, seriously?

Yes, of course seriously.

Despite the pan-European cheerleeding we sometimes see, there is a big difference in cultures, service and the way each country handles adversity. Spain and IB are acting like they have permanently arrived at respectability when in fact they are teetering on dismissal.




Pu


User currently offlineAA94 From United States of America, joined Aug 2011, 596 posts, RR: 2
Reply 19, posted (1 year 6 months 4 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 10084 times:

Quoting UALWN (Reply 16):
The state of the Spanish economy and the unemployment do not seem to affect UX or VY, which keep posting profits...

I think he was saying it more in the sense that IB employees shouldn't complain about their job, but rather they should feel lucky that they even have a job considering the Spanish unemployment situation.



Choose a challenge over competence / Eleanor Roosevelt
User currently offlinelightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 13094 posts, RR: 100
Reply 20, posted (1 year 6 months 4 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 9282 times:
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IB needs to be reformed with more connections to the East from that wonderful South American feed.

Quoting aircatalonia (Reply 1):
I see IB as a small company with a few long range aircrafts based in Madrid (similar to what Virgin Atlantic is in the UK)

VS works due to the limited slots at LHR. MAD will not have such an issue. IB also has to deal with hub bypass as longer range aircraft come out.

Quoting miaintl (Reply 7):
Whatever the situation is IB is certainly in a better situation than AZ.

   That's finding a pony in the pile!  
Quoting LHRFlyer (Reply 17):
IAG has a lot more planned for Iberia than cutting jobs and there is a lot else going on behind the scenes in terms of improving revenue management, increasing direct distribution etc.

That should be realized as if the Spanish want to throw of IAG, that just means the last lifeline is cut.


Lightsaber



Societies that achieve a critical mass of ideas achieve self sustaining growth; others stagnate.
User currently offlineautothrust From Switzerland, joined Jun 2006, 1595 posts, RR: 9
Reply 21, posted (1 year 6 months 4 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 9280 times:

Quoting spantax (Thread starter):
I have always seen (and suffered) the terrible incompetence of IB, their disregard for the client, this fundamental Spanish trait of a lot of hot air for nothing. For me IB is a kind of heritage from Franco

I strongly disagree. I can tell you in the Franco times and later the ppl were much more very friendly, professional and always with the wish to serve the customers then today.

There has been a change where rather younger generations don't have such attitudes and respect for paying clients.

Quoting Pu (Reply 18):
There is a lot of Spanish pride in themselves/Spain/their job that prevents them from realising their desperate and unimpressive situation. By way of contrast, the British are self-critical and argue for

This is a gross overgeneralization, there are also ppl in Spain very self-critical, humble, helpful. It's not as black and white as you want to point it out.

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 4):
Iberia should decalred bankrupt

That would be a real shame. One of the oldest airlines in the World.



“Faliure is not an option.”
User currently offlinerobbb From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 22, posted (1 year 6 months 4 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 7238 times:

Quoting jumpjet (Reply 2):
I've never been able to understand just why, when a company isn't doing particularly well, the workforce decides to down tools and go on strike.

It happens when employees feel cornered and threatened by their management and have no other choice but to fight back by the only method they have. No-one outside any company and it's staff involved in a dispute truly knows what is going on within. Taking strike action is a HUGE step for most ordinary people and one taken by people who consider their situation to be desperate, so personally I always support employees who find themselves in this situation. Even if on the face of it I don't agree with the reasons for a strike I can never be sure of the background as presented by the employer and media.

As for Iberia specifically, yes things need to change, but I would be doubtful of to what extent. In the case of Mr Walsh, I'm afraid I don't believe a word he says. He's a ruthless little man driven purely by corporate greed, I don't believe his "fight for survival" existed at BA, nor do I believe it exists at IB.

The part I don't understand is the anti-British sentiment, after all, as has been mentioned neither BA nor the British bought IB, and I can't see any specific impact that BA and IB have had on each other besides a little rearranging of schedules on LON, MAD and BCN routes. I think this may actually be aimed at Walsh himself, who ironically isn't British.

On final thing:

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 4):
Iberia should decalred bankrupt and rebuilt like so many airlines world wide. From Avianca to American Airlines.

European law doesn't provide for bankruptcy, reorganisation, re-emergence as it does in the Americas. The airline would either have to be bought or closed down and replaced with another.

[Edited 2013-02-19 01:14:54]

User currently offlinejumpjet From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2005, 280 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (1 year 6 months 4 weeks ago) and read 6941 times:

Quoting robbb (Reply 22):

It happens when employees feel cornered and threatened by their management and have no other choice but to fight back by the only method they have. No-one outside any company and it's staff involved in a dispute truly knows what is going on within. Taking strike action is a HUGE step for most ordinary people and one taken by people who consider their situation to be desperate, so personally I always support employees who find themselves in this situation. Even if on the face of it I don't agree with the reasons for a strike I can never be sure of the background as presented by the employer and media.

Whilst I certainly understand your comments robbb, I'm not sure I can agree with them. If things were really that bad and the workforce felt cornered, I just can't see how striking improves the situation. I'd imagine that many large, perhaps antiquated, organisations have to slim down and adopt modern technology and working practices if they're to maintain profitability and compete in their market place. It's fatal for companies to stand still and I suspect this has been the problem with Iberia.. This modernisation naturally means slimming down the workforce and whilst many organisations try to address this through natural wastage (dreadful phrase - sorry) and without having compulsory redundancies, in many cases this simply can't be avoided.

It's very easy for me to spout on here as I've never been in this situation so forgive me, but I think I'd probably be trying to work harder and longer to make sure that my name wasn't on the list for the chop.

I stand by my earlier comment in that I wholly fail to see what use striking can do other than to show how upset, and how totally intransigent, the workforce at Iberia are.


User currently offlineshuttle9juliet From UK - Scotland, joined Jul 2010, 192 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (1 year 6 months 4 weeks ago) and read 6696 times:

Quoting jumpjet (Reply 23):

I think what Robb says does have value, as WW has earned the nickname "slasher" for a reason.
I do not ( my opinion ) think BA were in the position he said they were when he took over 2005,
He is a little corporate raider, and I really think the staff at IB ( with or without) the state of the Spanish economy will go down with the sinking ship rather than adhere to his job cuts, changing work ethics ect.

It is sad, but possibly true.


User currently offlinespantax From Belgium, joined Nov 2004, 323 posts, RR: 1
Reply 25, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 6384 times:

Thank you to all for your comments so far. I see clearly that the picture is not black-white, but open to a lot of shades and nuances. Yesterday there were clashes at T-4 (Madrid) between Iberia employees and the police. I hope the situation does not degenerates any more.

And coming back to the core: some here see the future for IB in Latin America or as a kind of "branch" of BA dedicated to Latin America. But IIRC in 2012 only 20% of the traffic Latin America-Europa was done by Latin American airlines. With the increased number of passengers in the region and moves as LAN-TAM, this figure should growth markedly in the coming years, thus leaving less room for IB and other European airlines. The solution of improved fleet (A330) could work in the near months, but it is a real long term solution? Not sure about it. Also, the ultra-long haul 777-787-380-350 allow (as somebody said before) to bypass the traditional hubs (Madrid in the case of LA).



A300.10.19.20.21.30.40,AN26,ATR42,AVR146,B717.27.37.47.57.77,B1900,C130,C212,CH47,CRJ200.700,DC9,DHC4,ERJ135.190,F27
User currently offlineUALWN From Andorra, joined Jun 2009, 2790 posts, RR: 2
Reply 26, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 6271 times:

Quoting spantax (Reply 25):
With the increased number of passengers in the region and moves as LAN-TAM, this figure should growth markedly in the coming years, thus leaving less room for IB and other European airlines.

I don't follow your logic: the increased number of passengers in the region should leave more room for IB and others, not less.



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User currently offlinespantax From Belgium, joined Nov 2004, 323 posts, RR: 1
Reply 27, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 6316 times:

Quoting UALWN (Reply 26):
I don't follow your logic: the increased number of passengers in the region should leave more room for IB and others, not less.

Sorry, maybe it was my fault. I mean, more passengers in LA (many of them domestic or intra-LA -don't forget Mercosur and other attempts to integration in the region-) = stronger LA airlines = they can compete with European ones and break this imbalance 80% / 20%.

Regards,



A300.10.19.20.21.30.40,AN26,ATR42,AVR146,B717.27.37.47.57.77,B1900,C130,C212,CH47,CRJ200.700,DC9,DHC4,ERJ135.190,F27
User currently offlinePDPsol From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 1115 posts, RR: 5
Reply 28, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 6253 times:

Quoting Pu (Reply 18):
Despite the pan-European cheerleeding we sometimes see, there is a big difference in cultures, service and the way each country handles adversity. Spain and IB are acting like they have permanently arrived at respectability when in fact they are teetering on dismissal.

No clue what you are referring to here, of course each country in Europe is different, with a unique heritage, etc., but I see no difference in between the labor actions by IB unions and unions in any other affected sector. Strikes tend to be a very nasty affair... They are nasty in western Europe, just as they are nasty here in the United States.

Quoting robbb (Reply 22):
European law doesn't provide for bankruptcy, reorganisation, re-emergence as it does in the Americas. The airline would either have to be bought or closed down and replaced with another.

This comment is the most relevant, as it deals directly with corporate governance and the economic incentives of the various constituencies involved in any reorganization, labor, management, suppliers, customers, the government, etc.

In continental Europe, the concept of bankruptcy and reorganization is treated as a "commercial crime" against creditors, rather than an opportunity by affected parties to re-negotiate their commitments to each other.

Here in the United States, we recognize corporations and corporate investors, whether creditors or equity holders, assume commercial risk. Sometimes, corporations encounter overwhelming risk and are unable to satisfy their obligations, obligations to employees, investors, the government, etc. When this happens, it is known the best way to achieve a sustainable solution is to maximize the value of the corporation's assets and, perhaps most importantly, its intangible BUSINESS FRANCHISE.

When a corporation is liquidated, this intangible value, its business strategy, disappears, only its assets are available to satisfy obligations. The creditors recognize this and, when a corporation enters Chapter 11 reorganization, they band together, form a creditors' committee and, assume corporate governance, along with the Federal court assigned responsibility to the case.

In the case of the IB, its owner, IAG, probably recognizes the equity value in IB is close to zero, given all the employee obligations, etc. It does have an opportunity, however, to renegotiate the terms under which its employees operate and take advantage of real, established commercial opportunities. If Spain had a Chapter 11 law, IAG could theoretically re-negotiate directly with labor and create new, more flexible, lower cost arrangements. Of course, doing so could place its ownership equity at risk, and IAG could need to offer labor equity, for example, in the publicly-traded group parent, IAG.

Unfortunately, this concept does not yet have broad political and social support in Spain or other western European nations. Over time, it will have to...


User currently offlineBestWestern From Hong Kong, joined Sep 2000, 7148 posts, RR: 57
Reply 29, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 6231 times:

Quoting PDPsol (Reply 11):
All this silly talk of xenophobia, Franco's legacy, blaming the British, etc. is ridiculous.

From Twitter today...





The world is really getting smaller these days
User currently offlineacelanzarote From Spain, joined Nov 2005, 830 posts, RR: 0
Reply 30, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 6180 times:

And if say they did, do they really think it would make any difference to the outcome for Iberia....
Changes are required to avoid following Spanair down the plug...
But tunnel vision is a big problem in Spain, I see it every day...



from the Island with sun and great photo's.. Why not visit Lanzarote
User currently offlinePDPsol From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 1115 posts, RR: 5
Reply 31, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 6059 times:

Quoting BestWestern (Reply 29):
From Twitter today...

Well, as mentioned, silly all around. Unions and labor always attempt to create a narrative supporting their claims, which are always material in nature. Labor would like job security, they would like employment benefits, they would like to maintain compensation levels, they would like control over their working hours, all workers would like these things.

However, it is often useful to focus the public's attention on issues having nothing to do with items directly related to labor grievances, including political issues. This is what is happening here, claiming IAG are "piratas ingleses". However, it does not mean IB employees are "xenophobic", nor does it mean IB is a "kind of heritage from Franco" or any other silly political or nationalist argument.

The IB labor dispute is over resources and, to some extent, corporate governance, as well. Note I use the term, "resources", broadly to include benefits, work hours, etc. All the parties know this.

Restructuring will mean job losses and difficulties for many people, never an easy process. It has been seen before, throughout Spain and the rest of western Europe, and will continue for many years in the future in many other sectors. IB is simply one example...


User currently offlineclydenairways From Ireland, joined Jan 2007, 1233 posts, RR: 0
Reply 32, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 5936 times:

Quoting summa767 (Reply 6):
Unfortunately many Iberia employees, and certainly its pilot union that don't seem to have a grasp of reality, don't seem to realise the state of the Spanish economy and the effect that has on demand, nor about the increasing competition, particularly in the Latin American market that has been Iberia's forte. As far as the are concerned, the British are ransacking Iberia. Xenophobia is clearly a basic instinct.

This is clearly Union tactics that have been used all over the world before so are hardly unique to The Iberia unions or Spain.
An example for you.
http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/...ntas-threats-idUSTRE7940H520111005

Quoting summa767 (Reply 6):
British people should be aware of these attitudes next time they think of a trip to Spain.

So because a few union bod's hold up a few banners with populist slogans, you are tarring the whole country with the same brush.
BASSA the BA cabin crew union had a massive Anti Willie Walsh campaign during the BA strike a couple of years back, and some of it was quite personal.
There was a picture of a protester wearing a picture of Willie's face superimposed onto Hitler.... Every Union strike campaign needs a villain to target !
http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage...ties-on-to-the-BA-picket-line.html


User currently offlinesumma767 From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2004, 2561 posts, RR: 6
Reply 33, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 5899 times:

Quoting clydenairways (Reply 32):
So because a few union bod's hold up a few banners with populist slogans, you are tarring the whole country with the same brush.

Unfortunately the anti-British sentiment is more widespread than you may think. I have heard it on newspapers, TV interviews, radio programmes, where a common phrase is "English pirates" by representatives of different unions. I am well aware that not all Spanish people think like that, but that the airport agents (the ones who typed BRITISH GO HOME on several screens at MAD), plus others with placards -NOT for the first time, btw: It has gone on for months- who deal with British passengers do it, it is very unsavoury indeed.


User currently offlineBA0197 From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2011, 313 posts, RR: 1
Reply 34, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 5786 times:

Quoting UALWN (Reply 16):
The state of the Spanish economy and the unemployment do not seem to affect UX or VY, which keep posting profits...

Because they provide what the customer expects (a low-cost reliable service). Simple answer really.

Quoting AA94 (Reply 19):
I think he was saying it more in the sense that IB employees shouldn't complain about their job, but rather they should feel lucky that they even have a job considering the Spanish unemployment situation.

I meant it like that as well.

Quoting summa767 (Reply 33):
I am well aware that not all Spanish people think like that, but that the airport agents (the ones who typed BRITISH GO HOME on several screens at MAD), plus others with placards -NOT for the first time, btw:

We all know that if BA hadn't bought IB, IB would be a thriving carrier and setting the standard for international air travel....


User currently offlineLHRFlyer From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2010, 815 posts, RR: 1
Reply 35, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 5567 times:

Quoting robbb (Reply 22):
In the case of Mr Walsh, I'm afraid I don't believe a word he says. He's a ruthless little man driven purely by corporate greed, I don't believe his "fight for survival" existed at BA, nor do I believe it exists at IB.

You may not like, or trust, Willie Walsh, and he may be ruthless but to say that he is driven by corporate greed is wrong.

The ruthlessness is driven by necessity. "Fight for survival" may not have been the most well chosen words to descrive BA's financial predicament four years ago, but there was no doubt the airline was facing very severe trading conditions.

Between the financial years March 2009 and March 2010, BA's revenues fell by £1billion and it had to issue a convertible bond to raise £350m of cash. Luckily, the company's fuel bill over the same year fell by over £600m. Otherwise events could have taken a very different turn. As recent retail failures in the UK have shown, you have to maintain the confidence of investors and suppliers, otherwise events will spiral out of control quite quickly. Airlines would not survive without credit from their suppliers and sitting on your hands and hoping everything will turn out OK simply isn't an option.

It's also worth remembering that in the first decade of this century, largely with the exception of the investment in Terminal 5, BA put the brakes on virtually all capital expenditure. It now has a lot of things that need to be paid for over the next few years, not least replacements for nearly 50 Boeing 747s.

Nor is Iberia's financial predicament a work of fiction. It is burning through cash and IAG has to plug a hole in the cash drain urgently.


User currently offlinePDPsol From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 1115 posts, RR: 5
Reply 36, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 5426 times:

Frankly, the situation has very little, or nothing to do with this:

Quoting summa767 (Reply 33):
Unfortunately the anti-British sentiment is more widespread than you may think. I have heard it on newspapers, TV interviews, radio programmes, where a common phrase is "English pirates" by representatives of different unions. I am well aware that not all Spanish people think like that, but that the airport agents (the ones who typed BRITISH GO HOME on several screens at MAD), plus others with placards -NOT for the first time, btw: It has gone on for months- who deal with British passengers do it, it is very unsavoury indeed.

And a lot more to do with real commercial issues and risks:

Quoting LHRFlyer (Reply 35):
Nor is Iberia's financial predicament a work of fiction. It is burning through cash and IAG has to plug a hole in the cash drain urgently.

The issue has always been about resources and corporate governance. No one is doubting that IB was subject to political meddling, or denying that unions have tried to use political influence to achieve their objectives, surely these things have happened. However, this is no different than any other industry in restructuring, whether here in the United States, or in western Europe.

Another very valid example:

Quoting clydenairways (Reply 32):
This is clearly Union tactics that have been used all over the world before so are hardly unique to The Iberia unions or Spain.
An example for you.
http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/...11005

No doubt the crisis in Spain is reaching a kind of 'boiling point' and IB is merely a 'canary in a coalmine', illustrating nationwide problems and making very dramatic news copy for everyone to panic over.

However, claiming IB is influenced by 'Franco-era influences', or that Spain is 'xenophobic' or that 'British pirates' are 'taking over' is silly and ridiculous. The reality is much more mundane and commonplace...


User currently offlineUALWN From Andorra, joined Jun 2009, 2790 posts, RR: 2
Reply 37, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 5400 times:

Quoting summa767 (Reply 33):
I have heard it on newspapers, TV interviews, radio programmes, where a common phrase is "English pirates" by representatives of different unions.

The fact that the IB union representatives blame the British for IB's troubles on TV, radio or wherever does not mean that the anti-British sentiment is more widespread.

Quoting BA0197 (Reply 34):
Because they provide what the customer expects (a low-cost reliable service).

UX is not an LCC.



AT7/111/146/Avro/CRJ/CR9/EMB/ERJ/E75/F50/100/L15/DC9/D10/M8X/717/727/737/747/757/767/777/AB6/310/319/320/321/330/340/380
User currently offlinesumma767 From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2004, 2561 posts, RR: 6
Reply 38, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 5362 times:

Quoting PDPsol (Reply 36):
However, claiming IB is influenced by 'Franco-era influences', or that Spain is 'xenophobic'

How you misconstruct arguments. It's not that Spain as a country is xenophobic, but that the unions have been using the argument that British "pirates" are bleeding Iberia. That Iberia was a perfectly profitable airline until the merger with BA (even going on to say that IB's money has gone to plug the BA pension hole, and closing routes for BA to take over.Oh, and that all BA wants is to take over T4 among other non-sense). According to them, BA the root of the problem, and hence why you see the anti-British statements.

As I said before, Iberia has a future, but obviously it needs to be competitive, and that means controlling its costs, and providing a good service (on the hard product at least, that is starting to happen).


User currently offlineIBERIA747 From Spain, joined Aug 2003, 1831 posts, RR: 58
Reply 39, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 5362 times:



Quoting spantax (Thread starter):
bought IB
Quoting spantax (Thread starter):
the lay off of 3,800 employees due to the acquisition of IB by the British
Quoting BA0197 (Reply 34):
We all know that if BA hadn't bought IB

For the XXXth time...

Iberia HAS NOT been bought by British Airways.

Quoting skipness1E (Reply 3):
Iberia was not acquired by the British at all. IAG is the holding company that owns both BA and IB

 checkmark 

[Edited 2013-02-19 15:01:16]


¡¡VIVA ESPAÑA!!
User currently offlineBA0197 From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2011, 313 posts, RR: 1
Reply 40, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 5307 times:

Quoting IBERIA747 (Reply 39):
For the XXXth time...

Iberia HAS NOT been bought by British Airways.

I do know that, I was rather saying that by implying that that is the view some IB staff take: that IB has been taken over by BA. That is why I used the dots afterwards.

I do know what I am talking about and I was rather hoping most would catch my joke there as I have already clearly voiced my views.


User currently offlineshuttle9juliet From UK - Scotland, joined Jul 2010, 192 posts, RR: 0
Reply 41, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 5271 times:

Quoting LHRFlyer (Reply 35):

Just ask Bertie Ahern about Mr Walsh being a corporate raider.


User currently offlineautothrust From Switzerland, joined Jun 2006, 1595 posts, RR: 9
Reply 42, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 5238 times:

Quoting PDPsol (Reply 36):
owever, claiming IB is influenced by 'Franco-era influences', or that Spain is 'xenophobic' or that 'British pirates' are 'taking over' is silly and ridiculous.

Couldn't agree more. The people are just fearing loosing their jobs. And BA is a good black sheep.

Quoting PDPsol (Reply 36):
No doubt the crisis in Spain is reaching a kind of 'boiling point'

Indeed, the crisis has hit Spain very hard and now it's culminating.



“Faliure is not an option.”
User currently offlineBestWestern From Hong Kong, joined Sep 2000, 7148 posts, RR: 57
Reply 43, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 5224 times:

Quoting shuttle9juliet (Reply 41):
Just ask Bertie Ahern about Mr Walsh being a corporate raider.

Ah Yes, that wonderful example of a quality politician.

Mr Walsh proposed a management buy-out which was refused by the Irish government.

Quoting autothrust (Reply 42):
Indeed, the crisis has hit Spain very hard and now it's culminating.

It hasn't culminated yet....



The world is really getting smaller these days
User currently offlineAsturias From Spain, joined Apr 2006, 2153 posts, RR: 16
Reply 44, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 4889 times:

Quoting LHRFlyer (Reply 35):
You may not like, or trust, Willie Walsh, and he may be ruthless but to say that he is driven by corporate greed is wrong.

Looking at his history at Aer Lingus, one might be inclined to agree that he's pretty much driven only by corporate greed. A parasite.

-a



Tonight we fly
User currently offlinerobbb From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 45, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 4810 times:

Quoting LHRFlyer (Reply 35):

Fight for survival was not poorly chosen words it was either a statement of fact or not, but we'll have to agree to disagree on this whole subject. The accounting used to back WW's fight for survival at BA was to my mind followed by a turnround so miraculous as to be way out of proportion to any remedial action taken by BA. As far as I'm concerned it never existed and you will never convince me otherwise.

As for the Iberia fight for survival, I don't know enough about Iberia but I can't help but feel the same person and the same motivation are behind it.

[Edited 2013-02-20 12:25:45]

User currently offlineLHRFlyer From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2010, 815 posts, RR: 1
Reply 46, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 4742 times:

Quoting robbb (Reply 45):
The accounting used to back WW's fight for survival at BA was to my mind followed by a turnround so miraculous as to be way out of proportion to any remedial action taken by BA. As far as I'm concerned it never existed and you will never convince me otherwise.

So the £1billion fall in revenue never happened? You're accusing BA's auditors of colluding with BA in engaging in false accounting?

You say you will never be convinced that BA faced very severe trading conditions even though you have no evidence to support your view?

Was the staging of collapse of Lehman Brothers, the near collapse of two major UK retail banks and the near collapse of the global financial system (which London is the epicentre of) also part of this vast conspiracy against BA cabin crew?

What about the £1,000 business class fares to New York? The 50% on business class redemptions for frequent flyers?

Sorry but the total refusal of cabin crew and their union to engage with reality is exactly what resulted in them throwing themselves off a cliff and finding themselves and their members now permanently sidelined - the only BA workgroup to do so. And BA's profitability may have improved, but as an operating margin it's still far short of the highs before the financial crisis.

[Edited 2013-02-20 13:19:23]

User currently offlineshuttle9juliet From UK - Scotland, joined Jul 2010, 192 posts, RR: 0
Reply 47, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 4594 times:

Quoting LHRFlyer (Reply 46):

Are you sure you are not Willie Walsh in disguise? Ha ha it's a joke!!!
LHRFlyer, people are only giving you their opinions, it's nothing personal against you.
You do have to look at both sides of the story and how that man has affected a lot of people working for BA,Aer Lingus and now Iberia.

Just another thing what you said to Robb, in that "are you accusing BA auditors of colluding with BA in engaging in false accounting" well was it just not that long ago that two certain executives George and Burns were "cleared" of colluding in price fixing?


User currently offlineAsturias From Spain, joined Apr 2006, 2153 posts, RR: 16
Reply 48, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 4558 times:

Quoting LHRFlyer (Reply 46):
You're accusing BA's auditors of colluding with BA in engaging in false accounting?

You question this idea as if it were absurd?

Arthur Andersen LLP comes to mind. Auditors collude with their clients. It's well within the realm of reality.

-a



Tonight we fly
User currently offlinemadhatter From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2001, 242 posts, RR: 0
Reply 49, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 4492 times:

Quoting Asturias (Reply 48):
Quoting LHRFlyer (Reply 46):
You're accusing BA's auditors of colluding with BA in engaging in false accounting?

You question this idea as if it were absurd?

Arthur Andersen LLP comes to mind. Auditors collude with their clients. It's well within the realm of reality.

Asturias this is quite possibly one of the most ridiculous comments made so far on this post and there have been a few. This practice is illegal and is the reason why Arthur Andersen are no longer in existence today due to their handling of the Enron audit. I would suggest you read up on your topic before making such wild and incorrect accusations.


User currently offlineUALWN From Andorra, joined Jun 2009, 2790 posts, RR: 2
Reply 50, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 4374 times:

Quoting madhatter (Reply 49):
This practice is illegal

Yeah, hence it has never ever happened in history. For sure. Truly. And the global financial crisis didn't happen either... And it had nothing to do with reckless evaluations by both auditors and rating agencies...



AT7/111/146/Avro/CRJ/CR9/EMB/ERJ/E75/F50/100/L15/DC9/D10/M8X/717/727/737/747/757/767/777/AB6/310/319/320/321/330/340/380
User currently offlineAR385 From Mexico, joined Nov 2003, 6202 posts, RR: 30
Reply 51, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 4332 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting madhatter (Reply 49):
This practice is illegal and is the reason why Arthur Andersen are no longer in existence today due to their handling of the Enron audit.

Cosmetically. It just quietly changed to Accenture. And yes, I was an Enron employee and believe me, they were so in bed together it was just funny. And to be clear, it was not just one audit they "mishandled" (what a wonderful understatement) it was multiple audits through at least three years. No way they did not know what was going on. Plus the fact that they were involved in the company throughout many levels with their consulting units.

Quoting UALWN (Reply 50):
And it had nothing to do with reckless evaluations by both auditors and rating agencies...

     

[Edited 2013-02-21 00:37:17]


MGGS
User currently offlineLHRFlyer From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2010, 815 posts, RR: 1
Reply 52, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 4296 times:

I'm not saying collusion between a company and its auditors cannot happen but it's a serious accusation to accuse BA and its auditors of false accounting.

User currently offlineAR385 From Mexico, joined Nov 2003, 6202 posts, RR: 30
Reply 53, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 4286 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting LHRFlyer (Reply 52):
false accounting.

"False"? No. Never. Beautified? Maybe.



MGGS
User currently offlinespantax From Belgium, joined Nov 2004, 323 posts, RR: 1
Reply 54, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 4066 times:

Update:

Yesterday there was a meeting management-workers. It lasted only 15 minutes. No results.
Today the Spanish Minister for Transport has found a mediator, a professor of Labour Law at the University of Madrid. Both parties have accepted. Mediation should begin "soon".

In the meantime, some of the professional organizations in IB have already called for more strikes in Easter. Personally I can't see the point, is madness. Perhaps you don't know it, but in Spain the "Iberia-strike-in-Easter-and-Christmas" has become almost a tradition, a well entrenched element of the Spanish national folklore. If they don't get what they want in 15 days of strike (5 x 3) I don't see what they could get in the future, only scaring more and more potential passengers.

On a side note: these last weeks I've noticed rather high prices in (intra european) IB flights. I don't know if this is the new strategy: IB Express the cheap thing, IB the expensive one, but... finally I bought my next Spain-Switzerland flight with Easyjet.

And for those interested, one link (in Spanish) to one insider (it seems) that explains all the "havoc" caused by the British and so on. For instance, the issue with freight at MAD. Interesting photo of one IB 747 being scraped.

http://requiemporiberia.blogspot.be/



A300.10.19.20.21.30.40,AN26,ATR42,AVR146,B717.27.37.47.57.77,B1900,C130,C212,CH47,CRJ200.700,DC9,DHC4,ERJ135.190,F27
User currently offlinesumma767 From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2004, 2561 posts, RR: 6
Reply 55, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 4028 times:

Quoting spantax (Reply 54):
And for those interested, one link (in Spanish) to one insider (it seems) that explains all the "havoc" caused by the British and so on

Just had a quick read, and did not take me long to find that's this is a load of bull.
The lies about IB being profitable before the merger are repeated yet again, when looking at the anual repots it's clear to see that IB has not made a cent from its own flying operation since 2007, and had the biggest loss in its own history in 2009, before the merger.
Something about cargo to JNB being transferred to "the British". Well, IB said that JNB lost almost €50m since its launch and that is why they finally gave up. If the cargo, or at least some of it, went to BA, well, sorry, but a route cannot be justified only so that the cargo doe snot end up with other operators. Stemming the losses is the priority.

And so on, plenty of other dribble on that blog. Really not worth reading at all.


User currently offlineUALWN From Andorra, joined Jun 2009, 2790 posts, RR: 2
Reply 56, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 3958 times:

Quoting spantax (Reply 54):
in Spain the "Iberia-strike-in-Easter-and-Christmas" has become almost a tradition, a well entrenched element of the Spanish national folklore.

This is a gross exaggeration. You may be mistaking ATC strikes for IB strikes.

Quoting summa767 (Reply 55):
The lies about IB being profitable before the merger are repeated yet again, when looking at the anual repots it's clear to see that IB has not made a cent from its own flying operation since 2007, and had the biggest loss in its own history in 2009, before the merger.

Well, let's repeat again the facts: IB was profitable every year from 1996 until 2010 (when the merger took place), except for 2009 (a year in which BA"s losses were 50% higher). These are the facts.



AT7/111/146/Avro/CRJ/CR9/EMB/ERJ/E75/F50/100/L15/DC9/D10/M8X/717/727/737/747/757/767/777/AB6/310/319/320/321/330/340/380
User currently offlinesumma767 From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2004, 2561 posts, RR: 6
Reply 57, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 3896 times:

Quoting UALWN (Reply 56):
Well, let's repeat again the facts: IB was profitable every year from 1996 until 2010 (when the merger took place), except for 2009 (a year in which BA"s losses were 50% higher). These are the facts.

As it has now become clear, that period coincided with Spain's boom. It is well and truly over. Wake up.


User currently offlineLHRFlyer From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2010, 815 posts, RR: 1
Reply 58, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 3883 times:

Quoting UALWN (Reply 56):
Well, let's repeat again the facts: IB was profitable every year from 1996 until 2010 (when the merger took place), except for 2009 (a year in which BA"s losses were 50% higher). These are the facts.

And how does that help Iberia in its current financial situation?


User currently offlineUALWN From Andorra, joined Jun 2009, 2790 posts, RR: 2
Reply 59, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 3769 times:

Quoting summa767 (Reply 57):
As it has now become clear, that period coincided with Spain's boom. It is well and truly over. Wake up.
Quoting LHRFlyer (Reply 58):
And how does that help Iberia in its current financial situation?

Somebody mentioned "The lies about IB being profitable before the merger." Well, I posted the facts. Now you can draw whatever conclusions you want from them. Other people can draw their own.



AT7/111/146/Avro/CRJ/CR9/EMB/ERJ/E75/F50/100/L15/DC9/D10/M8X/717/727/737/747/757/767/777/AB6/310/319/320/321/330/340/380
User currently onlinejumpjets From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2012, 815 posts, RR: 0
Reply 60, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 3748 times:

Quoting UALWN (Reply 56):
IB was profitable every year from 1996 until 2010 (when the merger took place), except for 2009 (a year in

As a boring accountant I have just spent a happy half hour looking at the annual reports of BA and IB from 2004-2010 [all on the IAG website http://www.iagshares.com/phoenix.zht...=240949&p=irol-reportsannual].

There are as any accountant will tell you more than one way to assess a company's performance but taking trading profit as one [which ignores the technical accunting adjustments that get made for financial instruments and the like] gives us a trend of trading 'success' we have:

Trading profits for the years 2010 back to 2004:
IB (26) (435) 5 284 141 81 187 [All in millions of Euros]

BA 342 (231) (220) 878 556 694 583 [All in millions of pounds,

As BA had a March year end until 2010 when it had both a March and then a Dec year end to bring it into line with IBs year end I have matched ithe BA March figures with the IB figures for the previous December.

BAs actual pre tax loss for March 2010 was over 500million due to book losses on financial instruments and the infamous pension provision.

I will leave the nationalist arguments to others but looking at the above both airlines were healthily profitable until 2008 - the financial crisis kicked in and kicked BA harder in the short term due to its greater dependency particularly on trans Atlantic premium business which collapsed. BA management takes heavy action - who can forget the endless cabin crew strikes and by the end of 2010 the benefits are seen - plus the transatlantic market rebounds.

IB loses less in the short term but the deepening economic woes in Spain mean its recovery is still a long way off.

IAG management implement similar actions as happened at BA a few years back and the employees react in the same way as the BA employees did when the BA reorganisation took place.

So Spanish or British, IAG airlines have had rough times and the tough measures that are needed are unpopular but medium term will bare fruit, and so IB reshaped and fittened up will have an important part to play in IAGs future.,


User currently offlinesumma767 From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2004, 2561 posts, RR: 6
Reply 61, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 3668 times:

Quoting UALWN (Reply 59):
Somebody mentioned "The lies about IB being profitable before the merger." Well, I posted the facts. Now you can draw whatever conclusions you want from them. Other people can draw their own.

The facts are clear. IB is losing money. Why? because the boom that it was riding it's over. IB made the worst losses in its history in 2009, before the merger. SIMPLE!


User currently offlinephxa340 From United States of America, joined Mar 2012, 890 posts, RR: 1
Reply 62, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 3644 times:

Wow just wow.

First off for the many of you that are implying WW presented BAs finances in a fabricated fashion - you are so far detached from reality it's not even funny. BA was in dire straights along with pretty much every other airline. The financial world was imploding ...

Second for those implying that IB started to falter after the merger ... Your right but you can't blatantly ignore the timeline of the EU economic downturn ... To imply that IAG was a large contributing factor in IBs problems is a gross misrepresentation of reality again.


User currently offlineUALWN From Andorra, joined Jun 2009, 2790 posts, RR: 2
Reply 63, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 3595 times:

Quoting summa767 (Reply 61):
IB made the worst losses in its history in 2009, before the merger. SIMPLE!

You forget to mention that IB made a profit in 2010, before the merger. Hence, the story is NOT SO SIMPLE. (See? I also know where the caps lock key is.)



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User currently offlinesumma767 From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2004, 2561 posts, RR: 6
Reply 64, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 3563 times:

Quoting UALWN (Reply 63):
You forget to mention that IB made a profit in 2010, before the merger. Hence, the story is NOT SO SIMPLE

Oh yes it is.
This has been discussed before but you have simply failed to acknowledge the real facts: IB only made a net profit in 2010 because of sale of assets and profist from Vueling. It generated a loss from its operations: €72m on flying. Indeed Iberia has not made a profit from its own transport of passengers since 2007. SIMPLE.
And that is on a year that Spain saw 2 quarters of economic growth as an economic stimulus was applied, that was never going to stop the bubble from imploding.

http://media.corporate-ir.net/media_...L/24/240949/2010_Annual_Report.pdf (page 118)


User currently offlinelightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 13094 posts, RR: 100
Reply 65, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 3485 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting spantax (Reply 54):
In the meantime, some of the professional organizations in IB have already called for more strikes in Easter.

I hope that is just talk. The boom is over. I know the unions are not happy, but let us see other ways to reduce the costs instead of denial about the need for cost cutting.

Quoting summa767 (Reply 57):
Quoting UALWN (Reply 56):
Well, let's repeat again the facts: IB was profitable every year from 1996 until 2010 (when the merger took place), except for 2009 (a year in which BA"s losses were 50% higher). These are the facts.

As it has now become clear, that period coincided with Spain's boom. It is well and truly over. Wake up.

I'm amazed comparing to the 'best of times' that are unlikely to return for decades. IB must adapt to the current economic conditions. IB is in bad financial shape. They must cut costs. Either that or fold.

Ligthsaber



Societies that achieve a critical mass of ideas achieve self sustaining growth; others stagnate.
User currently offlineUALWN From Andorra, joined Jun 2009, 2790 posts, RR: 2
Reply 66, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 3456 times:

Quoting summa767 (Reply 64):
It generated a loss from its operations: €72m on flying.

Where do you get that from?? The operational loss was €3m on recurrent operation plus €23m in non-recurrent operations for a total of €26m.

Quoting summa767 (Reply 64):
IB only made a net profit in 2010 because of sale of assets and profist from Vueling.

I don't see any relevant asset sale. Vueling, of course, is 49% owned by IB, so it does count.

Quoting summa767 (Reply 64):
Indeed Iberia has not made a profit from its own transport of passengers since 2007.

Why is that the only relevant part? IB is not only about flying airplanes with the IB logo. It's about handling, it's about Vueling, it's about the whole thing. Just as the LH group, where LH is having trouble by itself, but the LH group is profitable thanks to Technik, LSG, LX, etc.



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User currently onlineSCQ83 From United States of America, joined Oct 2012, 930 posts, RR: 0
Reply 67, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 3424 times:

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 20):
IB needs to be reformed with more connections to the East from that wonderful South American feed.

I don't think IB should expand to the East long-haul, and it is the less of its problems. There are no major links between Spain and any particular far East market (like let's say London and Hong Kong) and competing with Asian carriers direct is much harder. You gotta compete with the likes of EK, QR or SQ that from Spain have multiplied the possibilities to connect with Asia. Another thing is mid-haul markets that could be served by A319s (like TLV or DME now)... I can think of BEY, some additional cities in Eastern Europe (Ukraine, Russia) or even more exotic markets like Saudi Arabia.

I would focus on connectivity with OW partners from MAD. It will be interesting to see how QR plays its DOH-MAD flights when they join Oneworld and to what extend they will collaborate to carry passengers from LATAM to Asia. CX starting HKG-MAD and to a lesser extent JAL with NRT-MAD would be interesting additions, IMO.

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 65):
I'm amazed comparing to the 'best of times' that are unlikely to return for decades. IB must adapt to the current economic conditions. IB is in bad financial shape. They must cut costs. Either that or fold.

I wouldn't be that negative about IB and the economy. The major decrease in traffic is domestic, and that's due to the crisis (that obviously affects more the domestic traffic), new HSL trains taking most of the traffic on some domestic routes and the competition of cheaper options like Ryanair.

But still IB can play a major role for IAG because of its location, MAD's T4 and Spain's links to LATAM with the LATAM and West Africa - Europe traffic, that is meant to increase despite the economic situation in Spain.


User currently offlineUALWN From Andorra, joined Jun 2009, 2790 posts, RR: 2
Reply 68, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 3414 times:

Quoting summa767 (Reply 64):
Indeed Iberia has not made a profit from its own transport of passengers since 2007. SIMPLE.

Oh, and you keep posting this, while IB made a (modest) €5m operating profit in 2008. Why do you need to twist the numbers every time there's a discussion about IB?



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User currently offlinesumma767 From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2004, 2561 posts, RR: 6
Reply 69, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 3392 times:

Quoting UALWN (Reply 66):
Where do you get that from?? The operational loss was €3m on recurrent operation plus €23m in non-recurrent operations for a total of €26m.

I told you exactly where the figures are: Page 118!!! How many times do I have to repeat that?!
Did you even read my short sentence? €72m loss on flying. That the overall operational loss was 26m means that other "non-flying" segments of the business offset that, with third party maintenance making around 50m most most years.

Quoting UALWN (Reply 68):
Oh, and you keep posting this, while IB made a (modest) €5m operating profit in 2008. Why do you need to twist the numbers every time there's a discussion about IB?

You really have to have everything spelled out, don't you? If there was a modest operational profit iin 2008 s because of the third party maintenance and handling, *not* because of transporting passengers and cargo., i,e: flying! It's all on the reports.

Quoting UALWN (Reply 66):
I don't see any relevant asset sale. Vueling, of course, is 49% owned by IB, so it does count.

IB has been selling stakes in Amadeus. That has helped embellish the net results.
Vueling does count: Vuelng does make money from flying. IB doed not.

Quoting UALWN (Reply 66):
Why is that the only relevant part? IB is not only about flying airplanes with the IB logo. It's about handling, it's about Vueling, it's about the whole thing

Then IB may just as well shut its own flying operation and give it all to Vueling, and enjoy much better financial results without its own losses.
Indeed, I am quite sure Vueling will do more flying out of MAD, especially if IAG acquires Vueling in its totality.


User currently offlineUALWN From Andorra, joined Jun 2009, 2790 posts, RR: 2
Reply 70, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 3336 times:

Quoting summa767 (Reply 69):
IB has been selling stakes in Amadeus. That has helped embellish the net results.

Not in 2010.

Quoting summa767 (Reply 69):
Then IB may just as well shut its own flying operation and give it all to Vueling, and enjoy much better financial results without its own losses.

Really? Then why doesn't LH shut down and let everybody fly LX? Heck, why doesn't IAG shut down IB then? Oh wait...

Quoting summa767 (Reply 69):
You really have to have everything spelled out, don't you?

Well, I guess I don't understand your fixation with the results from flying. IB is more than that. Just like BA is. Furthermore, there is some latitude when attributing expenses to flying, handling, maintenance, etc. Only the total sum in unambiguous.

Quoting summa767 (Reply 69):
It's all on the reports.

Which I read, and pointed out to you in a previous threat. You're welcome. In the 2008 report it shows that IB was profitable, and it made a modest operational profit. And that's all that matters.



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User currently offlinesumma767 From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2004, 2561 posts, RR: 6
Reply 71, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 3318 times:

Quoting UALWN (Reply 70):
Which I read, and pointed out to you in a previous threat. You're welcome. In the 2008 report it shows that IB was profitable, and it made a modest operational profit. And that's all that matters.

So why did it not make an operational profit in 2009 and 2010?


User currently offlineUALWN From Andorra, joined Jun 2009, 2790 posts, RR: 2
Reply 72, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 3289 times:

Quoting summa767 (Reply 71):
So why did it not make an operational profit in 2009 and 2010?

Probably for the same reason BA didn't make an operational profit either?



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User currently offlinesumma767 From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2004, 2561 posts, RR: 6
Reply 73, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 3241 times:

Quoting UALWN (Reply 72):
Probably for the same reason BA didn't make an operational profit either?

in 2009 The crisis, right? and yet BA's results for 2010 (April to December, when BA was still single) show an operating profit of £342m.
http://media.corporate-ir.net/media_...Accounts31Dec2010UploadVersion.pdf

Contrary to what you or some of your compatriots may believe, BAs turn around came after its restructuring and as the crisis started to ease off in its major markets. Not because it's "stealing" Iberia's markets.



[Edited 2013-02-21 14:51:10]

User currently offlineUALWN From Andorra, joined Jun 2009, 2790 posts, RR: 2
Reply 74, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 3196 times:

Quoting summa767 (Reply 73):
Contrary to what you or some of your compatriots may believe, BAs turn around came after its restructuring and as the crisis started to ease off in its major markets. Not because it's "stealing" Iberia's markets.

I don't think I said anything like that! I just pointed out the results of IB before the merger (yep, those that you called 'lies"), and then let anybody draw their own conclusions.



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User currently offlinesumma767 From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2004, 2561 posts, RR: 6
Reply 75, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 3187 times:

Quoting UALWN (Reply 74):
I don't think I said anything like that! I just pointed out the results of IB before the merger (yep, those that you called 'lies"), and then let anybody draw their own conclusions.

Lies indeed. In the blog mentioned it specifically said that IB was profitable right until the merger with BA. Well, that has been well proven to be wrong. The conclusion is clear: Those who are trying to blame BA for IB's troubles are barking at the wrong tree.


User currently offlineUALWN From Andorra, joined Jun 2009, 2790 posts, RR: 2
Reply 76, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 3176 times:

Quoting summa767 (Reply 75):
In the blog mentioned it specifically said that IB was profitable right until the merger with BA. Well, that has been well proven to be wrong.

Well, IB was profitable in 14 out of the 15 years previous to the merger with BA. I would say this is close enough to "profitable right until the merger with BA." Now you may argue about why this was so, and why this was going to change anyway, merger or not. Those are your opinions. I may have different opinions. But you can't argue about the facts.



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User currently offlinesumma767 From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2004, 2561 posts, RR: 6
Reply 77, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 3213 times:

Quoting UALWN (Reply 76):
But you can't argue about the facts.

One such fact is that Spain was riding an economic bubble that burst, and burst badly.
Another fact is that IB had its worse losses in its history in 2009, prior to the merger.


User currently offlineUALWN From Andorra, joined Jun 2009, 2790 posts, RR: 2
Reply 78, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 3189 times:

Quoting summa767 (Reply 77):
One such fact is that Spain was riding an economic bubble that burst, and burst badly.

And yet UX is still making money... And VY.

Quoting summa767 (Reply 77):
Another fact is that IB had its worse losses in its history in 2009, prior to the merger.

You have said that before. A number of times, actually. And I have also said that that was one year out of 15. And that in 2010 IB was profitable again. And now you will reply "but in 2010 IB lost money on their flight operations." And we can continue on and on and on. And nobody will care.



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User currently offlineAsturias From Spain, joined Apr 2006, 2153 posts, RR: 16
Reply 79, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 3149 times:

Quoting phxa340 (Reply 62):
First off for the many of you that are implying WW presented BAs finances in a fabricated fashion - you are so far detached from reality it's not even funny.

Not really, just pointing out that it is well within the realm of reality and reason. WW was trying financial stunts with Aer Lingus but got his fingers burned.. perhaps he had more success in playing games with BA.

Quoting phxa340 (Reply 62):
BA was in dire straights along with pretty much every other airline. The financial world was imploding ...

Pretty much every airline? IB was doing great at the time BA was having it's 'difficulties'. Apparently the implosion of the financial world only affects when it suits one's narrative.

It is most naive to discard the notion that the people who run 'old' school companies like airlines aren't looking for a quick personal profit, be it the end of the company they are running or not. Such is neither here nor there in the minds of people like WW.

-a



Tonight we fly
User currently offlinesumma767 From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2004, 2561 posts, RR: 6
Reply 80, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 3007 times:

Quoting UALWN (Reply 78):
And yet UX is still making money... And VY.

And IB can too if it restructures! Cost base is key.
BTW, you failed to notice that Spanair went bust! Oh, and Orbest just this week.
That Easyjet and Ryanair are cutting routes left right and centre from MAD.
Other points in Spain are faring better as they still receive a lot of visitors even if the local demand has collapsed.

Quoting UALWN (Reply 78):
but in 2010 IB lost money on their flight operations

It did. I has lost money from transport of passengers and cargo since 2008. It is just not competitive at the moment. Simple.


User currently offlineUALWN From Andorra, joined Jun 2009, 2790 posts, RR: 2
Reply 81, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 2845 times:

Quoting summa767 (Reply 80):
And IB can too if it restructures! Cost base is key.

Maybe. You can see things in a different way: before 2010 both UX and IB were profitable. Since then, one of them was integrated into IAG and started losing money, while the other remained independent and kept on being profitable, without restructuring and operating in the same "terrible" economical situation Spain is in...

Quoting summa767 (Reply 80):
BTW, you failed to notice that Spanair went bust! Oh, and Orbest just this week.

JK had been badly mismanaged for years, and, unsurprisingly, failed. Before this week, I had never even heard of Orbest. This give you an idea of how relevant they are (or were).

Quoting summa767 (Reply 80):
I has lost money from transport of passengers and cargo since 2008.

OK, let's play again. Yes, you've said this a number of times. I already asked why were you fixated with this particular part of the whole IB group, but you didn't answer. I guess I also have the right to repeat myself: IB made a profit in 14 out of the 15 years before the merger with BA.

We can keep at it forever, while everybody else steers away from this thread, wisely.



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User currently offlinesumma767 From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2004, 2561 posts, RR: 6
Reply 82, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 2765 times:

Quoting UALWN (Reply 81):
Maybe. You can see things in a different way: before 2010 both UX and IB were profitable. Since then, one of them was integrated into IAG and started losing money, while the other remained independent and kept on being profitable

What a load of rubbish! UX was not profitable in 2011. More "facts" that you just make up:
http://www.02b.com/es/notices/2012/0...s_por_culpa_de_air_europa_2398.php

Quoting UALWN (Reply 81):
without restructuring and operating in the same "terrible" economical situation Spain is in...

It is certainly a terrible economic situation. Air Europa DID have lay off staff under an "ERE": http://www.lavanguardia.com/economia...limina-129-puestos-de-trabajo.html
It also rationalised routes by coming to an agreement with Air Pullmatur.
Do your research before coming up with spurious "facts" taht can so easily be proven wrong.

Quoting UALWN (Reply 81):
Before this week, I had never even heard of Orbest. This give you an idea of how relevant they are (or were).

They were formerly knows as Iberworld, which I am sure you have heard of.
Still, a Spanish airline going bust. And no UK connection on which it could be blamed.

[Edited 2013-02-22 04:14:18]

User currently offlineUALWN From Andorra, joined Jun 2009, 2790 posts, RR: 2
Reply 83, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 2677 times:

Quoting summa767 (Reply 82):
What a load of rubbish! UX was not profitable in 2011.

Rubbish? What rubbish? Globalia made a €17m profit in 2010 and lost a tiny €1m in 2011. So, overall, it was profitable in 2010+2011.

Quoting summa767 (Reply 82):
Air Europa DID have lay off staff under an "ERE"

UX laid off 129 people in 2012, in agreement with the unions. This is in striking (pun intended) contrast with what WW is trying to do in IB. And this is the point. There are ways and ways of (allegedly) returning to profitability. And "the British" (proxy for WW) would only have it one way....

This is the crux of the matter. You and others have been invoking the "terrible situation of the Spanish economy" to explain that IB's situation was unavoidable, and that laying off 3000+ employees is the only cure. Yet, other companies (UX and VY, for instance) have dealt with the same economical situation in other ways, and they are doing just fine. Others, like JK, have succumbed.



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User currently offlinesumma767 From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2004, 2561 posts, RR: 6
Reply 84, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 2670 times:

Quoting UALWN (Reply 83):
Rubbish? What rubbish? Globalia made a €17m profit in 2010 and lost a tiny €1m in 2011. So, overall, it was profitable in 2010+2011.

Rubbish indeed. Air Europa made a loss of €13m

Quoting UALWN (Reply 83):
Yet, other companies (UX and VY, for instance) have dealt with the same economical situation in other ways, and they are doing just fine. Others, like JK, have succumbed.

You can keep your head buried in the sand, but Air Europa made a loss.
Vueling have fared better, as their cost structure is leaner, and it has been clever enough to diversify its market.

Quoting UALWN (Reply 83):
And "the British" (proxy for WW)

WW is actually Irish. Can you not get a single fact right?


User currently offlineparapente From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2006, 1581 posts, RR: 10
Reply 85, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 2620 times:

Although it is totally correct that BA did not "buy" Iberia it was de facto that way.BA should have not "blnked" and felt the need to keep up with "others" and aquire another European "partner".

The old saying is "buy quality or buy twice" and it holds good for this "merger". As has been said - they have some S American routes based on cultural history. And what else? Italia,Olympic etc etc just dead airlines based on the old values that an airline said something positive (grown up) about your country.It did not and does not.

What BA needed/ needs was not a second airline but a third runway


User currently offlineN From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2005, 55 posts, RR: 0
Reply 86, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 2621 times:

Not sure I want to get involved in the bun fight the two of you are having but anyway......

Quoting UALWN (Reply 83):
UX laid off 129 people in 2012,

Although the number seems small, that is almost 5% of their total number of employees, so not as insignificant as it first appears. Clearly not as significant as the suggested number and percentage of layoffs at IB but still a reasonable percentage.


User currently onlineSCQ83 From United States of America, joined Oct 2012, 930 posts, RR: 0
Reply 87, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 2603 times:

Quoting summa767 (Reply 84):
You can keep your head buried in the sand, but Air Europa made a loss.
Vueling have fared better, as their cost structure is leaner, and it has been clever enough to diversify its market.

Issues with those airlines is management and lack of market understanding. IB is still managed as a public monopoly and UX as a "family company"... Air Europa doesn't know whether they want to be a pseudo-charter, a domestic airline (with the crisis and the high-speed train they keep opening and outsourcing domestic routes... hello?) or a pseudo-legacy (Skyteam) starting and cancelling European routes (BRU or GVA). Momentarily they might take advantage of the chaos in Iberia by tapping markets such as HAV, MVD or SDQ... but it is just a question of time for IB to come back to those places and kick UX out of there. Just take a look at www.aireuropa.com. It is a trip to the past.

VY has been well managed from day one (from branding to route strategy), with various sources of capital from both Spain and abroad. And they have kept growing despite the economic situation in Spain. I would keep an eye on Volotea; it has basically been created by the same people, and they have an interesting model to connect secondary destinations in Europe (interestingly, despite being based in BCN, they have just been away from the Spanish market). I just remember how many ppl in Spain literally laughed at Vueling back in 2004 (when it was created) because of its "funky" style (which for them, meant little understanding of aviation), and how it would not survive with IB, UX and JK.


User currently offlineBA0197 From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2011, 313 posts, RR: 1
Reply 88, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 2561 times:

Quoting parapente (Reply 85):
What BA needed/ needs was not a second airline but a third runway

I agree with this very strongly. Looking with hindesight, IB got a hell of a deal when the merger was finalized. I would hazrd a guess that now, if the contracts were renegociated, IB would own no more than 30% of the new company. I feel that IB got a deal they did not have the merit to deserve.

I belive BA would be much better to not be under the bubble of IB, because, I would hazard a guess that now, BA profits are helping to keep IB alfoat.

Like I said earlier :

I think not. In all honesty.

Of course there is future for Spanish air travel, but I do envision that IB will not be around much longer due to the ignorance and stupidity of the staff blaming BA for their trouble (I just can't get my mind around how they came to that conclusion- have they not seen their economy of the Spanish unemployment figures?)

There needs to be a state-of-mind change within IB for it to improve. I feel its stubbornness to change will result in its ultimate termination.


I believe IAG managment should look at creating a Virgin Atlantic of Iberia, transfer all short haul operations to Veuling (once they get bought out) and continue to be a stratagic long-haul operator.

Perhaps I am being too radical here, but if I were the managment I would be thinking very strongly about the above plan. Spain is too diluted with low-cost airlines and the market does not demand heavy permium travel I'm afraid. Simply want to create an airline sutiable to its country.


User currently offliner2rho From Germany, joined Feb 2007, 2629 posts, RR: 1
Reply 89, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 2445 times:

Quoting jumpjets (Reply 60):

looking at the above both airlines were healthily profitable until 2008 - the financial crisis kicked in and kicked BA harder in the short term due to its greater dependency particularly on trans Atlantic premium business which collapsed. BA management takes heavy action - who can forget the endless cabin crew strikes and by the end of 2010 the benefits are seen - plus the transatlantic market rebounds.

IB loses less in the short term but the deepening economic woes in Spain mean its recovery is still a long way off.

Thank you. Probably the best BA/IB pre-merger profit-loss analysis posted to date.   

Quoting summa767 (Reply 61):
because the boom that it was riding it's over.

I would not say it was "riding" the boom in the sense that IB's fleet and route network remained virtually unchanged in overall number while the rest of the Spanish economy was expanding like crazy. The boom did however enable IB to run that network profitably despite their high cost base, thereby likely delaying cost optimization decisions.

Quoting SCQ83 (Reply 67):
Another thing is mid-haul markets that could be served by A319s (like TLV or DME now)... I can think of BEY, some additional cities in Eastern Europe (Ukraine, Russia) or even more exotic markets like Saudi Arabia.

Don't forget Africa - IB can cover all of West Africa with A319's; no need to fill an A330, enabling higher frequencies to thin markets. They already have a few A319 in 2-class config with a true business class. It's not a huge market, but high-yielding with little competition. IMO this should be further exploited by IB, there is money to make there.

Quoting SCQ83 (Reply 87):
Air Europa doesn't know whether they want to be a pseudo-charter, a domestic airline [...] or a pseudo-legacy

Indeed, UX is a bit like the AB of Spain  


User currently offlineUALWN From Andorra, joined Jun 2009, 2790 posts, RR: 2
Reply 90, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 2420 times:

Quoting summa767 (Reply 84):
Rubbish indeed. Air Europa made a loss of €13m

Again, you choose whatever numbers suit you best. The group Globalia, which consolidates its profits and losses, was profitable in 2010+2011.

Quoting summa767 (Reply 84):
Vueling have fared better, as their cost structure is leaner, and it has been clever enough to diversify its market.

So maybe IAG's management has not been clever enough with respect to IB?

Quoting summa767 (Reply 84):
WW is actually Irish. Can you not get a single fact right?

I know very well that WW is Irish. I just said that "the British" is meant as a proxy for WW, wherever he hails from. And, please, stop with the derogatory comments. I have tried to be polite up to now, but I'm losing my patience.

Quoting N (Reply 86):
Although the number seems small, that is almost 5% of their total number of employees, so not as insignificant as it first appears. Clearly not as significant as the suggested number and percentage of layoffs at IB but still a reasonable percentage.

The fraction is very different, and the layoffs were done within a plan agreed with the unions. Big difference.

Quoting BA0197 (Reply 88):
I feel that IB got a deal they did not have the merit to deserve.

At the time of the merger, the feeling is Spain was exactly the opposite: BA was in worse shape than IB, particularly with their huge pension liability. It was widely felt that IB didn't get its fair share.

Quoting BA0197 (Reply 88):
I just can't get my mind around how they came to that conclusion- have they not seen their economy of the Spanish unemployment figures?

As I mentioned just a few posts above, other Spanish airlines are doing just fine, despite the economy and the unemployment. Figure that...



AT7/111/146/Avro/CRJ/CR9/EMB/ERJ/E75/F50/100/L15/DC9/D10/M8X/717/727/737/747/757/767/777/AB6/310/319/320/321/330/340/380
User currently offlineBA0197 From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2011, 313 posts, RR: 1
Reply 91, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 2415 times:

Quoting UALWN (Reply 90):
As I mentioned just a few posts above, other Spanish airlines are doing just fine, despite the economy and the unemployment. Figure that...

That's becasue all the other airlines in Spain are not legacy carriers with its assosiated requirements and policies. Air Europa is too small to be a substantial thought. The fact is that all other major airlines in Spain are low-cost: the force of the Spanish market. FR and EZY have grown while IB are shrinking (not that they are Spanish airlines, but they both do have a huge presence in the Spanish market). I mantain my position.


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