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Star Alliance Without CLT  
User currently offlinedalca From Netherlands, joined Aug 2006, 535 posts, RR: 0
Posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 16256 times:

With the US/AA merger and the upcoming news that US will leave Star Alliance and join Oneworld, is Star Allaince then not very badly represented in the South-eastern US?
IAD is the hub closest by to the north and IAH way to the west.

Is there an airport Star Alliance might want to start a mini-hub at in the area?


Zanair flight, please hold on finals as we have to clear rhino's off the runway. Next flight KUL-FRA-AMS Flown in A319,A
125 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineslcdeltarumd11 From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 3559 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 16240 times:

I just think they will live without a hub in the area. I cant really see many options for them. In 2013 they are not going to create a new hub I just cant see that happening.

User currently offlineredzeppelin From United States of America, joined Feb 2012, 614 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 16165 times:

IAD (Europe), IAH (Latin Am.) and even ORD (Asia) aren't bad for providing international connections to the Southeastern states, nor are they bad for routing traffic to other areas of North America. The real issue is for routing traffic within the region. I think that is UA's problem more than *A's.


Flown: DL,OS,NZ,UN,VV,NW,AA,UA,HP,TZ,AS,AF,KL,SK,WS,AZ,OK; op by OO,MQ,XJ,9E,G7,EV,QX,RP
User currently offlineWAC From United States of America, joined Nov 2008, 275 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 15927 times:

CLT is the MEM of AA/US slow de-hubbing. For * alliance IAD is better positioned for a hub for(yield wise) for South-Easter US, and please not IAD is classed as in the South-eastern US...

User currently offlinebobloblaw From United States of America, joined Jan 2012, 1725 posts, RR: 1
Reply 4, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 15906 times:

Quoting WAC (Reply 3):
CLT is the MEM of AA/US slow de-hubbing.

No it isnt. This argument is so incorrect on every level. Only someone clueless about geography, national economics and airline economics would make such a claim.


User currently offlineflyingalex From Germany, joined Jul 2010, 1016 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 15737 times:

One thing is sure: LH will continue to fly MUC-CLT. There is a lot of German investment in the area and they have some very lucrative corporate contracts that allow the route to perform well.


Public service announcement: "It's" = "it is". To indicate posession, write "its." Looks wrong, but it's correct grammar
User currently offlineUSAirALB From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 3112 posts, RR: 2
Reply 6, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 15712 times:

Quoting flyingalex (Reply 5):
One thing is sure: LH will continue to fly MUC-CLT. There is a lot of German investment in the area and they have some very lucrative corporate contracts that allow the route to perform well.

How can you be so sure? I've been thinking a lot about this route lately ever since the merger announcement. I understand the ties between CLT and Germany, and the route does have a lot of contracts (BMW, Siemens, Continental AG, Daimler come to mind) but is it enough to sustain a nonstop flight? Surely the summer A346 will go away. I've also considered LH switching the MUC flight to FRA.



E135/E140/E145/E70/E75/E90/CR2/CR7/CR9/717/732/733/734/735/73G/738/739/752/753/762/772/319/320/321/333
User currently offlineunityofsaints From Ireland, joined Nov 2011, 49 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 15577 times:

It's a big loss. It seems like Star has been going backwards in recent years while Skyteam and Oneworld have been adding members. When I started collecting CO miles in 2008 I didn't expect the alliance weakening in this fashion...

User currently offlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 23148 posts, RR: 20
Reply 8, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 15509 times:

Quoting USAirALB (Reply 6):
I understand the ties between CLT and Germany, and the route does have a lot of contracts (BMW, Siemens, Continental AG, Daimler come to mind) but is it enough to sustain a nonstop flight?

The trouble is that demand to Germany is spread out over all of Germany. Siemens and BMW, obviously, have Munich connections, but Continental is in HAJ and Daimler is in STR. As between FRA and MUC, it's obviously easiest to get to HAJ from FRA, but STR is a closer question. With AA/US in Oneworld, though, I wonder whether CLT-LHR-STR is the easiest way to get to Stuttgart from Charlotte.



I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
User currently offlineAVLAirlineFreq From United States of America, joined Jun 2008, 1064 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 15458 times:

Quoting flyingalex (Reply 5):
One thing is sure: LH will continue to fly MUC-CLT. There is a lot of German investment in the area and they have some very lucrative corporate contracts that allow the route to perform well.
Quoting USAirALB (Reply 6):
How can you be so sure? I've been thinking a lot about this route lately ever since the merger announcement. I understand the ties between CLT and Germany, and the route does have a lot of contracts (BMW, Siemens, Continental AG, Daimler come to mind) but is it enough to sustain a nonstop flight? Surely the summer A346 will go away. I've also considered LH switching the MUC flight to FRA.

This route has been oft-discussed during the run up to the merger announcement. Is it possible that if LH leaves the route after the merger, US/AA would begin flying it? Or, as Cubsrule points out, could the German interests best be served via LHR?


User currently offlineIrishAyes From United States of America, joined Jan 2008, 2214 posts, RR: 15
Reply 10, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 15447 times:

Quoting WAC (Reply 3):

CLT is the MEM of AA/US slow de-hubbing. For * alliance IAD is better positioned for a hub for(yield wise) for South-Easter US, and please not IAD is classed as in the South-eastern US...

Far from it. CLT is a high-yielding hub with a large amount of O&D traffic. MEM, on the other hand, was a hub inherited from DL purely due to the NW merger and initially was supposed to play a smaller "reliever" hub role in the DL network. Of course, everyone knew that the long-term practicality of this was unsustainable, and there were broader implications that as older, 50-seat RJs gradually retired, MEM's purpose in the DL hub network would diminish considerably. CLT is not even remotely near being filed in that same category.

As far as the impacts on Star, I'd argue that it will hurt, yes, but not to a huge scale. IAD and IAH can hopefully fill in some steps in the SE, and truthfully, I don't think that Star has much to worry about in terms of losing CLT's TATL and Latin American/Caribbean networks.

Truthfully, I think the bigger loss for Star overall will be losing JJ to OneWorld in a few months, as that presence in Brasil is key.



next flights: jfk-icn, icn-hkg-bkk-cdg, cdg-phl-msp
User currently offlinejoost From Netherlands, joined Apr 2005, 3171 posts, RR: 4
Reply 11, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 15336 times:

Quoting flyingalex (Reply 5):
One thing is sure: LH will continue to fly MUC-CLT. There is a lot of German investment in the area and they have some very lucrative corporate contracts that allow the route to perform well.

It's still not certain IMO. These corporate contracts might fill say, 30 seats per flight? If these are sold at premium fares, they can be a very good reason to fly the route. But then even for the smallest 333, 187 seats to fill. Seats easy to fill with virtually unlimited USA connections from CLT, but harder when you only have the MUC network.

And for Daimler/Mercedes-Benz, based in STR, are probably more fond of using DLs STR-ATL-BHM connection.

If corporate contracts could fill such a route, wouldn't there be a non-stop OSL-IAH? (Even a route with hubs on both ends...)


User currently offlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 23148 posts, RR: 20
Reply 12, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 15295 times:

Quoting joost (Reply 11):
And for Daimler/Mercedes-Benz, based in STR, are probably more fond of using DLs STR-ATL-BHM connection.

Daimler Trucks (formerly Freightliner) has significant operations near Charlotte.

[Edited 2013-02-18 13:39:59]


I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
User currently offlineUSAirALB From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 3112 posts, RR: 2
Reply 13, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 15244 times:

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 8):
Quoting AVLAirlineFreq (Reply 9):

I think LH is probably going to sit back and see how the new AA handles Germany. Traffic from CLT-Germany is larger than traffic from CLT-LON. CLT-Germany will continue to be served, but the questions remains on who will do the flying. CLT-FRA can easily support a year-round flight, but I can see either LH or AA operating it. I believe LH can make CLT-FRA work without the US codeshare feed. As for MUC, there is a sizeable amount of O/D between the two cities, so it's really anyone's guess if LH continues to fly it.

Another big question is will/when will BA resume the CLT market.

Quoting joost (Reply 11):
And for Daimler/Mercedes-Benz, based in STR, are probably more fond of using DLs STR-ATL-BHM connection.

Daimler Trucks North America is based in Ft. Mill, SC, less than 16 miles south of CLT.



E135/E140/E145/E70/E75/E90/CR2/CR7/CR9/717/732/733/734/735/73G/738/739/752/753/762/772/319/320/321/333
User currently offlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 23148 posts, RR: 20
Reply 14, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 15143 times:

Quoting USAirALB (Reply 13):
Daimler Trucks North America is based in Ft. Mill, SC, less than 16 miles south of CLT.


(Ticky tacky alert): I believe their headquarters is actually in PDX, but Freightliner is in Fort Mill and Statesville, Freightliner Custom Chassis is in Gaffney and Thomas Built Buses is in High Point. There's almost certainly more Daimler Trucks traffic to CLT than to PDX.



I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
User currently offlineIrishAyes From United States of America, joined Jan 2008, 2214 posts, RR: 15
Reply 15, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 15051 times:

Quoting unityofsaints (Reply 7):
It's a big loss. It seems like Star has been going backwards in recent years while Skyteam and Oneworld have been adding members. When I started collecting CO miles in 2008 I didn't expect the alliance weakening in this fashion...

I don't think that's truly a fair/accurate assessment. Each alliance has its superior strengths and weaknesses. While each would ideally love to have as much market share dominance in as many regions as possible, that is nearly impossible to achieve. Airlines still need to be able to compete against each other in order to stay in the business, and as more members are added to the alliance, conflicts of interest start to rise. That has what has led to the recent game-changers that have spurred new tie-ups involving the Middle East carriers.



next flights: jfk-icn, icn-hkg-bkk-cdg, cdg-phl-msp
User currently offlinejoost From Netherlands, joined Apr 2005, 3171 posts, RR: 4
Reply 16, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 15049 times:

Quoting USAirALB (Reply 13):
Daimler Trucks North America is based in Ft. Mill, SC, less than 16 miles south of CLT.

But on the German side, Daimler is still in Stuttgart, and their truck division (manufacturing) is in Worth, even further from MUC and closer to FRA. It doesn't make MUC very attractive. For intercontinental hubs from STR, FRA is closer than MUC.


User currently offlineflyingalex From Germany, joined Jul 2010, 1016 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 14927 times:

Quoting USAirALB (Reply 6):
How can you be so sure? I've been thinking a lot about this route lately ever since the merger announcement. I understand the ties between CLT and Germany, and the route does have a lot of contracts (BMW, Siemens, Continental AG, Daimler come to mind) but is it enough to sustain a nonstop flight? Surely the summer A346 will go away. I've also considered LH switching the MUC flight to FRA.
Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 8):
The trouble is that demand to Germany is spread out over all of Germany. Siemens and BMW, obviously, have Munich connections, but Continental is in HAJ and Daimler is in STR. As between FRA and MUC, it's obviously easiest to get to HAJ from FRA, but STR is a closer question. With AA/US in Oneworld, though, I wonder whether CLT-LHR-STR is the easiest way to get to Stuttgart from Charlotte.
Quoting AVLAirlineFreq (Reply 9):
This route has been oft-discussed during the run up to the merger announcement. Is it possible that if LH leaves the route after the merger, US/AA would begin flying it? Or, as Cubsrule points out, could the German interests best be served via LHR?
Quoting joost (Reply 11):
It's still not certain IMO. These corporate contracts might fill say, 30 seats per flight? If these are sold at premium fares, they can be a very good reason to fly the route. But then even for the smallest 333, 187 seats to fill. Seats easy to fill with virtually unlimited USA connections from CLT, but harder when you only have the MUC network.

And for Daimler/Mercedes-Benz, based in STR, are probably more fond of using DLs STR-ATL-BHM connection.

If corporate contracts could fill such a route, wouldn't there be a non-stop OSL-IAH? (Even a route with hubs on both ends...)

One thing you're all forgetting is the strength of the Munich hub, especially for intra-European connections. Yes, MUC does not have as much longhaul as Frankfurt does, but LH serves more European destinations from MUC than they do from FRA. There are frequent domestic connections, even to airports like STR or NUE which are relatively close by.

MUC is a wonderful airport to connect at - fast, easy, efficient. The place just works. It's a lot more pleasant than connecting at FRA, easier than connecting at Heathrow's Terminal 5 and streets ahead of the T3 T5 shuffle if connecting between AA and BA.

Then you need to consider that large corporate contracts with Lufthansa (BMW, Siemens, Daimler, etc.) are usually not route-based deals but more of a volume discount across the whole network. The company might have 15-20 longhaul destinations that they regularly book people to, and they're not going to negotiate something separate for each destination. It's usually better to concentrate on a few carriers that can offer a wide reach, and to make sure that the booking volume remains high. The higher your volume, the bigger your discount.

One other thing that LH has going for it: Miles & More has a very large number of members (and even a few fans) within the German corporate world. Those people with some influence over their travel plans will follow the miles.

MUC-CLT is going to stay, I am sure of it. And I think there is a reasonable chance that LH will start FRA-CLT, especially if US reduces their own services to Germany post-merger.



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User currently offlinecv880 From United States of America, joined Mar 2007, 1134 posts, RR: 2
Reply 18, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 14916 times:

Quoting dalca (Thread starter):
Is there an airport Star Alliance might want to start a mini-hub at in the area?

Maybe MEM as an east-west hub (as DL continues to pull it down) or BNA/BHM as an alternative to CLT. RDU is too close to IAD.

The LH flight will now become an O&D flight without *A and was once a 747 without an alliance. If the cargo demand is sufficient, it could possibly make it on it's own with something smaller than the A346, but certainly not the end of the world for CLT as US/AA will more than likely continue a presence in the CLT-Germany market.


User currently offlineintermodal64 From United States of America, joined May 2006, 126 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 14886 times:

Would a Private Air type of operation have the range for CLT from either FRA or MUC? I remember they used to fly ORD-DUS for either LH or UA with an A-319. I just don't see filling 170 economy seats every day to CLT without a giant connecting bank in CLT to support those seats.

User currently offlineflyingalex From Germany, joined Jul 2010, 1016 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 14883 times:

Quoting joost (Reply 16):
But on the German side, Daimler is still in Stuttgart, and their truck division (manufacturing) is in Worth, even further from MUC and closer to FRA. It doesn't make MUC very attractive. For intercontinental hubs from STR, FRA is closer than MUC.

See my earlier post. MUC is very attractive.

If I have a choice between, for example, STR-FRA-LAX and STR-MUC-LAX, I would go via MUC every time.

And STR-MUC-xxx (where xxx is a longhaul destination) is going to be faster than driving or taking the train to FRA and then flying nonstop from there as long as the connection time is reasonable.



Public service announcement: "It's" = "it is". To indicate posession, write "its." Looks wrong, but it's correct grammar
User currently offlineflyingalex From Germany, joined Jul 2010, 1016 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 14856 times:

Quoting intermodal64 (Reply 19):
I just don't see filling 170 economy seats every day to CLT without a giant connecting bank in CLT to support those seats.

That's because you're forgetting the giant connecting bank at the MUC end.

Quoting intermodal64 (Reply 19):
Would a Private Air type of operation have the range for CLT from either FRA or MUC? I remember they used to fly ORD-DUS for either LH or UA with an A-319.

That was for LH. Privatair have also flown AMS-IAH for KLM, so the range is not an issue. It would certainly be a possibility, but I think LH can make CLT work on their own metal.



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User currently offlineBirdwatching From Germany, joined Sep 2003, 3823 posts, RR: 51
Reply 22, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 14809 times:

I don't have much of a clue about United's history, but didn't MIA use to be some sort of a United hub at some point? I remember flying from JFK to SCL in 2002 and it was via MIA. So MIA must have been a hub for LatAm traffic at one point.
Or what about MCO, could that be built into a Star Alliance hub? Or too much leisure traffic?

Soren   



All the things you probably hate about travelling are warm reminders that I'm home
User currently offlinemusapapaya From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2004, 1093 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 14681 times:

Quoting IrishAyes (Reply 10):
Truthfully, I think the bigger loss for Star overall will be losing JJ to OneWorld in a few months, as that presence in Brasil is key.

But star is still the biggest alliance in the world, and with things like avicana and taca in south america...... can they not sort of hold their position?

of coz i cannot tell for sure, i have never been there and never understood how things work, but just thought i bring it up for discussion...



Lufthansa Group of Airlines
User currently offlinebobloblaw From United States of America, joined Jan 2012, 1725 posts, RR: 1
Reply 24, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 14611 times:

Quoting cv880 (Reply 18):

MEM is too close to IAH. We have one group of A.netters who think CLT should be closed and another think MEM should be a hub for another airline other than DL. Neither will happen.


25 martinrpo1 : I agree 100%. CLT is a valuable asset for the new AA, specially if they want to compete with DL's ATL.
26 WAC : CLT is a hub for US and is an inherited hub purely due to merging with US (AA as a couple of destinations out of CLT). Like with DL/NW AA/US will hav
27 ouboy79 : I really don't think you quite understand how well CLT has performed and how much of a factor it is. Who said anything about being a strong internati
28 Post contains images cv880 : Parker said that the flights would increase....even if not, AA is not going to let DL have the whole pie. MIA doesn't cut it for domestic connectivit
29 Post contains links MIflyer12 : Actually, CLT isn't particularly big as U.S. (the country, not airline) hubs go. In domestic O&D passenger counts it ranks #31, below Kansas City
30 AVLAirlineFreq : It will have even fewer resources if it de-hubs CLT.
31 WAC : Well it will have more aircraft if it de-hubs CLT to concentrate on other larger international hubs What I am saying is that CLT is like MEM where re
32 intermodal64 : Actually, I'm thinking German and surrounding European points of origin, with some degree of loyalty to STAR. (FRA and MUC are indeed my preferred co
33 usflyer msp : CLT has 255 daily mainline flights plus another 200 70/90-seater flights. That is more than every other hub except for DFW. It is a well established,
34 AVLAirlineFreq : And the other major difference between DL and MEM and US/AA and CLT is that the role of MEM as a hub was largely duplicated by other hubs in the DL n
35 TWA772LR : Maybe instead of starting a southeastern focus city in another city, how about UA try to muscle out US/AA from CLT?[Edited 2013-02-18 18:47:18]
36 Post contains images point2point : Yes, there will be a bit lost for the current *A with CLT eventually converting to OW. But the question going forward is how much does OW really need
37 flyguy89 : CLT-MUC has about 35 PDEW, not enough to support a daily flight on LH's smallest a/c, the A333 even with the MUC hub to support it, the flight needs
38 USAirALB : Maybe, but if you look at AA's track record in Germany you can't be so sure. I still think there is enough demand on CLT-MUC to support a nonstop fli
39 flyguy89 : Their recent track record is all the more reason for them not to forfeit it if they hope regain some scope in the German market. AA picking up the ro
40 LOWS : Yes, but it's also something like 80% connecting traffic.
41 jmc1975 : In the 21st Century, airlines don't just start mini-hubs hubs for kicks & giggles as they did in the 1990s (ie. HP in CMH or CO Lite in GSO). Any
42 AADC10 : With US' departure, the only domestic Star carrier in the USA will be UA. I doubt that UA will try to establish a hub just to connect points within t
43 LH422 : From the airport, maybe, but not from downtown Stuttgart. The train from Stuttgart main station to Frankfurt airport takes 72 minutes. That's only 45
44 jayunited : It seems like a lot of people think that UA needs a hub in the either the deep south or Florida my questions are where would this hub be located and w
45 YYZYYT : From my point of view (living near YYZ), CLT is a huge asset: in that it provides great conenctions from BUF (which sees more than a few cross-border
46 LHCVG : I think that's a pretty solid take on things. As was pointed out in a previous thread, the only real weakenss for Star is intra-SE/South, which US an
47 bobloblaw : Tell me where AA isnt getting their QSI fair share of O&D traffic and where they will be able to by shutting down CLT? So cut profitable service
48 AAIL86 : As much as it it would be great for my relatives in the CLT area to keep LH, I wonder about MUC-CLT. Contracts or not, the loss of a Star hub on the
49 wingnutmn : Wrong, it is the MSP of the new company CLT is no longer the crown jewel of a SE US hub. You are right though, it has a lot of corporate contracts an
50 cv880 : So what's Your point? ATL is about 75% connecting traffic.
51 flyguy89 : Meaning that CLT is a very small market when compared to other hubs. ATL may be 75% connecting, but it's almost twice the size of CLT and is one of t
52 cv880 : Total BS in some respects. SLC's O&D is much higher, due to the fact that it's the only major airport within hundreds of miles. RDU's O&D is
53 Post contains images AAIL86 : This is a classic case of how looking at the statistics alone can be tricky - remember the phase atrubuted to Mark Twain: "There are three kinds of l
54 USAirALB : Exactly. My intermediate family lives off of I-77 on Lake Norman, roughly 30 minutes or so north of CLT. To put it in perspective, they can make it t
55 flyguy89 : It's not. I don't really care about the leakage to other airports because, even if that was factored in, the Charlotte market is still very small com
56 SJUSXM : And yet the costs of the CLT operation are going to rise significantly with all of the US employees getting significant raises. Does that change the m
57 redzeppelin : SLC is particularly interesting, as it is both a fortress hub and the place that you drive to get a lower fare in the Intermountain area. I've met pe
58 Post contains images point2point : With this new triage of legacy carriers remaining in the U.S., I don't think now that it is possible for any of the three legacies to be strong in ev
59 cv880 : Please don't give Parker credit for something that He didn't do. It was done by acquisition of Piedmont by US and now by AA.
60 USAirALB : Kinda surprised there isn't a MSP-Germany nonstop. And DL also flies DTW-FRA with a 764.
61 commavia : CLT is a great hub - it is without a doubt the "silver medal" among hubs in the southeast U.S. Losing the connectivity it affords (via the extensive U
62 wingnutmn : Here is where your lost traffic is...CLT keeps domestic flights and internationals to LHR, BCN or MAD, and probably FRA. You lose most others because
63 airbazar : Regarding LH, this has been discussed at length in the other thread. It's my belief that US's FRA flights will be gone or at least severely reduced bu
64 flyguy89 : Where did I say that? There's most definitely a market, I'm just saying IMO it's 99% certain AA will be the one serving it. And I'm saying 99% will c
65 commavia : I doubt it - I fully expect AA will maintain a daily CLT-FRA (probably as a 763). There is a healthy local market between Germany and the southeast U
66 Post contains images point2point : You are correct, and oooops on me that I missed that. Anyways.... I would wonder if there is any substantive difference between the yields of the two
67 usairways85 : In getting back to the topic of Star without CLT, I think IAD will obsorb some of the Northeast/Midwest-Southeast traffic. IAD may also absorb some So
68 SESGDL : What? RDU's O&D is nowhere near the size of ATL's O&D, which is one of the largest O&D airports in the country. CLT's main function as a
69 cv880 : In terms of percentage of total traffic, it is way above ATL's as are most of the top 50, and that was what was being discussed. (I thought)
70 usflyer msp : US ran CLT-FRA alone for 13 years before it had any type of relationship with LH. LH's feed traffic was an added bonus but US does not need LH to mak
71 HPRamper : Er, no, the Northeast still has the Southeast beat handily, even if one includes Kentucky and Virginia in the Southeast region. But you are right abo
72 bobloblaw : To those who think CLT will be closed or cut substantially. Do you think AA will to the same to PHX? That is close or substantially cut? If so, you th
73 doug : Miami does not have a capacity issue and CLT will lose more than some Brazil flights to Miami. Time will tell
74 usflyer msp : You are right, MIA does not have a capacity issue but it does have a domestic feed issue (largely thanks to its airport costs). For the strong MIA O/
75 Post contains images point2point : flyguy my friend..... if you are 99% certain that CLT-FRA will remain with the new AA/US, then I guess that it's going to be that. I'll agree with yo
76 Post contains links airbazar : The contracts are German based companies, therefore they will stay with LH and *A. http://charlotteusa.com/business-info/international-business/germa
77 commavia : Agreeing the CLT-FRA capacity will be reduced, not that the CLT-FRA flight will be ended entirely.
78 Post contains images usflyer msp : No, it is their US subsidiaries which will remain with US/AA. Are they going to fly around the US doing their sales calls and product presentations o
79 cv880 : Obviously on a pt to pt route system, what You say is true, but the hub & spoke system was developed for the same reason--a cost saving measure o
80 MAH4546 : MIA doesn't have a domestic feed issue. AA runs an extensive domestic network out of MIA. There are some gaps to the smaller Northeast markets and MC
81 usairways85 : CLT's role in new AA/US will be different than it is now with US. US needs a reliever for PHL in terms of TA growth as well as additional options to
82 flyguy89 : Oh I absolutely agree with you, I've always said that in this industry, never say never, perhaps a better way to phrase it would have been that I'm a
83 airbazar : Hummm...let me quote what i said: Nonesense. If that was true they would be flying on AA today but they're not. They're flying on LH. LH's MUC-CLT a.
84 LHCVG : I think there is some confusion here. Based on airbazar's post after yours, I think the point was that LH to MUC is likely to stay, even if FRA on AA
85 flyguy89 : They're flying on LH because LH codeshares with US, they're both in *A and they can earn Dividend Miles. It doesn't really matter which airline the e
86 LHCVG : I think the kicker here is that LH holds the high cards in terms of the major contracts and money underwriting the route. With that giving the route
87 airbazar : But where's the point of sale for the rest of the passengers? Is it in the US or is it in Europe? LH has an equally massive hub in MUC and that's how
88 LHCVG : Well said, I think that is precisely the issue for CLT. Just like domestically, there are lots of other options when you're leaving (or entering) the
89 coairman : I think overall star could build up UA's IAD hub to increase frequencies, add new markets and upgauge aircraft to accommodate the loss of the CLT hub.
90 flyguy89 : They don't though, they're US contracts, but because of *A and the codesharing, it doesn't make a difference whether they fly LH or US. Even in a bes
91 LHCVG : As mentioned above, I wouldn't be so sure. Obviously I can't speak for them, but the German HQ folks may well have loyalty to LH, and then have their
92 flyguy89 : Certainly true, but then again how many will stay with AA, especially the ones that connect on to other German cities where they could just as easily
93 LHCVG : Maybe it is only that much as a percentage of seats/contracts, but those are most of the big players who make frequent use of CLT-Germany and CLT-MUC
94 FlyPNS1 : Problem with that is that IAD is not the preferred O&D airport for domestic travelers in the WAS market. IAD loses a lot of it's domestic traffic
95 Post contains images flyguy89 : 50/50 is an even split, they wouldn't have most of anything under such a scenario. If we were having this conversation 3-4 years ago I would agree wi
96 LHCVG : It's not if those are more lucrative ones...let's say US and LH split all the CLT-Germany down the middle, 50/50, and connections are a wash. Even so
97 flyguy89 : Why should that be the case? I see no reason why AA/US also wouldn't get some of those contracts, especially considering their more extensive flight
98 LHCVG : It's not about should or won't, it's that LH currently has the contracts for a handful of German companies with U.S. divisions or HQs in the CLT area
99 cv880 : A component of LH's decision may be the cargo yields with industrial import/exports concerning BMW, Siemens(Westinghouse) & Freightliner. Would n
100 strfyr51 : This is probably as is Should be. We all Knew that US Air was going to eventually leave Star after the UCAL merger United Senior Management will have
101 flyguy89 : Well that's pretty much what we're doing here lol, it's all speculative as we don't know who holds which contracts or the clauses of those contracts.
102 LHCVG : Cargo is another plus here, although AA would have to use either A330s or 777s because the 767 wouldn't carry enough cargo for what the cargo loads l
103 Sligo : I havent followed it closely, is DCA going to move security back to allow for connectivity between US' terminals at DCA? If so, upgauging DCA out of m
104 LHCVG : Very unlikely from anything I've seen or heard - I haven't seen any whiff that MWAA is interested in re-aligning the security arrangement for the pie
105 Post contains images Schweigend : I agree. UA and CO getting together reduced US's importance to *A, and USAirways was never part of the A++ transatlantic venture. In a way US is goin
106 LH422 : I'm wondering in which aspect CLT might be a larger hub than FRA. Another idea: Might we see one of the AA flights move to the OW hubs DUS or BER?
107 bobloblaw : DFW and ORD aren't much in the way of relievers for PHL due to location and JFK isn't due to the lack of a good domestic network. Someone has pointed
108 LHCVG : That's exactly what I'm thinking, leverage the new AB connectivity. Since O&D is fairly low anyway, might as well go to where you can get good OW
109 JasonCRH : Star Alliance is a marketing association, not an airline. If one of the member airlines wanted to start a hub, it would be up to the airline to determ
110 flyguy89 : For East-West traffic flows they absolutely are. ...and LH failed miserably at it. I doubt it, going from a market where O&D is in the 40's to si
111 LHCVG : True, but the double-ended connectivity might give you the pax to make it work. It would still draw a good bit of CLT TATL traffic since it would get
112 flyguy89 : Oh I understand the argument and I think it has a lot of merit, it's just that, given AB's recent "stability" issues, I'm not sure if we can reliably
113 LHCVG : Touche, sir, touche!
114 Post contains images point2point : There will have to be hubs.... because there is a lot of the U.S. that simply cannot go from one point to another without a connect somewhere along t
115 USAirALB : Yes, they did. Because it was flown with 747s.....20 something years ago. CLT was really just used as a stopover point on FRA-IAH. However, it stimul
116 flyguy89 : All valid points, I was simply trying to highlight the irrelevance in trying to make some sort of connection between LH's previous stint in the 90's
117 Sligo : That's unfortunate. A TSA re-design at DCA would be expensive yes, but would be more convenient for customers and a fraction of the cost of the cost
118 cv880 : OK, so does any of this factor in the enplanement costs per pax or the weather factor (which CHI is notorious for)? CLT is the lowest of the hubs per
119 Sligo : I meant the walk from the tip of North C to South C...
120 LHCVG : Yes exactly - 10 minutes' walk but with security easily a 30-45min. ordeal! Admittedly this most recent merger may change things though, if the combi
121 Post contains images point2point : I mentioned that these are other factors to be considered. However, I don't know how to put a percentage on this, but I can only think that O&D i
122 usairways85 : My point was that for US-Europe traffic US has relied more on CLT as a connection point. Whether that is DEN-CLT-Europe, MSY-CLT-Europe, or JAX-CLT-E
123 Post contains images point2point : I'm not quite sure about this, but isn't CLT-YYZ also dominated by *A? I don't know to what extent the relationship between US and AC is here, but is
124 USAirALB : US and AC do not codeshare, they never have. So US leaving star will have little to do with AC in CLT.
125 flyguy89 : I agree, 3-4 daily flights sounds about right for AA/US considering the size of the CLT hub, and ~2 daily flights is pretty much what AC offers in mo
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