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Lastest From DEN - South Terminal Development  
User currently offlinepoint2point From United States of America, joined Mar 2010, 2758 posts, RR: 1
Posted (1 year 7 months 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 4786 times:

A local blog, called DenverUrbanism, has posted some new updates on the ongoing South Terminal Development.

http://denverurbanism.com/

Good pix, and the last video that show the stages of the development I think is neat to watch.

New info includes moving the rail tracks to the west, leaving room for future expansion.

Enjoy.......

 

59 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineJAAlbert From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 1604 posts, RR: 1
Reply 1, posted (1 year 7 months 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 4504 times:

Always great to see public transportation extended to America's airports - but that is going to be one cold station in the winter!

I think the hotel size overpowers the roof of the original terminal.


User currently offlineOA412 From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 5279 posts, RR: 25
Reply 2, posted (1 year 7 months 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 4395 times:

It'll be nice to have the project finished, especially the rail project. Rail will definitely make commuting to and from DEN that much easier. Fortunately, construction at DEN hasn't really been all that disruptive, at least for the time being.

Quoting JAAlbert (Reply 1):
but that is going to be one cold station in the winter!

It shouldn't be too bad. Denver doesn't get all that cold in winter. You can usually count on a high in the upper 30's or 40's, and many winter days reach into the high 50's and even sometimes into the low 60's. There should only be a few days a year where waiting outside for the train will be unbearable.

Quoting JAAlbert (Reply 1):
think the hotel size overpowers the roof of the original terminal.

I agree, and that is absolutely my biggest concern with the project. While I am thrilled about the extension of the light rail system to the airport, the hotel overpowers the original terminal and just ruins the overall design, IMHO.



Hughes Airwest - Top Banana In The West
User currently offlineMaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 17516 posts, RR: 45
Reply 3, posted (1 year 7 months 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 4336 times:

Quoting OA412 (Reply 2):
Rail will definitely make commuting to and from DEN that much easier

Is it going to be nonstop? Or even fast? Putting even a few stops on a rail line between DIA and downtown Denver is going to make it take prohibitively long.



E pur si muove -Galileo
User currently offlineDesertJets From United States of America, joined Feb 2000, 7780 posts, RR: 16
Reply 4, posted (1 year 7 months 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 4270 times:

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 3):
Is it going to be nonstop? Or even fast? Putting even a few stops on a rail line between DIA and downtown Denver is going to make it take prohibitively long.

The new line will have a total of 7 stations.... so 5 stops between downtown and DIA. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/East_Corridor_%28RTD%29

Plus this east corridor line will be using EMU commuter trains instead of the light rail cars on the existing RTD light rail lines.



Stop drop and roll will not save you in hell. --- seen on a church marque in rural Virginia
User currently offlineFriendlySkies From United States of America, joined Aug 2004, 4106 posts, RR: 5
Reply 5, posted (1 year 7 months 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 4197 times:

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 3):
Is it going to be nonstop? Or even fast? Putting even a few stops on a rail line between DIA and downtown Denver is going to make it take prohibitively long.

It will be no worse than any other US (or international for that matter) rail connection to a major airport, and provide a huge improvement over the current bus service (which takes about an hour to downtown Denver as-is).


User currently offlineFWAERJ From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 3756 posts, RR: 2
Reply 6, posted (1 year 7 months 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 4197 times:

Quoting DesertJets (Reply 4):
Plus this east corridor line will be using EMU commuter trains instead of the light rail cars on the existing RTD light rail lines.

IIRC, Hyundai Rotem (owned by the Hyundai-Kia Automotive Group and supplier of SEPTA's latest EMU units) will supply these trainsets.

Much like other commuter trains, the shells will be built overseas (in this case, South Korea) and shipped to the US for outfitting with systems and interiors to comply with Buy American Act rules for transit agencies.

[Edited 2013-02-19 09:39:38]


"Did he really need the triple bypass? Or was it the miles?"
User currently offlineMIflyer12 From United States of America, joined Feb 2013, 1039 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (1 year 7 months 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 4086 times:

Quoting JAAlbert (Reply 1):
Always great to see public transportation extended to America's airports - but that is going to be one cold station in the winter!

There's little reason to have people wait outside at all - ATL's car rental train shows how it can be done. (ATL makes the mistake of having people outside in a very short street crossing between terminal and train station, but waiting is done inside.)


User currently offlineOA412 From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 5279 posts, RR: 25
Reply 8, posted (1 year 7 months 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 4052 times:

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 3):
Is it going to be nonstop? Or even fast? Putting even a few stops on a rail line between DIA and downtown Denver is going to make it take prohibitively long.

It's supposed to be 35 minutes from Union Station to DEN, which should be quite a bit better than driving downtown to DEN during high traffic periods.



Hughes Airwest - Top Banana In The West
User currently offlinerampart From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 3139 posts, RR: 6
Reply 9, posted (1 year 7 months 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 3989 times:

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 3):
Is it going to be nonstop? Or even fast? Putting even a few stops on a rail line between DIA and downtown Denver is going to make it take prohibitively long.

People still use trains to SEA, EWR, ORD, SFO, ATL, and DCA. Maybe the number of stops deters people, but doubt those kind of people would use mass transit anyhow.

-Rampart


User currently offlineSSTeve From United States of America, joined Dec 2011, 706 posts, RR: 1
Reply 10, posted (1 year 7 months 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 3916 times:

Quoting rampart (Reply 9):
People still use trains to SEA

And boy is it slow, but a helluva lot cheaper than a taxi.


User currently offlineMaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 17516 posts, RR: 45
Reply 11, posted (1 year 7 months 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 3886 times:

Quoting rampart (Reply 9):
People still use trains to SEA, EWR, ORD, SFO, ATL, and DCA. Maybe the number of stops deters people, but doubt those kind of people would use mass transit anyhow.

They're all a heck of a lot closer to downtown than DEN, and in most of those cases, 'downtown' is a lot more concentrated than in DEN.



E pur si muove -Galileo
User currently offlineFriendlySkies From United States of America, joined Aug 2004, 4106 posts, RR: 5
Reply 12, posted (1 year 7 months 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 3822 times:

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 11):
They're all a heck of a lot closer to downtown than DEN

I'm not sure I understand your argument. The train will take 35 min, which is little slower than it takes to drive with no traffic. In even a little traffic, the train will be as fast if not faster than driving, and one heck of a lot cheaper if you are not just picking up/dropping off. Are you saying Denver should not provide a long-term public transit solution to it's major airport because some people are not patient enough to sit on a train for half an hour?


User currently offlineMaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 17516 posts, RR: 45
Reply 13, posted (1 year 7 months 6 days ago) and read 3713 times:

Quoting FriendlySkies (Reply 12):
I'm not sure I understand your argument.

I'm saying don't be like IAD, where the Silver line will never reach and once it does it's going to take a month of sundays to get there from DC



E pur si muove -Galileo
User currently offlineDesertJets From United States of America, joined Feb 2000, 7780 posts, RR: 16
Reply 14, posted (1 year 7 months 6 days ago) and read 3681 times:

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 13):
I'm saying don't be like IAD, where the Silver line will never reach and once it does it's going to take a month of sundays to get there from DC

A ride from Metro Center to Dulles on the metro would be painfully long trip to endure -- and try doing that during the evening rush. But I've said many times that the stop at IAD is a minor side benefit of the silver line and I never saw it as a means of providing great rail service there. It was always more for providing better mass transit in the Tysons/Dulles corridor plain and simple.


That said the RTD east corridor line is designed to serve the airport, with a few select intermediate stops along the way (including at a new light rail line along the I-225 corridor). I think in this case RTD is doing it right.



Stop drop and roll will not save you in hell. --- seen on a church marque in rural Virginia
User currently offlineseatback From United States of America, joined Mar 2002, 767 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (1 year 7 months 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 3641 times:

Quoting OA412 (Reply 2):
It shouldn't be too bad. Denver doesn't get all that cold in winter. You can usually count on a high in the upper 30's or 40's, and many winter days reach into the high 50's and even sometimes into the low 60's. There should only be a few days a year where waiting outside for the train will be unbearable.

Well then I must be hitting the few days each year when it's so cold that you can see ice crystals floating in the air.

As a weekly traveller into DEN, I think the airport is a mess. The rental car operations are terrible and seem extremely inefficient.


User currently offlineairbazar From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 8386 posts, RR: 10
Reply 16, posted (1 year 7 months 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 3624 times:

As I understand it this is a commuter line in and out of Union Station, built predominantly for people commuting in and out of Denver daily. The main goal of this line was not to be an airport train, or am I wrong? Extending it to DIA was a good idea, IMO. Two birds with one stone, as they say. It's even better that the last stop before the airport is at a Park and Ride which may offer a better and cheaper alternative for long term parking.

User currently offlineFriendlySkies From United States of America, joined Aug 2004, 4106 posts, RR: 5
Reply 17, posted (1 year 7 months 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 3590 times:

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 13):
I'm saying don't be like IAD, where the Silver line will never reach and once it does it's going to take a month of sundays to get there from DC

And it isn't if you looked at the plan. The train will depart from Union Station in downtown Denver (main transport hub for metro Denver), make a few stops, and end up under the new hotel right in front of the DIA terminal.


User currently offlineMaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 17516 posts, RR: 45
Reply 18, posted (1 year 7 months 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 3576 times:

Quoting seatback (Reply 15):
As a weekly traveller into DEN, I think the airport is a mess.

Other than one of the nation's worst TSA setups and terrible concessions I've never had any problem with DEN, but I haven't had to deal with rental cars much either.

Quoting DesertJets (Reply 14):
That said the RTD east corridor line is designed to serve the airport, with a few select intermediate stops along the way (including at a new light rail line along the I-225 corridor). I think in this case RTD is doing it right.

I'm not sure it works in such a spread out city like Denver with not much of anything but the airport along the route but it'll be interesting to see how it works.



E pur si muove -Galileo
User currently offlineseatback From United States of America, joined Mar 2002, 767 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (1 year 7 months 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 3554 times:

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 18):
Other than one of the nation's worst TSA setups and terrible concessions I've never had any problem with DEN

Oh, you shouldn't have gotten me started on the concessions. Terminal C's concessions are terrible, offering little selection. However, I will say using the TSA precheck line takes me about 40 seconds to clear security.

BTW, I can't stand that Delta doesn't have a SkyClub there.


User currently offlineytib From United States of America, joined Nov 2004, 574 posts, RR: 1
Reply 20, posted (1 year 7 months 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 3537 times:

Quoting seatback (Reply 19):
Oh, you shouldn't have gotten me started on the concessions. Terminal C's concessions are terrible, offering little selection.

What would you like to see there on Concourse C.


User currently offlineseatback From United States of America, joined Mar 2002, 767 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (1 year 7 months 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 3513 times:

Quoting ytib (Reply 20):
What would you like to see there on Concourse C.

Well, one idea would be to put a Chipotle in, since DEN is their hometown. A Chili's would be nice too.


User currently offlineMaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 17516 posts, RR: 45
Reply 22, posted (1 year 7 months 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 3484 times:

Quoting seatback (Reply 19):
Oh, you shouldn't have gotten me started on the concessions.

They've actually improved a lot in the last five +/- years. The area around the airport, however, hasn't improved as much.



E pur si muove -Galileo
User currently offlineCaspian27 From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 382 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (1 year 7 months 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 3157 times:

Quoting seatback (Reply 15):
Well then I must be hitting the few days each year when it's so cold that you can see ice crystals floating in the air.

As a weekly traveller into DEN, I think the airport is a mess. The rental car operations are terrible and seem extremely inefficient.

I am a Denver native and I can't think of one time it was so cold that I actually saw ice crystals in the air. I didn't even have to put on my jacket to do pre/post flight inspections most days so far this winter.

I also don't understand your comment about the rental cars. This is a very subjective statement you make with no real examples. I personally don't think it's any more inefficient than most other airports. What is efficient in your mind? Having a consolidated rental car facility like PHX?



Meanwhile, somewhere 35,000 ft above your head...
User currently offlineantoniemey From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 1572 posts, RR: 4
Reply 24, posted (1 year 7 months 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 3061 times:

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 18):
Other than one of the nation's worst TSA setups and terrible concessions I've never had any problem with DEN, but I haven't had to deal with rental cars much either.

From what I've seen, it's the perfect set-up from a ramp perspective in a large airport... straight lines of parking spaces everywhere, no trying to cram two planes into a corner or any of that silliness that many airports have.

From a passenger perspective, boy oh boy could they have done better with setting up Security. Spend a little more money to move it out of the middle of everything, PLEASE. The food in the main terminal seems to be a pretty good assortment and amount... Concourses do seem to lack much in the way of that, though.



Make something Idiot-proof, and the Universe will make a more inept idiot.
User currently offlineairfrnt From United States of America, joined Jul 2004, 2826 posts, RR: 42
Reply 25, posted (1 year 7 months 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 3138 times:

There is extra room in the rail facility for a eventual direct line to the rental car area as well. In terms of security, it's well worth remembering that DEN got really screwed by the security changes after 9/11. I was there when the airport opened, and it felt radically different with a much smaller security line up, trees and greenery everywhere. It feels very sterile now, especially after they removed the fountains.

The manager of the airport wants to change this (and I have to admit that I am surprised to see someone on A.net complain about this), but for the most part, the attitude of travelers and the city council has been, if it's not broken, why fix it?

That being said, I am a very frequent traveler out of DEN, and out of the airports that I am commonly in - DEN, LAX, SJC, ATL, SAN, BKK, ICN, and MSP, DEN has by far the shortest security lines. The TSA pre line there an get insanely crowded in the morning, but I don't think I have waited more then 10 minutes in line in security in the last three years there.

As far as this project goes, I am still disappointed on the top speed of the train to the airport. My favorite airport train services are BKK and MSP. MSP isn't all that fast, unless you compare it to the main route to the airport from Minneapolis, which is not a freeway, but the light rail units are considerably nicer then what DEN will have. BKK on the other hand has express service on a very fast train to a airport (I feel, but have never looked) a similar distance from the city core.


User currently offlinePSU.DTW.SCE From United States of America, joined Jan 2002, 7591 posts, RR: 27
Reply 26, posted (1 year 7 months 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 3102 times:

Quoting FriendlySkies (Reply 12):
I'm not sure I understand your argument. The train will take 35 min, which is little slower than it takes to drive with no traffic. In even a little traffic, the train will be as fast if not faster than driving, and one heck of a lot cheaper if you are not just picking up/dropping off. Are you saying Denver should not provide a long-term public transit solution to it's major airport because some people are not patient enough to sit on a train for half an hour?

The train to DEN is a huge benefit for passengers headed directly to downtown or visiting someone within a reasonable distance of a stop. The Denver metro area is a rapidly growing area with a massive influx of younger people. Many live in the downtown area, and there is sizeable element of leisure travel and visitors that may not need a car. The train is not an end-all, be-all to replace rental cars which will still be very much necessary to get around the region and the state.

Quoting seatback (Reply 15):
Well then I must be hitting the few days each year when it's so cold that you can see ice crystals floating in the air.

As a weekly traveller into DEN, I think the airport is a mess. The rental car operations are terrible and seem extremely inefficient.

Yep, really only a handful of bitter cold days per year. There was a big cold snap back in January where it barely got above zero for a few days. Then another one in Feb. In between there have been plenty of days in the 50's and 60s.
With the lower humidity, the cold in Denver feels a lot less cold than on the East Coast. A few weeks ago I was unbelievably cold waiting for the train at the DCA Metro station, which is outside.

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 18):
Other than one of the nation's worst TSA setups and terrible concessions I've never had any problem with DEN, but I haven't had to deal with rental cars much either.

Agreed. The massive TSA checkpoint can be horrific during peak times. For as bad at can be, at least they try to make it work.

Quoting seatback (Reply 19):
BTW, I can't stand that Delta doesn't have a SkyClub there.

Agreed.

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 22):
They've actually improved a lot in the last five +/- years. The area around the airport, however, hasn't improved as much.

The accomodations around the airport are significantly better than they were about 10-15 years ago. There used to be nothing out there off Tower Rd now where there that whole area of hotels and restaurants. There was not much either around the Pena Blvd / I-70 interchange other than what used to be a Holiday Inn. Now there are multiple hotels there too and restaurants. Plus that whole development east of Pena Blvd which the shopping center and grocery store.

Quoting Caspian27 (Reply 23):
I also don't understand your comment about the rental cars. This is a very subjective statement you make with no real examples. I personally don't think it's any more inefficient than most other airports. What is efficient in your mind? Having a consolidated rental car facility like PHX?

The rental car set-up is annoying, but in reality no worse than PHX or BWI. With the amount of money they put into DEN from the beginning, I'm surprised the never built a centralized facility, or initially had a train connect to offsite facilities. It would at least have been nice if you didn't have to go all the way to the outer lanes for the pick-up area.

With multiple factors including distance from the city, distance of off-site rental car facility, TSA checkpoint, and the underground train you have to factor in a signficant amount of time in advance of departure. Airports like DFW, DTW, LGA, ORD, STL, etc can all be navigated much quicker.


User currently offlineseatback From United States of America, joined Mar 2002, 767 posts, RR: 0
Reply 27, posted (1 year 7 months 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 3128 times:

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 22):
I am a Denver native and I can't think of one time it was so cold that I actually saw ice crystals in the air. I didn't even have to put on my jacket to do pre/post flight inspections most days so far this winter.



I was a long time Denver resident too...love the city and the area. However, back in January, as I waited for 20 minutes for the National shuttle bus to pick us up, I could see pretty, ice crystals floating in the air. It was bitter cold. During the course of my 20 minutes I saw no less than 20 huge buses, each from different rental companies picking up their customers. Hugely inefficient and not very environmentally-friendly.

Quoting Caspian27 (Reply 23):
I also don't understand your comment about the rental cars. This is a very subjective statement you make with no real examples. I personally don't think it's any more inefficient than most other airports. What is efficient in your mind? Having a consolidated rental car facility like PHX?



You're right, subjective, but I'll be you that most renters crossing four lanes of traffic with their luggage and standing on an island, especially when it is cold or rainy would probably agree with me. My point is that it takes me a full hour from getting off my airplane (in terminal C) to get over to the rental area which I think is too long. And you're right, many other airports don't do it well either.

Quoting PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 26):
Yep, really only a handful of bitter cold days per year. There was a big cold snap back in January where it barely got above zero for a few days.



I'm there every Monday morning, so I hit it during that cold snap.

Quoting PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 26):
With the amount of money they put into DEN from the beginning, I'm surprised the never built a centralized facility, or initially had a train connect to offsite facilities. It would at least have been nice if you didn't have to go all the way to the outer lanes for the pick-up area.



That's my point. Years ago with tons of open land, you would have thought that the planners would have developed an airport that maximizes efficiencies (i.e rental cars.) In my opinion, SFO does it right. You catch the train right from the terminal and takes you right inside the central rental car terminal.


User currently offlinebeechtobus From United States of America, joined Nov 2011, 313 posts, RR: 0
Reply 28, posted (1 year 7 months 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 2933 times:

Quoting JAAlbert (Reply 1):
Always great to see public transportation extended to America's airports - but that is going to be one cold station in the winter!

Agreed, I really don't understand why the platforms werent placed underground or at the very least that train shed wasnt extended to cover the entire platform. While Denver is pleasant much of the year, there is often high winds, snow, rain, dust, occasional blistering heat all on the same day. Not really but, yes, weather can get quite inclement there, I have my doubts that those shelters will suffice year round.

Quoting seatback (Reply 15):
As a weekly traveller into DEN, I think the airport is a mess. The rental car operations are terrible and seem extremely inefficient.

Amen. However, consolidated car rental facilities seem to be becoming the trend, so hopefully Denver hops on board and we see one here within the next 5 years or so.

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 11):
They're all a heck of a lot closer to downtown than DEN, and in most of those cases, 'downtown' is a lot more concentrated than in DEN.
Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 18):
I'm not sure it works in such a spread out city like Denver with not much of anything but the airport along the route but it'll be interesting to see how it works.

While Denver is quite spread out (less so than most western cities, but more than east coast and midwest cites), the city almost is a hybrid of western/sun belt style sprawl in its suburbs, and eastern
(midwest anyhow) desity in its core. The RTD(Denver's public transportation agency) has been building its rail lines along the busiest corridors in the city and suburbs. Also there has been an active push for residential development downtown (denverinfill.com is a great reference) and for transit oriented development along its rail corridors. Denver really is doing its transit construction right, in both places that currently need mass transit, and in promoting future mass transit development along lines that arent currently densley populated. I think that in 20 years or less we will see a Denver that works and lives very well with its mass transit and that is a model for other cities. An airport link will a natual and intregal part of this.

Quoting antoniemey (Reply 24):
From a passenger perspective, boy oh boy could they have done better with setting up Security. Spend a little more money to move it out of the middle of everything, PLEASE.
Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 18):
Other than one of the nation's worst TSA setups and terrible concessions

Im still trying to figure out what is so bad about the TSA setup in Denver, it is definitely the quickest security of the major US airports ive experienced. It is sad that most of the main floor of the 'Great hall' is dedicated to TSA but its a pre 9/11 airport in a post 9/11 world. However, I think given the circumstances, the location of the expanded secuity lanes dont seem to impede the flow of the terminal at all. Just not seeing the problem compaired with other airports.

I do agree about the consessions here. The regular fast food suspects mixed with a couple non-chain (that in general are very medeorcre) and not much beyond the average airport gift stores and news stands should not suffice for what is becoming a world class airport. Maverick is right though that they have gotten much better, it was pretty dismal 5 years ago.


User currently offlineMaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 17516 posts, RR: 45
Reply 29, posted (1 year 7 months 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 2901 times:

Quoting PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 26):
The accomodations around the airport are significantly better than they were about 10-15 years ago. There used to be nothing out there off Tower Rd now where there that whole area of hotels and restaurants

It's better, but it's still not great. There are a zillion hotels and a Village Inn, and a couple other restaurants of that level, but definitely not a place anyone would want to hang out given a choice.

Quoting beechtobus (Reply 28):
it is definitely the quickest security of the major US airports ive experienced

When do you pass through it? Without an airline badge or TSA Precheck it's consistently the longest I experience on a regular basis.



E pur si muove -Galileo
User currently offlinePSU.DTW.SCE From United States of America, joined Jan 2002, 7591 posts, RR: 27
Reply 30, posted (1 year 7 months 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 2879 times:

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 29):
It's better, but it's still not great. There are a zillion hotels and a Village Inn, and a couple other restaurants of that level, but definitely not a place anyone would want to hang out given a choice.

No one ever wants to hang-out in hotels & restaurants near any airport. Every major airport has this type of development nearby - ORD, DFW, DTW, STL, ATL, etc. They are all somewhat depressing and a haven somewhat depressed flight crews road warriors, or leisure traveling using the stay-park-n'fly option.


User currently offlineairbazar From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 8386 posts, RR: 10
Reply 31, posted (1 year 7 months 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 2878 times:

Quoting PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 26):
The train is not an end-all, be-all to replace rental cars which will still be very much necessary to get around the region and the state.

But it will give plenty of people the option to rent a car in the city and bypass the ridiculous airport charges  
Quoting PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 26):
The rental car set-up is annoying, but in reality no worse than PHX or BWI. With the amount of money they put into DEN from the beginning, I'm surprised the never built a centralized facility, or initially had a train connect to offsite facilities.

  

Quoting seatback (Reply 27):
In my opinion, SFO does it right. You catch the train right from the terminal and takes you right inside the central rental car terminal.

MCO does it right. SFO is a nice bandaid. In a new airpor with so much available land there's no reason why one should have to leave the terminal to rent a car, and walk any further than the parking garage across from the main terminal. Whoever agreed to that model for DEN should have been fired.


User currently offlineseatback From United States of America, joined Mar 2002, 767 posts, RR: 0
Reply 32, posted (1 year 7 months 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 2853 times:

Quoting beechtobus (Reply 28):
I do agree about the consessions here. The regular fast food suspects mixed with a couple non-chain (that in general are very medeorcre) and not much beyond the average airport gift stores and news stands should not suffice for what is becoming a world class airport.

     

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 29):
Without an airline badge or TSA Precheck it's consistently the longest I experience on a regular basis.

Agreed. Although there's no one ever in the precheck line, so it's the easiest precheck I've seen.

Quoting DTW.SCE" class="quote" target="_blank">PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 30):
ORD, DFW, DTW, STL, ATL, etc. They are all somewhat depressing and a haven somewhat depressed flight crews road warriors, or leisure traveling using the stay-park-n'fly option.

DFW's North airport exit has some very nice chain and independent restaurants.

Quoting airbazar (Reply 31):
MCO does it right. SFO is a nice bandaid. In a new airpor with so much available land there's no reason why one should have to leave the terminal to rent a car, and walk any further than the parking garage across from the main terminal. Whoever agreed to that model for DEN should have been fired.

This was my original point. With all of the land, they could have designed it another way.


User currently offlinepoint2point From United States of America, joined Mar 2010, 2758 posts, RR: 1
Reply 33, posted (1 year 7 months 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 2823 times:

Quoting beechtobus (Reply 28):
Im still trying to figure out what is so bad about the TSA setup in Denver, it is definitely the quickest security of the major US airports ive experienced. It is sad that most of the main floor of the 'Great hall' is dedicated to TSA but its a pre 9/11 airport in a post 9/11 world. However, I think given the circumstances, the location of the expanded secuity lanes dont seem to impede the flow of the terminal at all. Just not seeing the problem compaired with other airports.

The several times that I've had to go through the TSA at DEN, it's either been a breeze -one or two people ahead of me in the line, or a pain in the *ss - maybe some twenty people ahead of me in the line. I don't know what variable controls this, other maybe than the number of TSA workers that show up on a given day.

And yes, it's unfortunate that the "Great Hall" had to be converted to TSA. The current airport manager has stated several time in the last few years that this is something that she would like to address, and to return the "Great Hall" to it's intended use, which was to be a public gathering place. But at least for right now...... there just isn't any other space that DEN could use to process TSA.

Which now got me thinking of the logistics here. Last year, 2012, DEN had slightly over 53M pax in total. Using 2010 numbers (the latest available that I can find) the airport consisted of 53% O&D traffic, and 47% connecting. That would bring us to just over 28M pax O&D. Next, assuming half of the O&D are arriving, and half are departing, that puts departing pax at roughly 14M per year, and dividing this per 365, we get roughly 38,500 departing pax daily. Now..... assuming that the bulk of TSA will operate from 5am to about 12am, that's 19 hours per day, and that will get us to the TSA processing 2030 pax per hour. Taking this one step further, if we calculate the hourly pax rate into minutes, we get a total of about 34 pax per minute processed by the TSA at DEN during reasonable operational hours. And this isn't counting maybe a number of connect pax that may leave the secure area between flights and then need to re-enter.

So..... at least 34 pax per minute continuing for some 19 hours per day........ I think that this is a daunting challenge for any airport. This is a spacial difficulty as well. So.... with that, hopefully something can be worked out at the airport so that the "Great Hall" can be returned to its intended use..... but for now..... that's all DEN has for its TSA processing, other than the walkway area that's in advance of Concourse A.

 



[Edited 2013-02-20 11:37:46]

User currently offlineMaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 17516 posts, RR: 45
Reply 34, posted (1 year 7 months 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 2795 times:

Quoting PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 30):
No one ever wants to hang-out in hotels & restaurants near any airport

Right but the idea was for the area to become more developed area with a major community development just south of DEN...certainly much more so than it is today.



E pur si muove -Galileo
User currently offlinePSU.DTW.SCE From United States of America, joined Jan 2002, 7591 posts, RR: 27
Reply 35, posted (1 year 7 months 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 2749 times:

Quoting seatback (Reply 32):
DFW's North airport exit has some very nice chain and independent restaurants.

Yes, although the hotels are very spartan in comparison to much nicer properties in downtown Dallas or Fort Worth or other surrounding areas. Airport hotels, even the Westin, Sheraton, and Marriott are just that, hotels near the airport.

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 34):
Right but the idea was for the area to become more developed area with a major community development just south of DEN...certainly much more so than it is today.

Isn't that what Green Valley Ranch really became, albeit that is almost all residential with a few commerical shopping area.


User currently offlinepoint2point From United States of America, joined Mar 2010, 2758 posts, RR: 1
Reply 36, posted (1 year 7 months 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 2733 times:

Quoting DTW.SCE" class="quote" target="_blank">PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 30):
No one ever wants to hang-out in hotels & restaurants near any airport. Every major airport has this type of development nearby - ORD, DFW, DTW, STL, ATL, etc. They are all somewhat depressing and a haven somewhat depressed flight crews road warriors, or leisure traveling using the stay-park-n'fly option.

Maybe the new 10 story hotel, along with the new public space and the shiny new train terminal that's being built now will change people's perceptions about the depressing hotel areas around the airports? Well, at least this development is right at the airport, so.........

Just another curious fact here that I found about DEN, but it seems that DEN has entered into NK's Top 10 ranked stations (it's ranked at #10) in terms of amount of weekly seats offered by NK. I still consider myself shocked by the NK announcement to enter DEN at all, considering the epic turf battle between UA, WN and F9 here, along with all of the other carriers that want a piece of DEN, and in some 10 months time NK is now up to some 16.5K weekly seats.

http://centreforaviation.com/analysi...al-performance-remains-solid-98403

 

[Edited 2013-02-20 12:23:10]

User currently offlinePSU.DTW.SCE From United States of America, joined Jan 2002, 7591 posts, RR: 27
Reply 37, posted (1 year 7 months 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 2712 times:

Quoting point2point (Reply 36):
Maybe the new 10 story hotel, along with the new public space and the shiny new train terminal that's being built now will change people's perceptions about the depressing hotel areas around the airports? Well, at least this development is right at the airport, so.........

I'm not necessarily refering to the hotel right in the airport terminal itself (e.g. DTW- Westin, DFW-Hyatt, new DEN hotel) but the tracts of hotels and chain that cover the surrounding adjacent areas to the airport. Many of these hotels are tired, worn, or nowhere near as nice as other properties either in the downtown areas or nicer suburbs and business areas.


User currently offlineDesertJets From United States of America, joined Feb 2000, 7780 posts, RR: 16
Reply 38, posted (1 year 7 months 5 days ago) and read 2663 times:

Quoting DTW.SCE" class="quote" target="_blank">PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 37):
I'm not necessarily refering to the hotel right in the airport terminal itself (e.g. DTW- Westin, DFW-Hyatt, new DEN hotel) but the tracts of hotels and chain that cover the surrounding adjacent areas to the airport. Many of these hotels are tired, worn, or nowhere near as nice as other properties either in the downtown areas or nicer suburbs and business areas.

Nobody ever stayed near the airport because those were great properties for sure, unless they really love eating at Applebee's or love the breakfast at the Hampton Inn. Though I am sort of curious what the City of Denver will eventually achieve with the development they are planning in the area. Definitely an interesting mix of residential/commercial/industrial. Having the east corridor stop smack in the middle of it makes it more desirable for folks to live out there and work downtown.


As for the car rental issue -- I assume a consolidated facility is in the works to replace all those smaller lots along Pena Blvd?

Quoting airbazar (Reply 31):
MCO does it right. SFO is a nice bandaid. In a new airpor with so much available land there's no reason why one should have to leave the terminal to rent a car, and walk any further than the parking garage across from the main terminal. Whoever agreed to that model for DEN should have been fired.

You raise a good point, especially with a clean sheet design airport like DEN. While having a nice car rental facility immediately adjacent to the terminal would be nice I suspect there are several reasons why you don't see this. One is that the real estate is just far too valuable and expensive to build such a facility. Second, and this may be the bigger one, is reducing congestion in the central terminal area. By having the rental cars out of that area must make a huge difference.



Stop drop and roll will not save you in hell. --- seen on a church marque in rural Virginia
User currently offlineMaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 17516 posts, RR: 45
Reply 39, posted (1 year 7 months 5 days ago) and read 2663 times:

Quoting PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 35):

Isn't that what Green Valley Ranch really became, albeit that is almost all residential with a few commerical shopping area.

No it was a development planned sorta east of Tower Road and south of Pena. I forget the name though...it was probably cut short by the housing crisis.



E pur si muove -Galileo
User currently offlinepoint2point From United States of America, joined Mar 2010, 2758 posts, RR: 1
Reply 40, posted (1 year 7 months 5 days ago) and read 2652 times:

Quoting DTW.SCE" class="quote" target="_blank">PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 37):
'm not necessarily refering to the hotel right in the airport terminal itself (e.g. DTW- Westin, DFW-Hyatt, new DEN hotel) but the tracts of hotels and chain that cover the surrounding adjacent areas to the airport. Many of these hotels are tired, worn, or nowhere near as nice as other properties either in the downtown areas or nicer suburbs and business areas.

I haven't been to the other areas that you've mentioned a couple of posts above, and will take your view on those.

However, if at DEN you're referring to the area along Tower Road, well..... I don't think it's that bad. At least that area has a kept up look to it (and it's not even that old), and I admit that it may be considered bland and doesn't really have anything interesting. But..... I've been there recently visiting guests, and I don't think that the Tower Road area anyway is depressing, or tired, or worn, or quite anything along those lines. And I have to admit that even the older hotels near Stapleton that were built in the those days are still pretty well kept up, and again, maybe bland or uninteresting is about as far as negativity goes to describe them, but I think that somehow they maintain a proper appearance.

 


User currently offlinerampart From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 3139 posts, RR: 6
Reply 41, posted (1 year 7 months 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 2538 times:

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 11):
They're all a heck of a lot closer to downtown than DEN, and in most of those cases, 'downtown' is a lot more concentrated than in DEN.

Seattle seemed like a long train ride, but I was happy to take that rather than a taxi. I think because of the lack of density the ride to DEN will be fast. I'd MUCH prefer that over an extended taxi or shuttle bus, which is getting expensive at that point.

Quoting seatback (Reply 15):
As a weekly traveller into DEN, I think the airport is a mess. The rental car operations are terrible and seem extremely inefficient.

I love DEN as an airport, but I have to agree with you on the rental car operations. Easily DEN's worst planned element. I'm ALWAYS frustrated by the time it takes to wait for a bus, get there, and poke along the process of retrieving a reserved car. Given the wide open nature of the airport, and given a high demand for rental cars (I would guess higher than most airports?) I would think there was room to insert a rental car garage much closer to terminal. If it would need to be moved out as a terminal expands, well, build that into the plan to extend it out.

Quoting seatback (Reply 27):
I was a long time Denver resident too...love the city and the area. However, back in January, as I waited for 20 minutes for the National shuttle bus to pick us up, I could see pretty, ice crystals floating in the air. It was bitter cold. During the course of my 20 minutes I saw no less than 20 huge buses, each from different rental companies picking up their customers. Hugely inefficient and not very environmentally-friendly.

I was there for that cold snap, too. It was brutal. I took the transfer flight to COS, where rather than messing with DEN's rental cars shuttle busses, I walked across the curb from the COS terminal entry to pick up my rental car (and saved $100 on a weekly rental for the same car). It was still freaking cold!

Quoting airbazar (Reply 31):
But it will give plenty of people the option to rent a car in the city and bypass the ridiculous airport charges

I may try that.

-Rampart


User currently offlinebeechtobus From United States of America, joined Nov 2011, 313 posts, RR: 0
Reply 42, posted (1 year 7 months 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 2453 times:

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 29):
When do you pass through it? Without an airline badge or TSA Precheck it's consistently the longest I experience on a regular basis.
Quoting point2point (Reply 33):
The several times that I've had to go through the TSA at DEN, it's either been a breeze -one or two people ahead of me in the line, or a pain in the *ss - maybe some twenty people ahead of me in the line. I don't know what variable controls this, other maybe than the number of TSA workers that show up on a given day.

I do tend to go through in the evening (after 8 or so) and usually seems to be a breeze compared to other major airports I usually go through (LAX, ORD, FLL T4, SEA). I am usually probably after the rush, granted. Also the A-bridge security always seems pretty bad so I usually avoid that. I think point 2 point is right that any delays are a result of the particular TSA agents or how many there are there at a given time and not so much the set up of the screening areas.

Quoting PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 26):
The rental car set-up is annoying, but in reality no worse than PHX or BWI. With the amount of money they put into DEN from the beginning, I'm surprised the never built a centralized facility, or initially had a train connect to offsite facilities.

Were consolidated rental car facilities even around when DIA was being designed and built in the mid to late 80s and early 90s? I don't remember these coming on the scene before the early 2000s and definitely haven't been the norm at large airports until recently. It for sure should have been done but I just don't think the concept even existed then.


User currently offlineslcdeltarumd11 From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 3471 posts, RR: 0
Reply 43, posted (1 year 7 months 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 2397 times:

Quoting seatback (Reply 15):
As a weekly traveller into DEN, I think the airport is a mess. The rental car operations are terrible and seem extremely inefficient.

Its probably the slowest airport in america both for flyers to get from plane to rental car and the time needed to get to a hotel. The new airport hotel is badly needed.


User currently offlinePSU.DTW.SCE From United States of America, joined Jan 2002, 7591 posts, RR: 27
Reply 44, posted (1 year 7 months 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 2376 times:

Quoting beechtobus (Reply 42):
I do tend to go through in the evening (after 8 or so) and usually seems to be a breeze compared to other major airports I usually go through (LAX, ORD, FLL T4, SEA). I am usually probably after the rush, granted. Also the A-bridge security always seems pretty bad so I usually avoid that. I think point 2 point is right that any delays are a result of the particular TSA agents or how many there are there at a given time and not so much the set up of the screening areas.

Yeah, after 8pm the airport is really quiet. No wonder TSA is never an issue at that time. The last of the flights headed to cities east of the Mississippi River generally all depart by 6-7pm.

The TSA line at 6am on Monday morning, or basically anytime between about 10am-4pm is very long, particularly around peak ski or summer travel season.

Quoting beechtobus (Reply 42):
Were consolidated rental car facilities even around when DIA was being designed and built in the mid to late 80s and early 90s? I don't remember these coming on the scene before the early 2000s and definitely haven't been the norm at large airports until recently. It for sure should have been done but I just don't think the concept even existed then.

Correct. However, DIA was built to optimize aircraft movements and optimize operations as a connecting hub. There are many things they could have done differently to make the airport more user-friendly for O&D passengers.

The other factor is that the aiport was designed and built in the late 90s/early 90's. Denver and Colorado has experienced a huge amount of growth since that time and the a lot of changed in the requirements of airside and landside infrastructure. DIA was designed for growth, but the growth in the Denver Metro has been higher than anyone thought. Not to mention all the changes in the industry and hubbing carriers and consolidation in the industry.


User currently offlinedenverdanny From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 263 posts, RR: 0
Reply 45, posted (1 year 7 months 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 2304 times:

The airport being constructed originally had the rental car facilities on a level of the parking garage, but the rental car companies decided they wanted their own lots. So, that change was made before the airport opened. I believe the facilities are still in place (fuel lines) for rental car facilities in the garage.

I don't think the design of the hotel impacts the tent of the terminal that much. Only if you are looking at from a limited southern perspective. You do approach from the west and will get a good tent view from there. Really, the tent is best appreciated from the inside. It brings natural light and is awe inspiring when you get off the concourse train and up the escalator. I'm not concerned about the hotel overwhelming the tent. What bothers me more is the placement of the hotel potentially not allowing further expansion of the terminal south if needed. I think it will get messy a couple decades down the line, with possible concourse wings emerging from the terminal, as well as passenger drop off areas.

The weather here is pretty tolerable in the winter, thanks to the sun. I think it's a good point that a poster makes about wind though. The train platform would seem to be somewhat protected by the banks that are around it, it being lower.

Quoting Caspian27 (Reply 23):
I am a Denver native and I can't think of one time it was so cold that I actually saw ice crystals in the air. I didn't even have to put on my jacket to do pre/post flight inspections most days so far this winter.

I'm from the Denver area too, and I don't think I often see the ice crystals thing. However, it was just this past month with our last really cold cold spell that I saw them. It was a cloudless night, but it was so cold that moisture was falling out of the air as ice crystals.

I think the most concern I have about the plans for the airport that are going forward is what room they leave for future development, as well as the cost AND value. I know Kim Day wants to do a lot of things. The question for me is the impact both on workability and financial stability. It seems she wants to reorder the terminal and make it entirely sterile, moving the security lines to the checkin areas and expanding things there. I don't really see the airport becoming a mall of sorts with entertainment events happening there. And the expensive bridge design for the rail, which thankfully didn't happen, was just excessive.

I'm excited about being able to walk to catch the train here in Stapleton. It's cool to see its progress. I used to live by the Southeast line here. That was interesting to see under construction as well.

[Edited 2013-02-20 17:59:39]

User currently offlinePSU.DTW.SCE From United States of America, joined Jan 2002, 7591 posts, RR: 27
Reply 46, posted (1 year 7 months 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 2273 times:

Quoting denverdanny (Reply 45):
I'm from the Denver area too, and I don't think I often see the ice crystals thing. However, it was just this past month with our last really cold cold spell that I saw them. It was a cloudless night, but it was so cold that moisture was falling out of the air as ice crystals.

January 12th, is when I saw this phenomenon

Quoting denverdanny (Reply 45):
It seems she wants to reorder the terminal and make it entirely sterile, moving the security lines to the checkin areas and expanding things there. I don't really see the airport becoming a mall of sorts with entertainment events happening there. And the expensive bridge design for the rail, which thankfully didn't happen, was just excessive.

I wonder if they would ever think about covering over the security checkpoints and opening up the great hall on the upper level. They don't necessarily need or want all of the screening checkpoint area to be open to above and/or with a high open ceiling. They could cover-over the checkpoint areas and add more retail, sitting area, or concessions on the upper level.


User currently offlinepoint2point From United States of America, joined Mar 2010, 2758 posts, RR: 1
Reply 47, posted (1 year 7 months 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 2033 times:

Quoting PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 26):
The rental car set-up is annoying,
Quoting seatback (Reply 27):
However, back in January, as I waited for 20 minutes for the National shuttle bus to pick us up,
Quoting rampart (Reply 41):
I have to agree with you on the rental car operations. Easily DEN's worst planned element.
Quoting slcdeltarumd11 (Reply 43):
Its probably the slowest airport in america both for flyers to get from plane to rental car
Quoting beechtobus (Reply 28):
However, consolidated car rental facilities seem to be becoming the trend

Current Denver Mayor Hancock just recently announced plans for DEN that are not "aviation" related, so to speak. This includes Airport City and Airport Aerotropolis. Airport City is development inside of the airport boundaries, while Aerotropolis will be on the land surrounding the airport and outside of the boundaries. As part of Airport City, there will be Airport City Center, and this is the area where rental car companies will be consolidated. Below is an interactive map of such.

http://www.airportcitydenver.com/map.html

Clicking onto the Airport City Center section, there is mention of the consolidation of the car rental companies, but somehow the area where it will be is not shown in the schematic map. Oh well.....

However, Airport City may have some tough going..... because Adams County, which completely surrounds DEN, is crying foul, and stating that the Airport City development will steal from and deprive Adams County of their intended development around the airport, which would be the Aerotropolis. Adams County officials are using the agreement that the Adams County negotiated with the City of Denver (since DEN is situated completely on land that belonged to Adams County before the City of Denver annexed it for its own to build the airport) saying that this sort of development as Airport City is not allowed in the agreement. However, Mayor Hancock is willing to meet with Adams County officials, and will probably offer them some of the revenue generated by Airport City as a way to move forward Airport City without massive legal delays, and I suppose Adams County officials will be happy as well with the $$$$ at some point.

Now, as part of the Aerotropolis, with time there will probably be some density with low level buildings surrounding the airport. Also, Front Range Airport (FTG), which is Adam's County airport, is in the area, being stated as some 6 miles from DEN, or more like three miles between them from the points of their nearest boaders to each other. I do believe that DEN and FTG actually share the same FAA airspace. FTG has 2 non-crossing perpendicular 8000 feet long paved runways, and these probably could be expanded. FTG is currently a GA airport, along with some other specialty stuff thrown in.

With all of this, the collection of government officials involved have recently applied to the FAA to make FTG a spaceport. There are currently about 6 registered spaceport in the U.S. What this means is that these spaceports will be equipped to handle aircraft that will go higher into our atmosphere than the 36,000 feet maximum (or thereabouts) of current commercial airlines, as well as traveling faster. Sir Richard Branson currently has his FAA licensed spaceport in New Mexico for his future Virgin Galactic operations.

So..... not only will the concept that Branson has for his spaceport allow passengers a three day trip around the upper heights of the troposphere at 50,000 feet at some 2,500 miles per hour, but the technology here can make a trip from the U.S. to SIN, or SYD, in about 2 hours. Maybe something like this being possible some 60 years from now?

Okay..... back to Colorado and the DEN surrounding area. I have to mention that the "outer space" economy of Colorado is now second in the nation, only after California, and within these last couple of years has surpassed Florida. And of the 6 current FAA registered spaceports (and another few are intended to be registered within the next few years) none is as close to a major airport as FTG. The Governor of Colorado recently signed a bill that would limit liability for companies involved with space travel, and Colorado laws are probably most favorable of any state along these lines (just like we can now legally smoke marijuana, eh?)

And to summarize all the above, and whether this will happen or not, but I think that our civic leaders are envisioning that in some 50 years time maybe (?) travelers from around the nation will travel to DEN on the latest generation of snail commercial aircraft, depart DEN and then shuttle through a lot of low density development over to FTG, and then board a vehicle that will take the traveler to Australia, or New Zealand, or Singapore, or Malaysia, or India, in probably less than a fifth of the time that it would take going point-to-point.

Again, I don't know that this will happen, but it certainly seems to be the intent of our currently elected officials. And as DEN was being planned mid 80s, well..... hardly anyone knew what a PC was, and how many people had cellphones?

 





[Edited 2013-02-21 10:26:19]

User currently offlinePSU.DTW.SCE From United States of America, joined Jan 2002, 7591 posts, RR: 27
Reply 48, posted (1 year 7 months 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 1984 times:

Interesting....

However it seems like every major airport with nearby vacant land has envisioned an Aero-tropolis idea. Sounds great on paper, but in reality you cannot just create a city from nothing.

Seems like this just is further encouraging sprawl if nothing else. Not to mention the water issues that plague the Front Range.


User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25292 posts, RR: 85
Reply 49, posted (1 year 7 months 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 1983 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

So I guess DIA isn't known as "Frederico's Folly" - or Peña's Folly - anymore?

 

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlinerampart From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 3139 posts, RR: 6
Reply 50, posted (1 year 7 months 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 1939 times:

Interesting commentary and links, p2p, thanks!

Quoting point2point (Reply 47):
http://www.airportcitydenver.com/map.html

Clicking onto the Airport City Center section, there is mention of the consolidation of the car rental companies, but somehow the area where it will be is not shown in the schematic map. Oh well.....

Cool! Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think it's the "CONRAC" (short for "Consolidated Rental Car Facilities") in a gray parcel not far from the northern terminal-bound bend in Pena Blvd. Better than it is now, slightly closer, certainly not within walking distance, even long walking distance, which might have been possible with an appendage to the existing garages.

Quoting point2point (Reply 47):
With all of this, the collection of government officials involved have recently applied to the FAA to make FTG a spaceport. There are currently about 6 registered spaceport in the U.S.

Good grief! I vaguely recall COS trying to do this back in the 80s... and there were some ideas floating around of establishing something similar in South Park or the San Luis Valley. I can't see how FTG-"spaceport" jives with DIA in such close proximity. (I can't see how FTG jives in the first place. It preceded DIA, if I recall, but probably should have been integrated into DEN as the "general aviation wing" for DIA.) Take a look at the planning map for "Airport City", the "Aero" section (east side) zoomed in has both aerospace facilities and a NASA/Military plot (no doubt linked to the subterranean New World Order complex beneath the airport   ). And if you look at the overview tab, they illustrate the proposed industrial developmen as having the 747 Shuttle Carrier Aircraft with a Shuttle on top taxiing by! If this development is going to revive our 70's era space shuttle technology, woo hoo!   Either way, maybe FTG has planners with more foreward thinking, if they're considering wanting to add Virgin Galactic tot their roster. (again,   )

-Rampart


User currently offlinepoint2point From United States of America, joined Mar 2010, 2758 posts, RR: 1
Reply 51, posted (1 year 7 months 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 1899 times:

Quoting PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 48):
Interesting....

However it seems like every major airport with nearby vacant land has envisioned an Aero-tropolis idea. Sounds great on paper, but in reality you cannot just create a city from nothing.

Seems like this just is further encouraging sprawl if nothing else. Not to mention the water issues that plague the Front Range.

I agree that that it won't spring from nothing, but at least area planners have something on paper as to where they want to go in the next 50 or so years. Of course, this could be adjusted/changed about a 100 times between now and then.

Technology will solve the water problem by then, eh?

Quoting mariner (Reply 49):
So I guess DIA isn't known as "Frederico's Folly" - or Peña's Folly - anymore?

Where do you get that idea.....?

Quoting rampart (Reply 50):
Cool! Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think it's the "CONRAC" (short for "Consolidated Rental Car Facilities") in a gray parcel not far from the northern terminal-bound bend in Pena Blvd. Better than it is now, slightly closer, certainly not within walking distance, even long walking distance, which might have been possible with an appendage to the existing garages.

I do believe that you are correct with this, thank you. I looked for the facility in its current place, and when it wasn't there well..... and yes, it is a better location than where it was. Also..... is it now along the rail route? Could there be a stop along the way, or maybe a rail shuttle?

Quoting rampart (Reply 50):
Good grief!

Yeah yeah.... I know......

But I will say that at some point..... as you state, that if DEN and FTG were somehow merged into one another, well..... I don't know that it would be such a bad idea, other than local jurisdictional and economical issues that would be present. If needed though, I'm sure where there's a will there's a way. I do believe that the FAA already considers it one airspace. Then..... if all goes as planned..... the DEN section would be just the regular commercial aviation, and the FTG section would be the space travel...... with an underground shuttle between them. And of course, this underground shuttle has to be careful with the path it takes.... wouldn't want to disturb the New World Order here.

Quoting rampart (Reply 50):
747 Shuttle Carrier Aircraft with a Shuttle on top taxiing by! If this development is going to revive our 70's era space shuttle technology, woo hoo!

Now that you point this out, and I really looked at it...... yes......   

Quoting rampart (Reply 50):
Either way, maybe FTG has planners with more foreward thinking, if they're considering wanting to add Virgin Galactic tot their roster.

Somewhere in my reading of all of this, I took away that Sir Richard is having problems getting the New Mexico State government to pass similar laws for space travel liability that are now applicable in Colorado, so.....?

Of course at DEN, all of this will have to be approved by the New World Order..... which I don't think will be any problem since this is all going right along their agenda because this is where they're intending to have their space-alien counterparts land when they invade Earth anyway.......

 

[Edited 2013-02-21 11:22:31]

User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25292 posts, RR: 85
Reply 52, posted (1 year 7 months 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 1890 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting point2point (Reply 51):
Where do you get that idea.....?

It was common currency in the early days of DIA:

http://fumento.com/transport/specpena.html

"FEDERICO’S FOLLY"

http://diaconspiracyfiles.com/2011/0...ersy-surrounding-dia-construction/

"They have given the project nicknames such as Denver’s Field of Dreams, the White Elephant of the Plains and Federico’s Folly in memory of Denver’s ex-Mayor Pena, who was a guiding force in launching the new airport."

http://archives.californiaaviation.org/airport/msg34015.html

"Peña, who brushed off criticism of DIA as "Federico's Folly" during the early stages of airport construction, said it was the correct decision to move the airport to the prairie 24 miles northeast of downtown."

http://archives.californiaaviation.org/airport/msg06148.html

"You were vilified in the 1980s over DIA. It was called "Pena's folly," or worse, by some."

I got a lot more.  

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlinepoint2point From United States of America, joined Mar 2010, 2758 posts, RR: 1
Reply 53, posted (1 year 7 months 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 1868 times:

Quoting mariner (Reply 52):
I got a lot more.

I'm sure that you do.

But my line of questioning is that why do you think that it has stopped? I would think that there's still a lot of follies that go on at DIA.

 


User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25292 posts, RR: 85
Reply 54, posted (1 year 7 months 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 1863 times:
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Quoting point2point (Reply 53):
But my line of questioning is that why do you think that it has stopped? I would think that there's still a lot of follies that go on at DIA.

Because it appears to have been so successful.

In the early days DIA was seen as a complete white elephant - and it is provably not. Or so it seems to me.

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlinepoint2point From United States of America, joined Mar 2010, 2758 posts, RR: 1
Reply 55, posted (1 year 7 months 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 1851 times:

Quoting mariner (Reply 54):
Because it appears to have been so successful.

Okay my friend.......

Since success plays its part in this now.... I guess that we'll have to think of a new name for the current follies that go on at DIA, eh?


 


User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25292 posts, RR: 85
Reply 56, posted (1 year 7 months 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 1844 times:
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Quoting point2point (Reply 55):
Since success plays its part in this now.... I guess that we'll have to think of a new name for the current follies that go on at DIA, eh?

The follies at DIA are one thing, many have those. DIA itself cannot, I think, be considered a folly, as it once was.

Frederico Peña had the remarkable vision that would become DIA. I thought he deserved a mention in this thread.

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlinedenverdanny From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 263 posts, RR: 0
Reply 57, posted (1 year 7 months 4 days ago) and read 1797 times:

Well, it cost more than expected, and a lot of extra costs came from design changes and delays. However, it was a steal compared to what other airports are paying just to upgrade/modernize. So, not the folly/boondoggle people make it out to be. Many people here in Denver had that opinion. I remember searching for articles in the News or Post about the airport construction when I was younger. Was very interesting and exciting.

User currently offlineairfrnt From United States of America, joined Jul 2004, 2826 posts, RR: 42
Reply 58, posted (1 year 7 months 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 1742 times:

DEN has been remarkably successful, and is, IMNSHO, the best airport in the US. Compare the airport cost to what other airports are paying now for just a single new runway, and appreciate how forward thinking it was to build the airport.

User currently offline777ER From New Zealand, joined Dec 2003, 12172 posts, RR: 17
Reply 59, posted (1 year 7 months 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 1438 times:
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