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Lufthansa Looking For 108 New Aircraft  
User currently offlineKarelXWB From Netherlands, joined Jul 2012, 8752 posts, RR: 29
Posted (1 year 1 month 4 weeks ago) and read 53468 times:

Flightglobal reports that Lufthansa is in talk with both Boeing and Airbus to order up to 108 new aircraft: 100 short-haul and 8 long-haul units.

Quote:
#Lufthansa proposing to supervisory board to order 100 short-haul and eight long-haul aircraft, delivery in 2015-25.
Quote:
#Lufhansa in discussions with both #Airbus and #Boeing over order for 108 aircraft, overall value of $9bn.

What do you think, 737 Max / A320neo, A350 / 787 or even more VLA's?


Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity. And I'm not sure about the universe.
206 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinekaitak From Ireland, joined Aug 1999, 12322 posts, RR: 35
Reply 1, posted (1 year 1 month 3 weeks 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 53455 times:

Eight long haul units seems to be a bit too small a number for LH, to introduce a new type; I think these would most likely be a top up of existing types - and not just one model either. Could be a combination of existing types, e.g. 6 A330s and 2 A380s.

As to short haul types, I'd eat my lederhosen if they chose the 737-MAX over the A320 NEO. But stranger things have happened and availability may be an issue.


User currently offlinena From Germany, joined Dec 1999, 10364 posts, RR: 11
Reply 2, posted (1 year 1 month 3 weeks 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 53367 times:

I wonder if this is for the LH fleet, or also for Swiss/AUA and Brussels, all of which have many shorthaul planes to replace in that timeframe. 8 longhaul planes, that doesnt sound like the long awaited 787/A350 battle. More like a a follow-on order for a few A380s, A330s, 748s, maybe even all three types. And 100 shorthaulers for between 2015 - 2025, thats likely to replace the dozens of A319s, A320s and A321s built in the 90s/early 2000s. By 2015 all 737s are gone, and replacements for them and the A320s built around 1990 have been ordered already some time ago.

User currently offlinecolumba From Germany, joined Dec 2004, 7027 posts, RR: 4
Reply 3, posted (1 year 1 month 3 weeks 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 53125 times:

8 747-8Is and 100 Airbus narrowbodies.....   No word of the CSeries though

P.S. Would love if they would order some 737Max as well, Lufthansa is not Lufthansa without the 737 !!!

[Edited 2013-02-19 13:01:11]


It will forever be a McDonnell Douglas MD 80 , Boeing MD 80 sounds so wrong
User currently offlineAviaco From Germany, joined May 2012, 34 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (1 year 1 month 3 weeks 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 53054 times:

That would add on to the 131 planes they already have on order until 2025....
A total of 239.


User currently offlineba319-131 From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2001, 8430 posts, RR: 55
Reply 5, posted (1 year 1 month 3 weeks 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 52820 times:
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Quoting kaitak (Reply 1):
Eight long haul units seems to be a bit too small a number for LH, to introduce a new type

- Agreed, given, the 2015-2025 slot this has to favour 748 and or A380.

Quoting kaitak (Reply 1):
As to short haul types, I'd eat my lederhosen if they chose the 737-MAX over the A320 NEO

- Indeed, especially as LH already have a NEO order placed from a year or so back.

Quoting kaitak (Reply 1):
But stranger things have happened and availability may be an issue.

- True, let's not count chickens just yet!



111,732,3,4,5,7,8,BBJ,741,742,743,744,752,762,763,764,772,773,77W,L15,D10,30,40,AB3,AB6,A312.313,319,320,321,332,333,342
User currently offlinePhilInBRN From Switzerland, joined Jun 2009, 243 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (1 year 1 month 3 weeks 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 52707 times:

My guess is for 8 77W for LX and a mix of A32S NEO and C-Series. Given the fact that the aging Fokkers and Avros of OS and SN respectively need to be eventually replaced I'm quite sure this order will include smaller aircraft.

User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 24075 posts, RR: 22
Reply 7, posted (1 year 1 month 3 weeks 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 52612 times:

Quoting PhilInBRN (Reply 6):
My guess is for 8 77W for LX

A350 makes much more sense considering commonality issues.


User currently offlineAviaco From Germany, joined May 2012, 34 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (1 year 1 month 3 weeks 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 52555 times:

I think the eight new long haul aircraft will be follow on orders of an existing subfleet.
A330 or A380 or B747-8i, or a mix of it.
The decision which new aircraft type will be introduced will be made later this year, i guess.


User currently offlinePhilInBRN From Switzerland, joined Jun 2009, 243 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (1 year 1 month 3 weeks 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 52571 times:

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 7):
A350 makes much more sense considering commonality issues.
LX needs to replace six A343s soon as their leases expire. They will not get A350-1000s until around 2018. Furthermore Harry Hohmeister (LX CEO) has already indicated several times in interviews that he wants the new planes to arrive by 2015. According to these interviews it's also quite clear that he seems to favor the 77W as a A343 replacement. The 77W would give LX great potential to profitably grow its long haul network between 2015 and 2020.

[Edited 2013-02-19 13:39:19]

User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 29684 posts, RR: 84
Reply 10, posted (1 year 1 month 3 weeks 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 52507 times:
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Quoting kaitak (Reply 1):
As to short haul types, I'd eat my lederhosen if they chose the 737-MAX over the A320 NEO. But stranger things have happened and availability may be an issue.

I am 110% sure they will not order the MAX because none of the LH Group operate the 737 anymore (they're either gone or going). Even if Boeing could offer a significant number of planes with earlier availability, I am 120% sure the group's airlines would all wait for additional A320neo slots beyond what they already have on order or lease interim lift.

There is 130% no chance of a 777-300ER order for LX. LH would order additional 747-8s and then hand off A340-600s to LX first.

[Edited 2013-02-19 13:41:09]

User currently offlinescbriml From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2003, 12037 posts, RR: 47
Reply 11, posted (1 year 1 month 3 weeks 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 52492 times:
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Quoting kaitak (Reply 1):
I'd eat my lederhosen if they chose the 737-MAX over the A320 NEO

Especially as they've already ordered the neo.   



Hey AA, the 1960s called. They want their planes back!
User currently offlinena From Germany, joined Dec 1999, 10364 posts, RR: 11
Reply 12, posted (1 year 1 month 3 weeks 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 52504 times:

Quoting PhilInBRN (Reply 6):
My guess is for 8 77W for LX

99% no. LH will go 787 or A350, maybe the 777X has a small chance in 10 years from now. But not a small fleet of a type whose production end is at the horizon and that has been turned down twice already.
Beside that, as I said, a number of the shorthaul planes could very well be for Swiss (and Austrian, and Brussels, beside LH).


User currently offlinena From Germany, joined Dec 1999, 10364 posts, RR: 11
Reply 13, posted (1 year 1 month 3 weeks 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 52393 times:

Quoting PhilInBRN (Reply 9):
LX needs to replace six A343s soon as their leases expire. They will not get A350-1000s until around 2018. Furthermore Harry Hohmeister (LX CEO) has already indicated several times in interviews that he wants the new planes to arrive by 2015. According to these interviews it's also quite clear that he seems to favor the 77W as a A343 replacement. The 77W would give LX great potential to profitably grow its long haul network between 2015 and 2020.

Swiss is premium heavy, and the 748I would provide high-yield passengers with superior comfort than the middle-of-the road 77W without a doubt.


User currently offlineautothrust From Switzerland, joined Jun 2006, 1545 posts, RR: 9
Reply 14, posted (1 year 1 month 3 weeks 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 50488 times:

Quoting PhilInBRN (Reply 6):
My guess is for 8 77W

Not gonna happen. If they would buy 777 for LX or LH a subfleet of 8 would be to small to justify the introduction of a new type.

Quoting PhilInBRN (Reply 9):
They will not get A350-1000s

Who's talking about the A350-1000?? They could get much earlier some A350-900 with unprecedented economy over their existing fleet.


Quoting PhilInBRN (Reply 9):
Harry Hohmeister (LX CEO) has already indicated several times in interviews that he wants the new planes to arrive by 2015.

That's why they will probably lease some A340-6 until the A350 arrives.

Quoting PhilInBRN (Reply 9):
According to these interviews it's also quite clear that he seems to favor the 77W as a A343 replacement.

I really don't know where you get this myth. It's nowhere clear he seems to favor the 77W.

Quoting PhilInBRN (Reply 9):
The 77W would give LX great potential

True it's a efficient platform, but at what expense. What will pilots say about. And you forgot SR Technics which has ZERO experience with this Type.

Introducing a new "older" Type to Pilots and SR Technics, destroying commonality(where many LX pilots are happy about) between the fleet, while the next gen widebody is at the door doesn't make any sense. I bet SR Technics will be eagerly to get their hands on the A350's composite frame. A lot of their customers will get the A350 too.

Quoting na (Reply 12):
99% no.

     



“Faliure is not an option.”
User currently offlineJordanFittz From United States of America, joined Oct 2012, 8 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (1 year 1 month 3 weeks 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 50433 times:

I would say its inevitable LH will order the 350 at some point in the not to distant future. Unlikely to be part of this particular order that flight global are reporting on. At a guess id say they may order a batch of A333s as a stop gap until they can get there hands on the A350. Unlikely they'll go 777w in my opinion.

User currently offlineanfromme From Ireland, joined Feb 2012, 395 posts, RR: 11
Reply 16, posted (1 year 1 month 3 weeks 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 48822 times:

Quoting kaitak (Reply 1):
As to short haul types, I'd eat my lederhosen if they chose the 737-MAX over the A320 NEO. But stranger things have happened and availability may be an issue.

I'd be pretty sure that a) LH placed options when they originally ordered their first batch of NEOs and b) there are still some slots available in the time beyond that, i.e. between the end of their first 30 NEO deliveries and 2025.
As for the long-haul decision, I agree they won't introduce a new type with an order for just 8, i.e. this won't be their long-awaited order for A350/787, but a top-up of either A330, 747-8i or A380 (or a mix thereof).



Sláinte!
User currently offlineMCOflyer From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 8625 posts, RR: 15
Reply 17, posted (1 year 1 month 3 weeks 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 48344 times:

I think A333E or 748I for the widebody and Neo for the narrowbody order.

KH



Never be afraid to stand up for who you are.
User currently offlineanfromme From Ireland, joined Feb 2012, 395 posts, RR: 11
Reply 18, posted (1 year 1 month 3 weeks 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 48350 times:

Just found this at Bloomberg:

Quote:
The company said the aircraft order will be a blend of Airbus SAS and Boeing Co. airliners, while not disclosing the exact types.
http://mobile.bloomberg.com/news/201...uro-plane-purchase.html?cmpid=yhoo

Sounds like they're almost done negotiating and have a clear idea of the types and numbers involved.
MAX seems unlikely, so it's probably going to be NEO and some 747-8i, plus maybe 3 - 5 A380s (they should still have 3 options for the type). There's one 747-8i LH said they would likely re-order after they cancelled their order for an early frame that now stays with Boeing.
Then again - LH may surprise us with a mix of MAX and NEO, plus 747-8i/A380s; Lufthansa Technik would surely be providing maintenance for MAX anyway, and LH have been successfully operating 737 Classic and A32S side-by-side, as well as different engine types on the A32S family members. They also have plenty of pilots trained on 737 Classic for whom the transition to 737MAX shouldn't take too long. One catch: The 737s are supposed to leave the fleet by 2016, while MAX has an EIS of 2017 (if all goes well), and most early slots are already taken.



Sláinte!
User currently offlineMCOflyer From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 8625 posts, RR: 15
Reply 19, posted (1 year 1 month 3 weeks 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 47051 times:

Quoting anfromme (Reply 18):

If LH orders the 737 max, it will be somewhat of a surprise to me as they seem to favor Airbus with their recent orders for the Neo. They currently operate 39 737 300/500's of which I suspect the 100 plane narrowbody will replace. As most of you know, LH likes to keep things simple and going Boeing for their narrowbody fleet does the exact opposite. Yes they have classics right now, by why add costs when you can trim it??

KH



Never be afraid to stand up for who you are.
User currently offlinecolumba From Germany, joined Dec 2004, 7027 posts, RR: 4
Reply 20, posted (1 year 1 month 3 weeks 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 45481 times:

So if this is going to be a blend of Airbus and Boeing aircraft and we know it will be for 100 short haul and 8 long haul aircraft it is very likely that the split will be 100 short haul aircraft for Airbus aircraft and the 8 long haul aircraft will go to Boeing.

For the 8 long haul aircraft there are two choices: 8 747-8Is for LH main line and even if many don´t believe it 8 777W for Swiss. From what I have read over the last few weeks I would not be surprised if it will be the later. Swiss wants the 777W. They need a bigger plane for their routes to Brazil. The 747-8I which was also briefly considered is too big. They don´t want 2nd hand A346s for various reasons, this option is of the table. That leaves only the 777W if they want a bigger plane in 2015. LH already has experience with the 777 with Austrian, Aero Logic and Lufthansa Cargo has them on order, too. It is not that the 777 will be an oddball within the LH group.

[Edited 2013-02-19 22:01:20]


It will forever be a McDonnell Douglas MD 80 , Boeing MD 80 sounds so wrong
User currently offlineusctrojan18 From United States of America, joined Feb 2013, 92 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (1 year 1 month 3 weeks 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 45012 times:

Would love to see some more 747-8i's no matter what airline. The 747 is a legend I really hope doesnt die like the DC-10 is just about to.

User currently offlinebehramjee From Canada, joined Aug 2003, 4716 posts, RR: 44
Reply 22, posted (1 year 1 month 3 weeks 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 44975 times:

I would say 8 747-800s for the wide bodies and 100 A320NEOs family for the narrow body.

User currently offlinegjunnar From Germany, joined Sep 2001, 155 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (1 year 1 month 3 weeks 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 40837 times:

German air-industry newspage aero.de reports (unconfirmed!)

6x 777 for SWISS (most probably 77W)
2x A380 for LH

http://www.aero.de/news-16911/Luftha...12-operativen-Gewinnrueckgang.html

[Edited 2013-02-20 03:03:53]

User currently offlineKarelXWB From Netherlands, joined Jul 2012, 8752 posts, RR: 29
Reply 24, posted (1 year 1 month 3 weeks 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 40564 times:

Quoting gjunnar (Reply 23):
2x A380 for LH

Seems like Lufthansa is very happy with the A380.



Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity. And I'm not sure about the universe.
25 RickNRoll : Looks like the 777 beats the 748 again.
26 817Dreamliiner : If that turns out to be true, that will be a bit disappointing for some here in this thread...
27 Post contains images na : That would definitely be a negative surprise for me if true. My most disliked widebody for Swiss I sincerely hoped LH would have succeeded in avoidin
28 anfromme : Well, they're not really keeping things that simple - they ordered their last 737 Classics (by way of converting orders) in 1995. They had already be
29 Post contains images EPA001 : Well, since part of these wide-bodies are for Swiss, the choice seems logical if this is confirmed. I guess they are. And good for them and us. More
30 Post contains images Bongodog1964 : LH as befitting a major airline with the interests of its shareholders in mind, will be scrupulously fair in evaluating the A320 NEO and 737 MAX side
31 PhilInBRN : Of the 15 frames currently in the fleet six need to be replaced quite soon as they are older and their leasing contracts expire. These six frames are
32 brightcedars : I think the 77W is perfectly suited for LX and a nice introduction to the wider LH group fleet. A carrier the size of LH cannot have exclusives, espec
33 scbriml : It will. Just as every type does eventually.
34 Post contains images jumpjet : Sad, but very true....
35 CiC : Are there any 77W Production slots available ? Maybe LH gets another huuuuuuuuuuuuuge Discount on more 748i to keep the production line ongoing... I w
36 fcogafa : Excellent call by PillinBRN against all the odds - could you advise this weeks winning lottery numbers too please?![Edited 2013-02-20 04:48:13]
37 DALCE : My hopes are that LX will get some 748i's as replacements. But it is more likely that LH gets new longhaul aircraft, and some LH metal will be transfe
38 Cassi : From a recent interview with John Leahy: "there are two A380 slots available by the end of 2015 and a few more in 2016." LH could get those 2 A380s in
39 B777LRF : .... Oh dear, where to start? LH getting back in the 767 game or compensation for an aircraft they didn't order? On the other hand, better leave it a
40 robffm2 : Interesting, still difficult to believe they would go with the 777.
41 ba319-131 : - I doubt the leasing companie(s) have any takers lined up for these when they come off lease, no reason why they could not be extended until a suita
42 jfk777 : IF Lufthansa orders 777 for SWISS or itself that would be Boeing ulimate revenge. A330-300 seem to be th right replacement for A340's. The 8 long haul
43 LH422 : Interesting move on the 777. This would bring the LH A380 order up to the current SQ fleet of 19. EK: 90 orders (31 so far) SQ: 24 orders (19 so far)
44 PhilInBRN : In this case the A333 is not the ideal replacement. LX needs the range that the A343 provides to serve destinations such as GRU, JNB, HKG etc. It's a
45 vfw614 : I think "air-industry newspage" is a bit exaggerated. And as of yesterday, LH was negotiating with Boeing and Airbus, so I doubt that they would conf
46 na : In other (little) news LH is bringing back to service one of the stored early-built 744s. Aircraft in question is D-ABVD from 1990 according to skylin
47 Post contains links LH422 : This invalidates my post All Lufthansa Widebodys Now Have Avod In Y (by LH422 Feb 7 2013 in Civil Aviation)
48 PanAm1971 : I'd love to see another order for 748's! The slots are avialable... LH has been happy with them (according to posts on this site) and they can put the
49 Ferroviarius : Ohnooooo, pleaeaeaease, keep LH / LX / OA / SK 777-free. The 3-3-3 is so un-comfortable as compared to 2-4-2 and the 777 is an awfully loud aircraft
50 phxa340 : Sorry to burst your bubble but it was Lufthansa that pubically stated it would be a blend of both Boeing and Airbus. I also disagree with everyone sa
51 drgmobile : I find it very surprising that only Boeing and Airbus were named for the narrowbodies. Particularly since they are looking to phase out 737-300s and -
52 flyglobal : I 'tell you' guys: (friendly of course): Maybe Boeing will give LH some extra slots on an early delivery date if LH will buy the 777 passenger versio
53 vfw614 : I think you are referring to "Lufthansa Group", whereas I was talking about one the group's smaller subsidiaries, Swiss. As far as I am aware, noone
54 anfromme : Possibly, but I don't see that happening this time around. If LH are going to buy 777, they'd need more than 8 frames, especially if they want to cov
55 Stitch : It could just be the first tranche or an interim lift decision. British Airways has a shedload of 747-400s to replace beyond their A380-800 order, bu
56 SEPilot : If it is true that LH is going to buy both Boeing and Airbus planes, and that deliveries are to start in 2015, that leads me to believe that the narro
57 B777LRF : Difference being, BA had a shedload of 777s in their fleet already. I do not believe for a second that LH will ever include the current generation 77
58 LOWS : Sorry to have to do this but OS operates 772s, and LH decided to keep them after they bought OS.
59 Post contains images Stitch : Hey, I'm the fellow who has long been on record as believing that LH (and by extension, the LH group) would prefer to be an all-Airbus operator and t
60 Post contains images B777LRF : Point taken, and sorry for being unclear. My intention was to say that LH Group will not include the current 777 passenger offerings in any future or
61 Post contains images anfromme : Possibly, but if it's true that they are deciding on a bigger widebody order in autumn I would expect them to already be in talks with Boeing and Air
62 Post contains images B777LRF : Gotcha dude, but just for arguments sake it wasn't LH Group who ordered those 777s
63 columba : Why would it be ? Swiss has 14 A333 and 2 more on order, they are very pleased with it. As I stated before Swiss is looking for a larger aircraft to
64 Douglasyxz : I don't see LH ordering now and so few 777 for LX. It was mentioned not too long ago that LX had operated LX planes with Edelweiss pilots and FA just
65 sweair : I think Boeing will lose most EU airlines, Boeing has no good name in EU now at all. Nationalism is getting stronger as the economy tanks more and mor
66 columba : Yes, but the number of sales especially for the 777 and 787 say otherwise......
67 SRMD11 : You can count on me... 6 times 777W's for SWISS. Needed for New York, Sao Paulo and Bangkok route. Later, more 777 join - maybe... That's because a 74
68 sweair : The 787 backlog is enormous, so count that out, the 777 has not a huge but not a very small backlog either, the 748 has a very short backlog, don´t k
69 columba : What I have read so far, LH is indeed talking with Boeing over the 737Max - that does not have to mean anything but LH would be silly not to get a sec
70 sweair : What aircraft has slots open for a 2015 delivery? That should be the question.
71 planesmart : Commercial aircraft funding and leasing is more similar to commercial property than motor vehicles. It is highly complex, made more exciting by intern
72 Viscount724 : As mentioned before, I think the A350 makes more sense for LX to maintain Airbus commonality advantages. If the problem is the need for additonal cap
73 Philly65 : Isn't the 77W considered old technology? Why not hold out until the A350 or other next generation twin aisles. I am sure the 77Ws will be given away a
74 Post contains links Fyano773 : Any future orders? May be not, but certainly they plan to add more T7s within the group: CEO: Austrian to add two 777s, increase capacity 25%
75 Stitch : It can still be a money-making machine and in the time you wait for an A350-1000 or 777-9X, you could be generating plenty of cash with a 777-300ER.
76 columba : As mentioned before, Swiss is looking for a larger aircraft now. The A350-900 is too small for their needs and the -1000 still a few years away. The
77 PanHAM : There's an interview with Mr. Frantz in today's issue of FAZ and he said that the order for new long range jets will be decided this year. The reporte
78 Post contains links flood : Lufthansa Set To Buy Six Boeing 777-300ERs For Swiss: http://www.aviationweek.com/Article....l/avd_02_21_2013_p03-01-550951.xml
79 PanHAM : The interesting part in that article is that the supervisory board will decide how the narrow body order will be split between Boeing and Airbus.
80 flood : I'm still a little skeptical of a split narrowbody order. Didn't LH state just a few months ago they were seeking to streamline and reduce the number
81 na : If you are clever and lease the plane for 8 or 10 years perhaps, oand if you install the infamous 10-abreast cattle class onboard. But when A350-1000
82 kaitak : I sincerely hope LX (nearly wrote SR!) won't be going down the 10-abreast route! Surely the 77W will give them enough extra capacity without needing
83 anfromme : That rumour seems to be getting some traction now. I'd still be surprised if it happened that way, but let's see - sure keeps the suspense up...
84 Post contains links anfromme : Just found the FAZ interview online. In it, Franz says this: Translation: While we are presently looking at the replacement of our A320 and 737 planes
85 ZRH : I actually only believe it when I see the birds in SWISS livery. To have an extra pilot corps for only 6 frames makes absolutely no sense. Especially
86 Post contains images Heavierthanair : G´day If Swiss is really that desperate to get six larger aircraft to raise capacity on some routes and to replace their oldest A 343´s coming off l
87 JerseyFlyer : The Aviation Week artricle is very detailed and clear (although of course may not be correct): "Lufthansa is close to placing an order for six Boeing
88 SEPilot : Where would Airbus get them? The line is closed, and to the best of my knowledge there are not six unemployed A346's floating around.
89 Heavierthanair : G´day Airbus are taking back some from Virgin Atlantic, also Thai´s are available, likely others, all in fairly good shape. Cheers Peter
90 Post contains links anfromme : Airbus Asset Management lists exactly six unemployed A340-600 as being or becoming available for lease/sale: MSN 383 MSN 391 MSN 416 (incidentally the
91 SEPilot : But if they need to replace them now, due to lease expiration, there is not a lot of choice, although as anfromme points out there are in fact six av
92 anfromme : I'm pretty sure the lead-time on any of the A340-600s that Airbus have available is much shorter than the lead-time on any newly-ordered 77W. Yep, bu
93 Post contains links indcwby : So question: When I hear Short Haul, the A320/B737s don't come to mind. Per their fleet site, http://konzern.lufthansa.com/en/fleet.html They define E
94 AustrianZRH : I hope so too but I fear they will. They have 17.0" seats in Y on their A340, 10 abreast in a 77W would result in the same seat width. And bean count
95 Stitch : Perhaps LH (and/or the Group) has (have) internally chosen the 787 and 777X for their widebody replacement and these 77Ws are that interim option for
96 SEPilot : But they said that they were talking to Airbus and Boeing. They don't build any smaller aircraft. That would make sense. I certainly don't see them o
97 Post contains images SCAT15F : Si its pretty much confirmed that there will be no 748's included in this 108 aircraft order? Very disappointing and discouraging.
98 anfromme : If that was the case LH would be talking to the wrong people as they have confirmed they are in negotiations with Airbus and Boeing. Also, in the FAZ
99 Post contains images columba : No, they clearly mention Airbus and Boeing. In the Interview with the CEO of LH he clearly says that this order is to replace their 737 and A320 flee
100 sweair : I think having mixed fleets is a good choice, fault tolerant, redundant etc And if orders are big a way to get your fleet faster. If one OEMs aircraft
101 kaitak : It would be interesting in LH got any 737MAXs for their short haul fleet; current plans call for 737s to be retired by 2016 ... just before what would
102 ba319-131 : Folks, don't get wound up by the fact the need to acquire new machines is being driven by the leases expiring. Nobody is beating a path to the leasing
103 Post contains links SQ22 : Me, too and you're right. http://atwonline.com/aircraft-engine...ndards-future-aircraft-orders-1016 We had a Thread about it, but I couldn't find it.
104 Post contains images scbriml : Well, the split could be 100%-0%
105 Post contains images EPA001 : The only reason LH might split the NB-order would be in my opinion to give LH-Technik, the highly successful maintenance department of LH, the chance
106 MCOflyer : My final guess goes to six 77W's and two A380's for the wideboadied order. Does anyone besides me think LH could possibly split the order between the
107 phxa340 : Agreed but could it also be simply the MAX and NEO will both be great aircraft and neither Boeing nor Airbus can fulfill LH needs in a certain timefr
108 Post contains images EPA001 : That could also be a possibility. Though LH is not in the market for so many NB-airplanes as AA was at the time. But with so many orders for the NEO
109 Post contains images phxa340 : While its no 460 plane order - 100 narrow bodies is a lot of delivery slots tied up
110 dbo861 : I'm not sure the depreciation will be as high as you think. When the 3510 and 777X become operational these 77Ws will still be a very capable aircraf
111 JerseyFlyer : Which would also explain the absence of a 748 top-up order as the 748 was intended largely to replace the A346s
112 SCAT15F : Why not 6 777W's and 2 748i's for the top-up order?
113 na : Wrong. All 748s ordered so far are replacements for the pre-1992 built batch of 744s. Options/Top-up orders would be for the second batch which will
114 Post contains links columba : Apparently the order does also include 30 CSeries to replace the Fokker fleet of Austrian: http://www.ch-aviation.ch/portal/new...aircraft-centralize-
115 sweair : Isn´t the 77W a huge step up from A343? Unbeatable economics, but only if you have the passenger numbers to fill it.
116 douglasyxz : LH has not only reduced its own 737 fleet but also replaced 737NG at OS by 320. Quite a lot of 320 family aircraft are on order still for LH. It would
117 Stitch : LX evidently has the passenger numbers as they want/need a larger plane.
118 Dash9 : Ordering a second batch of a jet that as not fly yet would be a nice vote of confidence for BBD
119 sweair : Maybe they could even fill 380 seats in a 748i? As that frame could be delivered before 2015 for sure, it has empty slots right now, along with 380 s
120 anfromme : Here's a breakdown of pending orders as of 28-02-2013: LH: 1x A319, 47x A320 (including 30 NEO), 7x A321 AUA: none LX: 1x A320, 2x A321 SN: none 4U:
121 autothrust : Huh? No the 747-8 were inteded to replace the 747-400.
122 Semaex : What I find more interesting in that short article than the 30 CSeries is that LH is going to move its Passage HQ to Frankfurt and CLH HQ to Munich b
123 douglasyxz : Semaex, it is no rumor, it is a matter of fact. Have a look at reply 84 of anfromme, there you find a link to an interview of C. Franz with FAZ. Cityl
124 douglasyxz : Isn't the MAX much bigger than 737 300/500? Does LH really need that? I thought CS 300 would be the most suitable replacement in terms of pax capacity
125 Semaex : AFAIK also CRJ will be moved to 4U. If that is only on the balance sheet or also crew and aircraft, I don't know.
126 Post contains links douglasyxz : Those CRJ900 will not be transferred to 4U but Eurowings is going to operate them on behalf of 4U. According to LH website: http://www.lufthansagroup.
127 columba : So it is official that the 100 plane narrowbody order will be split between Airbus and Boeing aircraft
128 scbriml : Personally, I think they're just saying the total 108 plane order will be split between the two manufacturers.
129 douglasyxz : No, columba, it does not necessarily mean the NB order will be split. There is a significant difference between the German and the English version of
130 Post contains images sweair : 100 aircraft of either A or B? Or is it "and"? Now we will have to debate this, what is the meaning of those words..
131 douglasyxz : The headline of the statement is more than clear: a total of 108 planes, WB and NB.
132 sweair : I was trying to be smart like a lawyer, bending words..
133 douglasyxz : Got it. But let's get serious. Why should an airline that is phasing out a specific type throughout its entire group plan to buy it again? And as the
134 anfromme : 737-7MAX would be equivalent to 737-300. The size category of the A318/737-500/737-600 is really served by larger regional jets, e.g. E-190, CS-100,
135 columba : Yes the German article can be understood this way but if you read the headline it clearly says "Mittel- und Langfristbedarf auf der Kurz- und Mittels
136 na : Unless Boeing makes an offer no one can resist the shorthaul order will be for Airbus I am sure, although a split is possible. As more and more flight
137 columba : One word: "Availablity" both the Max and Neo have huge backlogs. Because of that many airlines already have done so, just look at American Airlines o
138 phxa340 : Huh ? By that logic, FR and WN should be an all Airbus fleet but alas the 737 is working fine for them !
139 douglasyxz : That is right for LH's birds, but not for those recently phased out at OS. The last one, 737NG was not even 7 years old when it has been sold. That i
140 na : Working "fine", for their beancounters maybe, not so much for the passengers. I used to fly FR from time to time, since 2007 I dont do that anymore,
141 vin2basketball : But they work fine for passengers too -- at least in the sense that passengers will not book away from an airline just because it flies 737s vs. A320
142 douglasyxz : Fully agree with you, vin2basketball. The majority of pax wouldn't recognize if they are sitting in an A or B plane. They know which airline they are
143 Post contains images autothrust : How do you know that? The 77X is not even defined or decided. It's a paper plane at the moment. While the A350 will fly this year, the TrentXWB is al
144 na : ONLY because they often offer the cheapest tickets. But that isnt the case as often anymore as it used to be. For someone living in and around Frankf
145 flyglobal : Expect that an LH representative will sit on almost all tables when Boeing or Airbus are considering new or updated planes. Remember when LH insisted
146 autothrust : That applies to any airline. Boeing won't make the plane just to make LH happy and give the plane they want. Boeing will listen to all airlines and t
147 columba : Didn´t you just contradict yourself ? How can you say that the A350 will offer lower maintenance costs and on the hand say the 777X is nothing but a
148 seahawk : I can see the MAX as an interesting option for Germanwings.
149 Paolo92 : If it proves well with Swiss, I could see the dense variant of the CS300 for Germanwings, or also the high density variant... They are using A319 at
150 Post contains images sunrisevalley : At shoulder level it is insignificant. I would suggest there needs to be a more compelling reason than this to choose an A320 over a 737.
151 autothrust : No. Haven't you seen the recent picture from the A350? It's for (almost)the same reasons why the 787 will offer lower maintenance costs over a A330.
152 Semaex : There's quite a lot more to maintain on an airplane than just CFRP panels. And anyways, why wouldn't a brand-new 77X not feature as much of it? If th
153 autothrust : Because Boeing would have to redesign the 777 from scratch and they never would be able to pull it out until 2017. Also the development costs would b
154 SEPilot : I think it is pretty well established that CFRP requires less maintenance than aluminum. That is why people can confidently state that maintenance co
155 mjoelnir : This thread is already quite long, so it can be that I missed it if ot was mentioned before. The A319/320/321 has the possibility to handle luggage in
156 seahawk : Not for Germanwings for example, as they are doing point to point connections outside the hubs.
157 PanHAM : . I was going to ask the same question. The A319/320/321 do have a bulk compartment as well, but the majority of the luggage as well as the freight is
158 abba : If Boeing were not to keep the past in certain significant ways, they wouldn't be doing a 777x but a Y3...
159 Post contains images Heavierthanair : G'day Germanwings does not use cans, so I guess for them that is not an issue. But then again, they have selected the 'bus for some reason, and that w
160 Paolo92 : LH has all A319 bulk and A320/321 containerized.
161 Post contains links ytz : I would hope the CS500. It needs a launch customer! And Germanwings would prove perfect. Not even the ER. Just the CS500. 150 pax at the normal 32" p
162 columba : If the plane fits their needs LH has no problem being the launch customer: FD 728 A310 A321 A340 737 747F 747-8 as a few examples
163 douglasyxz : LH is launch customer for the all-new CS100. Being the same for a stretched CS500 would be a significantly lower risk. The number of planes needed fo
164 ytz : I was under the impression that LH is not the launch customer. Just an early customer. If that was the case, I think LH would have ordered the CS300
165 Paolo92 : Lufthansa actually is the launch customer (airline which signed the first order, launching the program), but will not be the first operator (still un
166 Post contains links douglasyxz : http://www.bombardier.com/en/corpora...ses/details?docID=0901260d80088e67 "The Lufthansa Group became the launch customer for the CSeries aircraft fam
167 ZRH : I only know that the first 30 aircrafts go to SWISS to replace the 20 AVROs and to expand or probably to replace some 319.[Edited 2013-02-28 12:51:21
168 Post contains links Paolo92 : According to their corporate website: http://investor-relations.lufthansag.../fakten-zum-unternehmen/fleet.html They still hold 5 options for A321, 2
169 columba : What do you think, can we expect an announcement in the next few weeks ?
170 PanHAM : The AGM in may would be a good date to announce, or the next supervisory board meeting. Check investors relations for dates
171 sweair : It would be great to see a mainline airline going for big numbers of the C-series. It will turn the heat up on the duopoly in the NB market. A+B could
172 JoeCanuck : I really doubt anything will happen at least until first flight...though the presence of a senior LH Executive Vice President Nico Buchholz at the CSe
173 columba : I believe the CS 300 will be a good replacement for the A319s. As Nico Buchholz once said the A319NEO is too heavy and they don´t need the range of
174 YTZ : I just don't think there's a place for an aircraft that sized going forward with LH mainline. Going forward I could see LH regionals take up the CS10
175 columba : Could be that LH mainline will be 737Max/A320 only and that the smaller aircraft will be operated by Cityline&Germanwings. Regarding the Boeing o
176 Stitch : There are a total of 36 777-300ER UFOs on the books: 29-Jul-2011 | 1 30-Sep-2011 | 1 31-Oct-2011 | 2 13-Jul-2012 | 2 17-Dec-2012 | 30 There are also
177 douglasyxz : Correct. Since after July LH will only fly own NBs out of FRA and MUC, the need for small aircraft is simply not given IMO. For LX, OS and 4U indeed,
178 JoeCanuck : Once you have a different type in the fleet, then adding more becomes less onerous since the support and supply chain is already in place. To LH, a s
179 PanHAM : There is a Boeing fraction in the LH pilot roster and when a 737 captain who has also piloted 744s as a senior FO before switching back to the 737 con
180 YTZ : Do any of those airlines need containerized cargo? For example could LX and OS go all CSeries for short-haul or do they need the cans?
181 PanHAM : Most freight in Europe is trucked to the gateways, except most but not all premium flash cargo. The cans are certainly not needed for transshipment to
182 DALCE : We use AKH's on the 320's at LX, and I can tell you that it's quite an advantage compared to bulk operators who habe limits of 100kgs / 150kgs per pie
183 PanHAM : I lost touch a little bit but I mentioned earlier here that the A320/321 have a clear advantage ofver the Boeings with the AKH. Unofrtunately, flight
184 YTZ : I take it this means all CSeries is not possible for LX. The next thing I wonder is if an airline like LX can do with mostly the CSeries and a fleet
185 DALCE : I can't imagine the C-series replacing all of the 320-series at LX. Perhaps they can replace the 319's but 320's and 321's are not replacable by the
186 Post contains links columba : Airbus is expecting more than 100 new orders for the A320NEO by the end of the month. Lufthansa and Turkish are named as the most likely customers. So
187 Post contains images EPA001 : I thought that an LH-order would be placed further in the future. So that would be a surprise. And we still do not know how much aircraft of which ty
188 Post contains links and images BlueShamu330s : I'm wondering if all the pent up anticipation and expectation for the C-series might be leaving folk vulnerable to disappointment. Whilst the smaller
189 JoeCanuck : That's just an option for airlines. It's still a 135 seat aircraft with very comfortable pitch. So far, there is only one customer for the 160 seat v
190 columba : Both airlines are about to order around 100 narrow body aircraft. This order will take place in the near future. Maybe you are thinking of the longha
191 Post contains images EPA001 : Not really. I guess it is just me having for some reason my mind set on a later date for the (predominantly) NB-order from LH.
192 Post contains links and images wilco737 : According to this article the airplanes have been ordered already. Total worth 9 billion Euros. http://www.merkur-online.de/lokales/...0-weniger-mitar
193 Post contains images EPA001 : Your guess is as good as mine. Or better, I trust your guesses better then mine if LH is the subject. But it stated quite convincing that the orders
194 Post contains images Stitch : Boeing has two UFO MAX orders - 22 frames on 01-Oct-2012 and 35 on 21-Dec-2012. Airbus has a UFO order for 32 A321-200s, 16 A320-200s and 12 A319-100
195 Aircellist : Does that sound like a future Paris air show announcement?
196 Post contains images wilco737 : Well, the 340s need a replacement as well. And anything is possible, but I think got the 777X had high chances. Could be the LH orders, but now sure.
197 douglasyxz : AERO INTERNATIONAL, Germany's leading magazine of civil aviation, quotes US media sources about LX getting 6x 777ER as a replacement for their oldest
198 Stitch : What's the LH Group's policy on aircraft leasing? If they do choose the 777-300ER for LX, could they lease or would it be a buy?
199 columba : Could be it. 35 sounds like a number LH would order. That is also my impression I think more of a 777/787 mix.
200 douglasyxz : LH has been doing both, the majority of aircarft is bought indeed.
201 seahawk : 777X would fit to LHs way of operating. They could be launch customer. In the meantime the oldest A340 could be replaced by 777s and I am sure that co
202 Post contains images wilco737 : That is good news for LX, but to be honest I am a little surprised as LX only owns Airbus and their crews are easily to be interchanged. Introducing
203 Post contains links and images Baschiiii : I guess it just got official Occording to Bloomberg, LH is ordering: 70 A320/321 NEO 30 A320/321 6 B77W for Siwss 2 A380 Source: http://www.bloomberg.
204 Post contains images wilco737 : A lot of Airbus again. But that was somehow expected. The 2 A380's surprises me a lot. I heard rumours said that it is a little too big for LH needs,
205 Post contains images autothrust : I know from a source in LX they will get definitve the 777-300 and i'am being corrected. However it still doesn't any sense to me. Let's wait what the
206 Post contains links and images wilco737 : As it looks like the order is confirmed a new thread has been started. Please continue here: LH Buys 100 A320, 2 A380, 6 77W (by FlyingAY Mar 14 2013
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