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Lufthansa Looking For 108 New Aircraft  
User currently offlineKarelXWB From Netherlands, joined Jul 2012, 10923 posts, RR: 32
Posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 53657 times:

Flightglobal reports that Lufthansa is in talk with both Boeing and Airbus to order up to 108 new aircraft: 100 short-haul and 8 long-haul units.

Quote:
#Lufthansa proposing to supervisory board to order 100 short-haul and eight long-haul aircraft, delivery in 2015-25.
Quote:
#Lufhansa in discussions with both #Airbus and #Boeing over order for 108 aircraft, overall value of $9bn.

What do you think, 737 Max / A320neo, A350 / 787 or even more VLA's?


Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity. And I'm not sure about the universe.
206 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinekaitak From Ireland, joined Aug 1999, 12411 posts, RR: 37
Reply 1, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 53644 times:

Eight long haul units seems to be a bit too small a number for LH, to introduce a new type; I think these would most likely be a top up of existing types - and not just one model either. Could be a combination of existing types, e.g. 6 A330s and 2 A380s.

As to short haul types, I'd eat my lederhosen if they chose the 737-MAX over the A320 NEO. But stranger things have happened and availability may be an issue.


User currently offlinena From Germany, joined Dec 1999, 10657 posts, RR: 9
Reply 2, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 53556 times:

I wonder if this is for the LH fleet, or also for Swiss/AUA and Brussels, all of which have many shorthaul planes to replace in that timeframe. 8 longhaul planes, that doesnt sound like the long awaited 787/A350 battle. More like a a follow-on order for a few A380s, A330s, 748s, maybe even all three types. And 100 shorthaulers for between 2015 - 2025, thats likely to replace the dozens of A319s, A320s and A321s built in the 90s/early 2000s. By 2015 all 737s are gone, and replacements for them and the A320s built around 1990 have been ordered already some time ago.

User currently offlinecolumba From Germany, joined Dec 2004, 7058 posts, RR: 4
Reply 3, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 53314 times:

8 747-8Is and 100 Airbus narrowbodies.....   No word of the CSeries though

P.S. Would love if they would order some 737Max as well, Lufthansa is not Lufthansa without the 737 !!!

[Edited 2013-02-19 13:01:11]


It will forever be a McDonnell Douglas MD 80 , Boeing MD 80 sounds so wrong
User currently offlineAviaco From Germany, joined May 2012, 34 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 53243 times:

That would add on to the 131 planes they already have on order until 2025....
A total of 239.


User currently onlineba319-131 From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2001, 8509 posts, RR: 55
Reply 5, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 53009 times:
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Quoting kaitak (Reply 1):
Eight long haul units seems to be a bit too small a number for LH, to introduce a new type

- Agreed, given, the 2015-2025 slot this has to favour 748 and or A380.

Quoting kaitak (Reply 1):
As to short haul types, I'd eat my lederhosen if they chose the 737-MAX over the A320 NEO

- Indeed, especially as LH already have a NEO order placed from a year or so back.

Quoting kaitak (Reply 1):
But stranger things have happened and availability may be an issue.

- True, let's not count chickens just yet!



111,732,3,4,5,7,8,BBJ,741,742,743,744,752,762,763,764,772,77L,773,77W,L15,D10,30,40,AB3,AB6,A312.313,319,320,321,332,333
User currently offlinePhilInBRN From Switzerland, joined Jun 2009, 250 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 52896 times:

My guess is for 8 77W for LX and a mix of A32S NEO and C-Series. Given the fact that the aging Fokkers and Avros of OS and SN respectively need to be eventually replaced I'm quite sure this order will include smaller aircraft.

User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 24917 posts, RR: 22
Reply 7, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 52801 times:

Quoting PhilInBRN (Reply 6):
My guess is for 8 77W for LX

A350 makes much more sense considering commonality issues.


User currently offlineAviaco From Germany, joined May 2012, 34 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 52744 times:

I think the eight new long haul aircraft will be follow on orders of an existing subfleet.
A330 or A380 or B747-8i, or a mix of it.
The decision which new aircraft type will be introduced will be made later this year, i guess.


User currently offlinePhilInBRN From Switzerland, joined Jun 2009, 250 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 52760 times:

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 7):
A350 makes much more sense considering commonality issues.
LX needs to replace six A343s soon as their leases expire. They will not get A350-1000s until around 2018. Furthermore Harry Hohmeister (LX CEO) has already indicated several times in interviews that he wants the new planes to arrive by 2015. According to these interviews it's also quite clear that he seems to favor the 77W as a A343 replacement. The 77W would give LX great potential to profitably grow its long haul network between 2015 and 2020.

[Edited 2013-02-19 13:39:19]

User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 30654 posts, RR: 84
Reply 10, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 52696 times:
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Quoting kaitak (Reply 1):
As to short haul types, I'd eat my lederhosen if they chose the 737-MAX over the A320 NEO. But stranger things have happened and availability may be an issue.

I am 110% sure they will not order the MAX because none of the LH Group operate the 737 anymore (they're either gone or going). Even if Boeing could offer a significant number of planes with earlier availability, I am 120% sure the group's airlines would all wait for additional A320neo slots beyond what they already have on order or lease interim lift.

There is 130% no chance of a 777-300ER order for LX. LH would order additional 747-8s and then hand off A340-600s to LX first.

[Edited 2013-02-19 13:41:09]

User currently offlinescbriml From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2003, 12407 posts, RR: 46
Reply 11, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 52681 times:
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Quoting kaitak (Reply 1):
I'd eat my lederhosen if they chose the 737-MAX over the A320 NEO

Especially as they've already ordered the neo.   



Time flies like an arrow, but fruit flies like a banana!
User currently offlinena From Germany, joined Dec 1999, 10657 posts, RR: 9
Reply 12, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 52693 times:

Quoting PhilInBRN (Reply 6):
My guess is for 8 77W for LX

99% no. LH will go 787 or A350, maybe the 777X has a small chance in 10 years from now. But not a small fleet of a type whose production end is at the horizon and that has been turned down twice already.
Beside that, as I said, a number of the shorthaul planes could very well be for Swiss (and Austrian, and Brussels, beside LH).


User currently offlinena From Germany, joined Dec 1999, 10657 posts, RR: 9
Reply 13, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 52582 times:

Quoting PhilInBRN (Reply 9):
LX needs to replace six A343s soon as their leases expire. They will not get A350-1000s until around 2018. Furthermore Harry Hohmeister (LX CEO) has already indicated several times in interviews that he wants the new planes to arrive by 2015. According to these interviews it's also quite clear that he seems to favor the 77W as a A343 replacement. The 77W would give LX great potential to profitably grow its long haul network between 2015 and 2020.

Swiss is premium heavy, and the 748I would provide high-yield passengers with superior comfort than the middle-of-the road 77W without a doubt.


User currently offlineautothrust From Switzerland, joined Jun 2006, 1592 posts, RR: 9
Reply 14, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 50677 times:

Quoting PhilInBRN (Reply 6):
My guess is for 8 77W

Not gonna happen. If they would buy 777 for LX or LH a subfleet of 8 would be to small to justify the introduction of a new type.

Quoting PhilInBRN (Reply 9):
They will not get A350-1000s

Who's talking about the A350-1000?? They could get much earlier some A350-900 with unprecedented economy over their existing fleet.


Quoting PhilInBRN (Reply 9):
Harry Hohmeister (LX CEO) has already indicated several times in interviews that he wants the new planes to arrive by 2015.

That's why they will probably lease some A340-6 until the A350 arrives.

Quoting PhilInBRN (Reply 9):
According to these interviews it's also quite clear that he seems to favor the 77W as a A343 replacement.

I really don't know where you get this myth. It's nowhere clear he seems to favor the 77W.

Quoting PhilInBRN (Reply 9):
The 77W would give LX great potential

True it's a efficient platform, but at what expense. What will pilots say about. And you forgot SR Technics which has ZERO experience with this Type.

Introducing a new "older" Type to Pilots and SR Technics, destroying commonality(where many LX pilots are happy about) between the fleet, while the next gen widebody is at the door doesn't make any sense. I bet SR Technics will be eagerly to get their hands on the A350's composite frame. A lot of their customers will get the A350 too.

Quoting na (Reply 12):
99% no.

     



“Faliure is not an option.”
User currently offlineJordanFittz From United States of America, joined Oct 2012, 8 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 50622 times:

I would say its inevitable LH will order the 350 at some point in the not to distant future. Unlikely to be part of this particular order that flight global are reporting on. At a guess id say they may order a batch of A333s as a stop gap until they can get there hands on the A350. Unlikely they'll go 777w in my opinion.

User currently offlineanfromme From Ireland, joined Feb 2012, 448 posts, RR: 11
Reply 16, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 49011 times:

Quoting kaitak (Reply 1):
As to short haul types, I'd eat my lederhosen if they chose the 737-MAX over the A320 NEO. But stranger things have happened and availability may be an issue.

I'd be pretty sure that a) LH placed options when they originally ordered their first batch of NEOs and b) there are still some slots available in the time beyond that, i.e. between the end of their first 30 NEO deliveries and 2025.
As for the long-haul decision, I agree they won't introduce a new type with an order for just 8, i.e. this won't be their long-awaited order for A350/787, but a top-up of either A330, 747-8i or A380 (or a mix thereof).



Flown on: A300B4, A310-200/-300, A319, A320-100/-200, A321-200, A330-200, A340-500/-600, A380-800, An-24, An-26, ATR42,
User currently offlineMCOflyer From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 8664 posts, RR: 15
Reply 17, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 48533 times:

I think A333E or 748I for the widebody and Neo for the narrowbody order.

KH



Never be afraid to stand up for who you are.
User currently offlineanfromme From Ireland, joined Feb 2012, 448 posts, RR: 11
Reply 18, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 48539 times:

Just found this at Bloomberg:

Quote:
The company said the aircraft order will be a blend of Airbus SAS and Boeing Co. airliners, while not disclosing the exact types.
http://mobile.bloomberg.com/news/201...uro-plane-purchase.html?cmpid=yhoo

Sounds like they're almost done negotiating and have a clear idea of the types and numbers involved.
MAX seems unlikely, so it's probably going to be NEO and some 747-8i, plus maybe 3 - 5 A380s (they should still have 3 options for the type). There's one 747-8i LH said they would likely re-order after they cancelled their order for an early frame that now stays with Boeing.
Then again - LH may surprise us with a mix of MAX and NEO, plus 747-8i/A380s; Lufthansa Technik would surely be providing maintenance for MAX anyway, and LH have been successfully operating 737 Classic and A32S side-by-side, as well as different engine types on the A32S family members. They also have plenty of pilots trained on 737 Classic for whom the transition to 737MAX shouldn't take too long. One catch: The 737s are supposed to leave the fleet by 2016, while MAX has an EIS of 2017 (if all goes well), and most early slots are already taken.



Flown on: A300B4, A310-200/-300, A319, A320-100/-200, A321-200, A330-200, A340-500/-600, A380-800, An-24, An-26, ATR42,
User currently offlineMCOflyer From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 8664 posts, RR: 15
Reply 19, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 47240 times:

Quoting anfromme (Reply 18):

If LH orders the 737 max, it will be somewhat of a surprise to me as they seem to favor Airbus with their recent orders for the Neo. They currently operate 39 737 300/500's of which I suspect the 100 plane narrowbody will replace. As most of you know, LH likes to keep things simple and going Boeing for their narrowbody fleet does the exact opposite. Yes they have classics right now, by why add costs when you can trim it??

KH



Never be afraid to stand up for who you are.
User currently offlinecolumba From Germany, joined Dec 2004, 7058 posts, RR: 4
Reply 20, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 45670 times:

So if this is going to be a blend of Airbus and Boeing aircraft and we know it will be for 100 short haul and 8 long haul aircraft it is very likely that the split will be 100 short haul aircraft for Airbus aircraft and the 8 long haul aircraft will go to Boeing.

For the 8 long haul aircraft there are two choices: 8 747-8Is for LH main line and even if many don´t believe it 8 777W for Swiss. From what I have read over the last few weeks I would not be surprised if it will be the later. Swiss wants the 777W. They need a bigger plane for their routes to Brazil. The 747-8I which was also briefly considered is too big. They don´t want 2nd hand A346s for various reasons, this option is of the table. That leaves only the 777W if they want a bigger plane in 2015. LH already has experience with the 777 with Austrian, Aero Logic and Lufthansa Cargo has them on order, too. It is not that the 777 will be an oddball within the LH group.

[Edited 2013-02-19 22:01:20]


It will forever be a McDonnell Douglas MD 80 , Boeing MD 80 sounds so wrong
User currently offlineusctrojan18 From United States of America, joined Feb 2013, 92 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 45201 times:

Would love to see some more 747-8i's no matter what airline. The 747 is a legend I really hope doesnt die like the DC-10 is just about to.

User currently offlinebehramjee From Canada, joined Aug 2003, 4756 posts, RR: 43
Reply 22, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 45164 times:

I would say 8 747-800s for the wide bodies and 100 A320NEOs family for the narrow body.

User currently offlinegjunnar From Germany, joined Sep 2001, 155 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 41026 times:

German air-industry newspage aero.de reports (unconfirmed!)

6x 777 for SWISS (most probably 77W)
2x A380 for LH

http://www.aero.de/news-16911/Luftha...12-operativen-Gewinnrueckgang.html

[Edited 2013-02-20 03:03:53]

User currently offlineKarelXWB From Netherlands, joined Jul 2012, 10923 posts, RR: 32
Reply 24, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 40753 times:

Quoting gjunnar (Reply 23):
2x A380 for LH

Seems like Lufthansa is very happy with the A380.



Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity. And I'm not sure about the universe.
User currently offlineRickNRoll From Afghanistan, joined Jan 2012, 785 posts, RR: 0
Reply 25, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 41811 times:

Looks like the 777 beats the 748 again.

User currently offline817Dreamliiner From Montserrat, joined Jul 2008, 2226 posts, RR: 1
Reply 26, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 41856 times:

Quoting gjunnar (Reply 23):
6x 777 for SWISS (most probably 77W)
2x A380 for LH

If that turns out to be true, that will be a bit disappointing for some here in this thread...



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User currently offlinena From Germany, joined Dec 1999, 10657 posts, RR: 9
Reply 27, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 42575 times:

Quoting gjunnar (Reply 23):

German air-industry newspage aero.de reports (unconfirmed!)

6x 777 for SWISS (most probably 77W)
2x A380 for LH

http://www.aero.de/news-16911/Luftha....html

That would definitely be a negative surprise for me if true. My most disliked widebody for Swiss   I sincerely hoped LH would have succeeded in avoiding 777 classics (ok, except the freighters, which will surely be great as the MD11 replacements available). The 77W seems to be the only plane in the size Swiss needs now. I think a ten year lease deal makes more sense then buying, because in the eraly 20s the 77W will technologically be what the A346 is now.

Anway, its Swiss, I fly LH, and they have the 748I thank god! I had hoped for some more of those though.
I expect many of the narrowbodies will be for Swiss then, too.

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 24):
Seems like Lufthansa is very happy with the A380.

They are very happy with both the A380 and the 748.


User currently offlineanfromme From Ireland, joined Feb 2012, 448 posts, RR: 11
Reply 28, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 42149 times:

Quoting MCOflyer (Reply 19):
If LH orders the 737 max, it will be somewhat of a surprise to me as they seem to favor Airbus with their recent orders for the Neo. They currently operate 39 737 300/500's of which I suspect the 100 plane narrowbody will replace. As most of you know, LH likes to keep things simple and going Boeing for their narrowbody fleet does the exact opposite.

Well, they're not really keeping things that simple - they ordered their last 737 Classics (by way of converting orders) in 1995. They had already been operating A320s for six years at that point.
Also, they're one of only two airlines to order the A380 and the 747-8i. Not to mention that while all other airlines seem to go with a single engine choice for their A320 family planes, LH went with CFM on their A319/A320 and IAE for their A321 fleet.
So I wouldn't put it beyond them to go with, say, 65 NEO (30 on order, plus 35 from the 100-frame contingent to be decided upon) and 65 MAX if they find that the mix suits them.

Quoting columba (Reply 20):
So if this is going to be a blend of Airbus and Boeing aircraft

Actually, I may have to go back on that statement - while Bloomberg quotes LH as stating that the order will be a mix of Airbus and Boeing, all other news reports and quotes I could find only stated that they are negotiating with Airbus and Boeing, which would still leave open the possibility of a 100% A or 100% B order.

Quoting columba (Reply 20):
we know it will be for 100 short haul and 8 long haul aircraft it is very likely that the split will be 100 short haul aircraft for Airbus aircraft and the 8 long haul aircraft will go to Boeing.

Just considering the long-haul order, I wouldn't be so sure it'd be 100% Boeing.
While I think LH is going to top up their 747-8i order by at least 1 (to bring it back to the 20 they originally ordered), they also still have three options on the A380 originally placed when they first ordered the plane (as far as I could find). I would imagine the conditions they got on those options are quite good, so I could definitely see a split of, say, 3 A380 and 5 747-8i, which would give them a total fleet size of 24 747-8i and 20 A380.

Quoting columba (Reply 20):
For the 8 long haul aircraft there are two choices: 8 747-8Is for LH main line and even if many don´t believe it 8 777W for Swiss. From what I have read over the last few weeks I would not be surprised if it will be the later. Swiss wants the 777W.

But they want it to replace their A340s - and they've got 15 of those. Also, the statements released by LH suggest that the 8 long-haul planes are to be used by LH itself. Even if a decision in favour of 777 was imminent at LX, which would help economics for a LH 777 order, along with the Austrian and LH Cargo/AeroLogic 777s, I think that 8 777s wouldn't be a realistic number for LH as they have 48 A340s (24 -300 and 24 -600).
Which is why I still think this 8-frame order is going to be 747-8i/A380 or a mix thereof.

Some press statements over the last few days also said that LH would decide on 787/A350 in autumn, so that's when I would expect the decision on any 777/777X/787/A350 for A340 replacement at LX and LH.

Quoting columba (Reply 20):
They need a bigger plane for their routes to Brazil. [...] the 777W if they want a bigger plane in 2015. LH already has experience with the 777 with Austrian, Aero Logic and Lufthansa Cargo has them on order, too. It is not that the 777 will be an oddball within the LH group.

Possibly, but as I stated above - 8 frames would not be a realistic number for LH or LX, never mind both of them combined. So I don't see any 777s at least in that 8-frame order - the order expected in autumn may be a different matter, though.



Flown on: A300B4, A310-200/-300, A319, A320-100/-200, A321-200, A330-200, A340-500/-600, A380-800, An-24, An-26, ATR42,
User currently onlineEPA001 From Netherlands, joined Sep 2006, 4705 posts, RR: 38
Reply 29, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 41893 times:
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Quoting RickNRoll (Reply 25):
Looks like the 777 beats the 748 again.

Well, since part of these wide-bodies are for Swiss, the choice seems logical if this is confirmed.

Quoting na (Reply 27):
They are very happy with both the A380 and the 748.

I guess they are. And good for them and us. More 4-holers in the sky is always a good thing in my book.  .


User currently offlineBongodog1964 From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2006, 3538 posts, RR: 3
Reply 30, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 41883 times:

LH as befitting a major airline with the interests of its shareholders in mind, will be scrupulously fair in evaluating the A320 NEO and 737 MAX side by side, looking at everything from purchase cost down to residual value in 20 years time.
When everything has been looked in to and the best deal calculated they will then






Think of the outrage in Hamburg if they buy Boeing  


User currently offlinePhilInBRN From Switzerland, joined Jun 2009, 250 posts, RR: 0
Reply 31, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 41832 times:

Quoting anfromme (Reply 28):
But they want it to replace their A340s - and they've got 15 of those.

Of the 15 frames currently in the fleet six need to be replaced quite soon as they are older and their leasing contracts expire. These six frames are

HB-JMJ (cn 150, built 1996)
HB-JMK (cn 169, built 1997)
HB-JML (cn 263, built 1999)
HB-JMM (cn 154, built 1996)
HB-JMN (cn 175, built 1997)
HB-JMO (cn 179, built 1997)

The other nine frames were built in 2003 and 2004. Therefore these planes will need to be replaced later on. My guess is that LH will look into the 777X as well as A350-1000 as a replacement for these aircrafts.


User currently offlinebrightcedars From Belgium, joined Nov 2004, 1288 posts, RR: 2
Reply 32, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 41443 times:

I think the 77W is perfectly suited for LX and a nice introduction to the wider LH group fleet. A carrier the size of LH cannot have exclusives, especially when they can have sub-fleets big enough to benefit from the pro's of both OEM's product lines.

This will open the door to the 777X for future replacements at all LH group airlines.

On the narrow-body front I think LH group is to stick with Airbus for now.



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User currently offlinescbriml From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2003, 12407 posts, RR: 46
Reply 33, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 41361 times:
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Quoting usctrojan18 (Reply 21):
The 747 is a legend I really hope doesnt die like the DC-10 is just about to.

It will. Just as every type does eventually.



Time flies like an arrow, but fruit flies like a banana!
User currently offlinejumpjet From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2005, 279 posts, RR: 0
Reply 34, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 41079 times:

Quoting scbriml (Reply 33):
Quoting usctrojan18 (Reply 21):
The 747 is a legend I really hope doesnt die like the DC-10 is just about to.

It will. Just as every type does eventually.

Sad, but very true....   


User currently offlineCiC From Germany, joined Jun 2010, 50 posts, RR: 0
Reply 35, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 40841 times:

Are there any 77W Production slots available ?
Maybe LH gets another huuuuuuuuuuuuuge Discount on more 748i to keep the production line ongoing...
I would love to see 748i with Swiss (and maybe Austrian)...

Or do they get a very good discount on the 763ER/W brand new, available now and giving good PR to cover a little the Nightmareliner's desaster?


User currently offlinefcogafa From United Kingdom, joined May 2008, 778 posts, RR: 0
Reply 36, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 40630 times:

Excellent call by PillinBRN against all the odds - could you advise this weeks winning lottery numbers too please?!

[Edited 2013-02-20 04:48:13]

User currently offlineDALCE From Netherlands, joined Feb 2007, 1677 posts, RR: 7
Reply 37, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 40468 times:

My hopes are that LX will get some 748i's as replacements. But it is more likely that LH gets new longhaul aircraft, and some LH metal will be transferred to LX. This can be 346 or even 343's ( which I don't hope ).


flown on : F50,F70,CR1,CR2,CR9,E75,143,AR8,AR1,733,735,736,73G,738,753,744,319,320,321,333,AB6.
User currently offlineCassi From Hungary, joined Apr 2010, 88 posts, RR: 0
Reply 38, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 40386 times:

From a recent interview with John Leahy:

"there are two A380 slots available by the end of 2015 and a few more in 2016."

LH could get those 2 A380s in less than 3 years if it really needs them.


User currently onlineB777LRF From Luxembourg, joined Nov 2008, 1308 posts, RR: 3
Reply 39, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 40210 times:

Quoting CiC (Reply 35):
Or do they get a very good discount on the 763ER/W brand new, available now and giving good PR to cover a little the Nightmareliner's desaster?

.... Oh dear, where to start? LH getting back in the 767 game or compensation for an aircraft they didn't order? On the other hand, better leave it alone.

Back on topic, there was a thought upstream of the wide-body order consisting of 3 x A380 and 5 x B748 option conversions. Makes perfect sense to me, so I'll be happy to throw my 0.02 cents in that pot. As for the narrow-body, I fully expect that LH Group will order both the neo and MAX. Partially because they're bound to be as close performance wise as the present generation is today, partially because they have large enough fleets to sustain it and partially because it will benefit LH Technik tremendously. Thus a split order, possibly a bit Airbus heavy, would not surprise me. Neither would it surprise me if the MAX order was assigned to either SN or OS, with LX and LH going neo.

Then, as we move into autumn, the A350/787 battle can be split down existing lines, with SN and OS to take the Boeing and LX and LH to take the Airbus. Nice and tidy.



From receips and radials over straight pipes to big fans - been there, done that, got the hearing defects to prove
User currently offlinerobffm2 From Germany, joined Dec 2006, 1115 posts, RR: 0
Reply 40, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 40069 times:

Quoting gjunnar (Reply 23):
German air-industry newspage aero.de reports (unconfirmed!)
6x 777 for SWISS (most probably 77W)
2x A380 for LH
http://www.aero.de/news-16911/Luftha....html

Interesting, still difficult to believe they would go with the 777.


User currently onlineba319-131 From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2001, 8509 posts, RR: 55
Reply 41, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 40021 times:
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Quoting PhilInBRN (Reply 31):
Of the 15 frames currently in the fleet six need to be replaced quite soon as they are older and their leasing contracts expire

- I doubt the leasing companie(s) have any takers lined up for these when they come off lease, no reason why they could not be extended until a suitable 787/A350 delivery is possible.



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User currently offlinejfk777 From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 8291 posts, RR: 7
Reply 42, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 40099 times:
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IF Lufthansa orders 777 for SWISS or itself that would be Boeing ulimate revenge. A330-300 seem to be th right replacement for A340's. The 8 long haul will probably be A380 and 748's.

User currently offlineLH422 From Germany, joined Sep 2010, 399 posts, RR: 0
Reply 43, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 39732 times:

Quoting gjunnar (Reply 23):
6x 777 for SWISS (most probably 77W)
2x A380 for LH

Interesting move on the 777. This would bring the LH A380 order up to the current SQ fleet of 19.

EK: 90 orders (31 so far)
SQ: 24 orders (19 so far)
QF: 20 orders (12 so far)
LH: 19 orders (10 so far)


User currently offlinePhilInBRN From Switzerland, joined Jun 2009, 250 posts, RR: 0
Reply 44, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 39556 times:

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 42):
A330-300 seem to be th right replacement for A340's.

In this case the A333 is not the ideal replacement. LX needs the range that the A343 provides to serve destinations such as GRU, JNB, HKG etc. It's also well known that Swiss wants to offer more capacity both in the passenger and cargo compartment. In my opinion the 77W fits these requirements best. Another key criteria is availability, as I've indicated in my post above, as six 340s need to be replaced rather sooner than later.

Quoting ba319-131 (Reply 41):
no reason why they could not be extended until a suitable 787/A350 delivery is possible.

Hohmeister has stated on several occasions that LX is not happy with the operating costs of their A340-300 fleet. The option of adding some A346s from LH has also been rejected with the same reasons in mind.


User currently offlinevfw614 From Germany, joined Dec 2001, 3964 posts, RR: 5
Reply 45, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 39443 times:

Quoting gjunnar (Reply 23):
German air-industry newspage aero.de reports (unconfirmed!)

I think "air-industry newspage" is a bit exaggerated.

And as of yesterday, LH was negotiating with Boeing and Airbus, so I doubt that they would confirm / leak information about a decision to an internet site.


User currently offlinena From Germany, joined Dec 1999, 10657 posts, RR: 9
Reply 46, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 39446 times:

In other (little) news LH is bringing back to service one of the stored early-built 744s. Aircraft in question is D-ABVD from 1990 according to skyliner-aviation.de.

User currently offlineLH422 From Germany, joined Sep 2010, 399 posts, RR: 0
Reply 47, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 38028 times:

Quoting na (Reply 46):
In other (little) news LH is bringing back to service one of the stored early-built 744s. Aircraft in question is D-ABVD from 1990 according to skyliner-aviation.de.

This invalidates my post All Lufthansa Widebodys Now Have Avod In Y (by LH422 Feb 7 2013 in Civil Aviation)


User currently offlinePanAm1971 From United States of America, joined Aug 2007, 391 posts, RR: 0
Reply 48, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 37756 times:

I'd love to see another order for 748's! The slots are avialable... LH has been happy with them (according to posts on this site) and they can put them to good, profitable use. Fingers crossed!

User currently offlineFerroviarius From Norway, joined Mar 2007, 224 posts, RR: 0
Reply 49, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 37125 times:

Quoting PhilInBRN (Reply 6):
My guess is for 8 77W for LX

Ohnooooo, pleaeaeaease, keep LH / LX / OA / SK 777-free. The 3-3-3 is so un-comfortable as compared to 2-4-2 and the 777 is an awfully loud aircraft compared to RRed 332s / 333s or 342 / 343s for those sitting inside.
There are a number of second hand 345s available, which LX could get at a really cheap price - since nobody wants to have them -, it seems.

Best,

Ferroviarius, not in the airline industry, just a somewhat frequent traveller and happy LX customer.


User currently offlinephxa340 From United States of America, joined Mar 2012, 885 posts, RR: 1
Reply 50, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 36892 times:

Quoting vfw614 (Reply 45):

Sorry to burst your bubble but it was Lufthansa that pubically stated it would be a blend of both Boeing and Airbus.

I also disagree with everyone saying the MAX doesn't have a chance, LH has a huge fleet and introducing the MAX would make sense under the right circumstances.


User currently offlinedrgmobile From Canada, joined Aug 2006, 611 posts, RR: 0
Reply 51, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 36814 times:

I find it very surprising that only Boeing and Airbus were named for the narrowbodies. Particularly since they are looking to phase out 737-300s and -500s and they already have C-Series on order, I would have thought the narrowbody order would be split.

There is a North American carrier I have in mind that I expect will go that route to modernize its replace its current mainline narrowbody fleet in the next year or two.


User currently offlineflyglobal From Germany, joined Mar 2008, 573 posts, RR: 3
Reply 52, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 36629 times:

Quoting CiC (Reply 35):
Are there any 77W Production slots available ?
Maybe LH gets another huuuuuuuuuuuuuge Discount on more 748i to keep the production line ongoing...
I would love to see 748i with Swiss (and maybe Austrian)...

Or do they get a very good discount on the 763ER/W brand new, available now and giving good PR to cover a little the Nightmareliner's desaster?



I 'tell you' guys: (friendly of course): Maybe Boeing will give LH some extra slots on an early delivery date if LH will buy the 777 passenger version to his fleet. Because for Boeing with those few frames they will get the foot in the door for their future planes, especially the 777-9x and probably 787 derivatives.
I don't believe that LH wants to be an all Airbus company. Also they need to keep Airbus (as well as Boeing) under steam for negotiation purpose when the big order for the 343 and 346 replacement comes next year.

Probably along with the 6 777-300ER in speculation they will add another 4 Freighters to replace the next MD11s. Pure speculation though.

Technically they may convert some of the 748i options into those 6 777 orders. I would even guess that LHs price tag for the 748i is lower then most customers pay for their 777s.

Regarding the narrow bodies I wouldn't give the Max a chance.

Regards

Flyglobal


User currently offlinevfw614 From Germany, joined Dec 2001, 3964 posts, RR: 5
Reply 53, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 36136 times:

Quoting phxa340 (Reply 50):
Sorry to burst your bubble but it was Lufthansa that pubically stated it would be a blend of both Boeing and Airbus.

I think you are referring to "Lufthansa Group", whereas I was talking about one the group's smaller subsidiaries, Swiss. As far as I am aware, noone at Lufthansa has publicly stated that Swiss will get a blend of both Boeing and Airbus. Of course Lufthansa will avoid going all-Airbus across the whole group of companies. But when it comes to the stand-alone smaller subsidiaries, such a diversifaction is not necessarily helpful (particularly as leverage in negotiations is guaranteed by the principle of centralized purchasing anyway).


User currently offlineanfromme From Ireland, joined Feb 2012, 448 posts, RR: 11
Reply 54, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 36045 times:

Quoting flyglobal (Reply 52):
Maybe Boeing will give LH some extra slots on an early delivery date if LH will buy the 777 passenger version to his fleet.

Possibly, but I don't see that happening this time around. If LH are going to buy 777, they'd need more than 8 frames, especially if they want to cover LX as well.
There's another widebody order expected for autumn - that's when 777/777x/787/A350 will be in play.
But 8 frames only - I'd be very surprised indeed if that isn't going to be top-ups of types they already have.

[Edited 2013-02-20 08:27:22]


Flown on: A300B4, A310-200/-300, A319, A320-100/-200, A321-200, A330-200, A340-500/-600, A380-800, An-24, An-26, ATR42,
User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 30654 posts, RR: 84
Reply 55, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 36038 times:
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Quoting anfromme (Reply 54):
If LH are going to buy 777, they'd need more than 8 frames, especially if they want to cover LX as well.

It could just be the first tranche or an interim lift decision.

British Airways has a shedload of 747-400s to replace beyond their A380-800 order, but they started with a small (six frames?) 777-300ER order and have slowly been adding to it (via leases and direct buys).


User currently offlineSEPilot From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 6837 posts, RR: 46
Reply 56, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 34997 times:

If it is true that LH is going to buy both Boeing and Airbus planes, and that deliveries are to start in 2015, that leads me to believe that the narrowbodies will be A320NEO's and the widebodies will include 748i's. I base this on the belief that 8 widebodies is not enough of an order to be for a type they are not already flying, and that deliveries starting in 2015 strongly suggests that they are buying types that are now flying, or reasonably close to flying. I see no signs that they are going to buy the MAX; that leaves the 748i as the only Boeing that seems to fit. And 8 aircraft is not enough to be a 787 or A350 order.


The problem with making things foolproof is that fools are so doggone ingenious...Dan Keebler
User currently onlineB777LRF From Luxembourg, joined Nov 2008, 1308 posts, RR: 3
Reply 57, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 34775 times:

Quoting Stitch (Reply 55):

British Airways has a shedload of 747-400s to replace beyond their A380-800 order, but they started with a small (six frames?) 777-300ER order and have slowly been adding to it (via leases and direct buys).

Difference being, BA had a shedload of 777s in their fleet already.

I do not believe for a second that LH will ever include the current generation 777 in the passenger fleet of any airline within the Group. Period.

If the wide-body order is not a question of exercising B748 and A380 orders, my second guess is we'll see an additional A330 order - perhaps the newest HGW model - to replace older A340s.



From receips and radials over straight pipes to big fans - been there, done that, got the hearing defects to prove
User currently offlineLOWS From Austria, joined Oct 2011, 1117 posts, RR: 1
Reply 58, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 34551 times:

Quoting B777LRF (Reply 57):
I do not believe for a second that LH will ever include the current generation 777 in the passenger fleet of any airline within the Group. Period.

Sorry to have to do this but OS operates 772s, and LH decided to keep them after they bought OS.


User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 30654 posts, RR: 84
Reply 59, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 34442 times:
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Quoting B777LRF (Reply 57):
I do not believe for a second that LH will ever include the current generation 777 in the passenger fleet of any airline within the Group. Period.

Hey, I'm the fellow who has long been on record as believing that LH (and by extension, the LH group) would prefer to be an all-Airbus operator and the only reason they ordered the 747-8 and 777F is because they need something in that market and Airbus does not offer an option.  
Quoting LOWS (Reply 58):
Sorry to have to do this but OS operates 772s, and LH decided to keep them after they bought OS.

One could argue the 777-200ER is not the "current generation" of 777 - the 777-200LR has taken over that role.


User currently onlineB777LRF From Luxembourg, joined Nov 2008, 1308 posts, RR: 3
Reply 60, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 34251 times:

Quoting LOWS (Reply 58):
Sorry to have to do this but OS operates 772s, and LH decided to keep them after they bought OS.

Point taken, and sorry for being unclear. My intention was to say that LH Group will not include the current 777 passenger offerings in any future orders, I am aware OS operate a small number of ERs. Appreciate the cover offered by Stitch; hadn't thought about that angle  

[Edited 2013-02-20 09:55:36]


From receips and radials over straight pipes to big fans - been there, done that, got the hearing defects to prove
User currently offlineanfromme From Ireland, joined Feb 2012, 448 posts, RR: 11
Reply 61, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 34237 times:

Quoting Stitch (Reply 55):
It could just be the first tranche or an interim lift decision.

Possibly, but if it's true that they are deciding on a bigger widebody order in autumn I would expect them to already be in talks with Boeing and Airbus about these anyway; and I'd be very surprised if a package of 777/777X wasn't on the table during those talks.
Thus, I think it would make more sense to just top up existing fleet types at the moment (probably by way of converting orders). They'd be in a much better position to make far-reaching fleet decisions regarding the introduction of new types later on in autumn; plus they could come up with much neater packages for interim lift (e.g. buyback deals on 777 as part of a 777X deal).

Quoting Stitch (Reply 55):
British Airways has a shedload of 747-400s to replace beyond their A380-800 order, but they started with a small (six frames?) 777-300ER order and have slowly been adding to it (via leases and direct buys).

True, but as B777LRF already pointed out, BA (just like AA, who also only ordered a relatively small number of 777-300ERs initially) did already operate 777s (even with GE90s) before their first 777-300ER order.
For LH, the 777 would be a completely new type.

Quoting B777LRF (Reply 57):
I do not believe for a second that LH will ever include the current generation 777 in the passenger fleet of any airline within the Group. Period.

You might want to check Austrian Airlines' current fleet  



Flown on: A300B4, A310-200/-300, A319, A320-100/-200, A321-200, A330-200, A340-500/-600, A380-800, An-24, An-26, ATR42,
User currently onlineB777LRF From Luxembourg, joined Nov 2008, 1308 posts, RR: 3
Reply 62, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 34203 times:

Quoting anfromme (Reply 61):
You might want to check Austrian Airlines' current fleet

Gotcha dude, but just for arguments sake it wasn't LH Group who ordered those 777s  



From receips and radials over straight pipes to big fans - been there, done that, got the hearing defects to prove
User currently offlinecolumba From Germany, joined Dec 2004, 7058 posts, RR: 4
Reply 63, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 34135 times:

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 42):
IF Lufthansa orders 777 for SWISS or itself that would be Boeing ulimate revenge. A330-300 seem to be th right replacement for A340's. The 8 long haul will probably be A380 and 748's.

Why would it be ? Swiss has 14 A333 and 2 more on order, they are very pleased with it. As I stated before Swiss is looking for a larger aircraft to replace some of their older A340s not all of them. They need more capacity on their routes to Brazil and the 77W is the best choice for them as both the A380 and 747-8I are too large for them and the A350-1000 will not be available for some time.

One more argument that this will be for the 777 and not the 747 is that according to the Chief Captain of Lufthansa´s 747 fleet is that they plan to order new long haul aircraft for LH in the third quarter of 2013 and that this order could also contain more 747-8Is.
Swiss is in need for new aircraft soon and this order is being discussed for some time. For Swiss´s need the 777-300 is the right aircraft at this time.

[Edited 2013-02-20 10:12:58]


It will forever be a McDonnell Douglas MD 80 , Boeing MD 80 sounds so wrong
User currently offlineDouglasyxz From Germany, joined Jan 2013, 95 posts, RR: 0
Reply 64, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 33081 times:

I don't see LH ordering now and so few 777 for LX. It was mentioned not too long ago that LX had operated LX planes with Edelweiss pilots and FA just because of reduction of overtime of their own staff. A small number of 777 among their all-Airbus lang-haul fleet would cause a serious impact to their flexibility in crew-planning. That makes no sense at all to me. Sorry for all 777-fellows and regardless of excellent fuel-efficiency but I can't see this happen with LX now and for the order mentioned.

I do agree with all those who predict a top-up of models currently used by LH group. The big order in autumn is definitely a different story.


User currently offlinesweair From Sweden, joined Nov 2011, 1813 posts, RR: 0
Reply 65, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 32938 times:

I think Boeing will lose most EU airlines, Boeing has no good name in EU now at all. Nationalism is getting stronger as the economy tanks more and more.

User currently offlinecolumba From Germany, joined Dec 2004, 7058 posts, RR: 4
Reply 66, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 32582 times:

Quoting sweair (Reply 65):
I think Boeing will lose most EU airlines, Boeing has no good name in EU now at all. Nationalism is getting stronger as the economy tanks more and more.

Yes, but the number of sales especially for the 777 and 787 say otherwise......



It will forever be a McDonnell Douglas MD 80 , Boeing MD 80 sounds so wrong
User currently offlineSRMD11 From Switzerland, joined Jan 2007, 58 posts, RR: 0
Reply 67, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 32157 times:

You can count on me... 6 times 777W's for SWISS. Needed for New York, Sao Paulo and Bangkok route. Later, more 777 join - maybe... That's because a 747-8 Combi won't be built.

User currently offlinesweair From Sweden, joined Nov 2011, 1813 posts, RR: 0
Reply 68, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 31758 times:

The 787 backlog is enormous, so count that out, the 777 has not a huge but not a very small backlog either, the 748 has a very short backlog, don´t know about Airbus backlogs, don't really follow them.

If these framed would be needed in 2 years time the options get few in the end. We have a mega order bubble in aviation IMO, sort of like housing prices 2006..


User currently offlinecolumba From Germany, joined Dec 2004, 7058 posts, RR: 4
Reply 69, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 31204 times:

What I have read so far, LH is indeed talking with Boeing over the 737Max - that does not have to mean anything but LH would be silly not to get a second offer before signing an order with Airbus right away.

It really seems to be that LX will get 6 777-300ERs which will be delivered in 2015 and 2016. Boeing has offered LH production slots that are currently being reservered by Hong Kong Airlines for 777Fs



It will forever be a McDonnell Douglas MD 80 , Boeing MD 80 sounds so wrong
User currently offlinesweair From Sweden, joined Nov 2011, 1813 posts, RR: 0
Reply 70, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 31060 times:

What aircraft has slots open for a 2015 delivery? That should be the question.

User currently offlineplanesmart From New Zealand, joined Dec 2004, 871 posts, RR: 0
Reply 71, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 30525 times:

Commercial aircraft funding and leasing is more similar to commercial property than motor vehicles. It is highly complex, made more exciting by international, as well as domestic tax regimes, and politics (boardroom and the other type). Funding is usually, but not always syndicated, bearing some similarities to insurance. Most syndicates spread risks across countries, types and airlines. There can even be multiple syndicates involved with one aircraft (airframe and engines), let alone an order for multiple aircraft.

And just because an airline signs a 10 year lease, it does not mean that the lease costs are a straight line for that period, or that the composition of the syndicates will remain unchanged.

Providing there is economic life in the airframe, and the operator can still access competitively priced spares, support, and skilled staff, extending leases can be very advantageous. For example, the lease can be extended at a lower annual cost, and depending on the term, the airline may be offered a payments holiday, and / or a $ contribution to an interior upgrade.

It is common for financiers to package new aircraft with old, so the syndicate (minus those who want to exit), have an interest in the new and old aircraft.

Such transactions are influenced significantly by tax considerations, both for manufacturers, operators, financiers and syndicates.

At the end of the day, it's about overall ownership cost. You my be baffled by the apparent higher cost say of an older aircraft type, versus new, but that could simply be down to an element of legal transfer charging.


User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 24917 posts, RR: 22
Reply 72, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 29851 times:

Quoting columba (Reply 63):
Swiss is in need for new aircraft soon and this order is being discussed for some time. For Swiss´s need the 777-300 is the right aircraft at this time.

As mentioned before, I think the A350 makes more sense for LX to maintain Airbus commonality advantages. If the problem is the need for additonal capacity on certain routes before the A350 is available, why not just add a few more A333s to permit frequency on those routes to be increased? They could be leased pending the A350's arrival. Operating a few additional flights a week with an existing type may be cheaper than adding a small number of an entirely new type with all the training, maintenance and other issues that would entail.


User currently offlinePhilly65 From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 57 posts, RR: 0
Reply 73, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 29790 times:

Isn't the 77W considered old technology? Why not hold out until the A350 or other next generation twin aisles. I am sure the 77Ws will be given away as bridge to the 77X.

User currently offlineFyano773 From Mexico, joined Mar 2004, 784 posts, RR: 1
Reply 74, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 29738 times:

Quoting B777LRF (Reply 60):
Point taken, and sorry for being unclear. My intention was to say that LH Group will not include the current 777 passenger offerings in any future orders, I am aware OS operate a small number of ERs. Appreciate the cover offered by Stitch; hadn't thought about that angle

Any future orders? May be not, but certainly they plan to add more T7s within the group:


CEO: Austrian to add two 777s, increase capacity 25%


User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 30654 posts, RR: 84
Reply 75, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 29767 times:
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Quoting Philly65 (Reply 73):
Isn't the 77W considered old technology? Why not hold out until the A350 or other next generation twin aisles.

It can still be a money-making machine and in the time you wait for an A350-1000 or 777-9X, you could be generating plenty of cash with a 777-300ER.


User currently offlinecolumba From Germany, joined Dec 2004, 7058 posts, RR: 4
Reply 76, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 29561 times:

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 72):
As mentioned before, I think the A350 makes more sense for LX to maintain Airbus commonality advantages. If the problem is the need for additonal capacity on certain routes before the A350 is available, why not just add a few more A333s to permit frequency on those routes to be increased? They could be leased pending the A350's arrival. Operating a few additional flights a week with an existing type may be cheaper than adding a small number of an entirely new type with all the training, maintenance and other issues that would entail.
Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 72):
Isn't the 77W considered old technology? Why not hold out until the A350 or other next generation twin aisles. I am sure the 77Ws will be given away as bridge to the 77X.

As mentioned before, Swiss is looking for a larger aircraft now. The A350-900 is too small for their needs and the -1000 still a few years away. The 777W for them is the only option if they want a larger plane by 2015.

The reason why LH has not ordered the A350 or the 787 just yet is that they want to see what Boeing does with the 777X. From what I hear LH is very interested in the 777X.



It will forever be a McDonnell Douglas MD 80 , Boeing MD 80 sounds so wrong
User currently offlinePanHAM From Germany, joined May 2005, 9181 posts, RR: 29
Reply 77, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 29573 times:

There's an interview with Mr. Frantz in today's issue of FAZ and he said that the order for new long range jets will be decided this year. The reporter asked about the 777 and of course did get no answer other than that the decision is pending


E's passed on! That parrot is no more! He has ceased to be! E's expired and gone to meet 'is maker!
User currently offlineflood From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 1381 posts, RR: 1
Reply 78, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 29109 times:

Lufthansa Set To Buy Six Boeing 777-300ERs For Swiss:
http://www.aviationweek.com/Article....l/avd_02_21_2013_p03-01-550951.xml


User currently offlinePanHAM From Germany, joined May 2005, 9181 posts, RR: 29
Reply 79, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 28920 times:

The interesting part in that article is that the supervisory board will decide how the narrow body order will be split between Boeing and Airbus.


E's passed on! That parrot is no more! He has ceased to be! E's expired and gone to meet 'is maker!
User currently offlineflood From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 1381 posts, RR: 1
Reply 80, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 28815 times:

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 79):
The interesting part in that article is that the supervisory board will decide how the narrow body order will be split between Boeing and Airbus.

I'm still a little skeptical of a split narrowbody order. Didn't LH state just a few months ago they were seeking to streamline and reduce the number of types and engines in their fleet? As was suggested with the 777s, perhaps availability again plays a big role.


User currently offlinena From Germany, joined Dec 1999, 10657 posts, RR: 9
Reply 81, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 28613 times:

Quoting Stitch (Reply 75):
It can still be a money-making machine and in the time you wait for an A350-1000 or 777-9X, you could be generating plenty of cash with a 777-300ER.

If you are clever and lease the plane for 8 or 10 years perhaps, oand if you install the infamous 10-abreast cattle class onboard. But when A350-1000 and 777X come the 77W will suffer very high depreciation.


User currently offlinekaitak From Ireland, joined Aug 1999, 12411 posts, RR: 37
Reply 82, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 28516 times:

Quoting na (Reply 81):
If you are clever and lease the plane for 8 or 10 years perhaps, oand if you install the infamous 10-abreast cattle class onboard

I sincerely hope LX (nearly wrote SR!) won't be going down the 10-abreast route! Surely the 77W will give them enough extra capacity without needing to go 10 abreast!

Good news for LX!


User currently offlineanfromme From Ireland, joined Feb 2012, 448 posts, RR: 11
Reply 83, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 28519 times:

Quoting flood (Reply 78):
Lufthansa Set To Buy Six Boeing 777-300ERs For Swiss:
http://www.aviationweek.com/Article....l/avd_02_21_2013_p03-01-550951.xml

That rumour seems to be getting some traction now. I'd still be surprised if it happened that way, but let's see - sure keeps the suspense up...



Flown on: A300B4, A310-200/-300, A319, A320-100/-200, A321-200, A330-200, A340-500/-600, A380-800, An-24, An-26, ATR42,
User currently offlineanfromme From Ireland, joined Feb 2012, 448 posts, RR: 11
Reply 84, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 28492 times:

Just found the FAZ interview online. In it, Franz says this:

Quote:
Während jetzt der Ersatz von unseren Airbus A320- und Boeing 737-Flugzeugen ansteht, werden wir demnächst über die Nachfolger-Langstreckenmodelle von A330 und A340 entscheiden.

Translation:

While we are presently looking at the replacement of our A320 and 737 planes, we are going to decide about the replacement of our long-haul types A330 and A340 a bit later on.

Unless he's really splitting hairs here - 6 77W for Swiss would replace A340, but that's not really the big decision about replacing the whole A340 fleet in the LH Group - I think that for the 8 frame-order, this statement points at a top-up of long-haul planes that are already in the fleet.
I'll admit this is open to interpretation, though.

He also stated that no decision about types has been made yet and negotiations with Airbus and Boeing are ongoing.

Source (in German)

[Edited 2013-02-21 03:16:20]


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User currently offlineZRH From Switzerland, joined Nov 1999, 5566 posts, RR: 36
Reply 85, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 28402 times:

Quoting flood (Reply 78):
Lufthansa Set To Buy Six Boeing 777-300ERs For Swiss:

I actually only believe it when I see the birds in SWISS livery. To have an extra pilot corps for only 6 frames makes absolutely no sense. Especially when you also consider the pilot shortage they already have. They would lose flexibility.


User currently offlineHeavierthanair From Switzerland, joined Oct 2000, 790 posts, RR: 0
Reply 86, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 28037 times:

G´day

If Swiss is really that desperate to get six larger aircraft to raise capacity on some routes and to replace their oldest A 343´s coming off lease then I am sure Airbus could/will offer an interim lease of A 346´s to cover this requirement. Enough of those in good condition are available. While these are thirstier than new 773 their fixed costs would be substantially lower, and they would offer commonality with the existing fleet not adding additional headaches crewing them. Oddball and surely expensive 773´s could be avoided until the replacements for the 333/343´s come in before the end of the decade.  

I for one will avoid flying those if they come with 10 abreast,    I´d rather detour and fly their "sisters" product even if that´s a good ole 346   



Cheers

Peter



"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe." (Albert Einstein, 1879
User currently offlineJerseyFlyer From United Kingdom, joined May 2007, 638 posts, RR: 0
Reply 87, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 27825 times:

The Aviation Week artricle is very detailed and clear (although of course may not be correct):

"Lufthansa is close to placing an order for six Boeing 777-300ERs that will be allocated to its Swiss International Air Lines subsidiary.....

Lufthansa is expected to make a broader decision for next generation aircraft, such as the Airbus A350 or the Boeing 787, later this year. That decision will mainly address the replacement need for the German airline’s 48 A340-300s/-600s. Part of this larger order also could include fleet needs for Swiss and Austrian. In addition to the four 777s, Austrian operates a fleet of six aging 767-300ERs....

Lufthansa, which recently reduced its Boeing 747-8 commitment from 20 aircraft to 19, also is understood to be planning an order for two Airbus A380s. The airline already has placed orders for 17."

I am surprised not to see at least 1 B748, given the strong hint when LH cancelled one of their initial 20 recently. But if this is correct, they will end up with 19 each B748 and A388.


User currently offlineSEPilot From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 6837 posts, RR: 46
Reply 88, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 27623 times:

Quoting Heavierthanair (Reply 86):
then I am sure Airbus could/will offer an interim lease of A 346´s to cover this requirement.

Where would Airbus get them? The line is closed, and to the best of my knowledge there are not six unemployed A346's floating around.



The problem with making things foolproof is that fools are so doggone ingenious...Dan Keebler
User currently offlineHeavierthanair From Switzerland, joined Oct 2000, 790 posts, RR: 0
Reply 89, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 27580 times:

G´day

Quoting SEPilot (Reply 88):
Where would Airbus get them?

Airbus are taking back some from Virgin Atlantic, also Thai´s are available, likely others, all in fairly good shape.

Cheers

Peter



"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe." (Albert Einstein, 1879
User currently offlineanfromme From Ireland, joined Feb 2012, 448 posts, RR: 11
Reply 90, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 27443 times:

Quoting SEPilot (Reply 88):
Where would Airbus get them? The line is closed, and to the best of my knowledge there are not six unemployed A346's floating around.
Airbus Asset Management lists exactly six unemployed A340-600 as being or becoming available for lease/sale:
MSN 383
MSN 391
MSN 416 (incidentally the only A340-600 I've flown on so far)
MSN 449
MSN 371
MSN 376
All six are ex Virgin planes. The first four (delivered 2002) are available immediately (for sale/lease), while the last two (delivered 2001) will become available in July and October (for sale only), respectively.
So it's definitely possible to source six A340-600 from Airbus directly; you can probably source a few more if you talk to Thai, ILFC and others.

Quoting JerseyFlyer (Reply 87):
The Aviation Week artricle is very detailed and clear (although of course may not be correct):

Well, it claims 6 777-300ER and 2 A380. That's as much detail as it gives, quoting anonymous sources.

I'm still doubtful about this, I have to admit - as Heavierthanair pointed out: "Oddball and surely expensive 773´s could be avoided until the replacements for the 333/343´s come in before the end of the decade"

[Edited 2013-02-21 06:41:50]


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User currently offlineSEPilot From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 6837 posts, RR: 46
Reply 91, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 27045 times:

Quoting anfromme (Reply 90):
I'm still doubtful about this, I have to admit - as Heavierthanair pointed out: "Oddball and surely expensive 773´s could be avoided until the replacements for the 333/343´s come in before the end of the decade"

But if they need to replace them now, due to lease expiration, there is not a lot of choice, although as anfromme points out there are in fact six available A346's. But they would be more expensive to operate than brand new 77W's. And while 77W's built today are going to suffer in comparison to A3510's and 777X's to be built in the future, availability will keep the 77W values high. A new aircraft will only save operating costs if you can get your hands on it and fly it (and pay for it.) 77W's will continue to be in demand, even if new ones are not, for a long time.



The problem with making things foolproof is that fools are so doggone ingenious...Dan Keebler
User currently offlineanfromme From Ireland, joined Feb 2012, 448 posts, RR: 11
Reply 92, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 26883 times:

Quoting SEPilot (Reply 91):
But if they need to replace them now, due to lease expiration, there is not a lot of choice,

I'm pretty sure the lead-time on any of the A340-600s that Airbus have available is much shorter than the lead-time on any newly-ordered 77W.

Quoting SEPilot (Reply 91):
But they would be more expensive to operate than brand new 77W's.

Yep, but the A340-600 are available right now, require next to no additional pilot qualification within LX, and cost a lot less to purchase than brand new 77W.

Quoting SEPilot (Reply 91):
And while 77W's built today are going to suffer in comparison to A3510's and 777X's to be built in the future, availability will keep the 77W values high. A new aircraft will only save operating costs if you can get your hands on it and fly it (and pay for it.) 77W's will continue to be in demand, even if new ones are not, for a long time.

Quite possibly, but I still don't see why LH would order 6 (or even 8) oddball 77W now if they're going to order A350/787/77X in the autumn anyway. It would be much easier (and probably cheaper in terms of negotiating clout) to come up with a comprehensive package of interim 77Ws as part of that bigger order. Much like SQ for instance arranged interim A330s when they placed their A350 order.



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User currently offlineindcwby From United States of America, joined Dec 2010, 135 posts, RR: 0
Reply 93, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 26864 times:

So question:

When I hear Short Haul, the A320/B737s don't come to mind. Per their fleet site,

http://konzern.lufthansa.com/en/fleet.html

They define ERJ/CRJ/ATR/DH8s as Short Haul aircraft while A320/B737s are Medium Haul. So, could the be looking for smaller aircraft instead?


User currently offlineAustrianZRH From Austria, joined Aug 2007, 1376 posts, RR: 0
Reply 94, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 26810 times:

Quoting kaitak (Reply 82):
I sincerely hope LX (nearly wrote SR!) won't be going down the 10-abreast route! Surely the 77W will give them enough extra capacity without needing to go 10 abreast!

I hope so too but I fear they will. They have 17.0" seats in Y on their A340, 10 abreast in a 77W would result in the same seat width. And bean counters have a tendency to stuff as many seats as possible into their planes...



WARNING! The post above should be taken with a grain of salt! Furthermore, it may be slightly biased towards A.
User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 30654 posts, RR: 84
Reply 95, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 26796 times:
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Quoting anfromme (Reply 92):
Quite possibly, but I still don't see why LH would order 6 (or even 8) oddball 77W now if they're going to order A350/787/77X in the autumn anyway. It would be much easier (and probably cheaper in terms of negotiating clout) to come up with a comprehensive package of interim 77Ws as part of that bigger order. Much like SQ for instance arranged interim A330s when they placed their A350 order.

Perhaps LH (and/or the Group) has (have) internally chosen the 787 and 777X for their widebody replacement and these 77Ws are that interim option for LX, whom needs larger lift "now"?


User currently offlineSEPilot From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 6837 posts, RR: 46
Reply 96, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 26701 times:

Quoting indcwby (Reply 93):

They define ERJ/CRJ/ATR/DH8s as Short Haul aircraft while A320/B737s are Medium Haul. So, could the be looking for smaller aircraft instead?

But they said that they were talking to Airbus and Boeing. They don't build any smaller aircraft.

Quoting Stitch (Reply 95):
Perhaps LH (and/or the Group) has (have) internally chosen the 787 and 777X for their widebody replacement and these 77Ws are that interim option for LX, whom needs larger lift "now"?

That would make sense. I certainly don't see them ordering 6 77W's now unless they have already made a decision that Boeing widebodies are going to play a big part in their future. If they have then it makes no sense to do anything else.



The problem with making things foolproof is that fools are so doggone ingenious...Dan Keebler
User currently offlineSCAT15F From United States of America, joined Feb 2007, 402 posts, RR: 0
Reply 97, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 26725 times:

Si its pretty much confirmed that there will be no 748's included in this 108 aircraft order?

Very disappointing and discouraging.   


User currently offlineanfromme From Ireland, joined Feb 2012, 448 posts, RR: 11
Reply 98, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 26613 times:

Quoting indcwby (Reply 93):
They define ERJ/CRJ/ATR/DH8s as Short Haul aircraft while A320/B737s are Medium Haul. So, could the be looking for smaller aircraft instead?

If that was the case LH would be talking to the wrong people as they have confirmed they are in negotiations with Airbus and Boeing.
Also, in the FAZ interview I linked above, Franz talks about "medium-haul" and replacing their 737/A320.
So I think "short-haul" is a slight misrepresentation in news reports and elsewhere in the context of this order.



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User currently offlinecolumba From Germany, joined Dec 2004, 7058 posts, RR: 4
Reply 99, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 26667 times:

Quoting indcwby (Reply 93):
They define ERJ/CRJ/ATR/DH8s as Short Haul aircraft while A320/B737s are Medium Haul. So, could the be looking for smaller aircraft instead?

No, they clearly mention Airbus and Boeing. In the Interview with the CEO of LH he clearly says that this order is to replace their 737 and A320 fleet.

Quoting Stitch (Reply 95):
Perhaps LH (and/or the Group) has (have) internally chosen the 787 and 777X for their widebody replacement and these 77Ws are that interim option for LX, whom needs larger lift "now"?

        You got it - LH is very interested in the 77X. That is why there is no decsion yet. There was a hint in the internal LH magazine a few months ago when asked about the A350 and 787 decison the fleet planer of LH said that there is no a third option which LH is very interested in. As this was posted here on a.net many believed the A330NEO might be the third option but it really is the 777X.

My guess: 787-10 A330 and A343 replacement 777X A346 replacement.

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 79):
The interesting part in that article is that the supervisory board will decide how the narrow body order will be split between Boeing and Airbus.

Indeed very interesting -maybe not for LH mainline but some 737Maxs could end up with Austrian ? On the other hand LH always had a mix of 737s and A320s in their fleet. Would be nice. Really like the design of the Max with the new winglets.

[Edited 2013-02-21 10:20:04]


It will forever be a McDonnell Douglas MD 80 , Boeing MD 80 sounds so wrong
User currently offlinesweair From Sweden, joined Nov 2011, 1813 posts, RR: 0
Reply 100, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 26501 times:

I think having mixed fleets is a good choice, fault tolerant, redundant etc And if orders are big a way to get your fleet faster.

If one OEMs aircraft is grounded the other OEMs will probably not be etc

AA made a wise choice with their NB order, they will probably get their full order faster as they have about 50/50?


User currently offlinekaitak From Ireland, joined Aug 1999, 12411 posts, RR: 37
Reply 101, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 26473 times:

It would be interesting in LH got any 737MAXs for their short haul fleet; current plans call for 737s to be retired by 2016 ... just before what would have been their 50th anniversary of 737 operations, something which really deserves to be celebrated! Don't know when they would get their MAXs, but presumably in around 2018-2020, depending on when delivery slots are available.

Is SN Brussels Airlines going to benefit from this order? Those RJs must be a candidate for replacement!


User currently onlineba319-131 From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2001, 8509 posts, RR: 55
Reply 102, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 26521 times:
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Folks, don't get wound up by the fact the need to acquire new machines is being driven by the leases expiring.

Nobody is beating a path to the leasing companies to pick these up when the LX leases expire, there are plenty of A340-300's out there to be picked up.

In pure operational and long term fleet planning, it makes perfect sense to add a low cost the former Virgin A340-600's to the fleet until such time as A350/787 are ready to enter the fleet.



111,732,3,4,5,7,8,BBJ,741,742,743,744,752,762,763,764,772,77L,773,77W,L15,D10,30,40,AB3,AB6,A312.313,319,320,321,332,333
User currently offlineSQ22 From Germany, joined Feb 2012, 97 posts, RR: 0
Reply 103, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 26345 times:

Quoting flood (Reply 80):

I'm still a little skeptical of a split narrowbody order. Didn't LH state just a few months ago they were seeking to streamline and reduce the number of types and engines in their fleet? As was suggested with the 777s, perhaps availability again plays a big role.

Me, too and you're right.

http://atwonline.com/aircraft-engine...ndards-future-aircraft-orders-1016

We had a Thread about it, but I couldn't find it.

With this in mind I could see 77W's only as interim solutions as well


User currently offlinescbriml From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2003, 12407 posts, RR: 46
Reply 104, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 26210 times:
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Quoting flood (Reply 80):
I'm still a little skeptical of a split narrowbody order.

Well, the split could be 100%-0%   



Time flies like an arrow, but fruit flies like a banana!
User currently onlineEPA001 From Netherlands, joined Sep 2006, 4705 posts, RR: 38
Reply 105, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 26167 times:
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Quoting scbriml (Reply 105):
Well, the split could be 100%-0%   

The only reason LH might split the NB-order would be in my opinion to give LH-Technik, the highly successful maintenance department of LH, the chance to know both the NEO and the MAX first hand.  


User currently offlineMCOflyer From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 8664 posts, RR: 15
Reply 106, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 26107 times:

My final guess goes to six 77W's and two A380's for the wideboadied order. Does anyone besides me think LH could possibly split the order between the NEO and the Max??

KH



Never be afraid to stand up for who you are.
User currently offlinephxa340 From United States of America, joined Mar 2012, 885 posts, RR: 1
Reply 107, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 26038 times:

Quoting EPA001 (Reply 106):

Agreed but could it also be simply the MAX and NEO will both be great aircraft and neither Boeing nor Airbus can fulfill LH needs in a certain timeframe - like AA.


User currently onlineEPA001 From Netherlands, joined Sep 2006, 4705 posts, RR: 38
Reply 108, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 25962 times:
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Quoting phxa340 (Reply 108):
but could it also be simply the MAX and NEO will both be great aircraft and neither Boeing nor Airbus can fulfill LH needs in a certain timeframe - like AA.

That could also be a possibility. Though LH is not in the market for so many NB-airplanes as AA was at the time.   But with so many orders for the NEO and the MAX already, delivery slots could be hard to get in certain time-frames.


User currently offlinephxa340 From United States of America, joined Mar 2012, 885 posts, RR: 1
Reply 109, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 25941 times:

Quoting EPA001 (Reply 109):

While its no 460 plane order - 100 narrow bodies is a lot of delivery slots tied up  


User currently offlinedbo861 From United States of America, joined May 2004, 885 posts, RR: 1
Reply 110, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 25009 times:

Quoting na (Reply 81):
If you are clever and lease the plane for 8 or 10 years perhaps, oand if you install the infamous 10-abreast cattle class onboard. But when A350-1000 and 777X come the 77W will suffer very high depreciation.

I'm not sure the depreciation will be as high as you think. When the 3510 and 777X become operational these 77Ws will still be a very capable aircraft and both manufacturers will likely have huge backlogs for the new jets. Just like with the 787, they won't be producing the new aircraft at full speed immediately either (and hopefully we won't any big of hiccups as the 787 has had). In this 8 to 10 year time frame, these 77Ws will still be relatively new with lots of life left in them, and when you factor in adding yet another brand new type, of high demand aircraft, it might be the smarter/cheaper option to keep the older generation aircraft in the fleet than to buy the shiny new fancy (expensive) aircraft. If not, I'm sure they would have no problem finding a home for the 77Ws. Like I said, the 77Ws won't become obsolete overnight.

Quoting phxa340 (Reply 110):
While its no 460 plane order - 100 narrow bodies is a lot of delivery slots tied up  

Yeah, I wonder with all of the 100+ and sometimes 2-300+ orders for the MAX and NEO we've seen, how many delivery slots are available in the first several years of production. Depending on how quickly these aircraft are needed, they might have no choice but to split the order.


User currently offlineJerseyFlyer From United Kingdom, joined May 2007, 638 posts, RR: 0
Reply 111, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 24634 times:

Quoting columba (Reply 99):
777X A346 replacement.

Which would also explain the absence of a 748 top-up order as the 748 was intended largely to replace the A346s


User currently offlineSCAT15F From United States of America, joined Feb 2007, 402 posts, RR: 0
Reply 112, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 24008 times:

Why not 6 777W's and 2 748i's for the top-up order?

User currently offlinena From Germany, joined Dec 1999, 10657 posts, RR: 9
Reply 113, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 23965 times:

Quoting JerseyFlyer (Reply 112):
Which would also explain the absence of a 748 top-up order as the 748 was intended largely to replace the A346s

Wrong. All 748s ordered so far are replacements for the pre-1992 built batch of 744s. Options/Top-up orders would be for the second batch which will be replaced from the end of the decade onwards. No A346 replacement is planned for this decade. While I could see a chance for the 777X as A346 replacement starting 10 years from now, I think the A350-1000 is more likely. With it they could begin A346 replacement approx. 3 or 4 years earlier than with the 777X.


User currently offlinecolumba From Germany, joined Dec 2004, 7058 posts, RR: 4
Reply 114, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 23649 times:

Apparently the order does also include 30 CSeries to replace the Fokker fleet of Austrian:
http://www.ch-aviation.ch/portal/new...aircraft-centralize-administration



It will forever be a McDonnell Douglas MD 80 , Boeing MD 80 sounds so wrong
User currently offlinesweair From Sweden, joined Nov 2011, 1813 posts, RR: 0
Reply 115, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 23391 times:

Isn´t the 77W a huge step up from A343? Unbeatable economics, but only if you have the passenger numbers to fill it.

User currently offlinedouglasyxz From Germany, joined Jan 2013, 95 posts, RR: 0
Reply 116, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 23041 times:

LH has not only reduced its own 737 fleet but also replaced 737NG at OS by 320. Quite a lot of 320 family aircraft are on order still for LH.
It would be a surprise for me if they would buy any 737 now, considering the move of LH's Europe-operations into Germanwings, an all-Airbus operator.

What kind of benefit would the Max provide the Neo can't?


User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 30654 posts, RR: 84
Reply 117, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 22895 times:
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Quoting sweair (Reply 116):
Isn´t the 77W a huge step up from A343? Unbeatable economics, but only if you have the passenger numbers to fill it.

LX evidently has the passenger numbers as they want/need a larger plane.


User currently offlineDash9 From Canada, joined Nov 2008, 196 posts, RR: 0
Reply 118, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 22610 times:

Quoting columba (Reply 115):
Apparently the order does also include 30 CSeries to replace the Fokker fleet of Austrian:

Ordering a second batch of a jet that as not fly yet would be a nice vote of confidence for BBD


User currently offlinesweair From Sweden, joined Nov 2011, 1813 posts, RR: 0
Reply 119, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 21995 times:

Quoting Stitch (Reply 118):

Maybe they could even fill 380 seats in a 748i? As that frame could be delivered before 2015 for sure, it has empty slots right now, along with 380 seats you can have a decent load of cargo too. Under 400 seats in a 748i is a very comfortable cabin IMO, much more so than in a 77W.


User currently offlineanfromme From Ireland, joined Feb 2012, 448 posts, RR: 11
Reply 120, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 21527 times:

Quoting douglasyxz (Reply 117):
LH has not only reduced its own 737 fleet but also replaced 737NG at OS by 320. Quite a lot of 320 family aircraft are on order still for LH.

Here's a breakdown of pending orders as of 28-02-2013:
LH: 1x A319, 47x A320 (including 30 NEO), 7x A321
AUA: none
LX: 1x A320, 2x A321
SN: none
4U: 6x A319
Total of 34 CEO and 30 NEO.

Quoting douglasyxz (Reply 117):
It would be a surprise for me if they would buy any 737 now, considering the move of LH's Europe-operations into Germanwings, an all-Airbus operator.

What kind of benefit would the Max provide the Neo can't?

I wouldn't suggest that LH are going to order MAX exclusively. They've already ordered 30NEOs, and it would not make much sense to order 100 MAX alongside these. But I wouldn't rule out a split of 65 MAX and 35 NEO (or 50:50 or similar). They've been operating 737s and A320 alongside each other for ages, so they do have some experience in that field.
Then again - LH did state they want to reduce their fleet complexity, and the MAX would not only introduce another type, but also another engine type (as LH chose the GTF for their NEOs).



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User currently offlineautothrust From Switzerland, joined Jun 2006, 1592 posts, RR: 9
Reply 121, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 21063 times:

Quoting JerseyFlyer (Reply 112):
Which would also explain the absence of a 748 top-up order as the 748 was intended largely to replace the A346s

Huh? No the 747-8 were inteded to replace the 747-400.



“Faliure is not an option.”
User currently offlineSemaex From Germany, joined Nov 2009, 823 posts, RR: 2
Reply 122, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 21038 times:

Quoting columba (Reply 115):
Apparently the order does also include 30 CSeries to replace the Fokker fleet of Austrian:
http://www.ch-aviation.ch/portal/new...ation

What I find more interesting in that short article than the 30 CSeries is that LH is going to move its Passage HQ to Frankfurt and CLH HQ to Munich by 2017.
Did I really miss something, or is this more of a rumour than actual news?



// You know you're an aviation enthusiast when you look at your neighbour's cars and think about fleet commonality.
User currently offlinedouglasyxz From Germany, joined Jan 2013, 95 posts, RR: 0
Reply 123, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 20915 times:

Semaex, it is no rumor, it is a matter of fact. Have a look at reply 84 of anfromme, there you find a link to an interview of C. Franz with FAZ. Cityline HQ will be moved to MUC, too.

User currently offlinedouglasyxz From Germany, joined Jan 2013, 95 posts, RR: 0
Reply 124, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 20809 times:

Isn't the MAX much bigger than 737 300/500? Does LH really need that? I thought CS 300 would be the most suitable replacement in terms of pax capacity.
And how would a possible order of MAX go along with the shift of many LH connections into 4U? IIRC, 30 aircraft or so will be moved from LH to 4U. This will be most probably only Airbus.


User currently offlineSemaex From Germany, joined Nov 2009, 823 posts, RR: 2
Reply 125, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 20431 times:

Quoting douglasyxz (Reply 125):
IIRC, 30 aircraft or so will be moved from LH to 4U. This will be most probably only Airbus.

AFAIK also CRJ will be moved to 4U. If that is only on the balance sheet or also crew and aircraft, I don't know.



// You know you're an aviation enthusiast when you look at your neighbour's cars and think about fleet commonality.
User currently offlinedouglasyxz From Germany, joined Jan 2013, 95 posts, RR: 0
Reply 126, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 20430 times:

Those CRJ900 will not be transferred to 4U but Eurowings is going to operate them on behalf of 4U. According to LH website:
http://www.lufthansagroup.com/en/pre.../2012/october/11/article/2240.html

"As many as 30 aircraft that currently serve Lufthansa’s point-to-point routes will be transferred to Germanwings from January 2013. Lufthansa’s regional subsidiary Eurowings, which provides point-to-point services exclusively for Lufthansa, will continue to operate as an independent subsidiary on regional routes. However, in future it will operate on behalf of Germanwings."

The 737 Classic in LH's fleet are quite old, it is unlikely to see them in 4U colors. It's gonna be A320 family types to be moved along with cockpit crew and FA.

Update:
http://www.lufthansagroup.com/en/company/themen/germanwings.html

"The airline will launch its new products on the market on 1 July 2013. As of then, aircraft in the Lufthansa fleet earmarked for the “new Germanwings” will also be gradually converted and transferred."

Back to the topic of this thread: The planes to be purchased won't be for LH only, but for the group's airlines as well.

http://www.lufthansagroup.com/en/pre...2013/february/19/article/2350.html


User currently offlinecolumba From Germany, joined Dec 2004, 7058 posts, RR: 4
Reply 127, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 20071 times:

Quoting douglasyxz (Reply 127):
Back to the topic of this thread: The planes to be purchased won't be for LH only, but for the group's airlines as well.

http://www.lufthansagroup.com/en/pre...2013/february/19/article/2350.html

So it is official that the 100 plane narrowbody order will be split between Airbus and Boeing aircraft



It will forever be a McDonnell Douglas MD 80 , Boeing MD 80 sounds so wrong
User currently offlinescbriml From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2003, 12407 posts, RR: 46
Reply 128, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 19744 times:
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Quoting columba (Reply 128):
So it is official that the 100 plane narrowbody order will be split between Airbus and Boeing aircraft

Personally, I think they're just saying the total 108 plane order will be split between the two manufacturers.



Time flies like an arrow, but fruit flies like a banana!
User currently offlinedouglasyxz From Germany, joined Jan 2013, 95 posts, RR: 0
Reply 129, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 19743 times:

Quoting columba (Reply 128):

No, columba, it does not necessarily mean the NB order will be split. There is a significant difference between the German and the English version of the statement. The German version states an order for 108 long- and medium-haul aircraft of Airbus and Boeing. The English translation says 100 NB of A and B. Being a German airline I would expect German version is right.


User currently offlinesweair From Sweden, joined Nov 2011, 1813 posts, RR: 0
Reply 130, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 19753 times:

100 aircraft of either A or B? Or is it "and"? Now we will have to debate this, what is the meaning of those words..  

User currently offlinedouglasyxz From Germany, joined Jan 2013, 95 posts, RR: 0
Reply 131, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 2 days ago) and read 19719 times:

Quoting sweair (Reply 131):

The headline of the statement is more than clear: a total of 108 planes, WB and NB.


User currently offlinesweair From Sweden, joined Nov 2011, 1813 posts, RR: 0
Reply 132, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 2 days ago) and read 19700 times:

Quoting douglasyxz (Reply 132):

I was trying to be smart like a lawyer, bending words..


User currently offlinedouglasyxz From Germany, joined Jan 2013, 95 posts, RR: 0
Reply 133, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 2 days ago) and read 19665 times:

Quoting sweair (Reply 133):

Got it.

But let's get serious. Why should an airline that is phasing out a specific type throughout its entire group plan to buy it again? And as the planes are to enter the fleet from 2015 to 2025 I don't see availability an issue here particularly for NBs.
I guess, WB are available at short notice.

[Edited 2013-02-24 01:15:57]

User currently offlineanfromme From Ireland, joined Feb 2012, 448 posts, RR: 11
Reply 134, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 19057 times:

Quoting douglasyxz (Reply 125):
Isn't the MAX much bigger than 737 300/500?

737-7MAX would be equivalent to 737-300. The size category of the A318/737-500/737-600 is really served by larger regional jets, e.g. E-190, CS-100, and the likes.
Turned out that a double-downsize of a popular medium-haul plane doesn't quite cut it any more these days, largely due to the extra structural weight that introduces.

Quoting douglasyxz (Reply 134):
Why should an airline that is phasing out a specific type throughout its entire group plan to buy it again?

Because 737MAX is two generations removed from the 737-300? Also, any 737MAX would be new, not 20+ years old (as the youngest LH 737 are theses days).
I'm not saying LH are going to order MAX, but I definitely wouldn't rule it out, either.



Flown on: A300B4, A310-200/-300, A319, A320-100/-200, A321-200, A330-200, A340-500/-600, A380-800, An-24, An-26, ATR42,
User currently offlinecolumba From Germany, joined Dec 2004, 7058 posts, RR: 4
Reply 135, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 19026 times:

Quoting douglasyxz (Reply 130):
No, columba, it does not necessarily mean the NB order will be split. There is a significant difference between the German and the English version of the statement. The German version states an order for 108 long- and medium-haul aircraft of Airbus and Boeing. The English translation says 100 NB of A and B. Being a German airline I would expect German version is right.


Yes the German article can be understood this way but if you read the headline it clearly says "Mittel- und Langfristbedarf auf der Kurz- und Mittelstrecke wird durch Airbus- und Boeing-Flugzeuge abgesichert" which I would translate into:

"Midterm and long term demand for short and medium haul planes will be secured by Airbus and Boeing aircraft

I am saying it will be a split, what I am not saying that these planes will fly for LH mainline could also be OS, SN or LX

[Edited 2013-02-24 07:31:27]


It will forever be a McDonnell Douglas MD 80 , Boeing MD 80 sounds so wrong
User currently offlinena From Germany, joined Dec 1999, 10657 posts, RR: 9
Reply 136, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 18961 times:

Unless Boeing makes an offer no one can resist the shorthaul order will be for Airbus I am sure, although a split is possible. As more and more flights will be done by lowcost (Germanwings), which means more seats, the width of the cabin becomes more important and there the A320 has the edge over the narrow 737. A number of LCC shorthaul flights in India recently have shown me the importance of that fact! For Asians that might not be so important, but Europeans arent that short or slim!

User currently offlinecolumba From Germany, joined Dec 2004, 7058 posts, RR: 4
Reply 137, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 18949 times:

Quoting na (Reply 137):
Unless Boeing makes an offer no one can resist the shorthaul order will be for Airbus !

One word: "Availablity" both the Max and Neo have huge backlogs. Because of that many airlines already have done so, just look at American Airlines or Norwegian.

[Edited 2013-02-24 07:43:12]


It will forever be a McDonnell Douglas MD 80 , Boeing MD 80 sounds so wrong
User currently offlinephxa340 From United States of America, joined Mar 2012, 885 posts, RR: 1
Reply 138, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 18345 times:

Quoting na (Reply 137):
As more and more flights will be done by lowcost (Germanwings), which means more seats, the width of the cabin becomes more important and there the A320 has the edge over the narrow 737. A number of LCC shorthaul flights in India recently have shown me the importance of that fact!

Huh ? By that logic, FR and WN should be an all Airbus fleet but alas the 737 is working fine for them !


User currently offlinedouglasyxz From Germany, joined Jan 2013, 95 posts, RR: 0
Reply 139, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 18276 times:

Quoting anfromme (Reply 135):

That is right for LH's birds, but not for those recently phased out at OS. The last one, 737NG was not even 7 years old when it has been sold. That is why I would expect an all-320 order for the group except maybe some more CSeries.

[Edited 2013-02-24 22:32:46]

User currently offlinena From Germany, joined Dec 1999, 10657 posts, RR: 9
Reply 140, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 1 day ago) and read 18016 times:

Quoting phxa340 (Reply 139):
Huh ? By that logic, FR and WN should be an all Airbus fleet but alas the 737 is working fine for them !

Working "fine", for their beancounters maybe, not so much for the passengers. I used to fly FR from time to time, since 2007 I dont do that anymore, and I know others who dont also. Those planes are too tight.


User currently offlinevin2basketball From United States of America, joined Dec 2009, 313 posts, RR: 0
Reply 141, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 7 hours ago) and read 16878 times:

Quoting na (Reply 141):
Working "fine", for their beancounters maybe, not so much for the passengers. I used to fly FR from time to time, since 2007 I dont do that anymore, and I know others who dont also. Those planes are too tight.

But they work fine for passengers too -- at least in the sense that passengers will not book away from an airline just because it flies 737s vs. A320s. Passengers flying economy class care about price/schedules and timings primarily; very few traveling in Y make decisions based on comfort. In J class (Euro style) it makes some difference I suppose but again I doubt its a deal breaker as most flying short haul J within Europe are likely business travelers whose demand is driven primarily by schedules again (the exception is the odd 5+ hour route served with narrowbodies to the Middle East or Africa). If you look at US domestic F class/Narrowbody regional J class for most of the world it makes little difference. This is also why I think the EU carriers might bite the bullet and just configure the neo/MAX, which will have 6hrs + range to offer new routes, with domestic style F (perhaps even 321neo and 737 MAX 8 with lie-flat long haul J seats for trans-Atlantic flights and red-eyes to middle east/Africa with strong premium demand (where right now widebodies are operated -- remember: Only ~3800 mi range needed for flights US East coast to Europe


User currently offlinedouglasyxz From Germany, joined Jan 2013, 95 posts, RR: 0
Reply 142, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 3 hours ago) and read 16685 times:

Quoting vin2basketball (Reply 142):

Fully agree with you, vin2basketball. The majority of pax wouldn't recognize if they are sitting in an A or B plane. They know which airline they are booked on and if they feel comfortable. Finally, the seet-configuration an airline puts on a plane makes the difference.
Only frequent travellers would make the difference, yet their decision for a particular flight is most of the times given by timing and price and often not even in their hands, but made by dedicated travel dept. in their companies.

As the new order can be considered as a REPLACEMENT of existing planes for several subs. of LH group, I would expect fleet-commonality plays a major role here. Just wondering that CSeries has not been mentioned in the LH statement. Maybe this is a separate order outside this A+B deal.


User currently offlineautothrust From Switzerland, joined Jun 2006, 1592 posts, RR: 9
Reply 143, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 1 hour ago) and read 16488 times:

Quoting columba (Reply 99):
You got it - LH is very interested in the 77X.

How do you know that? The 77X is not even defined or decided. It's a paper plane at the moment.

While the A350 will fly this year, the TrentXWB is already showing very promising economics and it would maintain the commonality in the fleet.

Apart from this the A350 will offer lower maintenance cost.

Quoting ZRH (Reply 85):
I actually only believe it when I see the birds in SWISS livery. To have an extra pilot corps for only 6 frames makes absolutely no sense. Especially when you also consider the pilot shortage they already have. They would lose flexibility.

      Couldn't agree more.



“Faliure is not an option.”
User currently offlinena From Germany, joined Dec 1999, 10657 posts, RR: 9
Reply 144, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week ago) and read 16213 times:

Quoting vin2basketball (Reply 141):
But they work fine for passengers too

ONLY because they often offer the cheapest tickets. But that isnt the case as often anymore as it used to be.
For someone living in and around Frankfurt a LH flight is often the better choice, just fractionally more expensive when booked early. Add the cost of additional bustravel (20 Euros on top of FRA) and a lot of time (1 1/2 hous one-way) to fly Ryanair, something one shouldnt forget when looking at the ticket prices.

Quoting vin2basketball (Reply 141):
-- at least in the sense that passengers will not book away from an airline just because it flies 737s vs. A320s.

I did.
Dont get me wrong, the narrowness of the 737 vs. the A320 is only decicive on LCCs which have a seat pitch obviously measured after dwarfs and kids.


User currently offlineflyglobal From Germany, joined Mar 2008, 573 posts, RR: 3
Reply 145, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week ago) and read 16253 times:

Quoting autothrust (Reply 143):
How do you know that? The 77X is not even defined or decided. It's a paper plane at the moment.



Expect that an LH representative will sit on almost all tables when Boeing or Airbus are considering new or updated planes.
Remember when LH insisted on the long fuselage for the 748i, while Emirates opted for the longer range.

Same maybe here: LH may want to have a 777x for other purpose then other airlines may want. They may accept lower max range here for other issues, then emirates may prefer (long range).

So depending on the outcome of the round table and Boeing's final concept it may influence the decision what LH will take at the end.

So yes: LH is interested in the 777x when it suits their plans better then the competitors offers.

regards

Flyglobal


User currently offlineautothrust From Switzerland, joined Jun 2006, 1592 posts, RR: 9
Reply 146, posted (1 year 5 months 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 16105 times:

Quoting flyglobal (Reply 145):
LH is interested in the 777x when it suits their plans better then the competitors offers.

That applies to any airline. Boeing won't make the plane just to make LH happy and give the plane they want.

Boeing will listen to all airlines and then make a trade off.

That does not mean LH will order it, only because they are interested.



“Faliure is not an option.”
User currently offlinecolumba From Germany, joined Dec 2004, 7058 posts, RR: 4
Reply 147, posted (1 year 5 months 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 15609 times:

Quoting autothrust (Reply 143):
How do you know that? The 77X is not even defined or decided. It's a paper plane at the moment.
Quoting autothrust (Reply 143):
Apart from this the A350 will offer lower maintenance cost.

Didn´t you just contradict yourself ? How can you say that the A350 will offer lower maintenance costs and on the hand say the 777X is nothing but a paper plane yet ?



It will forever be a McDonnell Douglas MD 80 , Boeing MD 80 sounds so wrong
User currently offlineseahawk From Germany, joined May 2005, 987 posts, RR: 0
Reply 148, posted (1 year 5 months 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 15416 times:

I can see the MAX as an interesting option for Germanwings.

User currently offlinePaolo92 From Italy, joined Oct 2007, 260 posts, RR: 0
Reply 149, posted (1 year 5 months 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 15222 times:

Quoting seahawk (Reply 148):

I can see the MAX as an interesting option for Germanwings.

If it proves well with Swiss, I could see the dense variant of the CS300 for Germanwings, or also the high density variant...
They are using A319 at 144 or 150 seats... So a CS300 at 150 or 160 seats would be a perfect replacement.



Each evening, stars come out their daylight hiding places... But one of those, will be my wingtip, passing over...
User currently offlinesunrisevalley From Canada, joined Jul 2004, 4888 posts, RR: 5
Reply 150, posted (1 year 5 months 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 14887 times:

Quoting na (Reply 136):
the width of the cabin becomes more important and there the A320 has the edge over the narrow 737.

At shoulder level it is insignificant. I would suggest there needs to be a more compelling reason than this to choose an A320 over a 737.   


User currently offlineautothrust From Switzerland, joined Jun 2006, 1592 posts, RR: 9
Reply 151, posted (1 year 5 months 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 14737 times:

Quoting columba (Reply 147):
Didn´t you just contradict yourself ?

No. Haven't you seen the recent picture from the A350?

Quoting columba (Reply 147):
How can you say that the A350 will offer lower maintenance costs

It's for (almost)the same reasons why the 787 will offer lower maintenance costs over a A330.

It's pretty obvious the 777X won't feature such a extensive use of CFRP.

[Edited 2013-02-26 23:41:13]


“Faliure is not an option.”
User currently offlineSemaex From Germany, joined Nov 2009, 823 posts, RR: 2
Reply 152, posted (1 year 5 months 6 days ago) and read 14906 times:

Quoting autothrust (Reply 151):
It's pretty obvious the 777X won't feature such a extensive use of CFRP.

There's quite a lot more to maintain on an airplane than just CFRP panels.
And anyways, why wouldn't a brand-new 77X not feature as much of it? If that's the future then Boeing would be stupid to remain in the past.
And overall it's a pretty dangerous statement to say how mx costs are going to be while the one plane is only on paper and the other hasn't flown yet. Crystal-balling, nothing else.



// You know you're an aviation enthusiast when you look at your neighbour's cars and think about fleet commonality.
User currently offlineautothrust From Switzerland, joined Jun 2006, 1592 posts, RR: 9
Reply 153, posted (1 year 5 months 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 14717 times:

Quoting Semaex (Reply 152):
why wouldn't a brand-new 77X not feature as much of it?

Because Boeing would have to redesign the 777 from scratch and they never would be able to pull it out until 2017.

Also the development costs would be like >5billion$.

I don't say Boeing will not add any CFRP but it will be limited and mostly for weight reduction measures. Then with a new engine and wing it will be a competitive plane.



“Faliure is not an option.”
User currently offlineSEPilot From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 6837 posts, RR: 46
Reply 154, posted (1 year 5 months 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 14389 times:

Quoting Semaex (Reply 152):
There's quite a lot more to maintain on an airplane than just CFRP panels.

I think it is pretty well established that CFRP requires less maintenance than aluminum. That is why people can confidently state that maintenance costs will be lower for the 787 and A350 than the A330 and 777. Aluminum fatigues and is fastened by rivets, which over the life of an airframe contributes to a massive amount of required maintenance, much more than what is required for the same structure made out of CFRP. As to other systems, yes, they will require maintenance, but it should be pretty similar between the planes. Also, I do not believe that CFRP structures are life limited, as are Al structures.



The problem with making things foolproof is that fools are so doggone ingenious...Dan Keebler
User currently offlinemjoelnir From Iceland, joined Feb 2013, 1375 posts, RR: 2
Reply 155, posted (1 year 5 months 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 14290 times:

This thread is already quite long, so it can be that I missed it if ot was mentioned before.

The A319/320/321 has the possibility to handle luggage in containers and Lufthansa is using this feature.
It cuts down on personal and turnaround time.

Would it not be a step back for LH to got the B 737 and bulk again?


User currently offlineseahawk From Germany, joined May 2005, 987 posts, RR: 0
Reply 156, posted (1 year 5 months 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 14162 times:

Not for Germanwings for example, as they are doing point to point connections outside the hubs.

User currently offlinePanHAM From Germany, joined May 2005, 9181 posts, RR: 29
Reply 157, posted (1 year 5 months 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 14131 times:

.

Quoting mjoelnir (Reply 155):
Would it not be a step back for LH to got the B 737 and bulk again?

I was going to ask the same question. The A319/320/321 do have a bulk compartment as well, but the majority of the luggage as well as the freight is loaded in AKH or similar containers.

It does not matter if that are hub flights or point to point flights. A through container is only viable if the feeder flight is a widebody as well, which is, after the A300 phase out, no longer the case.

as long as the 737MAX is not containerized, the thumb will likely go down.



E's passed on! That parrot is no more! He has ceased to be! E's expired and gone to meet 'is maker!
User currently offlineabba From Denmark, joined Jun 2005, 1330 posts, RR: 2
Reply 158, posted (1 year 5 months 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 13782 times:

Quoting Semaex (Reply 152):
And anyways, why wouldn't a brand-new 77X not feature as much of it? If that's the future then Boeing would be stupid to remain in the past.


If Boeing were not to keep the past in certain significant ways, they wouldn't be doing a 777x but a Y3...


User currently offlineHeavierthanair From Switzerland, joined Oct 2000, 790 posts, RR: 0
Reply 159, posted (1 year 5 months 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 13683 times:

G'day

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 157):
as long as the 737MAX is not containerized, the thumb will likely go down

Germanwings does not use cans, so I guess for them that is not an issue. But then again, they have selected the 'bus for some reason, and that with IAE engines.   

LH on the other side seem to be almost religiously avoiding to become too reliant on one supplier.    So my    prediction is that they will buy large narrowbodied from both A and B even though it may be at a cost   


Cheers

Peter



"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe." (Albert Einstein, 1879
User currently offlinePaolo92 From Italy, joined Oct 2007, 260 posts, RR: 0
Reply 160, posted (1 year 5 months 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 13520 times:

LH has all A319 bulk and A320/321 containerized.


Each evening, stars come out their daylight hiding places... But one of those, will be my wingtip, passing over...
User currently offlineytz From Canada, joined Jun 2009, 1985 posts, RR: 24
Reply 161, posted (1 year 5 months 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 13282 times:

Quoting Paolo92 (Reply 149):
If it proves well with Swiss, I could see the dense variant of the CS300 for Germanwings, or also the high density variant...
They are using A319 at 144 or 150 seats... So a CS300 at 150 or 160 seats would be a perfect replacement.

I would hope the CS500. It needs a launch customer! And Germanwings would prove perfect.

Not even the ER. Just the CS500. 150 pax at the normal 32" pitch. 1500nm range (@max payload) would cover all of Europe and the Mediterranean/North Africa. And I'd be willing to bet that fuel burn and CASM on the CS500 is about the same as the A319NEO (see figures from link...take a stab at extrapolating for the CS500).

http://www.aspireaviation.com/2012/0...t-obstacle-for-bombardier-cseries/

All that said, I doubt LH would ever be that adventurous. It'll be more Airbus/Boeing.


User currently offlinecolumba From Germany, joined Dec 2004, 7058 posts, RR: 4
Reply 162, posted (1 year 5 months 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 12870 times:

Quoting ytz (Reply 161):
All that said, I doubt LH would ever be that adventurous. It'll be more Airbus/Boeing.

If the plane fits their needs LH has no problem being the launch customer:

FD 728
A310
A321
A340

737
747F
747-8

as a few examples



It will forever be a McDonnell Douglas MD 80 , Boeing MD 80 sounds so wrong
User currently offlinedouglasyxz From Germany, joined Jan 2013, 95 posts, RR: 0
Reply 163, posted (1 year 5 months 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 12819 times:

Quoting ytz (Reply 161):

LH is launch customer for the all-new CS100. Being the same for a stretched CS500 would be a significantly lower risk. The number of planes needed for 4U should be enough to start the program. Yet I do not believe the launch of a bigger model happen until the CS100/300 have entered into service and production has ramped up to a stable amount.

LH has several times proven its capability to go for a new plane based just on theoretical figures. Otherwise 748I would have never being launched. Not to forget 737-100, where LH had played a major role on the main layout, say range and pax numbers.

Not to say other airlines couldn't do same, just to state LH can and will push for a new plane if it fits their needs.


User currently offlineytz From Canada, joined Jun 2009, 1985 posts, RR: 24
Reply 164, posted (1 year 5 months 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 12167 times:

Quoting douglasyxz (Reply 163):
LH is launch customer for the all-new CS100.

I was under the impression that LH is not the launch customer. Just an early customer.

Quoting columba (Reply 162):
If the plane fits their needs LH has no problem being the launch customer.

If that was the case, I think LH would have ordered the CS300 already (say for OS and LX). I think there is still a limit to the risk they are willing to take on.

Quoting douglasyxz (Reply 163):
Yet I do not believe the launch of a bigger model happen until the CS100/300 have entered into service and production has ramped up to a stable amount.

I would say that BBD might be willing to offer the CS500 as early as the CS100 EIS. So far, this program seems to have fewer hiccups than the 787 and 350. If they maintain this pace, then they could have a CS500 in service as early as 2016. I don't think it's too early to offer the aircraft.

And certainly for the LH Group, unless they need containerized cargo, they are far better off using the CSeries. Better fuel economy. Faster load times. More carry-on cargo room. Higher passenger comfort levels. I would think the CSeries is great for Germanwings and LH Regional (Cityline, Air Dolomiti and Eurowings). Heck, even LH mainline could benefit from using the CSeries. This way, they would only have to buy the 321NEO for high demand routes and for routes where containerized cargo is necessary.


User currently offlinePaolo92 From Italy, joined Oct 2007, 260 posts, RR: 0
Reply 165, posted (1 year 5 months 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 12067 times:

Quoting ytz (Reply 164):
I was under the impression that LH is not the launch customer. Just an early customer.

Lufthansa actually is the launch customer (airline which signed the first order, launching the program), but will not be the first operator (still undisclosed).

Quoting douglasyxz (Reply 163):
Yet I do not believe the launch of a bigger model happen until the CS100/300 have entered into service and production has ramped up to a stable amount.

I absolutely agree.



Each evening, stars come out their daylight hiding places... But one of those, will be my wingtip, passing over...
User currently offlinedouglasyxz From Germany, joined Jan 2013, 95 posts, RR: 0
Reply 166, posted (1 year 5 months 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 11734 times:

http://www.bombardier.com/en/corpora...ses/details?docID=0901260d80088e67
"The Lufthansa Group became the launch customer for the CSeries aircraft family in July 2008 when it signed a Letter of Interest (LOI) for up to 60 aircraft, including 30 options."

30 options still pending. I'm wondering how many of their options for several kind of aircraft LH has not converted into firm orders. Anyone who knows details?


User currently offlineZRH From Switzerland, joined Nov 1999, 5566 posts, RR: 36
Reply 167, posted (1 year 5 months 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 11747 times:

Quoting douglasyxz (Reply 166):
it signed a Letter of Interest (LOI) for up to 60 aircraft, including 30 options."

30 options still pending. I'm wondering how many of their options for several kind of aircraft LH has not converted into firm orders. Anyone who knows details?

I only know that the first 30 aircrafts go to SWISS to replace the 20 AVROs and to expand or probably to replace some 319.

[Edited 2013-02-28 12:51:21]

User currently offlinePaolo92 From Italy, joined Oct 2007, 260 posts, RR: 0
Reply 168, posted (1 year 5 months 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 11737 times:

Quoting douglasyxz (Reply 166):
Anyone who knows details?

According to their corporate website:
http://investor-relations.lufthansag.../fakten-zum-unternehmen/fleet.html

They still hold 5 options for A321, 2 for the A330, 3 for the A380 and 5 for the 777 (freighter) in addition to the 30 options for the CSeries.
They are used to convert all the options they hold....
They had several for the Embraer E-jets which got all converted, same thing with the A380 (2 options still there, rumored to be converted with this order) and also for other aircraft (see A320 family)...



Each evening, stars come out their daylight hiding places... But one of those, will be my wingtip, passing over...
User currently offlinecolumba From Germany, joined Dec 2004, 7058 posts, RR: 4
Reply 169, posted (1 year 4 months 3 weeks 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 10716 times:

What do you think, can we expect an announcement in the next few weeks ?


It will forever be a McDonnell Douglas MD 80 , Boeing MD 80 sounds so wrong
User currently offlinePanHAM From Germany, joined May 2005, 9181 posts, RR: 29
Reply 170, posted (1 year 4 months 3 weeks 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 10165 times:

The AGM in may would be a good date to announce, or the next supervisory board meeting. Check investors relations for dates


E's passed on! That parrot is no more! He has ceased to be! E's expired and gone to meet 'is maker!