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Would/Should Delta Acquire Virgin America?  
User currently offlinejethawk From United States of America, joined Feb 2013, 21 posts, RR: 0
Posted (1 year 7 months 9 hours ago) and read 9116 times:

With DAL now in the right seat of Virgin Atlantic and its imminent addition to Sky Team; would one think DAL would be interested in acquiring the floundering Virgin America brand. This would eliminate some competition in SFO/LAX, and could possibly mean more slots at JFK. Additionally, DAL would acquire some 50+ A320 family aircraft with an avg. fleet age of ~5 years. Could these be the slightly used birds they are looking for? If the price was right I could see a win for DAL.

[Edited 2013-02-19 16:44:02]


Run up in the sky so deep it be crying
51 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineAeroWesty From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 20640 posts, RR: 62
Reply 1, posted (1 year 7 months 9 hours ago) and read 9084 times:

I think that jetBlue has a more complementary network, along with a similar fleet, which would make them the best merger choice for Virgin America, IF it came down to that. It would also give us a stronger fifth place carrier behind UA, AA, DL and WN. VX's First Class would go away in that scenario as B6 has no use for it.

IBTL!



International Homo of Mystery
User currently offlinesrbmod From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 2, posted (1 year 7 months 9 hours ago) and read 9068 times:

That's likely not going to happen. Just because DL is buying a 49% stake in VS doesn't mean any other Virgin branded airlines are on their radar. VX is owned by VAI Partners, who own 75% of the airline with the Virgin Group (Who owns the remaining 51% of VS) owns 25% of the airline due to US ownership laws. VX operates independently of the other Virgin-branded airlines but do have partnerships with some of them.

User currently offlinepoint2point From United States of America, joined Mar 2010, 2758 posts, RR: 1
Reply 3, posted (1 year 7 months 9 hours ago) and read 9046 times:

Quoting jethawk (Thread starter):
would one think DAL would be interested in acquiring the floundering Virgin America brand.

The question becomes how much would it be worth to DL to be rid of this competitor? If VX is in dire straits (maybe some may say they are there now) and the price is bargain basement, then VX might be of interest to all domestic carriers.

However...... with VX in the state its in...... and shareholders of VX are unwilling to part with it at a loss, well.....it may be just a matter of time before DL or any other carrier can have what VX currently has (minus whatever marketing pizazz the VX may offer it pax) just with its own organic growth, and wait for VX to eventually falter, which pretty much may happen if positive $$$$ don't start happening soon......

 


User currently offlineluv2fly From United States of America, joined May 2003, 12110 posts, RR: 48
Reply 4, posted (1 year 7 months 9 hours ago) and read 9022 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Why buy something that is already on life support, just wait for nature to takes its course.


You can cut the irony with a knife
User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7908 posts, RR: 51
Reply 5, posted (1 year 7 months 9 hours ago) and read 8990 times:

Whoa whoa whoa...

Quoting jethawk (Thread starter):
With DAL now in the left seat of Virgin Atlantic

RIGHT seat, they may have 49% but SRB still has 51% (control/left seat)

Quoting jethawk (Thread starter):
its imminent addition to Sky Team

I'm pretty sure this isn't something DL just decided to somehow make VS do, I'd wager if DL had any brains this is something they would have negotiated before buying 49% of VS

Quoting jethawk (Thread starter):
would one think DAL would be interested in acquiring the floundering Virgin America brand.

Besides the name and branding, albeit big, VS and VX are completely different companies. I don't think DL is interested in a SFO hub if you'd call it that, and VX's business model is pretty different... I don't think it would work at all. Plus, the way VX is doing and the very limited potential they have (IMO) I'd steer clear of them if I were DL

Quoting jethawk (Thread starter):
Could these be the slightly used birds they are looking for?

No. DL is looking for slightly used planes no one wants. Who wants MD-90s or 717s? Basically no one. VX's A320s would quickly find a home.

Quoting jethawk (Thread starter):
If the price was right I could see a win for DAL.

Yes, but like I just said, I don't think the price would be right as many carriers would take these birds, increasing the price



Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlinejethawk From United States of America, joined Feb 2013, 21 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (1 year 7 months 9 hours ago) and read 8918 times:

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 5):
RIGHT seat, they may have 49% but SRB still has 51% (control/left seat)

Fixed that one for you, I was thinking right in my small little head



Run up in the sky so deep it be crying
User currently offlinejethawk From United States of America, joined Feb 2013, 21 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (1 year 7 months 9 hours ago) and read 8885 times:

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 5):
I don't think DL is interested in a SFO hub if you'd call it that, and VX's business model is pretty different... I don't think it would work at all.

I'm talking acquire the assets, not the brand, culture, and routes.

I mean honestly, have you seen what they make their employees wear?



Run up in the sky so deep it be crying
User currently offlineboeing773ER From United States of America, joined Dec 2011, 432 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (1 year 7 months 9 hours ago) and read 8851 times:

Well doesnt DL indirectly own about 12.4% of VX already? Since they own 49% of Virgin Atlantic which owns 25% of VX?im not sure if my logic is right, but that's what my thought is.


Work Hard, Fly Right.
User currently offlinepoint2point From United States of America, joined Mar 2010, 2758 posts, RR: 1
Reply 9, posted (1 year 7 months 9 hours ago) and read 8820 times:

Quoting boeing773ER (Reply 8):
Well doesnt DL indirectly own about 12.4% of VX already? Since they own 49% of Virgin Atlantic which owns 25% of VX?im not sure if my logic is right, but that's what my thought is.

I think that in some way you may have some sort of point there......


 


User currently offlinePolot From United States of America, joined Jul 2011, 2187 posts, RR: 1
Reply 10, posted (1 year 7 months 9 hours ago) and read 8779 times:

Quoting boeing773ER (Reply 8):
Well doesnt DL indirectly own about 12.4% of VX already? Since they own 49% of Virgin Atlantic which owns 25% of VX?im not sure if my logic is right, but that's what my thought is.

VS has no ownership stake in VX. The Virgin Group has a 25% stake in VX, along with a 51% stake in VS. Delta has a 49% stake in Virgin Atlantic, not the Virgin Group.


User currently offlineVS11 From United States of America, joined Jul 2001, 1111 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (1 year 7 months 8 hours ago) and read 8528 times:

It may not be a totally dumb idea but only if they keep the airline and let it grow on its own. VX can be a successful reincarnation of the old DL's Song. This way, DL does not have to start e.g. BOS-LAX and DL could cut down on service in markets where VX is more likely to be preferred.

User currently offlinetullamarine From Australia, joined Aug 1999, 1568 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (1 year 7 months 7 hours ago) and read 8378 times:

DL also has a close alliance with VA though hasn't been able to get any equity so far as NZ, SQ and EY have each taken substantial holdings.


717,721/2,732/3/4/5/7/8/9,742/3/4,752/3,762/3,772,W,A310,320,321,332,333,388,DC9,DC10,F28,F100,142,143,E90,CR2,D82/3/4,S
User currently offlinetoltommy From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 3292 posts, RR: 4
Reply 13, posted (1 year 7 months 7 hours ago) and read 8369 times:

Quoting VS11 (Reply 11):
It may not be a totally dumb idea but only if they keep the airline and let it grow on its own.

One word. Scope. If Delta owns a majority of a carrier that flies aircraft seating more than 76, it must be flown by pilots on the Delta seniority list.


User currently offlineSocalApproach From United States of America, joined Feb 2013, 108 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (1 year 7 months 7 hours ago) and read 8207 times:

Since VX is its own company with no obligation to work with VS in any way, it means nothing that DL has a 49% stake in VS....VX could care less and they have their own airline to run. Therefore this thread is going no where. Everyone is so quick to count VX out for the count now when I honestly think they are in better position then they ever have been and are making some sound moves (and a few questionable ones) but overall they are not all SFO/LAX-Any destination. They are managing their fleet and where they are putting their planes in places that are alot more efficient now than ever even if that includes parking them! I may be biased because I just got an offer for them to work there but seriously nobody I talked to at VX seems to be worried at all. All the doomsday talking only happens here on a.net

User currently offlineXT6Wagon From United States of America, joined Feb 2007, 3409 posts, RR: 4
Reply 15, posted (1 year 7 months 7 hours ago) and read 8154 times:

Never. Virgin America has from all reports $1B or more in debt and far less than that in assets. They have posted no profit ever. They have no unique assets. They have no slots worth buying the airline for. They have no hard to get aircraft.

In short, waiting till they have an asset sale is the highest reward Delta or any other airline can see from Virgin America.


User currently offlineVS11 From United States of America, joined Jul 2001, 1111 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (1 year 7 months 6 hours ago) and read 8125 times:

Quoting toltommy (Reply 13):
One word. Scope. If Delta owns a majority of a carrier that flies aircraft seating more than 76, it must be flown by pilots on the Delta seniority list.

That's not a huge obstacle. So what if DL pilots fly the planes...the essence is that DL acquires a great product...as long as DL FAs are not forced onto VX...


User currently offlinecatiii From United States of America, joined Mar 2008, 3031 posts, RR: 4
Reply 17, posted (1 year 7 months 4 hours ago) and read 7828 times:

Quoting VS11 (Reply 16):

Putting aside the fact that an acqusition of VX bynDL is never going to happen, there's a reason why Song doesn't exist anymore. The airline within an airline concept is a failure. Even if DL did acquire VX, VX as you know it would be eliminated.


User currently offlineBigGSFO From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 2924 posts, RR: 6
Reply 18, posted (1 year 7 months 4 hours ago) and read 7752 times:

If it's Monday, it must be a new "Will DL acquire XXX..."

There's no point. VX has no critical mass, no assets that DL could not get on their own. Even if they wanted, for example, a larger piece of the SFO market, they could start service tomorrow to wherever they wanted domestically (save a beyond perimeter DCA slot). And maybe they should- weather delays notwithstanding, SFO could probably sustain a second hub from someone who has a substantial transpacific footprint.

VX will either thrive (hopefully) or die on their own. DL doesn't need them if they wanted the buses or the marketshare.


User currently offlineTWA772LR From United States of America, joined Nov 2011, 2049 posts, RR: 1
Reply 19, posted (1 year 7 months 4 hours ago) and read 7747 times:

Out of B6 and VX, I think a more plausible merger would be DL/VX. B6/DL would give DL a near monopoly in JFK and the antitrust laws and DOJ wouldn't let that fly (pun intended). VX would give DL a larger presence in LAX (where they have been growing pretty fast) and a nice presence in SFO to go against UA. VX Airbus fleet also has engine commonality with DL's CFM powered fleet.

But I don't see any mergers involving the "Big 3" for quite some time.



Go coogs! \n//
User currently offlinestrfyr51 From United States of America, joined Apr 2012, 1212 posts, RR: 1
Reply 20, posted (1 year 7 months 4 hours ago) and read 7696 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting VS11 (Reply 16):

If selta bought a majority of VX?? There would BE no VX !!


User currently offlinepanamair From United States of America, joined Oct 2001, 4910 posts, RR: 25
Reply 21, posted (1 year 7 months 1 hour ago) and read 7401 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting tullamarine (Reply 12):
DL also has a close alliance with VA though hasn't been able to get any equity so far

Uh, there hasn't been any indication that DL wants or has tried to get an equity stake in VA....


User currently offlineDeltal1011man From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 9424 posts, RR: 14
Reply 22, posted (1 year 7 months ago) and read 7344 times:

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 5):

No. DL is looking for slightly used planes no one wants. Who wants MD-90s or 717s? Basically no one. VX's A320s would quickly find a home.

not true. Delta looks at lot of things. It just happens to be right now, M90/717 is the cheapest way to go. Once all the NEOs and MAXs start showing up don't be shocked to see DL go after NGs and OEOs.

Quoting jethawk (Thread starter):

Nah, just sit back and watch it die. No need to buy into something that performs so poorly.

Quoting SocalApproach (Reply 14):
All the doomsday talking only happens here on a.net

No it doesn't. For a company that has been around as long as VX that doesn't seem anywhere near to posting a profit plenty of people talking (laughing) about VX outside of anet

Quoting VS11 (Reply 16):
as long as DL FAs are not forced onto VX...

  wont happen. General hint for life. When you have a group that was a few thousand or less votes away from a Union....a good idea is to not outsource jobs like that......Unless you want them to vote in a union then force those jobs back to mainline with scope.



yep.
User currently offlinejfklganyc From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 3476 posts, RR: 5
Reply 23, posted (1 year 6 months 4 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 7125 times:

How big does DL need to get?

Adding these 50 airplanes, staff, and money BURNING routes...what good does it do Delta?


User currently offlineSocalApproach From United States of America, joined Feb 2013, 108 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (1 year 6 months 4 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 6962 times:

Quoting Deltal1011man (Reply 22):
No it doesn't. For a company that has been around as long as VX that doesn't seem anywhere near to posting a profit plenty of people talking (laughing) about VX outside of anet

Who?? OAL employees?? Pilots and Inflight coming from regional's and the legacy's trying to improve their quality of life or just get off reserve are leaving for VX if they have the opportunity.

I guess this is something I have to get used to here at a.net. Unless you are a legacy or your name is DL/UA/WN you will always be associated with being bought out by someone no matter how good you are doing. Here were are in a thread that is speculating if VX will be bought out but AS is thriving and yet they get brought up multiple times a year about being bought out. Heck even as bad as a situation AA was in they never were mentioned as being "bought" out. They for some reason have the respect that they are talked about as "merging" with "X" airlines/airways....It doesn't matter if VX were to ever post a profit. They will always be in the neighborhood with B6/AS/G4 as being Bought out by the above 3 I mentioned...


25 Deltal1011man : You haven't been here long eh? outside of AA fanboys, most are calling it a US buy out. I think you are misunderstanding. Generally no one expect VX
26 MIflyer12 : It's not clear that SFO is big (facilities and passenger counts) enough to support two major hub operations - it's a pretty short list of U.S. airport
27 Deltal1011man : errr not completely true here. You happen to be forgetting another carrier that, while they don't have a hub at DFW they do have a hub in Dallas. (at
28 VictorKilo : I agree....and even then, I only see Delta as a bidder of last resort. Delta's most recent additions of multiple narrowbody airplanes have all been s
29 rwy04lga : No worries, most men DO think with 'that' head. However, being British, and the fact that the steering wheel positions are opposite of the Yanks', pe
30 goosebayguy : I think its a bit hasty to suggest VX is on life support. I seem to recall reading that losses were expected for several years as they build up the fl
31 ezra : What about VX's gates at LAX? Could those be of any value to DL as they proceed with their buildup in Los Angeles?
32 Zkpilot : B6 and VX would go nicely together as others have mentioned. AS is the airline that DL wants.
33 PIEAvantiP180 : If they wanted to run a split operation they would do that but i don't think they do. T-5,6 that DL is in and T-3 where VX is at are on opposite side
34 psa1011 : BTW is UA still using gates in T6? Did they help at all with the cost of renovation?
35 Post contains links Polot : The problem is that it has already been several years (VX has been flying for over 5 years now!) and they are still not making money or showing signs
36 Post contains images SocalApproach : Yet the threads keep coming.... I have seen it happen. Quality of Life plays a role greatly. Ill continue to drink the VX kool aid...If that is going
37 luv2fly : At some point the well is going to run dry, you can only make so many trips before that happens.
38 SocalApproach : B6 came to a standstill at one point. Over growing will kill the airline. You cant just keep taking planes and opening new routes hiring etc with all
39 ezra : Is there an airside connector between T2 and T3? Or could there be one? I wonder if DL would ever vacate T5 and relocate to T2 and T3, picking up mor
40 cv880 : DL needs neither VX or B6 except for airplanes. DL can fly anywhere it wants without either. The only reason that DL may get involved with VX would b
41 DeltaMD90 : By then don't you think NGs and OEOs would be in the same boat as MD-90s and 717s? I still don't think so, actually. I'm sure DL looks at everything
42 deltalaw : I am just not sure VA is the west coast competition that DL is really all that concerned with. AA, UA, and AS are all bigger fish to fry for DL contin
43 XT6Wagon : I only said the asset sale would be the highest reward, not that winning the asset sale would be. I just fail to see anything in their assets that wo
44 AeroWesty : With it's well-established hub at SLC, I wonder what VX would add to DL's current priority, which is feeding their growing international presence at
45 FlyASAGuy2005 : Delta has more slots at JFK than they know what to do with. Yes, even at peak times. There's nothing at this point that VX can offer that Delta can't
46 PIEAvantiP180 : RA specifically said during the investor day that DL is looking at and will be specifically targeting NG's and OEO's. He mentioned that in the next 5
47 indiansbucs : I know what they are going to do with some of those... restart Latin American destinations from JFK as soon as JFK Terminal 4 works get finished. Fin
48 Post contains images lightsaber : I'm sorry, where is the ROI for DL to buy VX? Not after debt and obligations as noted: DL couldn't transition the product to their fleet. In general,
49 Philly65 : VX hires a retread from WS and AS to run planning. And what does VX decide to do? SFO-AUS/ANC and now UA and B6 are throwing additional capacity on th
50 DeltaMD90 : Well I guess I'm wrong... sorry Deltal1011man
51 ArmchairCEO : A post-security air-side connector between SFO T1 (DL's current location) and T2 (VX's current location) is being constructed simultaneously with the
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