SCQ83 From United States of America, joined Oct 2012, 459 posts, RR: 0 Reply 3, posted (3 months 7 hours ago) and read 12487 times:
Who is flying that route? I see AA, DL, AZ and UA (EWR) in Malpensa's website. Is someone planning to drop? What's the reason for that 5th freedom flight?
behramjee From Canada, joined Aug 2003, 4439 posts, RR: 43 Reply 4, posted (3 months 6 hours ago) and read 12264 times:
so this means MXP to be increased to 4 daily flights and JFK to triple daily.
The timings are within an hour of EK 93/94 service and it seems like EK is on a mission to get 1 carrier to suspend its own MXP services (in order to boost its own market share) which in all likely hood could end up being TG from the Asia side and DL on the MXP-JFK sector (it can instead offer code share on AZ's own service). AZ suspending PEK will definitely help EK too out of the Italian market place.
Interesting to see how MXP is being expanded to 4 daily whilst FCO is still stuck with double daily only.
On the trans-atlantic sector, they will be going after the J and F class pax big time along with cargo to boost yields.
Now lets wait and see if QR will follow suit as per their earlier statements and launch DOH ATH JFK.
HB-IWC From Greece, joined Sep 2000, 4414 posts, RR: 76 Reply 5, posted (3 months 6 hours ago) and read 12146 times:
A third daily JFK via Europe had been in the making for quite a while, but it was earlier rumored that this service would pass through MAN instead.
Quoting behramjee (Reply 4): so this means MXP to be increased to 4 daily flights and JFK to triple daily
I do not believe MXP will go 4 daily. At least one of the current services will be stopped to allow for this new service. I personally believe that the EK093/094 service will no longer be operated and that EK will ultimately aim to operate the new EK205/206 with A388.
behramjee From Canada, joined Aug 2003, 4439 posts, RR: 43 Reply 6, posted (3 months 6 hours ago) and read 12103 times:
Quoting HB-IWC (Reply 5): I do not believe MXP will go 4 daily. At least one of the current services will be stopped to allow for this new service. I personally believe that the EK093/094 service will no longer be operated and that EK will ultimately aim to operate the new EK205/206 with A388.
i hope so too as that would make perfect sense as 4 daily MXP would be way too much capacity...A380 trans-atlantic will definitely help woo the premium pax towards EK as well
FSDan From United States of America, joined Jan 2011, 623 posts, RR: 2 Reply 7, posted (3 months 5 hours ago) and read 11980 times:
Quoting HB-IWC (Reply 5): A third daily JFK via Europe had been in the making for quite a while, but it was earlier rumored that this service would pass through MAN instead.
Too bad it didn't go through MAN... JFK-MXP has plenty of service already while there is just a single daily 757 on JFK-MAN.
SFO LAX ONT DEN IAH DFW OMA FSD MSP MSN MKE ORD DTW MEM JAN BHM RSW ATL CLT PHL LGA JFK KEF LHR LGW MAD
mesaflyguy From United States of America, joined Dec 2012, 710 posts, RR: 1 Reply 8, posted (3 months 4 hours ago) and read 11768 times:
I personally hope they go with the T7 instead of the whalejet for a few reasons:
1. They are going up against three other airlines, so I don't know how large the market actually is to handle that many seats, especially if they put a 380 on the route.
2. I was just thinking to myself last week how I'll miss seeing the most elegant livery on a T7 coming over my home into JFK as I leave the house in the morning. Hopefully we will still get it, just in the afternoon this time.
ipodguy7 From United States of America, joined Aug 2008, 301 posts, RR: 0 Reply 9, posted (3 months 3 hours ago) and read 11657 times:
Is this a preemptive strike to keep SQ off of MXP-NYC (an often brought-up rumor here on anet to replace their soon ending SIN-EWR non-stop)? Either way, very interesting to see a second Middle East carrier start Europe-NYC flights (after QR announced DOH-ATH-JFK).
migair54 From Spain, joined Jun 2007, 1276 posts, RR: 0 Reply 10, posted (3 months 3 hours ago) and read 11613 times:
Why did they get the 5th freedom rights if the route is already serve by multiple operators?? I can understand a route like BCN-GRU or HAM-JFK because nobody operates the route before, but I don´t understand this one...
LH422 From Germany, joined Sep 2010, 278 posts, RR: 0 Reply 11, posted (3 months 2 hours ago) and read 11362 times:
I was wondering about the HAM-JFK flight, too. Does anyone know why it was allowed and why it was from HAM and not FRA or MUC? Would they be allowed to restart it again?
Quoting migair54 (Reply 10): I can understand a route like BCN-GRU or HAM-JFK because nobody operates the route before, but I don´t understand this one...
Actually, there was a CO flight HAM-EWR which is now UA.
FCAFLYBOY From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2006, 469 posts, RR: 0 Reply 12, posted (3 months 2 hours ago) and read 11285 times:
God I'm bored of EK now. Sometimes something becomes so vast it's no longer interesting and no doubt
in about 10 years there will be no national airlines, just EK.
I'm all for enterprise don't get me wrong, bud sad to think I will probably by flying LGW-TFS on an EK A380 soon ( no doubt at least 10 x daily too)
leftyboarder From Turkey, joined Apr 2008, 647 posts, RR: 1 Reply 13, posted (3 months 1 hour ago) and read 11250 times:
This is indeed the Italian gov't shooting their own foot. With AZ in financial trouble, the last thing they need is EK taking over traffic from them on the North Atlantic. I could understand BEG-JFK or BUD-JFK on EK as there is no current direct service or a home carrier able to start one, but MXP-JFK on EK seems absurd with all the direct service already. And it's not as if EK can't fly this direct and need a stop en route.
Thomas_Jaeger From Switzerland, joined Apr 2002, 2266 posts, RR: 31 Reply 14, posted (3 months 1 hour ago) and read 11244 times:
Quoting LH422 (Reply 11): I was wondering about the HAM-JFK flight, too. Does anyone know why it was allowed and why it was from HAM and not FRA or MUC? Would they be allowed to restart it again?
The UAE were granted these traffic rights from Germany before Emirates even had any such ambitions. I believe they still hold the traffic rights to operate via Germany to any other country that allows them to.
Quoting FCAFLYBOY (Reply 12):
I'm all for enterprise don't get me wrong, bud sad to think I will probably by flying LGW-TFS on an EK A380 soon ( no doubt at least 10 x daily too)
Highly unlikely will operate many intra-EU services in addition to MLA-LCA.
Swiss aviation news junkie living all over the place
FSDan From United States of America, joined Jan 2011, 623 posts, RR: 2 Reply 16, posted (2 months 4 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 10295 times:
Quoting behramjee (Reply 4): DL on the MXP-JFK sector (it can instead offer code share on AZ's own service).
I would actually expect AZ to drop MXP-JFK rather than DL. AZ has so few long haul flights from MXP, while DL has a massive TATL hub at JFK. DL also uses their more premium-heavy 764 on the JFK-MXP route. I'm not sure if AZ has a decent alternative.
SFO LAX ONT DEN IAH DFW OMA FSD MSP MSN MKE ORD DTW MEM JAN BHM RSW ATL CLT PHL LGA JFK KEF LHR LGW MAD
lightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 10663 posts, RR: 100 Reply 17, posted (2 months 4 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 9860 times:
Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 1):
What a terrible idea, especially having recently experienced JFKHAM....
I'm not excited about this route. Anyone know more about the business case?
Quoting HB-IWC (Reply 5): but it was earlier rumored that this service would pass through MAN instead.
IMHO a better business case. I'd like to know the thoughts behind MXP.
727forever From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 783 posts, RR: 5 Reply 18, posted (2 months 4 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 9862 times:
Quoting FCAFLYBOY (Reply 12): God I'm bored of EK now. Sometimes something becomes so vast it's no longer interesting and no doubt
in about 10 years there will be no national airlines, just EK.
This is capacity dumping, pure and simple. The middle east countries and their subsidized airlines are realizing that the oil bubble is about to burst and they must find new industry to continue funding their lavish lifestyles in a land that is good for nothing but oil. They are also realizing that people aren't going to go to the Arabian peninsula in mass for tourism. They are using their airlines to kill thriving national airlines of other countries to build up an industry that is a fiat for their countries. By the time the World realizes what is going on, it will be too late and the only airlines left, outside of China, will be EK, QR, and TK.
Polot From United States of America, joined Jul 2011, 1497 posts, RR: 0 Reply 20, posted (2 months 4 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 9582 times:
Quoting nimool (Reply 19): Like im gonna fly DXB-MXP-JFK?
This is obviously targeted mainly towards MXP-JFK local traffic. If someone wants to fly between Dubai and New York EK would gladly sell them a ticket on one of their nonstop flights. Only (well, mostly) people too cheap to to purchase those will fly JFK-MXP-DXB.
panamair From United States of America, joined Oct 2001, 4583 posts, RR: 26 Reply 21, posted (2 months 4 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 9389 times:
Quoting behramjee (Reply 4): EK is on a mission to get 1 carrier to suspend its own MXP services (in order to boost its own market share) which in all likely hood could end up being TG from the Asia side and DL on the MXP-JFK sector (it can instead offer code share on AZ's own service).
It won't be that easy. Fifth freedom flights such as these are difficult by nature, even if it's Emirates. There are very few viable fifth freedom routes left in the world (SQ's SFO-HKG is a notable exception, but even SQ has to discount from time to time on its LAX-NRT and FRA-JFK services). No matter how superior people think EK's product may be, the other carriers on the route (AZ, DL, AA, UA) all have the natural 'home field' advantage on either or both sides of this route in terms of point-of-sale, passenger base, etc.
JEKY From Italy, joined Mar 2005, 30 posts, RR: 0 Reply 22, posted (2 months 4 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 9273 times:
Any chances to see the mighty A380 on the route? when will tickets go on sell from?
Hope very soon as I am flying to the big apple in November this year.
Meanwhile watching the 380 fly over my house daily would be just coooooooool!!!
FoxBravo From United States of America, joined Nov 2003, 2806 posts, RR: 5 Reply 23, posted (2 months 4 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 8865 times:
Quoting panamair (Reply 21): It won't be that easy. Fifth freedom flights such as these are difficult by nature, even if it's Emirates. There are very few viable fifth freedom routes left in the world (SQ's SFO-HKG is a notable exception, but even SQ has to discount from time to time on its LAX-NRT and FRA-JFK services). No matter how superior people think EK's product may be, the other carriers on the route (AZ, DL, AA, UA) all have the natural 'home field' advantage on either or both sides of this route in terms of point-of-sale, passenger base, etc.
As much as I welcome any new service at JFK, I would agree with this--at least from a passenger yield perspective. SQ often has very low fares, including in premium classes, on FRA-JFK. Same with CX on JFK-YVR.
However, I remember hearing that the primary reason for EK's previous HAM flight was cargo, specifically the additional amounts that can be carried with a fuel stop. And the 773ER holds a massive amount of belly cargo. If that's what is driving this flight, then maybe the passenger traffic is just the icing on the cake. Then again, the HAM service didn't last very long, so who knows...
ytz From Canada, joined Jun 2009, 1444 posts, RR: 23 Reply 24, posted (2 months 4 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 8741 times:
Quoting 727forever (Reply 18): This is capacity dumping, pure and simple.
It's only capacity dumping if you can prove they are selling tickets at a loss. Pursuing market share with lower prices (resulting from bigger airplanes and a more efficient operation), if profitable, is hardly capacity dumping.
Quoting 727forever (Reply 18): The middle east countries and their subsidized airlines are realizing that the oil bubble is about to burst and they must find new industry to continue funding their lavish lifestyles in a land that is good for nothing but oil. They are also realizing that people aren't going to go to the Arabian peninsula in mass for tourism. They are using their airlines to kill thriving national airlines of other countries to build up an industry that is a fiat for their countries. By the time the World realizes what is going on, it will be too late and the only airlines left, outside of China, will be EK, QR, and TK.
Oh please. It's only Westerners who are panicking. If you had grown up in Dubai for example, before EK really became big, it was not uncommon to take SQ to India. People in the rest of the world are used to the idea of fifth freedom.
Moreover, these places all have natural geographic advantages which they are leveraging. It's no different than my country selling our key advantage (resources) or Hong Kong selling its key advantage: a free market on the doorstep of China. The US and Germany are industrial powerhouses and that has come from certain key advantages: society and government structures that promote free enterprise, a highly educated workforce, free capital markets, etc. Do the US and Germany not promote those principles because it suits them?
Now I will agree with you that the Arabian peninsula doesn't have much to offer beyond oil. Their rather restrictive culture makes tourism rather difficult. And there really isn't much in places like Dubai beyond shopping, save the odd novelty (artificial ski hill). That said, think of where the UAE is, and what is around the UAE. India, though economically booming, is still a hole for most of the middle class. Iran is ultra-conservative. Ditto for Saudi. The UAE and Dubai, in particular, is a light in a dark region. Though, I will say, if India ever gets its act together, the Gulf countries will be seriously diminished.
Lastly, what's with the complaints about TK? Turkey is most certainly unlike the Gulf countries. It is a strong tourist destination. It's far more moderate and liberal. And is economically rising, without oil. Grouping the Turks in with the Arabs shows serious ignorance.
2travel2know2 From Panama, joined Apr 2010, 1999 posts, RR: 1 Reply 25, posted (2 months 4 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 8810 times:
Quoting HB-IWC (Reply 5): A third daily JFK via Europe had been in the making for quite a while, but it was earlier rumored that this service would pass through MAN instead.
Or via STN as it has been mentioned on another thread that STM would make it to (MAN airport managed) STN.
MaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 15722 posts, RR: 47 Reply 26, posted (2 months 4 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 8815 times:
Quoting Polot (Reply 20): This is obviously targeted mainly towards MXP-JFK local traffic.
Italy transatlantic is practically 'seasonal' at this point--I'm not sure what local traffic there is to have.
Quoting behramjee (Reply 6): woo the premium pax towards EK as well
I think people way-over estimate how good EK's J product is, and apparently no one is really paying for F according to EK's own statements. Moreover, no one is going to "woo" any premium passengers when they have zero point of sale presence on either end of the route (ie NYC/MIL). The best EK can hope for is something like JFKHAM but with two fewer engines
FoxBravo From United States of America, joined Nov 2003, 2806 posts, RR: 5 Reply 27, posted (2 months 4 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 8841 times:
Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 26): I think people way-over estimate how good EK's J product is
This is true. Perhaps their A380 J class is a cut above, but I don't think their 77W J class offers much more than DL or AZ's new products. Even SQ, whose A380/77W premium classes top pretty much anything else across the Atlantic, seems to struggle at times to fill their JFK-FRA flight. Maybe there's some fashion industry traffic between JFK and MXP but it can't be much.
I still suspect that cargo might be driving this route though.
mcogator From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 96 posts, RR: 0 Reply 28, posted (2 months 4 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 8626 times:
Quoting 727forever (Reply 18): The middle east countries and their subsidized airlines are realizing that the oil bubble is about to burst and they must find new industry to continue funding their lavish lifestyles in a land that is good for nothing but oil.
Are you comparing Dubai to Saudi Arabia/Kuwaitt etc? Dubai has very little oil.
Quoting 727forever (Reply 18): They are also realizing that people aren't going to go to the Arabian peninsula in mass for tourism.
Um, yes they are. Dubai is the 8th most visited city in the world by international tourists.
Quoting 727forever (Reply 18): They are using their airlines to kill thriving national airlines of other countries to build up an industry that is a fiat for their countries.
AZ? lol...
Quoting 727forever (Reply 18): By the time the World realizes what is going on, it will be too late and the only airlines left, outside of China, will be EK, QR, and TK.
Did you just lump Turkey in with your previous statements?
jayunited From United States of America, joined Jan 2013, 280 posts, RR: 1 Reply 29, posted (2 months 4 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 8115 times:
While I don't think U.S. airlines have any thing to fear from EK on this route I do wonder why are they adding this route so late in the season?
By the time October arrives tourism season to MXP is is winding down and a 773 is a lot of airplane for this route, so why are they adding it in October it just seems strange. Because either this 773 goes out predominately empty on the JFK-MXP sector because U.S. airlines do have home field advantage. Or it will be filled with people looking for a really cheap ticket to DXB because their tourism season is starting to heat up and I would think EK would be trying to force people to take the more expensive nonstop. Either way it looks like EK is shooting themselves in the foot just my opinion
nickofatlanta From Australia, joined May 2000, 1457 posts, RR: 0 Reply 30, posted (2 months 4 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 6900 times:
I think the only other long haul fifth freedom flights that EK operate are BNE and MEL-SIN, SYD-BKK and MEL-KUL. These are similar to the possible MXP-JFK route in that EK does not need to stop there and can and does fly nonstop from all these cities to DXB. The Australian fifth freedom operations seem to have been successful and the QF alliance will no doubt help too. It will be interesting to see if MXP-JFK lasts longer than HAM-JFK if it comes to fruition.
delta2ual From United States of America, joined Dec 2007, 575 posts, RR: 1 Reply 31, posted (2 months 4 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 4802 times:
Quoting behramjee (Reply 4): The timings are within an hour of EK 93/94 service and it seems like EK is on a mission to get 1 carrier to suspend its own MXP services (in order to boost its own market share) which in all likely hood could end up being TG from the Asia side and DL on the MXP-JFK sector (it can instead offer code share on AZ's own service).
I don't think DL (or UA) will end their NYC-MXP services. They both have feed in NYC and DL has a partner in MXP. AA might just keep PHL-MXP and drop JFK. Or AZ, since they are doing poorly anyway.
From the world's largest airline-to the world's largest airline. Delta2ual
dc9northwest From Romania, joined Feb 2007, 1735 posts, RR: 4 Reply 33, posted (2 months 4 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 4705 times:
Quoting delta2ual (Reply 31): I don't think DL (or UA) will end their NYC-MXP services. They both have feed in NYC and DL has a partner in MXP. AA might just keep PHL-MXP and drop JFK. Or AZ, since they are doing poorly anyway.
Well, I don't think both AZ and DL need to serve that route now with the JV. What other long-haul routes does AZ operate from MXP? Just NRT?
MaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 15722 posts, RR: 47 Reply 34, posted (2 months 4 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 4705 times:
Quoting nickofatlanta (Reply 32): I think it's a stretch to say DL has a partner on the MXP end. AZ offers very few connections.
It may not have the connections but it probably has a lot of AZ frequent fliers in MIL who want to stick to Skyteam for travel to NYC and beyond. EK has nothing by comparison.
BMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 14316 posts, RR: 26 Reply 35, posted (2 months 4 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 4705 times:
Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 26): Italy transatlantic is practically 'seasonal' at this point--I'm not sure what local traffic there is to have.
Italy is a very hit and miss market, although I've heard Milan does better than other destinations. I'd be curious to see how traffic to Italy was affected when Fiat bought Chrysler. I know there used to be a private shuttle between Detroit and Stuttgart during the DaimlerChrysler days, but I wonder if there has been an uptick in traffic to Italy. Not enough to support a direct flight on its own, but every little bit helps.
Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
behramjee From Canada, joined Aug 2003, 4439 posts, RR: 43 Reply 36, posted (2 months 4 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 4727 times:
If a 3rd daily JFK service was launched, I would suggest it to be as follows:
EK XXX Dep DXB 1445 Arr JFK 2030
EK XXX Dep JFK 1630 Arr DXB 1330...will connect to 1500-1800 hub wave bank to Asia/GCC/BOM/KHI/DEL/MAA/HYD
In this manner the A380 rotations can be as follows:
EK 203 rotates to EK 204 as per current
EK 201 rotates to the new flight dep JFK at 1630 so 2 hour 15 minute ground time at JFK
New EK XXX above flight rotates with EK 202
However, filling a triple daily A380 on DXB-JFK service I think will be a struggle for EK initially until it gets more bilateral capacity into India.
Btw random question...how much does it cost to operate at variable and at full level an A 380 per hour approx?
gemuser From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 5217 posts, RR: 6 Reply 37, posted (2 months 4 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 4731 times:
Quoting nickofatlanta (Reply 30): I think the only other long haul fifth freedom flights that EK operate are BNE and MEL-SIN, SYD-BKK and MEL-KUL.
Also SYD-AKL, SYD-CHC, BNE-AKL & MEL-AKL
The SYD/MEL/BNE - stop - DXB - Europe are all, from my experience, low yield traffic, up to several hundred dollars cheaper to Europe than SYD/MEL/BNE - DXB -Europe flights. Those 10 abreast B77W plus the extra stop make them unattractive compared to their competitors. Plus who in their right mind would do CHC-SYD-BKK-DXB-Europe when they can do CHC-SIN-Europe? Except at very low fares.
HB-IWC From Greece, joined Sep 2000, 4414 posts, RR: 76 Reply 38, posted (2 months 4 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 4696 times:
Quoting behramjee (Reply 36): If a 3rd daily JFK service was launched, I would suggest it to be as follows
Your proposal certainly makes a lot of sense, yet as you state yourself, this third nonstop flight would need to operate with A388 as well, and that is unlikely to be possible right now. The demand is just not there yet.
Quoting lightsaber (Reply 17): I'm not excited about this route. Anyone know more about the business case?
The business case is that the current EK201/202 rotation is very popular, especially the EK202 evening return from JFK, which is quite a bit more popular than the morning departure EK204. As indicated above, the demand for a third nonstop is likely not there yet, so the risk will be spread with a European destination.
The new flight will offer an evening departure from JFK as well and what EK is looking for is to fill about 30% of the seats with the lower yielding DXB JFK DXB traffic that currently uses the nonstop flight, with the remaining seats to be separately sold on the DXB MXP DXB and MXP JFK MXP sectors. All of that is supposed to increase yields on the EK201/202 rotation, while keeping the new EK205/206 just about afloat.
I envisage that this third flight will upgauge to A388 first before it is eventually turned into a nonstop. That is unless the MXP JFK MXP sectors turn out to be a gold mine, which is unlikely to happen.
I have no idea why MXP was chosen over the original plan of MAN, but the fact that also SQ has shown some interest in MXP as a stopover point for its JFK flight may be indicative of the fact that there is a business case to be made for such a fifth freedom operation.
LH422 From Germany, joined Sep 2010, 278 posts, RR: 0 Reply 39, posted (2 months 4 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 4485 times:
Quoting FoxBravo (Reply 27): Even SQ, whose A380/77W premium classes top pretty much anything else across the Atlantic, seems to struggle at times to fill their JFK-FRA flight.
I think one of the reasons for this is that you can book the flight only to JFK and not any of the codeshares within the States beyond JFK. If I try a booking FRA-BOS on the SQ website it suggests FRA-SIN-HKG-SFO-BOS or worse via PHX at ridiculous prices.
delta2ual From United States of America, joined Dec 2007, 575 posts, RR: 1 Reply 40, posted (2 months 4 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 4093 times:
Quoting BMI727 (Reply 35): Italy is a very hit and miss market, although I've heard Milan does better than other destinations. I'd be curious to see how traffic to Italy was affected when Fiat bought Chrysler. I know there used to be a private shuttle between Detroit and Stuttgart during the DaimlerChrysler days, but I wonder if there has been an uptick in traffic to Italy. Not enough to support a direct flight on its own, but every little bit helps.
It absolutely helps! The Italian Consulate in Detroit was slated for closure but they have decided to keep it open because there are Italians moving to Michigan with Fiat/Chrysler. I was on a discussion board, similar to Airliners but for Italians living abroad, and there was discussion about this very thing. I have been to the Detroit Consulate recently with my father and it seemed busier than normal.
From the world's largest airline-to the world's largest airline. Delta2ual
727forever From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 783 posts, RR: 5 Reply 41, posted (2 months 3 weeks 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 3362 times:
Quoting mcogator (Reply 28): Um, yes they are. Dubai is the 8th most visited city in the world by international tourists.
According to various sources, Dubai nor UAE is in the top 10 for most traveled to destinations.
Have you looked at the financial numbers for LH, AF, KL, IB, etc. Capacity dump is having an effect and it's starting to show.
Quoting mcogator (Reply 28): Did you just lump Turkey in with your previous statements?
Check TK's order book and change in strategy over the last 3 years. They are seeing what the other Middle East carriers are seeing and are adapting their business model. The rest of the industry can sit back and play it as usual, as Qantas has, or they can adapt and fight these forces before it is too late.
Viscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 21465 posts, RR: 24 Reply 42, posted (2 months 3 weeks 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 3332 times:
Quoting mcogator (Reply 28): Dubai is the 8th most visited city in the world by international tourists.
What source are you referring to? In all the sources I can find DXB or the UAE doesn't come close to the top 10 of the world's most popular tourist destinations.
mesaflyguy From United States of America, joined Dec 2012, 710 posts, RR: 1 Reply 43, posted (2 months 3 weeks 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 3280 times:
Say the MXP flight does eventually get upguaged to an a380, will there be an availible gate at T4 for it? If it has an evening departure there will be EK202 and in the winter there will be the SQ 380. Are there enough a380 gates for this aircraft? IF the flight is eventually upped to a whalejet.
gemuser From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 5217 posts, RR: 6 Reply 44, posted (2 months 3 weeks 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 3199 times:
Quoting 727forever (Reply 41): The rest of the industry can sit back and play it as usual, as Qantas has,
What do you mean by this, particularly in relation to Qantas?
To me QF has met the "Middle East" threat quite head on. It's changed its 70 year old strategy to Europe to meet that threat and other changed conditions. Admittedly that was by jumping into bed with EK, but hey, what ever it takes!
727forever From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 783 posts, RR: 5 Reply 45, posted (2 months 3 weeks 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 3011 times:
Quoting gemuser (Reply 44): What do you mean by this, particularly in relation to Qantas?
QF has established this new relationship with EK as a stop gap measure to stop the bleeding on the international side. Jetstar was started to stop the bleeding domestically from Virgin. Too little too late on both accounts from my perspective. Once the smoke gets out of the box, it is really tough to put it back in. The U.S. and European carriers would be wise to look closely at what happened downunder and address it before it reaches critical mass is what I'm saying.
MAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 31116 posts, RR: 74 Reply 46, posted (2 months 3 weeks 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 3005 times:
Quoting delta2ual (Reply 31): I don't think DL (or UA) will end their NYC-MXP services. They both have feed in NYC and DL has a partner in MXP. AA might just keep PHL-MXP and drop JFK. Or AZ, since they are doing poorly anyway.
US does not fly PHLMXP. AA does surprisingly very well in Milan - it launched during Alitalia's most troubled times and AA took advantage of that - and I wouldn't be shocked for MIAMXP to follow it soon enough.
gemuser From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 5217 posts, RR: 6 Reply 47, posted (2 months 3 weeks 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 2913 times:
Quoting 727forever (Reply 45): QF has established this new relationship with EK as a stop gap measure to stop the bleeding on the international side
Stop gap? What is your evidence for that? It is a 10 year agreement. Of course it remains to be seen how successful it is, but early hear say evidence suggest it is having an effect (see Australia Aviation thread).
The EK agreement delivers what a lot of Australians wanted, better access to Europe via QF. OK its not perfect but a lot of people think its the best we are going to get for the time being. Also it allows QF to consecrate on Asian markets as Asian markets and not just transit stops to Europe, another plus point.
Quoting 727forever (Reply 45): Jetstar was started to stop the bleeding domestically from Virgin.
What? Jetstar was started/purchased long before Virgin became a serious problem for QF. Impulse, which became Jetstar was purchased to lower QF cost base, which it did admirably. But that was over 10 years ago things change. Jetstar is still an import part of the Group and will remain so.
You could validly argue that all this should have happened 3-5 years ago and I wouldn't disagree with you, but I doubt it could have, especially the EK agreement, and the very, very late B787 certainly have not helped.
727forever From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 783 posts, RR: 5 Reply 48, posted (2 months 3 weeks 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 2870 times:
Quoting gemuser (Reply 47): What? Jetstar was started/purchased long before Virgin became a serious problem for QF. Impulse, which became Jetstar was purchased to lower QF cost base, which it did admirably. But that was over 10 years ago things change. Jetstar is still an import part of the Group and will remain so.
Fact check. Jetstar was started by QF in 2003 as a direct response to Virgin Blue which was started in 2000 and was digging into the QF network with it's low fares like Ansett never could. Virgin Blue renamed to Virgin Australia with the purchase of the 777-300ER in 2011 for a more comprehensive product.
I generally keep a low profile on these forums and lurk to see what folks are talking about, but I can assure all of you attacking my statements that they spoken from a point of reality and knowledge within the industry. I get weekly briefings from industry organizations that will remain unnamed. This is my last response to this post.
Fact check: Jetstar was NOT started in 2003! Impulse, which QF purchased in 2001/2 was renamed Jetstar in 2003. Jetstar was an expansion of Impulse based on Impulse's then unique (for Australia) labour agreements
RyanairGuru From Australia, joined Oct 2006, 2497 posts, RR: 2 Reply 50, posted (2 months 3 weeks 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 2713 times:
Quoting 727forever (Reply 45): QF has established this new relationship with EK as a stop gap measure to stop the bleeding on the international side. Jetstar was started to stop the bleeding domestically from Virgin.
The "bleeding international side" is recovering, and will return to profitability within 2 years.
This "stop gap measure" will be run for 10 (yes 10) years, and will see QF fundamentally re-orient itself away from low yielding and unprofitable European flying to a greater focus on markets such as Asia.
While SQ and EK have definitely done their fare share to reduce yields from Aus-Europe, yet's remember that this market has always been one of the lowest yielding in the world, and one that QF has consistently struggled in other the last couple of decades.
As for JQ "bleeding"... I would love to see you sources. JQ is profitable, and is certainly not bleeding due to VA. VA's costs are quite a bit higher than JQ's, and right now they are going all out to take on QF, not JQ. If JQ are struggling at all, it is because of TT. But that carriers limited network and dubious past help keep that threat in check.
Quoting 727forever (Reply 48): Fact check. Jetstar was started by QF in 2003 as a direct response to Virgin Blue which was started in 2000 and was digging into the QF network with it's low fares like Ansett never could.
Yes, and I don't think anyone said otherwise
What Gemuser was saying is that at the time (2003) DJ posed next to no threat to QF on its core business: namedly flying corporate and high value customers between SYD, MEL, BNE and PER.
Where you are correct, though, is that DJ's lower cost base meant that QF could not compete on non-core leisure routes, to OOL, MCY, HMI etc. That is a market reality all over the world, see BA struggle at LGW vs EZY (and FR at STN). Legacy costs can't compete with LCCs.
Quoting 727forever (Reply 48): Virgin Blue renamed to Virgin Australia with the purchase of the 777-300ER in 2011 for a more comprehensive product.
And there you have just shot your own credibility...
Fact check. The 77Ws were brought onto property in 2009 (not 11) and were flown as V Australia.
The brand change was driven by the domestic side of the business, as which VBA wanted to increasingly pursue QF in the corporate market. The brand, accompanied with product enhancements, sought to make DJ make QF and less JQ.
One final word: If I were you I would respect Gemuser, he is one of - if not the - the most knowledgeable, reliable, and respected poster in the Australian Aviation threads.
lightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 10663 posts, RR: 100 Reply 51, posted (2 months 3 weeks 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 2640 times:
Quoting HB-IWC (Reply 38): The business case is that the current EK201/202 rotation is very popular, especially the EK202 evening return from JFK, which is quite a bit more popular than the morning departure EK204. As indicated above, the demand for a third nonstop is likely not there yet, so the risk will be spread with a European destination.
Thank you. Combined with your stats, that makes much more sense for EK. I wonder how the MXP-JFK-MXP segment will do on its own... if there is enough demand, we'll see it persist. If not... it will be the 3rd A388 for DXB-JFK some time in the future.
Just to make your comment more balanced it would be fair to say the above airlines keep plane makers both in Europe and across the pond going. Never heard of neither Boeing nor Airbus saying they feel the squeeze during the recession unlike other industries. In addition the vast majority of EK fleet is on lease thru the German financial institutions.
sq_ek_freak From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2000, 1583 posts, RR: 21 Reply 53, posted (2 months 3 weeks 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 2403 times:
Quoting HB-IWC (Reply 38): I have no idea why MXP was chosen over the original plan of MAN, but the fact that also SQ has shown some interest in MXP as a stopover point for its JFK flight may be indicative of the fact that there is a business case to be made for such a fifth freedom operation.
I'd harken a guess that if EK would like to offload some of the lower yielding traffic on the evening direct to Dubai, then the Manchester stop might have been problematic for Indian subcontinent bound transit passengers since the UK has some pretty tight visa regulations for certain passport holders, I understand that even people with airside transfers need visas. Not sure how it works if its a same plane service as the new flight would be, but that's just a guess from my part.
Quoting gemuser (Reply 37): Quoting nickofatlanta (Reply 30):
I think the only other long haul fifth freedom flights that EK operate are BNE and MEL-SIN, SYD-BKK and MEL-KUL.
Also SYD-AKL, SYD-CHC, BNE-AKL & MEL-AKL
The SYD/MEL/BNE - stop - DXB - Europe are all, from my experience, low yield traffic, up to several hundred dollars cheaper to Europe than SYD/MEL/BNE - DXB -Europe flights. Those 10 abreast B77W plus the extra stop make them unattractive compared to their competitors. Plus who in their right mind would do CHC-SYD-BKK-DXB-Europe when they can do CHC-SIN-Europe? Except at very low fares.
We also have BKK-HKG, CMB-SIN, MLE-CMB, Rio-EZE. Not sure about the availability of flights between Lusaka and Harare and Abidjan and Accra, can't remember if we board new passengers for local cities, its been a while since I've done one of those flights.
delta2ual From United States of America, joined Dec 2007, 575 posts, RR: 1 Reply 54, posted (2 months 3 weeks 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 2159 times:
Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 46): US does not fly PHLMXP. AA does surprisingly very well in Milan - it launched during Alitalia's most troubled times and AA took advantage of that - and I wouldn't be shocked for MIAMXP to follow it soon enough.
I could have sworn I saw US in MXP! Must have been FCO (or VCE). I wouldn't be surprised if they started PHL-MXP. MIA-MXP would do well too. There is a large Italian diaspora in MIA (although, for the record a consular officer in Chicago told me there are more Italians in Chicago than MIA. That surprised me).
From the world's largest airline-to the world's largest airline. Delta2ual
MAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 31116 posts, RR: 74 Reply 55, posted (2 months 3 weeks 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 1918 times:
Quoting delta2ual (Reply 54): I wouldn't be surprised if they started PHL-MXP.
I would. It makes no sense to fly PHLMXP and JFKMXP alongside each other. US did fly PHLMXP a few years ago. I believe it operated around 2006-2008.
Quoting delta2ual (Reply 54): (although, for the record a consular officer in Chicago told me there are more Italians in Chicago than MIA. That surprised me).
Italian heritage? Absolutely. Italian born? Probably not. Miami probably has more.
Your first link is just people sharing where they are visiting, the second link is countries, not cities. See below for my source.
Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 42): What source are you referring to? In all the sources I can find DXB or the UAE doesn't come close to the top 10 of the world's most popular tourist destinations.
My original post said, "most visited by international tourists". Cities with large domestic populations, like San Francisco, NYC, Beijing, etc have an inherent disadvantage that the majority of their tourists are domestic. Places like Dubai, Hong Kong, Singapore..etc are going to have mostly international visitors.
Quoting 727forever (Reply 41): Have you looked at the financial numbers for LH, AF, KL, IB, etc. Capacity dump is having an effect and it's starting to show.
But we are talking about AZ in this situation.
Quoting 727forever (Reply 41): Check TK's order book and change in strategy over the last 3 years. They are seeing what the other Middle East carriers are seeing and are adapting their business model. The rest of the industry can sit back and play it as usual, as Qantas has, or they can adapt and fight these forces before it is too late.
This was along the lines of your rant against oil, lavish lifestyles, and barren deserts with no reason to visit. I don't think Turkey falls into the same category as the ME carriers.
lightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 10663 posts, RR: 100 Reply 59, posted (2 months 3 weeks 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 1576 times:
Quoting L0VE2FLY (Reply 58): Why not fly DXB-LED-JFK? Saint Petersburg is one of the largest cities in the world without a non-stop service to NYC.
The only hangup I would find is a potential issue with LED transfers. While MXP is not perfect for transfers, there is potential. I'm surprised there is no LED-JFK flight as that is within easy 767 range. That implies there is no market.
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