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The Mysterious Red & White 736's At LAS  
User currently offlineflaps30 From United States of America, joined May 2009, 283 posts, RR: 0
Posted (1 year 5 months 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 17820 times:

Does anyone have any good info on the mysterious red and white 733's that fly in/out of LAS several times a day? I know they are some sort of govt aircraft taking people to secure areas of the desert (area 54?). But my main question is can these aircraft be tracked by Flightaware?


every day is a good day to fly
63 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineBraniff747SP From United States of America, joined Oct 2008, 2965 posts, RR: 1
Reply 1, posted (1 year 5 months 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 17849 times:

Yeah--they are called 'Janet' (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Janet_(airline)) and they are run by EG&G. They go out to Area 51 and related areas.


The 747 will always be the TRUE queen of the skies!
User currently offlinen7371f From United States of America, joined Jul 2008, 1689 posts, RR: 12
Reply 2, posted (1 year 5 months 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 17754 times:
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Quoting Braniff747SP (Reply 1):
Yeah--they are called 'Janet' (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Janet_(airline)) and they are run by EG&G. They go out to Area 51 and related areas.

I'm nearly certain that EG&G no longer operates the planes - it's the Department of Defense now.

Quoting flaps30 (Thread starter):
Does anyone have any good info on the mysterious red and white 733's

They are 737-600's.


User currently offlinePHX787 From Japan, joined Mar 2012, 7204 posts, RR: 17
Reply 3, posted (1 year 5 months 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 17730 times:

Quoting n7371f (Reply 2):
I'm nearly certain that EG&G no longer operates the planes - it's the Department of Defense now.

I heard they sold the contract a few years back.

Now about their ops - how are their pilots trained, etc ?

Quoting n7371f (Reply 2):
They are 737-600's.

The only US -registered 736s .



One of the FB admins for PHX Spotters. "Zach the Expat!"
User currently offlinen901wa From United States of America, joined Oct 2009, 450 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (1 year 5 months 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 17666 times:

I remember seeing EG&Gs 737-200 in Westerns Hanger in Check as a kid. I asked my Dad, why does those 737 not have the W and only the Red Stripe. They had Western N nbrs. He said they were based in Las Vegas, and belonged to EG&G. They were painted that way so they could blend in with WALs normal 737 ops at LAS. Fast Fwd, I always get a kick when I see the -600 painted in a Simi Western Paint Job. I can hear my Dad telling me the story like it was yesterday. And I still see them in Check, but in a much Bigger Hangar then the one I was in as a Kid  

User currently offlineWesternA318 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 5647 posts, RR: 24
Reply 5, posted (1 year 5 months 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 17613 times:

Quoting n901wa (Reply 4):
I remember seeing EG&Gs 737-200 in Westerns Hanger in Check as a kid. I asked my Dad, why does those 737 not have the W and only the Red Stripe. They had Western N nbrs. He said they were based in Las Vegas, and belonged to EG&G. They were painted that way so they could blend in with WALs normal 737 ops at LAS. Fast Fwd, I always get a kick when I see the -600 painted in a Simi Western Paint Job. I can hear my Dad telling me the story like it was yesterday. And I still see them in Check, but in a much Bigger Hangar then the one I was in as a Kid

LOVE that tale...I adore seeing these birds in LAS any time I get the chance to see them...



Next trip: SLC-LAX-JFK-LAX-SLC on AA, gotta say goodbye to my beloved 762!
User currently offlineBraniff747SP From United States of America, joined Oct 2008, 2965 posts, RR: 1
Reply 6, posted (1 year 5 months 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 17595 times:

Quoting n7371f (Reply 2):
EG&G

Well, they don't exist anymore; it's URS Corporation... I still call it EG&G though.

I just checked the Wikipedia page, it says it's run by URS.

Running a couple of the regs through the FAA registry shows that the airplanes are, indeed, owned by the Dept. of the Air Force. Who operates them is unknown.



The 747 will always be the TRUE queen of the skies!
User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 24824 posts, RR: 22
Reply 7, posted (1 year 5 months 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 17573 times:

Quoting n7371f (Reply 2):
Quoting flaps30 (Thread starter):
Does anyone have any good info on the mysterious red and white 733's

They are 737-600's.

I believe they are all ex-Air China 736s. They replaced 732s several years ago.

There have been many threads on the "Janet" operation.

[Edited 2013-02-20 19:24:42]

User currently offlineB757forever From United States of America, joined May 2010, 396 posts, RR: 3
Reply 8, posted (1 year 5 months 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 17538 times:

Quoting Braniff747SP (Reply 6):
Who operates them is unknown.

They may be operated by aliens...  


User currently offlineBraniff747SP From United States of America, joined Oct 2008, 2965 posts, RR: 1
Reply 9, posted (1 year 5 months 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 17314 times:

Quoting B757forever (Reply 8):

Quoting Braniff747SP (Reply 6):
Who operates them is unknown.

They may be operated by aliens...

Oh, I'm sure.

Also, instead of Jet A, the planes run on a mythical revolutionary power source that the government is hiding from us all in order to sustain the ideals of biopower.

True story,    



The 747 will always be the TRUE queen of the skies!
User currently offlinen7371f From United States of America, joined Jul 2008, 1689 posts, RR: 12
Reply 10, posted (1 year 5 months 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 17204 times:
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Quoting PHX787 (Reply 3):
Now about their ops - how are their pilots trained, etc ?

Delta trains the flight attendants and has the maintenance contract on the 736's. In fact I just saw one the other week at ATL TOC. I would assume the pilots are also trained by DL but I've never heard anything definitive.

About the flight attendants...they are sworn to secrecy. During recurring training in ATL with DL, a trainer told me she tried to get info out of them but they kept their lips sealed. I've even heard loose talk here in LAS that the crew is given lie detector tests regularly to make sure they're not loose lips about what's being discussed by passengers on the flights to/from Area 51 and Palmdale.


User currently offlineblueflyer From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 3926 posts, RR: 2
Reply 11, posted (1 year 5 months 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 16989 times:
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Quoting n7371f (Reply 10):
I've even heard loose talk here in LAS that the crew is given lie detector tests regularly to make sure they're not loose lips about what's being discussed by passengers on the flights to/from Area 51 and Palmdale.

I can't imagine that what they might have to say would be that interesting. I'm sure the employees with the most access to confidential information do not commute daily or even weekly, and go in and out far more discreetly, for example by road to Creech or Nellis and flying in to Groom Lake from there.

I wouldn't be surprised to find out the Janet passengers are the cooks, cleaners, clerical workers, etc... The support personnel even the most secret facility needs to run effectively.



I've got $h*t to do
User currently offlineUnited_fan From United States of America, joined Nov 2000, 7452 posts, RR: 7
Reply 12, posted (1 year 5 months 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 16572 times:

Quoting flaps30 (Thread starter):
But my main question is can these aircraft be tracked by Flightaware?

Yes,with a prefix of 'WWW' .



'Empathy was yesterday...Today, you're wasting my Mother-F'ing time' - Heat.
User currently offlinerfields5421 From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 7592 posts, RR: 32
Reply 13, posted (1 year 5 months 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 16482 times:

Quoting flaps30 (Thread starter):
But my main question is can these aircraft be tracked by Flightaware?
http://flightaware.com/live/flight/WWW772

http://flightaware.com/live/flight/WWW211

Remember these are commute to work, commute home flights - so they fly a lot in the early am and late pm.

The only place I've seen a Janet flight on flightaware is to/ from Tonopah Test Range (KTNX) - though from the tracks some flights obviously land at and originate from Groom Lake.

http://flightaware.com/live/flight/WWW474

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Area_51


User currently offlinefcogafa From United Kingdom, joined May 2008, 770 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (1 year 5 months 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 16444 times:

I have always wondered why they don't operate out of Nellis to keep the operation much more out of view of the public...or maybe it is to maintain the idea of something exciting and out of this world going on, rather than the boring truth.

User currently offlineAY-MD11 From Finland, joined Feb 2001, 472 posts, RR: 2
Reply 15, posted (1 year 5 months 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 15412 times:

Quoting rfields5421 (Reply 13):
Quoting flaps30 (Thread starter):
But my main question is can these aircraft be tracked by Flightaware?
http://flightaware.com/live/flight/WWW772

http://flightaware.com/live/flight/WWW211

Remember these are commute to work, commute home flights - so they fly a lot in the early am and late pm.

The only place I've seen a Janet flight on flightaware is to/ from Tonopah Test Range (KTNX) - though from the tracks some flights obviously land at and originate from Groom Lake.

http://flightaware.com/live/flight/WWW474

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Area_51

Looks like they file flight plan to KTNX but go to area 51 if you look the flightaware flight path.  


User currently offlinetxjim From United States of America, joined May 2008, 240 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (1 year 5 months 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 15116 times:

Quoting blueflyer (Reply 11):
I've even heard loose talk here in LAS that the crew is given lie detector tests regularly to make sure they're not loose lips about what's being discussed by passengers on the flights to/from Area 51 and Palmdale.

I can't imagine that what they might have to say would be that interesting. I'm sure the employees with the most access to confidential information do not commute daily or even weekly, and go in and out far more discreetly, for example by road to Creech or Nellis and flying in to Groom Lake from there.



Anyone discussing classified information outside of a secure facility would face consequences, likely the suspension or loss of their clearance. Anyone overhearing classified discussions is obliged to report the incident.

This is taken very seriously.


User currently offlineluv2fly From United States of America, joined May 2003, 12090 posts, RR: 49
Reply 17, posted (1 year 5 months 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 15083 times:

How long are the actual flights? I would imagine the crews really just on board for safety and not any service to speak of.


You can cut the irony with a knife
User currently offlinerfields5421 From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 7592 posts, RR: 32
Reply 18, posted (1 year 5 months 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 14917 times:

Quoting fcogafa (Reply 14):

The regular consistent nature of the flights doesn't mesh well with the sporadic tempo of a military base ops. Also, many, if not most of the people on the Janet flights are contractors with no need to have access to the AFB.

While all these people have high security clearances, their access to information is limited to only what is necessary for their job.

Though much of the work done at the various locations in the restricted areas is military in focus, it is really a civilian operation. Uniformed military don't do the R&D that is most of the focus.

Lastly, the 24 hour operation at LAS actually provides more flexibility and capability than an AFB in these times of reduced military manpower and operations.


User currently offlineduckredbeard From United States of America, joined Aug 2008, 49 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (1 year 5 months 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 14514 times:

I've performed maintenance on some of their planes. For some reason the flight data recorder and cockpit voice recorder are not installed when we get them. FMS databases are also empty. Hmmmm.....

User currently offline26point2 From United States of America, joined Mar 2010, 809 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (1 year 5 months 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 13727 times:

Saw an amusing program on American cable TV recently with some grainy footage of the Janet terminal at LAS.

I don't recall the name of the show but a totally contrived UFO/Area 51 "detective" program. The "discovery" of the "top secret" Janet terminal was made out to be an amazing find by the crew. Of course the film footage was some long-distance jumpy shots taken from well outside the secure area. Very laughable but I don't doubt a few people fell for it.

This terminal is situated among the private plane FBO's on the west side of KLAS. Have been taxiing past it for many years.


User currently offlinerampbro From Canada, joined Nov 2012, 196 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (1 year 5 months 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 12963 times:

Quoting B757forever (Reply 8):
They may be operated by aliens...

Aliens who know how to dial down a radar cross-section  


User currently offlinekhpn From United States of America, joined Sep 2010, 152 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (1 year 5 months 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 12856 times:

When watching a tv show about area 51, I remember seeing that the flights are always filed to TNX but then the flight plans are cancelled once within visual range of area 51.. also, there is a mission in fsx that does this exact thing, you fly the flight plan to TNX but once you get close to area 51 and have the field in sight you "divert" there...

User currently offlineAY-MD11 From Finland, joined Feb 2001, 472 posts, RR: 2
Reply 23, posted (1 year 5 months 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 12589 times:

Quoting khpn (Reply 22):
When watching a tv show about area 51, I remember seeing that the flights are always filed to TNX but then the flight plans are cancelled once within visual range of area 51.. also, there is a mission in fsx that does this exact thing, you fly the flight plan to TNX but once you get close to area 51 and have the field in sight you "divert" there...

When playing fsx beware of the low flying ufo! 


User currently offlineblueflyer From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 3926 posts, RR: 2
Reply 24, posted (1 year 5 months 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 11879 times:
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Quoting txjim (Reply 16):
Anyone discussing classified information outside of a secure facility would face consequences, likely the suspension or loss of their clearance.

I'm not saying they don't know anything confidential or don't take that knowledge seriously, what I am saying is that there are varying degrees of confidentiality and confidential information, and I highly doubt the Janet passengers belong in the highest tiers.

Quoting khpn (Reply 22):
When watching a tv show about area 51, I remember seeing that the flights are always filed to TNX but then the flight plans are cancelled once within visual range of area 51

Planes headed for Groom Lake fly about 5,000 ft lower than those going to TTR due to the short distance.
I do believe that at one time, and perhaps even now still, flights used different call signs for civilian and military ATC.

Quoting luv2fly (Reply 17):
How long are the actual flights?

From 30 to 60 minutes depending on destination. There are a myriad maps online showing the various locations inside the Nevada Test & Training Range. It is big, but not that big and close to LAS, any point can be reached in an hour or less.



I've got $h*t to do
25 Post contains links ItalianFlyer : Here is an alleged Janet skd from 2011. Obviously I can not verify the validity: http://www.dreamlandresort.com/info/janet_schedule_detail.html I saw
26 Post contains links and images iowaman : Most of the "less important" people use to ride buses up there. I suspect that is still the case but I have no idea. It's about a 3-4 hour ride each
27 Post contains images cschleic : Yes, and not that it's visible from many of the strip and non-strip hotels nearby, either.
28 rfields5421 : Ex-military would be likely to be easier to pass the required security clearances.
29 Post contains images JONC777 : LOL, im not sure the words mythical and true story belong together. . It annoys me that these things dont have winglets on them to at least conserve
30 Post contains images vikkyvik : It's true that it's a myth. Indeed, it's not exactly difficult to see and take photos:
31 SAAFNAV : Right along with technology to create Chemtrails on demand? Over such a short distance, I hardly think winglets would make a big difference.
32 flightsimer : Winglets are not certified on the -600's. There is also a mission with the CRJ IIRC, in which u fly to the secret mountain airbase. However, I can't
33 aklrno : When you are in cruise for only about 20 minutes it is possible that the additional weight of winglets does not offset the cost of the winglets and t
34 Post contains images sunilgupta : That makes no sense Engineers, cleaners and everyone in-between fly on those flights. Because many/most(?) are civilians and may not have access to N
35 Post contains links dc1030cf : This link gives the current N numbers of these DOD "Civilian Airliners" http://www.planespotters.net/Product...&type=737&fleet=7053&fleetS
36 Post contains links twincessna340a : This site has good info, old pictures though (still 732s and King Airs) http://www.lazygranch.com/janair.htm
37 JAGflyer : This Area 51 (Tonopah/Groom Lake) place is rumoured to be the cite of investigations into alien/extraterrestrial life or is it a development centre fo
38 RDH3E : It's a Department of Defense research facility. It is where the SR-71 Blackbird predecessor was developed as well as many other top secret projects.
39 Viscount724 : Winglets have never been certified for the 737-600, probably because there are so few likely to ever be modified that the certification costs couldn'
40 Post contains links Alnicocunife : Just do not make them angry! Oops............. http://www.hark.com/clips/zcyslvkwbr-you-made-me-angry
41 7BOEING7 : The -600's were all initially leased to XIN (Air China Southwest Branch) the -200's were mainly T-43A conversions with one coming from PWA.
42 Post contains images a36001 : This may seem a silly question, but once the flights leave LAS, how do they gain access to the restricted air space around the base with out being sho
43 Post contains images n901wa : Checking some WAL -200 Numbers. The ExWestern Janet 737-247s were N4508W, N4510W and N4515W. Funny how N4529W was assigned to a WAL 737-247 and a PWA
44 aklrno : Weren't transponders an offshoot of IFF devices meant to solve exactly that problem? In any case they could always send up an F-15 or F-16 from Nelli
45 flightsimer : Nit picking, I know, but its not a very dry field. Its the site of an old dried up lake.
46 rfields5421 : Both the civilian ATC and the military ATC will track the flight from origin to destination into the restricted airspace. The civilian ATC cannot gra
47 Confuscius : Can't find one on the trip report forum. I wonder how are F, J, Y and B fares and service compared to other airlines?
48 JAGflyer : When was Groom Lake actually a lake? How long ago did it dry up?
49 rfields5421 : There might have been some water on the 'lake' in 2005. Several of the dry lakes in the Death Valley and southern Nevada region got enough rain for w
50 Post contains images pnwtraveler : ET call ATC Home. Whatever the company that runs the actual operation you better believe it that it has CIA or other government ties. The aircraft in
51 United_fan : Makes ya wonder why they keep those high-cycle 732's around . Scrap them and pocket the money.
52 Post contains images spartanmjf : Actually they run on dilithium crystals. Sorry for the reference - a long day.
53 vikkyvik : Dugway Proving Ground in Utah is the one I've heard. It may have been flight and otherwise tested there, but it was probably developed at Lockheed Sk
54 aklrno : That's how they do the annual maintenance on the runways. Seriously. After 70 years or so of use, the lakebed runways at Edwards would be a rutted me
55 Post contains images Devilfish : Are errant civilian aircraft impounded and the pilots given a ticket equivalent to the cost of scrambling the fighters? Somehow, no seat maps for Jan
56 rfields5421 : The US never bills a pilot for the cost of an intercept or other delays created. The aircraft will be closely examined by authorities. For example -
57 BMI727 : Of course, with few rumored exceptions, finding satellites and knowing when they will be overhead is not that challenging. The workers just put away
58 pnwtraveler : I would think everything is indoors and under quite a few feet of lead and concrete roofs that are impervious to radar, heat signatures and even magne
59 Post contains images SAAFNAV : Sir, you must be the first person I've ever heard to use Bing! Have my like! Erich
60 F9animal : As a kid, my friend and I drove around that area often. A kid that was 16, and curious about these planes. We attempted to go in to the parking are, a
61 piedmont727 : im not supprised im shure they dont want anyone getting ahold of them and knowing what the pilots see (when they talk to each other) and codes or air
62 bobloblaw : Ive read they have coffee A 20 min flight doesn't need winglets. People forget winglets add weight to the plane.
63 mayor : When I was in the Air Force in the late 60s and early 70s, stationed at Travis AFB, we used a dry lake bed, Silurian dry lake, north of Baker, CA, fo
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