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The Mysterious Red & White 736's At LAS  
User currently offlineflaps30 From United States of America, joined May 2009, 283 posts, RR: 0
Posted (1 year 4 months 3 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 17805 times:

Does anyone have any good info on the mysterious red and white 733's that fly in/out of LAS several times a day? I know they are some sort of govt aircraft taking people to secure areas of the desert (area 54?). But my main question is can these aircraft be tracked by Flightaware?


every day is a good day to fly
63 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineBraniff747SP From United States of America, joined Oct 2008, 2958 posts, RR: 1
Reply 1, posted (1 year 4 months 3 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 17834 times:

Yeah--they are called 'Janet' (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Janet_(airline)) and they are run by EG&G. They go out to Area 51 and related areas.


The 747 will always be the TRUE queen of the skies!
User currently offlinen7371f From United States of America, joined Jul 2008, 1675 posts, RR: 12
Reply 2, posted (1 year 4 months 3 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 17739 times:
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Quoting Braniff747SP (Reply 1):
Yeah--they are called 'Janet' (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Janet_(airline)) and they are run by EG&G. They go out to Area 51 and related areas.

I'm nearly certain that EG&G no longer operates the planes - it's the Department of Defense now.

Quoting flaps30 (Thread starter):
Does anyone have any good info on the mysterious red and white 733's

They are 737-600's.


User currently offlinePHX787 From Japan, joined Mar 2012, 7114 posts, RR: 17
Reply 3, posted (1 year 4 months 3 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 17715 times:

Quoting n7371f (Reply 2):
I'm nearly certain that EG&G no longer operates the planes - it's the Department of Defense now.

I heard they sold the contract a few years back.

Now about their ops - how are their pilots trained, etc ?

Quoting n7371f (Reply 2):
They are 737-600's.

The only US -registered 736s .



One of the FB admins for PHX Spotters. "Zach the Expat!"
User currently offlinen901wa From United States of America, joined Oct 2009, 445 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (1 year 4 months 3 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 17651 times:

I remember seeing EG&Gs 737-200 in Westerns Hanger in Check as a kid. I asked my Dad, why does those 737 not have the W and only the Red Stripe. They had Western N nbrs. He said they were based in Las Vegas, and belonged to EG&G. They were painted that way so they could blend in with WALs normal 737 ops at LAS. Fast Fwd, I always get a kick when I see the -600 painted in a Simi Western Paint Job. I can hear my Dad telling me the story like it was yesterday. And I still see them in Check, but in a much Bigger Hangar then the one I was in as a Kid  

User currently offlineWesternA318 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 5647 posts, RR: 24
Reply 5, posted (1 year 4 months 3 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 17598 times:

Quoting n901wa (Reply 4):
I remember seeing EG&Gs 737-200 in Westerns Hanger in Check as a kid. I asked my Dad, why does those 737 not have the W and only the Red Stripe. They had Western N nbrs. He said they were based in Las Vegas, and belonged to EG&G. They were painted that way so they could blend in with WALs normal 737 ops at LAS. Fast Fwd, I always get a kick when I see the -600 painted in a Simi Western Paint Job. I can hear my Dad telling me the story like it was yesterday. And I still see them in Check, but in a much Bigger Hangar then the one I was in as a Kid

LOVE that tale...I adore seeing these birds in LAS any time I get the chance to see them...



Next trip: SLC-LAX-JFK-LAX-SLC on AA, gotta say goodbye to my beloved 762!
User currently offlineBraniff747SP From United States of America, joined Oct 2008, 2958 posts, RR: 1
Reply 6, posted (1 year 4 months 3 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 17580 times:

Quoting n7371f (Reply 2):
EG&G

Well, they don't exist anymore; it's URS Corporation... I still call it EG&G though.

I just checked the Wikipedia page, it says it's run by URS.

Running a couple of the regs through the FAA registry shows that the airplanes are, indeed, owned by the Dept. of the Air Force. Who operates them is unknown.



The 747 will always be the TRUE queen of the skies!
User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 24643 posts, RR: 22
Reply 7, posted (1 year 4 months 3 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 17558 times:

Quoting n7371f (Reply 2):
Quoting flaps30 (Thread starter):
Does anyone have any good info on the mysterious red and white 733's

They are 737-600's.

I believe they are all ex-Air China 736s. They replaced 732s several years ago.

There have been many threads on the "Janet" operation.

[Edited 2013-02-20 19:24:42]

User currently offlineB757forever From United States of America, joined May 2010, 395 posts, RR: 3
Reply 8, posted (1 year 4 months 3 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 17523 times:

Quoting Braniff747SP (Reply 6):
Who operates them is unknown.

They may be operated by aliens...  


User currently offlineBraniff747SP From United States of America, joined Oct 2008, 2958 posts, RR: 1
Reply 9, posted (1 year 4 months 3 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 17299 times:

Quoting B757forever (Reply 8):

Quoting Braniff747SP (Reply 6):
Who operates them is unknown.

They may be operated by aliens...

Oh, I'm sure.

Also, instead of Jet A, the planes run on a mythical revolutionary power source that the government is hiding from us all in order to sustain the ideals of biopower.

True story,    



The 747 will always be the TRUE queen of the skies!
User currently offlinen7371f From United States of America, joined Jul 2008, 1675 posts, RR: 12
Reply 10, posted (1 year 4 months 3 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 17189 times:
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Quoting PHX787 (Reply 3):
Now about their ops - how are their pilots trained, etc ?

Delta trains the flight attendants and has the maintenance contract on the 736's. In fact I just saw one the other week at ATL TOC. I would assume the pilots are also trained by DL but I've never heard anything definitive.

About the flight attendants...they are sworn to secrecy. During recurring training in ATL with DL, a trainer told me she tried to get info out of them but they kept their lips sealed. I've even heard loose talk here in LAS that the crew is given lie detector tests regularly to make sure they're not loose lips about what's being discussed by passengers on the flights to/from Area 51 and Palmdale.


User currently offlineblueflyer From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 3901 posts, RR: 2
Reply 11, posted (1 year 4 months 3 weeks ago) and read 16974 times:
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Quoting n7371f (Reply 10):
I've even heard loose talk here in LAS that the crew is given lie detector tests regularly to make sure they're not loose lips about what's being discussed by passengers on the flights to/from Area 51 and Palmdale.

I can't imagine that what they might have to say would be that interesting. I'm sure the employees with the most access to confidential information do not commute daily or even weekly, and go in and out far more discreetly, for example by road to Creech or Nellis and flying in to Groom Lake from there.

I wouldn't be surprised to find out the Janet passengers are the cooks, cleaners, clerical workers, etc... The support personnel even the most secret facility needs to run effectively.



I've got $h*t to do
User currently offlineUnited_fan From United States of America, joined Nov 2000, 7442 posts, RR: 7
Reply 12, posted (1 year 4 months 2 weeks 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 16557 times:

Quoting flaps30 (Thread starter):
But my main question is can these aircraft be tracked by Flightaware?

Yes,with a prefix of 'WWW' .



'Empathy was yesterday...Today, you're wasting my Mother-F'ing time' - Heat.
User currently offlinerfields5421 From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 7503 posts, RR: 32
Reply 13, posted (1 year 4 months 2 weeks 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 16467 times:

Quoting flaps30 (Thread starter):
But my main question is can these aircraft be tracked by Flightaware?
http://flightaware.com/live/flight/WWW772

http://flightaware.com/live/flight/WWW211

Remember these are commute to work, commute home flights - so they fly a lot in the early am and late pm.

The only place I've seen a Janet flight on flightaware is to/ from Tonopah Test Range (KTNX) - though from the tracks some flights obviously land at and originate from Groom Lake.

http://flightaware.com/live/flight/WWW474

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Area_51


User currently offlinefcogafa From United Kingdom, joined May 2008, 750 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (1 year 4 months 2 weeks 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 16429 times:

I have always wondered why they don't operate out of Nellis to keep the operation much more out of view of the public...or maybe it is to maintain the idea of something exciting and out of this world going on, rather than the boring truth.

User currently offlineAY-MD11 From Finland, joined Feb 2001, 472 posts, RR: 2
Reply 15, posted (1 year 4 months 2 weeks 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 15397 times:

Quoting rfields5421 (Reply 13):
Quoting flaps30 (Thread starter):
But my main question is can these aircraft be tracked by Flightaware?
http://flightaware.com/live/flight/WWW772

http://flightaware.com/live/flight/WWW211

Remember these are commute to work, commute home flights - so they fly a lot in the early am and late pm.

The only place I've seen a Janet flight on flightaware is to/ from Tonopah Test Range (KTNX) - though from the tracks some flights obviously land at and originate from Groom Lake.

http://flightaware.com/live/flight/WWW474

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Area_51

Looks like they file flight plan to KTNX but go to area 51 if you look the flightaware flight path.  


User currently offlinetxjim From United States of America, joined May 2008, 240 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (1 year 4 months 2 weeks 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 15101 times:

Quoting blueflyer (Reply 11):
I've even heard loose talk here in LAS that the crew is given lie detector tests regularly to make sure they're not loose lips about what's being discussed by passengers on the flights to/from Area 51 and Palmdale.

I can't imagine that what they might have to say would be that interesting. I'm sure the employees with the most access to confidential information do not commute daily or even weekly, and go in and out far more discreetly, for example by road to Creech or Nellis and flying in to Groom Lake from there.



Anyone discussing classified information outside of a secure facility would face consequences, likely the suspension or loss of their clearance. Anyone overhearing classified discussions is obliged to report the incident.

This is taken very seriously.


User currently offlineluv2fly From United States of America, joined May 2003, 12090 posts, RR: 49
Reply 17, posted (1 year 4 months 2 weeks 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 15068 times:

How long are the actual flights? I would imagine the crews really just on board for safety and not any service to speak of.


You can cut the irony with a knife
User currently offlinerfields5421 From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 7503 posts, RR: 32
Reply 18, posted (1 year 4 months 2 weeks 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 14902 times:

Quoting fcogafa (Reply 14):

The regular consistent nature of the flights doesn't mesh well with the sporadic tempo of a military base ops. Also, many, if not most of the people on the Janet flights are contractors with no need to have access to the AFB.

While all these people have high security clearances, their access to information is limited to only what is necessary for their job.

Though much of the work done at the various locations in the restricted areas is military in focus, it is really a civilian operation. Uniformed military don't do the R&D that is most of the focus.

Lastly, the 24 hour operation at LAS actually provides more flexibility and capability than an AFB in these times of reduced military manpower and operations.


User currently offlineduckredbeard From United States of America, joined Aug 2008, 49 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (1 year 4 months 2 weeks 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 14499 times:

I've performed maintenance on some of their planes. For some reason the flight data recorder and cockpit voice recorder are not installed when we get them. FMS databases are also empty. Hmmmm.....

User currently offline26point2 From United States of America, joined Mar 2010, 803 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (1 year 4 months 2 weeks 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 13712 times:

Saw an amusing program on American cable TV recently with some grainy footage of the Janet terminal at LAS.

I don't recall the name of the show but a totally contrived UFO/Area 51 "detective" program. The "discovery" of the "top secret" Janet terminal was made out to be an amazing find by the crew. Of course the film footage was some long-distance jumpy shots taken from well outside the secure area. Very laughable but I don't doubt a few people fell for it.

This terminal is situated among the private plane FBO's on the west side of KLAS. Have been taxiing past it for many years.


User currently offlinerampbro From Canada, joined Nov 2012, 180 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (1 year 4 months 2 weeks 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 12948 times:

Quoting B757forever (Reply 8):
They may be operated by aliens...

Aliens who know how to dial down a radar cross-section  


User currently offlinekhpn From United States of America, joined Sep 2010, 152 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (1 year 4 months 2 weeks 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 12841 times:

When watching a tv show about area 51, I remember seeing that the flights are always filed to TNX but then the flight plans are cancelled once within visual range of area 51.. also, there is a mission in fsx that does this exact thing, you fly the flight plan to TNX but once you get close to area 51 and have the field in sight you "divert" there...

User currently offlineAY-MD11 From Finland, joined Feb 2001, 472 posts, RR: 2
Reply 23, posted (1 year 4 months 2 weeks 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 12574 times:

Quoting khpn (Reply 22):
When watching a tv show about area 51, I remember seeing that the flights are always filed to TNX but then the flight plans are cancelled once within visual range of area 51.. also, there is a mission in fsx that does this exact thing, you fly the flight plan to TNX but once you get close to area 51 and have the field in sight you "divert" there...

When playing fsx beware of the low flying ufo! 


User currently offlineblueflyer From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 3901 posts, RR: 2
Reply 24, posted (1 year 4 months 2 weeks 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 11864 times:
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Quoting txjim (Reply 16):
Anyone discussing classified information outside of a secure facility would face consequences, likely the suspension or loss of their clearance.

I'm not saying they don't know anything confidential or don't take that knowledge seriously, what I am saying is that there are varying degrees of confidentiality and confidential information, and I highly doubt the Janet passengers belong in the highest tiers.

Quoting khpn (Reply 22):
When watching a tv show about area 51, I remember seeing that the flights are always filed to TNX but then the flight plans are cancelled once within visual range of area 51

Planes headed for Groom Lake fly about 5,000 ft lower than those going to TTR due to the short distance.
I do believe that at one time, and perhaps even now still, flights used different call signs for civilian and military ATC.

Quoting luv2fly (Reply 17):
How long are the actual flights?

From 30 to 60 minutes depending on destination. There are a myriad maps online showing the various locations inside the Nevada Test & Training Range. It is big, but not that big and close to LAS, any point can be reached in an hour or less.



I've got $h*t to do
User currently offlineItalianFlyer From United States of America, joined Nov 2007, 1099 posts, RR: 2
Reply 25, posted (1 year 4 months 2 weeks 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 12933 times:

Here is an alleged Janet skd from 2011. Obviously I can not verify the validity:

http://www.dreamlandresort.com/info/janet_schedule_detail.html

I saw a F/A job posting last year and lets just say...it was hardly an open house in the Swan Room at the Ramada Airport-South type event. IIRC you needed to complete an SF86 clearance application and be able to hold SCI ( Sensitive Compartmented Information) authorization.


User currently offlineiowaman From United States of America, joined May 2004, 4358 posts, RR: 6
Reply 26, posted (1 year 4 months 2 weeks 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 12459 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
FORUM MODERATOR

Quoting blueflyer (Reply 11):
I wouldn't be surprised to find out the Janet passengers are the cooks, cleaners, clerical workers, etc... The support personnel even the most secret facility needs to run effectively.

Most of the "less important" people use to ride buses up there. I suspect that is still the case but I have no idea. It's about a 3-4 hour ride each way by ground. The weather is usually good but can be dicey in the higher elevations this time of the year (there was quite a bit of snow in the TNX area with this last storm system).

Quoting rfields5421 (Reply 13):
The only place I've seen a Janet flight on flightaware is to/ from Tonopah Test Range (KTNX) - though from the tracks some flights obviously land at and originate from Groom Lake.

I've seen them on occasion to PMD as well. Here is one from last weekend on LAS-PMD:

http://flightaware.com/live/flight/W...1/history/20130216/1515Z/KLAS/KPMD

Quoting fcogafa (Reply 14):
I have always wondered why they don't operate out of Nellis to keep the operation much more out of view of the public...or maybe it is to maintain the idea of something exciting and out of this world going on, rather than the boring truth.
Quoting rfields5421 (Reply 18):
Lastly, the 24 hour operation at LAS actually provides more flexibility and capability than an AFB in these times of reduced military manpower and operations.

   The flights usually get priority ATC handling and as you said they have a "non-flashy" terminal away from everything else. I listen to LAS Tower on occasion and it seems to me their pilots usually sound senior on the radio - I wonder if some of them are ex-Air Force.

LAS is also probably a quicker drive for most of the employees and contractors that go up there. LSV is on the far northeast side of town where as LAS is kind of south central in the middle of the valley. Much easier to access LAS from Henderson and Summerlin (the nicer middle class areas) than LSV.

Quoting n7371f (Reply 10):
Delta trains the flight attendants and has the maintenance contract on the 736's. In fact I just saw one the other week at ATL TOC. I would assume the pilots are also trained by DL but I've never heard anything definitive
Quoting duckredbeard (Reply 19):
I've performed maintenance on some of their planes. For some reason the flight data recorder and cockpit voice recorder are not installed when we get them. FMS databases are also empty. Hmmmm.....

Both those statements are very interesting thanks for sharing.

Quoting khpn (Reply 22):
When watching a tv show about area 51, I remember seeing that the flights are always filed to TNX but then the flight plans are cancelled once within visual range of area 51.. also, there is a mission in fsx that does this exact thing, you fly the flight plan to TNX but once you get close to area 51 and have the field in sight you "divert" there...

   They also change the call sign as well on flight simulator. I'm assuming this is what they do in real life but who knows.



Next flights: WN DSM-LAS-PHX, US PHX-SJD. Return: US SJD-PHX, WN PHX-MDW-DSM
User currently offlinecschleic From United States of America, joined Feb 2002, 1246 posts, RR: 0
Reply 27, posted (1 year 4 months 2 weeks 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 12627 times:

Quoting 26point2 (Reply 20):
Saw an amusing program on American cable TV recently with some grainy footage of the Janet terminal at LAS.

I don't recall the name of the show but a totally contrived UFO/Area 51 "detective" program. The "discovery" of the "top secret" Janet terminal was made out to be an amazing find by the crew. Of course the film footage was some long-distance jumpy shots taken from well outside the secure area. Very laughable but I don't doubt a few people fell for it.

This terminal is situated among the private plane FBO's on the west side of KLAS. Have been taxiing past it for many years.

Yes, and not that it's visible from many of the strip and non-strip hotels nearby, either.
 


User currently offlinerfields5421 From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 7503 posts, RR: 32
Reply 28, posted (1 year 4 months 2 weeks 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 11455 times:

Quoting iowaman (Reply 26):
I wonder if some of them are ex-Air Force.

Ex-military would be likely to be easier to pass the required security clearances.


User currently offlineJONC777 From United States of America, joined Jun 2012, 125 posts, RR: 0
Reply 29, posted (1 year 4 months 2 weeks 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 11276 times:

Quoting Braniff747SP (Reply 9):
Also, instead of Jet A, the planes run on a mythical revolutionary power source that the government is hiding from us all in order to sustain the ideals of biopower.

True story,

LOL, im not sure the words mythical and true story belong together. .  

It annoys me that these things dont have winglets on them to at least conserve fuel considering how much there flown. But, the military doesnt give a flip about spending!


User currently offlinevikkyvik From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 9701 posts, RR: 27
Reply 30, posted (1 year 4 months 2 weeks 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 10622 times:
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Quoting JONC777 (Reply 29):
LOL, im not sure the words mythical and true story belong together. .

It's true that it's a myth.  
Quoting 26point2 (Reply 20):
Saw an amusing program on American cable TV recently with some grainy footage of the Janet terminal at LAS.

I don't recall the name of the show but a totally contrived UFO/Area 51 "detective" program. The "discovery" of the "top secret" Janet terminal was made out to be an amazing find by the crew. Of course the film footage was some long-distance jumpy shots taken from well outside the secure area. Very laughable but I don't doubt a few people fell for it.

This terminal is situated among the private plane FBO's on the west side of KLAS. Have been taxiing past it for many years.

Indeed, it's not exactly difficult to see and take photos:




"Two and a Half Men" was filmed in front of a live ostrich.
User currently offlineSAAFNAV From South Africa, joined Mar 2010, 259 posts, RR: 0
Reply 31, posted (1 year 4 months 2 weeks 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 10495 times:

Quoting Braniff747SP (Reply 9):

Also, instead of Jet A, the planes run on a mythical revolutionary power source that the government is hiding from us all in order to sustain the ideals of biopower.

Right along with technology to create Chemtrails on demand?

Quoting JONC777 (Reply 29):

It annoys me that these things dont have winglets on them to at least conserve fuel considering how much there flown. But, the military doesnt give a flip about spending!

Over such a short distance, I hardly think winglets would make a big difference.



On-board Direction Consultant
User currently offlineflightsimer From United States of America, joined Aug 2009, 530 posts, RR: 1
Reply 32, posted (1 year 4 months 2 weeks 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 10317 times:

Quoting JONC777 (Reply 29):

Winglets are not certified on the -600's.

Quoting khpn (Reply 22):
also, there is a mission in fsx that does this exact thing, you fly the flight plan to TNX but once you get close to area 51 and have the field in sight you "divert" there...

There is also a mission with the CRJ IIRC, in which u fly to the secret mountain airbase. However, I can't remember if the mission was based in the US or not.

This too is partly true as many believe they have moved the majority of really really secret stuff out of Area 51 to a new underground base in Utah or Colorado ( can't remember which), due to a decrease in "UFO sightings" in the area.

[Edited 2013-02-21 13:02:38]


Commercial Pilot- SEL, MEL, Instrument
User currently offlineaklrno From United States of America, joined Dec 2010, 914 posts, RR: 0
Reply 33, posted (1 year 4 months 2 weeks 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 9845 times:

Quoting JONC777 (Reply 29):
It annoys me that these things dont have winglets on them to at least conserve fuel considering how much there flown. But, the military doesnt give a flip about spending!

When you are in cruise for only about 20 minutes it is possible that the additional weight of winglets does not offset the cost of the winglets and the cruise fuel saving.

Quoting cschleic (Reply 27):
Yes, and not that it's visible from many of the strip and non-strip hotels nearby, either.
 

A few months ago I was on the top floor of the Mandalay Bay Tower at 5:15 or so watching all the Janet planes arriving and unloading. That huge parking lot next to the terminal emptied quickly.

I was at a meeting at Nellis AFB a few years ago and mentioned Area 51. The Air Force people all stopped talking for a moment, then realized it was OK to talk about these days. At one time saying "Area 51" could get you a court martial.


User currently offlinesunilgupta From United States of America, joined Nov 2000, 775 posts, RR: 14
Reply 34, posted (1 year 4 months 2 weeks 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 9790 times:

Quoting blueflyer (Reply 11):
I'm sure the employees with the most access to confidential information do not commute daily or even weekly, and go in and out far more discreetly, for example by road to Creech or Nellis and flying in to Groom Lake from there.

I wouldn't be surprised to find out the Janet passengers are the cooks, cleaners, clerical workers, etc... The support personnel even the most secret facility needs to run effectively.

That makes no sense   Engineers, cleaners and everyone in-between fly on those flights.

Quoting fcogafa (Reply 14):
I have always wondered why they don't operate out of Nellis to keep the operation much more out of view of the public...or maybe it is to maintain the idea of something exciting and out of this world going on, rather than the boring truth.

Because many/most(?) are civilians and may not have access to Nellis. Besides, you can see everything at Nellis just as you can at LAS  

My favorite program was about the UFO watchers who saw the landing lights of the 732s going into Groom Lake. They were positioned directly in front of the aircraft approach so from their perspective it looked as though the lights were hovering and slowly descending - their conclusion: an alien ship test flight... LOL!

Sunil


User currently offlinedc1030cf From United States of America, joined Sep 2012, 62 posts, RR: 0
Reply 35, posted (1 year 4 months 2 weeks 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 9533 times:
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This link gives the current N numbers of these DOD "Civilian Airliners"

http://www.planespotters.net/Product...&type=737&fleet=7053&fleetStatus=1

Looks like these plane were at one time all GECAS birds, two of them came from CA lease return. Using the tail numbers and then check with FlightAware will get some interesting returns.


User currently offlinetwincessna340a From United States of America, joined Mar 2012, 70 posts, RR: 0
Reply 36, posted (1 year 4 months 2 weeks 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 9422 times:

This site has good info, old pictures though (still 732s and King Airs)

http://www.lazygranch.com/janair.htm


User currently offlineJAGflyer From Canada, joined Aug 2004, 3492 posts, RR: 4
Reply 37, posted (1 year 4 months 2 weeks 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 8257 times:

This Area 51 (Tonopah/Groom Lake) place is rumoured to be the cite of investigations into alien/extraterrestrial life or is it a development centre for defence products (missiles/bombs)? I highly doubt the US would have such a large fleet of aircraft for investigations relating to extraterrestrials. Before you say they are real, I do not believe at all in aliens or people from other planets. According to Wikipedia it seems like the Groom Lake (which is actually a very dry field) is used for testing different defence mechanisms. That is very plausible but aliens, nah.


Support the beer and soda can industry, recycle old airplanes!
User currently offlineRDH3E From United States of America, joined Mar 2011, 1570 posts, RR: 2
Reply 38, posted (1 year 4 months 2 weeks 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 8187 times:

Quoting JAGflyer (Reply 37):
or is it a development centre for defence products (missiles/bombs)?

It's a Department of Defense research facility. It is where the SR-71 Blackbird predecessor was developed as well as many other top secret projects.


User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 24643 posts, RR: 22
Reply 39, posted (1 year 4 months 2 weeks 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 7958 times:

Quoting aklrno (Reply 33):
Quoting JONC777 (Reply 29):
It annoys me that these things dont have winglets on them to at least conserve fuel considering how much there flown. But, the military doesnt give a flip about spending!

When you are in cruise for only about 20 minutes it is possible that the additional weight of winglets does not offset the cost of the winglets and the cruise fuel saving.

Winglets have never been certified for the 737-600, probably because there are so few likely to ever be modified that the certification costs couldn't be justified.


User currently offlineAlnicocunife From United States of America, joined Mar 2011, 157 posts, RR: 0
Reply 40, posted (1 year 4 months 2 weeks 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 7435 times:

Just do not make them angry!

Oops............. http://www.hark.com/clips/zcyslvkwbr-you-made-me-angry


User currently offline7BOEING7 From United States of America, joined Oct 2012, 1473 posts, RR: 8
Reply 41, posted (1 year 4 months 2 weeks 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 7066 times:

Quoting dc1030cf (Reply 35):
Looks like these plane were at one time all GECAS birds, two of them came from CA lease return. Using the tail numbers and then check with FlightAware will get some interesting returns.

The -600's were all initially leased to XIN (Air China Southwest Branch) the -200's were mainly T-43A conversions with one coming from PWA.


User currently offlinea36001 From Australia, joined Sep 2012, 164 posts, RR: 0
Reply 42, posted (1 year 4 months 2 weeks 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 6271 times:

This may seem a silly question, but once the flights leave LAS, how do they gain access to the restricted air space around the base with out being shot down or what ever they do? Is there are special transponder code or call sign? I mean how do the ATC guys at Groom Lake know the flight is a Janet flight?  

User currently offlinen901wa From United States of America, joined Oct 2009, 445 posts, RR: 0
Reply 43, posted (1 year 4 months 2 weeks 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 5799 times:

Checking some WAL -200 Numbers. The ExWestern Janet 737-247s were N4508W, N4510W and N4515W. Funny how N4529W was assigned to a WAL 737-247 and a PWA 737-275. Sorry, but the picture is bad, and was shot from a moving bus. Some -200/T43A stored at DM.



User currently offlineaklrno From United States of America, joined Dec 2010, 914 posts, RR: 0
Reply 44, posted (1 year 4 months 2 weeks 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 5718 times:

Quoting a36001 (Reply 42):

This may seem a silly question, but once the flights leave LAS, how do they gain access to the restricted air space around the base with out being shot down or what ever they do? Is there are special transponder code or call sign? I mean how do the ATC guys at Groom Lake know the flight is a Janet flight?  

Weren't transponders an offshoot of IFF devices meant to solve exactly that problem?

In any case they could always send up an F-15 or F-16 from Nellis to look at it if they are in doubt. Most of the flight time is spent flying over absolutely nothing so there is no rush. More interesting is how do they get through Red Flag exercises that surround Area 51? It gets busy there. A few times a year they operate full scale air battles over the Nevada Test Range. At least they aren't setting off any nukes these days.


User currently offlineflightsimer From United States of America, joined Aug 2009, 530 posts, RR: 1
Reply 45, posted (1 year 4 months 2 weeks 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 5589 times:

Quoting JAGflyer (Reply 37):
According to Wikipedia it seems like the Groom Lake (which is actually a very dry field

Nit picking, I know, but its not a very dry field. Its the site of an old dried up lake.



Commercial Pilot- SEL, MEL, Instrument
User currently offlinerfields5421 From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 7503 posts, RR: 32
Reply 46, posted (1 year 4 months 2 weeks 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 5589 times:

Quoting a36001 (Reply 42):
This may seem a silly question, but once the flights leave LAS, how do they gain access to the restricted air space around the base with out being shot down or what ever they do? Is there are special transponder code or call sign? I mean how do the ATC guys at Groom Lake know the flight is a Janet flight?

Both the civilian ATC and the military ATC will track the flight from origin to destination into the restricted airspace. The civilian ATC cannot grant clearance to enter some of the restricted areas. For those clearance has to be requested from the appropriate agency - which is often DOE for some areas. Once the clearance has been given - the exact requirements are communicated to the flight crew.

Believe me - they know it is the approved flight.

These "Janet" flights occur at least a dozen times a day. The process is rigid, but well understood and with adequate safeguards to prevent an unauthorized aircraft from spoofing a Janet flight.


Any unapproved aircraft straying into the restricted airspace would be intercepted by fighters from Nellis and escorted to a landing zone if it did not respond to ATC directions immediately.

Military pilots from other bases at Nellis for exercises have been grounded for straying into the restricted areas for which they are not approved.


By and large the restricted airspace isn't covering any area with day to day activity which must be shielded from uncleared eyes.

Folks familiar with the area know when something is occuring out on the ranges, because Janet flights will be cancelled, along with the other DOE and military logistics flights in the normal day to day flight activity.

If you are not familiar with the charts and area - R-4808N which covers the Groom Lake airfield / Area 51 base - also covers the Yucca Flats nuclear test range - Area 1, Area 2, Area 3, Area 4, Area 6, Area 7, Area 8, Area 9 and Area 10. Some 739 known nuclear test explosions were carried out in that range.


User currently offlineConfuscius From United States of America, joined Aug 2001, 3826 posts, RR: 1
Reply 47, posted (1 year 4 months 2 weeks 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 5429 times:

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 7):
There have been many threads on the "Janet" operation.

Can't find one on the trip report forum. I wonder how are F, J, Y and B fares and service compared to other airlines?



Ain't I a stinker?
User currently offlineJAGflyer From Canada, joined Aug 2004, 3492 posts, RR: 4
Reply 48, posted (1 year 4 months 2 weeks 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 5163 times:

Quoting flightsimer (Reply 45):

When was Groom Lake actually a lake? How long ago did it dry up?



Support the beer and soda can industry, recycle old airplanes!
User currently offlinerfields5421 From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 7503 posts, RR: 32
Reply 49, posted (1 year 4 months 2 weeks 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 4755 times:

Quoting JAGflyer (Reply 48):
When was Groom Lake actually a lake? How long ago did it dry up?

There might have been some water on the 'lake' in 2005. Several of the dry lakes in the Death Valley and southern Nevada region got enough rain for water on the lakes that year, which dried up again quickly.

Edwards AFB is another similar dry lake converted to military usage.

However, the basic dry lake phenomena in that region is much older than human history. Part of the entire southwest US, northern Mexico desert region which extends across much of the states of California, Nevada, Utah, Arizona, Colorado, New Mexico and Texas.


User currently offlinepnwtraveler From Canada, joined Jun 2007, 2224 posts, RR: 12
Reply 50, posted (1 year 4 months 2 weeks 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 4310 times:

Quoting Braniff747SP (Reply 9):
Quoting B757forever (Reply 8):

Quoting Braniff747SP (Reply 6):
Who operates them is unknown.

They may be operated by aliens...

Oh, I'm sure.

Also, instead of Jet A, the planes run on a mythical revolutionary power source that the government is hiding from us all in order to sustain the ideals of biopower.

True story,    

ET call ATC Home.

Whatever the company that runs the actual operation you better believe it that it has CIA or other government ties.

The aircraft in storage will probably stay there for a while. Should operations require a build up of personnel it would be the quickest way to up the volume.

Quoting Confuscius (Reply 47):
Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 7):
There have been many threads on the "Janet" operation.

Can't find one on the trip report forum. I wonder how are F, J, Y and B fares and service compared to other airlines?

And how about what Alliance and FF program. 


User currently offlineUnited_fan From United States of America, joined Nov 2000, 7442 posts, RR: 7
Reply 51, posted (1 year 4 months 2 weeks 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 4146 times:

Quoting n901wa (Reply 43):
Checking some WAL -200 Numbers. The ExWestern Janet 737-247s were N4508W, N4510W and N4515W. Funny how N4529W was assigned to a WAL 737-247 and a PWA 737-275. Sorry, but the picture is bad, and was shot from a moving bus. Some -200/T43A stored at DM.

Makes ya wonder why they keep those high-cycle 732's around . Scrap them and pocket the money.



'Empathy was yesterday...Today, you're wasting my Mother-F'ing time' - Heat.
User currently offlinespartanmjf From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 491 posts, RR: 0
Reply 52, posted (1 year 4 months 2 weeks 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 3911 times:

Quoting Braniff747SP (Reply 9):
Also, instead of Jet A, the planes run on a mythical revolutionary power source that the government is hiding from us all in order to sustain the ideals of biopower.

Actually they run on dilithium crystals.

Sorry for the reference - a long day.


  



"Nuts to the man in 21D!"
User currently offlinevikkyvik From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 9701 posts, RR: 27
Reply 53, posted (1 year 4 months 2 weeks 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 3732 times:
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Quoting flightsimer (Reply 32):
This too is partly true as many believe they have moved the majority of really really secret stuff out of Area 51 to a new underground base in Utah or Colorado ( can't remember which), due to a decrease in "UFO sightings" in the area.

Dugway Proving Ground in Utah is the one I've heard.

Quoting RDH3E (Reply 38):
It's a Department of Defense research facility. It is where the SR-71 Blackbird predecessor was developed as well as many other top secret projects.

It may have been flight and otherwise tested there, but it was probably developed at Lockheed Skunk Works (in Burbank at that time, in Palmdale now).

Quoting JAGflyer (Reply 48):
When was Groom Lake actually a lake? How long ago did it dry up?

It's a salt flat, which basically means it's a lake in an area where evaporation usually exceeds precipitation. For example, when I went to the Edwards Air Show in 2005 or so, Rogers and Rosamond Dry Lakes actually had some standing water in parts of them, due to recent rain.



"Two and a Half Men" was filmed in front of a live ostrich.
User currently offlineaklrno From United States of America, joined Dec 2010, 914 posts, RR: 0
Reply 54, posted (1 year 4 months 2 weeks 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 3488 times:

Quoting vikkyvik (Reply 53):
It's a salt flat, which basically means it's a lake in an area where evaporation usually exceeds precipitation. For example, when I went to the Edwards Air Show in 2005 or so, Rogers and Rosamond Dry Lakes actually had some standing water in parts of them, due to recent rain.

That's how they do the annual maintenance on the runways. Seriously. After 70 years or so of use, the lakebed runways at Edwards would be a rutted mess if it weren't for the fact that it does rain once in a while and the rain and drying process smooths out the lake beds.


User currently offlineDevilfish From Philippines, joined Jan 2006, 4770 posts, RR: 1
Reply 55, posted (1 year 4 months 2 weeks 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 3397 times:

Quoting rfields5421 (Reply 46):
Any unapproved aircraft straying into the restricted airspace would be intercepted by fighters from Nellis and escorted to a landing zone if it did not respond to ATC directions immediately.

Are errant civilian aircraft impounded and the pilots given a ticket equivalent to the cost of scrambling the fighters?   

Quoting Confuscius (Reply 47):
I wonder how are F, J, Y and B fares and service compared to other airlines?

Somehow, no seat maps for Janet come up on SeatGuru...but for employee shuttles, I guess an egalitarian single or at most two-class layout is reasonable expectation.  

[Edited 2013-02-22 19:33:18]


"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
User currently offlinerfields5421 From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 7503 posts, RR: 32
Reply 56, posted (1 year 4 months 2 weeks 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 3315 times:

Quoting Devilfish (Reply 55):
Are errant civilian aircraft impounded and the pilots given a ticket equivalent to the cost of scrambling the fighters?

The US never bills a pilot for the cost of an intercept or other delays created. The aircraft will be closely examined by authorities.

For example - aircraft which stray into the area over Washington DC usually result in the pilot having his ability to hold a pilot license examined by the FAA. It might involve some civil penalties - fines, but not massive.

That is actually a much more sensitive area today than the Restricted areas in California and Nevada.

If it is an honest mistake, the pilot will probably be required to take some additional instruction in navigation, possibly have his license suspended for a while.

If it is a deliberate attempt to fly over one of the restricted areas in Nevada - the pilot will likely lose his license.

One of the interesting things about the Area 51 legends and the conspiracy idiots is that they could almost never find a pilot willing to try to bust the Restricted Area.

Which is pretty stupid to take that risk, given the quality of aerial images publically available from Google, Bing and others of the Area 51 airstrip, and the rest of the area. There is also good imagery of Yucca Flats (the most restricted airport in the area), Tonopah Test Range, Payutte Mesa and Desert Rock airstrips.

You can get as good of imagery from public sources as you could from an overflight.

You can see two (GE) or three (Bing) Janet aircraft on the ramp at 'Groom Lake' and one (GE) or two (Bing) USAF C-12/B1900 aircraft on the Nellis shuttle route.

BTW - in case anyone is not familiar with the area - Groom Lake is right next to the area where the US tested nuclear weapons. An area which is still extremely classified and restricted.


User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15692 posts, RR: 26
Reply 57, posted (1 year 4 months 2 weeks 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 3277 times:

Quoting rfields5421 (Reply 56):
Which is pretty stupid to take that risk, given the quality of aerial images publically available from Google, Bing and others of the Area 51 airstrip, and the rest of the area. There is also good imagery of Yucca Flats (the most restricted airport in the area), Tonopah Test Range, Payutte Mesa and Desert Rock airstrips.

Of course, with few rumored exceptions, finding satellites and knowing when they will be overhead is not that challenging. The workers just put away whatever it is they're working on, and occasionally put out something they aren't working on, whenever a satellite will be passing nearby.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlinepnwtraveler From Canada, joined Jun 2007, 2224 posts, RR: 12
Reply 58, posted (1 year 4 months 2 weeks 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 3220 times:

I would think everything is indoors and under quite a few feet of lead and concrete roofs that are impervious to radar, heat signatures and even magnetic analysis. Many of the flights of these experimental flights happen at night making visual sighting difficult. And given that surrounding high points are surrounded with sensors and have gradually been included into the restricted area visual sighting would be difficult.

User currently offlineSAAFNAV From South Africa, joined Mar 2010, 259 posts, RR: 0
Reply 59, posted (1 year 4 months 2 weeks 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 3025 times:

Quoting rfields5421 (Reply 56):

Which is pretty stupid to take that risk, given the quality of aerial images publically available from Google, Bing and others of the Area 51 airstrip, and the rest of the area. There is also good imagery of Yucca Flats (the most restricted airport in the area), Tonopah Test Range, Payutte Mesa and Desert Rock airstrips.


Sir, you must be the first person I've ever heard to use Bing!

Have my like!  

Erich



On-board Direction Consultant
User currently offlineF9animal From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 4971 posts, RR: 28
Reply 60, posted (1 year 4 months 2 weeks 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 2976 times:

As a kid, my friend and I drove around that area often. A kid that was 16, and curious about these planes. We attempted to go in to the parking are, and we were greeted by an armed guard. The M16 strapped over his shoulder made us decide that we were not getting in. We ended up turning around and not trying that again.

Trying to drive near the Tonopah test site was not a fun experience. As we got close, signs warned us to turn around. We did, especially after my buddy and I got very ill. I literally puked my brains out. We turned around, and drove awag. We both started feeling better a short time later. I have no answers as to what made us feel ill, but many have said it was likely a gas or something. Whatever it was , I am never trying it again. We just had that feeling as we drove closer that we were being watched.



I Am A Different Animal!!
User currently offlinepiedmont727 From United States of America, joined Dec 2012, 108 posts, RR: 0
Reply 61, posted (1 year 4 months 2 weeks 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 2594 times:

Quoting duckredbeard (Reply 19):

im not supprised im shure they dont want anyone getting ahold of them and knowing what the pilots see (when they talk to each other) and codes or airspace entry codes they use etc...


User currently onlinebobloblaw From United States of America, joined Jan 2012, 1581 posts, RR: 1
Reply 62, posted (1 year 4 months 2 weeks 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 2582 times:
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Quoting luv2fly (Reply 17):
How long are the actual flights? I would imagine the crews really just on board for safety and not any service to speak of.

Ive read they have coffee

Quoting aklrno (Reply 33):
When you are in cruise for only about 20 minutes it is possible that the additional weight of winglets does not offset the cost of the winglets and the cruise fuel saving.

A 20 min flight doesn't need winglets. People forget winglets add weight to the plane.


User currently offlinemayor From United States of America, joined Mar 2008, 10329 posts, RR: 14
Reply 63, posted (1 year 4 months 2 weeks 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 2537 times:

Quoting rfields5421 (Reply 49):
Quoting JAGflyer (Reply 48):
When was Groom Lake actually a lake? How long ago did it dry up?

There might have been some water on the 'lake' in 2005. Several of the dry lakes in the Death Valley and southern Nevada region got enough rain for water on the lakes that year, which dried up again quickly.

Edwards AFB is another similar dry lake converted to military usage.

However, the basic dry lake phenomena in that region is much older than human history. Part of the entire southwest US, northern Mexico desert region which extends across much of the states of California, Nevada, Utah, Arizona, Colorado, New Mexico and Texas.

When I was in the Air Force in the late 60s and early 70s, stationed at Travis AFB, we used a dry lake bed, Silurian dry lake, north of Baker, CA, for our winter air drops (too wet and rainy up by Sacramento).



"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen
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