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Bombardier In Talks To Build Q400 In Russia  
User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 24902 posts, RR: 46
Posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 6916 times:

Bombardier is in talks with Russia’s state corporation Rostech over a joint venture to build the Q400 in Ulyanovsk.

Assembling in Russia would allow local carriers to avoid paying high import duties. Its estimated a market of 400 regional aircraft exist in the country through 2020.

Story:
http://atwonline.com/aircraft-engine...er-jv-talks-build-q400-russia-0221

=


From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
41 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinecobra27 From Slovenia, joined May 2001, 1009 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 6390 times:

Yes I read it aviatonweek a month ago, but Canadians weren't to optimistic. They wabt to keep it Canadian. It was like a 100 million dollar venture. Canadians are trying to cooperate with Chinese also.

But how is Q400 doing lately, I didn't heard of to many orders?


User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 24902 posts, RR: 46
Reply 2, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 2 days ago) and read 6056 times:

Q400 sales are quite slow compared to competitor ATR which has been setting sales records.

According to a website I show only 38 outstanding Q400 orders, while ATR has something like 210 pending deliveries.

Maybe Russian (or China) production would not only benefit local sales, but maybe allow BBD to produce a product at lower cost and make Q400 more competitive.



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offliner2rho From Germany, joined Feb 2007, 2589 posts, RR: 1
Reply 3, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 5635 times:

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 2):
Maybe Russian (or China) production would not only benefit local sales, but maybe allow BBD to produce a product at lower cost and make Q400 more competitive.

Indeed. I don't know what the reason for the Q400's high price tag is, but selling it at regional-jet prices surely doesn't help its sales...

If a production line in Russia guarantees some big orders from that country + surrounding countries, I say go for it. Either that or produce significantly cheaper in Canada. The Q400's backlog is thin enough already, any means of guaranteeing production should be looked at.


User currently offlineytz From Canada, joined Jun 2009, 1985 posts, RR: 24
Reply 4, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 5455 times:

Sucks for Downsview.

User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 24902 posts, RR: 46
Reply 5, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 5365 times:

Quoting ytz (Reply 4):
Sucks for Downsview.

Be even worse to completely shut the line down.

Seems BBD has an aircraft that few are willing to pay for.

So if moving production overseas aids with the prospects for the model, it seems to be the responsible thing to do.



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently onlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15719 posts, RR: 26
Reply 6, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 5327 times:

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 5):
Seems BBD has an aircraft that few are willing to pay for.

That might be right. I think the Q400 combines some of the worst characteristics of jets and turboprops. As the ATR has demonstrated, there's nothing wrong with an efficient, well built turboprop.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 24917 posts, RR: 22
Reply 7, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 5266 times:

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 2):
According to a website I show only 38 outstanding Q400 orders, while ATR has something like 210 pending deliveries.

The Q400 and ATR serve 2 quite different markets. The Q400 engines for example are almost twice as powerful as those on the ATR-72.


User currently offlineYYZatcboy From Canada, joined Apr 2005, 1070 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 1 day ago) and read 5232 times:
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Quoting BMI727 (Reply 6):
That might be right. I think the Q400 combines some of the worst characteristics of jets and turboprops.

Really? I have the complete opposite impression. It takes the best part of props (Fuel efficiency) and the best part of jets (Fast and Quiet). I find them quieter than all but perhaps some jets (usually rear engined ones and forward seats on others). Then again the noise on the Q is a totally different kind of noise than a jet, Much more wind.



DHC1/3/4 MD11/88 L1011 A319/20/21/30 B727 735/6/7/8/9 762/3 E175/90 CRJ/700/705 CC150. J/S DH8D 736/7/8
User currently offlinePanAm788 From United States of America, joined Sep 2008, 291 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 23 hours ago) and read 5151 times:

Looks like a good deal for BBD. They'll be able to lower production costs and make the Q very attractive to Russian airlines who can reap massive savings from buying domestic airplanes. Only loser would be Downsview, but they're revving up for CSeries production anyway. Seems like a great to save an otherwise dying program. Just my 2 cents.


heroes get remembered but legends never die
User currently offlineZKCIF From Lithuania, joined Oct 2010, 290 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 23 hours ago) and read 5140 times:

Quoting YYZatcboy (Reply 8):
Really? I have the complete opposite impression. It takes the best part of props (Fuel efficiency) and the best part of jets (Fast and Quiet).

we have discussed it many times here. the problem is, q40 is not THAT efficient in comparison with jets.
in order to feel the difference in terms of speed between atr42/72 and q40, it takes to fly at least 700nm, i.e. roughly 1h30 block time for q40 and 2h00 for atr. anything shorter, and it won't feel as much as the fuel bill will.
many turboprop routes deal with islands or other geographically extremely isolated areas - deserts, mountains, etc. where land transportation is prohibitively slow.
the first example that gets into my head is the canaries. what do you see in TFN? lots of atrs. sure, most flights are under 300nm, so why pay more?
another example, malaysia, maswings. what do you see at MYY or SDK? yes, atrs. distances? in many cases about 200nm. why pay more?
even air tahiti flies atrs despite some huge distances, such as PPT - nuku hiva.
in australia, qantas flies all kinds of dash (ironically, in many cases, over very short distances, e.g. i flew ADL-PLO, 133nm; MEL-MQL, 246nm, MEL-DPO, 222nm). virgin-skywest come to compete with atrs. it is extremely interesting for me what will come out of this one.

for me, ideal conditions for q40 are such countries which combine quite large distances and population centers of low-to-average size.
i would say q40 should thrive in the usa (away from the major population centers). unfortunately, public perception is the issue.
or, peru, say, lima-ayacucho (essentially, lima-anywhere further where lan's 319 would be an overkill. that could open lots of new markets, btw.) as well as a number of other countries in south america.

from my seat of view, opening a line in russia is a great idea - huge distances with prohibitively slow or essentially nonexistent ground transportation: check, population centers able to fill 2 or more dashes per day: check; the flying public seemingly has nothing against turboprops: check, they could even register those planes as ra-xxxxx instead of vp/vq-bxx.

as the market voted very badly against q40 in recent years, i would say - go for it guys, that's a great chance of rescuing the career of this nice plane.
best of luck.


User currently offlineYYZatcboy From Canada, joined Apr 2005, 1070 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 23 hours ago) and read 5113 times:
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Quoting ZKCIF (Reply 10):
for me, ideal conditions for q40 are such countries which combine quite large distances and population centers of low-to-average size.

Which is exactly where I get my impression from. (Canada)  

Yes on the shorter legs of a few hundred miles the ATR is no doubt better than The Q. (I have never flown on the ATR so I can't speak to it's comfort). I would much rather ride on a Q than any CRJ or Embraer aircraft of similar size (70-90 seats). In Canada we have much longer thin regional routes that used to have the CRJ/CRA on them that are now moving on to the Q. These routes are perfect for the Q. Even YUL/YOW/YQB-YYZ/YTZ are excellent for the aircraft in terms of performance with the other jet traffic. Sure it might burn more fuel than an ATR but when you are competing with an ERJ or 737/A32x the difference is substantial. (And also likely why WS went with the Q vs the ATR)



DHC1/3/4 MD11/88 L1011 A319/20/21/30 B727 735/6/7/8/9 762/3 E175/90 CRJ/700/705 CC150. J/S DH8D 736/7/8
User currently offlineZKCIF From Lithuania, joined Oct 2010, 290 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 22 hours ago) and read 5063 times:

Quoting YYZatcboy (Reply 11):
Yes on the shorter legs of a few hundred miles the ATR is no doubt better than The Q. (I have never flown on the ATR so I can't speak to it's comfort). I would much rather ride on a Q than any CRJ or Embraer aircraft of similar size (70-90 seats). In Canada we have much longer thin regional routes that used to have the CRJ/CRA on them that are now moving on to the Q. These routes are perfect for the Q. Even YUL/YOW/YQB-YYZ/YTZ are excellent for the aircraft in terms of performance with the other jet traffic. Sure it might burn more fuel than an ATR but when you are competing with an ERJ or 737/A32x the difference is substantial. (And also likely why WS went with the Q vs the ATR)

i am extremely happy that these routes are being taken over by the Q.
by the way, as far as i understand, performance with one engine out over the Rockies was also considered as extremely important.
inside, atrs are definitely non as nice as Qs. for me, they feel quite cramped, and all the airlines i flew them (islas, air new zealand, air caledonie, flydae, eurolot, etc.) stuffed them with essentially as many seats as they could cram in. on eurolot, the flight was half-empty, and i had an empty seat next to me. no worries. on NZ, the planes were full, and on ZQN-CHC was the only time in my life that i wanted the flight to be over sooner than later (i adore props, i feel great on them and would take atr or the Q over boeing any day). while on dashes, i never had that feeling. in short, comfort is not the first advantage of atrs, definitely, but they seem very nice money makers for their operators.
some day you will board first air atr42 and see for yourself.
cheers.


User currently offlinesunrisevalley From Canada, joined Jul 2004, 4888 posts, RR: 5
Reply 13, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 20 hours ago) and read 4958 times:

Quoting PanAm788 (Reply 9):
Only loser would be Downsview, but they're revving up for CSeries production anyway.

according to Wikipedia........

The fuselage was to be built by China Aviation Industry Corp. I (AVIC I)'s affiliate Shenyang Aircraft Corporation.[5] Final assembly of the aircraft was to be at Mirabel Airport, Mirabel, outside Montreal, Quebec.[7] Substantial portions of the aircraft were to be constructed at Bombardier facilities in Belfast, Northern Ireland.[8]

If this is so there will be no joy in Downsview from the C-Series. A real danger of another high labour cost Ontario business biting the dust.


User currently offlinelightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 12910 posts, RR: 100
Reply 14, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 18 hours ago) and read 4832 times:
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Quoting LAXintl (Reply 5):
o if moving production overseas aids with the prospects for the model, it seems to be the responsible thing to do.

Concur. Unless the Q400 sees an unlikely large order in the near future, if there are to be Russian sales from an assembly move, it should be done.

Quoting YYZatcboy (Reply 11):
Which is exactly where I get my impression from. (Canada)

Which is probably why the Russians show interest... but not at the Canadian assembled price. Sad... but a cruel fact and better than shutting down the line.

LIghtsaber



Societies that achieve a critical mass of ideas achieve self sustaining growth; others stagnate.
User currently offlineMCOflyer From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 8664 posts, RR: 15
Reply 15, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 17 hours ago) and read 4786 times:

I wish they would restart proudction of the Q200 and Q300. A lot airlines who have older 100/300 airframes will need replacement a/c. What better option than a new a/c.

KH



Never be afraid to stand up for who you are.
User currently offlineAirbusA6 From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2005, 2011 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 10 hours ago) and read 4614 times:

Is there any way of despeccing the Q400 to create a slower, more economical plane with less powerful engines, as the ATR72 is selling like hot cakes, showing that the majority of customers don't need the extra speed?


it's the bus to stansted (now renamed national express a4 to ruin my username)
User currently offlineYYZatcboy From Canada, joined Apr 2005, 1070 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 7 hours ago) and read 4502 times:
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Quoting AirbusA6 (Reply 16):

Is there any way of despeccing the Q400 to create a slower, more economical plane with less powerful engines, as the ATR72 is selling like hot cakes, showing that the majority of customers don't need the extra speed?

No need to change engines, if flown at the same speed as the ATR, the Q is just as fuel efficient. (According to the Bombardier marketing folks anyway)



DHC1/3/4 MD11/88 L1011 A319/20/21/30 B727 735/6/7/8/9 762/3 E175/90 CRJ/700/705 CC150. J/S DH8D 736/7/8
User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 24917 posts, RR: 22
Reply 18, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 6 hours ago) and read 4450 times:

Quoting MCOflyer (Reply 15):
I wish they would restart proudction of the Q200 and Q300. A lot airlines who have older 100/300 airframes will need replacement a/c. What better option than a new a/c.

Most of the demand is now for larger aircraft. Look at ATR orders as a good indication of that. Almost all recent orders are for the ATR-72. Very few for the ATR-42. That trend is visible everywhere. As airport and ATC congestion gets worse and as passengers increasingly only care about low fares, interest in the smaller variants of all types is dropping significantly. Look at A320/321 orders compared to A318/319, the 738/739 compared to the 73G (and the 736 is history). Same applies for the 77W vs 77L/77E, and the A333 vs. A332. And the 50-seat and smaller regional jets are now out of production, with current interest in models with 70 seats and up.


User currently offlineDash9 From Canada, joined Nov 2008, 196 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 5 hours ago) and read 4352 times:

Quoting sunrisevalley (Reply 13):
If this is so there will be no joy in Downsview from the C-Series. A real danger of another high labour cost Ontario business biting the dust.

Don't worry for DeHavilland Canada, I mean BBD Downsview  . This is where final assembly of the Global takes place. These are selling like hot cakes with 4+ years of waiting between order and delivery. Two new bigger / longer-range models also being developed. BBD might very well dominate this market segment for years.

-Dash9


User currently offlineAirbusA6 From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2005, 2011 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (1 year 5 months 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 4073 times:

Quoting YYZatcboy (Reply 17):
Quoting AirbusA6 (Reply 16):

Is there any way of despeccing the Q400 to create a slower, more economical plane with less powerful engines, as the ATR72 is selling like hot cakes, showing that the majority of customers don't need the extra speed?

No need to change engines, if flown at the same speed as the ATR, the Q is just as fuel efficient. (According to the Bombardier marketing folks anyway)

But the Q400 is more expensive, due to its higher speed capabilities...



it's the bus to stansted (now renamed national express a4 to ruin my username)
User currently offlinespeedygonzales From Norway, joined Sep 2007, 723 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (1 year 5 months 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 3973 times:

Quoting MCOflyer (Reply 15):
I wish they would restart proudction of the Q200 and Q300. A lot airlines who have older 100/300 airframes will need replacement a/c. What better option than a new a/c.

KH

I saw a report in a Norwegian newspaper a while ago about Widerøe working together with some other regional airlines to lobby the manufacturers to restart production of 30-40 seat turboprops.



Las Malvinas son Argentinas
User currently offlineplanemaker From Tuvalu, joined Aug 2003, 6126 posts, RR: 34
Reply 22, posted (1 year 5 months 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 3856 times:

Quoting MCOflyer (Reply 15):
I wish they would restart proudction of the Q200 and Q300. A lot airlines who have older 100/300 airframes will need replacement a/c.

The production line (and much of the tooling) no longer exists.

Quoting Dash9 (Reply 19):
Don't worry for DeHavilland Canada, I mean BBD Downsview . This is where final assembly of the Global takes place.

Yes, but the line can be moved "relatively" easily to Dorval, for example, just as they moved the Challenger 300 to Dorval from Wichita



Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind. - A. Einstein
User currently offlinequeb From Canada, joined May 2010, 655 posts, RR: 3
Reply 23, posted (1 year 5 months 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 3815 times:

Quoting planemaker (Reply 22):
Yes, but the line can be moved "relatively" easily to Dorval, for example, just as they moved the Challenger 300 to Dorval from Wichita

Don't worry, no space and no manpower to do that in Montreal. Only 20 Challenger 300 were assembled in Wichita before they moved the line to Dorval. More than 70 Global aircraft will be delivered this year, not so easy to move.

[Edited 2013-02-26 10:18:09]

User currently offlineplanemaker From Tuvalu, joined Aug 2003, 6126 posts, RR: 34
Reply 24, posted (1 year 5 months 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 3774 times:

Quoting queb (Reply 23):
no space and no manpower to do that in Montreal.
Quoting queb (Reply 23):
More than 70 Global aircraft will be delivered this year

There is lot's of space... and manpower. The CRJ200 production at Dorval used to be over 100 frames a year.

Quoting queb (Reply 23):
not so easy to move.

It obviously isn't an overnight move but it is "relatively" easy to move if BBD wanted to. All the assembly tooling and jigs are "only" bolted down (this was designed on purpose to have the option of moving production).



Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind. - A. Einstein
User currently offlinequeb From Canada, joined May 2010, 655 posts, RR: 3
Reply 25, posted (1 year 5 months 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 3808 times:

Quoting planemaker (Reply 24):
There is lot's of space... and manpower. The CRJ200 production at Dorval used to be over 100 frames a year.

crj200 production zone has been modified to make Challenger 300/605 interior completion. CRJ200 VIP version, called Challenger 850, is now assembled in the Challenger 605 FAL.

[Edited 2013-02-26 11:57:00]

User currently offlineplanemaker From Tuvalu, joined Aug 2003, 6126 posts, RR: 34
Reply 26, posted (1 year 5 months 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 3784 times:

Quoting queb (Reply 25):
crj200 production zone has been modified to make Challenger 300/605 interior completion.

Just a fraction of it... as I mentioned, over 100 CRJ200's were being built at Dorval. And since GX interior completion is done at Dorval it would also be easier than ferrying the a/c from Downsview. Although it is currently a moot point it is eminently feasible.



Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind. - A. Einstein
User currently offlinequeb From Canada, joined May 2010, 655 posts, RR: 3
Reply 27, posted (1 year 5 months 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 3807 times:

Quoting planemaker (Reply 26):
Just a fraction of it...

No, there's no more space in plant 3, believe me, I know what I'm talking about  

There's a lot of free space in plant 1 (St-Laurent factory) but the runway has been replaced by condominiums more than twenty years ago


User currently offlineKELPkid From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 6346 posts, RR: 3
Reply 28, posted (1 year 5 months 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 3805 times:

Quoting cobra27 (Reply 1):
Yes I read it aviatonweek a month ago, but Canadians weren't to optimistic. They wabt to keep it Canadian. It was like a 100 million dollar venture. Canadians are trying to cooperate with Chinese also.

   How much of it really is "Canadian?" I know the fuselages for the Q400 are actually built in China...IIRC, Bombardier pulled a Boeing/Airbus off with the -400, just doing final assembly work in the home country.



Celebrating the birth of KELPkidJR on August 5, 2009 :-)
User currently offlineDash9 From Canada, joined Nov 2008, 196 posts, RR: 0
Reply 29, posted (1 year 5 months 6 days ago) and read 3740 times:

Quoting KELPkid (Reply 28):
Bombardier pulled a Boeing/Airbus off with the -400, just doing final assembly work in the home country.

Same goes for all airplanes from all manufacturers. Engines come from a country, avionics from another one, fuselage parts from elsewhere, etc. At the end of the day, it is where the thing is assembled, flight tested and certified that define its country of origin. In the Q400 case its obviously a Canadian aircraft.

I wonder if they are in talk to move the line, or duplicate it for local market like Airbus did with their A320 line in Tianjin. Moving the whole line with tooling and jigs mean Western clients (Air Canada, Westjet, Porter, United, etc.) would be buying a Russian airliner for future top-up.... not sure that would float.

-Dash9


User currently offlineapruzesse13 From Ukraine, joined Dec 2012, 33 posts, RR: 0
Reply 30, posted (1 year 5 months 6 days ago) and read 3733 times:

Given the razor-thin backlog (35 a/c today), it is likely the programme will be already shut down when the Russian line opens(sorry for our Russian colleagues)  

User currently offlinelightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 12910 posts, RR: 100
Reply 31, posted (1 year 5 months 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 3704 times:
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Quoting planemaker (Reply 24):
The CRJ200 production at Dorval used to be over 100 frames a year.

Now we're discussing the up-gauging and reduction in RJ flying due to consolidation. I started my career with RJs entering the fleet and half way through they're starting the road to beer can.   

Lightsaber



Societies that achieve a critical mass of ideas achieve self sustaining growth; others stagnate.
User currently offlineslider From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 6787 posts, RR: 34
Reply 32, posted (1 year 5 months 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 3685 times:

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 7):
The Q400 and ATR serve 2 quite different markets. The Q400 engines for example are almost twice as powerful as those on the ATR-72.

The Q is much faster and has a greater payload and range. The ATR would seem, at this juncture, to be more reliable in terms of global fleet dispatch reliability drivers. Bombardier's made their own bed with after-sales support problems and it's hampered them.

Quoting MCOflyer (Reply 15):
I wish they would restart proudction of the Q200 and Q300. A lot airlines who have older 100/300 airframes will need replacement a/c. What better option than a new a/c.

Good point. There really is no gauge out there today at that end of the spectrum once Saabs go away....VERY few options exist and none of new build aircraft, to my knowledge. It's going to be a major problem for the regional industry.


User currently offlinehoustondallas From Canada, joined Jul 2001, 92 posts, RR: 0
Reply 33, posted (1 year 5 months 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 3601 times:

I'm actually surprised they haven't shuttered the Downsview site given the real estate value of the land it's located on. There are probably 600 acres of fairly valuable land, likely valued in the billions to developers.

Wouldn't take much to move their final assembly operations to Russia, Mirabel, China, Mexico, etc

houston


User currently offliner2rho From Germany, joined Feb 2007, 2589 posts, RR: 1
Reply 34, posted (1 year 5 months 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 3245 times:

Quoting Dash9 (Reply 29):
I wonder if they are in talk to move the line, or duplicate it for local market like Airbus did with their A320 line in Tianjin. Moving the whole line with tooling and jigs mean Western clients (Air Canada, Westjet, Porter, United, etc.) would be buying a Russian airliner for future top-up.... not sure that would float.

Ideally, you could have the current FAL for Western customers and the Russian FAL for ex-USSR and Asia, just like Tianjin only produces for the Chinese market. Problem is, the current backlog is not large enough for two FAL's, not even one. On the other hand, could a Russian FAL unlock enough new orders (which would not happen with Canadian-assembled planes) to be viable? I'm sure a cheaper priced Q400 has potential in the Russian market, but enough to justify a FAL...? Tough question.


User currently offlinemjoelnir From Iceland, joined Feb 2013, 1375 posts, RR: 2
Reply 35, posted (1 year 5 months 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 3124 times:

Quoting r2rho (Reply 34):
Ideally, you could have the current FAL for Western customers and the Russian FAL for ex-USSR and Asia, just like Tianjin only produces for the Chinese market. Problem is, the current backlog is not large enough for two FAL's, not even one. On the other hand, could a Russian FAL unlock enough new orders (which would not happen with Canadian-assembled planes) to be viable? I'm sure a cheaper priced Q400 has potential in the Russian market, but enough to justify a FAL...? Tough question.

I think it is a bit of arrogance blowing through this thread, a Russian FAL only for Russian customers? Why?
Would air planes put together in Russia instantly drop from the sky coming to the West?

I think if they produce in Russia the whole FAL gets moved and the number of orders in Russia would outweigh the western orders.
I can not imagine a western airline deciding, if the price and performance is right and they want the Dash 8, not to buy because the FAL is in Russia.


User currently offlinelightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 12910 posts, RR: 100
Reply 36, posted (1 year 5 months 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 2979 times:
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Quoting mjoelnir (Reply 35):
I think if they produce in Russia the whole FAL gets moved and the number of orders in Russia would outweigh the western orders.

Concur. Besides, the parts would still come from current vendors who would happily ship their parts to where they need to go.

Quoting mjoelnir (Reply 35):
I can not imagine a western airline deciding, if the price and performance is right and they want the Dash 8, not to buy because the FAL is in Russia.

I can imagine they'll delay. All new FALs have more issues. Part of the problem will be the flight testing under customer review. For non-Russians the expense will go up.

Quoting r2rho (Reply 34):
the current backlog is not large enough for two FAL's, not even one. On the other hand, could a Russian FAL unlock enough new orders (which would not happen with Canadian-assembled planes) to be viable?

I only see a Russian FAL with enough orders. Otherwise I agree, there will be only one FAL. I personally do not understand why the A320 will have so many FALs. In the past, there were multiple FALs only because the aircraft production outpaced the city's workforce or politics. e.g., China assembling MD-90s or A320s.

Since those Chinese assembled MD-90s now can fly for DL, I see no reason a Russian Q-400 wouldn't sell. But customers will wait for the FAL to prove itself. e.g., Airbus wouldn't have sold, without a discount, Chinese built A320s at first if there wasn't a push by the Chinese government to shift the production.

Lightsaber



Societies that achieve a critical mass of ideas achieve self sustaining growth; others stagnate.
User currently offlinemjoelnir From Iceland, joined Feb 2013, 1375 posts, RR: 2
Reply 37, posted (1 year 5 months 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 2941 times:

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 36):
I personally do not understand why the A320 will have so many FALs. In the past, there were multiple FALs only because the aircraft production outpaced the city's workforce or politics. e.g., China assembling MD-90s or A320s.

When you are running multiple FAL parallel side by side anyway, you can start thinking about distributing them geographically.
Tianjin brought in extra orders from the Chinese.
Hamburg has increased production since the opening Tianjin and it is running at capacity, while running I think two lines side by side.
So when they decide to set up a new line why not go to the USA and start a home team there?


User currently offlineDash9 From Canada, joined Nov 2008, 196 posts, RR: 0
Reply 38, posted (1 year 5 months 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 2898 times:

Quoting mjoelnir (Reply 37):
So when they decide to set up a new line why not go to the USA and start a home team there?

Load-balancing your FAL geographically spread risks just as labor conflicts, government conflicts, extreme weather, etc. You have more chances oh having smaller problems... like not putting all your eggs in the same basket.

-Dash9


User currently offliner2rho From Germany, joined Feb 2007, 2589 posts, RR: 1
Reply 39, posted (1 year 5 months 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 2747 times:

Quoting mjoelnir (Reply 35):
a Russian FAL only for Russian customers? Why?
Would air planes put together in Russia instantly drop from the sky coming to the West?

I think if they produce in Russia the whole FAL gets moved and the number of orders in Russia would outweigh the western orders.
I can not imagine a western airline deciding, if the price and performance is right and they want the Dash 8, not to buy because the FAL is in Russia.

It's not "me" saying that the Russian FAL should be restricted to Russian (+ ex-USSR + why not Asian) customers, but rather that due to politics, workshare, Western prejudice, etc etc, that would be the trade-off to get it approved.

Just like Airbus restricting Tianjin to China (although IMO it's a matter of time before it delivers to other Asian customers as well). The Tianjin FAL will likely pay off due to the additional orders it has generated. Can BBD pull of a similar move with a Russian FAL? What is the minimum number of a/c orders needed to make a FAL worthwhile? I don't know...   

And yes, I agree a Russian FAL could potentially be more successful in the long term than the current (drying up) Canadian one.

Quoting mjoelnir (Reply 37):
Hamburg has increased production since the opening Tianjin and it is running at capacity, while running I think two lines side by side.

XFW actually has three A320 FAL's running, and yes, they are pretty much at capacity. TLS I think still has some slack in its FAL but is capped for workshare reasons.


User currently offlinemjoelnir From Iceland, joined Feb 2013, 1375 posts, RR: 2
Reply 40, posted (1 year 5 months 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 2694 times:

Quoting r2rho (Reply 39):
Just like Airbus restricting Tianjin to China (although IMO it's a matter of time before it delivers to other Asian customers as well). The Tianjin FAL will likely pay off due to the additional orders it has generated. Can BBD pull of a similar move with a Russian FAL? What is the minimum number of a/c orders needed to make a FAL worthwhile? I don't know...

Tianjin has not the capacity for just the Chinese market. So the question would not come up about selling those frames outside og China.

Quoting r2rho (Reply 39):
XFW actually has three A320 FAL's running, and yes, they are pretty much at capacity. TLS I think still has some slack in its FAL but is capped for workshare reasons.

TLS was at capacity when some of the A320 production moved to Hamburg as Hamburg was set up for the A318/319/321 only because of the workshare reasons.
Mobil is set up because every other A320 FAL is at capacity.


User currently offlineplanemaker From Tuvalu, joined Aug 2003, 6126 posts, RR: 34
Reply 41, posted (1 year 5 months 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 2610 times:

Quoting r2rho (Reply 39):
(although IMO it's a matter of time before it delivers to other Asian customers as well)
Quoting mjoelnir (Reply 40):
Tianjin has not the capacity for just the Chinese market. So the question would not come up about selling those frames outside og China.

Published this past June in Air Transport World...

Quote:
“We [have] already delivered 89 aircraft since our first one on June 23, 2009,” Airbus president-China Laurence Barron told journalists in Beijing this week. This year, 38 aircraft will be delivered—including the first one to a non-Chinese airline, AirAsia.



Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind. - A. Einstein
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