Now, we all know that YUL is an extremely well connected city on an international level, but this is mostly concentrated on Europe, Africa, North and Central americas and the Caribbean. YUL only has one flight to Asia (western Asia), and that is QR to DOH.
Now this article basically states that the lack of non-stop flights from YUL to the top 10 techno cities in the world has a negative economical impact of 300M $ on the city. These numbers are based on a study conducted by the airports of PDX and SAN, which claim that a non stop flight generates 20 to 50 M $ in economical benefits to a city.
Now granted, some of these cities will never see a non-stop from YUL, because it simply doesn't make economical sense, but nevertheless.....
top 10 cities listed are:
SFO (only summer seasonal non stop service by AC)
MUC (daily non stop in summer, 5 weekly in winter by LH)
As a comparison, YYZ has non stop flights to 7 of these cities, vs YUL which only has 1 (not counting SFO since it's seasonal only)
Bearing this in mind, I would just like to know your thoughts about this and if you think this study holds any water?
Of note, at the end of the article, Mr. Rovinescu, AC's president & CEO, says he's optimistic about a non stop from YUL to PEK and BEY.
us Air Traffic Controllers have a good record, we haven't left one up there yet !!
jetblueguy22 From United States of America, joined Nov 2007, 3136 posts, RR: 3
Reply 3, posted (3 years 3 months 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 17881 times:
I understand the frustration many politicians must have not having worldwide connections in their cities, but if it made economical sense wouldn't the airlines start service? Airlines these days seem to be look for any hole in networks they can take advantage of. I would think that if they could find one at YUL they would take advantage of it. Maybe I'm wrong and just nobody has thought of YUL. But to me it seems it would be a larger airport if it could be sustained..
All of the opinions stated above are mine and do not represent Airliners.net or my employer unless otherwise stated.
longhauler From Canada, joined Mar 2004, 6058 posts, RR: 43
Reply 4, posted (3 years 3 months 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 17796 times:
Quoting jetblueguy22 (Reply 3): I understand the frustration many politicians must have not having worldwide connections in their cities, but if it made economical sense wouldn't the airlines start service?
Airlines have access to numbers which will indicate whether a route will work or not. Lets, face it, if a year round daily YUL-SFO flight were feasible, it would be in the airline's interest to do just that, as it would be more efficient.
Like when the "race card" is played without merit, often politicians in Quebec play the "anti-French card" without merit hoping for some gain. In this case, and reading the French article, i really cant see any justifications in the argument. Every city would love a non-stop flight to everywhere.
Just because I stopped arguing, doesn't mean I think you are right. It just means I gave up!
YYZatcboy From Canada, joined Apr 2005, 1202 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (3 years 3 months 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 17709 times:
Actually I could very well see this as being true... In a limited sort of way.
YUL has a very large video game development and testing /IT industry, with the likes of UBISOFT calling the city home. It could very well be that lack of non stop flights is costing (that particular industry) a significant amount of money. However that one industry alone probably would not generate enough traffic to justify NS flights. And really, YYZ is an hour away at the worst of times, so even factoring in 3 hours more to go to NRT for example (Including waiting at YUL and YYZ), it does not make the travel time that much longer all things considered.
2travel2know2 From Panama, joined Apr 2010, 3038 posts, RR: 2
Reply 7, posted (3 years 3 months 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 17620 times:
A major issue regarding why YUL doesn't get international flights other than YYZ may be more attractive for many airlines is that after those airlines get to fly to YYZ, most of the times the airlines can't add more frequencies to Canada.
I bet there is the demand and CM would love to (increase YYZ to daily and) open YUL out of PTY, but CM PTY-YUL could only operate as charter according to the current bilateral.
Quoting thenoflyzone (Thread starter): Now, we all know that YUL is an extremely well connected city on an international level, but this is mostly concentrated on Europe, Africa, North and Central americas and the Caribbean.
Well connected to Central America? If weekly charters and some AC leisure flights would mean that.
ChrisNH From United States of America, joined Jun 1999, 4422 posts, RR: 2
Reply 8, posted (3 years 3 months 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 17602 times:
I thought the A319 was supposed to be the plane for some of those 'long-and-thin' routes within North America like Seattle and San Francisco. Once AC starts getting their 787s it will be interesting to see how much 'love' they really have for YUL.
ytz From Canada, joined Jun 2009, 3439 posts, RR: 34
Reply 9, posted (3 years 3 months 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 17606 times:
What does Montreal have to offer economically these days that would draw strong ties to those cities? Further beyond that, Montreal doesn't have large immigrant communities that would tie to those parts of the world. And given Quebec's immigration policies, this is highly unlikely to change any time soon.
Frankly, I'm surprised that Montreal has as many international connections as it does. From the list provided above, I could only see expansion to SFO and MUC. I can't ever see Montreal supporting service to East or Southeast Asia.
Let's be honest. Montreal's heydays are over. I remember moving to Canada in 1991 and Montreal was far more significant. There was no concept of the GTA really (or at least not as understood today). And most of Mississauga was still cornfields. The separatist movement sucked a lot more out of Quebec than most Quebecers realize. Recall that most of the big banks had their HQs in Montreal till the late 70s. Large companies like Pratt and Whitney never had facilities in the GTA till the separatist movement got going. And yet, Quebecers are back to flirting with them again.
Today, I don't see what benefit there is to doing business in Montreal. Toronto is better connected. You don't have to worry about language issues. You don't have to worry about geopolitical uncertainties. You can get a diverse workforce which lets you do business in Asia, and you don't have to worry about strange language laws impacting your diverse staff. Taxes are low for your business and your employees, public infrastructure is better and the financial nexus of the country is down the street.
Montreal is a great focal point for Quebec's businesses. For international commerce? Not even close.
(Not to say Toronto is panacea....it's a terrible big city....but comparing Toronto to Montreal....)
Isn't this part of the problem? I don't claim to be an expert on Canadian politics, but wouldn't Montreal and Quebec as a whole have much better business prospects if they didn't insist on being militantly francophone and borderline separatist? In some ways it seems as though they ostracize themselves from the rest of the continent.
Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
Quoting gemuser (Reply 11): Quoting ytz (Reply 9):
And given Quebec's immigration policies,
"Quebec's" immigration policies??? As opposed to Canada's immigration policies? They are different? Or are there immigration checks at provincial boarders???
Yes, Quebec has long had some flexibility in establishing its own immigration policies under an agreement with the federal government. A few months ago I recall a Quebec government mission conducting information sessions in GVA to encourage immigrants to Quebec from the French-speaking part of Switzerland.
Revelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 15718 posts, RR: 28
Reply 15, posted (3 years 3 months 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 17242 times:
Quoting jetblueguy22 (Reply 3): Airlines these days seem to be look for any hole in networks they can take advantage of.
I agree, but one impact of consolidation is that there isn't the imperative to bypass competitors and increasing fuel prices means there isn't the same ability. More and more people will see flights to hubs, which is a trend that will favor YYZ.
AMM is not a high tech city and probably brings next to no value to the city of Montreal. Question: how much of a tech city is Montreal? Montreal is once again being left behind thanks to its language laws. The quasi fascist laws of Quebec aren't conducive to attracting hi tech companies.
1991??? Montreal is probably more vibrant today that it was in the 1980s. The city was a dump then. Montreal's heydays were per 1977 and more precisely per 1970. GTA starting growing at Montreal's expenses in the late 1970s.
Montreal is still one of the world's major aerospace centers with Bombardier, Bell Textron (I believe all Bell civil helicopters are built at Mirabel), CAE (world's largest flight simulator manufacturer), Pratt & Whitney Canada including their new jet engine test facility at Mirabel where their 2 747SP engine testbeds are based. Mirabel is also the assembly site for the P&W geared turbofan engine model to be used on the Bombardier CSeries also being built at Mirabel along with the CRJ-700/900/1000.
Montreal is also the headquarters of ICAO, the UN agency that deals with civil air transportation. It's also one of the two major offices of IATA (along with GVA), the world's major airline trade association and the location of the largest number of IATA staff.
This is a list of technology companies in the city of Montreal, Quebec, Canada: (Source Wikipedia)
Artificial Mind and Movement
Logibec Groupe Informatique Ltd.
Tata Consultancy Services
yyz717 From Canada, joined Sep 2001, 16525 posts, RR: 54
Reply 19, posted (3 years 3 months 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 16982 times:
Quoting ytz (Reply 9): Let's be honest. Montreal's heydays are over.
So true. Relative to the ascendency of Toronto, Calgary and Vancouver as centres of commerce, Montreal is indeed in long term relative decline, due mainly to their language laws, high taxes and poor economy (all inter-related of course). Montreal was the pre-eminent business capital of Canada until the 60's, but has long since been ecllipsed by Toronto. Montreal will never regain the top spot, and indeed has fallen behind Calgary in terms of HQ domiciles to #3. Winnipeg is also in long term relative decline (once Canada's 3rd largest city, now 8th or 9th) but for different reasons and a different thread.
As someone said, there would be more flights to YUL if the demand was there, but it isn't.
There is actually a good economic argument for FEWER nonstop destinations from YUL. For AC to truly restructure and reduce costs, it should shutter the YUL mini-hub and route all west-bound flights thru YYZ. Few airlines would maintain 2 hubs just 300km apart -- the weaker hub weakens the whole network by duplicating costs. It makes much sense for YUL-SFO/LAX/SEA/NRT/PEK/YVR etc traffic to continue and indeed increasingly route strictly through YYZ. So perhaps YUL will have even fewer nonstop destinations at some point in the future if AC truly decides to restructure its decentralized network to reduce costs.
La Presse, a nominally Federalist paper, can lament all it wants about the lack of nonstop flights, but it should look at the causes, which are anti-English language laws and high taxes. And then there is the high corruption in Quebec society as highlighted by Macleans magazine.....
I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
Noise From United States of America, joined Dec 1999, 2120 posts, RR: 4
Reply 22, posted (3 years 3 months 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 16934 times:
This is so annoying.
Montreal doesn't have the head offices other cities like Toronto, Chicago, New York and Los Angeles have.
Montreal doesn't have the wealth that Toronto and Calgary and Vancouver have.
Montreal isn't as ideally located geographically as Toronto.
I can go on and on and on...
These are the reasons why Montreal doesn't have the non-stop flight it would like to have. Quebecers have been voting in separatist, franco-fascist governments that have been scared away businesses for decades. What else can you expect?
Quoting gemuser (Reply 11): "Quebec's" immigration policies??? As opposed to Canada's immigration policies? They are different? Or are there immigration checks at provincial boarders???
Yes, Quebec does have it's own immigration policies. A large chunk of them are based on whether you can speak french or not....whereas the rest of Canada focuses more on talent/skills of the individuals...Quebec places an added emphasis on whether you can speak French.
bobloblaw From United States of America, joined Jan 2012, 1725 posts, RR: 1
Reply 24, posted (3 years 3 months 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 16864 times:
Quoting yyz717 (Reply 19): For AC to truly restructure and reduce costs, it should shutter the YUL mini-hub and route all west-bound flights thru YYZ.
No. You mean to tell me there is no demand for nonstops from YUL-YYC/YVR?? If AC did that, they would lose all that traffic to WS, who would simply replace the lost nonstop capacity. To say that YUL population over 3m cant support AC nonstops to YVR pop 2m is not true. Do you think QF should cancel all BNE flights to ADL and PER???SAmre argument. If AC cancelled YUL-LAX, they would lose all that traffic to AA via ORD. Quebeckers would see AC moves and anti-French and boycott the "New AC" Canada is not the USA and cannot operate a hub spoke system like the USA does. There are ample opportunities for P2P flying within Canada.
: I'd be interested to know how this flight does because it's always $700+ for a r/t. Seems like it must get good yields, and it's timed well, but it's
: Really? Is this fact? Did you come up with this is your long-winded anti-Quebec tirade? 1.) Go through the FP500, over 100 of Canada's top companies
: Of course there is demand, but remember AC is profit challenged. Its not a market share game so if AC can make more $ routing thru YYZ, they should d
: Stockholm City Council published a report last fall on the same topic. Lack of nonstop longdistance flights reduces local economy to the equivalent of
: I dont think that AC would be viable as a two hub only airline with all routes either two or from YYZ and YVR. Overtime WS would render AC as a secon
: YYZ717 is not an airline expert .. there are however certain economies of scale by building up a critical mass in YYZ which AC is currently undertaki
: It's been My understanding over the years that Quebec discouraged USA airlines from flying into Montreal, and Quebec City. In 29 years at United I've
: This is factually incorrect. Montreal/Quebec City/Flin Flon Manitoba can be served easily under Canada/USA open skies treaty. Interesting United avoi
: Growing YYZ maybe a good a good idea, but shrinking AC down to only YYZ (maybe YVR), isnt Prior to openskies, I think that any new US airline to Mont
: To each his own. I've lived in 3 of the 4 cities you mention (YEG/YYC/YVR) but I much prefer visiting YUL where I've never lived but have visited doz
: Then OBVIOUSLY the return on investment wasn't there was it?? What I'm saying goes Way back to Air Wisconsin and Ransome airlines back in the late 70'
: its arguably not viable now with 3 hubs. Also, YUL is too close to YYZ. It is simply not sustainable on its own as a hub. You mean just like WS is no
: Pant size? Do you secretly work for Porter .. otherwise might be tough to compete with me
: YUL is not a true hub with banked flights. Most traffic on AC thru YUL is local. Plus from the maritimes to the eastern USA, YUL is better for connec
: Isnt it normally cheaper to connect through a hub than pay the fares of a direct flight? Anyone can get to all of the cities mentioned on the wishlist
: Totally agree. Why are they complaining? When I watch older movies and older music tours YUL is mentioned over YYZ. YUL was part of the circuit and i
: If the economic demand was there, I would expect city-pairs to be served. If the demand isn't there, then it makes sense that airlines would operate f
: Umm no. WS is doing well because it has not built up legacy costs, and because AC has failed at managing theirs down. AC has the highest costs of any
: As UK visitor to Montreal for the first time in the last few weeks, I was shocked that the city was so unfriendly to english speakers. I thought Canad
: What plane could make it to SIN non-stop , especially with SQ phasing out the A340-500's.
: I agree. I went to the GM assembly plant back in '98,and it was an eye-opening experience.
: Really unfortunate you had such a bad experience. The majority of people I speak who visit the city typically have positive experiences with customer
: This is completely baseless. Dorval has always had U.S. carriers and transborder flights.
: If YUL wants more connectivity, YUL should settle with the airlines who want to fly there now and not to be picky because IST, PTY, DXB and DOH aren'
: No it is not. Once the stupid policy of forcing any international flight to land in Montreal was cancelled, El Al moved all it's flights to Toronto,
: many Jewish Canadians left for Toronto, fearing that Quebec might leave the federation following the rise during the 1970s of nationalist political p
: Yes. You can't do business in Quebec unless you abide by the laws in Quebec as they see fit. Their language laws are restrictive and it is anti-Engli
: It is Canada’s fault. There is a list of airlines that want to fly there like Copa, Emirates, Turkish, etc. However the Canadian government isn’t
: Many years back when Quebec and in particular, Montreal, decided to revert to conducting business and tourism in French only a backlash occurred with
: You're starting to imagine things. Anti-Quebec tirade. I love Montreal. I lament what it's become. As for the aerospace growth I cited. You might wan
: There are the laws, and there's the way they are applied. Less than three hours ago it was mentioned in a short chronicle in Médium large (Radio-Can
: There's no doubt Montreal has many things weighing it down. Toronto has lost something like 40-50 headquarters in the last 10-15 years just by indust
: Quebec essentially selects its own immigrants under a 1977 agreement (Cullen-Couture) with the federal government. Immigration interviews for those a
: For what it's worth, I find that the language brown shirts tend to go after mom and pop stores more than large businesses. They would never have the c
: I had the opposite experience when I visited Montreal several years ago, may have changed now. In fact I was surprised that most people I met know En
: Don't take my posts as a defence of Toronto. Despite being a Torontonian by upbringing, I think the GTA is failing as a region. Government gridlock l
: Its not a criticism at all. I'm always inspired when I walk through Toronto (downtown especially). My issue how do we expect our economies to grow wh
: It depends on which part of the city you're in. West of Saint Lawrence Boulevard you have a bilingual/traditionally English population where most peo
: It's interesting to me that the only time I have ever been ridiculed for my French is in Montreal. I lived for months doing courses in Quebec City an
: I worked for a Montreal company for almost 10 years, was in the city almost once a month at times, and often spent the weekend there. I love Montreal.
: Agreed - the city has taken a different shape. Once one goes east of St-Denis street, it becomes fairly unfriendly and very gritty with huge "nationa
: YUL might not have every single non-stop that we want, but bottom line is that I would love to see US cities the size of YUL having just as much long-
: As a US citizen, I know I have a through the looking glass perspective, but I'll weigh in, since I was in Montreal for a week last year. I think for t
: Lawrence?..... It's St. Laurent.... And boulevard is mentioned first, not last...... (couldn't resist !) Thenoflyzone