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YUL: Lack Of Non Stop Flights Costing City 300M $  
User currently offlinethenoflyzone From Canada, joined Jan 2001, 2588 posts, RR: 11
Posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 16569 times:

Interesting article in the La Presse (french only) last friday.

http://affaires.lapresse.ca/economie...pacts-negatifs-de-300-millions.php

Now, we all know that YUL is an extremely well connected city on an international level, but this is mostly concentrated on Europe, Africa, North and Central americas and the Caribbean. YUL only has one flight to Asia (western Asia), and that is QR to DOH.

Now this article basically states that the lack of non-stop flights from YUL to the top 10 techno cities in the world has a negative economical impact of 300M $ on the city. These numbers are based on a study conducted by the airports of PDX and SAN, which claim that a non stop flight generates 20 to 50 M $ in economical benefits to a city.

Now granted, some of these cities will never see a non-stop from YUL, because it simply doesn't make economical sense, but nevertheless.....

top 10 cities listed are:

SFO (only summer seasonal non stop service by AC)
SEA
SIN
MUC (daily non stop in summer, 5 weekly in winter by LH)
HEL
TLV
BLR
NRT
HKG
ICN

As a comparison, YYZ has non stop flights to 7 of these cities, vs YUL which only has 1 (not counting SFO since it's seasonal only)

Bearing this in mind, I would just like to know your thoughts about this and if you think this study holds any water?

Of note, at the end of the article, Mr. Rovinescu, AC's president & CEO, says he's optimistic about a non stop from YUL to PEK and BEY.

Thenoflyzone


us Air Traffic Controllers have a good record, we haven't left one up there yet !!
150 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinethenoflyzone From Canada, joined Jan 2001, 2588 posts, RR: 11
Reply 1, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 16574 times:

Lets make it two destinations in western Asia. Forgot about RJ to AMM.

Thenoflyzone



us Air Traffic Controllers have a good record, we haven't left one up there yet !!
User currently offlinepoint2point From United States of America, joined Mar 2010, 2765 posts, RR: 1
Reply 2, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 16532 times:

Quoting thenoflyzone (Thread starter):
SFO (only summer seasonal non stop service by AC)
SEA

YUL - U.S. West Coast definitely lacking and doable with nonstops

Quoting thenoflyzone (Thread starter):
SIN

Nonstops currently not doable from NYC........ don't think they'll be doable from YUL

Quoting thenoflyzone (Thread starter):
MUC (daily non stop in summer, 5 weekly in winter by LH)
HEL

MUC - maybe more could be done here
HEL - is there enough traffic here?

Quoting thenoflyzone (Thread starter):
TLV


TVL probably doable.....

Quoting thenoflyzone (Thread starter):
BLR
NRT
HKG
ICN

NRT and ICN probably doable.....
HKG - too long and thin I would suppose
BLR - is there really enough traffic here?



 


User currently offlinejetblueguy22 From United States of America, joined Nov 2007, 2810 posts, RR: 4
Reply 3, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 16493 times:
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HEAD MODERATOR

I understand the frustration many politicians must have not having worldwide connections in their cities, but if it made economical sense wouldn't the airlines start service? Airlines these days seem to be look for any hole in networks they can take advantage of. I would think that if they could find one at YUL they would take advantage of it. Maybe I'm wrong and just nobody has thought of YUL. But to me it seems it would be a larger airport if it could be sustained..
Pat



All of the opinions stated above are mine and do not represent Airliners.net or my employer unless otherwise stated.
User currently offlinelonghauler From Canada, joined Mar 2004, 5061 posts, RR: 43
Reply 4, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 16408 times:

Quoting jetblueguy22 (Reply 3):
I understand the frustration many politicians must have not having worldwide connections in their cities, but if it made economical sense wouldn't the airlines start service?

Exactly.

Airlines have access to numbers which will indicate whether a route will work or not. Lets, face it, if a year round daily YUL-SFO flight were feasible, it would be in the airline's interest to do just that, as it would be more efficient.

Like when the "race card" is played without merit, often politicians in Quebec play the "anti-French card" without merit hoping for some gain. In this case, and reading the French article, i really cant see any justifications in the argument. Every city would love a non-stop flight to everywhere.



Never gonna grow up, never gonna slow down .... Barefoot Blue Jean Night
User currently offlineYYZatcboy From Canada, joined Apr 2005, 1089 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 16321 times:
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Actually I could very well see this as being true... In a limited sort of way.

YUL has a very large video game development and testing /IT industry, with the likes of UBISOFT calling the city home. It could very well be that lack of non stop flights is costing (that particular industry) a significant amount of money. However that one industry alone probably would not generate enough traffic to justify NS flights. And really, YYZ is an hour away at the worst of times, so even factoring in 3 hours more to go to NRT for example (Including waiting at YUL and YYZ), it does not make the travel time that much longer all things considered.

All IMO of course.



DHC1/3/4 MD11/88 L1011 A319/20/21/30 B727 735/6/7/8/9 762/3 E175/90 CRJ/700/705 CC150. J/S DH8D 736/7/8
User currently offlinecyeg66 From Canada, joined Feb 2011, 204 posts, RR: 1
Reply 6, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 16280 times:

Quoting thenoflyzone (Reply 1):
Lets make it two destinations in western Asia. Forgot about RJ to AMM.

Thenoflyzone


Lol, I was gonna remind you....

...until I read the second post.  



slow to 160, contact tower, slow to 160, contact tower, slow to....ZZZZZZZ......
User currently offline2travel2know2 From Panama, joined Apr 2010, 2665 posts, RR: 1
Reply 7, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 16232 times:

A major issue regarding why YUL doesn't get international flights other than YYZ may be more attractive for many airlines is that after those airlines get to fly to YYZ, most of the times the airlines can't add more frequencies to Canada.
I bet there is the demand and CM would love to (increase YYZ to daily and) open YUL out of PTY, but CM PTY-YUL could only operate as charter according to the current bilateral.

Quoting thenoflyzone (Thread starter):
Now, we all know that YUL is an extremely well connected city on an international level, but this is mostly concentrated on Europe, Africa, North and Central americas and the Caribbean.

Well connected to Central America? If weekly charters and some AC leisure flights would mean that.



I'm not on CM's payroll.
User currently offlineChrisNH From United States of America, joined Jun 1999, 4137 posts, RR: 2
Reply 8, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 16214 times:

I thought the A319 was supposed to be the plane for some of those 'long-and-thin' routes within North America like Seattle and San Francisco. Once AC starts getting their 787s it will be interesting to see how much 'love' they really have for YUL.

User currently offlineytz From Canada, joined Jun 2009, 2073 posts, RR: 24
Reply 9, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 16218 times:

What does Montreal have to offer economically these days that would draw strong ties to those cities? Further beyond that, Montreal doesn't have large immigrant communities that would tie to those parts of the world. And given Quebec's immigration policies, this is highly unlikely to change any time soon.

Frankly, I'm surprised that Montreal has as many international connections as it does. From the list provided above, I could only see expansion to SFO and MUC. I can't ever see Montreal supporting service to East or Southeast Asia.

Let's be honest. Montreal's heydays are over. I remember moving to Canada in 1991 and Montreal was far more significant. There was no concept of the GTA really (or at least not as understood today). And most of Mississauga was still cornfields. The separatist movement sucked a lot more out of Quebec than most Quebecers realize. Recall that most of the big banks had their HQs in Montreal till the late 70s. Large companies like Pratt and Whitney never had facilities in the GTA till the separatist movement got going. And yet, Quebecers are back to flirting with them again.

Today, I don't see what benefit there is to doing business in Montreal. Toronto is better connected. You don't have to worry about language issues. You don't have to worry about geopolitical uncertainties. You can get a diverse workforce which lets you do business in Asia, and you don't have to worry about strange language laws impacting your diverse staff. Taxes are low for your business and your employees, public infrastructure is better and the financial nexus of the country is down the street.

Montreal is a great focal point for Quebec's businesses. For international commerce? Not even close.

(Not to say Toronto is panacea....it's a terrible big city....but comparing Toronto to Montreal....)


User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 25844 posts, RR: 50
Reply 10, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 16139 times:

I think focusing on "top techno cities" is wrong.

They should look at overall largest markets, not simply a small sub sector of industry.

For example San Francisco O&D is mere 112 daily each way - not even a full A320. Explains why there is not year round service. Seattle is even less - 58 per day, hence no service whatsoever.

There certainly are larger and more broadly beneficial cities Montreal can be connected to then some of the ones on the list.



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlinegemuser From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 5719 posts, RR: 6
Reply 11, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 16103 times:

Quoting ytz (Reply 9):
And given Quebec's immigration policies,

"Quebec's" immigration policies??? As opposed to Canada's immigration policies? They are different? Or are there immigration checks at provincial boarders???

Gemuser



DC23468910;B72172273373G73873H74374475275376377L77W;A319 320321332333343;BAe146;C402;DHC6;F27;L188;MD80MD85
User currently offlinefinnishway From Finland, joined Jul 2012, 311 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 16088 times:

Quoting thenoflyzone (Thread starter):
HEL

There is hardly enough traffic to YYZ from Helsinki why would there be more to YUL?

[Edited 2013-02-24 12:38:58]

User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15795 posts, RR: 27
Reply 13, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 16066 times:

Quoting thenoflyzone (Thread starter):
(french only)

Isn't this part of the problem? I don't claim to be an expert on Canadian politics, but wouldn't Montreal and Quebec as a whole have much better business prospects if they didn't insist on being militantly francophone and borderline separatist? In some ways it seems as though they ostracize themselves from the rest of the continent.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 25700 posts, RR: 22
Reply 14, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 15999 times:

Quoting point2point (Reply 2):
HEL - is there enough traffic here?

Absolutely not.

Quoting gemuser (Reply 11):
Quoting ytz (Reply 9):
And given Quebec's immigration policies,

"Quebec's" immigration policies??? As opposed to Canada's immigration policies? They are different? Or are there immigration checks at provincial boarders???

Yes, Quebec has long had some flexibility in establishing its own immigration policies under an agreement with the federal government. A few months ago I recall a Quebec government mission conducting information sessions in GVA to encourage immigrants to Quebec from the French-speaking part of Switzerland.


User currently offlineRevelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 12766 posts, RR: 25
Reply 15, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 15854 times:

Quoting jetblueguy22 (Reply 3):
Airlines these days seem to be look for any hole in networks they can take advantage of.

I agree, but one impact of consolidation is that there isn't the imperative to bypass competitors and increasing fuel prices means there isn't the same ability. More and more people will see flights to hubs, which is a trend that will favor YYZ.



Inspiration, move me brightly!
User currently offlinebobloblaw From United States of America, joined Jan 2012, 1725 posts, RR: 1
Reply 16, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 15784 times:

Quoting thenoflyzone (Reply 1):

AMM is not a high tech city and probably brings next to no value to the city of Montreal. Question: how much of a tech city is Montreal? Montreal is once again being left behind thanks to its language laws. The quasi fascist laws of Quebec aren't conducive to attracting hi tech companies.

Quoting ytz (Reply 9):

1991??? Montreal is probably more vibrant today that it was in the 1980s. The city was a dump then. Montreal's heydays were per 1977 and more precisely per 1970. GTA starting growing at Montreal's expenses in the late 1970s.

Quoting gemuser (Reply 11):

Yes Quebec has their own immigration policies. No there are no border controls between Quebec and the rest of Canada. There in lies the loophole.


User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 25700 posts, RR: 22
Reply 17, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 15757 times:

Quoting bobloblaw (Reply 16):
Question: how much of a tech city is Montreal?

Montreal is still one of the world's major aerospace centers with Bombardier, Bell Textron (I believe all Bell civil helicopters are built at Mirabel), CAE (world's largest flight simulator manufacturer), Pratt & Whitney Canada including their new jet engine test facility at Mirabel where their 2 747SP engine testbeds are based. Mirabel is also the assembly site for the P&W geared turbofan engine model to be used on the Bombardier CSeries also being built at Mirabel along with the CRJ-700/900/1000.

Montreal is also the headquarters of ICAO, the UN agency that deals with civil air transportation. It's also one of the two major offices of IATA (along with GVA), the world's major airline trade association and the location of the largest number of IATA staff.


User currently offlineYYZatcboy From Canada, joined Apr 2005, 1089 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 15748 times:
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CUSTOMER SERVICE & SUPPORT

Quoting bobloblaw (Reply 16):
Question: how much of a tech city is Montreal?

This is a list of technology companies in the city of Montreal, Quebec, Canada: (Source Wikipedia)

Abilis Solutions
Adacel
Agendize
Alcatel-Lucent
Alstom
Artificial Mind and Movement
Avenue 65
Avid
Bell Canada
Bombardier Inc.
CAE
Captivision Media
CGI Group
Ciena
CMC Electronics
Collabora
Coradiant
Data-Tester
Datawind
EA Montreal
Eidos Montreal
Elanex
Ericsson
Exfo
Fujitsu Consulting
Funcom
Google
Gwava
HP
Idilia
iLiv
IBM
Ignition Telecom
Interfacing Technologies
Logibec Groupe Informatique Ltd.
ITMTL
Manwin Canada
Matrox
Messaging Architects
Microïds
Nuance Communications
Octasic
R3D Consulting
SAP AG
Strategy First
Tata Consultancy Services
Technologies Premium
Teleglobe
Ubisoft
VertigoXmedia
Videotron
XipLink



DHC1/3/4 MD11/88 L1011 A319/20/21/30 B727 735/6/7/8/9 762/3 E175/90 CRJ/700/705 CC150. J/S DH8D 736/7/8
User currently offlineyyz717 From Canada, joined Sep 2001, 16308 posts, RR: 56
Reply 19, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 15594 times:

Quoting ytz (Reply 9):
Let's be honest. Montreal's heydays are over.

So true. Relative to the ascendency of Toronto, Calgary and Vancouver as centres of commerce, Montreal is indeed in long term relative decline, due mainly to their language laws, high taxes and poor economy (all inter-related of course). Montreal was the pre-eminent business capital of Canada until the 60's, but has long since been ecllipsed by Toronto. Montreal will never regain the top spot, and indeed has fallen behind Calgary in terms of HQ domiciles to #3. Winnipeg is also in long term relative decline (once Canada's 3rd largest city, now 8th or 9th) but for different reasons and a different thread.

As someone said, there would be more flights to YUL if the demand was there, but it isn't.

There is actually a good economic argument for FEWER nonstop destinations from YUL. For AC to truly restructure and reduce costs, it should shutter the YUL mini-hub and route all west-bound flights thru YYZ. Few airlines would maintain 2 hubs just 300km apart -- the weaker hub weakens the whole network by duplicating costs. It makes much sense for YUL-SFO/LAX/SEA/NRT/PEK/YVR etc traffic to continue and indeed increasingly route strictly through YYZ. So perhaps YUL will have even fewer nonstop destinations at some point in the future if AC truly decides to restructure its decentralized network to reduce costs.

La Presse, a nominally Federalist paper, can lament all it wants about the lack of nonstop flights, but it should look at the causes, which are anti-English language laws and high taxes. And then there is the high corruption in Quebec society as highlighted by Macleans magazine.....



Panam, TWA, Ansett, Eastern.......AC next? Might be good for Canada.
User currently offlineytz From Canada, joined Jun 2009, 2073 posts, RR: 24
Reply 20, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 15591 times:

Quoting YYZatcboy (Reply 18):
This is a list of technology companies in the city of Montreal, Quebec, Canada: (Source Wikipedia)

Mostly obligatory offices to serve Québec, save the odd actual Quebec company. Where do you think Google does more, Montreal or Waterloo?


User currently offlineytz From Canada, joined Jun 2009, 2073 posts, RR: 24
Reply 21, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 15547 times:

Quoting gemuser (Reply 11):
"Quebec's" immigration policies??? As opposed to Canada's immigration policies? They are different? Or are there immigration checks at provincial boarders???

Quebec screens and selects their own immigrants. It also imposes strict integration requirements. All quite different from the rest of Canada.

Quebec also maintains mini quasi-embassies overseas to facilitate all this.


User currently offlineNoise From United States of America, joined Dec 1999, 1810 posts, RR: 4
Reply 22, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 15545 times:

This is so annoying.

Montreal doesn't have the head offices other cities like Toronto, Chicago, New York and Los Angeles have.

Montreal doesn't have the wealth that Toronto and Calgary and Vancouver have.

Montreal isn't as ideally located geographically as Toronto.

I can go on and on and on...

These are the reasons why Montreal doesn't have the non-stop flight it would like to have. Quebecers have been voting in separatist, franco-fascist governments that have been scared away businesses for decades. What else can you expect?

Quoting gemuser (Reply 11):
"Quebec's" immigration policies??? As opposed to Canada's immigration policies? They are different? Or are there immigration checks at provincial boarders???

Gemuser

Yes, Quebec does have it's own immigration policies. A large chunk of them are based on whether you can speak french or not....whereas the rest of Canada focuses more on talent/skills of the individuals...Quebec places an added emphasis on whether you can speak French.


User currently offlineytz From Canada, joined Jun 2009, 2073 posts, RR: 24
Reply 23, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 15486 times:

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 17):
Montreal is still one of the world's major aerospace centers

The GTA and Winnipeg are gunning for this market too. Bombardier is slowly but surely diversifying out of Montreal. Another referendum should speed that up.


User currently offlinebobloblaw From United States of America, joined Jan 2012, 1725 posts, RR: 1
Reply 24, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 15476 times:

Quoting yyz717 (Reply 19):
For AC to truly restructure and reduce costs, it should shutter the YUL mini-hub and route all west-bound flights thru YYZ.

No. You mean to tell me there is no demand for nonstops from YUL-YYC/YVR?? If AC did that, they would lose all that traffic to WS, who would simply replace the lost nonstop capacity. To say that YUL population over 3m cant support AC nonstops to YVR pop 2m is not true. Do you think QF should cancel all BNE flights to ADL and PER???SAmre argument. If AC cancelled YUL-LAX, they would lose all that traffic to AA via ORD. Quebeckers would see AC moves and anti-French and boycott the "New AC" Canada is not the USA and cannot operate a hub spoke system like the USA does. There are ample opportunities for P2P flying within Canada.


25 DesertFlyer : I'd be interested to know how this flight does because it's always $700+ for a r/t. Seems like it must get good yields, and it's timed well, but it's
26 flyyul : Really? Is this fact? Did you come up with this is your long-winded anti-Quebec tirade? 1.) Go through the FP500, over 100 of Canada's top companies
27 yyz717 : Of course there is demand, but remember AC is profit challenged. Its not a market share game so if AC can make more $ routing thru YYZ, they should d
28 ARN : Stockholm City Council published a report last fall on the same topic. Lack of nonstop longdistance flights reduces local economy to the equivalent of
29 bobloblaw : I dont think that AC would be viable as a two hub only airline with all routes either two or from YYZ and YVR. Overtime WS would render AC as a secon
30 Post contains images flyyul : YYZ717 is not an airline expert .. there are however certain economies of scale by building up a critical mass in YYZ which AC is currently undertaki
31 strfyr51 : It's been My understanding over the years that Quebec discouraged USA airlines from flying into Montreal, and Quebec City. In 29 years at United I've
32 flyyul : This is factually incorrect. Montreal/Quebec City/Flin Flon Manitoba can be served easily under Canada/USA open skies treaty. Interesting United avoi
33 bobloblaw : Growing YYZ maybe a good a good idea, but shrinking AC down to only YYZ (maybe YVR), isnt Prior to openskies, I think that any new US airline to Mont
34 Viscount724 : To each his own. I've lived in 3 of the 4 cities you mention (YEG/YYC/YVR) but I much prefer visiting YUL where I've never lived but have visited doz
35 strfyr51 : Then OBVIOUSLY the return on investment wasn't there was it?? What I'm saying goes Way back to Air Wisconsin and Ransome airlines back in the late 70'
36 Post contains images yyz717 : its arguably not viable now with 3 hubs. Also, YUL is too close to YYZ. It is simply not sustainable on its own as a hub. You mean just like WS is no
37 Post contains images flyyul : Pant size? Do you secretly work for Porter .. otherwise might be tough to compete with me
38 bobloblaw : YUL is not a true hub with banked flights. Most traffic on AC thru YUL is local. Plus from the maritimes to the eastern USA, YUL is better for connec
39 YVRLTN : Isnt it normally cheaper to connect through a hub than pay the fares of a direct flight? Anyone can get to all of the cities mentioned on the wishlist
40 YYZAMS : Totally agree. Why are they complaining? When I watch older movies and older music tours YUL is mentioned over YYZ. YUL was part of the circuit and i
41 Quokkas : If the economic demand was there, I would expect city-pairs to be served. If the demand isn't there, then it makes sense that airlines would operate f
42 yyz717 : Umm no. WS is doing well because it has not built up legacy costs, and because AC has failed at managing theirs down. AC has the highest costs of any
43 airsmiles : As UK visitor to Montreal for the first time in the last few weeks, I was shocked that the city was so unfriendly to english speakers. I thought Canad
44 United_fan : What plane could make it to SIN non-stop , especially with SQ phasing out the A340-500's.
45 United_fan : I agree. I went to the GM assembly plant back in '98,and it was an eye-opening experience.
46 Post contains links flyyul : Really unfortunate you had such a bad experience. The majority of people I speak who visit the city typically have positive experiences with customer
47 drgmobile : This is completely baseless. Dorval has always had U.S. carriers and transborder flights.
48 2travel2know2 : If YUL wants more connectivity, YUL should settle with the airlines who want to fly there now and not to be picky because IST, PTY, DXB and DOH aren'
49 EL-AL : No it is not. Once the stupid policy of forcing any international flight to land in Montreal was cancelled, El Al moved all it's flights to Toronto,
50 thenoflyzone : many Jewish Canadians left for Toronto, fearing that Quebec might leave the federation following the rise during the 1970s of nationalist political p
51 brilondon : Yes. You can't do business in Quebec unless you abide by the laws in Quebec as they see fit. Their language laws are restrictive and it is anti-Engli
52 Roseflyer : It is Canada’s fault. There is a list of airlines that want to fly there like Copa, Emirates, Turkish, etc. However the Canadian government isn’t
53 stevebarylick : Many years back when Quebec and in particular, Montreal, decided to revert to conducting business and tourism in French only a backlash occurred with
54 Post contains links ytz : You're starting to imagine things. Anti-Quebec tirade. I love Montreal. I lament what it's become. As for the aerospace growth I cited. You might wan
55 SpaceshipDC10 : There are the laws, and there's the way they are applied. Less than three hours ago it was mentioned in a short chronicle in Médium large (Radio-Can
56 flyyul : There's no doubt Montreal has many things weighing it down. Toronto has lost something like 40-50 headquarters in the last 10-15 years just by indust
57 Post contains images Kaiarahi : Quebec essentially selects its own immigrants under a 1977 agreement (Cullen-Couture) with the federal government. Immigration interviews for those a
58 ytz : For what it's worth, I find that the language brown shirts tend to go after mom and pop stores more than large businesses. They would never have the c
59 hohd : I had the opposite experience when I visited Montreal several years ago, may have changed now. In fact I was surprised that most people I met know En
60 ytz : Don't take my posts as a defence of Toronto. Despite being a Torontonian by upbringing, I think the GTA is failing as a region. Government gridlock l
61 flyyul : Its not a criticism at all. I'm always inspired when I walk through Toronto (downtown especially). My issue how do we expect our economies to grow wh
62 Noise : It depends on which part of the city you're in. West of Saint Lawrence Boulevard you have a bilingual/traditionally English population where most peo
63 YYZatcboy : It's interesting to me that the only time I have ever been ridiculed for my French is in Montreal. I lived for months doing courses in Quebec City an
64 pnwtraveler : I worked for a Montreal company for almost 10 years, was in the city almost once a month at times, and often spent the weekend there. I love Montreal.
65 flyyul : Agreed - the city has taken a different shape. Once one goes east of St-Denis street, it becomes fairly unfriendly and very gritty with huge "nationa
66 YULWinterSkies : YUL might not have every single non-stop that we want, but bottom line is that I would love to see US cities the size of YUL having just as much long-
67 IAHWorldflyer : As a US citizen, I know I have a through the looking glass perspective, but I'll weigh in, since I was in Montreal for a week last year. I think for t
68 Post contains images thenoflyzone : Lawrence?..... It's St. Laurent.... And boulevard is mentioned first, not last...... (couldn't resist !) Thenoflyzone
69 Post contains images Noise : Not where I come friend, my friend
70 brilondon : What about Westjet need for French speaking F/A's as mandated by the Provincial Government? GE? I guess in Quebec they are just Mom and Pop operation
71 Noise : Or what about the Government of Quebec going after BestBuy and Wal-Mart and forcing them to either change their names or adopt a French equivalent?
72 Kaiarahi : Nothing whatsoever to do with the provincial government. Aviation is federally regulated, including the bilingual service requirements.
73 SpaceshipDC10 : Probably not since they are trademark.
74 Noise : That hasn't stopped the Quebec government. Just goes to show the kind of hostility there is towards anything non-French in Quebec.
75 ElPistolero : Yet another thread about the international connectivity of an airport amounting to little more than what AC wants to do with it. A sad commentary on C
76 Post contains links thenoflyzone : balanced budget within 5 years ? ya right..i'll believe it when i see it. The deficit of $11.9 billion is not getting solved anytime soon. Only one w
77 Post contains links thenoflyzone : balanced budget within 5 years ? ya right..i'll believe it when i see it. The deficit of $11.9 billion is not getting solved anytime soon. Only one w
78 ytz : Off-topic, but I'd support a tax hike. I want balanced books more than a few extra bucks in my pocket. On topic. We hear about how big some of Montre
79 ElPistolero : That was a response to a comment about the amount of service YUL gets vis-a-vis BOS, given their similarity in size. I merely pointed out that the na
80 Lutfi : Some years back, I was looking at a job (with IATA) in Montreal. Nice city, I can get by in french, etc. The deal breaker was education, my children c
81 Post contains links thenoflyzone : http://www.cqsb.qc.ca/myscriptorweb/scripto.asp?resultat=456113 Look at point # 8. Couldn't you have been eligible on a temporary work authorization?
82 Lutfi : ICAO yes, IATA no. And position was permanent, not temporary... i.e I would have become an immigrant, rather than an expat
83 Post contains images abrelosojos : = Haha. Perhaps, you should work for YUL ASD instead . I don't think the question is whether YUL is a big city. It is a matter of YUL being in declin
84 Post contains images aeroblogger : Time to retitle the thread: "YUL: Lack Of Non Stop Flights Costing City $300M, Saving Airlines $600M" YUL can wish for whatever services it wants, but
85 PITrules : Probably correct wrt Detroit and I won't speak for Cleveland, but totally false statement in the case of Pittsburgh. Especially when discussing a kno
86 flyyul : "My airline" has. Since 2007 - AC has added service to Brussels, Geneva, Rome. Athens - put 777 on FRA/CDG which weren't there previously. When Air C
87 Post contains images yyz717 : How can? You're asking the wrong question. Why DOES it need to co-exist? There is a strong network case to be made for shuttering much of the YUL hub
88 UALWN : I've been to Montreal a couple of times, and my experience cannot be more different. I speak reasonable French (not perfect), and I tried to speak Fr
89 airsmiles : Just come back to this thread and was surprised at the number of responses. Just to fill in some points raised:- I went to various places in Montreal
90 caribb : My take on this an a long time Montrealer. I haven't read all the posts in the threat but I can presume the usual people came in with their anti-Quebe
91 Post contains images flyyul : Neil - you're assuming YUL/YYZ play the same network role which they don't. You're right, YUL is a "boutique hub-ette" and it should stay that way di
92 Post contains images flyyul : Certainly good points. Ironically in the last year, there's been a big wave of UK-Montreal business deals. (i.e. CGI buying Logica, SNC setting up a
93 Flighty : I was thinking... only 300 million? Think of the billions they would lose if they actually paid for these flights to occur!! They are getting a barga
94 Post contains images Quantos : Depending on the area of Montreal, it might not be surprising that people would have trouble understanding a person from France. Quebec French is ver
95 yultopei : Is incredible the number of YUL bashing people here... I'm living in Montreal all my life, i live in many other country for period of time and i can s
96 Noise : Sorry buddy but that simply isn't true. As an English-speaking Montrealer, I have in the past been refused service in English and have been spoken to
97 pnwtraveler : Montreal has an atmosphere, joie de vivre (lifestyle of enjoyment of life) and a European-like culture that just isn't matched anywhere else in North
98 skiaplg : In my personal experience, as French, I have been to Quebec and Montreal an innumerable amount of times, and know at least 10-15 english speakers who
99 2travel2know2 : If Canada grants CM extra frequencies to Canada and those can't be used to YYZ, CM will grab them immediately, no question asked and try YUL. And tha
100 Post contains images pnwtraveler : Anyone who has a foreign accent and tries French gets a bit of a different experience than a neutral Canadian or US accent. Someone with a Texas acce
101 flyyul : I strongly believe that Montreal as a hub would be better served being aligned with Air Canada. Turkish/Emirates/COPA are all significant global carr
102 Post contains images abrelosojos : = Good. And I agree with you. I am glad you have recognized that YUL is secondary to YYZ. = Well, it is clear that I am not the only one. Forget the
103 NorthStarDC4M : Ontario isn't bilingual... and Toronto certainly isn't, and that's coming from a french speaking Torontonian... Getting french speakers in Ontario is
104 flyyul : You don't have to take my word for it. The CEO mentioned it in public - clearly internally the team has done their homework Montreal is very secondar
105 Post contains images abrelosojos : = Well, I take things from a CEO who has failed to make serious turn arounds with a grain of salt. Of course, if there is money to be made, go for it
106 flyyul : I happen to disagree with this. Under this CEO - Air Canada has been able to improve its liquidity position by nearly 100% and manage to squeak sever
107 Post contains images MaverickM11 : It will never be out of the woods as long as its revenues are essentially privatized and costs driven by the political winds in Ottawa. If someone th
108 ytz : Wrong. The Constitution defines the Government of Canada as bilingual. Not the country of Canada. And you can get service from the government in Fren
109 brilondon : Just because it is federal, does not mean they have both French and English. I worked for a federally regulated company and I don't have to speak Eng
110 flyyul : agreed. And these people taint the great majority of people in Quebec that want what's best for the province.
111 ytz : Never said they don't speak English. But I can recall several (not just one) incident where an STM employee either refused to serve me in English or
112 Airontario : Why is it that every thread on here that involves YUL brings out the anti-Montreal/Quebec crowd? There was a similar thread to this a while back about
113 NorthStarDC4M : This is how... 1- Montreal doesn't get X 2- Somewhere else does get X 3- Why doesn't Montreal get X but somewhere else does 4- Enter pro/anti Quebec
114 caribb : It's basically the same culprits each time. The word Montreal or YUL gets them up on their soapbox and they start preaching to the choir. The same de
115 ftornik : Montreal - Middle East service. Montreal has service to Algiers and Casablanca. Both routes are based on immigrant communities and the latter also is
116 Post contains links longhauler : Qatar is allowed into YYZ, with the same rights as YUL. They chose YUL over YYZ due to the market already flown by EK and EY. They could have chosen
117 brilondon : First I would like to say that yes there are a few bad apples in the bunch, but on the whole to try to taint all STM employees with the same brush I
118 UALWN : Well, if the separatists are elected to the Quebec government, maybe they are not a small minority... Maybe this is a better example: try getting ser
119 Quantos : Keep in mind actual separatism is not a currently active political issue, and hasn't truly been since 1995 (last referendum). There subsists a core of
120 longhauler : Having lived in Switzerland for a few years, I certainly agree with that (and I speak French and German). And ... if you think Quebecois are rude whe
121 UALWN : I've lived in the Geneva area for a number of years. I wouldn't say the Swiss are particularly rude. It's just that it's inconceivable for them that
122 Post contains images TS-IOR : Syphax Airlines is to start a TUN-YUL sooner... within the next few months the A330 which will fly the route is being customized to be delivered soon
123 Post contains images lightsaber : Of all the missed destinations, I see ICN th most likely as noted: With the open skies, KE could open up quite a bit to YUL. Sad fact. AC needs to rat
124 Viscount724 : I disagree with that. I've lived in the GVA area for almost 17 years and speak little French (I can read fairly well but conversational skills are ve
125 Skywatcher : My opinion is that as the years pass more and more North American cities will receive direct air service to China. It is inevitable. I suspect that on
126 hoons90 : A hypothetical YUL-ICN flight would probably rely heavily on low yielding leisure traffic connecting onwards to KE's vast Southeast Asia network. I'm
127 bsbisland : I wonder if YUL-GRU would ever work with AC, specially after GRU terminal 4 is ready after 2014. Canada-Brazil seems terribly underserved.
128 Post contains links ftornik : Based on public information (http://www.otc-cta.gc.ca/eng/bilateral) you are right. However the actual web-site you should be looking at is http://ww
129 Revelation : It's not about being inconsiderate, it's about the bottom line. Hub and spoke is the most efficient thing to do when a city pair doesn't support non-
130 brilondon : You are looking at Canada as a isolated island. The US is with 200 km of 90% of the population of Canada and there are cheaper alternatives in the US
131 longhauler : American airports are normally only cheaper when traveling within the United States. But looking at your example, I picked a date a couple months fro
132 Aesma : Just the other day I was surprised to see a TV ad on French TV for immigration not to Canada but Québec.
133 Post contains images lightsaber : That might explain the lack of the flight. However, there should be enough J demand to grow a connection to a hub: I suspect YUL will see more connec
134 Kaiarahi : So LH should can DUS? The relationship between FRA/DUS and YYZ/YUL is very similar.
135 Viscount724 : FRA-MUC (as the crow flies) is also only 301 km, much closer than the 508 km from Montreal to Toronto.
136 Fly2yyz : The only thing airline I see flying from YUL is TS operating YUL-YVR-Asia. KE/OZ would not operate to YUL but merely codeshare through WS/AC or from
137 RayChuang : The separatist movement in Quebec essentially scared a lot of business out of Montreal and the airport that serves the airport, YUL. Which is too bad
138 Post contains links lightsaber : You make a good point. Now what would LH do if they had another runway, terminal, and 24/7 ops at FRA? It would be rational to consolidate. Last I lo
139 silentbob : That has been my experience in multiple visits as well. That is contrary to the experience of most people I know I have heard people speaking English
140 flyyul : Great. Just go to Tourisme Montreal website and see the many surveys done - and which indicate that Montreal is seen as a friendly place for business
141 airsmiles : "Why this becomes an anti-Quebec, anti-Montreal and cultural discussion is really absurd." (from YLYYUL) Here lies the fundamental issue. Quebecois se
142 Post contains images Kaiarahi : Exactly the case of YUL. It's catchment area for O&D/connecting traffic includes YQB, YOW and secondary Quebec cities - approximately 9 million.
143 UALWN : And abandon MUC, which serves the de-facto business (not finance) capital of Germany? I don't think so.
144 adamh8297 : AC will sometimes be the cheapest carrier on BOS-
145 flyyul : Nobody is disagreeing with you on this. There's a strong vocal minority of people that don't like outsiders. I'm cautious to let this vocal minority
146 lightsaber : I never said abandon. However, connectivity makes it easy to connect. Perhaps the growth would switch to FRA? But it is a pipe dream. Europe is doing
147 Skywatcher : In my opinion the "hub" and spoke system has maxed out. I miss almost every connection I book in EWR these days because of congestion. The fact that t
148 UALWN : FRA just opened a new runway.
149 lightsaber : Most passengers are. I believe the MRJ, re-engined E-jets, C-series, MAX, and NEO will further that trend. But there will still be hubs. I agree hubs
150 UALWN : By an hour, I think...
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