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Sad To See DL Mainline Disappearing From DFW  
User currently offlinesankaps From United States of America, joined Jan 2008, 2252 posts, RR: 2
Posted (1 year 1 month 3 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 11265 times:

There was once a time when Delta had a hub at Dallas DFW, while Northwest too had a fairly strong mainline presence. However on making some bookings for an upcoming MSP-DFW-LGA trip, I was surprised and disappointed to see that the only options I had on Delta was on ERJs and CRJs for both legs -- no mainline aircraft at all! Especially surprised to see that for the MSP-DFW leg, as it is a fairly major route involving a DL hub -- DL only flies E75s or CR9s on that route, while AA flies 738s.

Sad to see DL's relative decline in both MSP and DFW. Where are they flying all their mainline jets if not on routes like this?

24 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlinetommy767 From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 6584 posts, RR: 11
Reply 1, posted (1 year 1 month 3 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 11176 times:

Well out of MSP these days it's like large RJ city for DL. Even EWR-MSP is mostly CR9 and E175 except during the summer where an M88 or M90 makes an appearance.

As for DFW, I think the overall strategy is high frequency with RJs to DTW, MEM, MSP, SLC. DFW-ATL still gets plenty of 757s.



"Folks that's the news and I'm outta here!" -- Dennis Miller
User currently offlineusflyer msp From United States of America, joined May 2000, 2026 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (1 year 1 month 3 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 11149 times:

NW/DL mainline has been gone on MSP-DFW for quite some time, since before the merger. It really boils down to geography. MSP is so far north that it is not a very useful connecting hub for DFW residents (unless they are heading to Canada or the Dakotas). This means that DL focuses on the O/D market which DL serves with 70/90 seat RJ's for frequency reasons. AA can connect MSP with the Southwest, Southeast, and Latin America via DFW, so it can support mainline on the route.

User currently offlinen126dl From United States of America, joined May 2010, 119 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (1 year 1 month 3 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 11102 times:
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ATL-DFW is a mix of 88/90's and 757. They have a few A319/A320 from SLC and DTW. Just part of the "rights sizing" in MSP, perhaps?


DH8 E145 E175 CR2/7/9 A319/20 A332/3 D95 M88 M90 737/8 752/3 763/4
User currently offlineAlsatian From France, joined May 2005, 412 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (1 year 1 month 3 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 11051 times:

Quoting sankaps (Thread starter):
while AA flies 738s.

And MD80s

Quoting tommy767 (Reply 1):
As for DFW, I think the overall strategy is high frequency with RJs

There are 7 DL roundtrips (E75/CR9) on weekdays on the DFW - DTW route while AA offers 6 daily flights.

[Edited 2013-02-24 13:16:03]


Ok I am French but I am not on strike
User currently onlinedeltacto From United States of America, joined Mar 2009, 400 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (1 year 1 month 3 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 10982 times:

Checking Flights Schedules for February 25:


Flights // Mainline
ATL - 12 / 12
CVG - 3 / 0
DTW - 6 / 3
MEM - 3 / 0
MSP - 7 / 0
LGA - 7 / 0
JFK - 1 / 0
SLC - 4 / 2

Total 43 / 17

Note - All 7 LGA flights, 3 of the MSP flights, and 2 of the DTW flights are operated by E-170's and E-175's


User currently offlinebobloblaw From United States of America, joined Jan 2012, 1446 posts, RR: 1
Reply 6, posted (1 year 1 month 3 weeks 1 day ago) and read 10711 times:

AA is stronger on every one of those routes than is DL. Only on ATL is DL as strong or stronger than AA. When you have a mega hub like DFW the locals plus all the connects from AA outweigh the connections DL can generate from their hubs, except ATL. What you're seeing is DFW overpowering smaller hubs like DTW or MSP.

User currently offlinesankaps From United States of America, joined Jan 2008, 2252 posts, RR: 2
Reply 7, posted (1 year 1 month 3 weeks 1 day ago) and read 10578 times:

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 9):
Is there anything unique to DFW going on? DL has cut dramatically at most outstations in the past 5 years. At my home airport, ATL used to see all mainline with mostly 757s; now, we see nothing larger than a 320

Precisely, though DFW seems to be one of the larger metros with disappearing DL mainline service. Which is why I asked in my original post, where IS Delta flying all their mainline jets to?


User currently offlineDTWPurserBoy From United States of America, joined Feb 2010, 1255 posts, RR: 6
Reply 8, posted (1 year 1 month 3 weeks 1 day ago) and read 10288 times:

[quote=usflyer msp,reply=2]NW/DL mainline has been gone on MSP-DFW for quite some time, since before the merger. It really boils down to geography. MSP is so far north that it is not a very useful connecting hub for DFW residents (unless they are heading to Canada or the Dakotas). This means that DL focuses on the O/D market which DL serves with 70/90 seat RJ's for frequency reasons. AA can connect MSP with the Southwest, Southeast, and Latin America via DFW, so it can support mainline on the route.

The late great Braniff International easily filled 3-4 MSP-DFW non-stops a day back in the '70's--mostly 727-200's but some -100's and the odd DC8.



Qualified on Concorde/B707/B720/B727/B737/B747/B757/B767/B777/DC-8/DC-9/DC-10/A319/A320/A330/MD-88-90
User currently offlinebobloblaw From United States of America, joined Jan 2012, 1446 posts, RR: 1
Reply 9, posted (1 year 1 month 3 weeks 23 hours ago) and read 10138 times:

Quoting DTWPurserBoy (Reply 14):
The late great Braniff International easily filled 3-4 MSP-DFW non-stops a day back in the '70's--mostly 727-200's but some -100's and the odd DC8.

No they didnt fill it. BN probably had a 50-60% LF at fares that would be equal to $700 today.


User currently offlineusairways787 From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 290 posts, RR: 1
Reply 10, posted (1 year 1 month 3 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 9840 times:

Quoting tommy767 (Reply 1):
As for DFW, I think the overall strategy is high frequency with RJs to DTW, MEM, MSP, SLC. DFW-ATL still gets plenty of 757s.

It's slow season here, so we aren't getting any 757's really, the other day was an exception. Only one we would touch would be 1482, even today it was an 88. Spring break comes, things will be up gauged to a 75.

Quoting bobloblaw (Reply 10):

AA is stronger on every one of those routes than is DL. Only on ATL is DL as strong or stronger than AA. When you have a mega hub like DFW the locals plus all the connects from AA outweigh the connections DL can generate from their hubs, except ATL. What you're seeing is DFW overpowering smaller hubs like DTW or MSP.

100% correct. 90% of the traffic we deal with is connecting bags out of DFW. The only one that usually isn't would be SLC. Other than that, it's mostly connecting.

US787



"Pre departure walk around complete, all doors closed, ready for pushback"
User currently offlineDTWPurserBoy From United States of America, joined Feb 2010, 1255 posts, RR: 6
Reply 11, posted (1 year 1 month 3 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 9019 times:

Quoting bobloblaw (Reply 15):
No they didnt fill it. BN probably had a 50-60% LF at fares that would be equal to $700 today.

I don't know--I worked a lot of full flights and got bumped off more than one trying to get back to MSP from DFW. Like all airlines, it depeneded on the time of year and the time of the day.

Plus we had MANY flights that originated in MSP or DFW and stopped in TUL, MCI, DSM, OKC or OMA before terminating. We had lots of thru pax.



Qualified on Concorde/B707/B720/B727/B737/B747/B757/B767/B777/DC-8/DC-9/DC-10/A319/A320/A330/MD-88-90
User currently offlineSESGDL From United States of America, joined Jan 2001, 3452 posts, RR: 10
Reply 12, posted (1 year 1 month 3 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 7345 times:

Quoting tommy767 (Reply 1):
Well out of MSP these days it's like large RJ city for DL. Even EWR-MSP is mostly CR9 and E175 except during the summer where an M88 or M90 makes an appearance.

This is the same thing that has happened at every DL hub other than ATL. The ratio of mainline to regional jets has dramatically decreased since the merger, except at ATL.

Quoting n126dl (Reply 3):
ATL-DFW is a mix of 88/90's and 757. They have a few A319/A320 from SLC and DTW. Just part of the "rights sizing" in MSP, perhaps?

Not really, DL hasn't had significant mainline service on MSP-DTW for years, and only recently did DTW-DFW regain more substantial mainline service. DL mainline service reappears this summer, however, on MSP-DTW.

Quoting sankaps (Reply 7):
Precisely, though DFW seems to be one of the larger metros with disappearing DL mainline service. Which is why I asked in my original post, where IS Delta flying all their mainline jets to?

ATL mostly, with around 700 mainline flights scheduled this summer, more than any airline hub ever before. MSP still sees the second largest number of mainline flights in DL's system with approximately 190 mainline flights this summer, not too shabby.

Jeremy


User currently offlineIrishAyes From United States of America, joined Jan 2008, 2088 posts, RR: 15
Reply 13, posted (1 year 1 month 3 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 7042 times:

The situation is really no different up here at ORD.

ORD-ATL is served on MD-88s/DC-9-50s and 1x 757. There's also the occasional token A320/A319 sent 1x daily to DTW and MSP each, and the rest are all on E-175s and CRJ-900s.

SLC, MEM, CVG, JFK and LGA are all on RJs.

Back in the day, I flew an A319 from DFW to DTW and a DC-9 from MSP to DFW on the return. I think the DC-9 retirement somewhat signaled the "end" of mainline on routes like DFW-MSP and DFW-MEM.

In any case, its more logical for DL to deploy higher-frequency flights using a right-sized cabin configuration on an important market like DFW to MSP.

**EDIT** There is also the 4x weekly ORD-CDG flight on a 763, which doesn't count  Wink

[Edited 2013-02-24 20:47:45]


next flights: msp-phx-slc, msp-mdw, ord-sju, sju-dfw-ord, msp-dfw, dfw-phl, phl-msp, jfk-icn, icn-hkg-bkk-cdg
User currently offlinetommy767 From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 6584 posts, RR: 11
Reply 14, posted (1 year 1 month 3 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 6938 times:

Quoting deltacto (Reply 5):
Total 43 / 17

Note - All 7 LGA flights, 3 of the MSP flights, and 2 of the DTW flights are operated by E-170's and E-175's

60 flights a day from DFW? That's actually pretty impressive for DL, RJs or not.



"Folks that's the news and I'm outta here!" -- Dennis Miller
User currently offlinesteex From United States of America, joined Jun 2007, 1564 posts, RR: 9
Reply 15, posted (1 year 1 month 3 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 6796 times:

Quoting tommy767 (Reply 14):
60 flights a day from DFW? That's actually pretty impressive for DL, RJs or not.

Those shouldn't be added together - it's 43 flights, 17 of which are mainline.


User currently offlineIrishAyes From United States of America, joined Jan 2008, 2088 posts, RR: 15
Reply 16, posted (1 year 1 month 3 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 6796 times:

Quoting tommy767 (Reply 14):
60 flights a day from DFW? That's actually pretty impressive for DL, RJs or not.

That's what happens when airlines merge   You'd be shocked by how busy Terminal E at DFW is on a Tuesday AM at all parts of the concourse. US Airways has at least 7-8 mainline a/c that RON at DFW. It's truly incredible.



next flights: msp-phx-slc, msp-mdw, ord-sju, sju-dfw-ord, msp-dfw, dfw-phl, phl-msp, jfk-icn, icn-hkg-bkk-cdg
User currently onlinePSU.DTW.SCE From United States of America, joined Jan 2002, 7343 posts, RR: 28
Reply 17, posted (1 year 1 month 3 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 5224 times:

I had a post on here from yesterday where I provided some data, not sure why it was deleteted....

Quoting sankaps (Thread starter):
Sad to see DL's relative decline in both MSP and DFW. Where are they flying all their mainline jets if not on routes like this?

DL has not or is not "declining" in either DFW or MSP. Sure, DFW is nothing like it was during the DL hub era, but that has been gone now for over 8 years. In fact, DL has grown somewhat recently in DFW, with the addition of the LGA flights, and also adding additional frequencies to DTW, MSP, and SLC. I would not be surprised to see the addition of LAX and/or SEA if DL is serious about building up those markets and/or feeding their international flights.

Changes in the number of "mainline" flights in DFW are due to the following:
1. DC-9 retirement - the vast majority of mainline from DTW, MSP, and MEM was DC-9-30s where the defacto replacement has been CR9s and E75s.
2. Hub realignment- MEM and CVG
3. Mergers & network changes with the combined NW & DL netowkr

Quoting usflyer msp (Reply 2):
NW/DL mainline has been gone on MSP-DFW for quite some time, since before the merger.

June 2005: 7 daily flights (6 mainline + 1 ARJ) ~700 daily seats
June 2007: 6 daily flights (3 mainline, 1 CR9, 2 50 seat RJs) ~ 500 daily seats
June 2009: 6 daily flights (4 mainline, 2 2-class RJs) ~550 daily seats
June 2013: 7 daily flights (1 mainline, 6 2-class RJs) ~ 600 daily seats

The majority of mainline was historically DC-9s. For the past few years, mainline on both DFW-DTW & MSP gets reduced or even eliminated altogether during the winter months, but returns for the spring-summer.

DFW-MSP gets an A320 starting again April.

Quoting deltacto (Reply 5):
Flights // Mainline
ATL - 12 / 12
CVG - 3 / 0
DTW - 6 / 3
MEM - 3 / 0
MSP - 7 / 0
LGA - 7 / 0
JFK - 1 / 0
SLC - 4 / 2

Total 43 / 17

Note - All 7 LGA flights, 3 of the MSP flights, and 2 of the DTW flights are operated by E-170's and E-175's

SLC gains another mainline flight this summer, for a total of 3/5 mainline flights

It is important to note that all but the 6am DFW-MEM flight are on 2-class RJs or mainline equipment. Thus 42/43 flights have a premium cabin. That is pretty impressive in its own right and not found in too many markets.

At least they aren't flying CRJ-200s on MSP-DFW like NW was for a period after bankruptcy.

Quoting usairways787 (Reply 10):
It's slow season here, so we aren't getting any 757's really, the other day was an exception. Only one we would touch would be 1482, even today it was an 88. Spring break comes, things will be up gauged to a 75.

Yep, although by June DFW-ATL goes all-MD90.

Quoting SESGDL (Reply 12):
This is the same thing that has happened at every DL hub other than ATL. The ratio of mainline to regional jets has dramatically decreased since the merger, except at ATL.

Exactly.

Quoting SESGDL (Reply 12):
Not really, DL hasn't had significant mainline service on MSP-DTW for years, and only recently did DTW-DFW regain more substantial mainline service. DL mainline service reappears this summer, however, on MSP-DTW.

Exactly, really since about 2010 when the DC-9-30/40s were retired.

NW had 172 DC-9s at its peak in 2000, now down to about 19 DC-9-50s that remain primarily flying short hops out of ATL.

Quoting IrishAyes (Reply 16):
That's what happens when airlines merge You'd be shocked by how busy Terminal E at DFW is on a Tuesday AM at all parts of the concourse.

Exactly. DL even picked-up another gate, now has E17.


User currently offlinetommy767 From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 6584 posts, RR: 11
Reply 18, posted (1 year 1 month 3 weeks ago) and read 2695 times:

Quoting IrishAyes (Reply 16):
That's what happens when airlines merge You'd be shocked by how busy Terminal E at DFW is on a Tuesday AM at all parts of the concourse. US Airways has at least 7-8 mainline a/c that RON at DFW. It's truly incredible.

That and thanks to the merger, DFW is one of the largest spokes for UA -- some 40 flights a day out of DFW as well.



"Folks that's the news and I'm outta here!" -- Dennis Miller
User currently offlinenickofatlanta From Australia, joined May 2000, 1483 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 2507 times:

Quoting SESGDL (Reply 12):
ATL mostly, with around 700 mainline flights scheduled this summer, more than any airline hub ever before. MSP still sees the second largest number of mainline flights in DL's system with approximately 190 mainline flights this summer, not too shabby.

I know that ATL is obviously a powerhouse hub, but did not realise the differential between it and the second largest hub in MSP. Having more than three times as many mainline flights is a massive difference!!


User currently offlinesankaps From United States of America, joined Jan 2008, 2252 posts, RR: 2
Reply 20, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 2485 times:

Quoting nickofatlanta (Reply 19):
I know that ATL is obviously a powerhouse hub, but did not realise the differential between it and the second largest hub in MSP. Having more than three times as many mainline flights is a massive difference!!



Hence now, even more than before, this rings true: "When you die and go to heaven / hell, you still need to change planes in Atlanta"!  


User currently offlinejr From United States of America, joined May 1999, 966 posts, RR: 6
Reply 21, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 2030 times:

Quoting PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 17):
I would not be surprised to see the addition of LAX and/or SEA if DL is serious about building up those markets and/or feeding their international flights.

There is no one who would like to see that happening more than me!

Quoting sankaps (Reply 20):
Hence now, even more than before, this rings true: "When you die and go to heaven / hell, you still need to change planes in Atlanta"!

Unless you live in DFW and can go non-stop. But can you transit through hell to heaven?   Maybe I have to stick with DL!



I've flown on 9V-SPK.
User currently offlineKL911 From Ireland, joined Jul 2003, 5084 posts, RR: 12
Reply 22, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 1979 times:

Quoting sankaps (Thread starter):
I was surprised and disappointed to see that the only options I had on Delta was on ERJs and CRJs for both legs -- no mainline aircraft at all!

Is there really so much difference in seat pitch etc between mainline and RJ? I would think that a small plane is more quiet inside and has faster boarding etc. Or am I wrong?



Next trip : DUB-AUH-CGK-DPS-KUL-AUH-CDG-ORK :-)
User currently offlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 22302 posts, RR: 20
Reply 23, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 1802 times:

Quoting DTW.SCE" class="quote" target="_blank">PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 17):
Changes in the number of "mainline" flights in DFW are due to the following:
1. DC-9 retirement - the vast majority of mainline from DTW, MSP, and MEM was DC-9-30s where the defacto replacement has been CR9s and E75s.
2. Hub realignment- MEM and CVG
3. Mergers & network changes with the combined NW & DL netowkr

All true, of course, but I suspect that if you compare 2005 and the present, you'll find the number of seats down pretty dramatically both at DFW and at most outstations.



I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
User currently onlinePSU.DTW.SCE From United States of America, joined Jan 2002, 7343 posts, RR: 28
Reply 24, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 1730 times:

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 23):
All true, of course, but I suspect that if you compare 2005 and the present, you'll find the number of seats down pretty dramatically both at DFW and at most outstations.

Yep, exactly. NW shed a bunch of capacity during bankruptcy. 2005 was in a different era, in a different cost structure, a significantly lower cost of fuel, different revenue environment, different economic factors.

DL is about 20% smaller than what NW and DL were together as stand alone airlines.

Like you say, what DFW has seen by DL is very similar to most outstations and most markets since 2005. More 2-class RJs, less total capacity, and in many cases more frequency.


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