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BA/IB - A Marriage Made In Hell.  
User currently onlineTC957 From UK - England, joined May 2012, 1041 posts, RR: 0
Posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 20614 times:

It's reported in the travel trade publications that the IAG group are in the red purely because of IB's losses, with fuel prices being blamed. I'm wondering what possesed Willie Walsh that combining BA and IB was such a great idea.

119 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineLAXdude1023 From India, joined Sep 2006, 7808 posts, RR: 25
Reply 1, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 20679 times:

Sounds similar to KL and AF. Its like the beautiful women (BA and KL) that married the fat ugly slobs (IB and AF).


Stewed...Lewd...Crude...Irreverent...Belligerent
User currently offlineRussianJet From Belgium, joined Jul 2007, 7719 posts, RR: 21
Reply 2, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 20491 times:

Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 1):
Sounds similar to KL and AF. Its like the beautiful women (BA and KL) that married the fat ugly slobs (IB and AF).

It is similar. Somehow, though, I feel more sorry for KL than BA. Not sure how accurate my impression is, and it's only an impression - I'm no expert, but it seems that KL is probably at more risk than BA in terms of maintaining their identity and product.

I have never understood even slightly why on earth they thought it was a good idea to join with IB. My immediate reaction when I heard it was happening was to question why the hell they did it, because there was little obvious reason.

Anyone care to try and explain what they were playing at when they made that decision?



✈ Every strike of the hammer is a blow against the enemy. ✈
User currently offlineLHRFlyer From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2010, 823 posts, RR: 1
Reply 3, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 20433 times:

Quoting RussianJet (Reply 2):
Anyone care to try and explain what they were playing at when they made that decision?

If you go back three years ago, BA had no scope for growth at LHR and had to look elsewhere and Iberia had a complementary route network. At the time, it was not expected that the Eurozone crisis would be so bad and at least Spain seems to have got through the worst of it with better than expected debt/GDP figures recently.

The fact that the share price actually went up today says investors have full confidence IAG can turn things around.

The financial result is bad but I think there's an element of if the results are going to be bad, then it's best to get all of the bad news out of the way for a positive turnaround next year.


User currently offlineshuttle9juliet From UK - Scotland, joined Jul 2010, 192 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 20247 times:

Quoting RussianJet (Reply 2):

Basically I think BA were very late in getting married , should have really hitched up with KLM earlier on, but as one member on here commented, they were left with the ugly girl at the school prom.
But all was not lost as the ugly girl came with benefits, her folks owned a lovely new home in Madrid, and she had relatives in South America..


User currently onlineUALWN From Andorra, joined Jun 2009, 2973 posts, RR: 2
Reply 5, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 20174 times:

Quoting shuttle9juliet (Reply 4):
Basically I think BA were very late in getting married , should have really hitched up with KLM earlier on

Or LX.



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User currently offlineIrishAyes From United States of America, joined Jan 2008, 2241 posts, RR: 15
Reply 6, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 20043 times:

Quoting RussianJet (Reply 2):
It is similar. Somehow, though, I feel more sorry for KL than BA. Not sure how accurate my impression is, and it's only an impression - I'm no expert, but it seems that KL is probably at more risk than BA in terms of maintaining their identity and product.

It sort of depends how you look at it and how you measure problem areas.

Product-wise, AF is more tightly integrated with KL's brand reputation than IB is with BA. Truthfully, I would avoid IB at all costs - it seems like an all around crap carrier with outdated planes and poor service. Whereas AF, despite its financial shortcomings, still is a great airline to fly (based on general experiences) and still at least flies newer aircraft with upgraded interiors.

Airport-wise, MAD is a vastly superior airport to transfer through (moreso than LHR). In contrast, CDG is a nightmare (compared to AMS). So there are some flip-flops there.

However, I think it all really boils down to macro factors, which all European network airlines are suffering from. The Spanish and Eurozone economic crisis have impacted all European carriers. The degree of impact, however, boils down to a country level, like unemployment rate (25% in Spain and rising), labor law headaches, and unhappy/unproductive workforces.

LCC competition is also particularly draining force to reckon with given how lean carriers like Ryanair, Norwegian and EasyJet are. Before these carriers really beefed up, and back when gas was cheaper, network carriers could subsidize profit-thin, higher-cost short-haul markets with feed from their long-haul routes. That strategy is no longer viable now, and airlines like AF and IB have had to initiate aggressive cost-cutting initiatives to turn-around their short-haul mainline ops within Europe.

Quoting RussianJet (Reply 2):
I have never understood even slightly why on earth they thought it was a good idea to join with IB. My immediate reaction when I heard it was happening was to question why the hell they did it, because there was little obvious reason.

I wouldn't say there was little obvious reason. It was an ugly acquisition, but nevertheless one that came armed with a few key assets:

For starters, Madrid is the third largest O&D destination in Europe, after LHR and CDG. That's pretty big. BCN is the fourth largest and, while not an IB hub, the presence of Vueling (a huge success story) served as a contributing factor. IAG is eyeing that prize big time moving forward, and the role that it could play for IAG (if full ownership becomes reality) cannot be underplayed.

Secondly, Iberia is the leading carrier between Europe and the South Atlantic. Allegedly, only 8 of IB's 24 long-haul routes are profitable. Although I'm not exactly sure *which* ones those are, I would not be surprised if the majority of those hail from Latin America.

Honestly, it's going to be a long and painful road to recovery for both AF-KLM and IAG. I do believe that the changes made to Iberia will be the most brutal.



next flights: jfk-icn, icn-hkg-bkk-cdg, cdg-phl-msp
User currently offlinepanamair From United States of America, joined Oct 2001, 4974 posts, RR: 25
Reply 7, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 20021 times:
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Quoting IrishAyes (Reply 6):
I would avoid IB at all costs - it seems like an all around crap carrier with outdated planes and poor service

IB's long-haul Business product is not bad - they already have flat-beds in J, for example.


User currently offlinePDPsol From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 1120 posts, RR: 5
Reply 8, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 19797 times:

Quoting IrishAyes (Reply 6):
Secondly, Iberia is the leading carrier between Europe and the South Atlantic. Allegedly, only 8 of IB's 24 long-haul routes are profitable. Although I'm not exactly sure *which* ones those are, I would not be surprised if the majority of those hail from Latin America.
Quoting shuttle9juliet (Reply 4):
But all was not lost as the ugly girl came with benefits, her folks owned a lovely new home in Madrid, and she had relatives in South America..

This is what BA was focused on and it remains a key element to the IAG strategy. No one can deny traffic growth rates in Latin America are strong, in comparison to North America and western Europe.

The IB acquisition had less to do with Spain and more to do with Latin America and the key markets in the region, especially MEX, GRU, EZE, BOG, GIG, LIM, SCL.

It just so happened IB already had a developed route network between these markets in Latin America and MAD. Other European carriers also have decades of experience serving Latin America, but none had a network as extensive to Latin America. One can argue endlessly why IB's network was more developed than, say, LH or, say, AF, or, say, KL, etc...

However, today in 2013, not only is Spain and all of western Europe in the middle of a cataclysmic recession, carriers in Latin America are in the strongest position they have ever found themselves in.

Four carriers in Latin America, TAM, LA, AV and AM, can compete with European carriers. The parent companies of these carriers are publicly traded and trade at high valuation multiples compared to peers in North America and western Europe. LATAM Group trades at 19x P/E 2013, compared to 5.5x for UA and 5x for DL. CM trades at 10x.

In addition, these carriers in Latin America have a very rewarding regional network which is highly profitable compared to their trans-Atlantic routes to Europe. The European carriers do not have this.

If IAG plays its cards right and can restructure IB and continue its leadership position in the Latin America/Europe market, the shareholders of IAG will benefit quite well, thank you.


User currently offlineSASMD82 From Netherlands, joined Mar 2007, 798 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 19728 times:

Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 1):

Sounds similar to KL and AF. Its like the beautiful women (BA and KL) that married the fat ugly slobs (IB and AF).

The problem is that BA, KL and LH (and actually LX as well) serve the same markets (in general). That's why KL was never a serious option for LH and that's why BA and KL failed twice to agree upon a partnership. Both KL and BA are doomed with the large airlines from southern Europe -> AZ, IB and AF. From which I think AF has the least worst performance.

Without any doubt we can't prevent take overs (aka merger) such as the ones in the US in the last decades. They have to occur in Europe too. Simply an economy of scale to protect against the power of FR and U2 who have gained a huge market share in southern Europe. I think there will be no space left for an individual operating carrier of the size LX, IB, KL, TP, AZ, OA etc.

Only four or five big airlines will exist in Europe in 2020. No room for nationality or whatsoever. We are talking about loads of Euros and not about the national flag on a tale.


User currently offlineMaersk737 From Denmark, joined Feb 2004, 717 posts, RR: 1
Reply 10, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 19632 times:

Quoting SASMD82 (Reply 9):
The problem is that BA, KL and LH (and actually LX as well) serve the same markets (in general). That's why KL was never a serious option for LH and that's why BA and KL failed twice to agree upon a partnership. Both KL and BA are doomed with the large airlines from southern Europe -> AZ, IB and AF. From which I think AF has the least worst performance.

Without any doubt we can't prevent take overs (aka merger) such as the ones in the US in the last decades. They have to occur in Europe too. Simply an economy of scale to protect against the power of FR and U2 who have gained a huge market share in southern Europe. I think there will be no space left for an individual operating carrier of the size LX, IB, KL, TP, AZ, OA etc.

  

I have to agree.

Cheers

Peter



I'm not proud to be a Viking, just thankfull
User currently offlineairbazar From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 8658 posts, RR: 10
Reply 11, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 19599 times:

Quoting LHRFlyer (Reply 3):
If you go back three years ago, BA had no scope for growth at LHR and had to look elsewhere and Iberia had a complementary route network. At the time, it was not expected that the Eurozone crisis would be so bad and at least Spain seems to have got through the worst of it with better than expected debt/GDP figures recently.

In addition, IB's problems are cost related, not market related. Their coverage of Latin America, a fast growing market, and brand awareness in that market is second to none. Their MAD hub is vastly superior to LHR and is very well positioned as a TATL and intercontinental hub. If/when IAG can get IB's costs to come down, this company will be very strong. The business case to merge BA and IB is very strong, IF Iberia can get its costs under control.

Quoting IrishAyes (Reply 6):
However, I think it all really boils down to macro factors, which all European network airlines are suffering from. The Spanish and Eurozone economic crisis have impacted all European carriers.

Well, not all. Just like BA and KL, other better managed airlines have reacted better to the European crisis. LH, TP, LX are just some European airlines that not only increased their profits from 2011 but they also grew their business.

Quoting PDPsol (Reply 8):
The IB acquisition had less to do with Spain and more to do with Latin America and the key markets in the region, especially MEX, GRU, EZE, BOG, GIG, LIM, SCL.

  


User currently offlinepanamair From United States of America, joined Oct 2001, 4974 posts, RR: 25
Reply 12, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 19550 times:
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Quoting airbazar (Reply 11):
Their MAD hub is vastly superior to LHR and is very well positioned as a TATL and intercontinental hub.

Geographically speaking, MAD is only well-positioned for Europe-Latin America flows; LHR is a superior hub for North America-Europe traffic flows...


User currently offlineIrishAyes From United States of America, joined Jan 2008, 2241 posts, RR: 15
Reply 13, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 19503 times:

Quoting SASMD82 (Reply 9):
Without any doubt we can't prevent take overs (aka merger) such as the ones in the US in the last decades. They have to occur in Europe too. Simply an economy of scale to protect against the power of FR and U2 who have gained a huge market share in southern Europe. I think there will be no space left for an individual operating carrier of the size LX, IB, KL, TP, AZ, OA etc.

Only four or five big airlines will exist in Europe in 2020. No room for nationality or whatsoever. We are talking about loads of Euros and not about the national flag on a tale.

Honestly, I really have zero idea what the future holds for airlines like SK, EI, LO, AZ and TP. AY may survive on its pan-Asia strategy, also having turned around their short-haul ops, but I wonder if QR joining OW may cause some indirect damage to that plan.

The Gulf Carriers will inevitably play a role in shaping the future for the Big Three. I envision that LH Group and Turkish will grow closer. A lot of existing connections will become unraveled and simultaneously, new relationships and tie-ups will become tangled. It will be interesting to watch.



next flights: jfk-icn, icn-hkg-bkk-cdg, cdg-phl-msp
User currently offlinePDPsol From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 1120 posts, RR: 5
Reply 14, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 19428 times:

Quoting airbazar (Reply 11):
In addition, IB's problems are cost related, not market related. Their coverage of Latin America, a fast growing market, and brand awareness in that market is second to none. Their MAD hub is vastly superior to LHR and is very well positioned as a TATL and intercontinental hub. If/when IAG can get IB's costs to come down, this company will be very strong. The business case to merge BA and IB is very strong, IF Iberia can get its costs under control.

Exactly, exactly, exactly... The strategic opportunity in Latin America for IAG and its carriers is very attractive:

The entire population of western Europe totals 415 million, Latin America is 575 million. The EU GDP is roughly double that of Latin America, so plenty of room for growth. Airbus expects 6% annual passenger traffic in the region over the next 20 years, topping even Asia Pacific.

Again, if IAG plays its cards right with IB, its shareholders will be rather pleased, indeed...

Meanwhile, Europe will continue to experience consolidation in its commercial aviation sector.

European carriers will also realize total integration of their operations, just like merged carriers do here in the United States. All this bluster about brands, 'identity', culture, and rigid labor agreements will disappear...


User currently offlineOA260 From Ireland, joined Nov 2006, 27318 posts, RR: 60
Reply 15, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 19341 times:

Quoting RussianJet (Reply 2):
It is similar. Somehow, though, I feel more sorry for KL than BA. Not sure how accurate my impression is, and it's only an impression - I'm no expert, but it seems that KL is probably at more risk than BA in terms of maintaining their identity and product.

Spot on with that analysis. Very sad state of affairs indeed.


User currently offlineraffik From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2006, 1718 posts, RR: 4
Reply 16, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 19149 times:

Quoting panamair (Reply 7):
IB's long-haul Business product is not bad - they already have flat-beds in J, for example.

Coupled with terrible terrible service.



Happy -go- lucky kinda guy!
User currently offlineRussianJet From Belgium, joined Jul 2007, 7719 posts, RR: 21
Reply 17, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 19053 times:

Quoting OA260 (Reply 15):
Very sad state of affairs indeed.

Seems to be, for sure. Flew AF one way and KL the other to South Africa in December. They were poles apart in terms of experience. I'm guessing the great KL product will be dragged down badly in the future.



✈ Every strike of the hammer is a blow against the enemy. ✈
User currently offlinetheobcman From UK - England, joined Nov 2010, 142 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 18657 times:

Quoting shuttle9juliet (Reply 4):

Basically I think BA were very late in getting married , should have really hitched up with KLM earlier on, but as one member on here commented, they were left with the ugly girl at the school prom.
But all was not lost as the ugly girl came with benefits, her folks owned a lovely new home in Madrid, and she had relatives in South America..


This is absolutely correct & actually really funny ! Made me laugh anyway - cheers


User currently offlineDTW2HYD From United States of America, joined Jan 2013, 2281 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 18024 times:

All legacy European Airlines should merge with LH, leaving only LH and Ryanair.

User currently onlineUALWN From Andorra, joined Jun 2009, 2973 posts, RR: 2
Reply 20, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 18027 times:

Quoting RussianJet (Reply 17):
I'm guessing the great KL product will be dragged down badly in the future.

Why? AF and KL merged already 9 years ago. If it hasn't happened by now...



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User currently offlineawthompson From United Kingdom, joined May 2005, 498 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 17912 times:

Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 1):
Sounds similar to KL and AF. Its like the beautiful women (BA and KL) that married the fat ugly slobs (IB and AF).

Except 'fat' is hardly the word, 'skinny' is perhaps more accurate. Maybe she was fat when they got hitched but she went on a forced diet and is now anorexic  

Apart from BA, I am quite worried about the UK financially as a whole. Government and big companies have made very wrong/damaging moves/mistakes in recent years (ie. selling off Gold reserves/Banks/BP gulf explosion etc etc).

I have spent the earlier part of the evening researching how to open accounts in foreign currencies in an attempt to get what little money I have out of Sterling as it is plummeting against most other currencies. Many experts believe things will get worse and I would like to be able to continue travelling in the future and not be 'trapped' here with a next to useless currency. Maybe watching tonight's Keiser report has been too depressing for me!

Apologies for getting off the topic.


User currently offlineTheAviator380 From UK - England, joined Feb 2013, 440 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 17875 times:

I recently flown on BA (DEL-LHR) 777-200. Very average product to me, honestly. I wasn't happy at all.

User currently offlineIBERIA747 From Spain, joined Aug 2003, 1831 posts, RR: 58
Reply 23, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 17633 times:

Quoting TheAviator380 (Reply 22):
I recently flown on BA (DEL-LHR) 777-200. Very average product to me, honestly.

That has been my experience with BA as well. Never understood all the hype about them.

On the other hand, I've flown about 50 times across the Atlantic on IB (Business and Economy, and quite a few short haul flights too) and my overall experience has always been satisfactory.



¡¡VIVA ESPAÑA!!
User currently offlineTheAviator380 From UK - England, joined Feb 2013, 440 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 17477 times:

Iberia747

Yup,I don't understand all hype about them. I wrote an email to customer services regarding my experience but reply wasn't too impressive either.


25 lychemsa : IBERIA long haul and short haul in the air service was good from Geneva to New York. The only problem is that they cancelled my Madrid to New York fli
26 ecflyer : I spent a week in Barcelona in 2008 or 2009 and I honestly could not understand where the prosperity was coming from. Much of it, it turned out, was d
27 VV701 : I do not disagree. But if you are flying in and out of LHR T5 then the experience can be as good as anywere else in the world. My own view is that th
28 CuriousFlyer : AF is going through rough years but it also has had it good ones. KL voluntarily joined AF after giving it a very long thought, and before that they h
29 TN486 : Seems QF (Alan Joyce) made the right decision some years ago in regards to "merging".
30 Speedbird2155 : This is why you should never believe all of what you read or hear. MAD and IB are the IAG keys to South America. By pushing more traffic through MAD,
31 LHRFlyer : LHR-MAD has 13 flights a day. That's quite a lot and most of Iberia's long-haul departures are in waves rather than spread out through the day. Also,
32 TYCOON : As far as service is concerned (putting aside profitability etc... for the moment), I believe AF is miles ahead of BA and that's a given in my book. I
33 shuttle9juliet : It's actually an A330 now, brand new.
34 Azure : Indeed ! It is really funny to read that AF was an "ugly guy" while it was the most profitable European airline in the early 2000s when the AF/KL "me
35 1400mph : One thing to ponder... When LH group released their results the share price tanked. When AF-KLM released their results the share price tanked. When IA
36 babybus : IB is a dreadful airline but to be honest BA isn't exactly leading the world in terms of in-flight service these days either. Maybe not the awkward ma
37 Post contains images Azure : Another thing to ponder : AFKL share price : roughly + 100 % in 1 year LH group share price : roughly + 50% in 1 year IAG share price : roughly +80%
38 1400mph : Oh well that's a refreshing outlook. No money in South American aviation eh ? I think Latam might have something to say about that ? Projected growth
39 jumpjets : Also IB maintenance facilities in Madrid are doing OK out of the BA fleet repaints/maintenance which I doubt they would have had IAG not come along.
40 Post contains links VV701 : BA never purchased IB. Former IB shareholders received 45 per cent of the equity in the new SPANISH REGISTERED company, International Consolidated Ai
41 jfk777 : BA - KLMwould have been heavenly. Then BA tried Swissair but was only interested in their LHR slots. IB was the last significant airline left to get h
42 airbazar : I was speaking from an operations perspective, primarily. MAD is not slot restricted and does not suffer from the weather and airspace issues that LH
43 1400mph : Yes it would but at the time it was being discussed it was WAY ahead of its time and would have been blocked at every turn as indeed was the case wit
44 Post contains images thowman : I don't think you would say that about you experience in Miami a few years ago when stranded, would you Alfonso? I have flown both trans atlantic to
45 Azure : AFKL market caps is not even worth the price of their 6 A380s, which does not mean this airline is a mess as you previously wrote. The fact their sha
46 1400mph : Any airline that delivers two consecutive billion euro losses is a mess. Before you self combust I am not implying that will always be the case. Mayb
47 VV701 : Yes. But in the current economic climate the short-term perspective is also very important. In tte IAG 2012 Annual Report Willie Walsh is quoted as s
48 UALWN : A Spanish bank that is bankrupt and has had to be rescued by the government...
49 Azure : Not necessarily when its turnover is 25,7 billion euros and when half of its losses come from provisions for restructuring costs.
50 Revelation : I think it's both macro and micro, a weak product in a weak economy. Well, there's this small problem that the EU doesn't hold the bilateral agreemen
51 Post contains links and images IBERIA747 : Hehehehe the good ole' Andy. Long time no see mate!. I think you're starting to forget things!! My experience was positive. Iberia handled the situat
52 Azure : Yes, but the EC can - and does - block any merger that may affect competition (eg the EI/FR merger) Anyway, the European market is already consolidat
53 Post contains links Pihero : What a load of hogwash : The talks failed because it wasn't a merger as KLM seeked, but from BA a takeover: Roy Eddington "...we would be happy if we
54 PDPsol : That is why carriers are evaluated on a Firm value, or Enterprise value, basis, rather than simply equity market capitalization. A very material port
55 Post contains images airbazar : You left out TK and any potential future mergers. I would love to see a TK/TP merger for example. IST is too far East to be a good hub for TATL traff
56 EddieDude : And according to many IB also has great catering in J. However, overall, IB's reputation is terrible. So you might get a comfy J-class seat in long-h
57 jumpjets : That may be the case but it doesn't stop them exercising their votes as IAG shareholders
58 VV701 : Many of the bilateral agreements are between the EU and other nations. The EU-USA Open Skies agreement is a case in point. Some other countries (such
59 PDPsol : Actually, the restructuring situation that BFA/Bankia does absolutely affect their participation in the corporate governance, especially if they have
60 Viscount724 : LX would have been of minimal benefit to BA. Their route networks largely overlapped. On the other hand IB brings all of the rapidly-growing Latin Am
61 JAL : Things will eventually improves for IB and IAG once Europe wakes up from all those cuts and taxes and try to boost their economy!
62 1400mph : Mmm. Europe all the world ? The worlds largest trading block will suck the weakening remaining global economy down with it if it fails. For example w
63 thowman : Yes, my memory is certainly going, but wow, how time goes by very quickly - can't believe it was 9 years ago already. Cheers A
64 AirGabon : 100% agree, people forget facts very easily. AF was very profitable in the 2000s.
65 1400mph : ? Subtract the figure AF received in state aid during this period and then look again.
66 MD11Engineer : I think the profit / loss figures for AF/KLM are missleading. Due to high taxes in France and lower taxes in the Netherlands the company´s accounting
67 Azure : What state aid did AF receive in the 2000s ?! Indeed. The tax rate on corporate profits is 34,3% in France versus 25% in the Netherlands. It is AFKL
68 par13del : How are they able to fly under the radar as tax cheats while companies like Google, Amazon and others are blasted daily by all and sundry, are airlin
69 1400mph : Sorry it was the late 90's AF received £2 BILLION in state aid. Then there was the landing charges debacle for domestic flights in France. Tantamoun
70 VV701 : Google and Amazon secured their low / zero UK tax rates by transfer pricing. They charged their UK subsidiaries high prices for services / product su
71 Pihero : Quote a source when you utter that sort of statement. For your information, the EU forbids it, and have done for thirty years or so. Rubbish. It was
72 Pihero : To come back to the topic : Iberia had been for a long time #1 in Europe for number of transported passengers , confirming the country's position as o
73 airbazar : That's largely overstated and widely misunderstood. There is no mandate for Portugal to sell TP. So much so that the government rejected an offer fro
74 Post contains links 1400mph : http://www.independent.co.uk/news/bu...nd-aviation-subsidies-1416741.html http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2.../12/theairlineindustry.travelnews1 ht
75 1400mph : Yes indeed. I wonder if the hotel, restaurant and bar owners of the Spanish Costas share the sentiment of Iberia workers with their 'British go home'
76 Pihero : What I find extraordinary is you found sources on the state aid for AF, and not one for BA's privatisation, which smacks of, to say the least, biased
77 IndianicWorld : The issues that IAG are currently dealing with are those that numerous airlines will have to overcome in the coming years. Labour issues are becoming
78 FlyCaledonian : What's that got to do with things? Those shares were sold to the public, not given away.
79 Post contains links UALWN : The "British" in the IB workers placards are just a proxy for IAG's management. And, yes, I know WW is Irish. Now, in the costs, on the other hand: h
80 Post contains links VV701 : So where is your source? "Pot", "kettle" and "black" are three words that come to mind. What is really extraordinary is that you expect others to pro
81 anstar : LHR T5 is a HUGE improvement over the other terminals.... but in all reality it lacks space and feels very crowded and cramped at best - especially d
82 jsnww81 : Correct. It's the nicest terminal at Heathrow by a large margin, but it's still a BAA facility, which means circulation and relaxation space was sacr
83 realsim : The merger was quite easy to understand: BA is the largest European airline from Europe to North America, and Iberia is the largest airline from Europ
84 Post contains links Pihero : So, as a matter of fact you confirmed that Thatcher's governement footed a bill of 901 M £ for fleet investment at a time when the company was just
85 1400mph : Look firstly I wish Air France every success. My point is all about timing and that AF seem to have suffered from some sort of time lag within their
86 1400mph : For executive card holders with access to the lounges, Club World and First class passengers travelling frequently to various destinations around the
87 TYCOON : Applause are in order for Pihero for pointing out this oft forgotten fact of UK government subsidies and protectionism of BA as it was being privatize
88 1400mph : No one would disagree with you. However, you point is only valid up until the year 1984. Air France (not KLM before you compare AF-KLM to IAG) is rac
89 TYCOON : 1400mph, I don't see how you have demonstrated that my argument "falls flat" as it still holds... the UK govt has in the past provided financial suppo
90 Post contains images Pihero : Rubbish. The British government protected BA for a much longer time : See the slot allocations at LHR (no airline that wasn't prersent before 1977 wa
91 1400mph : Rather depends on with whom the beneficiary is in competition with and whether the two are governed under the same juristiction.................. How
92 jumpjets : Please, what has this to do with BA-IB merging? If you want to debate who got most subsidies [albeit in some cases 20 years ago] please start a new t
93 1400mph : Mmmm....IB got a damn good deal if you ask me and now their workforce has the effrontery to blame BA for their losses. I like everyone else do not wa
94 TYCOON : 1400mph, I actually agree with you on government support for certain key industries... believe it or not! Markets can solve some problems, but not all
95 1400mph : Well it's all just a mess isn't it. Do we really care at the end of the day how they survive as long as they don't go bust and throw everyone that wo
96 LHRFlyer : In theory, there's nothing preventing IAG from disposing of Iberia (not that there would be willing buyers) or shutting it down (which may feature as
97 1400mph : Yes I do understand that. BA is 'finally' in a strong position I mean lets face it the last 15 years or so have been a nightmare. I just think it is
98 Post contains images r2rho : Exactly! People are overreacting because IB is going through bad times right now, but they are only seeing an instantaneous picture, without the long
99 LHRFlyer : I agree. But it just wouldn't be BA if there wasn't some sort of financial or operational crisis to be dealing with!
100 VV701 : Please be good enough to read what you quoted from my earlier post in your Reply 84. The last seven words from your quote are " . . . BUT NOT ANY OF
101 Pihero : See my post # 84 above. you'll find my argument and my source. I didn't criticize the British government. I was just pointing at some practices which
102 VV701 : Correct. VS could not fly from LHR because the bilateral agreement with the USA signed in 1977 by the previous (Callaghan) government and not by te T
103 Pihero : Please stop twisting the argument : The argument was BA had been protected from any meaningful competition until 1991 when the EU took over renegociat
104 Post contains links VV701 : I did get this wrong. The BD flights in direct competition with BA between LHR and EDI and GLA had actually been in operation for around three years
105 Pihero : your argumentatioin is akin to rerpeating a mantra If the BA- BD accord of 1981 allowing BD to orerate a LPL-LHR service in exchange for lines to AMS
106 Post contains links VV701 : 20,000 BA LHR weekly slots? What is your source? Or is this a number plucked out of the air with no basis in fact? Back in Winter 2003 the total numb
107 Post contains links Pihero : OK,Sorry ! one zero too many. I typed too quick from a French keyboard. Nonetheless, I went searching for some history of BA v VS and finally stumbled
108 Post contains links VV701 : Clearly when you say "But to say, as you do that all was hunky-dory was stretching the truth a little bit" you were, to coin a phrase, "stretching th
109 Post contains images charliecossie : What were BCal playing at, then?
110 Pihero : Thius is ludicrous : Everything you say is about semantics : -LON instead of LGW, which any sane mind would not compare with LHR : proof is VS accepti
111 Post contains links 1400mph : http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/94ef4c7e-8...a0-00144feabdc0.html#axzz2NDDsfGiC This is a bit worrying. I don't know about all this. The Spanish Governement
112 BlueShamu330s : The Spanish Government, or a misguided member of it, can grand stand and drum beat all he wants in the interest of garnering public support. However,
113 1400mph : IB's employees will latch onto this like a dog with a bone and as far as they are concerned the dye has been cast. The level of bad feeling however m
114 Post contains links LHRFlyer : Bloomberg is claiming IAG has accepted the Spanish mediator's proposals: http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-0...posal-in-iberia-labor-dispute.html
115 1400mph : What are they and will they be enough to stem the losses ? (the share price is up today and has held up throughout....)[Edited 2013-03-11 02:05:42][E
116 Bongodog1964 : If the Spanish Govt wish to interfere, they will need to put their hands into their pockets and pay for the inefficiencies. Two problems however, fir
117 1400mph : Maybe but how far are the staff prepared to go and what further losses will be incurred by more damaging strikes ? Will relations between IB staff an
118 LHRFlyer : I don't know the exact detail of the arbitrator's decision but it is still a very significant number of job losses. The unions have to accept the prop
119 Post contains links r2rho : And the unions have agreed "in principle" but will announce their final decision wednesday. 3,141 employees fired (versus 3,807 proposed by IAG), of
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