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Cyprus Airways Dropping A321s - The End?  
User currently offlinehotplane From UK - England, joined Jul 2006, 1064 posts, RR: 0
Posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 13420 times:
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Have just read on www.jethros.org.uk that Monarch are taking the two Cyprus A321 soon. Did CY only have them on short leases or have they decided to get rid of them early? They were only delived in July 2012.


?
72 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinerutankrd From United Kingdom, joined Sep 2003, 3005 posts, RR: 7
Reply 1, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 13265 times:
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Quoting hotplane (Thread starter):
Did CY only have them on short leases or have they decided to get rid of them early? They were only delived in July 2012.

They are seriously and financially embarrassed and need ready cash .

The Nicosia government are in danger of censor/fines if they offer any more direct subsidies.

Expect another LHR slot pair to be sold as well.

Their ventures in mainland Greece aren't doing too well either.

JU068 may have more to say as he spends quite a bit of time in Cyprus and may be able to enlighten the debate.

The 321 might have matched SLF capacity however the valuable box service to Athens and London has tanked and thats cost them.


User currently offlinevasu From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2005, 3916 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 13111 times:

Oh dear, that's not good...

will CY actually survive?


User currently offlineOA260 From Ireland, joined Nov 2006, 27007 posts, RR: 57
Reply 3, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 12240 times:

Quoting rutankrd (Reply 1):
Their ventures in mainland Greece aren't doing too well either.

That's putting it mildly . They are hemorrhaging money on the Greek Domestics and thought they could tap into the market against OA and A3. This has not worked at all.

CY need to look at their fleet as a whole also.


User currently offlineJU068 From Vanuatu, joined Aug 2009, 2643 posts, RR: 6
Reply 4, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 11969 times:
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The restructuring deal isn't going well as now the pilots are refusing to accept the new terms. The airline has way too many employees and their business is extremely seasonal. Though their finances might improve in summer, they burn it all, and much more, during the winter season. Their biggest markets are Greece and the United Kingdom and though Olympic's exit from the Cypriot market might come as good news they still face a lot of competition on the British market. I highly doubt they are able to make money on their London route- even Aegean was forced to switch from Heathrow to Gatwick.

Last week an Airbus delegation flew into Cyprus to meet with the wealthiest man on the island who wants to set up his own airline in Paphos. If this airline is indeed established then Cyprus Airways is as good as dead. This is mostly because the Cypriot government has no cash and no patience to deal with the incompetent management of the airline.

Another reason why I think this airline might be established is because the Cypriot government will not have the funds to sponsor Ryanair's flights any longer.

In conclusion, Cyprus has very little to lose if Cyprus Airways is to go belly up. Aegean has a base in Larnaca which means they would take over the profitable routes, while other carriers would step in to take over what's left of the market.

I think Cyprus Airways is in a helpless position.


User currently offlinegilesdavies From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2003, 3029 posts, RR: 2
Reply 5, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 10796 times:

Sad to see Cyprus Airways struggling so much...

Amazing to think a few years back they were operating the A330 on their bread and butter routes and now struggle to fill an A321 with more or less half the capacity!

If they are still about by the summer, they might have a little more luck on the LHR to LCA route, as BA's timings on the route are awful (in my opinion). Operating the LHR-LCA sector as a night flight and LCA-LHR as a late morning departure. So BA are basically offering very few connections onto the States.

Also it looks like Monarch are pulling out of Larnaca on their scheduled network, from Luton and Gatwick, from November. No flights are bookable, while all their other winter routes are on sale.


User currently onlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 25372 posts, RR: 22
Reply 6, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 10768 times:

Quoting gilesdavies (Reply 5):
Amazing to think a few years back they were operating the A330 on their bread and butter routes

That's a good example of their poor management decisions. They had absolutely no need for a heavy long-range aircraft like the A330 on any of their routes.


User currently offlineJU068 From Vanuatu, joined Aug 2009, 2643 posts, RR: 6
Reply 7, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 10695 times:
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Quoting gilesdavies (Reply 5):
Amazing to think a few years back they were operating the A330 on their bread and butter routes and now struggle to fill an A321 with more or less half the capacity!

They had mostly good loads when they flew their A330s to LHR but the problem was that they needed a loadfactor of at least 85% to break even. In the end, the two A330s were responsible for one half of their annual losses. The acquisition of these aircraft was an epic failure which cost the airline more than they could afford.

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 6):

Exactly. If I remember correctly the introduction of the A330 was a political decision made shortly before Cyprus entered the European Union in 2004. When they had to make the final decision on the replacement of their A310 fleet, they were also considering the B767-300. In my opinion this would have been a wiser choice but... wisdom is not a quality needed to run any state company in Cyprus.

Cyprus Airways should have never acquired anything bigger than an A320!


User currently offlineLuftyMatt From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2009, 428 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 10508 times:

Quoting JU068 (Reply 4):
Another reason why I think this airline might be established is because the Cypriot government will not have the funds to sponsor Ryanair's flights any longer.

Sponsor, as in pay them? If that's what the Cypriot government are doing, why don't they sponsor CY instead?



chase the sun
User currently offlineJU068 From Vanuatu, joined Aug 2009, 2643 posts, RR: 6
Reply 9, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 10316 times:
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Quoting LuftyMatt (Reply 8):

The Cypriot government had struck a deal with Ryanair to launch some routes to Larnaca back in 2010. These included Girona, Charleroi, Weeze and Bologna. Then the government authorities struck another deal with Ryanair for them to open up a base in Paphos.
Since the Cypriot government is on the verge of bankruptcy they could no longer pay for the flights to Larnaca, which naturally resulted in their cancellation. Ryanair demanded €4 million for these routes.

I am confident that once the subsidies run out for their Paphos base they will pack up and leave. That is why I think this new airline stands a chance as they know that Ryanair's days in Paphos are numbered. The businessman had stressed over and over again that it would be a small and efficient airline (my guess is that they will have two A320s). If their Paphos venture proves to be successful I am sure that they will introduce some flights to Larnaca since the market is much bigger there.

Well, the most logical thing would be for the Cypriot government to provide its own national carrier with subsidies especially since most of their aircraft are sitting idle at the airport throughout the winter season. Maybe they thought that they could not do it since it would have been against the European Union regulations. Who knows at this point...


User currently offlineCYatUK From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2006, 810 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 10245 times:

I think that the change of Government last week (to a conservative/centre-right structure) will help push CY to either privatisation or closure.


CY@Uk
User currently offlineJU068 From Vanuatu, joined Aug 2009, 2643 posts, RR: 6
Reply 11, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 10233 times:
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Quoting CYatUK (Reply 10):

Wasn't it Karogian who told some months ago the Cyprus Airways unions that they should either accept the terms or the airline will be closed down?
His party is in power now so it seems promising.


User currently offlineOA260 From Ireland, joined Nov 2006, 27007 posts, RR: 57
Reply 12, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 10137 times:

Quoting gilesdavies (Reply 5):
Amazing to think a few years back they were operating the A330 on their bread and butter routes and now struggle to fill an A321 with more or less half the capacity!

Indeed .

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 6):
They had absolutely no need for a heavy long-range aircraft like the A330 on any of their routes.

Well they did have use for it back in the days of good economic times. Often they were able to fill the seats from May-Oct and then Easter/Xmas so there were few lean periods. Of course thats all changed now and no use for such aircraft hence the exit from the fleet.

Quoting CYatUK (Reply 10):
I think that the change of Government last week (to a conservative/centre-right structure) will help push CY to either privatisation or closure.

We shall see I believe it when I see it. Promises made out of power often lead to the dragging of the feet when it comes to delivering.


User currently offlineIndianicWorld From Australia, joined Jun 2001, 2981 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 10074 times:

Another example of a carrier that does not have the economies of scale to complete in today's ultra competitive environment. Sad to see, but ever so true.

They are better to strike a deal with Aegean to expand their ops in Cyprus and close down the carrier. If it cant be achieved with the existing carrier and unions, try a new approach. I see very little point in trying to start up a new carrier which more than likely will have many similar issues over the coming years with the competitive pressures around.

Many other countries will likely face the same issues in the coming years.


User currently offlineJU068 From Vanuatu, joined Aug 2009, 2643 posts, RR: 6
Reply 14, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 9917 times:
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Quoting IndianicWorld (Reply 13):
They are better to strike a deal with Aegean

Aegean did set up a base some seasons ago with routes to Greece, the United Kingdom and France. This project failed and Aegean was forced to reduce their operations to Greece (Athens and Thessaloniki), London Gatwick and Kiev (from this summer). I am sure that if Cyprus Airways goes bankrupt that they would step in and launch some flights.

Quoting OA260 (Reply 12):

The collapse of the economy was the final blow to the airline. When the A330 was introduced they faced almost no competition to the United Kingdom, so they could afford to increase their fares so as to cover the costs. The first significant competitor was Monarch which launched its own flights from London. Their entry into the market brought down the fares. After Monarch more airlines kept on launching flights and adding destinations leaving Cyprus Airways with no other choice but to sell their own tickets to London for as little as €220 (for a five hour flight), as time went by they were forced to abandon many destinations in the United Kingdom.
The biggest mistake Cyprus Airways made was that it did not adjust itself to the new market trends following Cyprus' entry into the European Union.


User currently onlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 25372 posts, RR: 22
Reply 15, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 9403 times:

Quoting OA260 (Reply 12):
Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 6):
They had absolutely no need for a heavy long-range aircraft like the A330 on any of their routes.

Well they did have use for it back in the days of good economic times. Often they were able to fill the seats from May-Oct and then Easter/Xmas so there were few lean periods. Of course thats all changed now and no use for such aircraft hence the exit from the fleet.

But they didn't need such a heavy long-range aircraft for routes like LCA-LHR. They could have saved a lot in operating costs by leasing some used A300s or 767s with much lower maximum takeoff weights (landing fees are based in MTOW in most of the world). And even an empty A332 is quite a bit heavier so you're flying all that structural weight around for nothing which requires more fuel.


User currently offlineCYatUK From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2006, 810 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 9231 times:

Quoting rutankrd (Reply 1):
hey are seriously and financially embarrassed and need ready cash .

The Nicosia government are in danger of censor/fines if they offer any more direct subsidies.

Expect another LHR slot pair to be sold as well.

Their ventures in mainland Greece aren't doing too well either.

The 321 might have matched SLF capacity however the valuable box service to Athens and London has tanked and thats cost them.

I don't know anything about the A321s but I gathered the following information:

1) Last October CY hired a consulting company (AF/KLM Consulting) to create a restructuring plan on how the airline can be profitable again.

2) The restructuring plan was submitted to the Government and Parliament.

3) Restructuring plan is approved by the Government and Parliament in late 2012 but the Parliament demanded that, in order for the restructuring funds to be approved and released (in installments) the steps set out in the plan need to be followed accurately.

4) One of the steps involves a "closer look" to the fleet and the need to make the company smaller hence this is where the A321s may be involved.



CY@Uk
User currently offlineJU068 From Vanuatu, joined Aug 2009, 2643 posts, RR: 6
Reply 17, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 8655 times:
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I just read that Cyprus Airways recorded a loss of €55,8 million in 2012, up from €23,9 million in 2011. This is really bad.

User currently offlineCYatUK From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2006, 810 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 8601 times:

Quoting JU068 (Reply 17):
I just read that Cyprus Airways recorded a loss of €55,8 million in 2012, up from €23,9 million in 2011. This is really bad.

If I remember correctly last year's results also included income from the sale of 2x A319s and also the exchange of LHR slots with VS so it is likely that the "actual" loss last year was also higher from what is shown.

The truth is that the financial situation of CY is bad and the timing is even worse as it coincides with the economic crisis.

As I said above, a new "right/center-right" Government took over only 6 days ago (last Thursday) and their exact policy on CY remains to be confirmed.

However, their timeless position was that semi-Governmental organisations would work better and more efficiently if privatized and that included CY as well.

My personal opinion is that this year will be a "make or brake" one for CY with the two main alternatives being restructuring&privatization or closure.

Just my   



CY@Uk
User currently offlineraffik From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2006, 1716 posts, RR: 4
Reply 19, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 8427 times:

Terrible news. I have read that Cyprus is very seasonal but it still surprises me that they can't make an A321 work daily into a city like London. Will this flight be transferred to A320s when the 321s are returned or even 319s?

I remember the A310s- didn't CY have two daily flights from LHR at one time with them?

Maybe CY will end up just offering a low far concept with pay for luggage and buy on board to compete with the other no frills airlines that are serving the country



Happy -go- lucky kinda guy!
User currently offlineJU068 From Vanuatu, joined Aug 2009, 2643 posts, RR: 6
Reply 20, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 8339 times:
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Quoting raffik (Reply 19):
I remember the A310s- didn't CY have two daily flights from LHR at one time with them?

If I am not mistaken they used to operate four A310s and they were regular visitors to London Heathrow, Paris and very often in Amsterdam.

If the A321s do leave the fleet then I am sure that Heathrow will be operated by an A320, after all the market is still big enough. I do wonder if leaving Heathrow might make it easier for them, or at least have a daily flights to both Heathrow and Gatwick.



Quoting CYatUK (Reply 18):
If I remember correctly last year's results also included income from the sale of 2x A319s and also the exchange of LHR slots with VS so it is likely that the "actual" loss last year was also higher from what is shown.

Ah yes, that is true. Didn't they also sell some spare engines they had, or am I wrong? By the way, do you know which A319s were sold?


User currently offlineLHRjc From Netherlands, joined Apr 2006, 1964 posts, RR: 20
Reply 21, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 8311 times:

Quoting JU068 (Reply 20):
By the way, do you know which A319s were sold?

5B-DBO & DBP left the fleet last year.

Quoting JU068 (Reply 20):
If the A321s do leave the fleet

There's no "if". They are going to ZB to be based at EMA from May 1st.



"Our 319's are very reliable. They get fixed very quickly."
User currently offlineJU068 From Vanuatu, joined Aug 2009, 2643 posts, RR: 6
Reply 22, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 8273 times:
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Quoting LHRjc (Reply 21):

Great, thanks for the clarification.


User currently offlinerutankrd From United Kingdom, joined Sep 2003, 3005 posts, RR: 7
Reply 23, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 8210 times:
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Quoting LHRjc (Reply 21):
5B-DBO & DBP left the fleet last year.

Both flown to Greenwood Leflore Mississippi to await the man with a wrecking ball and gas axe .


User currently offlineScottB From United States of America, joined Jul 2000, 6769 posts, RR: 32
Reply 24, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 8052 times:

Quoting JU068 (Reply 9):
The businessman had stressed over and over again that it would be a small and efficient airline (my guess is that they will have two A320s). If their Paphos venture proves to be successful I am sure that they will introduce some flights to Larnaca since the market is much bigger there.

"Small and efficient" is easier said than done with airlines. Even absent the typical bloat of a public sector company, there's quite a bit of administrative overhead in running an airline which is expensive when only spread across two aircraft. It would also seem that being narrowly-focused on a seasonal market like Cyprus would pose significant challenges in the low seasons.


25 Post contains images babybus : It's not a good sign if a couple of A321s are too much aircraft. Let's hope they can get their business sorted out.
26 JU068 : Though Paphos is a seasonal market, the Cypriot government, with the help of the European Union, are trying to change that. Some years ago the EU gav
27 OA260 : Indeed . E Jets might be the way to go for them. Also a much smaller and lower cost base. That would apply to the staff and pay scales.
28 JU068 : The European Commission wrote a letter to the minister of transport saying that they breached the EU regulations several times. I guess we all know wh
29 Bongodog1964 : I don't think the seasonality will ever pass. My last visit to Paphos was towards the end of October 2011 , my previous visit was early May afew year
30 JU068 : But these pensioners are the key target, especially those from the Nordic region. I never said that the market will be high yielding, all I said that
31 CYatUK : I agree with you on that however, with mean temperatures at Pafos being +10-15 C above the corresponding ones in the UK, this weather could be ideal
32 JU068 : Unless the European Commission determines that the aid was illegal, then it truly is the end. Personally, I love flying on Cyprus Airways and I alway
33 Bongodog1964 : Completely correct, thats the reason my uncle is there - can't stand the cold. The problem however is that he along with many others retired when pen
34 clydenairways : How about the new C series? I don't think the E Jets would have the range needed for CY but the C series has very long range for it's class.
35 Andy33 : Aegean may well be losing money on the route, but the immediate cause of the switch from Heathrow to Gatwick was the loss of Heathrow slots caused by
36 JU068 : Thank you very much for the clarification, makes sense and I am glad they did not axe the route due to low yields.
37 OA260 : Thats certainly an interesting aircraft that people are watching closely. It could well be the answer to a lot of carriers problems.
38 VCy : As much as i dont like to admit it, i think it is time to just let the carrier go. It's clearly very difficult to bring it back to profitability. I qu
39 Post contains images VCy : Cyprus Airways and Virgin Atlantic are expanding their cooperation with CY codesharing on VS's flights to Manchester, Edinburgh & Aberdeen.. good
40 LAXintl : Like many smaller airlines in Europe are discovering the mismatch is having a legacy airline cost base, while earning revenues like an LCC. There simp
41 Post contains images VCy : some good news.. CY will add Doha to it's network from this summer. Probably some cooperation with Qatar Airways i guess
42 JU068 : If they are still around by then. Do you know how often they will fly to Doha or did they mention anything about a schedule? I fear that the market i
43 Post contains images VCy : true found this on another forum: LCA - DΟΗ 22.30 - 02.00 DΟΗ - LCA 02.55 - 06.40 1,6,7
44 VCy : Also, they are restarting Heraklion, Vienna and Cairo
45 JU068 : But they do fly to Heraklion, it shows that the route is operated twice per week. I think Cairo and Vienna will make more sense once they fix their c
46 Cyba : I wouldn't bet on CY being around during the summer. The chances of it surviving have certainly gone down even further after this weeken'ds developmen
47 Post contains images JU068 : Well at least one positive thing about Cyprus Airways is that even if the government wanted to take 6,7% from their account they can't because there i
48 Cyba : On credit. Like every other business in the country! Overseas CY will probably have bank accounts to pay for fuel, etc. At least it will in London an
49 Post contains links LAXintl : European Commission has barred the Cypriot government from providing any further public support to the airline without prior approval while it assesse
50 JU068 : Well, I guess we all know what this means. Shame really but I guess that Aegean will step in and launch some flights. Well, let's hope that it all en
51 mercure1 : This goes back to bigger problems in Europe. Why every little nation must have expensive airline. With open skies leave doors open and let people come
52 bennett123 : On this issue of seasonality, I recall that Thomsonfly used to lease aircraft to Skyservice off season. Did CY not have the option to do something sim
53 JU068 : The market is big enough for Cyprus to have its own airline. If Cyprus Airways was well run and kept relatively small then it would have been fine. U
54 Post contains images Bongodog1964 : If you have over 100,000 euros in your account its 10%. On 2nd thoughts your probably right that Cyprus Airways will only be liable for 6.7%
55 mercure1 : How big is relatively small ? I think there is a point where being too small is not viable these days as you cant earn enough revenue to cover the st
56 LAXintl : The seasonality certainly does not help. Here are the 2012 numbers for Larnaca and Paphos airports. Jan - 268,440 Feb - 259,087 Mar - 332,808 Apr - 56
57 panais : This data says that CY should be big enough to carry its own share of up to 350,000 passengers per month to Cyprus. CY can purchase old A320s that wi
58 LAXintl : Sure but Cyprus as a nation does not even generate 350,000 passengers a month, 5 months of the year. CY at best maybe can capture 50% of the market. S
59 rutankrd : And that more or less what they had for much of their existence. Nor discussed yet is the fact that CY expansion was very much based on developing a
60 Post contains images BasilFawlty : TOM still leases many 738's to Sunwing each winter. Airlines that lease additional capacity during the winter are airlines such as Canjet, Sunwing, S
61 OA260 : Certainly not good. In the meantime the RAF has loaded EUR1 Million euro onto an aircraft and now on its way to Akrotiri .
62 Bongodog1964 : The data certainly doesn't show that at all. I can only speak for UK , but there's a lot of charter traffic on the likes of Thomson and Thomas Cook w
63 JU068 : On most of its routes (excluding high O&D routes such as Sofia, Greece, the UK...) Cyprus Airways carries the same kind of passengers as Thompson
64 JU068 : Well, I was just told (by a high ranking official) that there is a huge chance for Laiki and the BoC to go bankrupt. If that happens then the whole sy
65 mercure1 : That is terrible. A full service airline enterprise cannot survive earning charter like revenue. Just from the revenue side the entire model for full
66 LAXintl : How about forgetting the entire concept of a national airline, and encourage more LCCs to come set up shop in Cyprus. Give likes of Ryanair, EasyJet,
67 bennett123 : If JU068 is correct, then Cyprus will have little scope to help CY.
68 Viscount724 : Agree. Can a country with a GDP lower than any of the 50 U.S. states really justify maintaining a national carrier? The Cyprus GDP is slightly lower
69 OA260 : Well that's no secret . Media here are even suggesting it. Anything can happen over the next 4-7 days! Lets hope there is a miracle.
70 JU068 : It was reported in the Greek media after the minister of interior said that they might never re-open for business. In the parliament they said that t
71 Post contains links bennett123 : http://cyprusair.com/893,1,0,4445,1714,2-default.aspx Apparently there have been (false) rumours about reductions in services to Russia. However, give
72 Post contains links bennett123 : http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-21920068 It is not clear if Cyprus Airways can cope with a cash economy. Especially, if people can only draw E100 a
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