hotplane From UK - England, joined Jul 2006, 783 posts, RR: 0 Posted (2 months 3 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 12006 times:
Have just read on www.jethros.org.uk that Monarch are taking the two Cyprus A321 soon. Did CY only have them on short leases or have they decided to get rid of them early? They were only delived in July 2012.
rutankrd From United Kingdom, joined Sep 2003, 1997 posts, RR: 5 Reply 1, posted (2 months 3 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 11849 times:
Quoting hotplane (Thread starter): Did CY only have them on short leases or have they decided to get rid of them early? They were only delived in July 2012.
They are seriously and financially embarrassed and need ready cash .
The Nicosia government are in danger of censor/fines if they offer any more direct subsidies.
Expect another LHR slot pair to be sold as well.
Their ventures in mainland Greece aren't doing too well either.
JU068 may have more to say as he spends quite a bit of time in Cyprus and may be able to enlighten the debate.
The 321 might have matched SLF capacity however the valuable box service to Athens and London has tanked and thats cost them.
OA260 From Ireland, joined Nov 2006, 24894 posts, RR: 60 Reply 3, posted (2 months 2 weeks 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 10826 times:
Quoting rutankrd (Reply 1): Their ventures in mainland Greece aren't doing too well either.
That's putting it mildly . They are hemorrhaging money on the Greek Domestics and thought they could tap into the market against OA and A3. This has not worked at all.
JU068 From Serbia, joined Aug 2009, 2579 posts, RR: 6 Reply 4, posted (2 months 2 weeks 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 10555 times:
The restructuring deal isn't going well as now the pilots are refusing to accept the new terms. The airline has way too many employees and their business is extremely seasonal. Though their finances might improve in summer, they burn it all, and much more, during the winter season. Their biggest markets are Greece and the United Kingdom and though Olympic's exit from the Cypriot market might come as good news they still face a lot of competition on the British market. I highly doubt they are able to make money on their London route- even Aegean was forced to switch from Heathrow to Gatwick.
Last week an Airbus delegation flew into Cyprus to meet with the wealthiest man on the island who wants to set up his own airline in Paphos. If this airline is indeed established then Cyprus Airways is as good as dead. This is mostly because the Cypriot government has no cash and no patience to deal with the incompetent management of the airline.
Another reason why I think this airline might be established is because the Cypriot government will not have the funds to sponsor Ryanair's flights any longer.
In conclusion, Cyprus has very little to lose if Cyprus Airways is to go belly up. Aegean has a base in Larnaca which means they would take over the profitable routes, while other carriers would step in to take over what's left of the market.
gilesdavies From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2003, 2882 posts, RR: 1 Reply 5, posted (2 months 2 weeks 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 9382 times:
Sad to see Cyprus Airways struggling so much...
Amazing to think a few years back they were operating the A330 on their bread and butter routes and now struggle to fill an A321 with more or less half the capacity!
If they are still about by the summer, they might have a little more luck on the LHR to LCA route, as BA's timings on the route are awful (in my opinion). Operating the LHR-LCA sector as a night flight and LCA-LHR as a late morning departure. So BA are basically offering very few connections onto the States.
Also it looks like Monarch are pulling out of Larnaca on their scheduled network, from Luton and Gatwick, from November. No flights are bookable, while all their other winter routes are on sale.
Viscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 21483 posts, RR: 24 Reply 6, posted (2 months 2 weeks 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 9354 times:
Quoting gilesdavies (Reply 5): Amazing to think a few years back they were operating the A330 on their bread and butter routes
That's a good example of their poor management decisions. They had absolutely no need for a heavy long-range aircraft like the A330 on any of their routes.
JU068 From Serbia, joined Aug 2009, 2579 posts, RR: 6 Reply 7, posted (2 months 2 weeks 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 9281 times:
Quoting gilesdavies (Reply 5): Amazing to think a few years back they were operating the A330 on their bread and butter routes and now struggle to fill an A321 with more or less half the capacity!
They had mostly good loads when they flew their A330s to LHR but the problem was that they needed a loadfactor of at least 85% to break even. In the end, the two A330s were responsible for one half of their annual losses. The acquisition of these aircraft was an epic failure which cost the airline more than they could afford.
Exactly. If I remember correctly the introduction of the A330 was a political decision made shortly before Cyprus entered the European Union in 2004. When they had to make the final decision on the replacement of their A310 fleet, they were also considering the B767-300. In my opinion this would have been a wiser choice but... wisdom is not a quality needed to run any state company in Cyprus.
Cyprus Airways should have never acquired anything bigger than an A320!
LuftyMatt From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2009, 372 posts, RR: 0 Reply 8, posted (2 months 2 weeks 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 9094 times:
Quoting JU068 (Reply 4): Another reason why I think this airline might be established is because the Cypriot government will not have the funds to sponsor Ryanair's flights any longer.
Sponsor, as in pay them? If that's what the Cypriot government are doing, why don't they sponsor CY instead?
The Cypriot government had struck a deal with Ryanair to launch some routes to Larnaca back in 2010. These included Girona, Charleroi, Weeze and Bologna. Then the government authorities struck another deal with Ryanair for them to open up a base in Paphos.
Since the Cypriot government is on the verge of bankruptcy they could no longer pay for the flights to Larnaca, which naturally resulted in their cancellation. Ryanair demanded €4 million for these routes.
I am confident that once the subsidies run out for their Paphos base they will pack up and leave. That is why I think this new airline stands a chance as they know that Ryanair's days in Paphos are numbered. The businessman had stressed over and over again that it would be a small and efficient airline (my guess is that they will have two A320s). If their Paphos venture proves to be successful I am sure that they will introduce some flights to Larnaca since the market is much bigger there.
Well, the most logical thing would be for the Cypriot government to provide its own national carrier with subsidies especially since most of their aircraft are sitting idle at the airport throughout the winter season. Maybe they thought that they could not do it since it would have been against the European Union regulations. Who knows at this point...
Wasn't it Karogian who told some months ago the Cyprus Airways unions that they should either accept the terms or the airline will be closed down?
His party is in power now so it seems promising.
OA260 From Ireland, joined Nov 2006, 24894 posts, RR: 60 Reply 12, posted (2 months 2 weeks 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 8723 times:
Quoting gilesdavies (Reply 5): Amazing to think a few years back they were operating the A330 on their bread and butter routes and now struggle to fill an A321 with more or less half the capacity!
Indeed .
Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 6): They had absolutely no need for a heavy long-range aircraft like the A330 on any of their routes.
Well they did have use for it back in the days of good economic times. Often they were able to fill the seats from May-Oct and then Easter/Xmas so there were few lean periods. Of course thats all changed now and no use for such aircraft hence the exit from the fleet.
Quoting CYatUK (Reply 10): I think that the change of Government last week (to a conservative/centre-right structure) will help push CY to either privatisation or closure.
We shall see I believe it when I see it. Promises made out of power often lead to the dragging of the feet when it comes to delivering.
IndianicWorld From Australia, joined Jun 2001, 2403 posts, RR: 0 Reply 13, posted (2 months 2 weeks 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 8660 times:
Another example of a carrier that does not have the economies of scale to complete in today's ultra competitive environment. Sad to see, but ever so true.
They are better to strike a deal with Aegean to expand their ops in Cyprus and close down the carrier. If it cant be achieved with the existing carrier and unions, try a new approach. I see very little point in trying to start up a new carrier which more than likely will have many similar issues over the coming years with the competitive pressures around.
Many other countries will likely face the same issues in the coming years.
Aegean did set up a base some seasons ago with routes to Greece, the United Kingdom and France. This project failed and Aegean was forced to reduce their operations to Greece (Athens and Thessaloniki), London Gatwick and Kiev (from this summer). I am sure that if Cyprus Airways goes bankrupt that they would step in and launch some flights.
The collapse of the economy was the final blow to the airline. When the A330 was introduced they faced almost no competition to the United Kingdom, so they could afford to increase their fares so as to cover the costs. The first significant competitor was Monarch which launched its own flights from London. Their entry into the market brought down the fares. After Monarch more airlines kept on launching flights and adding destinations leaving Cyprus Airways with no other choice but to sell their own tickets to London for as little as €220 (for a five hour flight), as time went by they were forced to abandon many destinations in the United Kingdom.
The biggest mistake Cyprus Airways made was that it did not adjust itself to the new market trends following Cyprus' entry into the European Union.
Viscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 21483 posts, RR: 24 Reply 15, posted (2 months 2 weeks 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 7989 times:
Quoting OA260 (Reply 12): Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 6):
They had absolutely no need for a heavy long-range aircraft like the A330 on any of their routes.
Well they did have use for it back in the days of good economic times. Often they were able to fill the seats from May-Oct and then Easter/Xmas so there were few lean periods. Of course thats all changed now and no use for such aircraft hence the exit from the fleet.
But they didn't need such a heavy long-range aircraft for routes like LCA-LHR. They could have saved a lot in operating costs by leasing some used A300s or 767s with much lower maximum takeoff weights (landing fees are based in MTOW in most of the world). And even an empty A332 is quite a bit heavier so you're flying all that structural weight around for nothing which requires more fuel.
CYatUK From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2006, 804 posts, RR: 0 Reply 16, posted (2 months 2 weeks 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 7817 times:
Quoting rutankrd (Reply 1): hey are seriously and financially embarrassed and need ready cash .
The Nicosia government are in danger of censor/fines if they offer any more direct subsidies.
Expect another LHR slot pair to be sold as well.
Their ventures in mainland Greece aren't doing too well either.
The 321 might have matched SLF capacity however the valuable box service to Athens and London has tanked and thats cost them.
I don't know anything about the A321s but I gathered the following information:
1) Last October CY hired a consulting company (AF/KLM Consulting) to create a restructuring plan on how the airline can be profitable again.
2) The restructuring plan was submitted to the Government and Parliament.
3) Restructuring plan is approved by the Government and Parliament in late 2012 but the Parliament demanded that, in order for the restructuring funds to be approved and released (in installments) the steps set out in the plan need to be followed accurately.
4) One of the steps involves a "closer look" to the fleet and the need to make the company smaller hence this is where the A321s may be involved.
CYatUK From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2006, 804 posts, RR: 0 Reply 18, posted (2 months 2 weeks 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 7187 times:
Quoting JU068 (Reply 17): I just read that Cyprus Airways recorded a loss of €55,8 million in 2012, up from €23,9 million in 2011. This is really bad.
If I remember correctly last year's results also included income from the sale of 2x A319s and also the exchange of LHR slots with VS so it is likely that the "actual" loss last year was also higher from what is shown.
The truth is that the financial situation of CY is bad and the timing is even worse as it coincides with the economic crisis.
As I said above, a new "right/center-right" Government took over only 6 days ago (last Thursday) and their exact policy on CY remains to be confirmed.
However, their timeless position was that semi-Governmental organisations would work better and more efficiently if privatized and that included CY as well.
My personal opinion is that this year will be a "make or brake" one for CY with the two main alternatives being restructuring&privatization or closure.
raffik From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2006, 1644 posts, RR: 4 Reply 19, posted (2 months 2 weeks 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 7013 times:
Terrible news. I have read that Cyprus is very seasonal but it still surprises me that they can't make an A321 work daily into a city like London. Will this flight be transferred to A320s when the 321s are returned or even 319s?
I remember the A310s- didn't CY have two daily flights from LHR at one time with them?
Maybe CY will end up just offering a low far concept with pay for luggage and buy on board to compete with the other no frills airlines that are serving the country
JU068 From Serbia, joined Aug 2009, 2579 posts, RR: 6 Reply 20, posted (2 months 2 weeks 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 6925 times:
Quoting raffik (Reply 19): I remember the A310s- didn't CY have two daily flights from LHR at one time with them?
If I am not mistaken they used to operate four A310s and they were regular visitors to London Heathrow, Paris and very often in Amsterdam.
If the A321s do leave the fleet then I am sure that Heathrow will be operated by an A320, after all the market is still big enough. I do wonder if leaving Heathrow might make it easier for them, or at least have a daily flights to both Heathrow and Gatwick.
Quoting CYatUK (Reply 18): If I remember correctly last year's results also included income from the sale of 2x A319s and also the exchange of LHR slots with VS so it is likely that the "actual" loss last year was also higher from what is shown.
Ah yes, that is true. Didn't they also sell some spare engines they had, or am I wrong? By the way, do you know which A319s were sold?
ScottB From United States of America, joined Jul 2000, 6361 posts, RR: 34 Reply 24, posted (2 months 2 weeks 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 6638 times:
Quoting JU068 (Reply 9): The businessman had stressed over and over again that it would be a small and efficient airline (my guess is that they will have two A320s). If their Paphos venture proves to be successful I am sure that they will introduce some flights to Larnaca since the market is much bigger there.
"Small and efficient" is easier said than done with airlines. Even absent the typical bloat of a public sector company, there's quite a bit of administrative overhead in running an airline which is expensive when only spread across two aircraft. It would also seem that being narrowly-focused on a seasonal market like Cyprus would pose significant challenges in the low seasons.
Though Paphos is a seasonal market, the Cypriot government, with the help of the European Union, are trying to change that. Some years ago the EU gave a large sum of money to bring elderly Europeans to Paphos during the winter months. If I am not mistaken the programme was called 55+ where Europeans aged over 55 would pay only €250 for a package holiday in Paphos (the rest was paid by the European Union). Ryanair was the airline who got the deal and shortly after that they announced the launch of their flights to Larnaca.
What I am trying to say is that this seasonality will pass and which ever airline is there when it happens will make a lot of money. Mind you, Ryanair carried 650,000 passengers out of Cypriot airports last year- not bad at all.
JU068 From Serbia, joined Aug 2009, 2579 posts, RR: 6 Reply 28, posted (2 months 2 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 6480 times:
The European Commission wrote a letter to the minister of transport saying that they breached the EU regulations several times. I guess we all know what this means...
Bongodog1964 From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2006, 3018 posts, RR: 2 Reply 29, posted (2 months 2 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 6437 times:
Quoting JU068 (Reply 26): What I am trying to say is that this seasonality will pass and which ever airline is there when it happens will make a lot of money
I don't think the seasonality will ever pass. My last visit to Paphos was towards the end of October 2011 , my previous visit was early May afew years earlier. Neither trip could be described as hot.merely warm. On speaking to my uncle who lives there permanantly the weather on both occasions was normal for the time of year. Yes the winter is mild compared to almost all, if not all of Europe, but its not lay on the beach/round the pool waether. This will always restrict winter visitors to mainly budget holidaying pensioners.
But these pensioners are the key target, especially those from the Nordic region. I never said that the market will be high yielding, all I said that they are trying to build up a market. Beggars can't be choosers, so Paphos will be happy to have more people during the winter months even if they are budget holidaying pensioners. I guess because of that Ryanair is the most suitable carrier to operate out of Paphos.
CYatUK From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2006, 804 posts, RR: 0 Reply 31, posted (2 months 2 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 6278 times:
Quoting Bongodog1964 (Reply 29): I don't think the seasonality will ever pass. My last visit to Paphos was towards the end of October 2011 , my previous visit was early May afew years earlier. Neither trip could be described as hot.merely warm. On speaking to my uncle who lives there permanantly the weather on both occasions was normal for the time of year. Yes the winter is mild compared to almost all, if not all of Europe, but its not lay on the beach/round the pool waether. This will always restrict winter visitors to mainly budget holidaying pensioners.
I agree with you on that however, with mean temperatures at Pafos being +10-15 C above the corresponding ones in the UK, this weather could be ideal for pensioners and people who are not looking for a beach/pool holiday.
In any case, it is a fact that tourism in Cyprus is seasonal (Apri-October) and that there is a lot of work to be done in order for the situation to change (conference centers, casinos, etc).
Coming back to the subject, the situation at CY is extremely difficult and no one knows what the outcome will be. As I said above, the general position of the main Parties supporting the Government is that privatization is the only way forward but even in this case, the Company needs to be made attractive to potential buyers before it is sold.
JU068 From Serbia, joined Aug 2009, 2579 posts, RR: 6 Reply 32, posted (2 months 2 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 6214 times:
Quoting CYatUK (Reply 31): Coming back to the subject, the situation at CY is extremely difficult and no one knows what the outcome will be. As I said above, the general position of the main Parties supporting the Government is that privatization is the only way forward but even in this case, the Company needs to be made attractive to potential buyers before it is sold.
Unless the European Commission determines that the aid was illegal, then it truly is the end. Personally, I love flying on Cyprus Airways and I always had pleasant experiences, I would hate to see them go.
Bongodog1964 From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2006, 3018 posts, RR: 2 Reply 33, posted (2 months 2 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 6208 times:
Quoting CYatUK (Reply 31): I agree with you on that however, with mean temperatures at Pafos being 10-15 C above the corresponding ones in the UK, this weather could be ideal for pensioners and people who are not looking for a beach/pool holiday.
Completely correct, thats the reason my uncle is there - can't stand the cold. The problem however is that he along with many others retired when pension payouts were far better than they are now, plus British retirees could easily cash in their UK property gains in order to finance a Cyprus villa. Money is far harder to come by now. Its now over a year since I visited Cyprus, and I hope for the locals sake that things are picking up, as construction had more or less ground to a halt when I was there and even McDonalds had shut down.
clydenairways From Ireland, joined Jan 2007, 998 posts, RR: 0 Reply 34, posted (2 months 2 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 5797 times:
Quoting OA260 (Reply 27): Indeed . E Jets might be the way to go for them. Also a much smaller and lower cost base. That would apply to the staff and pay scales.
How about the new C series? I don't think the E Jets would have the range needed for CY but the C series has very long range for it's class.
Andy33 From United Kingdom, joined Sep 2009, 25 posts, RR: 0 Reply 35, posted (2 months 2 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 5719 times:
Quoting JU068 (Reply 4): I highly doubt they are able to make money on their London route- even Aegean was forced to switch from Heathrow to Gatwick.
Aegean may well be losing money on the route, but the immediate cause of the switch from Heathrow to Gatwick was the loss of Heathrow slots caused by the BA purchase of BMI. Aegean originally had 2 slots leased from BMI, then they acquired 3 slots from OA. They used some of the pooled slots for Larnaca and the majority for Athens. As from the end of the winter timetable the leased slots revert to BA, leaving only the three ex-OA ones They can't operate a viable service to both Athens and Larnaca with just 3 slots, so after trying one Athens service from Gatwick they've settled on ATH from LHR and LCA from LGW
OA260 From Ireland, joined Nov 2006, 24894 posts, RR: 60 Reply 37, posted (2 months 2 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 5548 times:
Quoting clydenairways (Reply 34): How about the new C series? I don't think the E Jets would have the range needed for CY but the C series has very long range for it's class.
Thats certainly an interesting aircraft that people are watching closely. It could well be the answer to a lot of carriers problems.
VCy From Cyprus, joined Dec 2012, 203 posts, RR: 0 Reply 38, posted (2 months 2 weeks ago) and read 5243 times:
As much as i dont like to admit it, i think it is time to just let the carrier go.
It's clearly very difficult to bring it back to profitability. I questioned many times things that were going on with the airline, which i found unreasonable. For example, no flights to Spain, which is crazy considering the huge demand. Also, since you have the a330, why not deploy it on a long haul route and connect passengers through an extensive middle eastern/southern european network (which they never achieved, in my opinion) ?
Transit passengers would have successful if they managed to promote it correctly. Their onboard product was very good in my opinion, so there is no real disadvantage to using them, plus LCA is usually very quiet in comparison with other airports.
but its too late now. either a new airline can start from the beginning on Aegean could take over all the routes, plus maybe start long haul from Athens with the extra demand from Cyprus.
LAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 22030 posts, RR: 51 Reply 40, posted (2 months 1 week 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 4669 times:
Like many smaller airlines in Europe are discovering the mismatch is having a legacy airline cost base, while earning revenues like an LCC.
There simply is too many decades of overhead fat (too many staff, too many perks, facilities, etc) that needs to be trimmed for there to be even a remote chance of profit at CY.
CY is simply too bloated chasing after bargain basement passengers in a traditional tourist market.
If anything the concept for Eurocypria was better for Cyprus with a fleet of high density aircraft operating a bit more like a LCC/charter operation. Of course that got side tracked and destroyed also in the mess of CY.
Quoting VCy (Reply 38): Also, since you have the a330, why not deploy it on a long haul route and connect passengers through an extensive middle eastern/southern european network (which they never achieved, in my opinion) ?
Transit passengers would have successful if they managed to promote it correctly. Their onboard product was very good in my opinion, so there is no real disadvantage to using them, plus LCA is usually very quiet in comparison with other airports.
CY is way too small of an operation to gain any traction in such a game. With a pair of A330s you wont be able more than a couple long routes routes and even then rather low frequency.
For a proper hub, you would need a significantly larger fleet and denser network. Look at OA it could not do it at ATH, and look at RJ today at AMM. Its been largely relegated to deep discounting to get traffic on its low frequency services. Not a model for success.
The transit game belongs to the much stronger and established players that have control of capacity and pricing.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
If they are still around by then. Do you know how often they will fly to Doha or did they mention anything about a schedule?
I fear that the market is already saturated with a daily Emirates flight and a few weekly flights by Etihad (not to mention other carriers such as Egypt Air, Royal Jordanian, Gulf Air...).
But they do fly to Heraklion, it shows that the route is operated twice per week.
I think Cairo and Vienna will make more sense once they fix their cost structure. I am happy they are returning to Cairo because the market from Cyprus is large and they were forced out by Egypt Air which offered competitive fares.
I see that they have published the schedule for Vienna:
Larnaca-Vienna will be operated on Thursdays and Saturdays.
Flights will be operated by A319s and they cost roughly €255. I guess they are going to be selling seats to the tour operators and they will also try to capture the relatively large Cyprus-Bratislava market.
Mind you, the last time they operated this flight the fares were well over €300, almost €400!
Cyba From Liberia, joined Nov 2005, 198 posts, RR: 0 Reply 46, posted (2 months 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 3758 times:
I wouldn't bet on CY being around during the summer. The chances of it surviving have certainly gone down even further after this weeken'ds developments.
JU068 From Serbia, joined Aug 2009, 2579 posts, RR: 6 Reply 47, posted (2 months 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 3755 times:
Well at least one positive thing about Cyprus Airways is that even if the government wanted to take 6,7% from their account they can't because there is nothing.
On a more serious note, if the bank will be closed until the vote on Wednesday, how will Cyprus Airways pay for the services?
Cyba From Liberia, joined Nov 2005, 198 posts, RR: 0 Reply 48, posted (2 months 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 3535 times:
Quoting JU068 (Reply 47): how will Cyprus Airways pay for the services?
On credit. Like every other business in the country! Overseas CY will probably have bank accounts to pay for fuel, etc. At least it will in London and Athens. So the enforced bank holiday, so long as it only lasts a couple of days shouldn't impact the company directly.
The bank holiday btw will impact every company in Cyprus, including the airports, fuel providers, airlines etc.
LAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 22030 posts, RR: 51 Reply 49, posted (2 months 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 3499 times:
European Commission has barred the Cypriot government from providing any further public support to the airline without prior approval while it assesses whether a €31.3 million capital increase and €73 million rescue aid loan fall outside of European law.
“At this stage, the Commission has doubts that the capital increase was made on market terms."
mercure1 From French Polynesia, joined Jul 2008, 604 posts, RR: 2 Reply 51, posted (2 months 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 3237 times:
This goes back to bigger problems in Europe.
Why every little nation must have expensive airline. With open skies leave doors open and let people come.
Cyprus is a so-so market, not very big. Can probably be served well by other airlines plus charters. Not require its own airline enterprise and supporting organizations.
The market is big enough for Cyprus to have its own airline. If Cyprus Airways was well run and kept relatively small then it would have been fine. Unfortunately politically appointed megalomaniacs were not aware of this.
Bongodog1964 From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2006, 3018 posts, RR: 2 Reply 54, posted (2 months 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 3106 times:
Quoting JU068 (Reply 47): Well at least one positive thing about Cyprus Airways is that even if the government wanted to take 6,7% from their account they can't because there is nothing.
If you have over 100,000 euros in your account its 10%. On 2nd thoughts your probably right that Cyprus Airways will only be liable for 6.7%
mercure1 From French Polynesia, joined Jul 2008, 604 posts, RR: 2 Reply 55, posted (2 months 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 3074 times:
Quoting JU068 (Reply 53): The market is big enough for Cyprus to have its own airline. If Cyprus Airways was well run and kept relatively small then it would have been fine. Unfortunately politically appointed megalomaniacs were not aware of this.
How big is relatively small ?
I think there is a point where being too small is not viable these days as you cant earn enough revenue to cover the structural overhead of an enterprise.
Also does not help that Cyprus is hardly a high yielding place. You are mostly chasing after tourist and the local diaspora where price is king.
Plus it does not help, that Cyprus no matter how much they might try is a very seasonal market. So maybe in the summer you can keep your fleet occupied, but what happens the other times?
LAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 22030 posts, RR: 51 Reply 56, posted (2 months 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 3049 times:
The seasonality certainly does not help.
Here are the 2012 numbers for Larnaca and Paphos airports.
Jan - 268,440
Feb - 259,087
Mar - 332,808
Apr - 568,876
May - 705,240
Jun - 862,874
Jul - 998,454
Aug - 1,045,916
Sep - 918,102
Oct - 813,618
Nov - 358,830
Dec - 276,776
Its kinda crazy to consider the peak month sees 4 times the amount of activity a slower month does, and that a 4-month summer period accounts for more than half of the annual traffic.
Certainly very inconsistent traffic flows to build a full time airline around.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
panais From Cyprus, joined May 2008, 380 posts, RR: 0 Reply 57, posted (2 months 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 2791 times:
Quoting LAXintl (Reply 56): Jan - 268,440
Feb - 259,087
Mar - 332,808
Apr - 568,876
May - 705,240
Jun - 862,874
Jul - 998,454
Aug - 1,045,916
Sep - 918,102
Oct - 813,618
Nov - 358,830
Dec - 276,776
This data says that CY should be big enough to carry its own share of up to 350,000 passengers per month to Cyprus.
CY can purchase old A320s that will be rarely used during winter and somehow used during summer. CY has one of the best A320 technical shops.
LAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 22030 posts, RR: 51 Reply 58, posted (2 months 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 2785 times:
Sure but Cyprus as a nation does not even generate 350,000 passengers a month, 5 months of the year.
CY at best maybe can capture 50% of the market. So in the slow period that means 130-140,000 month.
A 3-4 airplane fleet that can generate that that capacity on a monthly basis.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
rutankrd From United Kingdom, joined Sep 2003, 1997 posts, RR: 5 Reply 59, posted (2 months 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 2742 times:
Quoting LAXintl (Reply 58): CY at best maybe can capture 50% of the market. So in the slow period that means 130-140,000 month.
A 3-4 airplane fleet that can generate that that capacity on a monthly basis.
And that more or less what they had for much of their existence.
Nor discussed yet is the fact that CY expansion was very much based on developing a mini hub between Europe and Middle East.
The Arab Spring, Massive THY growth and the ME3 carriers put paid to that !
So they moved capacity into mainland Greece and we know where that's lead them.
So they make friends with Russia and open flights to St Petersburg and Moscow - But oh the direct routing are closed to them (can't over fly Turkey) and for sure the Roubles will draining away later this week.
EU investigating subsidy including the fuel subsidy provided because of exclusion from Turkish airspace.
Disappointing through it is they are a very troubled and sick business.
BasilFawlty From Netherlands, joined Jun 2009, 1254 posts, RR: 1 Reply 60, posted (2 months 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 2752 times:
Quoting bennett123 (Reply 52): On this issue of seasonality, I recall that Thomsonfly used to lease aircraft to Skyservice off season.
TOM still leases many 738's to Sunwing each winter.
Quoting bennett123 (Reply 52): Did CY not have the option to do something similar, with an airline whose peak period is during the winter, (for example Ski flights).
Airlines that lease additional capacity during the winter are airlines such as Canjet, Sunwing, Sun Country, Aeromexico, Caribbean Airlines, they're all Boeing operators, they don't want Airbusses. Another problem would be the configuration, CY has C/Y configurations on all it's aircraft, aircraft in all Y are much easier to lease out and much more wanted.
'Every year donkeys and mules kill more people than plane crashes'
OA260 From Ireland, joined Nov 2006, 24894 posts, RR: 60 Reply 61, posted (2 months 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 2605 times:
Quoting Bongodog1964 (Reply 54): If you have over 100,000 euros in your account its 10%. On 2nd thoughts your probably right that Cyprus Airways will only be liable for 6.7%
Certainly not good. In the meantime the RAF has loaded EUR1 Million euro onto an aircraft and now on its way to Akrotiri .
Bongodog1964 From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2006, 3018 posts, RR: 2 Reply 62, posted (2 months 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 2485 times:
Quoting panais (Reply 57): This data says that CY should be big enough to carry its own share of up to 350,000 passengers per month to Cyprus.
The data certainly doesn't show that at all.
I can only speak for UK , but there's a lot of charter traffic on the likes of Thomson and Thomas Cook with the flights sold as part of inclusive holidays, CY has no chance of this traffic, Then there's FR, U2 and Jet2 offering low cost fares from regional airports, once again little opportunity for CY.
Then there's the problem of the huge monthly variation in traffic. If CY trieed to get a high % of the summer traffic they would have a huge over capacity in the winter.
On most of its routes (excluding high O&D routes such as Sofia, Greece, the UK...) Cyprus Airways carries the same kind of passengers as Thompson, Thomas Cook... If you fly on routes such as Amsterdam or Zurich you will see that 98% of the seats purchased are by holiday agencies.
Quoting rutankrd (Reply 59): So they make friends with Russia and open flights to St Petersburg and Moscow
Cyprus and Russia were always friends and Cyprus Airways used to fly to Moscow for a long time now.St. Petersburg was operated by Eurocypria and Cyprus Airways entered the market only when they went belly up. There is a huge market between Cyprus and Russia since there are quite a lot of Russians living here but also the number of Russian holidaymakers has been increasing over the last couple of years. In 2012 there were roughly 500,000 Russian tourists visiting the island. The only problem for Cyprus Airways is that it can't fly directly to Russia because Turkey is in the way.
Quoting rutankrd (Reply 59): EU investigating subsidy including the fuel subsidy provided because of exclusion from Turkish airspace.
Are you sure the investigation also includes the subsidies given because they can't overfly Turkey? I thought the European Union was ok with it and that there was a deal.
Quoting LAXintl (Reply 58): A 3-4 airplane fleet that can generate that that capacity on a monthly basis.
That's how Cyprus Airways should have been organized from the start. Unfortunately most governments used it as an employment agency while planes were purchased without considering the seasonality of the market.
I always said that it is a bad thing Cyprus Airways doesn't have any turboprop aircraft. Dash-8 could be a brilliant aircraft for them to serve regional routes such as Damascus, Beirut, Tel Aviv, Cairo, Amman, Heraklion, Rhodes...
Currently all these routes (that have not been suspended) are operated by their Airbus aircraft. I am sure that a turboprop would have been far more efficient on a 17 minute hop to Beirut than an Airbus.
In order to meet the growing seasonal demand Cyprus Airways could have one or two extra aircraft in its fleet that it could park at Paphos airport throughout the winter while it could hire seasonal staff so as to reduce costs. After all, this model works just fine for Ryanair.
JU068 From Serbia, joined Aug 2009, 2579 posts, RR: 6 Reply 64, posted (2 months 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 2097 times:
Well, I was just told (by a high ranking official) that there is a huge chance for Laiki and the BoC to go bankrupt. If that happens then the whole system will collapse taking CY with it.
mercure1 From French Polynesia, joined Jul 2008, 604 posts, RR: 2 Reply 65, posted (2 months 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 1999 times:
Quoting JU068 (Reply 63): On most of its routes (excluding high O&D routes such as Sofia, Greece, the UK...) Cyprus Airways carries the same kind of passengers as Thompson, Thomas Cook... If you fly on routes such as Amsterdam or Zurich you will see that 98% of the seats purchased are by holiday agencies.
That is terrible. A full service airline enterprise cannot survive earning charter like revenue.
Just from the revenue side the entire model for full service airline in Cyprus is mistake I think as traffic is virtually all either tourist or ethnic clients. Cyprus is not a Luxembourg or Switzerland with large component of business and premium client travelling.
Quoting JU068 (Reply 63): That's how Cyprus Airways should have been organized from the start.
I dont believe one can maintain such a small 3-4 plane airline enterprise. Overhead cost be too much and you wont be able to generate enough revenue to cover (especially since you say airline earns such low yields).
Quoting JU068 (Reply 63): In order to meet the growing seasonal demand Cyprus Airways could have one or two extra aircraft in its fleet that it could park at Paphos airport throughout the winter while it could hire seasonal staff so as to reduce costs. After all, this model works just fine for Ryanair.
I think it works for Ryanair as they are an extremely profitable enterprise and have the financial and operational flexibility.
For a CY if it parks 2 planes out of a fleet of 5 or 6, they still have to make payments on leases and cover overhead burden with the remaining 3-4 planes. Considering how weak winters are to Cyprus combined with the low revenue potential it seems this is path to failure also.
LAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 22030 posts, RR: 51 Reply 66, posted (2 months 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 1958 times:
Quoting mercure1 (Reply 65): That is terrible. A full service airline enterprise cannot survive earning charter like revenue.
Just from the revenue side the entire model for full service airline in Cyprus is mistake I think as traffic is virtually all either tourist or ethnic clients. Cyprus is not a Luxembourg or Switzerland with large component of business and premium client travelling.
How about forgetting the entire concept of a national airline, and encourage more LCCs to come set up shop in Cyprus.
Give likes of Ryanair, EasyJet, Vueling, etc strong incentives to create base and grow their flight activity.
Seems the money spent to provide discounts at airports, help with marketing, etc for these airlines would be cheaper trying to run a national carrier at continued losses.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
Viscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 21483 posts, RR: 24 Reply 68, posted (2 months 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 1787 times:
Quoting LAXintl (Reply 66): How about forgetting the entire concept of a national airline, and encourage more LCCs to come set up shop in Cyprus.
Agree. Can a country with a GDP lower than any of the 50 U.S. states really justify maintaining a national carrier? The Cyprus GDP is slightly lower than Vermont's, the lowest of the 50 states.
OA260 From Ireland, joined Nov 2006, 24894 posts, RR: 60 Reply 69, posted (2 months 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 1778 times:
Quoting JU068 (Reply 64): Well, I was just told (by a high ranking official) that there is a huge chance for Laiki and the BoC to go bankrupt. If that happens then the whole system will collapse taking CY with it.
Well that's no secret . Media here are even suggesting it. Anything can happen over the next 4-7 days! Lets hope there is a miracle.
It was reported in the Greek media after the minister of interior said that they might never re-open for business. In the parliament they said that this will most likely happen as the Russians are not too keen on purchasing either one of them. A few days before the crisis €4,5 billion left Cyprus- so it is most likely that rich Cypriots don't have anything to lose.
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Another problem would be the configuration, CY has C/Y configurations on all it's aircraft, aircraft in all Y are much easier to lease out and much more wanted.
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