Sponsor Message:
Civil Aviation Forum
My Starred Topics | Profile | New Topic | Forum Index | Help | Search 
3-3-74...Paris Crash In The Forest  
User currently offlineCairnterriAIR From United States of America, joined Jun 2008, 401 posts, RR: 0
Posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 19138 times:

Today, March 3 was the day THY flight 981 crashed just outside of Paris after the DC-10 lost its cargo door resulting in loss of control and the ultimate disaster. While I was a very young child at the time I do remember pictures on the news as my folks watched. A very bad airplane crash...was what they told me as we watched, and later they explaining that a door was opened up while in the air. I know there was a similar incident not long before this accident but for some reason this particular aircraft had not yet been modified. My questions are the following: What is your recollection of the crash? Were you working around planes at that time? Was there a stigma placed on the DC-10 that was later seen after the crash in Chicago? Very gruesome crash and hearing about what rescue workers initially faced...I can not imagine.

61 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineKC135TopBoom From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 12061 posts, RR: 52
Reply 1, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 18886 times:

I was in the USAF flying KC-135s at the time of the crash. The DC-10s were being modified with the same style cam locking system for the cargo doors that we had (the DC-10 system was more automated than what we had). IIRC it was the deadliest crash in history up until that time (the Tenerife B-747 ground collision accident didn't happen for another 3 years) with some 350 killed in the accident.

The TK-981 accident is also known as the Ermenonville air disaster, named for the forest the wreckage fell into. The aircraft, a DC-10-10 was, IIRC the first or second DC-10 delivered to TK, after they were leased from UA, but not delivered to that airline. I believe it was around the 30th DC-10 built.


User currently offlineairsmiles From United Kingdom, joined Sep 2009, 88 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 18710 times:

TC-JAV was the 2nd for THY and was en-route to London-Heathrow so this accident was badly felt in the UK. I'm not quoting facts here but I believe there was a similar cargo door failure on an American AL DC10 prior to the THY accident. I think the accident was put down to a manufacturing defect on the latch mechanism, but that's my recollection only. If so, presumably the THY and American aircraft came off the assembly line at similar times?

User currently offlineAesma From France, joined Nov 2009, 6100 posts, RR: 9
Reply 3, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 18672 times:

It was a design problem that allowed to close the door without really closing it.


New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
User currently offlineKC135TopBoom From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 12061 posts, RR: 52
Reply 4, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 18510 times:

Quoting airsmiles (Reply 2):
I'm not quoting facts here but I believe there was a similar cargo door failure on an American AL DC10 prior to the THY accident. I think the accident was put down to a manufacturing defect on the latch mechanism, but that's my recollection only.

You are correct, it was AA-96, about 2 years earlier, another DC-10-10, N103AA. That was a near disaster, too. But the AA crew managed to regain control of the airplane and made an emergency landing at DTW. This was the Windsor incident.

N103AA was around the 10th or 12th airplane off the line, so it was not produced at the same time TC-JAV was built.


User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 24075 posts, RR: 22
Reply 5, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 18442 times:

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 4):
Quoting airsmiles (Reply 2):
I'm not quoting facts here but I believe there was a similar cargo door failure on an American AL DC10 prior to the THY accident. I think the accident was put down to a manufacturing defect on the latch mechanism, but that's my recollection only.

You are correct, it was AA-96, about 2 years earlier, another DC-10-10, N103AA. That was a near disaster, too. But the AA crew managed to regain control of the airplane and made an emergency landing at DTW. This was the Windsor incident.

If memory correct, the TK DC-10 had not yet been modified to cover FAA recommendations following the AA accident.

Quoting airsmiles (Reply 2):
TC-JAV was the 2nd for THY and was en-route to London-Heathrow so this accident was badly felt in the UK.

Many passengers were BA passengers who had been rebooked on the TK flight at the last minute due to a BA labour dispute that resulted in cancellation of the BA flight.

As a sidenote, CDG airport officially opened 5 days after the TK crash.


User currently offlineNASCARAirforce From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3150 posts, RR: 5
Reply 6, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 18351 times:

Quoting CairnterriAIR (Thread starter):
Was there a stigma placed on the DC-10 that was later seen after the crash in Chicago? Very gruesome crash and hearing about what rescue workers initially faced...I can not imagine.

The Chicago and Paris crash were unrelated reasons

Paris was the cargo door opening up and plane depressurizing similar to the AA DC-10 at DTW as someone else mentioned. The AA Flt 191 Chicago crash was an engine falling off and damaging the aircraft causing it to roll over and crash


User currently offlineTK787 From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 4299 posts, RR: 12
Reply 7, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 18275 times:


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © M. Maibrink


For all lost their lives that day, RIP.


User currently offlinetype-rated From United States of America, joined Sep 1999, 4843 posts, RR: 19
Reply 8, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 18232 times:

One of the problems with the DC10 cargo door latching mechanism was that you could force the door handle to appear to be shut with very little force. This could lead to the appearance that the door was shut when really it is not. Also to add to the problem was that the door instructions written on the door itself was only in English. And the ramp worker at CDG didn't speak English.

I believe the correction was to make the door handle harder to close if latched improperly and to put a sight window on the door so you could visually ensure that the door was truly latched.

This info comes from a book published a few years after the accident. I think it was called "The Last 10 Seconds" or something like that.



Fly North Central Airlines..The route of the Northliners!
User currently offlinewarden145 From United States of America, joined Aug 2010, 496 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 18205 times:

May those who were aboard TK 981 rest in peace.  Sad
Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 5):
If memory correct, the TK DC-10 had not yet been modified to cover FAA recommendations following the AA accident.

I recall reading a few different books that discussed these incidents...they said that the NTSB issued a recommendation to make these modifications after the AA incident, but the FAA didn't make it an Airworthiness Directive until after the TK crash. At least one of the books implied that the FAA's failure to make it an AD was the result of pressure from McDonnell Douglas, but I don't know if there's anything to back up that claim.

Quoting CairnterriAIR (Thread starter):
Was there a stigma placed on the DC-10 that was later seen after the crash in Chicago?

I've seen references, both in earlier threads on here and elsewhere, to people being afraid to fly on the DC-10 for a period of time after both incidents. I wasn't alive yet when either incident happened, so I have no firsthand knowledge. With that said, there were a few books written that capitalized on (and likely hyped up) the safety issues related to the DC-10, most notably The Rise and Fall of the DC-10.

[Edited 2013-03-03 17:04:39]


ETOPS = Engine Turns Off, Passengers Swim
User currently offlinelonghauler From Canada, joined Mar 2004, 4759 posts, RR: 43
Reply 10, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 18190 times:

Adding to the cargo door issues, was another design flaw with regard to the venting of the rear cargo hold to the cabin above. It was not sufficient, so when the rear cargo hold decompressed, the pressure differential caused the rear cabin floor to buckle.

When the cabin floor buckled, control of engine 2 was lost, as well as some flight controls. It was the loss of this control that caused the crash.

These circumstances were identical to the DC-10 of AA over YQG and landing in DTW.

In my opinion, with the loss of the second aircraft with identical circumstances ... the DC-10 should have been grounded, and the flaws fixed. The books written about that, and the alleged bribing within the FAA to keep the DC-10 flying are fascinating and worthy of Robert Ludlum!



Never gonna grow up, never gonna slow down .... Barefoot Blue Jean Night
User currently offlineMax Q From United States of America, joined May 2001, 4069 posts, RR: 19
Reply 11, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 17992 times:

Not just that, but running the control cables through the floors made them vulnerable to a floor collapse.


The DC10 turned out to be a fine Aircraft eventually but it had a lot of design shortcuts initially due to the race to get
it out the door before the superb L1011 Tristar.


And yes, I am biased !



The best contribution to safety is a competent Pilot.
User currently offlinefrontierflyer From United States of America, joined Aug 2007, 215 posts, RR: 1
Reply 12, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 17810 times:

It didn't help the flight was heavily booked, probably caused the floor to really cave in with all the extra weight .

User currently offlineAesma From France, joined Nov 2009, 6100 posts, RR: 9
Reply 13, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 17050 times:

Quoting type-rated (Reply 8):
Also to add to the problem was that the door instructions written on the door itself was only in English. And the ramp worker at CDG didn't speak English.

Well, I'm not sure you can expect a panel to be in dozens of languages, nor a minimum wage worker to speak a foreign language. Aren't ramp workers trained for each aircraft, at least a lead one or something like that ?



New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
User currently offlinetype-rated From United States of America, joined Sep 1999, 4843 posts, RR: 19
Reply 14, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 16576 times:

Quoting Aesma (Reply 13):
Well, I'm not sure you can expect a panel to be in dozens of languages, nor a minimum wage worker to speak a foreign language. Aren't ramp workers trained for each aircraft, at least a lead one or something like that ?

One would think....



Fly North Central Airlines..The route of the Northliners!
User currently offlineflyingturtle From Switzerland, joined Oct 2011, 2037 posts, RR: 13
Reply 15, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 16089 times:

Quoting type-rated (Reply 8):
and to put a sight window on the door so you could visually ensure that the door was truly latched.

On the day of the crash, the little window was already there, with English and Turkish instructions. However, the ramper from Morocco (other sources say Algeria, but in both countries the languages are Arabic and French) spoke neither English nor Turkish. However, I'm not sure if his supervisor taught him to use that window.

Anyway, the DC-10 that crashed that day seems to be the 29th DC-10 produced, which still begs the question:

Quoting Aesma (Reply 13):
Aren't ramp workers trained for each aircraft, at least a lead one or something like that ?

Did the ramper not have enough experience with DC-10s?

Quoting frontierflyer (Reply 12):
It didn't help the flight was heavily booked, probably caused the floor to really cave in with all the extra weight .

I'm pretty sure an airliner must be certified to carry passengers and their luggage safely while being 100% full.  


David



Keeping calm is terrorism against those who want to live in fear.
User currently offlineHBGDS From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 16, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 15933 times:

Quoting type-rated (Reply 8):
worker at CDG didn't speak English.

It did not leave from CDG, because CDG had not yet opened for business. It left from ORY. The accident report (in French only in this case is at:

http://www.bea.aero/docspa/1974/tc-v740303/pdf/tc-v740303.pdf

The report does reference the N103AA incident in June 72, and notes that the service directive was not implemented on the TK machine. No mention of mechanics not speaking English; where did you get that one? But it does mention they failed to inspect the access window, though it was very small, to check on the lock mechanism.

There is a monument at the crash site. What I recall (as a kid) is that Paris Match, a French weekly mag, ran some incredibly gory pictures of the crash site. Beyond that, it was always the litany of the worst crash ever (until Teneriffe happened three years later)


User currently offlinedairbus From United States of America, joined Nov 2003, 591 posts, RR: 2
Reply 17, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 15910 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting longhauler (Reply 10):
Adding to the cargo door issues, was another design flaw with regard to the venting of the rear cargo hold to the cabin above. It was not sufficient, so when the rear cargo hold decompressed, the pressure differential caused the rear cabin floor to buckle.

When the cabin floor buckled, control of engine 2 was lost, as well as some flight controls. It was the loss of this control that caused the crash.

These circumstances were identical to the DC-10 of AA over YQG and landing in DTW.

Just to add...

In the case of the AA DC-10, the rear of the aircraft was configured with a passenger lounge which was empty at the time. While the floor buckled, the cables were not severed so the aircraft remained somewhat controllable. In the case of the THY aircraft, the flight was full so the cabin floor collapsed completely from the additional weight severing all the controls.



"I love mankind. It's people I can't stand." - Charles Shultz
User currently offlinemaxpower1954 From United States of America, joined Sep 2008, 1034 posts, RR: 7
Reply 18, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 15689 times:

I flew the DC-10 for World Airways in the mid 1980s. A procedure that evolved from the AA/THY accidents was to engage either autopilot if a loss of manual flight controls occurred. The wiring for the autopilot servos ran through the top of the cabin instead of the floor. That was the theory, anyway!

The DC-10 was a good airplane, as easy to fly as the 727. But the feeling was it could have used a little less McDonnell and a lot more Douglas...


User currently offlineflyingturtle From Switzerland, joined Oct 2011, 2037 posts, RR: 13
Reply 19, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 15373 times:

Quoting HBGDS (Reply 16):
No mention of mechanics not speaking English; where did you get that one?

Both the English and German Wikipedia mention the Moroccan (or Algerian) ramper who neither spoke English or Turkish, but they give no source...   


David



Keeping calm is terrorism against those who want to live in fear.
User currently offlinewinstonlegthigh From United States of America, joined Nov 2012, 119 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 14770 times:

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 1):
The aircraft, a DC-10-10 was, IIRC the first or second DC-10 delivered to TK, after they were leased from UA, but not delivered to that airline. I believe it was around the 30th DC-10 built.

When put it this way, I'd imagine it would have given the sinking that could have been me feeling in the pits of several UA-employed stomachs (particularly those dealing with fleet makeup).

Any reason they didn't receive the DC-10s?



Never has gravity been so uplifting.
User currently offlineairsmiles From United Kingdom, joined Sep 2009, 88 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 13975 times:

I don't understand the reference to leases from/to United? I've never heard that before so could someone add some clarification?

User currently offlinelh526 From Germany, joined Aug 2000, 2327 posts, RR: 14
Reply 22, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 13761 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
FORUM MODERATOR

Quoting Aesma (Reply 13):
Well, I'm not sure you can expect a panel to be in dozens of languages, nor a minimum wage worker to speak a foreign language. Aren't ramp workers trained for each aircraft, at least a lead one or something like that ?

If I was an Airline operator and I would contract an airport (or one of its subsidiaries) to handle my aircraft during turnaround, I expect every one of the workers and handlers to put the utmost care into their efforts, including going by the book where absolutely necessary. I expect trained personell and duty managers and supervisors doing a proper job.
We are not talking about a carpenter laying a wood-floor, but a tin-box carrying 300+ pax!



Trittst im Morgenrot daher, seh ich dich im Strahlenmeer ...
User currently offlineBHMNONREV From Australia, joined Aug 2003, 1360 posts, RR: 4
Reply 23, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 13434 times:

Quoting type-rated (Reply 8):
I believe the correction was to make the door handle harder to close if latched improperly and to put a sight window on the door so you could visually ensure that the door was truly latched.

Back in the late-1970's, I worked in the USAF at Rhein-Main AB in Frankfurt. We were not allowed to close the cargo doors of the DC-10, this had to be done by an airline rep (World, TIA or ONA). I'm not sure if this was a USAF or airline directive, but regardless it was a no-no. We were allowed to open the doors but not close them. I'm sure this was a result of the issues with the door which resulted in the crash in France.

And not to hijack the thread, but I was there in '79 when AA191 went down and the subsequent grounding of the entire DC-10 fleet. The USAF had to pick up the slack to get folks back to the US, it took (4) C-141A's to match what one DC-10 could provide. The reputation of the '10 certainly suffered as a result of these major accidents..  
Quoting type-rated (Reply 8):
This info comes from a book published a few years after the accident. I think it was called "The Last 10 Seconds" or something like that.

If anyone gets a chance to look, this is a very good read. Not sure if that title is correct, but I know which one you are talking about.


User currently offlinecv990coronado From South Africa, joined Nov 2007, 315 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 13203 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

There was an excellent book about the crash and the development of the DC10 by a Sunday Times Insight team called "Destination Disaster". The team was lead by Paul Eddy with Elaine Potter and Bruce Page. As with all crashes it was a combination of factors which resulted in the ultimate disaster i.e as with the Tenerife Pan Am/KLM crash.

The aircraft was completely full due to BEA(Old British Airways) being on strike and a big Rugby match having been played the previous evening.

In the book much is mentioned of the effects of the take over of Douglas by McDonnell and the competition with Lockheed to be first. The term "Fly before they roll" was apparently on a banner above the assembly line. There were two very damning condemnations of McDonnell/Douglas which could have some relevance today. The first was the so call "Applegate Memo" Involves communication between Convair ( General Dynamics) who were the subcontractors on part of the fuselage including the cargo door. In this memo Convair told McDonnell/Douglas that it was an unsafe design. They were basically told to get on and built it as there were just sub contractors.

The other incident involved the so called "Gentleman's agreement" between McDonnell Douglas and the FAA after the near fatal AA 96 Windsor incident. This is where Mr Jack McGowan of Douglas and Mr John Shaffer of the FAA(a Richard Nixon appointee) agreed that Douglas would take "corrective measures' to fix the cargo door. This avoided the issuance of a FAA Airworthiness Directive on Douglas with all the negative publicity. It also went a long way to condemning the THY passenger to death. One FAA executive Arven Basnight was very dubious of this arrangement and wrote a secret memo to the files recording this arrangement to protect him and his staff. The DC 10 should in my opinion have been grounded after Paris and long before Chicago.

"Quoting maxpower1954"
"The DC-10 was a good airplane, as easy to fly as the 727. But the feeling was it could have used a little less McDonnell and a lot more Douglas..."

Yes I think that is correct. If one reads some of the posts on the "FAA Grounds 787" thread then maybe the same applies to Boeing regarding the effects of McDonnell on them too.

"Quoting winstonlegthigh"
"When put it this way, I'd imagine it would have given the sinking that could have been me feeling in the pits of several UA-employed stomachs (particularly those dealing with fleet makeup).

Any reason they didn't receive the DC-10s?"

The aircraft were originally ordered by Mitsui of Japan who hoped to sell them on to ANA. ANA were a L1011 Tristar customer but the L1011 was experiening problems due to the Rolls Royce bankrupcy. In the end ANA stayed loyal to the Tristar and these aircraft needed a new home. I think that is where the UA lease came from.



SSC-707B727 737-741234SP757/762/3/772/WA300/10/319/2/1-342/3/6-880-DAM-VC10 TRD 111 Ju52-DC8/9/10/11-YS11-748-VCV DH4B L
25 aagold : I remember following the news about the troubles with the DC-10s through the years. "Destination Disaster" was, in my opinion, an excellent source abo
26 muzyck : I recall reading the details about this in the book Destination Disaster. I was in my early teens when the book came out and it was quite an education
27 hunterboy : I do remember it well. It was the day after the France England rugby international: with the BA flight cancellation, many Englishmen were transferred
28 maxpower1954 : The most amazing part is the aft cargo bulk door blew open BEFORE the AA/THY accidents during a ground pressurisation test at San Diego (General Dyna
29 n729pa : Purely FYI....On the 2nd March, France had played England at the Parc des Princes in Paris in a 5 Nations rugby international. A large number of the
30 bcal dc10 : Random fact... My late grandfather was booked on this flight and missed it. Until the day he passed away, he wouldn't ever speak of it.
31 Beardown91737 : I don't remember much about TK 981, I was in HS at the time, it was distant, and the sad fact of those days was that air disasters were not terribly
32 art : Sad for me. Lent my camera to someone who was on the plane.
33 802flyguy : The DC-10 was a good airplane, as easy to fly as the 727. But the feeling was it could have used a little less McDonnell and a lot more Douglas...[/qu
34 brucek : I sometimes believe that the DC10 / L1011 race for the first trijet should be mandatory reading for college level business classes..... I recall the i
35 TK1244 : According to the episode "behind closed doors" of air crash investigation, the maintenance records of TC-JAV said that the modifications were done whi
36 longhauler : Yes, that was in one of the books I read about this crash. It was thought that the mods were done at the factory before delivery, so even if it becam
37 airtechy : It was my understanding that per existing regulations the size and number of the "blowout plugs" in the passenger floor were sized based on those requ
38 Aesma : But do you expect to pay for that ? Well, that carpenter is making two or three times what a ramp rat makes.
39 jimbobjoe : Here's a random movie trivia fact: The movie Snatch (with Brad Pitt, excellent film btw) has a character in it whose nickname is "Turkish." The movie
40 flyingturtle : Today I loaned "Destination Disaster" from the university library. Until now, it has been a absorbing read. David
41 kaitak : There is another book that was written about the DC10, called - oddly enough - "The Rise and fall of the DC10"; it had very good coverage of the Paris
42 cv990coronado : @ flying turtle Enjoy ! When I first read it there were still DC10's to fly on. Sometimes one wasn't so pleased to have read the book when sitting at
43 planespotting : I took Business Analytics (basically my first statistics class ever) this past spring as part of my MBA coursework (my previous educational background
44 longhauler : It makes sense in theory, but in reality there are many examples of multi-step operations on airframes. Shoot, look at the Embraer doors alone, with
45 Post contains links RebelDJ : Me too! If you want to see how the regulation covering the design of fuselage doors has attempted to minimise the possibility of this type of acciden
46 planespotting : Totally understand, and I also find it very interesting as well. I really enjoyed the one human factors class I was able to take in college. I also d
47 FreshSide3 : They do have a memorial wall for the crash victims, at Paris' famous Pere Lachaise cemetery, incidentally.
48 Type-Rated : From the book "The Last Nine Minutes" by Moira Johnston. It's a very good book about this accident and is available on Amazon. Maybe you should read
49 HBGDS : Oh that one... Only an American journalist would expect everybody outside the US to speak English and take a swipe at the French that way. It is a go
50 Ldriver : There's another element of intrigue that isn't as well remembered about TC-JAV. The evidence showed that a few brief weeks before Paris, someone had t
51 rwy04lga : I'm lucky to be here! My first widebody flight was DC-10-10 N60NA line number 14. National Airlines TPA-JFK 12-17-71. Well before any design flaws we
52 longhauler : This is a common misconception with regard to this crash. Using rough figures, the aft cabin is approximately 270,000 square inches. If the cabin had
53 flyingturtle : Does anybody have a picture of such a cabin floor vent? Google won't turn up any images (except wooden cabins). David
54 SEPilot : This goes to the fact that McDonnell took over Douglas long before the design of the DC-10 was finished, and they called all the shots. McDonnell had
55 Post contains links and images longhauler : The vents were on the walls, at floor level. Either they are bare and visible like in the freighter shots, or in passenger aircraft often the wall pa
56 Ldriver : Don't know if this would change your analysis, but AA YQG was at almost the exact same altitude as TK: between 12 and 13 thousand ft. There is a chai
57 flyingturtle : And let's not forget the role of the FAA. Under Nixon, John H. Shaffer was appointed head of the FAA, and he was tangled with corporate interests. He
58 longhauler : Actually, I didn't know that. I had always thought the TK DC-10 was a lot lower, and the AA DC-10 was going from ORD-BUF, not DTW-BUF. It changes the
59 Viscount724 : AA96 was operating DTW-BUF, not ORD-BUF. Complete flight routing was LAX-DTW-BUF-LGA. There were only 57 passengers on the DTW-BUF leg (and 11 crew),
60 jimbobjoe : I have found an article that proposes something I've not heard before... "However, in the Detroit case, reinforcement of the passenger cabin floor (t
61 flyingturtle : Funny. I heard it was the other way round... ordering manufacturers to design adequate cabin floor vents. I'm now halfway through the book, and it ge
Top Of Page
Forum Index

This topic is archived and can not be replied to any more.

Printer friendly format

Similar topics:More similar topics...
Delta 727 Crash In The 80's posted Mon Jul 26 2004 08:21:43 by Positive rate
NW Crash In The 80s posted Wed Jul 21 2004 17:43:48 by 7E72004
Alitalia Crash In The 60's posted Fri Jan 3 2003 05:21:25 by Lubcha132
30 Years Ago : Eastern 401 Crash In The Everglades posted Fri Dec 27 2002 03:26:15 by SegmentKing
Pacific Air Crash In The Philippines posted Thu Oct 31 2002 19:02:36 by Heinz
A Crash In The LA Area posted Thu Jul 4 2002 22:09:34 by 9V-SPJ
LOT IL-62 Crash In The 80's.. posted Sun Jan 21 2001 08:02:08 by Future_Pilot
Plane Crash In The Philippines posted Wed Apr 19 2000 03:00:55 by Hmmmm...
Crash in the UK posted Wed Jan 13 1999 13:41:09 by Cool Cat IIIc
Program on French TV about the concorde crash in Paris posted Mon Oct 20 2003 15:20:12 by Kl911