Sponsor Message:
Civil Aviation Forum
My Starred Topics | Profile | New Topic | Forum Index | Help | Search 
MAD T4 Taken By IB Workers, Chaos Expected  
User currently offlineGonzalo From Chile, joined Aug 2005, 1953 posts, RR: 2
Posted (1 year 1 month 3 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 11433 times:

Hundreds of IB workers took the T4 in MAD today, in the first day of the second week of strikes ( Monday to Friday ), causing a severe disruption of the airport normality.

It is expected to see the same in the next days of strike, since the negotiations with IAG are frozen.

http://economia.elpais.com/economia/.../actualidad/1362340822_334356.html

Definitely not a good week for air travel in Madrid....


Rgds.

G.


80 Knots...V1...Rotate...Gear Up...DC-3 / EMB-110 / Fairchild-227 / Ab318-19-20 / B732 / B763
114 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineBestWestern From Hong Kong, joined Sep 2000, 6958 posts, RR: 57
Reply 1, posted (1 year 1 month 3 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 11303 times:

And where are the police to Evict them?


The world is really getting smaller these days
User currently offlineGonzalo From Chile, joined Aug 2005, 1953 posts, RR: 2
Reply 2, posted (1 year 1 month 3 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 11177 times:

Quoting BestWestern (Reply 1):
And where are the police to Evict them?

I guess they are avoiding a confrontation since the previous week of strikes in February had a couple of "ugly" situations... but definitely the police should keep some degree of control...

Rgds.
G.



80 Knots...V1...Rotate...Gear Up...DC-3 / EMB-110 / Fairchild-227 / Ab318-19-20 / B732 / B763
User currently offlineBestWestern From Hong Kong, joined Sep 2000, 6958 posts, RR: 57
Reply 3, posted (1 year 1 month 3 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 11062 times:

Quoting Gonzalo (Reply 2):
I guess they are avoiding a confrontation since the previous week of strikes in February had a couple of "ugly" situations... but definitely the police should keep some degree of control...

So, The police are allowing people to take-over a major transport building illegally, and stopping all operations from the bullding? Spain is really going down the tubes.

I fear that Spain will follow Greece into the Abyss if this continues. I note the Anti-British flags and symbols etc




The world is really getting smaller these days
User currently offlinegoosebayguy From United Kingdom, joined Sep 2009, 372 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (1 year 1 month 3 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 11029 times:

Unemployment levels in Spain are running at 26%. I guess there will be an increase soon. IAG are losing about £10m a day which is probably less than if IB were working normally.

User currently offlineGonzalo From Chile, joined Aug 2005, 1953 posts, RR: 2
Reply 5, posted (1 year 1 month 3 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 10754 times:

Quoting BestWestern (Reply 3):
I note the Anti-British flags and symbols

Tipical reaction of blaming everyone but itself....IB loses money due to the aversion of the people to fly with them, and that aversion has *something* to do with the attitude of the workers for years.... but is always more effective to play the victim role and blame the other....

Quoting goosebayguy (Reply 4):
which is probably less than if IB were working normally.

And that explains why IAG is not changing a coma in their restructuring plans....


Rgds.
G.



80 Knots...V1...Rotate...Gear Up...DC-3 / EMB-110 / Fairchild-227 / Ab318-19-20 / B732 / B763
User currently offlinelightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 12444 posts, RR: 100
Reply 6, posted (1 year 1 month 3 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 10626 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting Gonzalo (Reply 2):
I guess they are avoiding a confrontation since the previous week of strikes in February had a couple of "ugly" situations... but definitely the police should keep some degree of control...

They also need to allow some venting. But workers need to understand they must have their workload and salaries adjusted to be competitive.

Quoting BestWestern (Reply 3):
I note the Anti-British flags and symbols etc

Trying to endear themselves obviously...

Quoting goosebayguy (Reply 4):
Unemployment levels in Spain are running at 26%. I guess there will be an increase soon. IAG are losing about £10m a day which is probably less than if IB were working normally.

I wonder. Does IB lose more per day operating or with the strikes? I would really like to know the true numbers.

Quoting Gonzalo (Reply 5):
IB loses money due to the aversion of the people to fly with them

But that's not the strikers fault.   That's management. Sigh... I really want IB to thrive, but this is not going to help.

Quoting Gonzalo (Reply 5):
And that explains why IAG is not changing a coma in their restructuring plans....

I expect they might go less in favor of the workers.


Lightsaber



I've posted how many times?!?
User currently offlineAR385 From Mexico, joined Nov 2003, 5949 posts, RR: 30
Reply 7, posted (1 year 1 month 3 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 10535 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 6):
I wonder. Does IB lose more per day operating or with the strikes? I would really like to know the true numbers.

According to IAG, the company is losing $3 million Euro daily through the strike but the government says it is losing $10 million. That is a dramatic number because it means that if the unions go on with the 15 days already announced, the loses will come to $150 million. Plus, add the days during Easter, which they are talking about striking then too, and the cash hemorrghage is just daunting.



MGGS
User currently offlineaircatalonia From Spain, joined Nov 2007, 541 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (1 year 1 month 3 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 10500 times:

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 6):
Does IB lose more per day operating or with the strikes? I would really like to know the true numbers.

Rebooking on other companies is not cheap so I'm sure IB is losing more money now. If they hadn't sold tickets in the first place the story may have been different, though.


User currently offlineairsmiles From United Kingdom, joined Sep 2009, 88 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (1 year 1 month 3 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 10386 times:

It's a very sad situation indeed but I see absolutely no chance of Iberia employees coming out of this with any degree of success. What are the parallels here with the scale of Alitalia's and Air France's losses and how they'll be faced up to?

User currently offlineAesma From France, joined Nov 2009, 6126 posts, RR: 9
Reply 10, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 9606 times:

Quoting BestWestern (Reply 3):
I fear that Spain will follow Greece into the Abyss if this continues.

So, you think that Greece got where it is because of strikes and protests ? No, those are the consequences of the situation, not the cause.

Quoting Gonzalo (Reply 5):
Tipical reaction of blaming everyone but itself....IB loses money due to the aversion of the people to fly with them, and that aversion has *something* to do with the attitude of the workers for years.... but is always more effective to play the victim role and blame the other....

Or maybe less people can afford to fly when the economy of the country is in the gutter ?



New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
User currently offlineseahawk From Germany, joined May 2005, 595 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 9423 times:

Letting Iberia go bankrupt must be an increasingly interesting option for IAG. Probably the only option left.

User currently offlineSCL767 From Chile, joined Feb 2006, 8622 posts, RR: 5
Reply 12, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 9319 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting Gonzalo (Reply 5):
IB loses money due to the aversion of the people to fly with them, and that aversion has *something* to do with the attitude of the workers for years....

Ask Ecuadorian passengers traveling between MAD and UIO/GYE on IB how they are typically treated by IB cabin crew. Chileans traveling to Europe won't stand for it and simply avoid IB. Just look at LAN's LFs on the route to MAD and AF's LFs on the route to CDG! We even have ex-IB pilots flying for LAN now!

Quoting Aesma (Reply 10):

Quoting Gonzalo (Reply 5):
Tipical reaction of blaming everyone but itself....IB loses money due to the aversion of the people to fly with them, and that aversion has *something* to do with the attitude of the workers for years.... but is always more effective to play the victim role and blame the other....

Or maybe less people can afford to fly when the economy of the country is in the gutter ?

Meanwhile the economies of South American countries such as Chile, Colombia, Perú, etc. are experiencing robust growth. Luckily, passengers from these countries that want to travel to Spain or other countries in Europe can simply avoid flying on IB as they have other options. AV will increase frequency on the BOG-MAD route, LAN plans on increasing frequency on the SCL-MAD route; as well as launching BOG-MAD in the future. LAN has also shown an interest in serving BCN and FCO in the future. AF has shown an interest in launching CDG-UIO and will increase frequency on the CDG-LIM route. UX will soon launch MAD-MVD and will increase frequency on routes to HAV and SDQ. Perú will offer LH incentives to fly FRA-LIM. Should IB be worried? Of course not...


User currently offlineIndianicWorld From Australia, joined Jun 2001, 2788 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 9159 times:

What do these people seriously think they will do here?

Theres only 2 realistic realities from actions like this:
1/ More cuts to help make to airline survive
2/ The carrier declares bankruptcy and they are ALL out of a job

Oh yeah, great plan this one. A few genius' at work again. Typical.


User currently offlineBlueShamu330s From UK - England, joined Sep 2001, 2790 posts, RR: 25
Reply 14, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 9026 times:

Give the wounded animal a shot to the head.

Shut it down once LATAM are fully in OneWorld. Let IAG set up a shell company, reverse investment from them and LATAM into it and launch a new airline within IAG called LATAM Espana. It's a known, respected brand, totally new, cheaper employee T&Cs and remains within OneWorld.

Adios to the Iberia dinosaur.


Rgds



So I drive a 4x4. So what?! Tax the a$$ off me for it...oh, you already have... :-(
User currently offlineLHRFlyer From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2010, 801 posts, RR: 1
Reply 15, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 8997 times:

The anti-British sentiment is disgraceful.

BALPA in particular have been empathetic to both the need of Iberia to be restructured and the concerns of its staff and has tried to offer practical support to SEPLA for negotiations between SEPLA and management. They would do well to heed it.


User currently offlineMillwallSean From Singapore, joined Apr 2008, 1221 posts, RR: 6
Reply 16, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 8959 times:

Quoting BlueShamu330s (Reply 14):
Give the wounded animal a shot to the head.

Shut it down once LATAM are fully in OneWorld. Let IAG set up a shell company, reverse investment from them and LATAM into it and launch a new airline within IAG called LATAM Espana. It's a known, respected brand, totally new, cheaper employee T&Cs and remains within OneWorld.

Adios to the Iberia dinosaur.


hmm and you think that would work?
This is Europe such things wont work.
Itll be a negotiated settlement where the government comes in and pulls more than a few strings.
Question is if it will be a long term solution or a short term gap. Iberia eventually needs to address its structural deficiencies and instigate some bold reforms. Itll be a period of five years and they wont be fun and I expect that the employees will suffer a fair bit during these years. new contracts, less pay, worse conditions. just what most other European airlines has done or will have to do. (Hello SK, LH, AZ, AF etc)

While the company might go bankrupt and be restarted it wont be with any Latam involvement. Latam isnt a name that Europeans are familiar with nor is LAN seen as a quality carrier (middle of the road just like iberia)
In my opinion any new carrier would be based on the rather successful Vueling (already owned by the company) They can use similar contracts for staff and create an international division. Probably keep the name Iberia since its brand recognition is so big.

Strikes where the employees occupy and disrupt any service isn't uncommon in Europe and police are extremely unlikely to act. Unless there is a national interest for them and I doubt they see such interest with a terminal at the airport. I personally find such strikes a bit refreshing, always brings a smile to my face to see french farmers go berserk and close down half the country when they get upset over something. Not that I support that behaviour but I find it mildly amusing. Same as when the danish Carlsberg brewery workers went on strike because they weren't allowed to drink during working hours. Just makes me smile and realise the world is diverse and how much more I need to learn about other cultures.



No One Likes Us - We Dont Care.
User currently offlineSCL767 From Chile, joined Feb 2006, 8622 posts, RR: 5
Reply 17, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 8871 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting IndianicWorld (Reply 13):
What do these people seriously think they will do here?

Raising awareness that passengers should not book flights on IB and travel on other carriers instead of IB. IB's unions refuse to realize that their competitors have lower cost structures and that their competitors' employees work just as hard for less . It's shameful that some of IB's employees will blame the additional losses associated with passengers avoiding booking flights on IB on their partner carrier BA. At SCL, LAN is rebooking passengers traveling between SCL and destinations such as CDG, FRA, LHR, MAD, MXP, etc. on flights operated by TAM. All the flights to Europe from SCL, GRU, GIG, LIM, GYE operated by LATAM will soon be oversold!


User currently offlineicaro From Spain, joined Nov 2004, 227 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 8829 times:

Quoting LHRFlyer (Reply 15):
The anti-British sentiment is disgraceful.

There is no such sentiment. You want to take things out of context. They are blaming BA, or rather Willie Walsh and that´s why the use the british flag.
The same happened last week with those "British Go Home" on the screens. Of course they don´t mean British people but British Airways, or rather British Airways management team.
It is them they blame for how things are being done at the airline. They are not even against the salary cuts. All they want is a real plan for the company to survive and some dignity for those who are fired. They want to be offered early retirements rather that lay offs, which is rather understandable after a whole life at the company and the situation at the country which means that those fired won't be able to get a new job.
The Spanish management team agreed to those in december and later found out that WW wouldn't allow them to offer those conditions and prefer to use the new labour law that allows cheap firings so the company will save more money.

That is all their anti-British sentiment.


User currently offline76er From Netherlands, joined Mar 2007, 498 posts, RR: 1
Reply 19, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 8812 times:

Quoting MillwallSean (Reply 16):
In my opinion any new carrier would be based on the rather successful Vueling (already owned by the company)

I would agree. It has been done before with Swissair/Crossair and Sabena/Delta Air Transport.


User currently offlineGonzalo From Chile, joined Aug 2005, 1953 posts, RR: 2
Reply 20, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 8402 times:

Quoting BlueShamu330s (Reply 14):
Let IAG set up a shell company, reverse investment from them and LATAM into it and launch a new airline within IAG called LATAM Espana.

I don't think many people in Europe will know LATAM so deeply. And I doubt LAN management ( and their TAM counterpart ) will start this kind of adventures when there are many things to do in order to get the real benefits of LATAM, I think they will wait a good couple of years before even think in projects like the one you're talking. But obviously I could be wrong...

Rgds.

G.



80 Knots...V1...Rotate...Gear Up...DC-3 / EMB-110 / Fairchild-227 / Ab318-19-20 / B732 / B763
User currently offlineBA174 From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2009, 745 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 8376 times:

Quoting icaro (Reply 18):

So blame everybody else but IB? Sounds familiar.

The BA management have absolutely nothing to do with the day to day running of IB. They have their own (profitable) company to run.


User currently offlineicaro From Spain, joined Nov 2004, 227 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 8217 times:

Quoting BA174 (Reply 21):
The BA management have absolutely nothing to do with the day to day running of IB

I can tell you that those people marching on T4 have nothing to do with the way Iberia is being run. They don´t have anything to do with fleet planning, route planning or anything that brought the company to the state it is in now.
Those responsible are long gone with full pockets or planning to leave the company the same way.

Quoting BA174 (Reply 21):
The BA management have absolutely nothing to do with the day to day running of IB. They have their own (profitable) company to run.

IB would be profitable too if it used IAG's money to buy Air Europa and integrate it into its own structure for its own benefit.(BMI remember?) It must be easier to run a (profitable) airline when you have easy access to money that is not only yours.


User currently offlineSKAirbus From Norway, joined Oct 2007, 1618 posts, RR: 2
Reply 23, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 8154 times:

I have seen it before unfortunately... It is how the Spanish labour market works and one of the reasons that the economy is in such a state. Devolve all responsibility onto others even though at the end of the day you have to be part of your own destiny.

For example, if Iberia cabin crew actually had any people skills and didn't treat every passenger with complete and utter contempt, then maybe more people would fly with them. The same goes for ground staff. Also, being militant will not solve anything but will just contribute even more to management turning against them. The way it is in Spain now, they should just feel lucky that they have a job when a quarter of their countrymen are unemployed.

Of course a company should look after its staff within the resources they have but one part of a consortium is not there to prop up the other, but rather compliment it and I find it rather unfair that IB staff seem to have this opinion of British Airways.

Personally I think IAG should force through a full restructuring of IB by letting the carrier go bankrupt and rebirthing it through another subsiduary (as was mentioned above).



Next Flights: LHR-LBA (319-SK), MAN-ARN (736-SK), ARN-LHR (763-BA), LHR-CPH (CR9-SK), CPH-LHR (320-SK), LHR-IAH (744-BA)
User currently offlinejerseyguy From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 1845 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 7948 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

This taking over of the terminal is barbaric, I hope that everyone that did so loses their jobs. Even if you agree with this strike (I'll admit I don't), you cant condone this behavior, you handle yourself with respect rather than being an angry mob.
What's next if this doesn't work do you start destroying things so the company has to pay to replace them?



Frontier Early Returns Ascent Status| Webmaster of an unoffical TTN page see profile for details
User currently offlinejrfspa320 From Australia, joined Sep 2005, 225 posts, RR: 0
Reply 25, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 8353 times:

If IB hadnt been bought by BA I think they would already be bankrupt, the Spanish government has no money to subsidize them and are restricted in doing so by EU law, maybe the workers should think about that...they have seen spanair go...

User currently offlineLHRFlyer From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2010, 801 posts, RR: 1
Reply 26, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 8205 times:

Quoting icaro (Reply 22):
IB would be profitable too if it used IAG's money to buy Air Europa and integrate it into its own structure for its own benefit.(BMI remember?) It must be easier to run a (profitable) airline when you have easy access to money that is not only yours.

At the moment, BA would be more profitable had it not bought bmi. It absorbed €90m of losses from bmi last year.

There's no question that Iberia would be bankrupt now without IAG.


User currently offlineacelanzarote From Spain, joined Nov 2005, 814 posts, RR: 0
Reply 27, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 8300 times:

where is all this going to end I wonder, IAG/IB are not going to back down its seems, they cannot I guess but the Unions seem to think they have nothing to loose either....


from the Island with sun and great photo's.. Why not visit Lanzarote
User currently offlineBlueShamu330s From UK - England, joined Sep 2001, 2790 posts, RR: 25
Reply 28, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 8009 times:

Quoting icaro (Reply 18):
The Spanish management team agreed to those in december and later found out that WW wouldn't allow them to offer those conditions and prefer to use the new labour law that allows cheap firings so the company will save more money.

Don't blame WW then; blame your politicians, who you elected, for introducing the new legislation.

WW has a mandate to achieve the best results for IAG. He would be fired, and rightly so, for not using whatever legislation there is to help him achieve his top priority of cost saving and saving Iberia.


Rgds



So I drive a 4x4. So what?! Tax the a$$ off me for it...oh, you already have... :-(
User currently offlinenostrum From Bahamas, joined Jul 2011, 36 posts, RR: 0
Reply 29, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 7983 times:

Quoting jrfspa320 (Reply 25):
If IB hadnt been bought by BA

IB was not bought by BA, both airlines merged and formed IAG, and before the merger and the Spanish crisis IB was profitable.


User currently offlineBestWestern From Hong Kong, joined Sep 2000, 6958 posts, RR: 57
Reply 30, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 7846 times:

Quoting icaro (Reply 22):
I can tell you that those people marching on T4 have nothing to do with the way Iberia is being run. They don´t have anything to do with fleet planning, route planning or anything that brought the company to the state it is in now.
Those responsible are long gone with full pockets or planning to leave the company the same way.

They have nothing to do with the running of the airline, yet get paid so much???

They can't have it both ways. Their salaries were a large part of why the company is losing money.



The world is really getting smaller these days
User currently offlineclydenairways From Ireland, joined Jan 2007, 1202 posts, RR: 0
Reply 31, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 7592 times:

Quoting MillwallSean (Reply 16):
hmm and you think that would work?
This is Europe such things wont work.
Itll be a negotiated settlement where the government comes in and pulls more than a few strings.
Question is if it will be a long term solution or a short term gap. Iberia eventually needs to address its structural deficiencies and instigate some bold reforms. Itll be a period of five years and they wont be fun and I expect that the employees will suffer a fair bit during these years. new contracts, less pay, worse conditions. just what most other European airlines has done or will have to do. (Hello SK, LH, AZ, AF etc)

While the company might go bankrupt and be restarted it wont be with any Latam involvement. Latam isnt a name that Europeans are familiar with nor is LAN seen as a quality carrier (middle of the road just like iberia)
In my opinion any new carrier would be based on the rather successful Vueling (already owned by the company) They can use similar contracts for staff and create an international division. Probably keep the name Iberia since its brand recognition is so big.

Strikes where the employees occupy and disrupt any service isn't uncommon in Europe and police are extremely unlikely to act. Unless there is a national interest for them and I doubt they see such interest with a terminal at the airport. I personally find such strikes a bit refreshing, always brings a smile to my face to see french farmers go berserk and close down half the country when they get upset over something. Not that I support that behaviour but I find it mildly amusing. Same as when the danish Carlsberg brewery workers went on strike because they weren't allowed to drink during working hours. Just makes me smile and realise the world is diverse and how much more I need to learn about other cultures.

I think your view on using the Vueling AOC is a good suggestion that makes sense.
With the way things are going at the moment i can't see any end in sight and it's getting to the stage where IAG will have to consider winding IB down.
After that in a similar situation to the aftermath of SR and SN, IAG could start a new Iberia using the Vuelling operating certificate like how the Crossair AOC was used for Swiss, and the DAT AOC was used for Brussels Airlines.

Quoting BlueShamu330s (Reply 14):
Shut it down once LATAM are fully in OneWorld. Let IAG set up a shell company, reverse investment from them and LATAM into it and launch a new airline within IAG called LATAM Espana. It's a known, respected brand, totally new, cheaper employee T&Cs and remains within OneWorld.

I really can't see that suggestion being an option.


User currently offlineBlueShamu330s From UK - England, joined Sep 2001, 2790 posts, RR: 25
Reply 32, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 7497 times:

Quoting clydenairways (Reply 31):
I really can't see that suggestion being an option.

Nor can I but, as with the suggestion made by MillwallSean about using Vueling, I was simply illustrating how easy it would be. Part of the problem is that the Unions seem to think they can win this when in fact, their situation has never been more precarious. WW will win this, without a doubt.

Rgds



So I drive a 4x4. So what?! Tax the a$$ off me for it...oh, you already have... :-(
User currently offlinelightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 12444 posts, RR: 100
Reply 33, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 7206 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

How much of an impact is this strike having on the Spanish economy? Taxes?

IB must get up their productivity to survive:
http://centreforaviation.com/analysi...-least-productive-workforces-98577

Quoting airsmiles (Reply 9):
It's a very sad situation indeed but I see absolutely no chance of Iberia employees coming out of this with any degree of success.

   Sad, but instead they are trashing their brand.

Quoting AR385 (Reply 7):
According to IAG, the company is losing $3 million Euro daily through the strike but the government says it is losing $10 million.

I bet its a $3M hit on the net and $10M on the gross with the taxes taking the brunt.

Quoting BlueShamu330s (Reply 14):
and launch a new airline within IAG called LATAM Espana.

That makes more sense than anything. I personally think WW should be looking at options for an IB exit strategy.

Quoting acelanzarote (Reply 27):
where is all this going to end I wonder, IAG/IB are not going to back down its seems, they cannot I guess but the Unions seem to think they have nothing to loose either....

Then it is scorched earth. Cest la vie.

Lightsaber



I've posted how many times?!?
User currently offlineAR385 From Mexico, joined Nov 2003, 5949 posts, RR: 30
Reply 34, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 7131 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting BlueShamu330s (Reply 32):
their situation has never been more precarious. WW will win this, without a doubt.

Can you please explain what exactly do you mean by "WW will win this"? Because really, I see nobody "winning" in this situation.



MGGS
User currently offlineBlueShamu330s From UK - England, joined Sep 2001, 2790 posts, RR: 25
Reply 35, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 6800 times:

Quoting AR385 (Reply 34):
Can you please explain what exactly do you mean by "WW will win this"? Because really, I see nobody "winning" in this situation.

What I mean is exactly what I wrote. Willy Walsh will win the dispute for the survival of Iberia and for the overall performance of IAG as a whole.

Cash at IB is now 808 Million Euros. It doesn't take a mathematician to work out that, whilst IB loses 2 Million Euros a day and whilst the Union plan their four future strikes, that money isn't going to last long.

Retrieving details of the Transformation Plan statement, reveals this:

Quote:
The Transformation Plan requires permanent structural change in the Iberia business to enable it to return to profitability and growth. The plan is being executed within Iberia’s own financial resources (my add: see figures above). Iberia failed to reach agreement with the unions before the deadline of January 31, 2013 and has therefore commenced the imposition of a 15 per cent capacity reduction, pay cuts and productivity improvements under new Spanish labour laws.
There is a risk of Iberia management and unions not achieving the required changes now and, as a result of continued cash burn, being unable to fund the required changes in future years.

Iberia, once it burns its money away, will have nothing. Iberia owns less than 10 of its aircraft, it sold off Amadeus, has no other assets but does have a huge debt mountain.

The Government will not get involved. They themselves are broke and IAG is only acting within the bounds of the laws the Spanish Government introduced !

This is a dispute WW must win to preserve any future for Iberia. Once the money runs out and, as the statement says, if the situation arises that Iberia no longer has the resources to fund the required changes in future years, everyone at Iberia can kiss Iberia and their jobs for life adios. Vueling will become the new Iberia and everyone, not just those already planned to go, everyone will be joining the back of the unemployment queue.

Rgds



So I drive a 4x4. So what?! Tax the a$$ off me for it...oh, you already have... :-(
User currently offlineRedd From Poland, joined Jan 2013, 96 posts, RR: 0
Reply 36, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 6728 times:

Quoting icaro (Reply 18):
There is no such sentiment. You want to take things out of context. They are blaming BA, or rather Willie Walsh and that´s why the use the british flag.
The same happened last week with those "British Go Home" on the screens. Of course they don´t mean British people but British Airways, or rather British Airways management team.
It is them they blame for how things are being done at the airline. They are not even against the salary cuts. All they want is a real plan for the company to survive and some dignity for those who are fired.
Quoting BA174 (Reply 21):
So blame everybody else but IB? Sounds familiar.

Have you read a word icaro wrote? It's sad to see that once again the workers are paying the consequences for mistakes caused by management. Those workers do not make any decisions that affect the way the airline runs and yet they are always the ones that have to pay for the mistakes made by incompetence higher up.

Fare structures, marketing, etc, are not set by the mechanic.

Quoting BlueShamu330s (Reply 28):
Don't blame WW then; blame your politicians, who you elected, for introducing the new legislation.

People of Spain are blaming them at the moment, check out the protests.

Quoting BestWestern (Reply 30):
They have nothing to do with the running of the airline, yet get paid so much???

How would you feel about taking a pay cut or getting fired after a lifetime with a company? Let management cut their salaries first, after all they are responsible for the things going wrong at IB. The people responsible for the direct safety and operation of the airline should not be on McDonalds wages.


User currently offlineicaro From Spain, joined Nov 2004, 227 posts, RR: 0
Reply 37, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 6771 times:

Quoting LHRFlyer (Reply 26):
At the moment, BA would be more profitable had it not bought bmi. It absorbed €90m of losses from bmi last year.

The thing is that BA is using IAG resources for their own purpose (even if this year means a loss). Therefore IB is helping BA buying its competitors, fleet and LHR slots which will help BA in the future.This money comes from IB. It is their cash reserve which is used to help BA.
The exactly same thing is happening with Vueling. It has costed IB a lot of money to create Clickair and the subsequent price war that made it possible for IB to finally merge Clickair and Vueling and get the control. Those expenses are also responsible of the losses in IB these last years. And now that Vuelings profilt can help IB, it is IAG who is going to buy Vueling for a fraction of the price that it costs. Again BA is going to benefit from an IB investment.

Quoting BestWestern (Reply 30):
yet get paid so much???

I tell you again that they agree on a salary cut. They just want a plan for the airline.
Losses don't come only from "high" salaries. They come from opening routes irresponsibly and bleeding money on those. They come from operating a not so efficient fleet that should have been modernized long ago. They come from not investing money in your product for years and letting competition offer much better service. They come from degrading your product to an extent that passegers don't want to fly you cause you offer exactly the same as all low cost but at a higher price. They come from saving money in just the only thing you shouldn´t do, what the passenger get, less crew, less service, less ground staff, less frills.
Employees agree to a salary cut, they just NEED to believe on the people who are running this Chaos. There must be a plan and that plan cannot be just cutting costs. That has been done before and you see it didn´t work.


User currently offlinealfie1980 From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2013, 5 posts, RR: 0
Reply 38, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 6331 times:

Hi all, first of all I would like to say I am a new member to this forum and I really enjoy reading the different opinions of all the members. I would like to say that I am Spanish and have been a loyal Iberia customer for the last 20 years, I hold an Iberia Plus Gold Card as I fly over 50 segments with them a year. It is really sad to see what is happening, to hear the same speech Mr Walsh gave to BA workforce a couple of years ago. I know it is all very easy to blame Mr Walsh, although Mr Walsh should know that Iberia is no Aer lingus,. it is a much larger airline and a very important player between Europe and Latin America. The people that contributed to Iberia's current bad shape are not the workers but the Iberia management, who seem to be more keen in making of Iberia a subsidiary to BA á la Swissair did to Sabena.
I always hear all this bad remarks on Iberia's poor service, but I must say that I fly with them at least 50 times a year sometimes I am lucky and its in Business class and other times is down the back and the business product in Europe is far better than BA's first of all, the catering is much better, healthier, not those ready meals that they serve on BA, the planes are much cleaner, the cabin interiors are fresh looking.... etc. The cabin crew, well sometimes you get excellent crew and other times not so excellent but not rude, maybe is the fact that their English is not great and its funny but most of my English friends when they hear me talking in Spanish they seem to think that I am arguing but when in fact I am not. lets just say that people may think that the crew are being rude. You also have to realize that if you board a flight between London and Madrid on BA on very little occasion you see Spanish speaking crew.
Iberia is great airline in need of improvement in many areas, is part of the Spanish culture its a moving advertisement of Spain the red and yellow, the sun and the passion.
Ba management are converting IB in just a feeder to BA, why is BA becoming stronger in LATAM ? I thought the idea was that MAD will become the Europe HUB to LATAM and LOndon to US and Asia where BA is a stronger brand.
I really feel sorry for the staff. Last year my father had a heart transplant in Asturias, I was in my office it was 2 PM i called the Iberia ticket line and I was booked on a flight at 5 PM to Madrid and then on to Asturias, the crew could not have been more attentive and supportive, something that I have not experienced on any other airline.


User currently offlineGonzalo From Chile, joined Aug 2005, 1953 posts, RR: 2
Reply 39, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 5989 times:

Quoting Redd (Reply 36):
Those workers do not make any decisions that affect the way the airline runs

Sorry, but that's not true. Maybe they are not making the route planning, or the investment program, or the fleet renewal plan.... but they are making a very important decision every day, whit a BIG effect in the airline results, and that decision is what attitude you have every day doing your job. I accept that is not fair to make generalizations, and that there are probably a percentage of IB workers who tries to do their best, but when you have your planes flying with miserable load factors while every one is filling their planes, even at much higher fares, you need to ask your self "what am I doing wrong"... Everyone says the Latin American market is very very important for IB.... and I can tell you first hand that no one that I know wants to fly with IB.... My wife flew SCL-MAD with IB once.... and never repeated the experience, even when sometimes the LA fares are higher. Service is one of the few things that you can use to make a difference, for a lot of the average passenger who has some flexibility with the schedule, the service is the decision maker, over other aspects like the aircraft type, or the terminal building at destination, or the ETA....

Quoting alfie1980 (Reply 38):
Hi all, first of all I would like to say I am a new member to this forum

Welcome alfie1980 !!!

Quoting alfie1980 (Reply 38):
The cabin crew, well sometimes you get excellent crew and other times not so excellent but not rude, maybe is the fact that their English is not great

According to my wife's experience, and several others who told me basically the same ( all of them Spanish speakers ), the problem is not the language. Is the attitude. Have you ever felt the sensation of, despite having paid for a service, you are treated like if the provider of that service is doing a biiiiig favour to you ? Well, imagine that for +12 hours....

Rgds.
G.



80 Knots...V1...Rotate...Gear Up...DC-3 / EMB-110 / Fairchild-227 / Ab318-19-20 / B732 / B763
User currently offlineGonzalo From Chile, joined Aug 2005, 1953 posts, RR: 2
Reply 40, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 5894 times:

Update : T4 under police control, with massive display of police officers, and no protesters allowed today.

Meanwhile, the SEPLA ( Pilots Union ), announced they are considering the extension of the strike during the days of the Semana Santa.

http://economia.elpais.com/economia/.../actualidad/1362498409_289024.html

Rgds.
G.



80 Knots...V1...Rotate...Gear Up...DC-3 / EMB-110 / Fairchild-227 / Ab318-19-20 / B732 / B763
User currently offlinesumma767 From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2004, 2520 posts, RR: 6
Reply 41, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 5832 times:

Quoting icaro (Reply 37):
The thing is that BA is using IAG resources for their own purpose (even if this year means a loss). Therefore IB is helping BA buying its competitors, fleet and LHR slots which will help BA in the future.This money comes from IB

It sound like you believe what you are writing. Honestly, please do your research before you make such ridiculous statements. The money for BA investment is at the expense of IB?
Look, BA had as big a cash reserve as IB. I know that many people confuse the pension fund hole with cash, but they are totally different things. BA can invest in its own operations *because* it is making money. IB is not! It is using its cash at an alarming rate. It can only live of that for 3 years if it continues the way it is going.
When combined, the cash reserves do give the group as whole a better standing, but it is not to say that one is being bled in order to make the other viable. If they do combined investments under IAG, good for them! The purchase of BMI is not detrimental to IB. That BA can do better as a result does not mean that it has to be at the expense of IB
IAG wants to have all its airlines (BA, IB, BMI and Vueling) to be profitable! What it does not want is for any of them to lose money as alarmingly as Iberia is doing. They are a corporation, it is a business they are running, not a charity!


User currently offlineUALWN From Andorra, joined Jun 2009, 2676 posts, RR: 2
Reply 42, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 5670 times:

I'd like to repeat what icaro wrote above:

Quoting icaro (Reply 18):
They want to be offered early retirements rather that lay offs, which is rather understandable after a whole life at the company and the situation at the country which means that those fired won't be able to get a new job.
The Spanish management team agreed to those in december and later found out that WW wouldn't allow them to offer those conditions and prefer to use the new labour law that allows cheap firings so the company will save more money.

That is all their anti-British sentiment.

So the (Spanish) management of IB reached an agreement with labor, which was then overturned by WW and his team at IAG. And this is the reason for the current "anti-British" (actually, anti-WW and his mostly ex-BA team at IAG) sentiment.



AT7/111/146/Avro/CRJ/CR9/EMB/ERJ/E75/F50/100/L15/DC9/D10/M8X/717/727/737/747/757/767/777/AB6/310/319/320/321/330/340/380
User currently offlineBlueShamu330s From UK - England, joined Sep 2001, 2790 posts, RR: 25
Reply 43, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 5630 times:

Because the previous "proposal" was rushed and issued in full knowledge of the fact new legislation would save the company a considerable amount more.

It would be total dereliction of duty for WW to ignore such legislation and put sentiment before the company's very existance.



So I drive a 4x4. So what?! Tax the a$$ off me for it...oh, you already have... :-(
User currently offlinesumma767 From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2004, 2520 posts, RR: 6
Reply 44, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 5545 times:

Quoting UALWN (Reply 42):
So the (Spanish) management of IB reached an agreement with labor, which was then overturned by WW and his team at IAG. And this is the reason for the current "anti-British" (actually, anti-WW and his mostly ex-BA team at IAG) sentiment.

In the press release below, IB stated how IAG's board was made up: Board members now consist of six people with Spanish nationality, three Britons, two from the United States, one from Ireland, one from France and one from New Zealand
Twice as many spaniards as Brits on that board and yet I am not surprised that some people make up their own facts to justify blaming IB's troubles on Spain's historical rivals. Lack of rigour is commonplace.

http://grupo.iberia.es/portal/site/g...155130b310VgnVCM20000060fe15acRCRD


User currently offlineAR385 From Mexico, joined Nov 2003, 5949 posts, RR: 30
Reply 45, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 5532 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting BlueShamu330s (Reply 35):
What I mean is exactly what I wrote. Willy Walsh will win the dispute for the survival of Iberia and for the overall performance of IAG as a whole.
Quoting BlueShamu330s (Reply 35):
Cash at IB is now 808 Million Euros. It doesn't take a mathematician to work out that, whilst IB loses 2 Million Euros a day and whilst the Union plan their four future strikes, that money isn't going to last long.

Retrieving details of the Transformation Plan statement, reveals this:
Quoting BlueShamu330s (Reply 35):
This is a dispute WW must win to preserve any future for Iberia. Once the money runs out and, as the statement says, if the situation arises that Iberia no longer has the resources to fund the required changes in future years, everyone at Iberia can kiss Iberia and their jobs for life adios. Vueling will become the new Iberia and everyone, not just those already planned to go, everyone will be joining the back of the unemployment queue.

I really don´t get where it is exactly that you say WW is winning anything. From this thread and others we´ve come to understand that BA´s decision to form IAG and acquire IB through IAG was precisely because all of the advantages that IB was bringing to the "association" (merger is just a bad word). Namely:

1) A huge airport with no slot restrictions
2) An important network from Europe to Latin America

Vueling may have an airport but it certainly does not have the Latin America network IB has, nor the capability to build it quickly. Be it because of its own constraints or by the lack of authority given by the governments in the region. And that is not going to be a quick process. Furthermore Vueling has no brand recognition beyond Europe. So right then and there the very reason of IAG´s existence is being put into question. Letting IB die is not so convenient, either for BA or IAG, as you seem to think it is. And nobody will "WIN" anything.

It seems WW is hell bent on imposing draconian cuts in pay and in employment to a group that have nothing to loose, in an economy that is in shambles and where loss of employment means certain poverty. He has to understand that it is becoming more costly to continue with this mad restructuring process than to just let IB as is, at least for the time being.

Either his ego has taken over and he is beyond understanding that his brinkmanship tactics are at some point going to be counterproductive or he really wants BA to remain as the sole carrier in IAG. Good luck with that. And since I don´t belive he is stupid, I really think he has decided the cheapest way for IAG out of this maddeningly disfunctional entanglement is to let IB go bankrupt. And of course the Spanish government will come to IB´s help. Spain will never allow itself to loose direct connectivity with "the colonies".

I´m not saying IB does not need to restructure. I´m saying the timing is wrong. And this bullying approach is just unhelpful and is getting IAG NOWHERE.



MGGS
User currently offlineicaro From Spain, joined Nov 2004, 227 posts, RR: 0
Reply 46, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 5518 times:

Quoting summa767 (Reply 41):
please do your research before you make such ridiculous statements

Thank you for your kind words. Please check who bought BMI, IAG or BA? Which company is getting the profit of the operation, BA or IB? You can say that both companies benefit as far as they are part or IAG; but the truth is that BA will make a profit while IB only puts the money. And later this will be used to show how well BA performs and how bad IB does.
Same happens with Vueling, IB invested a lot of money in that company just to see how IAG takes the control and the profits away from them, to be part of the group as a whole.
IB didn't need to spend any cash in BMI or buying Vueling. BA did, and as they could not afford it on their own, they made IB spend a lot of money that could be of better use for the company in other fields.

Quoting summa767 (Reply 41):
IB is not! It is using its cash at an alarming rate

Indeed they are using their cash at an alarming rate. Not only are they covering their losses due to the situation of the country, but they are also financing BA investments in Vueling and BMI.

Quoting BlueShamu330s (Reply 43):
Because the previous "proposal" was rushed and issued in full knowledge of the fact new legislation would save the company a considerable amount more.

It would be total dereliction of duty for WW to ignore such legislation and put sentiment before the company's very existance.

When that offer was made the new legislation was already in effect. It was only a tactic to gain some time and avoid strikes during Christmas.
It is not a question of sentiment over sense, it is a question of ethics which WW doesn´t seem to know about.


User currently offlineJU068 From Serbia, joined Aug 2009, 2579 posts, RR: 6
Reply 47, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 5526 times:

Quoting BlueShamu330s (Reply 43):

You do understand we are talking about human lives here, right? The Spanish want to give them early retirements rather than to fire them. There is a big difference between the two especially for people over 45.

Let's not lose our humanity here.


User currently offlinesumma767 From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2004, 2520 posts, RR: 6
Reply 48, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 5429 times:

Quoting icaro (Reply 46):
Indeed they are using their cash at an alarming rate. Not only are they covering their losses due to the situation of the country, but they are also financing BA investments in Vueling and BMI.

Look, investments are one thing and operations are another. If you want to think that the investments that IAG are doing are only benefiting BA, you are entitled to your opinion of which I am sure you are convinced. I, on the other hand remain of the view that such beliefs are just complexes where foreigners are blamed in the first instance.

Quoting JU068 (Reply 47):
ou do understand we are talking about human lives here, right? The Spanish want to give them early retirements rather than to fire them. There is a big difference between the two especially for people over 45.

Let's not lose our humanity here.

The Spanish situation is terrible. The number of unemployed is absolutely horrifying, and more so for the young.
And yet, companies have to be viable. In order to provide employment in the medium and long term, restructuring has to happen now.
I am not privy to the details of the negotiation between IB and the unions, but a newspaper reports that the latest offer from the company is that 3100 jobs would have to go (down 4500 from the original proposal), and that the compensation would be under conditions that preceed newer laws and so employees would have a better compensation package than current laws actually allow . It also contemplates early retirements, though this would not be a main route. Salary cuts are also required.
The note below is from the beginning of February, and in it, IB says that if unions accept that offer, IAG would not object it.
I can only hope that Ib and unions can go back to the negotiation table again, and try to come to some sort of accord that can allow IB to sort itself out and gear itself up for a viable operation going forward. Mentality of some employees will have to change too, hopefully towards an attitude where passengers are seen as clients more than as a nuisance.

http://www.larazon.es/detalle_normal...se-rompe-y-habra-huel#.UTZX_LTaaCQ

[



[Edited 2013-03-05 13:12:59]

User currently offlineicaro From Spain, joined Nov 2004, 227 posts, RR: 0
Reply 49, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 5402 times:

Quoting summa767 (Reply 48):
Quoting summa767 (Reply 48):
but a newspaper reports that the latest offer from the company is that 3100 jobs would have to go (down 4500 from the original proposal), and that the compensation would be under conditions that preceed newer laws and so employees would have a better compensation package than current laws actually allow . It also contemplates early retirements, though this would not be a main route. Salary cuts are also required.

Lay offs are 3.800, compensation under new labour laws. No early retirements. 12% salary cuts for ground staff and around 30% for cabin crew and pilots.

Quoting summa767 (Reply 41):
Honestly, please do your research before you make such ridiculous statements

Please...


User currently offlineLHRFlyer From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2010, 801 posts, RR: 1
Reply 50, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 5337 times:

Quoting UALWN (Reply 42):
So the (Spanish) management of IB reached an agreement with labor, which was then overturned by WW and his team at IAG. And this is the reason for the current "anti-British" (actually, anti-WW and his mostly ex-BA team at IAG) sentiment.

Did whatever was agreed between Iberia management and the unions actually meet the savings target? If it did why an earth would IAG turn it down?

And SEPLA has been peddling lies and mistruths for months and months to generate anti-British/BA sentiment (BA "stole" the JNB route from Iberia, Iberia funds are being use to plug the BA pension deficit etc). All lies and all comprehensively rebutted.

Quoting icaro (Reply 46):
Please check who bought BMI, IAG or BA? Which company is getting the profit of the operation, BA or IB? You can say that both companies benefit as far as they are part or IAG; but the truth is that BA will make a profit while IB only puts the money. And later this will be used to show how well BA performs and how bad IB does.
IAG bought bmi. Yes, it has been integrated into BA. However, there were individuals in IAG (not Willie Walsh) who were strongly arguing that bmi should be kept separate from BA as "BA Express" type operation. In return for integrating bmi into BA the pilots had to make productivity concessions and BA now has some very demanding targets to make its short-haul operation profitable on a standalone basis over the next few years, much of which will inevitably have to be funded by staff productivity improvement,

BA is by no means being given an easy ride by IAG.

[Edited 2013-03-05 13:24:32]

User currently offlineRedd From Poland, joined Jan 2013, 96 posts, RR: 0
Reply 51, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 5289 times:

Quoting Gonzalo (Reply 39):
you need to ask your self "what am I doing wrong".

I agree, but once again it's up to Management to 'Manage/Lead' and create a working environment for employees to be happy. That will in turn make for good customer service.


"You don't lead by hitting people over the head-that's assault, not leadership." -General Dwight D. Eisenhower


User currently offlineGonzalo From Chile, joined Aug 2005, 1953 posts, RR: 2
Reply 52, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 5238 times:

Quoting AR385 (Reply 45):
And of course the Spanish government will come to IB´s help. Spain will never allow itself to loose direct connectivity with "the colonies".

Although I completely agree with you regarding the main issue ( the Spanish government will never allow IB going belly up ), I wonder where on Earth they will get : 1.- Political support for an "airline rescue" under the current economic disaster they are facing, and 2.- The money !!!

Rgds.
G.



80 Knots...V1...Rotate...Gear Up...DC-3 / EMB-110 / Fairchild-227 / Ab318-19-20 / B732 / B763
User currently offlineUALWN From Andorra, joined Jun 2009, 2676 posts, RR: 2
Reply 53, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 5170 times:

Quoting summa767 (Reply 44):
In the press release below, IB stated how IAG's board was made up: Board members now consist of six people with Spanish nationality, three Britons, two from the United States, one from Ireland, one from France and one from New Zealand

But the board (as most boards) just rubber stamps what the CEO proposes, so its composition is mostly irrelevant.

Quoting summa767 (Reply 44):
I am not surprised that some people make up their own facts to justify blaming IB's troubles on Spain's historical rivals.

You are the only one who are bringing up this anti-British crap. It just does not exist. How many times does this need to be repeated?

Quoting summa767 (Reply 44):
Lack of rigour is commonplace.

Indeed...

Quoting LHRFlyer (Reply 50):
Did whatever was agreed between Iberia management and the unions actually meet the savings target? If it did why an earth would IAG turn it down?

You tell me...



AT7/111/146/Avro/CRJ/CR9/EMB/ERJ/E75/F50/100/L15/DC9/D10/M8X/717/727/737/747/757/767/777/AB6/310/319/320/321/330/340/380
User currently offlineLHRFlyer From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2010, 801 posts, RR: 1
Reply 54, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 5158 times:

Quoting UALWN (Reply 53):
You tell me...

Because it didn't meet the target set by IAG.


User currently offlinesumma767 From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2004, 2520 posts, RR: 6
Reply 55, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 5132 times:

Quoting UALWN (Reply 53):
But the board (as most boards) just rubber stamps what the CEO proposes, so its composition is mostly irrelevant.

And the CEO is Irish! How many times does this have to be repeated!

Quoting UALWN (Reply 53):
You are the only one who are bringing up this anti-British crap. It just does not exist. How many times does this need to be repeated?

Of course it does exist. I have seen the pictures, of "British go home on screens and placards, heard the interviews, read teh tweets, seen the UK flag with the pirate signs on top. And there are a few people misconstruing facts to make it look as if BA is bleeding IB. The anti-British sentiment is plain clear. No point in you denying it.


User currently offlineicaro From Spain, joined Nov 2004, 227 posts, RR: 0
Reply 56, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 5059 times:

Quoting Redd (Reply 51):
I agree, but once again it's up to Management to 'Manage/Lead' and create a working environment for employees to be happy. That will in turn make for good customer service.

I could not agree any more.

Quoting LHRFlyer (Reply 50):
IAG bought bmi. Yes, it has been integrated into BA

And why didn't they buy it with their own money? Why did IB have to spend much needed cash in financing something that will only benefit BA? Why does IB have to finance all its expenses with their own money, why can´t they just use IAG's money as BA does?
Is that fair play?


User currently offlineU2380 From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2010, 321 posts, RR: 0
Reply 57, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 4966 times:

Quoting icaro (Reply 56):
And why didn't they buy it with their own money?

Because they don't have their 'own money'. Its the same company and the Iberia side of the company is decimating the profits that the BA operation is making. It's all just central reserves of money that happen to be associated with one side of the company.


User currently offlineicaro From Spain, joined Nov 2004, 227 posts, RR: 0
Reply 58, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 4948 times:

Quoting U2380 (Reply 57):
Because they don't have their 'own money'. Its the same company and the Iberia side of the company is decimating the profits that the BA operation is making. It's all just central reserves of money that happen to be associated with one side of the company.

They are two different airlines with their own money that happen to be owned by a parent company called IAG. They are two separate entities with their own resources, expenses, operating margins, etc...
Central reserves of money that happen to be associated with one side of the company??? I beg your pardon?


User currently offlineLHRFlyer From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2010, 801 posts, RR: 1
Reply 59, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 4913 times:

Quoting icaro (Reply 56):
And why didn't they buy it with their own money? Why did IB have to spend much needed cash in financing something that will only benefit BA? Why does IB have to finance all its expenses with their own money, why can´t they just use IAG's money as BA does?
Is that fair play?

Because BA has no authority to buy another airline. Those decisions are made by IAG. BA, like Iberia, is merely an operating subsidiary. There's no evidence that Iberia's cash reserves were used to fund the purchase of bmi. Like Iberia, BA has to fund all of its investment from its own resources and is responsible for raising its own finance.

BA has not been handed expansion via bmi on a plate. It has had to present a business plan that it can make its short-haul operation profitable to justify integrating bmi into BA, which will mean significant cost savings. As I said above, BA is not being given an easy ride by IAG and there were some very strong voices that bmi should have been kept separate as "BA Express".

The cold hard reality is that Iberia is bleeding money and if it wasn't for the backing of IAG it would have gone bankrupt by now.


User currently offlineU2380 From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2010, 321 posts, RR: 0
Reply 60, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 6 days ago) and read 4840 times:

Quoting icaro (Reply 58):
They are two separate entities with their own resources, expenses, operating margins, etc...

They operate as subsidies of IAG, neither are listed individually on stock markets and their financial performances are not reported as separate entities, merely as a breakdown of IAG's overall financial performance. Each have cash reserves as part of their operation within IAG.


User currently offlineBestWestern From Hong Kong, joined Sep 2000, 6958 posts, RR: 57
Reply 61, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 6 days ago) and read 4790 times:

I am someone who is working harder for less money in the same company to ensure survival. I am also paying higher taxes. Welcome to the recession. I also worked for an airline during 9-11 where we took a voluntary 10% paycut.

This conversation has become stupid. Iberia staff seem to think that BMI is the reason why Iberia is looking for paycuts from them. BMI or not, IB would be losing 3m a day.

Stop muddying the issues. The longer the strike continues, the more IB will need to cut to survive. The company cannot afford to pay the salaries you are seeking.



The world is really getting smaller these days
User currently offlineUALWN From Andorra, joined Jun 2009, 2676 posts, RR: 2
Reply 62, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 6 days ago) and read 4783 times:

Quoting summa767 (Reply 55):
And the CEO is Irish! How many times does this have to be repeated!

Why is that relevant?? He could be from Burkina Faso for all anybody cares! He was the CEO of "British" Airways! That's the "British" the IB guys are angry with. It's really not so hard to understand!

Quoting summa767 (Reply 55):
The anti-British sentiment is plain clear. No point in you denying it.

Anti British...Airways! Come on. Who holds a grudge with mom and pop in the East Midlands? It's ridiculous.



AT7/111/146/Avro/CRJ/CR9/EMB/ERJ/E75/F50/100/L15/DC9/D10/M8X/717/727/737/747/757/767/777/AB6/310/319/320/321/330/340/380
User currently onlineRyanairGuru From Australia, joined Oct 2006, 4732 posts, RR: 4
Reply 63, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 4666 times:

Quoting UALWN (Reply 62):
Anti British...Airways!

Well if that's the case then maybe they should be more clear.

From where I sit - far removed from this jingoistic xenophobia - Mr and Mrs Smith in Sunderland aren't going to see "British Go Home" and the British flag being defaced on the nightly news and think "oh, well they don't mean us. They're referring to the senior management of a company incorporated in Spain"

Quoting icaro (Reply 56):
Why did IB have to spend much needed cash in financing something that will only benefit BA?

You keep repeating this ad nauseam, but is there any actual evidence that money from the IB side supported the BD purchase? I'm assuming that if any did it was held in a joint account, and can say with almost 100% certainty that nobody in MAD was writing cheques to Lufthansa.

Quoting icaro (Reply 18):
The Spanish management team agreed to those in december and later found out that WW wouldn't allow them to offer those conditions and prefer to use the new labour law that allows cheap firings so the company will save more money.

I haven't been following the negotiations as closely as I should have been, but I'm assuming what happened here is that IB management agreed to less than was mandated by IAG. If that is the case, the IB management had NO authority, either actual or ostensible, to make the agreement. In that case the agreement is null and void. That is a very simple principle of law, and almost certainly isn't harbouring sinister sadism on the part of WW.



Worked Hard, Flew Right
User currently offlineAR385 From Mexico, joined Nov 2003, 5949 posts, RR: 30
Reply 64, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 4652 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting Gonzalo (Reply 52):
Although I completely agree with you regarding the main issue ( the Spanish government will never allow IB going belly up ), I wonder where on Earth they will get : 1.- Political support for an "airline rescue" under the current economic disaster they are facing, and 2.- The money !!!

Political support would probably come from the left. They are hell bent on rebutting everything the PP does, rightly, in my opinion. They are also on the "BA is dismantling IB under our noses camp." So at some point they´ll have to put their money where they are putting their mouth.

The money is not a problem so much as the regulations from the EU. I´m sure they´ll find a formula though.



MGGS
User currently offlinelightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 12444 posts, RR: 100
Reply 65, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 4533 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Does anyone have convenient links of a snanummary of IB's finances for say a decade prior to the merger? Including any 'help.'
.
Also, does anyone have a link to the striking union's English language web pages?
If they're not doing PR, then   . Well, its not planning ahead. So a link please.

Of note:
Spanish airline Iberia (IAG) said it found seats elsewhere for 95 percent of the 40,000 customers due to be affected by a strike this week,
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-0...h-told-not-to-draft-ba-pilots.html

Quoting BlueShamu330s (Reply 35):
if the situation arises that Iberia no longer has the resources to fund the required changes in future years, everyone at Iberia can kiss Iberia and their jobs for life adios. Vueling will become the new Iberia and everyone, not just those already planned to go, everyone will be joining the back of the unemployment queue.

I don't quite paint that dark of a picture. I suspect there will be some worth salvaging. But short haul would be Vueling (if not on BA).

Quoting icaro (Reply 37):
Losses don't come only from "high" salaries. They come from opening routes irresponsibly and bleeding money on those. They come from operating a not so efficient fleet that should have been modernized long ago. They come from not investing money in your product for years and letting competition offer much better service.

The issue is the airline unions haven't allowed the productivity required to avoid what is happening. Because of the cash burned... (including due to management mistakes) the pain will be high.

Quoting UALWN (Reply 62):
Who holds a grudge with mom and pop in the East Midlands? It's ridiculous.

Do you think that mom and pop is as likely to buy a Spanish vacation this year?

I would really like to know the change in daily losses for IAG due to the strike as well as for Spanish tax revenue.

Lightsaber



I've posted how many times?!?
User currently offlineUALWN From Andorra, joined Jun 2009, 2676 posts, RR: 2
Reply 66, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 4430 times:

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 65):
Does anyone have convenient links of a snanummary of IB's finances for say a decade prior to the merger? Including any 'help.'

Here: http://www.es.iairgroup.com/phoenix....html?c=240949&p=irol-reportsannual
The summary is that the IB group was profitable every year since 1996 to 2010, except for 2009.

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 65):
Do you think that mom and pop is as likely to buy a Spanish vacation this year?

I bet they are. They just won't fly IB. Not that they used to fly IB anyway...



AT7/111/146/Avro/CRJ/CR9/EMB/ERJ/E75/F50/100/L15/DC9/D10/M8X/717/727/737/747/757/767/777/AB6/310/319/320/321/330/340/380
User currently offlinesumma767 From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2004, 2520 posts, RR: 6
Reply 67, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 4401 times:

Quoting UALWN (Reply 62):
Why is that relevant?? He could be from Burkina Faso for all anybody cares! He was the CEO of "British" Airways! That's the "British" the IB guys are angry with.

He was the CEO of Air Lingus too. And yet when he was at BA, there was no anti-irish feeling among the many employees affected by the restructuring at BA. Different attitude.

Quoting UALWN (Reply 62):
Anti British...Airways!

You certainly won't fool me. And of course, i's not a grudge against individual "mom and pops", it's a more basic instinct.


User currently offlineUALWN From Andorra, joined Jun 2009, 2676 posts, RR: 2
Reply 68, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 4374 times:

Quoting summa767 (Reply 67):
there was no anti-irish feeling among the many employees affected by the restructuring at BA. Different attitude.

You are obsessed with this. There are no anti UK feelings here either!

Quoting summa767 (Reply 67):
You certainly won't fool me.
Quoting summa767 (Reply 67):
it's a more basic instinct.

This is insulting. But there's no point in arguing. You know how I feel. Heck, you know how all Spaniards feel. We are just a bunch of xenophobes. (I guess that's why Spain is #1 on number of foreign visitors.)

Or, maybe, it's just that you know those basic instincts just too well, and think everybody else shares them.... Pot, kettle...



AT7/111/146/Avro/CRJ/CR9/EMB/ERJ/E75/F50/100/L15/DC9/D10/M8X/717/727/737/747/757/767/777/AB6/310/319/320/321/330/340/380
User currently offlineUALWN From Andorra, joined Jun 2009, 2676 posts, RR: 2
Reply 69, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 4358 times:

Quoting summa767 (Reply 67):
He was the CEO of Air Lingus too. And yet when he was at BA, there was no anti-irish feeling among the many employees affected by the restructuring at BA. Different attitude.

By the way, there are no anti-Irish feelings either within the IB employees. So how is their attitude different from that of the BA employees?



AT7/111/146/Avro/CRJ/CR9/EMB/ERJ/E75/F50/100/L15/DC9/D10/M8X/717/727/737/747/757/767/777/AB6/310/319/320/321/330/340/380
User currently offlinesumma767 From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2004, 2520 posts, RR: 6
Reply 70, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 4360 times:

Quoting UALWN (Reply 68):
This is insulting. But there's no point in arguing

What is insulting is tryingti hide the truth: http://www.telecinco.es/informativos/economia/trabajadores-Iberia-Barajas_MDSIMA20130218_0438_4.jpg



It's plain enough. It's nationalistic, and not just anti-BA. You may fool yourself, but you won't fool anyone else.

[Edited 2013-03-05 23:14:33]

User currently offlineseahawk From Germany, joined May 2005, 595 posts, RR: 0
Reply 71, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 4335 times:

Iberia is destroying itself. I love the airline for its proud history, but currently it isone the way out. They do not have an image as a customer friendly airline and this is getting worse. The new Iberia Express product is a bad joke, compared to other network carriers in Europe. Seat pitch and on board services are a bad joke. Those I know who already had the pleasure of flying Iberia Express, seem to say it is like Ryanair, just with even more unfriendly crews. Where i work it is being considered to put them on the "book only in an emergency" list, just like Ryanair. Connecting via Madrid and Iberia is currently avoided if possible.

User currently offlineLHRFlyer From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2010, 801 posts, RR: 1
Reply 72, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 4195 times:

Quoting UALWN (Reply 66):
Here: http://www.es.iairgroup.com/phoenix....html?c=240949&p=irol-reportsannual
The summary is that the IB group was profitable every year since 1996 to 2010, except for 2009.

And the facts are:

a) The operating profit figures tell a different story

b) Without the backing of IAG, Iberia would be bankrupt as suppliers would have withdrawn support.


User currently offlineBestWestern From Hong Kong, joined Sep 2000, 6958 posts, RR: 57
Reply 73, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 4093 times:

Oh, and the Spanish economy has collapsed since then.

It makes no difference though - Iberia staff still think they are government employees who get paid excessively well regardless of the economic situation the company is in.



The world is really getting smaller these days
User currently offlineBlueShamu330s From UK - England, joined Sep 2001, 2790 posts, RR: 25
Reply 74, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 4099 times:

Quoting LHRFlyer (Reply 72):
a) The operating profit figures tell a different story

b) Without the backing of IAG, Iberia would be bankrupt as suppliers would have withdrawn support.

For 2012 alone:

British Airways: 295Million PROFIT.
Iberia: 896Million LOSS

One thing rarely, if ever, acknowledged on here by the Iberia defenders is that Iberia defaulted EIGHT times on its lending repayment obligations in 2012. As a stand alone company, I doubt the banks and institutions would have tolerated such financial delinquency.

That however, is not the end of the story. Those covenant breaches have raised charges of just short of 240 MILLION Euros which must be paid in full this year on top of their regular repayments.

Only two institutions have waived these breaches. Six are yet to decide. It would be in their own interest to waive aside also, but these are financial institutions with their own issues, so the outcome is far from clear.

The Iberia juggernaut continues rolling towards an ugly end. The bankruptcy bullet has been dodged for now, but there is no more family silver to sell off and with 808 Million, strike that, we must be down to 802 Million Euros left in the bank, time and money is fast running out. Take off the 240 Million default charges, then 3 million every day, then factor in the remaining strikes, it leaves Iberia management with very little to negotiate with.

Time is running out. People can taint this thread with nationalistic jingoism, but it's rather like drinking tea whilst the wolf is at the door.

Rgds



So I drive a 4x4. So what?! Tax the a$$ off me for it...oh, you already have... :-(
User currently offlineBongodog1964 From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2006, 3475 posts, RR: 3
Reply 75, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 3912 times:

Quoting icaro (Reply 56):
And why didn't they buy it with their own money? Why did IB have to spend much needed cash in financing something that will only benefit BA? Why does IB have to finance all its expenses with their own money, why can´t they just use IAG's money as BA does?
Is that fair play?

All the issued shares are for IAG, BA and IB no longer exist in investment terms. There is no BA money, and no IB money, it all belongs to IAG. The shareholders demand that their cash is used to best advantage, spend it on buying BMI and it will probably produce a positive return, spend it at IB and it will disappear down the black hole.

I an't quite see how IB workers feel that their jobs have been taken by BA. Whilst there are BA planes being maintained in Spain now, there aren't any IB ones being maintained in the UK are there ?
Also BA have not expanded their Latin America routes by ay great % since the merger, so their passengers aren't being redirected.

The overall problem is that whilst widespread airline competition came to the UK more than 20 years ago, other parts of Europe were far later on the scene. Even with the last BA/BASSA dispute I'm sure that BASSA whilst complaining loudly and trying to preserve their terms and conditions, had an understanding of the need to compete for passengers, and that the Government weren't going to come to their aid. I'm not sure that the IB protestors realise this yet.
As to the comments about social responsibility, layoffs vs early retirement etc. Social responsibility is unfortunately for Governments, and not in the main rfor employers. If an employer is too generous with pay offs, and especially with long term pension commitments the costs can be a drain for decades. Remember that the IB shareholders used the BA pension defecit as a huge lever to gain a far higher % of IAG than their income and routes otherwise warranted.


User currently offlinealfie1980 From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2013, 5 posts, RR: 0
Reply 76, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 3708 times:

Quoting summa767 (Reply 70):

Its anti BA management in IAG not anti British people, lets just be clear, Spanish people we have no issues or any old rivalries with any country in Europe, we get on with everybody.


User currently offlinelightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 12444 posts, RR: 100
Reply 77, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 3700 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting UALWN (Reply 66):
The summary is that the IB group was profitable every year since 1996 to 2010, except for 2009.

Thank you for the links. Nitpick, 2010 had a small operational loss too. Looking as the summary, IB's costs were ready to put them into this situation.

Note: The 2005 report has a nice overview early on.

And 2009 was pretty bad with 2008 a profit by a hen's tooth.

Quoting BlueShamu330s (Reply 74):
One thing rarely, if ever, acknowledged on here by the Iberia defenders is that Iberia defaulted EIGHT times on its lending repayment obligations in 2012. As a stand alone company, I doubt the banks and institutions would have tolerated such financial delinquency.

I knew of four of those, do you have links to the complete set?

Quoting BlueShamu330s (Reply 74):
Take off the 240 Million default charges, then 3 million every day, then factor in the remaining strikes, it leaves Iberia management with very little to negotiate with.

  

IAG must cut the bleeding and soon. These strikes are theater. They cannot hope to save all the jobs. What must be done is to reform IB so it has a chance.


Lightsaber



I've posted how many times?!?
User currently offlineBlueShamu330s From UK - England, joined Sep 2001, 2790 posts, RR: 25
Reply 78, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 3666 times:

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 77):
I knew of four of those, do you have links to the complete set?



The latest article was last week, March 1st, regarding an A340:

http://www.aviationnews-online.com/a...ovenant-on-a340-600-finance-lease/

Quote:


Latest News
IBERIA BREAKS COVENANT ON A340-600 FINANCE LEASE
March 1st, 2013 by Victoria
Buried in International Airlines Group’s annual report is the news that the group has informed its lenders that is has failed to meet one of the financial covenant on a finance lease for one A340-600, which has now technically become repayable on demand. Iberia has three A340-600s on finance leases.
The IAG annual report states: “The Group’s finance lease for one A340-600 is subject to financial covenants which are tested annually. The Group has informed its lenders that it had failed to meet one of the covenants for the year to December 31, 2012. As a result of this covenant breach, one finance lease has technically become repayable on demand and $85 million (€64 million) has been reclassified from noncurrent to current. On February 14, 2013 the Group obtained a waiver from the lessors.”
“The Group has received notice from the lessor that two of the eight lending institutions have waived the covenant breach. The remaining institutions have provided positive feedback and are expecting their risk committees to formally waive the breach. It is expected for the lessor to issue a formal waiver by March 15, 2013.”
Quote:
Moody's has downgraded the Class A enhanced secured notes on Iberia’s 2004 bond issue to Baa1 from A2.

Rgds



So I drive a 4x4. So what?! Tax the a$$ off me for it...oh, you already have... :-(
User currently offlineBongodog1964 From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2006, 3475 posts, RR: 3
Reply 79, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 3587 times:

Quoting alfie1980 (Reply 76):
Its anti BA management in IAG not anti British people, lets just be clear, Spanish people we have no issues or any old rivalries with any country in Europe, we get on with everybody.

No issues with anyone ? So its all fine with Gibraltar then and you permanantly respect the residents wish to remain British.

As to its all about the IAG management and not anti British, perhaps rent a mob needs to be more careful when they are painting their protest banners, as they presently show a clear British out message.


User currently offlinePDPsol From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 1088 posts, RR: 6
Reply 80, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 3529 times:

Quoting BlueShamu330s (Reply 78):
The Group has informed its lenders that it had failed to meet one of the covenants for the year to December 31, 2012. As a result of this covenant breach, one finance lease has technically become repayable on demand and $85 million (€64 million) has been reclassified from noncurrent to current. On February 14, 2013 the Group obtained a waiver from the lessors.”
“The Group has received notice from the lessor that two of the eight lending institutions have waived the covenant breach. The remaining institutions have provided positive feedback and are expecting their risk committees to formally waive the breach. It is expected for the lessor to issue a formal waiver by March 15, 2013.”
Quoting BlueShamu330s (Reply 74):
One thing rarely, if ever, acknowledged on here by the Iberia defenders is that Iberia defaulted EIGHT times on its lending repayment obligations in 2012. As a stand alone company, I doubt the banks and institutions would have tolerated such financial delinquency.

OK, newsflash, this is not all that unusual, just because a borrower "blows" a covenant in its credit agreement, or in this case, its operating lessor agreement, it does not mean the borrower will enter into bankruptcy.

Here in the United States, borrowers negotiate waivers from creditors for "blowing" covenants everyday. Of course, it is a negotiation, just like any other negotiation.

If you read the entire note, you will see IAG is expecting a formal waiver from its lessors by mid-month.

This is "no big deal" in the context of corporate lending world. These lessors have extensive knowledge of IB and its operations and would not agree to waive a "blown" covenant without a decent expectation of the carrier's continued creditworthiness and financial position. Again, the creditors that are a party to the operating lease agreement will, of course receive something in return for waiving the blown covenant. This is simply the market at work...


User currently offlineBongodog1964 From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2006, 3475 posts, RR: 3
Reply 81, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 3492 times:

Quoting PDPsol (Reply 81):
This is "no big deal" in the context of corporate lending world

However every time a covenant is broken a waiver has to be requested and negotiated. Not only does this cost money in fees, but it can also result in the credit rating being downgraded. Each time the credit rating goes down, the cost of borrowing edges up by a fraction of a %. One post here mentions that they have seen their debt downgraded from A2 to Baa1. This will affect their future borrowing costs.


User currently offlinebennett123 From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2004, 7213 posts, RR: 3
Reply 82, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 3485 times:

Regardless of what anyone may say, anyone seeing the images in reply 3 and 70 will conclude that Brits are not welcome.

Given how big Spain's tourist industry is, that is not a smart move.

Furthermore, given current events, (of which this is part) would someone book IB, unless there was no option, or IB suddenly becomes a lot cheaper than FR/U2 etc.

Folks do not generally pick an airline for the excitement factor.


User currently offlinePDPsol From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 1088 posts, RR: 6
Reply 83, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 3475 times:

Quoting Bongodog1964 (Reply 82):
However every time a covenant is broken a waiver has to be requested and negotiated. Not only does this cost money in fees, but it can also result in the credit rating being downgraded. Each time the credit rating goes down, the cost of borrowing edges up by a fraction of a %. One post here mentions that they have seen their debt downgraded from A2 to Baa1. This will affect their future borrowing costs.

No one is debating that. IAG has certainly needed to negotiate something in return for obtaining a waiver from its creditors.

A "blown" covenant is typically an indicator of increased borrower risk and, of course, typically results in higher borrowing costs associated with that enhanced risk. However, it by no means indicates the borrower needs to enter bankruptcy protection.

The key piece of information in the note is that IAG is receiving waivers [negotiated of course] from the creditors that are a party to its operating lease agreement. These creditors would never have negotiated a waiver without having some degree of confidence IB will continue to be a creditworthy borrower, regardless of the quality of the assets that secure the operating lease agreement, in this case, the A340-600.

Corporate borrowers blow through covenants everyday, especially here in the United States...


User currently offlineTYCOON From United States of America, joined Feb 2007, 379 posts, RR: 3
Reply 84, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 3434 times:

I just booked this morning a business class ticket from ORY to LAX via MAD with Iberia in July.... call me crazy, mad, adventurous, masochistic or just a lover of the airline industry... I only hope things settle down by July!!!

User currently offlineBlueShamu330s From UK - England, joined Sep 2001, 2790 posts, RR: 25
Reply 85, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 3431 times:

Quoting PDPsol (Reply 81):
This is "no big deal" in the context of corporate lending world. These lessors have extensive knowledge of IB and its operations and would not agree to waive a "blown" covenant without a decent expectation of the carrier's continued creditworthiness and financial position.

That is the point. It is a given amongst those close to the situation that were it not for IAG (that big, bad company run by an Irish bully, robbing Iberia of its lifeblood), a stand alone Iberia in its present situation would quite possibly not have been given any waivers and aircraft could have been winging themselves back to lessors quicker than you could shout "British go home."


Quote:
Quote:
Moody's has downgraded the Class A enhanced secured notes on Iberia’s 2004 bond issue to Baa1 from A2.

Rgds



So I drive a 4x4. So what?! Tax the a$$ off me for it...oh, you already have... :-(
User currently offlinegoosebayguy From United Kingdom, joined Sep 2009, 372 posts, RR: 0
Reply 86, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 3365 times:

Iberia is beginning to look like Sabena. Sad to say.

User currently offlineGonzalo From Chile, joined Aug 2005, 1953 posts, RR: 2
Reply 87, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 3336 times:

Quoting TYCOON (Reply 85):
I just booked this morning a business class ticket from ORY to LAX via MAD with Iberia in July.... call me crazy, mad, adventurous, masochistic or just a lover of the airline industry... I only hope things settle down by July!!!

You are certainly an optimistic !!!! But you never know.... my family booked tickets for a trip MVD-SCL-ANF-SCL-MVD with a "perfectly good and healthy airline known as PU ", paid the full price..... and two weeks later the airline just vanished... At least in your case, if something goes wrong, you can not claim to be surprised.... Anyway, I wish you the best of luck and a nice and comfy flight to LAX.

Quoting bennett123 (Reply 83):
Regardless of what anyone may say, anyone seeing the images in reply 3 and 70 will conclude that Brits are not welcome.

Well, to be honest, the Brits are not doing the best moves for their public image :

IAG announced the distribution of 2,6 million shares with a value of 7,57 million Euros, among 8 of its executive directors ( almost 1 million Euros to each )....the timing for this announcement is horrible, and the picture of Willie Walsh in the article will definitely not help with the current situation.

http://economia.elpais.com/economia/.../actualidad/1362572104_874128.html

Rgds.
G.



80 Knots...V1...Rotate...Gear Up...DC-3 / EMB-110 / Fairchild-227 / Ab318-19-20 / B732 / B763
User currently offlineLHRFlyer From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2010, 801 posts, RR: 1
Reply 88, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 3311 times:

Quoting Gonzalo (Reply 88):
Well, to be honest, the Brits are not doing the best moves for their public image :

IAG announced the distribution of 2,6 million shares with a value of 7,57 million Euros, among 8 of its executive directors ( almost 1 million Euros to each )....the timing for this announcement is horrible, and the picture of Willie Walsh in the article will definitely not help with the current situation.

http://economia.elpais.com/economia/....html

They are conditional share awards based on the performance of the company.

http://www.iairgroup.com/phoenix.zht...rticle_Print&ID=1792650&highlight=


User currently offlineTYCOON From United States of America, joined Feb 2007, 379 posts, RR: 3
Reply 89, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 3284 times:

Thanks Gonzalo... I too had a ticket on PU from MVD to GIG last January, but the airline went belly up way before the date of travel... and my travel insurance via my credit card only covered half the cost...
So I was "forced" to book a PDP-AEP-GIG flight with your favourite airline Aerolineas Argentinas!  
I take comfort that if things remain bad (or get worse) by date of travel, perhaps I will be offered a BA flight via LHR or an AA flight ... though I would prefer IB.


User currently offlineclydenairways From Ireland, joined Jan 2007, 1202 posts, RR: 0
Reply 90, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 3295 times:

Quoting Bongodog1964 (Reply 80):
No issues with anyone ? So its all fine with Gibraltar then and you permanantly respect the residents wish to remain British.

So now we have Gibraltar being brought into this discussion now   This thread is turning into farce.


User currently offlinephxa340 From United States of America, joined Mar 2012, 835 posts, RR: 1
Reply 91, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 3266 times:

I have to go with everyone else on this one ... when the Unions waved anti-British flags they were the ones who put the nationalistic spin on the strikes.

I know there is no sense in debating with the Iberia supporters on this one, but only Iberia is to blame because of their problems. With that said, riding in the A340-600 J class was hands down one of the top flying experiences I have had. Great airplane and fantastic crew.

[Edited 2013-03-06 10:43:47 by SA7700]

User currently offlinesumma767 From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2004, 2520 posts, RR: 6
Reply 92, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 3242 times:

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 77):
Thank you for the links. Nitpick, 2010 had a small operational loss too. Looking as the summary, IB's costs were ready to put them into this situation.

I am glad that you looked at the figures, and see the relevance of the operational profit (sadly, some people fail to see this, and insist that "a profit is a profit" even when it's a result of selling assets, such such stakes that IB has sold in Amadeus)

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 77):
And 2009 was pretty bad with 2008 a profit by a hen's tooth.

And if you look further, you will see that they only just managed the tiny a profit because third party maintenance gave them a €50m. The actual transport of passengers and cargo, i,e flying has not given Iberia a profit since 2007.
And yet, you have people stating that IB was a perfectly healthy airline until it merged with BA, and going out on demonstrations with the "British go home" on the Spanish flag.
If only they saw the real source of Iberia's problems..


User currently offlinealfie1980 From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2013, 5 posts, RR: 0
Reply 93, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 3177 times:

Quoting SCL767 (Reply 12):
Quoting Bongodog1964 (Reply 80):

No issues with anyone ? So its all fine with Gibraltar then and you permanantly respect the residents wish to remain British.

As to its all about the IAG management and not anti British, perhaps rent a mob needs to be more careful when they are painting their protest banners, as they presently show a clear British out message.

Excuse me, I dont think Gibraltar should be brought in this conversation as it has nothing to do. If you think that us Spaniards are anti British then I am sorry that you feel that way, we are a country that has opened their arms to the tourism, no matter from which country they come from.


User currently offlinealfie1980 From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2013, 5 posts, RR: 0
Reply 94, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 3160 times:

Quoting Gonzalo (Reply 88):
You are certainly an optimistic !!!! But you never know.... my family booked tickets for a trip MVD-SCL-ANF-SCL-MVD with a "perfectly good and healthy airline known as PU ", paid the full price..... and two weeks later the airline just vanished... At least in your case, if something goes wrong, you can not claim to be surprised.... Anyway, I wish you the best of luck and a nice and comfy flight to LAX.

Maybe your family had a bad experience flying on Iberia I never had. I do at leat 50 flights with them a year. I begin to feel like some of you will be actually very happy with Iberia going down how sad


User currently offlinelightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 12444 posts, RR: 100
Reply 95, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 3126 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting TYCOON (Reply 85):

I just booked this morning a business class ticket from ORY to LAX via MAD with Iberia in July.... call me crazy, mad, adventurous, masochistic or just a lover of the airline industry... I only hope things settle down by July!!!

You just convinced me that when you and your significant other are wearing black leather, you are *not* the one holding the whip.

Quoting BlueShamu330s (Reply 86):
Quote:
Quote:
Moody's has downgraded the Class A enhanced secured notes on Iberia’s 2004 bond issue to Baa1 from A2.

Rgds

Thank you for your continued information. This is becoming interesting...


Lightsaber



I've posted how many times?!?
User currently offlineBongodog1964 From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2006, 3475 posts, RR: 3
Reply 96, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 3079 times:

Quoting alfie1980 (Reply 76):
Its anti BA management in IAG not anti British people, lets just be clear, Spanish people we have no issues or any old rivalries with any country in Europe, we get on with everybody.
Quoting alfie1980 (Reply 93):
Excuse me, I dont think Gibraltar should be brought in this conversation as it has nothing to do. If you think that us Spaniards are anti British then I am sorry that you feel that way, we are a country that has opened their arms to the tourism, no matter from which country they come from.

You clearly stated that the Spanish peopledon't have any issues with any other Country in Europe, I replied with the Gibraltar question, and you immediately flamed out and proved that your original statement was not true.
Perhaps that is the real reason behind the anti British banners   


User currently offlineAR385 From Mexico, joined Nov 2003, 5949 posts, RR: 30
Reply 97, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 2952 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

The results and suggestions by the mediator accepted two weeksa go by both IB and the unions has come out. The proposals are non-binding. Key points:

1) Layoffs to be 3,141 which is 16% of the workforce insteas of the 3,800 19% of the workforce proposed by IB.
2) A 7% salary cut for ground personnel and a 14% cut for cabin crew and pilots.
3) Salaries to remain frozen across the board until the end of 2015.
4) Of the 3,141 cuts, 2,226 will come from ground personnel, 627 from cabin crew, and 258 form the pilots.
5) All of these cuts are being proposed through pre-retirement and with the "ERE" law in place in IB since 2001, not the latest labor "ERE" scheme used in Spain.

Is this reasonable? Will IAG go with this? will the unions? Is it too little too late?

http://economia.elpais.com/economia/.../actualidad/1362568913_518276.html



MGGS
User currently offlineLJ From Netherlands, joined Nov 1999, 4367 posts, RR: 0
Reply 98, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 2759 times:

Quoting clydenairways (Reply 31):

I think your view on using the Vueling AOC is a good suggestion that makes sense.
With the way things are going at the moment i can't see any end in sight and it's getting to the stage where IAG will have to consider winding IB down.
After that in a similar situation to the aftermath of SR and SN, IAG could start a new Iberia using the Vuelling operating certificate like how the Crossair AOC was used for Swiss, and the DAT AOC was used for Brussels Airlines.

Don't expect a Swissair/Sabena construction. Unlike Swissair and Sabena, IB does have a domestic competitor which will probably sue the Spanish government if they would give all the current lucrative IB traffic rights to a new entity (I would think that UX would probably be interested in GRU, GIG, BOG and UIO). In addition, both Swissair and Sabena used local multinationals to provide part of the financing and came out much smaller than they were prior to bankruptcy. For some reason I don't see none of this happening for IB.


User currently offlineBongodog1964 From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2006, 3475 posts, RR: 3
Reply 99, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 2670 times:

Quoting AR385 (Reply 97):

1) Layoffs to be 3,141 which is 16% of the workforce insteas of the 3,800 19% of the workforce proposed by IB.
2) A 7% salary cut for ground personnel and a 14% cut for cabin crew and pilots.
3) Salaries to remain frozen across the board until the end of 2015.
4) Of the 3,141 cuts, 2,226 will come from ground personnel, 627 from cabin crew, and 258 form the pilots.
5) All of these cuts are being proposed through pre-retirement and with the "ERE" law in place in IB since 2001, not the latest labor "ERE" scheme used in Spain.

Is this reasonable? Will IAG go with this? will the unions? Is it too little too late?

The one that sticks out to me is no5, whilst the others are a few % away from IAG's stance, It might be that the cost difference between redundancy and retirement with an instant pension is huge.

Any Spanish experts here who know ?


User currently offlineGonzalo From Chile, joined Aug 2005, 1953 posts, RR: 2
Reply 100, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 2650 times:

Quoting alfie1980 (Reply 94):
Maybe your family had a bad experience flying on Iberia I never had.

Your answers are here :

Quoting Gonzalo (Reply 39):
My wife flew SCL-MAD with IB once.... and never repeated the experience, even when sometimes the LA fares are higher.
Quoting Gonzalo (Reply 39):
According to my wife's experience, and several others who told me basically the same ( all of them Spanish speakers ), the problem is not the language. Is the attitude. Have you ever felt the sensation of, despite having paid for a service, you are treated like if the provider of that service is doing a biiiiig favour to you ? Well, imagine that for +12 hours....
Quoting AR385 (Reply 97):
Is this reasonable? Will IAG go with this? will the unions? Is it too little too late?

Well, depending on the side of the wall you are standing, the answers can be NO/YES/NO/YES, or the opposite.    
The problem is, like many said here before, the clock is ticking for IB, and the bomb is more in the unions hands than in the IAG managers.... I'm sure WW sleeps like a baby every night, and I can hardly say the same about the union leaders.

Rgds.
G.



80 Knots...V1...Rotate...Gear Up...DC-3 / EMB-110 / Fairchild-227 / Ab318-19-20 / B732 / B763
User currently offlinelightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 12444 posts, RR: 100
Reply 101, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 5 days ago) and read 2561 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting summa767 (Reply 92):
And if you look further, you will see that they only just managed the tiny a profit because third party maintenance gave them a €50m. The actual transport of passengers and cargo, i,e flying has not given Iberia a profit since 2007.

   I believe you. I didn't dig that deep and the numbers looked bad. I can only imagine the muck found in a true 'deep dive' accounting...

That has to end. I'm sorry the employees will feel the pain, but it is time to run IB as a business.

Quoting summa767 (Reply 92):
And yet, you have people stating that IB was a perfectly healthy airline until it merged with BA, and going out on demonstrations with the "British go home" on the Spanish flag.
If only they saw the real source of Iberia's problems..

  

Quoting AR385 (Reply 97):
1) Layoffs to be 3,141 which is 16% of the workforce insteas of the 3,800 19% of the workforce proposed by IB.

I would like to know how that Layoff difference was arrived at...

Quoting AR385 (Reply 97):
5) All of these cuts are being proposed through pre-retirement and with the "ERE" law in place in IB since 2001, not the latest labor "ERE" scheme used in Spain.

What is the cost difference?

Lightsaber



I've posted how many times?!?
User currently offlineAR385 From Mexico, joined Nov 2003, 5949 posts, RR: 30
Reply 102, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 2506 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 101):
What is the cost difference?

With the current legislation, when the employee is fired, the employee has a right to receive up to 20 days of salary per year worked. However, this cannot exceed a total amount that equals the equivalent of a total of 270 days of salary.

Under the legislation proposed by the mediator, the employee gets a month´s salary per year worked, without a cap on the total amount received.

You can see how this can be a potentially more massive amount of indemnizations for IB compared to the amounts it is currently required by law to give.

More info. here:

http://www.lareformalaboral.es/la-reforma-laboral-ERE.asp



MGGS
User currently offlineUALWN From Andorra, joined Jun 2009, 2676 posts, RR: 2
Reply 103, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 2502 times:

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 101):
I can only imagine the muck found in a true 'deep dive' accounting...

What muck? Do you know anything we don't know? Do you expect to find anything different from what you'd find in the books of BA? Or AF? Or DL?



AT7/111/146/Avro/CRJ/CR9/EMB/ERJ/E75/F50/100/L15/DC9/D10/M8X/717/727/737/747/757/767/777/AB6/310/319/320/321/330/340/380
User currently offlinelightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 12444 posts, RR: 100
Reply 104, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 2477 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting AR385 (Reply 102):
Under the legislation proposed by the mediator, the employee gets a month´s salary per year worked, without a cap on the total amount received.

Wow. That is generous severance.

Quoting UALWN (Reply 103):
What muck? Do you know anything we don't know? Do you expect to find anything different from what you'd find in the books of BA? Or AF? Or DL?

A little dive through IB's accounting showed they really were eating away at their assets. Usually, when an airline is having trouble, they hide losses. So if you imply BA, AF, or DL are losing money in reality, than yes, it would be different. Compared to the worst years of DL? No. But they went bankrupt!

I barely went through IB's annual reports and noted they were really losing money in many of the past years. e.g., the 'maintenance credit' in 2008 to eek into the black. What this means, and this is true with any struggling company, is that the book value of IB was probably overstated hence the recent charges.

Eventually charge offs and 'muck' balance out.

Lightsaber



I've posted how many times?!?
User currently offlineUALWN From Andorra, joined Jun 2009, 2676 posts, RR: 2
Reply 105, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 2421 times:

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 104):
A little dive through IB's accounting showed they really were eating away at their assets.

But this is not what you said:

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 101):
I can only imagine the muck found in a true 'deep dive' accounting...

Again, what would you expect to find? And why? Are you accusing IB of cooking the books, perhaps?



AT7/111/146/Avro/CRJ/CR9/EMB/ERJ/E75/F50/100/L15/DC9/D10/M8X/717/727/737/747/757/767/777/AB6/310/319/320/321/330/340/380
User currently onlineRyanairGuru From Australia, joined Oct 2006, 4732 posts, RR: 4
Reply 106, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 2370 times:

Quoting UALWN (Reply 105):
Again, what would you expect to find?

I think what Lightsaber is saying is that in one year he found that IB made a loss on flying, but was able to show a profit overall because of maintenance, and in light of that one could look at other years and maybe find similar instances where Iberia airline operations were loss making, but the overall figure looked rosy enough.

This isn't limited to IB, you are right in that much. Last year Qantas made a profit, but Qantas Airways was loss making. Jetstar and Frequent Flyer were sufficiently profitable to give the group a positive figure overall. The difference, of course, is that Qantas have settled their labor issues, domestic flying is profitable and they are implementing a strategy to return international flying to profit by 2016.

Talking of which, I wonder if a Joyce style grounding is in the works. It shook QF up.

Quoting UALWN (Reply 105):
Are you accusing IB of cooking the books

No he isn't, he is merely pointing out that Iberia Airlines was loss making in years when its supporters are claiming it was profitable. Asset sales, for example, can only hide so many problems for so long.



Worked Hard, Flew Right
User currently offlinelightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 12444 posts, RR: 100
Reply 107, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 2288 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting UALWN (Reply 105):
But this is not what you said:

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 101):
I can only imagine the muck found in a true 'deep dive' accounting...

Again, what would you expect to find? And why? Are you accusing IB of cooking the books, perhaps?

They lost money in 2008 flying but covered it up with a maintenance transaction. I consider that 'Muck.' Trying to hide losses with either one time transactions or with other business units.

What I saw was a company struggling to show profits in the good years and now in trouble. Its an airline, the profit/loss of the airline should be distinct from other operations. This isn't being done with the skill or duration of Pan Am who milked the hotels until they had to be sold... But it isn't the first time we've seen it in the industry either. Read the book "Skygods" on how this practice, if allowed to continue, can destroy an airline.

FWIW, I found the same things in EK's 2007, 2008, and 2009 reports but not now. For a few years it isn't a big deal. I wasn't aware of RyianAirGuru's reference to QF, but these things happen.

It is much easier to read through an EK annual report to see which arm of the business earns what. The same with Starbucks, or any other numbers run corporation. The IB annual reports do not read like a numbers run company but rather more like a real estate holding company. That typically means more 'elasticity' and room for surprises or as I called it 'Muck.'

I'm saying IB needs to be manged better and operated more like a business. I say this for I wish them to thrive.

For example, I couldn't find any benchmarking in IB's annual report. That is one of the first thing after the introduction one finds in an annual report of a numbers run corporation. Ok, in EK's its after about 20 pages, but then there is DETAIL! With an EK annual report one can see money flowing in and out and where and even guess the velocity of the money. Which means its tracked and thus reacted to. IB? No such impression. WN?    B6    AA? Getting there. US's reports have improved dramatically over the years. DL's made a nice change over the years.

It is great for each airline to have its own personality. But they must know their business and convey some of that through the annual report.


Lightsaber



I've posted how many times?!?
User currently offlineLutfi From China, joined Sep 2000, 759 posts, RR: 0
Reply 108, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 2224 times:

Of course, another reason why the lenders agreed to the covenant bust is that what choice do they have? Remarketing an A346 is hard. Now, if they had been B773ER, the banks might have been tougher with IAG/ IB...

In the past I dealt with IB. Good people, but a very strong "NIH" (Not Invented Here) attitude. E.g. despite being shareholders in Amadeus, they only used Amadeus Reservations, and had their own in house built inventory management & check in systems.

Favourite quote was from a PhD in operations research working at IB (this was 10 years ago) He presented their aircraft evaluation model. It was amazing, best I've seen (monte carlo simulation, correlated variables, great stuff) He then sighed, and said "but then we just buy airbus anyway"


User currently offlineLJ From Netherlands, joined Nov 1999, 4367 posts, RR: 0
Reply 109, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 2120 times:

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 104):
Quoting AR385 (Reply 102):
Under the legislation proposed by the mediator, the employee gets a month´s salary per year worked, without a cap on the total amount received.

Wow. That is generous severance.

It's not if you compare that to the rest of the EU. In The Netherlands this was the minimum untill 1 year ago (currently 0.5 month per worked year) though in many Dutch industries this is still the norm (in fact the number of years you work over 45 count double). AFAIK similar severance legislation is in effect in Germany and Belgium. I don't know abouot France, but I've been told it's more generous than the Dutch syset


User currently offline1400mph From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2013, 700 posts, RR: 0
Reply 110, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 2056 times:

Seems obvious that reform is required at IB and under normal circumstances one would expect and withstand the industrial action as it is just part of the process.

However, the mood of the Spanish people is understandably at an 'incendiary' level. Those Spanish workers at IB therefore are in no mood to have their airline reformed like this let alone by a foreigner no matter how necessary for its very survival.

That is why we are seeing this' grasping at straws' approach. Willie Walsh is an easy target when you just don't want to face reality and that could be fatal for them.

What is the future for the Spanish economy if its workers continue in this vein ?

Like others have said IB isn't exactly the bench mark setter for quality in the airline industry either.

I am totally aware of the advantages of a joint BA and IB but considering the above and what could be to come I would prefer it if BA and IB were affiliated just at the alliance, joint venture etc level.


User currently offlineBongodog1964 From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2006, 3475 posts, RR: 3
Reply 111, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 1984 times:

Quoting AR385 (Reply 102):
With the current legislation, when the employee is fired, the employee has a right to receive up to 20 days of salary per year worked. However, this cannot exceed a total amount that equals the equivalent of a total of 270 days of salary.

Under the legislation proposed by the mediator, the employee gets a month´s salary per year worked, without a cap on the total amount received.

Even the new scheme looks potentially generous by UK standards, Our state minimum is based on age and years worked.
Under 43 years old and you get one weeks pay for every year worked
Over 43 and its 1 1/2 weeks pay for every year worked
The weekly wage figure is capped at £430:

I.e. a 45 year old with 20 years service earning more than £22360 per year is entitled to 20 x 1.5 x £430.

Of course some employers have more generous arrangements, in general however they are far less generous than they were 10 or 20 years ago.


User currently offlinesumma767 From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2004, 2520 posts, RR: 6
Reply 112, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 1969 times:

Quoting 1400mph (Reply 110):
What is the future for the Spanish economy if its workers continue in this vein ?

The truth is that many other companies have already slimmed down. Many people in Spain were employed on a string on temporary contracts anyway, so employment was lost very fast, and particularly in construction.

There is of course a downward pressure on wages, as Spain undergoes an internal devaluation in order to improve competitiveness (being hindered by the Euro, a currency devaluation is no option).
I am sure that Spain has a good economic future. If anything, the crisis has shaken many businesses into trying harder. Exports are slowly rising, and the links with a growing Latin america will increasingly be important. The country has great infrastructure and has the appeal for tourism. Apart from the traditional visitors from northern Europe, the Russians are coming in larger and larger numbers (just see how the frequencies have increased to the Med year on year: This year even Vueling is flying from Alicante to Russia).
But progress will be slow, and with the huge unemployment that is leaving a hole generation badly affected, it will take a while to get there.
Madrid will still be a gateway to LatAm from Europe and beyond. Iberia can continue being the most important player in that, but of course, it does have to be competitive. I am confident that it will get there.


User currently offline1400mph From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2013, 700 posts, RR: 0
Reply 113, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 1828 times:

Quoting summa767 (Reply 112):
Exports are slowly rising, and the links with a growing Latin america will increasingly be important.

Well yes especially now Latam has confirmed Oneworld membership.

Quoting summa767 (Reply 112):
Madrid will still be a gateway to LatAm from Europe and beyond. Iberia can continue being the most important player in that, but of course, it does have to be competitive. I am confident that it will get there.

IB does have loads of potential agreed...as long as they can weather the storm.


User currently offlinealfie1980 From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2013, 5 posts, RR: 0
Reply 114, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 1675 times:

Quoting Bongodog1964 (Reply 96):
You clearly stated that the Spanish peopledon't have any issues with any other Country in Europe, I replied with the Gibraltar question, and you immediately flamed out and proved that your original statement was not true.
Perhaps that is the real reason behind the anti British banners  

As I said we do not have an issue with Gibraltar, don't forget 99.99% of the people in Gibraltar have a second home in Sotogrande (Cadiz) and we do not have an issue... I have been living in the UK for 10 years, grew up here, my grandmother was British Gibraltar was never an issue nor something people talk about. I cannot speak for the whole of the country.


Top Of Page
Forum Index

This topic is archived and can not be replied to any more.

Printer friendly format

Similar topics:More similar topics...
EK On MAD T4 posted Thu Jun 10 2010 08:20:48 by bedo
AM-B772 APR 30 In PVG Stormed By Medical Workers posted Sun May 3 2009 01:46:04 by MayaviaERJ190
JK 717 Parked At MAD's T4 posted Thu Sep 11 2008 12:18:55 by Embajador3
Could MEA's A330 Be Taken By Gulf Air? posted Mon Aug 11 2008 13:05:32 by OD-BWH
MAD T4 And T4S, Has The Investment Been Worth It? posted Fri May 23 2008 01:06:41 by JMULAH
Will TAM A345s Be Taken By SAA In Future? posted Mon Apr 7 2008 22:51:51 by Dennys
Airline Employees Manifesting In MAD T4 Today posted Tue Apr 25 2006 08:59:15 by 767-332ER
Gate Locations At MAD T4 posted Sun Feb 12 2006 03:51:14 by Simairlinenet
First Flight From MAD T4 posted Tue Jan 31 2006 20:59:02 by Bullpitt
When Will MAD T4 & T4S Become Operational posted Sun Sep 18 2005 17:09:25 by 767-332ER