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TSA To Start Allowing Small Pocket Knives Onboard  
User currently offlinetugger From United States of America, joined Apr 2006, 5523 posts, RR: 8
Posted (1 year 5 months 4 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 11181 times:

The TSA has made changes that now will allow small pocket knives on board passengers aircraft. The FA Unions have protested that it increases danger to those on board the aircraft and want the change rescinded.

I for one think it a sound decision and one that will not truly increase the danger on board (even the unions admit that tsuch knives pose little or no danger to pilots while flying).

Quote:
The Transportation Security Administration announced Tuesday that U.S. airline passengers will soon be allowed to carry small knives in their carry-on bags, a move that prompted swift condemnation from a flight attendants union.

The union for Southwest Airlines flight attendants called the decision "dangerous" and "designed to make the lives of TSA staff easier, but not make flights safer."

The changes were made public by TSA Administrator John Pistole during an aviation conference in New York.

Starting April 25, passengers going through U.S. airports can bring on board Swiss Army-type knives -- specifically, ones with blades no longer than 2.36 inches.

This marks the first time such knives have been allowed on board since security was heavily increased in the aftermath of the Sept. 11, 2001, terror attacks.

Pistole told the audience that TSA screeners at the Los Angeles International Airport alone seized roughly 47 such knives a day over the last three months of 2012, according to Air Transportation World.

"Frankly, I don't want TSA agents to be delayed by these," he said.

The agency said the changes were made as part of its "overall risk-based security approach" and to align with the international standards and those of European countries.
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2013/03/05/tsa-allows-knives-on-board/

Also now allowed will be lacrosse sticks, ski poles and small, souvenir baseball bats.

Tugg


I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. -W. Shatner
139 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 25175 posts, RR: 48
Reply 1, posted (1 year 5 months 4 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 11142 times:

The change is simply to better align US screening policy with those of our partner nations which do allow things like smaller Swiss army knives.

More interesting will be come January 1st, 2014 when the EU and most Asian nations remove the liquid restrictions.



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlinejfklganyc From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 3449 posts, RR: 5
Reply 2, posted (1 year 5 months 4 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 11130 times:

Why?

Why allow a knife on board? Just for the heck of it?


User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7893 posts, RR: 52
Reply 3, posted (1 year 5 months 4 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 11130 times:

Wow a step in the right direction, I wonder if this is the start of some more common sense things to come...


Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlineytz From Canada, joined Jun 2009, 1990 posts, RR: 24
Reply 4, posted (1 year 5 months 4 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 11114 times:

The 9/11 hijackers had box cutters.

A 2.36" blade is still substantial enough to cause serious injury. Forget terrorism. There will be people getting stabbed during simple fisticuffs. And there is zero reason, anyone will need one in flight.

I'd rather they ease up on all that food and liquid rules over this.


User currently offlinetugger From United States of America, joined Apr 2006, 5523 posts, RR: 8
Reply 5, posted (1 year 5 months 4 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 11106 times:

Quoting jfklganyc (Reply 2):
Why allow a knife on board? Just for the heck of it?

Because many, many people carry one with them all the time. I always used to and often still do "in public" because they are very useful and cars key just don't always work.

Quoting ytz (Reply 4):
There will be people getting stabbed during simple fisticuffs.

That's not going to happen. Why would it suddenly begin to happen now when it didn't happen before? Why not wait to see if it is an actual problem rather than just ban them? Otherwise we should ban everything that might possibly be harmful to others.

Tugg

[Edited 2013-03-05 13:29:15]


I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. -W. Shatner
User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7893 posts, RR: 52
Reply 6, posted (1 year 5 months 4 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 11069 times:

Quoting ytz (Reply 4):
A 2.36" blade is still substantial enough to cause serious injury. Forget terrorism. There will be people getting stabbed during simple fisticuffs. And there is zero reason, anyone will need one in flight.

They are very convenient... I always carry one around. I probably won't need it in flight but I won't have to throw mine away in the trash can because I forgot to leave it home. Minus 9/11 (which passengers and pilots have shown won't be allowed to happen the same way again,) was there a knife problem before the pocket knife ban?



Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlineskipness1E From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2007, 3238 posts, RR: 1
Reply 7, posted (1 year 5 months 4 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 11054 times:

The FAs were badly cut on 9/11, you can do serious damage with a box cutter if you're a nutter.

User currently offlineTK787 From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 4426 posts, RR: 12
Reply 8, posted (1 year 5 months 4 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 10975 times:

Is it still OK to carry matches or a lighter on board?
Thanks.


User currently offlineflyingturtle From Switzerland, joined Oct 2011, 2389 posts, RR: 13
Reply 9, posted (1 year 5 months 4 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 10905 times:

Quoting ytz (Reply 4):
A 2.36" blade

Exactly the length of a Swiss Army knife's blade. Coincidence?


David



Keeping calm is terrorism against those who want to live in fear.
User currently offlineMaverick623 From United States of America, joined Nov 2006, 5601 posts, RR: 6
Reply 10, posted (1 year 5 months 4 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 10890 times:

Quoting jfklganyc (Reply 2):
Why?

Why allow a knife on board? Just for the heck of it?
Quoting ytz (Reply 4):
And there is zero reason, anyone will need one in flight.

Why is it that we all of a sudden need "reasons" for going about our daily business? Last I checked, one of the founding principles of the US was freedom, the freedom to do as one pleases, so long as it doesn't violate anyone's basic rights. And the burden of proof for that lies with the state, not the individual.

Quoting ytz (Reply 4):
There will be people getting stabbed during simple fisticuffs.

No, there won't be.

Quoting skipness1E (Reply 7):
you can do serious damage with a box cutter if you're a nutter.

You can do serious damage with your fists if you're a nutter. I've seen it. Should we require all passengers be bound and gagged too?



"PHX is Phoenix, PDX is the other city" -777Way
User currently offlineMIflyer12 From United States of America, joined Feb 2013, 1000 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (1 year 5 months 4 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 10849 times:

Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 9):
Quoting ytz (Reply 4):
A 2.36" blade

Exactly the length of a Swiss Army knife's blade. Coincidence?

Ever visit a Victorinox store in Switzerland? There must be a hundred models of knives.


User currently offlinemax550 From United States of America, joined Nov 2007, 1149 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (1 year 5 months 4 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 10838 times:

It's about time. The reinforced and secured cockpit doors alone prevent small knives from being dangerous to the flight, even before you consider all the other changes that have happened since 9/11.
I'm glad there's one less thing to have to remember to not bring to the airport with you. Those small pocket tools can be very expensive.

Quoting ytz (Reply 4):
A 2.36" blade is still substantial enough to cause serious injury. Forget terrorism. There will be people getting stabbed during simple fisticuffs. And there is zero reason, anyone will need one in flight.

People carry knives like that everywhere else and it's very rare that someone gets stabbed randomly with one. How often have you seen simple fisticuffs on aircraft anyway? I believe that's very rare as well (since it's national news every time it happens).

Quoting TK787 (Reply 8):

Is it still OK to carry matches or a lighter on board?
Thanks.

I think they were banned for a little while after the shoe bomber incident but were quickly allowed again. The torch type lighters are still banned though.


User currently offlineNWAROOSTER From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 1082 posts, RR: 3
Reply 13, posted (1 year 5 months 4 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 10779 times:
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A Swiss Army knife is still a weapon in the hands of the wrong person.
They should still be confined to checked luggage.
If someone is dumb enough to bring one through security, they are dumb enough to loose it.   


User currently offlineantoniemey From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 1555 posts, RR: 4
Reply 14, posted (1 year 5 months 4 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 10777 times:

Quoting skipness1E (Reply 7):
you can do serious damage with a box cutter if you're a nutter.

or a fork, or a spoon, or a roll of duct tape, or...

really? The list of things you COULDN'T use as a weapon would be easier to list, yet we haven't banned everything imaginable from aircraft cabins...



Make something Idiot-proof, and the Universe will make a more inept idiot.
User currently offlinePITingres From United States of America, joined Dec 2007, 1139 posts, RR: 13
Reply 15, posted (1 year 5 months 4 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 10777 times:

Quoting skipness1E (Reply 7):
you can do serious damage with a box cutter if you're a nutter.

Or an Ethernet cable. Or a sharp pencil. Or a necktie. Or fists. Or shoes. Or ....

The TSA rules are, or at least ought to be, about flight safety, not preventing some wacko from hurting someone else. The small knife restriction, like the liquids restriction, has no meaning for flight safety.

Box cutters ONLY worked on 9/11 because it was the first time. On the first couple flights everyone thought that they were just going to Havana, or Tripoli, or whatever. That notion was dispelled within the first couple hours and I'd be surprised to see a successful hijack with close-in arms, ever again. In numerous ways, 9/11 was a one-trick pony and I'm glad to see some of the more useless restrictions start to fall.



Fly, you fools! Fly!
User currently offlineMaverick623 From United States of America, joined Nov 2006, 5601 posts, RR: 6
Reply 16, posted (1 year 5 months 4 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 10718 times:

Quoting NWAROOSTER (Reply 13):
A Swiss Army knife is still a weapon in the hands of the wrong person.
They should still be confined to checked luggage.

Hot coffee is a weapon in the hands of the wrong person. Should we be banning Starbucks from airplanes, too?



"PHX is Phoenix, PDX is the other city" -777Way
User currently offlinePROSA From United States of America, joined Oct 2001, 5644 posts, RR: 4
Reply 17, posted (1 year 5 months 4 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 10686 times:

Lacrosse sticks, really? As far as I know they're too long to fit in the overhead compartments, at least not easily, and obviously no one is going to have a lacrosse match aboard an airliner. Requiring them to be checked makes more sense.


"Let me think about it" = the coward's way of saying "no"
User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7893 posts, RR: 52
Reply 18, posted (1 year 5 months 4 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 10676 times:

Quoting NWAROOSTER (Reply 13):
A Swiss Army knife is still a weapon in the hands of the wrong person.

Again, where are all the cases of people using 2.36" blades against others in an airplane? I think it's safe to say that 9/11 in the way it was executed is impossible this day and age

Should we ban everything that a "wrong person" can use to harm others?



Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlinetugger From United States of America, joined Apr 2006, 5523 posts, RR: 8
Reply 19, posted (1 year 5 months 4 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 10619 times:

Quoting PROSA (Reply 17):
Lacrosse sticks, really? As far as I know they're too long to fit in the overhead compartments, at least not easily, and obviously no one is going to have a lacrosse match aboard an airliner. Requiring them to be checked makes more sense.

Yes but that is an airline decision and not TSA. They just won't stop them from going through anymore.

Tugg



I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. -W. Shatner
User currently offlinejayunited From United States of America, joined Jan 2013, 926 posts, RR: 2
Reply 20, posted (1 year 5 months 4 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 10619 times:

Majority of the flying public are law abiding citizens who are just looking to get from point "A" to point "B". I think the FA unions are concerned about the one lone person who just might be crazy enough to try something while in flight. And while the pilots are now safe behind reinforced flight deck doors most FA unions still see their people as being vulnerable even though the chances of some one using a knife on the aircraft is slim to none. So don't dismiss the FA's or their unions position just because you disagree with them they are just trying to make sure that the government does everything it can to keep their work environment as safe as possible.

Remember the ruckus s-UA pilots made when UA decided to remove the security gates off the B757 fleet? Sometimes pilots and FA just get use to certain security procedures and they don't want to see those security procedures changed or relaxed.


User currently offlinelewis From Greece, joined Jul 1999, 3629 posts, RR: 5
Reply 21, posted (1 year 5 months 4 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 10580 times:

If they should start allowing more things in the cabin, why not start with the more stupid bans, like toiletries. Why start from something that can actually be used as a weapon?

User currently offlineawacsooner From United States of America, joined Jan 2008, 1902 posts, RR: 1
Reply 22, posted (1 year 5 months 4 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 10557 times:

Yah...this won't end well. The first time some drunk pulls a knife on someone, we're back to square one...or worse.

User currently offlineflyingturtle From Switzerland, joined Oct 2011, 2389 posts, RR: 13
Reply 23, posted (1 year 5 months 4 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 10551 times:

Quoting MIflyer12 (Reply 11):
Ever visit a Victorinox store in Switzerland? There must be a hundred models of knives.

There are hundreds of models, yes. The typical red ones - the ones you buy in tourist shops - share some of the tools, among others the large blade. The sharpened, cutting part of the blade is 2.36 in as I've measured.



There are other models, some that look like the Leatherman tools - they have longer blades. The actual current military-issue knife is this one, and should also have a longer blade than the typical red "tourist" issue:



Blade lengths (overall blade length, cutting + non-cutting part):
- Victorinox: http://www.smartknives.com/Swiss-Arm...e-Tools/Victorinox-Large-Blade.htm
- Wenger: http://www.smartknives.com/Swiss-Arm...Knife-Tools/Wenger-Large-Blade.htm

David



Keeping calm is terrorism against those who want to live in fear.
User currently offlineskipness1E From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2007, 3238 posts, RR: 1
Reply 24, posted (1 year 5 months 4 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 10551 times:

Quoting max550 (Reply 12):
The reinforced and secured cockpit doors alone prevent small knives from being dangerous to the flight, even before you consider all the other changes that have happened since 9/11.

Are you sure they couldn't cut your throat and force entry by picking on the smallest female? How confident are you?


User currently offlineytz From Canada, joined Jun 2009, 1990 posts, RR: 24
Reply 25, posted (1 year 5 months 4 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 11066 times:

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 18):
Should we ban everything that a "wrong person" can use to harm others?

Except that they are still holding on to the liquids ban. And that's been broadly interpreted to ban pies on airplanes.

So they'll ease up on pocket knives and hold the lie on pumpkin pie?

That's my point. The liquids ban impacts passengers far, far more than the pocket knife ban. Just go stand by security and watch the number of cologne bottles, water bottles, drinks from the food court/coffee shop, or food that is chucked. On the other hand, I don't know too many people who (even if this ban were lifted) would attempt to go through security with a pocket knife.

So why the inconsistency?


User currently offlineSPREE34 From United States of America, joined Jun 2004, 2248 posts, RR: 9
Reply 26, posted (1 year 5 months 4 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 11038 times:

You can kiil a person with a #2 pecil, or Bic pen, in 3 seconds.

We have to quit looking at things, and start looking at people. P R O F I L E ! It works.



I don't understand everything I don't know about this.
User currently offlineAesma From France, joined Nov 2009, 6616 posts, RR: 9
Reply 27, posted (1 year 5 months 4 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 11162 times:

I didn't know you could bring those aboard planes in Europe. Last time I flew my bottle of San Pellegrino was taken by security... And I lost a pocket knife (not a swiss one but an Opinel) while visiting the UK because there a knife is considered a weapon even in the street.


New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
User currently offlineOB1504 From United States of America, joined Jul 2004, 3332 posts, RR: 9
Reply 28, posted (1 year 5 months 4 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 11128 times:

Quoting jayunited (Reply 20):
Majority of the flying public are law abiding citizens who are just looking to get from point "A" to point "B". I think the FA unions are concerned about the one lone person who just might be crazy enough to try something while in flight. And while the pilots are now safe behind reinforced flight deck doors most FA unions still see their people as being vulnerable even though the chances of some one using a knife on the aircraft is slim to none. So don't dismiss the FA's or their unions position just because you disagree with them they are just trying to make sure that the government does everything it can to keep their work environment as safe as possible.

   With the bulletproof doors now present on most airliners, it won't even affect the pilots directly if the TSA starts letting guns on board, but the F/As don't have that protection.


User currently offlineDariusBieber From United States of America, joined Oct 2009, 200 posts, RR: 0
Reply 29, posted (1 year 5 months 4 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 11087 times:

TSA is a failing government organization. A knife is now okay, but I cannot bring on a bottle of water or shampoo over a couple ounces. Nice.


Darius Bieber
User currently offlineSPREE34 From United States of America, joined Jun 2004, 2248 posts, RR: 9
Reply 30, posted (1 year 5 months 4 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 11065 times:

Quoting DariusBieber (Reply 29):
A knife is now okay, but I cannot bring on a bottle of water or shampoo over a couple ounces. Nice.

You didn't read the article. The fluid restrictions will go as well.



I don't understand everything I don't know about this.
User currently offlineDariusBieber From United States of America, joined Oct 2009, 200 posts, RR: 0
Reply 31, posted (1 year 5 months 4 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 11004 times:

Quoting SPREE34 (Reply 30):
You didn't read the article. The fluid restrictions will go as well.

Hmm, I don't see it in the article...



Darius Bieber
User currently offlineStabilator From United States of America, joined Nov 2010, 697 posts, RR: 0
Reply 32, posted (1 year 5 months 4 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 10994 times:

Quoting SPREE34 (Reply 30):
You didn't read the article. The fluid restrictions will go as well.

I read the article and saw no mention of lifting the fluids ban. What paragraph, please?



So we beat on against the current, borne back ceaselessly into the past.
User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7893 posts, RR: 52
Reply 33, posted (1 year 5 months 4 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 10937 times:

Quoting ytz (Reply 25):
So why the inconsistency?

Idk I already said I think it's stupid, guess I wasn't clear. I'm glad and surprised they became more relaxed on small pocket knives yet keep some other policies regarding items of less harm



Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlinekalvado From United States of America, joined Feb 2006, 491 posts, RR: 0
Reply 34, posted (1 year 5 months 4 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 10933 times:

Quoting Stabilator (Reply 32):
I read the article and saw no mention of lifting the fluids ban. What paragraph, please?

probably confusion with first comment:

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 1):
More interesting will be come January 1st, 2014 when the EU and most Asian nations remove the liquid restrictions.


User currently offlineBraniff747SP From United States of America, joined Oct 2008, 2972 posts, RR: 1
Reply 35, posted (1 year 5 months 4 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 10788 times:

About time; frankly, considering the post-9/11 mentality, someone with a 2.36 in blade won't get far before he is toppled by everyone.

Hopefully, this'll pave the way to get rid of some of the other asinine rules in effect.



The 747 will always be the TRUE queen of the skies!
User currently offlineDariusBieber From United States of America, joined Oct 2009, 200 posts, RR: 0
Reply 36, posted (1 year 5 months 4 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 10690 times:

Quoting kalvado (Reply 34):
probably confusion with first comment:

Ah so how would Asia-US or EU-US flight work with liquids? I'm sure many passengers will take expensive colognes with them from the EU and be able to take them onboard, then be forced to leave them at the TSA checkpoint if connecting to another flight. (Although there is a small window of time where one may slip it into checked baggage after arrival in the US, after clearing Customs)



Darius Bieber
User currently offlineSPREE34 From United States of America, joined Jun 2004, 2248 posts, RR: 9
Reply 37, posted (1 year 5 months 4 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 10632 times:

Quoting DariusBieber (Reply 31):

Hmm, I don't see it in the article...
Quoting kalvado (Reply 34):

probably confusion with first comment:

No, my confusion with a different source. The end objective seems coming inline with the rest of the world. So the fluid restrictions will change as well. Sorry. I've read this story in several sources today, and they all seem to have a bit different twist. My appologies.



I don't understand everything I don't know about this.
User currently offlineglobetrotter29 From United States of America, joined Aug 2012, 33 posts, RR: 0
Reply 38, posted (1 year 5 months 4 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 10629 times:

I fail to understand why a person would need to bring a readily accessible blade of any length onto an aircraft.

User currently offlineairtechy From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 500 posts, RR: 0
Reply 39, posted (1 year 5 months 4 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 10599 times:

Sorry. I typically have no use for the knife. It's all the other tools in the kit...such as the screwdriver which I seem to need. Keep in mind not everyone checks luggage.

Jim


User currently offlinesoon7x7 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 40, posted (1 year 5 months 4 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 10444 times:

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 3):
Wow a step in the right direction, I wonder if this is the start of some more common sense things to come...


A step in the right direction would be to disband the TSA for good. Since box cutters were smaller than swiss army knives, I don't see the logic, but if this the current thinking then we no longer need to spend the tax dollars on the TSA. Given sequestration, despite it all...the TSA just spent $50,000,000 on new uniforms...    I don't see this logic as a step in any particular direction 'cept down. More stupidity.
The past has proven onboard PAX to be more effective @ subduing irrational/ threatening PAX than the TSA.

Quoting globetrotter29 (Reply 38):
I fail to understand why a person would need to bring a readily accessible blade of any length onto an aircraft


I use box cutter every day @ work, carry a knife always but I'm with you on this...absolutely no justifiable reason to have any weapon onboard a transport plane. If you going hunting?...charter a Citation...then you can carry onboard your 50 cal.


User currently offlineflyingturtle From Switzerland, joined Oct 2011, 2389 posts, RR: 13
Reply 41, posted (1 year 5 months 4 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 10355 times:

Quoting airtechy (Reply 39):
Sorry. I typically have no use for the knife. It's all the other tools in the kit...such as the screwdriver which I seem to need. Keep in mind not everyone checks luggage.


I found the army knife perfect for cutting apples and cheese.

Very rarely I think of cutting apples, cheese and bread before I go on a longer railway voyage.


David



Keeping calm is terrorism against those who want to live in fear.
User currently offlinemax550 From United States of America, joined Nov 2007, 1149 posts, RR: 0
Reply 42, posted (1 year 5 months 4 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 10316 times:

Quoting skipness1E (Reply 24):
Are you sure they couldn't cut your throat and force entry by picking on the smallest female? How confident are you?

Sure, they could cut my throat. So could anyone whenever they want. I don't see why that would make the pilots more likely to open the cockpit door.

Quoting globetrotter29 (Reply 38):

I fail to understand why a person would need to bring a readily accessible blade of any length onto an aircraft.

Because it's something people carry with them a lot. Have you ever needed to open plastic packaging, boxes or unscrew anything unexpectedly? It's nice to be prepared if it happens frequently.


User currently offlineJBAirwaysFan From United States of America, joined May 2009, 982 posts, RR: 0
Reply 43, posted (1 year 5 months 4 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 10264 times:

Maybe this is the plane crash survivor in me talking, but I'm really not thrilled with this.


In Loving Memory of Casey Edward Falconer; May 16, 1992-May 9, 2012
User currently offlineSpeedbird128 From Pitcairn Islands, joined Oct 2003, 1648 posts, RR: 2
Reply 44, posted (1 year 5 months 4 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 10222 times:

I can do

Quoting skipness1E (Reply 7):
serious damage

with my hands. Should they be in checked luggage too?



A306, A313, A319, A320, A321, A332, A343, A345, A346 A388, AC90, B06, B722, B732, B733, B735, B738, B744, B762, B772, B7
User currently offlineboeing773ER From United States of America, joined Dec 2011, 426 posts, RR: 0
Reply 45, posted (1 year 5 months 4 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 10196 times:

I don't understand the point of this. Why does a pocket knife need to be on board with you in your pocket? I don't believe there is anything you are going to need to desperately cut in the duration of your flight and connection time. IF you really need to get something cut, I am sure a flight attendent or staff at the airport will be willing to help. May not be the most convenient thing, but it makes more sense then having a bunch of people running around with pocket knives.

It makes me slightly uncomfortable that this is allowed, I mean I know my odds of someone coming up to me and doing harm to me while on an airplane are slim to none, but still. You give people something small like this, and they abuse it. Now activists for less constraints of TSA will now just keep fighting harder.

Quoting max550 (Reply 42):

Well, you are on an airplane or inside an airport. What could you possibly need to cut so desperately? I mean if you buy something from one of those electronic stands or machines I could understand but some retailer would probably help you out.


Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 41):

I think you stated it perfectly, an army knife does have purpose. But just not onboard aircraft.



Work Hard, Fly Right.
User currently offlineMcoov From United States of America, joined Jul 2011, 128 posts, RR: 1
Reply 46, posted (1 year 5 months 4 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 10067 times:

Quoting boeing773ER (Reply 45):

Most people carry multitool knives, such as the Swiss Army Knife, or a leatherman, which have scissor tools, NOT JUST a knife like a box cutter or a butterfly knife.

I can list a few things people might decide to cut:
-Nails
-Plastic packaging of some kind
-Yarn (knitting) (Wait, are knitting needles still prohibited?)
-Paper


My opinion: I'm glad to see this. Most people can be trusted, especially if other objects that are just as dangerous are permitted on board. 9/11 can never happen again, partly because everyone on board now knows that they must collectively stop the threat. No one simply sits back anymore, and not even then did that happen (UA 93). Air marshals with firearms and trained FAs also help.

[Edited 2013-03-05 21:56:16]

[Edited 2013-03-05 21:56:46]

User currently offlinevegas005 From Switzerland, joined Mar 2005, 320 posts, RR: 0
Reply 47, posted (1 year 5 months 4 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 9975 times:

Trained people can kill with any object or no object...even a pair of shoe laces can be lethal if used correctly. Banning small knives does not solve any safety issue. In fact in business and first class I am given "real" silverware now including a knife.

I carry a Swiss knife on my key ring that has a pen, light, tweezers and a small blade. It it a great item to have with me and it should be allowed to be brought on board.

Anyway the TSA lost me with their 50 million dollar uniform order the day before the sequestration kicked in. They are out of touch...


User currently offlineflyingturtle From Switzerland, joined Oct 2011, 2389 posts, RR: 13
Reply 48, posted (1 year 5 months 4 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 9992 times:

Well, I get astonished looks when my "Army" knife lies on the table, with the blade folded out, in a railway coach full of travelers...

The normal red army knifes don't have lock, so when you apply enough force, the blade might snap back into the case, giving yourself a nasty cut. So it might be a good weapon to surprise somebody from behind and hold the blade to the throat, but I wouldn't use it as a dagger.


David

[Edited 2013-03-05 22:36:16]


Keeping calm is terrorism against those who want to live in fear.
User currently offlineXT6Wagon From United States of America, joined Feb 2007, 3396 posts, RR: 4
Reply 49, posted (1 year 5 months 4 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 9968 times:

I hate to say it... but somehow back before 9/11 I carried on a swiss army knife with a quite large blade and managed not only be let through security... but I didn't stab a single person the entire flight.

It remains that a knife isn't going to be an effective weapn on a plane as anyone trying anything would be both massively out numbered and the cabin is filled with things that also work as weapons. I very much doubt that terrorists are sitting around saying.... "you know what would fill their hearts with fear? If we go slash up a couple people in a plane before we get killed by the other 150 people in the cabin. "


User currently offlineSkydrol From Canada, joined Oct 2003, 969 posts, RR: 10
Reply 50, posted (1 year 5 months 4 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 9942 times:

Don't see a problem with small knives either. And the sooner they abolish the liquids ban, the sooner the line ups at security checkpoints will reduce.

Why be worried about a small knife?

Case:

Passenger in seat 34D is using a laptop.

Passenger in seat 33D does not just recline, but SLAMS their seat back, crushing the display of the laptop on the table for 34D, behind.

Passenger in seat 34D retrieves the power cord for their laptop (which is welcome aboard by TSA and airlines), drops it over the head of the passenger in seat 33D, pulls it tight and its lights out in 33D with a crushed windpipe...


Should everything be banned? How can you predict if someone is going to have a bad temper and do something crazy with whatever than can get their hands on? How about a jagged, smashed duty free booze bottle being swung around at others in a furious rage? Or hitting someone full force over the head with a laptop? Or whipped with the buckle of a seatbelt extension? All allowed aboard, all with potential to choke, stab, bludgeon.and kill.





✈ LD4 ✈



∙ ---{--« ∙ ----{--« ∙ --{-« ∙ ---{--« ∙ --{--« ∙ --{-« ∙ ----{--« ∙
User currently offlineBraybuddy From Ireland, joined Aug 2004, 5690 posts, RR: 32
Reply 51, posted (1 year 5 months 4 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 9827 times:

Why on earth would anyone need to carry a knife on board an aircraft? Funny that I've managed to survive and travel around the world over all these years without the need to carry a knife. If you ever do need a knife for something - which, strangely, has never occurred -- you can always buy one at your destination.

User currently offlineUnflug From Germany, joined Jan 2012, 475 posts, RR: 2
Reply 52, posted (1 year 5 months 4 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 9671 times:

Quoting jfklganyc (Reply 2):
Why?

Why allow a knife on board? Just for the heck of it?

... because it is not dangerous as long as the words "Terrorist" or "Bomb" are not mentioned  

On the serious side, I think this is the simple answer:

Quoting PITingres (Reply 15):
The TSA rules are, or at least ought to be, about flight safety, not preventing some wacko from hurting someone else. The small knife restriction, like the liquids restriction, has no meaning for flight safety.


User currently offlineB727FA From United States of America, joined Jun 2011, 758 posts, RR: 0
Reply 53, posted (1 year 5 months 4 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 9608 times:

>>You can do serious damage with your fists if you're a nutter. I've seen it. Should we require all passengers be bound and gagged too? (wink wink)

I've often wished I had my "key chain" Swiss Army Knife for the little scissors, or the small blade to cut a thread or a buggery sliver.

[Edited 2013-03-06 00:07:31]


My comments/opinions are my own and are not to be construed as the opinion(s) of my employer.
User currently offlinemtnwest1979 From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 2458 posts, RR: 1
Reply 54, posted (1 year 5 months 4 weeks 1 day ago) and read 9536 times:

Heck, if anyone wanted to cause harm, wouldn't it be easier to strangle someone with a shoelace??


"If it ain't broke, don't fix it!"
User currently offlineunityofsaints From Ireland, joined Nov 2011, 49 posts, RR: 0
Reply 55, posted (1 year 5 months 4 weeks 23 hours ago) and read 9484 times:

I like the change but liquids should have been allowed back in first. Obviously drinks are more of a cash cow at airports than knives...

User currently offlineantoniemey From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 1555 posts, RR: 4
Reply 56, posted (1 year 5 months 4 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 9394 times:

Quoting awacsooner (Reply 22):
The first time some drunk pulls a knife on someone, we're back to square one...or worse.

How many times, in the history of commercial aviation, has a drunk passenger pulled a knife aboard an aircraft?

I'll wait while you go find some examples.

Quoting skipness1E (Reply 24):
Are you sure they couldn't cut your throat and force entry by picking on the smallest female? How confident are you?

I'm confident in 2 things:

A: the pilots are now trained to not surrender the plane to a would-be hijacker for ANY reason.
B: the passengers on an average flight are going to swarm anyone they think is acting funny, rightly or wrongly. A knife MIGHT be dangerous, but it's not going to hold a planeful of people at bay.

Quoting globetrotter29 (Reply 38):
I fail to understand why a person would need to bring a readily accessible blade of any length onto an aircraft.

People carry them. Maybe to open that new pair of headphones they bought for the trip and tossed in their bag without thinking about how hard the plastic will be to deal with.

Quoting boeing773ER (Reply 45):
It makes me slightly uncomfortable that this is allowed

Did it make you slightly uncomfortable that it was allowed 12 years ago (Pre-9/11)?

Quoting vegas005 (Reply 47):
Anyway the TSA lost me with their 50 million dollar uniform order the day before the sequestration kicked in. They are out of touch...

It took you that long?



Make something Idiot-proof, and the Universe will make a more inept idiot.
User currently offlineBralo20 From Belgium, joined May 2008, 624 posts, RR: 0
Reply 57, posted (1 year 5 months 4 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 9370 times:

Quoting skipness1E (Reply 7):
The FAs were badly cut on 9/11, you can do serious damage with a box cutter if you're a nutter.

You can also do serious damage with a glass, reason to ban all glass from flights? You can also do serious damage with flamable alcohol, reason to ban whisky, cognac, or other liquors from flights? You can even do serious damage with a plastic knife and fork, reason to ban them too and eat with our hands? And you can even do serious damage with any kind of powersource, reason to have dark flights with no electricity?


Even a stupid briefcase, like for example the decent ones from Zero Halliburton are very though and will easily knock someone down if you hit someone with it, it probably won't even have a single scratch on it...

My point is, people with bad intentions really don't need a pocket knife, if one wants to harm someone or even try to hijack a plane there a plenty of ways to do it without having to smuggle something on board. Nearly everything on a plane can be used as a kind of weapon. Glass, alcohol, plastic, metal parts, everything is a potential weapon in the hands of people with knowledge and bad intentions. Banning liquids, pocket knifes, etc... doesn't make any sense anymore (nor it ever made any sense).


User currently offlinesoon7x7 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 58, posted (1 year 5 months 4 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 9295 times:

Quoting mtnwest1979 (Reply 54):

Fires burn Hot enough...why the need to toss some gasoline on it?. As a pilot I always carry a knife on my belt in case of a forced landing and I must cut my harness in the event the buckle is inop but as a passenger in a transport aircraft?...These days I wouldn't think of it. It is a stupid move.


User currently offlinebrilondon From Canada, joined Aug 2005, 4216 posts, RR: 1
Reply 59, posted (1 year 5 months 4 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 8847 times:

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 10):
Why is it that we all of a sudden need "reasons" for going about our daily business? Last I checked, one of the founding principles of the US was freedom, the freedom to do as one pleases, so long as it doesn't violate anyone's basic rights. And the burden of proof for that lies with the state, not the individual.

Ah yes the illusion of freedom.

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 16):

Hot coffee is a weapon in the hands of the wrong person. Should we be banning Starbucks from airplanes, too?

Yes we should,but not for safety reasons but for reasons of good taste.  



Rush for ever; Yankees all the way!!
User currently offlinekalvado From United States of America, joined Feb 2006, 491 posts, RR: 0
Reply 60, posted (1 year 5 months 4 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 8768 times:

Why would 2" knife on-board be considered more dangerous than a 2" knife elsewhere? Only reason I see is 9/11 type event; and that is not going to happen. If anything goes wrong, bad guy will be met by friendly SWAT team, willing to assist at the nearest airport. Moreover, there is no chance to escape from airborne plane - police wouldn't have hard time looking for offender. Yes, stabbings do happen on the ground - but risk on-board is likely lower than elsewhere.
Why would someone need XXX on board? - because with current checked luggage policies, not having something on-board is the same as not having it at the destination. I am not ready to pay $50 to be able to cut my fingernail during 2-week trip; and yes, my pocket knife (with 1.5" deadly dull blade and nice little scissors) is the most convenient tool for that.


User currently offlinegatorman96 From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 873 posts, RR: 0
Reply 61, posted (1 year 5 months 4 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 8626 times:

I can assure you, if someone attempts to hijack an aircraft with a 2.36" Swiss Army knife, they will first be laughed at, then beaten to a pulp (taped to a chair if they are on Iceland Air).


Cha brro
User currently offlinekaitak From Ireland, joined Aug 1999, 12436 posts, RR: 37
Reply 62, posted (1 year 5 months 4 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 8350 times:

I agree with those who have said that no-one needs to have a knife on their person or in their hand baggage on a flight. I think this is a retrograde step. I do not blame the cabin crew unions for their position on this; it's easy for pilots not to mind - they have a 6" steel door between them and any nutcases!

Two points come to mind:
1) The TSA is only permitting this, not mandating it - so presumably carriers can have their own regulations which would permit them to deplane any pax with a knife or divert if it were to be produced in flight?
2) Is this rule just for domestic routes? What about non-US carriers and in particular their regulatory authorities. How would the CAA (or others) feel about having pax board with knives?

Wouldn't it be ironic if a pax were to be in the situation where it was ok to bring a knife on board, but be ticked off (or thrown off) for taking a photo!


User currently offlineboeingkid From United States of America, joined May 2009, 116 posts, RR: 0
Reply 63, posted (1 year 5 months 4 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 8263 times:

Unreal that they are allowing knives but not bottles of water

User currently offlinePITingres From United States of America, joined Dec 2007, 1139 posts, RR: 13
Reply 64, posted (1 year 5 months 4 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 8198 times:

Quoting Braybuddy (Reply 51):
Why on earth would anyone need to carry a knife on board an aircraft?

Because many if not most pocket corkscrews seem to include a stub knife that as of today falls afoul of the silly rule. I like to carry a pocket corkscrew in my toiletries case, and if I'm not checking a bag, I have to remember to take the darn thing out or lose it.

People also seem to forget that screening is not free. I have lost countless precious, irreplaceable hours of my life -- and so has every other air traveler -- to stupid screening rules that take more time than necessary. The TSA mandate is not about protecting an individual (FA or pax) from another individual, it's about preventing an aircraft from being used as a bomb, and secondarily about preventing loss of a single aircraft if possible. I take my chances against the crazies every day, in every public place, just like everyone else; I don't see trading more hours of my life for a very very VERY small, incremental, mostly theoretical improvement in personal safety while in flight.



Fly, you fools! Fly!
User currently offlinegatorman96 From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 873 posts, RR: 0
Reply 65, posted (1 year 5 months 4 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 8203 times:

Quoting boeingkid (Reply 63):
Unreal that they are allowing knives but not bottles of water

Although these scenarios are highly unlikely, I'm far more concerned about a bomb being fashioned out of a water bottle or some other type of liquid container than I am about highjackers and pocket knives...

That being said, I look very forward to the day the liquids ban gets lifted...



Cha brro
User currently offlinePC12Fan From United States of America, joined Jan 2007, 2433 posts, RR: 5
Reply 66, posted (1 year 5 months 4 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 7961 times:

Quoting ytz (Reply 4):

   Spot on.

Quoting tugger (Reply 5):
Why would it suddenly begin to happen now when it didn't happen before?

You put the idea of the possibility in the "nutters" head and there you go.

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 10):
Last I checked, one of the founding principles of the US was freedom, the freedom to do as one pleases, so long as it doesn't violate anyone's basic rights.

I'm betting nineteen extremists took that into consideration.

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 10):
No, there won't be.

Bet they thought no one would ever fly 767's into two iconic buildings either.

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 10):
You can do serious damage with your fists if you're a nutter.

But you can't put them in your checked luggage last I checked.



Just when I think you've said the stupidest thing ever, you keep talkin'!
User currently offlineJONC777 From United States of America, joined Jun 2012, 126 posts, RR: 0
Reply 67, posted (1 year 5 months 4 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 7936 times:

Quoting ytz (Reply 4):
A 2.36" blade is still substantial enough to cause serious injury. Forget terrorism. There will be people getting stabbed during simple fisticuffs. And there is zero reason, anyone will need one in flight.

What if you just want to be able to defend yourself against someone who has one ??  


User currently offlineb6a322 From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 291 posts, RR: 0
Reply 68, posted (1 year 5 months 4 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 7611 times:

Some of the comments on here really seem to remind me of the Monty Python bit "How to defend yourself using only a piece of fruit".

Back to the main point, which is that knives are currently a more detectable danger than liquids. Its easy to see someone's intentions IF they were to try to use a pocket knife aggressively.

But on the other hand, think of how many clear liquids look like water...I can think of Vinegar, Epinephrine, Atropine, Adenosine, Sodium Bicarbonate, Lighter fluid, toluene...the list goes on - and the resources don't exist to check every single bottle of clear liquid that goes through the checkpoint. Granted I'm sure the rules will change in the future for global alignment, but at present the liquid issue is still seen as too much of a risk. At some point it will be reevaluated.



The content I post is solely my own opinion. It is not an official statement by/of/for nor representative of any company
User currently offlinemia305 From United States of America, joined Mar 2013, 319 posts, RR: 0
Reply 69, posted (1 year 5 months 4 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 7579 times:

I don't like the idea of that. A knife can cause damage regardless of
length. Granted, we became more vigilant and made modifications
after 9/11 but nowadays people just snap and if that happened
to the wrong person with a knife you've got problems.


User currently offlinebrilondon From Canada, joined Aug 2005, 4216 posts, RR: 1
Reply 70, posted (1 year 5 months 4 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 7559 times:

Quoting boeingkid (Reply 63):

Unreal that they are allowing knives but not bottles of water

That I believe is going to be lifted in January of next year.



Rush for ever; Yankees all the way!!
User currently offlineFreshSide3 From United States of America, joined Nov 2012, 213 posts, RR: 0
Reply 71, posted (1 year 5 months 4 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 7488 times:

Quoting b6a322 (Reply 68):
But on the other hand, think of how many clear liquids look like water...I can think of Vinegar, Epinephrine, Atropine, Adenosine, Sodium Bicarbonate, Lighter fluid, toluene...the list goes on - and the resources don't exist to check every single bottle of clear liquid that goes through the checkpoint. Granted I'm sure the rules will change in the future for global alignment, but at present the liquid issue is still seen as too much of a risk. At some point it will be reevaluated.

You would think, though, with all the sophisticated screening devices at airports in this day and age, they would be able to detect what's in the bottle.

Also, there are items that are fragile that involve liquids(i.e. decorative snow globes) besides the obvious liquor and perfume.

They've got it backwards......force the check-in of hockey sticks and the like(since they are tough as nails, won't break easily, and therefore no need to bring in the cabin.......but allow the liquids.

And just because Europe is doing this, we don't have to play "follow the leader".........we have the perogative to be more strict than Europe on some things, if we want to.


User currently offlineb6a322 From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 291 posts, RR: 0
Reply 72, posted (1 year 5 months 4 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 7363 times:

Quoting FreshSide3 (Reply 71):
You would think, though, with all the sophisticated screening devices at airports in this day and age, they would be able to detect what's in the bottle.

Yes, one would think. I just don't think the technology is fast and reliable enough to be there yet.

Quoting FreshSide3 (Reply 71):
They've got it backwards......force the check-in of hockey sticks and the like(since they are tough as nails, won't break easily, and therefore no need to bring in the cabin.......but allow the liquids.

Your same argument from above also applies here - yes items like hockey sticks don't break easily in the cabin, but they are still fragile. Add this to the treatment they receive going to the hold and there's the break. In any event thats aside from the main point that its up to the airline to decide if they want them onboard in the end. All the TSA has said by allowing them through the checkpoint is, "These items pose little or no threat to overall flight safety".

Quoting FreshSide3 (Reply 71):
And just because Europe is doing this, we don't have to play "follow the leader".........we have the perogative to be more strict than Europe on some things, if we want to.

I agree with you. However, if we want to play nice in the sandbox...



The content I post is solely my own opinion. It is not an official statement by/of/for nor representative of any company
User currently offlinekalvado From United States of America, joined Feb 2006, 491 posts, RR: 0
Reply 73, posted (1 year 5 months 4 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 7082 times:

Quoting b6a322 (Reply 68):

But on the other hand, think of how many clear liquids look like water...I can think of Vinegar, Epinephrine, Atropine, Adenosine, Sodium Bicarbonate, Lighter fluid, toluene...the list goes on - and the resources don't exist to check every single bottle of clear liquid that goes through the checkpoint.

What exactly is going to be detected? Detection system is able to provide some idea of composition, so whatever is deemed real dangerous (oxidizers - peroxide, nitric acid, etc) gets detected.
Actually same goes for solid stuff - you do not ban every white powder, be it salt, sugar, or perchlorate - just for being white solid.
A realistic list of threats and reasonable countermeasures for those threats, which TSA hopefully compiled long ago, is what should determine what is allowed and what is not. Blanket bans are only that meaningful, and are subject to workarounds.


User currently offlinemax550 From United States of America, joined Nov 2007, 1149 posts, RR: 0
Reply 74, posted (1 year 5 months 4 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 7052 times:

Quoting boeing773ER (Reply 45):
Well, you are on an airplane or inside an airport. What could you possibly need to cut so desperately? I mean if you buy something from one of those electronic stands or machines I could understand but some retailer would probably help you out.

Most likely nothing during the traveling, but it's always nice to have at the destination. I used to throw one in my checked bag until I stopped checking bags a few years ago so it'll be nice to be able to carry a pocket tool again.

Quoting boeingkid (Reply 63):
Unreal that they are allowing knives but not bottles of water

Theoretically the "water" could be an explosive that could pose a threat to bring down the flight. The knife could be used to hurt someone but wouldn't jeopardize the flight.

Quoting mia305 (Reply 69):
I don't like the idea of that. A knife can cause damage regardless of
length. Granted, we became more vigilant and made modifications
after 9/11 but nowadays people just snap and if that happened
to the wrong person with a knife you've got problems.

How often to people just snap and randomly hurt other people? Sure, it happens now and then but it's very rare and wouldn't pose any risk to the flight if it happened on an aircraft.


User currently offlinemia305 From United States of America, joined Mar 2013, 319 posts, RR: 0
Reply 75, posted (1 year 5 months 4 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 6643 times:

It wouldn't pose no risk to the flight but a 2 inch knife can hurt and kill
someone. I mean why take the chance of that happening.


User currently offlineBraybuddy From Ireland, joined Aug 2004, 5690 posts, RR: 32
Reply 76, posted (1 year 5 months 4 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 6597 times:

Quoting PITingres (Reply 64):
I like to carry a pocket corkscrew in my toiletries case, and if I'm not checking a bag, I have to remember to take the darn thing out or lose it.

People do the strangest things . . . Hardly a compelling reason for allowing knives on board though.


User currently offlinekalvado From United States of America, joined Feb 2006, 491 posts, RR: 0
Reply 77, posted (1 year 5 months 4 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 6532 times:

Quoting mia305 (Reply 75):
It wouldn't pose no risk to the flight but a 2 inch knife can hurt and kill
someone. I mean why take the chance of that happening.

I suggest that you immediately surrender any sharp object located at your residence to police. That includes, but not limited to, kitchen knives, scissors, staples, pins, wire- and box-cutters, needles and nails since those can hurt someone. Please also surrender your driver license and destroy your vehicle since driving is known to cause personal injury and death.
Seriously, assuming safety of flight is not compromised - what is the difference between object in a cabin and same object at the theater or cinema? 2" knife is equally dangerous inside outside sterile area... Once again - this all is assuming 9/11 scenario is not possible.


User currently offlinekazim786 From UK - England, joined Apr 2011, 44 posts, RR: 0
Reply 78, posted (1 year 5 months 4 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 6416 times:

That seems like a truly terrible decision.

User currently offlinesankaps From United States of America, joined Jan 2008, 2255 posts, RR: 2
Reply 79, posted (1 year 5 months 4 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 6430 times:

Quoting lewis (Reply 21):
If they should start allowing more things in the cabin, why not start with the more stupid bans, like toiletries. Why start from something that can actually be used as a weapon?

Is use of the "T" word in non-threatening situations still banned though?   (For example, "I am a United Super1K blogger just taking photos of the new business class seat for my blog, and not a terrorist").


User currently offlinemia305 From United States of America, joined Mar 2013, 319 posts, RR: 0
Reply 80, posted (1 year 5 months 4 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 6360 times:

Quoting kalvado (Reply 77):

Really, Really........ I'm just saying I don't like the idea. If people want to have a 2 inch pocket knife with
them just check with you bag and get it at your destination. If its attached to something
Detach it and check it. If you have carry on only don't bring it.


User currently offlinePITingres From United States of America, joined Dec 2007, 1139 posts, RR: 13
Reply 81, posted (1 year 5 months 4 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 6094 times:

We're obviously not all connecting on what the security check is for. I don't get why some people expect to be personally safer on the airside of a security check, as opposed to in the security line, checkin line, parking lot, etc etc.

If someone wants to be protected from a crazy randomly targeting people with a personal weapon (box cutter, whatever) I suggest that that person hire a personal bodyguard. It's not what the TSA checkpoint is for, at all.



Fly, you fools! Fly!
User currently offlinekalvado From United States of America, joined Feb 2006, 491 posts, RR: 0
Reply 82, posted (1 year 5 months 4 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 6059 times:

Quoting mia305 (Reply 80):
Really, Really........ I'm just saying I don't like the idea. If people want to have a 2 inch pocket knife with
them just check with you bag and get it at your destination. If its attached to something
Detach it and check it. If you have carry on only don't bring it.

OK, so you don't have to dispose all the sharp objects - just send a check for $50 to a charity of your choice (is that what round-trip checked bag costs these days?) if you are so attached to those.
Checked luggage fees do have an effect on what people want to bring with them.


User currently offlineMaverick623 From United States of America, joined Nov 2006, 5601 posts, RR: 6
Reply 83, posted (1 year 5 months 4 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 5875 times:

Quoting brilondon (Reply 59):
Yes we should,but not for safety reasons but for reasons of good taste.

Exactly the reply I was gaming for  
Quoting PC12Fan (Reply 66):

I'm betting nineteen extremists took that into consideration.

And I'm willing to bet that thousands of non-extremeists stabbed someone yesterday. Does that mean I shouldn't be able to carry a knife anywhere?

Quoting PC12Fan (Reply 66):
Bet they thought no one would ever fly 767's into two iconic buildings either.

Please... I was crashing planes into the Pentagon on MSFS back in 1998, at the ripe old age of 12. Oh, and this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bojinka_Plot

Not to mention the numerous reports and memos the FBI completely ignored.



"PHX is Phoenix, PDX is the other city" -777Way
User currently offlinemanny From United States of America, joined Sep 2006, 473 posts, RR: 0
Reply 84, posted (1 year 5 months 4 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 5810 times:

This is the most brain dead move i have ever heard of. You allow small knives which are the like the box cutters used by those cowards.

But breast milk is still a danger!


User currently offlineMaverick623 From United States of America, joined Nov 2006, 5601 posts, RR: 6
Reply 85, posted (1 year 5 months 4 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 5777 times:

Quoting manny (Reply 84):
You allow small knives which are the like the box cutters used by those cowards.

 

As was said before, their are two reasons the hijackers succeeded in getting into the cockpit, and neither of those was "box cutters": they were a) non-reinforced cockpit doors and b) passenger complacency, both of which have been fixed.

You will never see a 9/11 style-attack on American soil for the next 100 years, and you can take that to the bank.



"PHX is Phoenix, PDX is the other city" -777Way
User currently offlinePC12Fan From United States of America, joined Jan 2007, 2433 posts, RR: 5
Reply 86, posted (1 year 5 months 4 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 5412 times:

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 83):
Bet they thought no one would ever fly 767's into two iconic buildings either.

Please... I was crashing planes into the Pentagon on MSFS back in 1998, at the ripe old age of 12. Oh, and this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bojinka_Plot

Not to mention the numerous reports and memos the FBI completely ignored.

And yet it still happened, didn't it.

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 83):
And I'm willing to bet that thousands of non-extremeists stabbed someone yesterday. Does that mean I shouldn't be able to carry a knife anywhere?

A passenger aircraft isn't just anywhere.

Regardless, nobody needs to make these points to make the TSA look stupid. They do just fine on their own.



Just when I think you've said the stupidest thing ever, you keep talkin'!
User currently offlinemtnwest1979 From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 2458 posts, RR: 1
Reply 87, posted (1 year 5 months 4 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 5364 times:

I wonder: If 9/11 events had never occurred , and for whatever reason the FAA* told the various security companies around the nation to start banning these type of knives, folks on here and in general would be "why do this, what harm could it do?", etc. All probably screaming that it is outrageous and whatnot.
*- I say FAA since TSA would not have been formed.
I agree with above folks that state that a planeload of pax are not going to sit by as someone/people try anything these days.

Since I do not have/use pocketknives ( or golf clubs and hockey sticks), I do not care one way or the other.



"If it ain't broke, don't fix it!"
User currently offlineCaliAtenza From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 1575 posts, RR: 0
Reply 88, posted (1 year 5 months 4 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 5270 times:

Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 23):


There are other models, some that look like the Leatherman tools - they have longer blades. The actual current military-issue knife is this one, and should also have a longer blade than the typical red "tourist" issue:

i got that black one for my girlfriend as a gift  .


User currently offlinerailker From Canada, joined Aug 2006, 171 posts, RR: 0
Reply 89, posted (1 year 5 months 4 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 5200 times:

I agree with the people on here agreeing that the ban should be upheld. While it may be a pain for some, those arguing that you can use anything for a weapon aren't looking at practicality. You have a proper use for a pencil. What proper use would you have for a knife that can't wait until your flight lands? Or find a pair of scissors ... there's absolutely no need that I've been able to think of this entire thread.

Quoting XT6Wagon (Reply 49):
I hate to say it... but somehow back before 9/11 I carried on a swiss army knife with a quite large blade and managed not only be let through security... but I didn't stab a single person the entire flight.

Have to admit myself that flying home last summer, had been window cleaning for a few weeks before and had a new disposable razor blade tucked into the mini-pocket of my jeans. Been through the laundry and everything. Went through security, connected to two others flights. Wasn't until I was changing at my destination that I found the blade in my pocket. Oops. I somehow managed to not to stab anyone, either.

[Edited 2013-03-06 17:51:37]

User currently offlinePITingres From United States of America, joined Dec 2007, 1139 posts, RR: 13
Reply 90, posted (1 year 5 months 4 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 5171 times:

Quoting railker (Reply 89):
What proper use would you have for a knife that can't wait until your flight lands? Or find a pair of scissors ... there's absolutely no need that I've been able to think of this entire thread.

Read the posts above. I have no use for a knife, or my corkscrew, on board -- but I don't always check a bag, and shouldn't have to (and pay another $50) just because I want to carry a corkscrew, which just happens to have a wee tiny knife on it, for use at my destination. (Or small nail scissors, or whatever.)

I will attempt again, once more, to get across the point that TSA security has nothing to do with personal, individual security or safety. Nil, nada, nichts, zip, f**k-all. Nor should it. If you can't bring the plane down with it, TSA should be ignoring it.



Fly, you fools! Fly!
User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 25170 posts, RR: 22
Reply 91, posted (1 year 5 months 4 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 5117 times:

A broken wine bottle can do as much or more damage than a small knife.

User currently offlinedenverdanny From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 263 posts, RR: 0
Reply 92, posted (1 year 5 months 4 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 5081 times:

My dad is a believer in carrying knives. He has a Swiss Army knife he's used for cutting candies, picking his nails, and opening mail. I'm sure it could come in handy if stranded on an island, but the benefits seem limited on a flight. There was one time at Stapleton they wouldn't let us get on our flight because he was carrying a larger knife, maybe a 4 inch blade. His reason was because he thought he might need it to cut seatbelts if in an accident. That's what he told them at least. They kept it and let us on the flight, saying they would send it home to him.

With 9/11 and the box cutters, I don't really understand this move. A poster above does make the point about the secure cockpit doors. So, maybe it's irrelevant now. The nail clippers thing should have been lifted long ago. And another poster makes a good point about maybe not having any checked baggage to put it in. I guess the thing that bothers me is the bureaucracy, the inconsistency, and the rules often just not making sense. Can we stop frisking little children now too, or do we have to wait a few years before we get around to that?


User currently offlineOB1504 From United States of America, joined Jul 2004, 3332 posts, RR: 9
Reply 93, posted (1 year 5 months 4 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 5030 times:

The former TSA chief has gone on record as saying that small knives are not enough, that axes and machetes should be okay, too:

http://www.cnn.com/2013/03/06/travel...rry-on-hawley/index.html?hpt=hp_c2

He makes a valid point, because if a terrorist armed with a blade slaughters everyone on board, he's still not going to get into the cockpit and safety will not be compromised... unless you're one of the 149 people in the back now dead.


User currently offlineEnviroTO From Canada, joined Aug 2004, 825 posts, RR: 0
Reply 94, posted (1 year 5 months 4 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 4982 times:

Nude scans, taking off shoes and belts, being denied access to planes for name resemblance, etc is a sensible precaution but thankfully they will be allowing knives back on the plane. So many people have been harmed by belts and shoes but when was the last time you have ever heard of a stabbing? That never happens.

User currently offlinemia305 From United States of America, joined Mar 2013, 319 posts, RR: 0
Reply 95, posted (1 year 5 months 4 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 4959 times:

As I mentioned in the above post a person can snap for whatever reason
mental, personal, being drunk or having a bad day. Granted it rarely happens
but if it does...... Who's to say a person wouldn't get killed


User currently offlineMaverick623 From United States of America, joined Nov 2006, 5601 posts, RR: 6
Reply 96, posted (1 year 5 months 4 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 4894 times:

Quoting PC12Fan (Reply 86):
And yet it still happened, didn't it.

And your point is.... ???

Quoting PC12Fan (Reply 86):

A passenger aircraft isn't just anywhere.

It is to me. Sure, there's no place to just pull over and run away when someone goes nuts, but then again, that worked out real well for Greyhound, didn't it?

Quoting railker (Reply 89):
those arguing that you can use anything for a weapon aren't looking at practicality.

Those arguing that a small knife is somehow more dangerous than anything else aren't looking at practicality.

Quoting railker (Reply 89):
What proper use would you have for a knife that can't wait until your flight lands?

Opening a package, cutting up some food I brought, or even maybe the airline food, maybe the knife they gave me wasn't sharp enough... wait, what??? You mean there's been knives on airplanes all these years and not a single stabbing????

 
Quoting EnviroTO (Reply 95):
So many people have been harmed by belts and shoes but when was the last time you have ever heard of a stabbing? That never happens.

If you're trying to be sarcastic, you are failing miserably. Literally, when was the last time somebody was stabbed on a plane prior to (or since) 9/11?



"PHX is Phoenix, PDX is the other city" -777Way
User currently offlineflyingturtle From Switzerland, joined Oct 2011, 2389 posts, RR: 13
Reply 97, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 4735 times:

Quoting railker (Reply 89):
Oops. I somehow managed to not to stab anyone, either.

I took a red army knife to JKH from ZRH (an Avro RJ85 or RJ100 flight), and they didn't object to that knife. By the way, it was also my first flight on an airliner.

No problem too on the way back. The flight was delayed for six hours, so we got bused to a restaurant to have lunch, and before the flight they dispensed with security altogether. Somehow, they had some common sense... why attack a tourist charter if there are better targets?

On a later flight (BSL - LTN), they took my knife from me, and I didn't know I still had one in the rucksack.

"Do you have a knife with you?"
- "No, I don't carry one with me."

*takes the knife out*

"And what is THIS?"

They gave me a slip of paper with which I could retrieve the knife at BSL.

Quoting CaliAtenza (Reply 88):
i got that black one for my girlfriend as a gift .

I still fondly remember one I got as a gift... with lots and lots of tools... one to gut fish, a saw, a magnifying glass... but I haven't it anymore. I was about 10 at the time.


David



Keeping calm is terrorism against those who want to live in fear.
User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7893 posts, RR: 52
Reply 98, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 4635 times:

I'm surprised how fearful people are. I guess time will tell if this is a good idea or not. Having a knife, I have found, is convenient but no it is not needed. I lost mine a while ago and haven't carried one regularly in a while, and I haven't really thought "man I wish I had a knife." But when I had it, I found random uses for it all the time.

There is a ton of stuff we bring on airplanes "we don't ever need." And I don't think it's that crazy of a metaphor... I know there is a difference between a knife and a USB cord or whatever, and it is more effective of a weapon than a lot of items, but really, how many stabbings on airplanes were there prior to 9/11 with 2.36" blades? I doubt we'll see any incident with these knives, time will tell



Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlinePC12Fan From United States of America, joined Jan 2007, 2433 posts, RR: 5
Reply 99, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 4605 times:

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 97):
And yet it still happened, didn't it.

And your point is.... ???
Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 97):
A passenger aircraft isn't just anywhere.

It is to me.

No comment. Check please...........



Just when I think you've said the stupidest thing ever, you keep talkin'!
User currently offlineEWRCabincrew From United States of America, joined May 2006, 5523 posts, RR: 56
Reply 100, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 4501 times:

One thing to keep in mind, while it is an aircraft, a mode of transportation, it is our work environment. Our office, in a matter of speaking. That should be taken into consideration.

I can't bring a knife into my cousins work place, citing that its their work environment that needs to be made safer. It's a public building.

[Edited 2013-03-07 12:23:15]


You can't cure stupid
User currently offlinePITingres From United States of America, joined Dec 2007, 1139 posts, RR: 13
Reply 101, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 4433 times:

Quoting EWRCabincrew (Reply 101):
One thing to keep in mind, while it is an aircraft, a mode of transportation, it is our work environment. Our office, in a matter of speaking. That should be taken into consideration.

I'm quite certain that I could take a knife of the type being discussed into pretty much any office building in the country, possibly excluding public safety offices that have a higher than normal expectation of violent visitors.

We're not talking about Crocodile Dundee here, remember. We're talking about 6 cm or less, non-fixed blades. Even if you were to stand quietly and allow your assailant free access, I think it would take several tries or a well trained assailant to inflict a really serious wound with one of those things. I think you'd have a greater chance of having a toe run over with a galley truck and dying from sepsis.

I'll leave aside the question of whether the TSA rules are or should be aimed at protecting your work environment to this level, because I'll just be repeating myself.



Fly, you fools! Fly!
User currently offlineantoniemey From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 1555 posts, RR: 4
Reply 102, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 4435 times:

Quoting EWRCabincrew (Reply 101):
I can't bring a knife into my cousins work place, citing that its their work environment that needs to be made safer. It's a public building.

The metro courthouse aside, pretty much all public buildings I've been in have no postings, screenings, or searches concerned with small knives. Guns, on the other hand....

Quoting PITingres (Reply 102):
I'm quite certain that I could take a knife of the type being discussed into pretty much any office building in the country, possibly excluding public safety offices that have a higher than normal expectation of violent visitors.

  



Make something Idiot-proof, and the Universe will make a more inept idiot.
User currently offlineEWRCabincrew From United States of America, joined May 2006, 5523 posts, RR: 56
Reply 103, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 4404 times:

I stand by that the aircraft is my work environment and not having yet another possible weapon on board is better in my eyes.


You can't cure stupid
User currently offlineLoveTheSkies From United States of America, joined Dec 2008, 55 posts, RR: 0
Reply 104, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 4397 times:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...ried-hijack-plane-armed-knife.html

I guess my 1 in 4 chance of being the one targeted with these knives makes me look at this a little different than if I were 1 of 200?! Of course, the flight was never in danger... okaaayy?!!

A couple of years back one of my crew members was attacked, punched, and thrown around by a pax on landing. It took 6 pax in the area to subdue the attacker. I don't want to think about how bad my collegue could have been hurt if the guy had had a knife...


User currently offlinemanny From United States of America, joined Sep 2006, 473 posts, RR: 0
Reply 105, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 4388 times:

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 85):
As was said before, their are two reasons the hijackers succeeded in getting into the cockpit, and neither of those was "box cutters": they were a) non-reinforced cockpit doors and b) passenger complacency, both of which have been fixed.

You will never see a 9/11 style-attack on American soil for the next 100 years, and you can take that to the bank.

If that was the case why did they wait soooooo long ? Considering most airlines strengthened passenger doors in the time after the event and the passenger heightened state of awareness and action would have be more keen in the time right after the incident.

History may never repeat but it rhymes. And complacency always creeps in as time goes on. 100 years may be too optimistic. And what if the objective of these nut cases is to just harm as many people as possible in a confined space.

But milk is another story!


User currently offlineltbewr From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 13088 posts, RR: 12
Reply 106, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 4320 times:

How many 1000's of knives and similar sharp objects get by security now? I think part of this (along with some adjustments to the liquids bans/restrictions) is so many are bringing their only bag on board so don't have pay for a checked bag to put such stuff in. I am quite sure some suspicious persons will not be able to keep their knife after security, if this means more attention to guns and other weapons, then maybe this is a good thing.

As to the liquid bans, I would agree to not more than 1 liter per person, in clear/near clear plastic bottle with a screw on cap or a paper or plastic cup of a non-alcoholic beverage (coffee, tea, soda, water, juice, baby formula or breast milk ect.) should be allowed. Continue bans on cans and glass bottles. This would save travelers a lot of hassle and money (instead of paying extortonate prices after security for beverages).


User currently offlineaviateur From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 1352 posts, RR: 11
Reply 107, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 4302 times:

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 85):
As was said before, their are two reasons the hijackers succeeded in getting into the cockpit, and neither of those was "box cutters": they were a) non-reinforced cockpit doors and b) passenger complacency, both of which have been fixed. You will never see a 9/11 style-attack on American soil for the next 100 years, and you can take that to the bank.

Couldn't have said it better myself. (See my post, #91, above).


PS



Patrick Smith is an airline pilot, air travel columnist and author
User currently offlinewnflyguy From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2011, 522 posts, RR: 0
Reply 108, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 4200 times:

I'm still worried about snakes on a plane.


my post are my opinion only and not those of southwest airlines and or airtran airlines.
User currently offlineMaverick623 From United States of America, joined Nov 2006, 5601 posts, RR: 6
Reply 109, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 3908 times:

Quoting manny (Reply 106):
And what if the objective of these nut cases is to just harm as many people as possible in a confined space.

They'll do just as much damage with the things already allowed on an airplane, if they truly want to cause a ruckus.

Quoting ltbewr (Reply 107):
I am quite sure some suspicious persons will not be able to keep their knife after security

Not that the TSA or DHS has ever cared about this little document, but that would run afoul of the 14 Amendment (equal protection). You can't just take away someone's knife because they're "suspicious", when you are allowing everyone else to keep theirs. Even today, screeners aren't allowed to pick and choose what to keep and what not to keep based on "suspicion". There is a (mostly) clearly defined list of what you can and can't take through security.


And for the record, Kip Hawley was the worst person ever to run the TSA. His comments about letting machetes on the airplane pretty much prove he was, and is, a complete moron who got the job because of political favors.



"PHX is Phoenix, PDX is the other city" -777Way
User currently offlinemia305 From United States of America, joined Mar 2013, 319 posts, RR: 0
Reply 110, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 3759 times:

There's a small article in our local paper that the ceo of Delta joins
opposition to the knives.

Miami Herald 3/9/2013

"Delta ceo Richard Anderson said in a letter to TSA administrator
John Pistole that he shares the same legitimate concerns of the airline's
flight attendants about the new policy . Delta is the first major airline to
join the flight attendats, pilots, federal air marshals and insurance
companies in a burgeoning backlash to the policy announced on
Tuesday".

Very interesting.


User currently offlineJoeCanuck From Canada, joined Dec 2005, 5435 posts, RR: 30
Reply 111, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 3633 times:

There is no legitimate reason to have a knife on a plane. Sure, lots of other things, (which are available on aircraft), can be used on weapons but why would you need a knife on a plane?

The same argument in support of knifes in the cabins can be used for any weapon...how about guns? Most gunowners are law abiding people? How about bowie knives? If an almost 3 inch knife, (which can easily cause injury or death), is allowed, why not a 10 inch knife? The list goes on...brass knuckles, throwing stars, baseball bats, etc.

I think the base question should be; can what you're carrying have a legitimate reason for being in the cabin?

In the case of water, prescriptions, pens, id, paperwork, some extra clothing, valuables, cutlery, even nail clippers...the answer is yes.

In the case of a knife, no.

It's up to the passenger to take care what they are carrying through security. If you forget to put your favourite pocket knife in your luggage, c'est la vie and adios.



What the...?
User currently offlineairtechy From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 500 posts, RR: 0
Reply 112, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 3618 times:

If you, along with many other people, have to catch a bus to get from the airport parking lot to the terminal, should you be allowed to carry these knives? After all the same people who are on the shuttle bus may also be on the same plane with you. I would think the same concern of attack would apply. And come to think of it, the driver is not behind armored doors. A true sitting duck!

User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 25170 posts, RR: 22
Reply 113, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 3609 times:

Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 111):
There is no legitimate reason to have a knife on a plane. Sure, lots of other things, (which are available on aircraft), can be used on weapons but why would you need a knife on a plane?

Small scissors are permitted and they're not much different than a small knife. I agree there's no need to use a knife on a flight but if you have one in your pocket or in a carry-on bag it's much more convenient for the passenger if they can leave it there rather than being forced to check even a small carry-on just because you have a small knife within the permissible dimensions.


User currently offlineairtechy From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 500 posts, RR: 0
Reply 114, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 3592 times:

Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 111):
There is no legitimate reason to have a knife on a plane. Sure, lots of other things, (which are available on aircraft), can be used on weapons but why would you need a knife on a plane?

You are missing the point. I have no use for the knife on the plane. I have a use for the knife and the other tools....sometimes 20 or more...that are in the tool along with the knife WHEN I GET TO MY DESTINATION. I do not check baggage....would you for a one day trip? What if they decided that fingernail clippers were banned. Would you be willing to buy a new one every time you flew?

A gun....when fired...can obviously damage the airplane even if no one is harmed. To compare that to a knife with a short blade is ridiculous.  


User currently offlineatxpatriot811 From United States of America, joined Jan 2013, 13 posts, RR: 0
Reply 115, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 3545 times:

Quoting ytz (Reply 4):

The 9/11 hijackers had box cutters.

A 2.36" blade is still substantial enough to cause serious injury. Forget terrorism. There will be people getting stabbed during simple fisticuffs. And there is zero reason, anyone will need one in flight.

I'd rather they ease up on all that food and liquid rules over this.

Sure they could injure a few, but with the way passengers now react to potential terrorists, it'd be less than a minute before the entire plane gives any potential terrorist a major butt kicking! These days, passengers just won't put up with crap from terrorists anymore (not that we should have before 9/11).


User currently offlineaerorobnz From Rwanda, joined Feb 2001, 7184 posts, RR: 13
Reply 116, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 3522 times:

What is does show is how people are abusing the definition of hand carriage. It was designed originally to just be items you would use in flight, not for everything under the sun. A change of shirt perhaps, toothbrush & toothpaste, your laptop your camera etc etc

I believe that they needed to allow many other things, but nobody requires the use of a small knife inflight. Just put it in the checked bag and be done with it.


User currently offlineJoeCanuck From Canada, joined Dec 2005, 5435 posts, RR: 30
Reply 117, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 3491 times:

Quoting airtechy (Reply 114):

A gun....when fired...can obviously damage the airplane even if no one is harmed. To compare that to a knife with a short blade is ridiculous

Tell that to the person with a knife in the carotid, or the chest. How about the 9/11 victims killed with a small blade? Regardless of whether or not the plane would be in danger, passengers and crew are. And it's very unlikely any handgun could bring down an airliner from the inside, so we're obviously talking about injuring or killing people.

Why the 2.whatever inch limit? Why not allow swords on a plane. It could be argued that a sword is less dangerous since it can't be used stealthily and would be hindered by the small interior.

Any reasonable person can do without a pocket knife on either end of a flight if they had to give theirs up.

If you're flying, don't bring a knife...simple. We've been doing it for years and it hasn't been an issue...why is it an issue now?

Quoting atxpatriot811 (Reply 115):
Sure they could injure a few, but with the way passengers now react to potential terrorists, it'd be less than a minute before the entire plane gives any potential terrorist a major butt kicking! T

But in the meantime, how many could be seriously injured or killed. Right now, the plane itself is safe with the wisely reinforced cockpit doors...but the passengers and crew aren't.



What the...?
User currently offlineGlom From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2005, 2815 posts, RR: 10
Reply 118, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 3432 times:

Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 117):
But in the meantime, how many could be seriously injured or killed. Right now, the plane itself is safe with the wisely reinforced cockpit doors...but the passengers and crew aren't.

But as has been said, now you're getting into generic risks, not air travel specific ones. Why should air travel specifically be subject to security to stop risks that are tolerated everywhere else?


User currently offlineJoeCanuck From Canada, joined Dec 2005, 5435 posts, RR: 30
Reply 119, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 3399 times:

Quoting Glom (Reply 118):

What does it matter? Air traffic is already treated differently. You don't have tsa and scanners and marshals on trains or buses. Why are you so keen to have knives allowed on commercial airliners? I don't get it. It's not like it's a constitutional right to bear jack knives on aircraft.

If you want a little knife, why not a big knife? Why limit weapons or potential weapons at all? If you don't need to carry it, leave it at home...or lose it. If it has sentimental value, that should be thought of long before you get to the airport. I have never urgently needed a 2 1/2 inch knife as soon as I landed...or on a flight.

Has there been a plethora of complaints in the past decade by people complaining about not being able to pack their swiss army knife on the flight to visit grandma in Poughkeepsie?

Seems like a silly thing to me, and airlines don't want it but everyone is entitled to their own opinion. Personally, having the right to carry a small knife isn't a thing I'm willing to fight for.



What the...?
User currently offlinePITingres From United States of America, joined Dec 2007, 1139 posts, RR: 13
Reply 120, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 3346 times:

Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 119):
Air traffic is already treated differently. You don't have tsa and scanners and marshals on trains or buses.

It's hard to fly a bus into a building and bring the whole building down. That's why the TSA screens aircraft and not buses and trains. It follows, or should, that the TSA mandate is and should be all about things that can take over or crash the plane. Other than that, the TSA has no justification to enforce anything more unless it's free -- and screening isn't.

I despair of intelligent life on earth when I read all the comments, here and in the media in general, about "you don't need a knife on the plane". That's entirely correct, I don't need it on the plane. I need the gadget that my knife is attached to *at my destination*. If someone wants to pay my $50 bag fee every time I fly so that I can check my miniscule toiletries bag, I'll be happy to supply a paypal destination...



Fly, you fools! Fly!
User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7893 posts, RR: 52
Reply 121, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 3297 times:

Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 117):
Why the 2.whatever inch limit? Why not allow swords on a plane.
Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 119):
If you want a little knife, why not a big knife?

Why not nuclear bombs? Let's go the other way, let's not allow pencils...

Are we really going to go down the slippery slope road? You look at an item and you do a risk assessment. What one "needs" on an aircraft is not a road we want to go down, because technically you don't really "need" anything.

I'm still waiting to hear about all the 2.36" knife attacks out there. I can only think of 9/11 which was a ploy to get the cockpit doors open... training won't allow that to happen again.

Sure we can go without the knifes, sure we can check them in baggage (sucks for the people that only use carry on like me,) but really, it's a 2.36" knife, big whoop. It wasn't a problem before they were banned and I highly highly highly doubt they'd be a problem now. No one is talking about swords or machetes, we're talking about blades that are marginally more effective than a screwdriver (I'd argue the screwdriver would be more effective actually.)

BTW, are screwdrivers banned? You can do some terrible damage with them



Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlineKaiGywer From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 12242 posts, RR: 35
Reply 122, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 3274 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
FORUM MODERATOR

Quoting Bralo20 (Reply 57):
My point is, people with bad intentions really don't need a pocket knife, if one wants to harm someone or even try to hijack a plane there a plenty of ways to do it without having to smuggle something on board. Nearly everything on a plane can be used as a kind of weapon. Glass, alcohol, plastic, metal parts, everything is a potential weapon in the hands of people with knowledge and bad intentions. Banning liquids, pocket knifes, etc... doesn't make any sense anymore (nor it ever made any sense).

And all those items are allowed on planes already, hence I agree that banning small knives is stupid.

Quoting PITingres (Reply 64):
I take my chances against the crazies every day, in every public place, just like everyone else;

Exactly.

Quoting mia305 (Reply 75):
It wouldn't pose no risk to the flight but a 2 inch knife can hurt and kill
someone. I mean why take the chance of that happening.

Do you ever walk down the street? Could a crazy person or a robber come up to you with a knife?

Quoting PITingres (Reply 81):
If someone wants to be protected from a crazy randomly targeting people with a personal weapon (box cutter, whatever) I suggest that that person hire a personal bodyguard. It's not what the TSA checkpoint is for, at all.

Exactly.

A couple of funny ones I've came across lately :




911, where is your emergency?
User currently offlineGlom From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2005, 2815 posts, RR: 10
Reply 123, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 3190 times:

Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 119):
What does it matter? Air traffic is already treated differently. You don't have tsa and scanners and marshals on trains or buses. Why are you so keen to have knives allowed on commercial airliners? I don't get it. It's not like it's a constitutional right to bear jack knives on aircraft.

If you want a little knife, why not a big knife? Why limit weapons or potential weapons at all? If you don't need to carry it, leave it at home...or lose it. If it has sentimental value, that should be thought of long before you get to the airport. I have never urgently needed a 2 1/2 inch knife as soon as I landed...or on a flight.

Has there been a plethora of complaints in the past decade by people complaining about not being able to pack their swiss army knife on the flight to visit grandma in Poughkeepsie?

Seems like a silly thing to me, and airlines don't want it but everyone is entitled to their own opinion. Personally, having the right to carry a small knife isn't a thing I'm willing to fight for.

Air travel is treated differently because of the unique risks associated with it. Once those are managed, that's job done for airport security. It would be wrong in many ways to treat air travel differently over the generic risks. The argument that a pocket knife could be used to hijack a plane is a good one for saying pocket knifes shouldn't be allowed on planes, while allowing them everywhere else. The argument that a pocket knife might be used in a brawl on a plane isn't unless you're going to advocate disallowing pocket knives everywhere.


User currently offlineavnut43 From United States of America, joined Apr 2012, 20 posts, RR: 0
Reply 124, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 3115 times:

The cartoonist Walt Handelsman, did a comic panel with a couple of TSA agents singing that it is safe to take knives on a plane, but no liquid. You can see it at the link.

http://www.newsday.com/opinion/walt-...n-1.812005/new-tsa-rules-1.4762230


User currently offlineart From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2005, 3382 posts, RR: 1
Reply 125, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 3037 times:

I don't see any need for pax to take a knife on board. Swiss army knives are multifunctional but which of the non-blade extras could pax need on board? Would they need a corkscrew? No. A screwdriver? No. etc etc

If you have no need to use a knife on board (or extras in the same device as the knife), what is the disadvantage to the pax in it going in the cargo hold?


User currently offlineUnflug From Germany, joined Jan 2012, 475 posts, RR: 2
Reply 126, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 3021 times:

Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 119):
I don't get it.

That seems obvious  
Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 119):
If you want a little knife, why not a big knife?

because:

Quoting PITingres (Reply 120):
I despair of intelligent life on earth when I read all the comments, here and in the media in general, about "you don't need a knife on the plane". That's entirely correct, I don't need it on the plane. I need the gadget that my knife is attached to *at my destination*. If someone wants to pay my $50 bag fee every time I fly so that I can check my miniscule toiletries bag, I'll be happy to supply a paypal destination...


Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 119):
I have never urgently needed a 2 1/2 inch knife as soon as I landed...or on a flight.
Quoting art (Reply 125):
I don't see any need for pax to take a knife on board. Swiss army knives are multifunctional but which of the non-blade extras could pax need on board? Would they need a corkscrew? No. A screwdriver? No. etc etc

Unfortunately you are missing the point. It is not the task of TSA to find out what someone might need in flight or after a flight. The only question to answer is whether something is a danger to the operation of a flight. A small swiss knife is not.


User currently offlineart From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2005, 3382 posts, RR: 1
Reply 127, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 3028 times:

Quoting Unflug (Reply 126):
Unfortunately you are missing the point. It is not the task of TSA to find out what someone might need in flight or after a flight. The only question to answer is whether something is a danger to the operation of a flight. A small swiss knife is not.

OK, the test is whether something is a danger to the operation of a flight. If a small Swiss knife is not a danger now, how can it have been a danger before? Is the answer simply that the TSA are not capable of correctly assessing what constitutes a danger to the operation of a flight?


User currently offlineUnflug From Germany, joined Jan 2012, 475 posts, RR: 2
Reply 128, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 3 days ago) and read 3006 times:

Quoting art (Reply 127):
OK, the test is whether something is a danger to the operation of a flight. If a small Swiss knife is not a danger now, how can it have been a danger before? Is the answer simply that the TSA are not capable of correctly assessing what constitutes a danger to the operation of a flight?

a) Something that might have been a danger with open cockpit doors might not be a danger anymore today.
b) If you don't allow risk assessment to come to different conclusions when redone, there is no reason to redo it at all.


User currently offlineKaiGywer From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 12242 posts, RR: 35
Reply 129, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 2929 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
FORUM MODERATOR

I have noticed that most of the people arguing "just put it in your checked bag" are from Europe. As many have posted earlier in the thread, a lot of people don't check bags due to the added cost, something of which you are still mostly exempt from in Europe. I'd love to check a bag any time I fly, so I wouldn't need to carry it with me, alas, I'm not gonna spend the extra money unless absolutely necessary.


911, where is your emergency?
User currently offlinesilentbob From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 2081 posts, RR: 1
Reply 130, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 2893 times:

Quoting KaiGywer (Reply 129):
a lot of people don't check bags due to the added cost,

The fact that some people are cheap should be irrelevant. Should someone be permitted to take a rifle or handgun so they don't have to pay to check it?


User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7893 posts, RR: 52
Reply 131, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 2890 times:

Quoting KaiGywer (Reply 129):
I have noticed that most of the people arguing "just put it in your checked bag" are from Europe. As many have posted earlier in the thread, a lot of people don't check bags due to the added cost, something of which you are still mostly exempt from in Europe. I'd love to check a bag any time I fly, so I wouldn't need to carry it with me, alas, I'm not gonna spend the extra money unless absolutely necessary.

   I haven't checked a bag in years. So what's the big deal if I don't have a knife at my destination? What's the big deal about having a 2.36" blade on board? They weren't used before*, they aren't used today in the outside world*, and they won't be used after the ban is lifted

*Please, prove me wrong if I'm incorrect



Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlineKaiGywer From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 12242 posts, RR: 35
Reply 132, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 2852 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
FORUM MODERATOR

Quoting silentbob (Reply 130):
The fact that some people are cheap should be irrelevant. Should someone be permitted to take a rifle or handgun so they don't have to pay to check it?

As pointed out before. A bullet will puncture the skin of the aircraft, hence jeopardizing flight safety. A 2.36" knife will not.



911, where is your emergency?
User currently offlineantoniemey From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 1555 posts, RR: 4
Reply 133, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 2743 times:

Quoting art (Reply 125):
If you have no need to use a knife on board (or extras in the same device as the knife), what is the disadvantage to the pax in it going in the cargo hold?

Cost. It costs money to check a bag in the USA. The only airline that is different is Southwest, and THEY include that cost into their ticket price, though it's only obvious on the rock-bottom discount fares.

Quoting art (Reply 127):
Is the answer simply that the TSA are not capable of correctly assessing what constitutes a danger to the operation of a flight?

I think that has been conclusively proven, but no, it's not the answer.

Quoting silentbob (Reply 130):
The fact that some people are cheap should be irrelevant.

It would be one thing if it were, say, $5-$10 to check a bag, but it's not. That, at least, would be within the range of the price to mail or ship those small items you can't carry on with you to your destination and have them arrive in reasonable time. But... it's $25 or more... each way... which happens to be cheaper than shipping your whole bag, but I wouldn't call someone cheap for wanting to avoid that cost if the only thing they're carrying that someone might find objectionable is a 2" knife.



Make something Idiot-proof, and the Universe will make a more inept idiot.
User currently offlineJoeCanuck From Canada, joined Dec 2005, 5435 posts, RR: 30
Reply 134, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 2730 times:

Quoting Unflug (Reply 126):
Unfortunately you are missing the point. It is not the task of TSA to find out what someone might need in flight or after a flight. The only question to answer is whether something is a danger to the operation of a flight. A small swiss knife is not.

Nope...I'm not missing a point, I'm making a different point. I don't see anything wrong about banning knives from planes....you take it as an affront to personal freedoms.

We disagree...no big deal.



What the...?
User currently offlineXT6Wagon From United States of America, joined Feb 2007, 3396 posts, RR: 4
Reply 135, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 2726 times:

ok, seriously. How many people are mugged on a aircraft? Assaulted? Murdered?

People seem to feel the need to ban everything, then demand others to justify permissions.

Thats not how it is supposed to work in america.

Despite what some think, you CAN'T give your constitutional rights up with a mere "contract of carriage".

One of those is to not be subject to unreasonable search. It is that the government can't take your personal property without due process.

It it quite impossible to justify the search for small edged weapons, much less the confiscation of said items. POLICE OFFICERS can't grab you off the street and do it. They can't do it in malls. They can't do it in buses. Why then should non-law enforcement personnel be allowed to do it on the form of transportation with the lowest violent crime rate in the world?


User currently offlineUnflug From Germany, joined Jan 2012, 475 posts, RR: 2
Reply 136, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 2705 times:

Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 134):
Nope...I'm not missing a point, I'm making a different point.

But the point you make has no relevance in the decision whether lifting this ban is OK.

Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 134):
I don't see anything wrong about banning knives from planes

Actually in my personal opinion there is nothing wrong with banning them, I never in my life had one. But I agree with the TSA that there is just no reason to ban them. They pose no danger for flight safety, end of story.

Some people seeing nothing wrong with banning something cannot be enough reason for a ban.


User currently offlinesilentbob From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 2081 posts, RR: 1
Reply 137, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 2579 times:

Quoting KaiGywer (Reply 132):
As pointed out before. A bullet will puncture the skin of the aircraft, hence jeopardizing flight safety. A 2.36" knife will not.

Nope, but holding one to the throat of a passenger or crew member creates an serious problem in the aircraft. Has it happened before? I have no idea. But it took about three seconds to see how one could be used to create an in flight emergency. I rail against the absurdity of the TSA and dwindling civil liberties on a regular basis. I just think that this particular move does not make sense.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 131):
I haven't checked a bag in years. So what's the big deal if I don't have a knife at my destination? What's the big deal about having a 2.36" blade on board? They weren't used before*, they aren't used today in the outside world*, and they won't be used after the ban is lifted

Shoes and underwear weren't used to hide bombs before either. Fortunately, we're still permitted to wear them while flying and bombs are far more dangerous than knives.


User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7893 posts, RR: 52
Reply 138, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 2495 times:

Quoting silentbob (Reply 137):
Nope, but holding one to the throat of a passenger or crew member creates an serious problem in the aircraft. Has it happened before? I have no idea. But it took about three seconds to see how one could be used to create an in flight emergency.

Yeah but we can play that game with a ton of objects. Point still remains they are more or less harmless. I just read (not sure if it's true) that 7 inch screwdrivers are allowed... may not have the intimidation factor but honestly, you can do more damage with that than a 2.36" pocket knife. I won't go into any details, but I can show anyone that wants to PM me the damage screwdrivers can do.

I don't know, I just draw the "line" differently, I try not to live in paranoia. If it were up to me, I'd include up to 5.5 inch blades, that will include most your standard pocket knives, I believe the one I have is about 4



Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlineexFWAOONW From United States of America, joined Nov 2009, 404 posts, RR: 0
Reply 139, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 2467 times:

Is it too late to buy stock in Prozac? I don't know how some make it through the day with all the potential horrors (swiss army knives) around them.

Knives of resonable size were allowed on passenger aircraft for a hundred years. One event suddenly makes them unsafe? Finally, someone is unjerking the knee.



Is just me, or is flying not as much fun anymore?
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