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Why didn't the A300 have more orders?  
User currently offlinemia305 From United States of America, joined Mar 2013, 319 posts, RR: 0
Posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 16698 times:

When the A300 was put into to service why didn't more airlines acquire them?
I know AA had them as well as EA. CO got them through EA I believe and I know a few european
airlines had them. Why didn't more airlines acquire them?

They could carry a decent amount of pax and were freight hogs.

101 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15730 posts, RR: 26
Reply 1, posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 16673 times:

Quoting mia305 (Thread starter):
When the A300 was put into to service why didn't more airlines acquire them?

I imagine a lot of it had to do with short range compared to the DC-10 or L-1011. Plus you have to remember that at the time Airbus was a much smaller company with less ability to support their products around the world too.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlinemia305 From United States of America, joined Mar 2013, 319 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 16609 times:

When it was put into service I'd imagine the range was short but AA used them
to fly across the pond and to Lim. If memory serves me correctly EA & PA
used them on medium range routes too.


User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15730 posts, RR: 26
Reply 3, posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 16587 times:

Quoting mia305 (Reply 2):
When it was put into service I'd imagine the range was short but AA used them
to fly across the pond and to Lim.

American only ever had the -600 version with more range. The earlier versions were more limited. Also, for transatlantic, you're talking about East Coast to Western Europe, so more or less 757 range. I want to say that the transatlantic A300 flights American had were exclusively from JFK and BOS.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently onlineAeroWesty From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 20500 posts, RR: 62
Reply 4, posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 16526 times:

Quoting mia305 (Thread starter):

When the A300 was put into to service why didn't more airlines acquire them?

In a nutshell, the airlines were just bulking up with their new DC-10s and TriStars, plus beginning to bring the 767 into the fleets. European manufacturers didn't really have a track record for producing aircraft American carriers wanted, and those which did sell here, sold in small numbers. Airbus literally had to lease them to Eastern on a basis that was too good to be true to get them to test the A300. That worked fine for EA, since they didn't have the 767 on order, or much cash.

Lots more info here: How Did The US Accept The A300? (by 747400sp Oct 27 2011 in Civil Aviation)



International Homo of Mystery
User currently offlinemia305 From United States of America, joined Mar 2013, 319 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 16521 times:

Thanx. For the info. It's a shame though it could carry a lot of freight, hence the
nickname freight hog.

[Edited 2013-03-06 21:29:47]

User currently offlineSpaceshipDC10 From Canada, joined Jan 2013, 1706 posts, RR: 3
Reply 6, posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 16128 times:

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 3):
American only ever had the -600 version with more range.

American had A300-600R

Quoting mia305 (Thread starter):
CO got them through EA I believe

At first, CO only had six A300s for a while. They were all white tails.

These three were first delivered to SQ, then spent some time in storage before heading west.


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Those three were all undelivered white tails.


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Later, Lorenzo and and his 'great strategy' began to shift assets from EA to CO, including many A300s.



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User currently offlineRWA380 From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3185 posts, RR: 5
Reply 7, posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 16026 times:

Quoting SpaceshipDC10 (Reply 6):
At first, CO only had six A300s for a while. They were all white tails.

These three were first delivered to SQ, then spent some time in storage before heading west.

Not my favorite airplane, but I did get to fly EA PDX-SEA-PDX and CO EWR-SEA (when CO had their SEA-NRT flight, and the through flight number from EWR was operated by the A300), from a passenger standpoint, IMO, the A300 lacked something vs the L1011 or DC10, (and not just the tail engine).



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User currently offlinecelestar From Singapore, joined Jul 2001, 398 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 15980 times:

Personally, I think the A300 is one of my most favorite plane and it kind of introduce what future AIRBUS long/wide body plane looks like (I think A330/340 follow the same fuselarge)
It was very popular in Asia and for the first time, most intra-Asia flight can enjoy wide body comfort.
For some reason, aside from JAS in Japan, Airbus was not able to sell to ANA of JAL. ANA, despite a sales commission scandal, had a lot of Tristar, yet another of my favorite plane.
Find it hard to like DC 10, I do not appreciate its look for some reason. Again, very personal remark.


User currently onlinePanHAM From Germany, joined May 2005, 9277 posts, RR: 29
Reply 9, posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 15943 times:

LH used the A300 on certain TATL fölights, such as FRA-BOS and IIRC PA used the A300 on TATL as well, not only on flights radiating form JFK and the famous IGS internal German services.

Th A310 must be added to this discussion, which had a longer range and is still in use with some air forces such as the Canadian and the German. Plus, let's not forget freight, UPS and DHL have A300s and FX both the 300 and the 310. Plus a nu,mber pof smaller freight carriers who may use these a/c for some time to come.



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User currently offlinecol From Malaysia, joined Nov 2003, 2105 posts, RR: 22
Reply 10, posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 15874 times:

In Asia it was the staple diet. GA, SQ, MH, TG, PR, CI, MU, China Northern, CZ, QF, Sempati, KE, Air India, PK, Indian Airlines and others, all had fleets of them.

User currently offlineSpaceshipDC10 From Canada, joined Jan 2013, 1706 posts, RR: 3
Reply 11, posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 15861 times:

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 9):
LH used the A300 on certain TATL fölights, such as FRA-BOS

Yep, once they had the A300-600 and -600R.

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 9):
and IIRC PA used the A300 on TATL as well

I doubt that, PA used the A310-200 on trans-atlantic crossing and had to regularly fuel stop on the way. So with the shorter range of the A300B4-200, I doubt it seriously.



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User currently onlinePanHAM From Germany, joined May 2005, 9277 posts, RR: 29
Reply 12, posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 15684 times:

You forgot JAL who got some A300s through a merger with JD or whatever their name was.

Quoting SpaceshipDC10 (Reply 11):
shorter range of the A300B4-200, I doubt it seriously.

may be I am wroing but deep in my memory and in the latter days of PA they had to use what they had....



E's passed on! That parrot is no more! He has ceased to be! E's expired and gone to meet 'is maker!
User currently offlineokAY From Finland, joined Dec 2006, 652 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 15647 times:

AY used to operate two A300B4, which joined the fleet through the acquisition of Karair, a Finnish charter airline. The aircraft were used on charter services mainly to the Canaries.

User currently offlineSpaceshipDC10 From Canada, joined Jan 2013, 1706 posts, RR: 3
Reply 14, posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 15548 times:

Quoting mia305 (Thread starter):
I know a few european airlines had them.

Air France, Air Inter, Iberia, Alitalia, Olympic Airways, Lufthansa, Luxair. On the charter side, there was Condor, Hapag-Lloyd, Laker Airways, Germanair, Dan-Air London, Orion Air, Trans European Airways, amongst others.

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 12):
You forgot JAL who got some A300s through a merger with JD or whatever their name was.

At merger time, they were indeed Japan Air System, but before that they were Toa Domestic Airlines.

In the US, there was Northeastern for a couple of years.



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User currently offlinemia305 From United States of America, joined Mar 2013, 319 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 15454 times:

Why didn't more us airlines squire them that time

User currently offlineSpaceshipDC10 From Canada, joined Jan 2013, 1706 posts, RR: 3
Reply 16, posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 15397 times:

Quoting mia305 (Reply 15):
Why didn't more us airlines squire them that time

Which airlines and at what time ?



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User currently offlinemia305 From United States of America, joined Mar 2013, 319 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 15361 times:

Airbus made two variants A300B4- 200 and the 600

I just read the posted link above and it only mentioned EA, CO & PA.
Why didn't more us airlines aquire either version?


User currently offlinePRAirbus From Puerto Rico, joined Apr 2005, 1136 posts, RR: 1
Reply 18, posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 15236 times:

AA had the A300-600R, delivered brand new from Airbus! AA used A300s on many missions, intial ones JFK-SJU runs, then most of the Caribbean from JFK/MIA and from the SJU hub to many US destinations. SJU-ORD-LAS was a route that lasted for a few years. MIA-LAX too use to get A300s.

User currently offlinexdlx From United States of America, joined Aug 2008, 635 posts, RR: 1
Reply 19, posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 15056 times:

Remember also... the A300 arrived before the B75/767 and as a twin it was somewhat a trendsetter. As discussed prevously it ws the first Airbii to enter the US market, first twin widebody, ONLY EA in the US purchased the aircraft initially.

User currently offlineTheSonntag From Germany, joined Jun 2005, 3564 posts, RR: 29
Reply 20, posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 14580 times:

When Airbus offered the A300, many doubted this company would exist 5 years later. Way too many national projects of European companies had failed before.

Also, ETOPS was unknown, and no one had seen a widebody with 2 engines before. Airbus only became a "real" competitor after the A320 was introduced and Boeing merged with McDD.


User currently offlineAT From United States of America, joined Jul 2000, 1025 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 14495 times:

I have a fond, nostalgic view of the A300 as it was the primary aircraft I flew on as a child and teenager. (PIA, Indian, Emirates, Thai, Lufthansa, Air France). This is pure aesthetics, but I used to find the A300 cabin sleeker and more elegantly contoured and lit than the competition. And I was always fascinated by the doors, which pushed out rather than rotated. That has now become pretty much the norm now. Funnily enough, Emirates' A300s (which, incidentally were the first aircraft I ever flew on with personal television sets) were then the largest aircraft in their fleet. Now, EK's smallest aircraft, the A330 is bigger than that! How times have changed.

User currently offlinemia305 From United States of America, joined Mar 2013, 319 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 14480 times:

I remember flying MIA-LAX on AA A300. The plane was full and when we landed I
asked the pilot how heavy we were, can't remember that exact weight but the front
cargo hold was full of freight and part of the aft cargo was also freight as well as mail
and bags. Amazing what they could carry


User currently offlineAY-MD11 From Finland, joined Feb 2001, 472 posts, RR: 2
Reply 23, posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 14384 times:

Dont know did PA fly the A300(lack of range?) to Europe but once i flew in PA A310-300 JFK-HEL via ARN in 1989. It had leaking wing fuel tank when we where inside the plane at JFK so there was few hour delay.

User currently offlinemia305 From United States of America, joined Mar 2013, 319 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 14339 times:

They also had the nickname of scare bus. They would be constantly
braking down or maintenance issues. I never had a problem flying on them
quite nice


25 SpaceshipDC10 : UA and AA received DC-10-10 up until the early 1980s from their original orders. Transworld Airlines (USA)">TW, if I remember well enough, also rec
26 mia305 : Thanx for all the info on this post.
27 Pihero : By that time they had the 767 and the possibility of one type-rating with the 757. ... and add Transavia, SAS, Swissair, Sabena...
28 CF-CPI : The A300 took a few years to find its niche. It was originally envisioned as a widebody for European carriers between large city pairs. The first vers
29 SpaceshipDC10 : No and no. Both SR and SN never had A300s As you see on the link I provided earlier, there were four different variants, three of which had several s
30 discovery1 : As was mentioned the early A300s were short legged. Also I believe they had problems climbing fast enough to get over the Rockies when flying from th
31 AeroWesty : The highest peak in the US Rockies isn't even 15,000 feet. How could the A300 not make it over the mountain range with a 2-hour head start?
32 AT : what does "white tails" mean? A number of posters have referred to this:
33 AeroWesty : A manufacturer producing a plane on spec, without there being a firm customer order behind it.
34 dergay : Don't forget BCal (British Caledonian) as a 310 operator. You also had a hodge-podge of North African operators including RAM, Air Algerie, Tunisair
35 Pihero : True . They were A310, but it was an answer to :
36 SpaceshipDC10 : White tails are aircraft built for which the manufacturer has no customer either because some orders were canceled while production on said aircraft
37 NorthStarDC4M : Produced models of the A300: Model - Number Produced A300B1 - 2 A300B2-100 - 14 A300B2-1C - 16 A300B2-200 - 11 A300B2K - 14 A300B4-100 - 51 A300B4-200
38 american 767 : In the narrow body market yes. But don't forget that a few years before when Boeing introduced the 767, back in the early 80s, it was already a direc
39 SpaceshipDC10 : As already said, Airbus and its aircraft were all new to the market. By the end of 1980, 120 aircraft were delivered worldwide, while there were 339
40 Max Q : Trivia, At Continental when the engines on our A300's were getting high in hours and cycles with subsequent deterioration in performance they would of
41 Viscount724 : And YUL and PHL. LH's use of the A300 on TATL was fairly brief. I can't recall Pan Am ever using their A300s, which were the shorter range B4-200 mod
42 Max Q : Pan Am flew to Iceland ?
43 Post contains links Viscount724 : Yes, until sometime in the mid-1970s, when KEF still had a major U.S. military presence. In the early '60s KEF was also one of Pan Am's last propelle
44 Post contains images NWAROOSTER : Not that I was an Airbus fan, I always wondered the following. When Northwest stopped flying their DC-10-40s across the Pacific, as Northwest's DC-10s
45 Viscount724 : Only the A300-600 had a two person flight crew. The early model A300B4-200 like those operated by Eastern and Continental had a 3-person flight crew.
46 SpaceshipDC10 : No, the A300B4-200FF (Forward-Facing) existed too. On Wikipedia it is said it was the world first widebody aircraft with 2 crew cockpit. Garuda was t
47 Post contains images NWAROOSTER : Thanks........ I forgot the early A300s had a three man crew.
48 Polot : You are missing another reason. NW already owned and had its employee's trained on the DC-10. Buying new A300s and training their crews on them proba
49 Post contains images NWAROOSTER : I am talking about 1980 or so. Yes, I had stated Northwest already had the DC-10, and also did not mention that the Iron Fisted Donald Nyrop was in c
50 Flyingsottsman : QF only had 4 in their fleet, they were ordered for TAA and placed on the SYD/MEL/BNE corridoor just after the 2 airline policy was scrapped. When TAA
51 Post contains links SpaceshipDC10 : Actually, the four A300s were painted just before or after the merger in 1993, not 1992. Although QF only got four of these, TAA ordered and received
52 Post contains images Flyingsottsman : 1993 was it I do stand to be corrected I only ever remember seeing 1 A300 in QF colours.
53 vfw614 : We are really talking about a different time - when airlines were not ordering airplanes by the dozen, but smaller orders which today would hardly be
54 SpaceshipDC10 : As I said in a previous post, the A300 outnumbered the Trijets and outlasted them in production since the last one was delivered in 2007 while the la
55 FlyCaledonian : One of the big gaps in the operators for the A300 is BA - BEA orderd the TriStar 1 for its European operations (althought they entered service in BA c
56 lightsaber : The A300 had the issue of economics at Range. While the A310 was a great idea, it simply didn't have the economics to take on the 763ER. Late in its c
57 RomeoBravo : The A300 sold 561 and the A310 sold 255. 816 is a decent return and perfectly respectable for a first attempt at a family i think. The 767 only sold 1
58 AngMoh : It has often be stated that the A300 introduced / forced ETOPS by Asian carriers flying across the Bay of Bengal and South China Sea as they were not
59 vfw614 : I would not call 561 "not enough more". What do you expect from a WB airplane sold / built from the mid 70s to mid 90s? I am under the impression tha
60 Post contains links AeroWesty : I don't see why not, as the distance covered is only in the 2,500-2,700 mile range for most transcon routes. I'm not sure how accurate wikipedia is o
61 vfw614 : The max range for the B2/B4 at max payload was approx. 1700-1800nm. The later -600R of course had longer legs, but it did only appear in the mid 1980
62 Post contains links AeroWesty : I was going by the B4 range cited by the a.net article about the A300, which gives it a range of about 3,000nm give or take: http://www.airliners.net
63 Viscount724 : Agree. I consider A300/310 family sales an excellent performance for a company that was a totally unknown quantity when the A300 was launched. The 81
64 AirbusA6 : When compared with most other European projects before the A300 (Caravelle, Mercure, One-eleven, Trident etc) or the L-1011, you'd have to say the A30
65 yyz717 : The earlier A300B and the later A300-600 are really 2 different aircraft. The "B" as mentioned had 3-crew (apart from the FF version) while the 600 ha
66 Stratofish : Except for the very few early models that didn't have the wingtip fences. There was at least one infamous VIP frame that I can think of without them.
67 maxpower1954 : This has to do with single-engine performance, called "driftdown altitude" You can be cruising at 330 on two, lose or shutdown one and it's coming do
68 vfw614 : Not sure. Airbus no longer lists the A300B2/4 in the "out of produxtion section". A current operator, DHL, gives the range for its A300B4 as follows:
69 maxpower1954 : I flew two round trips in May-June 1981 on Eastern A-300s between MIA and SFO - a great circle distance of 2,241 nm. And the flights were full or very
70 Post contains links Viscount724 : Pan Am's A310s were used on many transatlantic routes, mainly the long-range A310-300s. The shorter-range A310-200s were used heavily on tag-on secto
71 Stratofish : Interesting, thanx. They even used a mix of A300 and 747 between LAX, SFO and SEA
72 Post contains images lightsaber : When the competition breaks a thousand (767), I would say 'not enough more.' A 'reasonable success,' but not more. You'll find I'm not very US centri
73 YVRLTN : Interesting to note some of these came from Monarch, who of course still operate the type, though not for much longer. Interesting to me anyway becau
74 seahawk : If the A300-600R would have come earlier, it would have sold better. The first versions were not potimized by the market, but by what politicians in E
75 sailas : I remember LH flying FRA to HEL with the 600R before they were taken out of the LH fleet. Apparently so many tourists from Germany coming to Finland.
76 Pacific : I do wonder what the trip costs of the A300 is like, compared to the A330 on a 6 hour/2,500nm flight which is around the max payload range of the -600
77 vfw614 : You cannot compare the A300 and the 767 the way you do. The 767-300 which is the mainstay of the 767 family and is closest to the A300 capacity-wise
78 Pihero : I totally agree, as the A310 was called until it was sold the A300-B10. Plus, the transformations of the 767 in termsd of size, equipment are quite c
79 speedygonzales : As of February Airbus has sold 2439 and delivered 2144 planes sharing the A300 fuselage.
80 Post contains images OA260 : I have fond memories of the A300 and took lots of flights with OA LHR-ATH in the 80's and early 90's on it. Such a wonderful aircraft. .
81 Viscount724 : You have to include the 255 A310s as they were the same family. The A310 was basically a shortened A300-600. Excluding A310 sales when discussing the
82 SpaceshipDC10 : There was most probably the problems and fears concerning a big commitment with the TriStar and, around the world, which of the two manufacturer's na
83 SEPilot : These two events are about ten years apart. By the time of the Boeing-MDD merger Airbus was clearly the number two (soon to be #1), with the A300, A3
84 EA CO AS : IIRC, at least 2 of EA's initial deliveries were B2K models.
85 bennett123 : I imagine that two factors that told against the A300 were firstly that the airlines had existing contacts with Boeing/MDD and the side sticks.
86 Post contains links and images Viscount724 : The A300 and A310 do not have sidesticks. They have standard control columns. View Large View MediumPhoto © Felix Gottwald
87 bennett123 : Silly mistake. However, I think that the airlines existing relationships with Boeing/MDD were a factor.
88 XT6Wagon : yah, only they were pretty much two different planes. The A310 shared very little with the A300 that came before, and the A300-600 used the A310 fuse
89 Viscount724 : The A300 and A310 have more in common than any of the Boeing types you mention. I believe the A300-600 (more than half of all A300s built) have a com
90 longhauler : The A300B was very advanced for its day. In fact a lot of basic premises introduced on that aircraft still exist on new build Airbuses ... like SRS. A
91 b2319 : According to my MU desktop app, the A300-600 seats 24 first and 250 economy seats; total 274. the A330-200 seats 24 business and 240 economy seats; t
92 NorthStarDC4M : I wouldn't call them part of the "initial" deliveries.. Eastern acquired 2 A300B2Ks that had been sold to and returned by Iran Air (I've never been c
93 Max Q : I really like the older Airbus Aircraft, the A300, A310 and A300-600R were and are fine machines. I used to enjoy riding on them very much when we had
94 ME AVN FAN : When the A300 came it was a total "unknwn" - Nobody knew whether the new consortium would stay in business for more than 5 years. Nobdy knew whether
95 Pihero : I agree, it was a very comfy, well laid out cockpit. The "Porsche Design Agency", in those days were at the tip of "design", doing furniture, lighter
96 cmhwn57 : I remember working the A300 at Eastern when it was a scheduled PHXATL run in the early 80s. And yes it was a freight hog and it was one of the easiest
97 TrijetsRMissed : I assume he meant when the A320-200 became established in the early/mid '90s. Even with a full lineup of offerings, Airbus did not surpass MDC in EFO
98 RayChuang : I think the relatively short range of the A300B4 and the fact Boeing captured a lot of the widebody twin market with the 767 was why the A300B wasn't
99 Pihero : True. People do not remember that the 320 sold some 500 frames before its first flight, which was by then a phenomenal success... and it kept being a
100 Post contains links longhauler : I only encountered the sniffer fan on the A300B4 and the A310. But I understand it was also on the A300-600. It was a direct air link, aided by a fan
101 Post contains images Pihero : Thanks ! I've never heard of that one : "the movable tube is provided for olfactory confirmation of smoke in the avionics compartment"... I love it !
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