AirDance From United States of America, joined Feb 2013, 12 posts, RR: 0 Posted (2 months 1 week 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 11139 times:
According to the Daily Press in Newport News, "People Express airlines has signed a purchase agreement to buy an unnamed charter airline, a company official said, potentially launching the rebirth of the 1980s airline out of the Newport News-Williamsburg International Airport. In an email, People Express president Michael Morisi told the Daily Press that the purchase agreement had been signed, and that a $500,000 refundable loan that was used to help finance the purchase was returned to taxpayers."
The article also stated that additional details would be released on Monday, so the employees of the charter airline could be notified of the purchase before the "public" announcement happened.
LAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 22053 posts, RR: 51 Reply 1, posted (2 months 1 week 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 11079 times:
srbmod From United States of America, joined Mar 2001, 16888 posts, RR: 51 Reply 2, posted (2 months 1 week 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 10798 times:
Since there are several charter airlines that currently operate the 737-400, it does narrow down the potential airline being acquired. I'm thinking that it's either Sky King or Swift Air that they buy, with Vision or Xtra being not as likely. Then again, Ryan Int'l just went under and they might be able to buy the remains of the airline on the cheap.
AirDance From United States of America, joined Feb 2013, 12 posts, RR: 0 Reply 5, posted (2 months 1 week 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 8523 times:
Looking at the FAA Airline Certificate Information website of the potential charters mentioned, Xtra Airways is the only carrier that appears to have a fleet of only 5 Boeing 737's. The website also states that the carrier has its domestic and flag certification.
sunking737 From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 1930 posts, RR: 9 Reply 6, posted (2 months 1 week 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 8045 times:
IMHO its Skyking as they are operating under Chap. 11. They filed in Aug. '12. Skyking does have 737-400 and the moved their Maintenance Base to Lakeland Linder Airport in Lakeland, Florida.
Wingtips56 From United States of America, joined Dec 2010, 216 posts, RR: 0 Reply 7, posted (2 months 1 week 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 7547 times:
Do you think PeoplExpress is truly married to only having the 734? Is that really the hard granite limitation on which certificates (airlines) they would pursue? Why not someone with any 73xNG or even A320 family?
Worked for WestAir, Apollo Airways, Desert Pacific, Western, AirCal and American Airlines
tarmacphotos From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 309 posts, RR: 2 Reply 8, posted (2 months 1 week 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 7528 times:
I too was wondering why they would limit themselves to this one specific aircraft (734). I can see not wanting a mixed fleet for economical reasons, but what does it matter if they are all either Airbus 320 family or 73x family?
Also, If this gets off the ground it could be perfect timing since they are considering PIT as their hub and there will soon be an empty state of the art ops center and other buildings available at PIT courtesy the AA/US merger. PIT would be a lot better choice than Newport News for a hub for several reasons including better facilities, better location, more population ect. PIT was built as a hub so I think it would be a no brainer if the ACAA who runs PIT gives them some incentives.
LAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 22053 posts, RR: 51 Reply 9, posted (2 months 1 week 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 7316 times:
I think they were looking at the 734 as they offer good capacity while cheap to acquire.
According to their DOT filings that had signed agreement on 12 ex Qantas sisterships.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
steeler83 From United States of America, joined Feb 2006, 8811 posts, RR: 19 Reply 10, posted (2 months 1 week 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 7280 times:
Quoting tarmacphotos (Reply 8): Also, If this gets off the ground it could be perfect timing since they are considering PIT as their hub and there will soon be an empty state of the art ops center and other buildings available at PIT courtesy the AA/US merger. PIT would be a lot better choice than Newport News for a hub for several reasons including better facilities, better location, more population ect. PIT was built as a hub so I think it would be a no brainer if the ACAA who runs PIT gives them some incentives.
Two things...
I'm thinking regardless of why they're initially going with the 734, they'll be used to build/establish the airline first, and then eventually phased out in favor of newer 737 or perhaps A320s. I guess they were going with the 734s because they were the cheapest aircraft at the time when they were trying to secure their own certificate rather than buying another small airline for use of that one. Given that, however, that is a good question. Why not just secure a an airline certificate that used newer 737/A320 equipment?
About the possible PIT ops, I though the ACAA is already throwing incentives at them...
Do not bring stranger girt into your room. The stranger girt is dangerous, it will hurt your life.
DTWPurserBoy From United States of America, joined Feb 2010, 537 posts, RR: 2 Reply 11, posted (2 months 1 week 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 6997 times:
IMHO what they really want to purchase is the operating certificate. They won't want the employees and airplanes are readily available around the world.
The real headache in an airline startup is writing the manuals and getting them approved by the feds. That is a very time consuming task.
steeler83 From United States of America, joined Feb 2006, 8811 posts, RR: 19 Reply 12, posted (2 months 1 week 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 6689 times:
Quoting DTWPurserBoy (Reply 11): IMHO what they really want to purchase is the operating certificate. They won't want the employees and airplanes are readily available around the world.
The real headache in an airline startup is writing the manuals and getting them approved by the feds. That is a very time consuming task.
That's a good point.
Will they be able to effectively launch in a few months? Their time frame is still June, isn't it? They might be cutting it close...
Do not bring stranger girt into your room. The stranger girt is dangerous, it will hurt your life.
srbmod From United States of America, joined Mar 2001, 16888 posts, RR: 51 Reply 15, posted (2 months 1 week 21 hours ago) and read 6348 times:
Quoting steeler83 (Reply 12): Their time frame is still June, isn't it? They might be cutting it close...
They could always contract the airline they're acquiring to fly on their behalf until the deal is closed.
Quoting DTWPurserBoy (Reply 11): They won't want the employees and airplanes are readily available around the world.
What PeoplExpress wants is essentially a turnkey airline, which means more than acquiring an operating certificate and manuals. They will need employees rather quickly once they get gov't approval for their operations in order to get the airline off of the ground as quickly as possible and that's what buying an existing operator gives them. I'm guessing that the airline will contract out their airport operations as much as possible in order to keep costs down, even at PIT and PHF.
DTWPurserBoy From United States of America, joined Feb 2010, 537 posts, RR: 2 Reply 16, posted (2 months 1 week 20 hours ago) and read 6284 times:
Quoting srbmod (Reply 15): What PeoplExpress wants is essentially a turnkey airline, which means more than acquiring an operating certificate and manuals. They will need employees rather quickly once they get gov't approval for their operations in order to get the airline off of the ground as quickly as possible and that's what buying an existing operator gives them. I'm guessing that the airline will contract out their airport operations as much as possible in order to keep costs down, even at PIT and PHF.
This is partially correct but one must remember that People's advertised business model is entirely different from a traditional airline. At these carriers, flight attendants are flight attendants, pilots fly airplanes and rampers load and unload aircraft and agents check people in and check luggage. People's is reverting to the original business model by the former EWR-based airline that used cross utilization. Pilots flew some days and were managers on the others. Flight attendants flew some days, worked as res agents some days and at the ticket counter on others. This was the same for all of the employee groups. Everything was done on a "team" basis." Even the pilots did not wear traditional pilots uniforms that immediately identified them as pilots. IIRC they were not called captain or first officer but "team leaders" or some such thing. It was confusing to the employees, customers and became a nightmare to manage. Eventually they transitioned to a more traditional system--pilots got REAL uniforms and traditional titles (critical in order to quickly identify the Chain of Command)., as did the flight attendants.
Employees that worked under a traditional system would find it almost impossible to switch to the old system overnight and frankly most would refuse, especially at the low starting wage. Another thing to consider is that this incarnation of the airline, like the previous, requires all of their employees to purchase stock in the new company putting their personal finances at increased risk. The amount required was based upon your salary level and was non-negotiable. Would any a.netters care to invest in this project? Not I, thank you.
I really think trying to revert to a failed business model dooms the project. I would stick to the "KISS" principle. There is no shortage of experienced airline employees that are laid off that might want to give it a shot but I have serious doubts about its long-term viability. Just my humble opinion.
srbmod From United States of America, joined Mar 2001, 16888 posts, RR: 51 Reply 17, posted (2 months 1 week 19 hours ago) and read 6255 times:
Quoting DTWPurserBoy (Reply 16): People's is reverting to the original business model by the former EWR-based airline that used cross utilization. Pilots flew some days and were managers on the others. Flight attendants flew some days, worked as res agents some days and at the ticket counter on others. This was the same for all of the employee groups. Everything was done on a "team" basis." Even the pilots did not wear traditional pilots uniforms that immediately identified them as pilots. IIRC they were not called captain or first officer but "team leaders" or some such thing. It was confusing to the employees, customers and became a nightmare to manage. Eventually they transitioned to a more traditional system--pilots got REAL uniforms and traditional titles (critical in order to quickly identify the Chain of Command)., as did the flight attendants.
I was under the impression they were recycling the name, not the business plan. That's also the impression that the writers of various articles on the airline have gotten as well. There's nothing on their website that even gives that impression either.
DTWPurserBoy From United States of America, joined Feb 2010, 537 posts, RR: 2 Reply 20, posted (2 months 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 5766 times:
Quoting srbmod (Reply 17): I was under the impression they were recycling the name, not the business plan. That's also the impression that the writers of various articles on the airline have gotten as well. There's nothing on their website that even gives that impression either.
The original article in the Daily Press here on the Virginia peninsula quoted the CEO as confirming they were going to crosstrain. I wil search the paper's archives to see if I can locate the entire piece.
DTWPurserBoy From United States of America, joined Feb 2010, 537 posts, RR: 2 Reply 21, posted (2 months 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 5628 times:
Found it!
This is a quote from an article entitled "PeoplExpress Chief Thinks Big" published on Feb 12, 2012 in The Daily Press of Newport News, VA. The author was Jon Crawley.
"To be profitable in an unstable industry, PeoplExpress intends to adhere to a cost-constrained management structure, use a cross-trained and non-unionized workforce."
Another article from the same publication states that employee stock ownership will be mandatory and partially paid for out of profit-sharing.
Search The Daily Press archives for more informaton.
"
jerseyguy From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 1115 posts, RR: 0 Reply 22, posted (2 months 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 5509 times:
Its too bad that PeoplExpress 2013 didn't form sooner they may have been able to atleast make TTN a focus city and get some of the NYC name recognition that the old PE had back in the day. Too late now, TTN is at capacity with Frontier.
ItalianFlyer From United States of America, joined Nov 2007, 948 posts, RR: 2 Reply 23, posted (2 months 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 5427 times:
Quoting jerseyguy (Reply 22): Its too bad that PeoplExpress 2013 didn't form sooner they may have been able to atleast make TTN a focus city and get some of the NYC name recognition that the old PE had back in the day. Too late now, TTN is at capacity with Frontier.
I thought the same thing....but then new PE is fighting for the same NYC/NNJ/SePA customers everyone else is chasing with a huge capital disadvantage. Focusing on PIT seems like a reasonable business plan; the city's metrics are moving in the right direction...western PA and NE OH are riding a shale oil boom and the airport authority is VERY motivated to make sweetheart deals. I am not saying I think the project is a home-run. PIT ain' t JFK, Morris is not Neeleman, used -400s are not new 320s, investors are not lining up and the economy isnt 1999.
steeler83 From United States of America, joined Feb 2006, 8811 posts, RR: 19 Reply 24, posted (2 months 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 5335 times:
Quoting ItalianFlyer (Reply 23): I am not saying I think the project is a home-run. PIT ain' t JFK, Morris is not Neeleman, used -400s are not new 320s, investors are not lining up and the economy isnt 1999.
True, but PIT isn't a stagnant economy anymore either. Not to mention, the airport debt could potentially be paid off sooner rather than later depending on how this shale deal plays out...
Do not bring stranger girt into your room. The stranger girt is dangerous, it will hurt your life.
ItalianFlyer From United States of America, joined Nov 2007, 948 posts, RR: 2 Reply 25, posted (2 months 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 5320 times:
Quoting steeler83 (Reply 24): True, but PIT isn't a stagnant economy anymore either
I agree....see my remark "the city's are moving in the right direction'. Logical vortex for upstate NY (showing signs of economic life)....Ohio....Canada....eastern seaboard....the mid-Atlantic and Tidewater. Oh look......Its Allegheny!!!
Didnt mean to come off as minimizing PIT and western PA and your turn-around. I was just making a tongue and cheek comparision between PE & B6.
Antoniemey From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 1505 posts, RR: 4 Reply 27, posted (2 months 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 5230 times:
Quoting DTWPurserBoy (Reply 21):
"To be profitable in an unstable industry, PeoplExpress intends to adhere to a cost-constrained management structure, use a cross-trained and non-unionized workforce."
Cross-trained could indicate anything from rampers and counter agents being able to do both jobs up to the idea of F/As doubling as gate agents. It really doesn't mean much. Every major airline has at least one station where cross-trained personnel are present, even if those workers are employees of a contractor like DGS or Swissport.
Make something Idiot-proof, and the Universe will make a more inept idiot.
dabpit From United States of America, joined May 2012, 80 posts, RR: 0 Reply 28, posted (2 months 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 5102 times:
A cross-trained workforce will benefit the company in the long run. Also if everyone is shown how to do the other jobs at the company (even if it is the bare basics) it will give everyone a better understanding of how everything fits together and will offer a better appreciation for fellow co-workers. A plus side would be that maybe someone finds a job that they are better at and can offer more value to the company.
Profit sharing can lead to a more productive workforce since everyone will be invested in the company and will therefore want the company to do well (in theory but you will still get a bad apple here and there).
DTWPurserBoy From United States of America, joined Feb 2010, 537 posts, RR: 2 Reply 29, posted (2 months 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 4995 times:
They will have to recruit a unique group of employees that are willing to buy into such a system. I check their website almost daily and it always says there are no openings currently availble.
Since most, if not all of the senior management are from EWR People staff when they use the term "crosstrain" I would assume they intend it in the way it was originally used. In theory it sounds good to have everyone know everyone else's job but what happens is that no one becomes really great at any one job because they get bounced around so much. Ask an original PE employee how much they enjoyed crosstraining--they hated it and eventually people found that they would rather be flight attendants, rampers, agents or res staff full time. Happy employees make for good customer service. Startups do not have stellar records of making enough profit to "share." The landscape is littered with the remains of startups that were well-capitalized, well run and with enthusiastic employees. It's a tough business to break into.
Their plan of serving underutilized airports like PHF and PIT is smart. I am sure many airports will give them incentives to fly in there. There is a definite need for service out of PHF to BOS, PVD, BUF, MHT and many Florida cities without having to transit busy airports like ATL, CLT or BWI.
I think I would start off by leasing aircraft rather than purchasing although the cost of buying a 737-400 may be cheaper than leasing an A319/320 or later model 737. Leasing would preserve cash for other purposes. And you can be sure that carriers that even start to feel pressured will undercut their fares as has happened many times in the past.
I wish them well--I will be a happy user of the service out of PHF!
dabpit From United States of America, joined May 2012, 80 posts, RR: 0 Reply 30, posted (2 months 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 4972 times:
I am not saying go back to the original model of in depth cross training because it is not realistic and does not make much business sense. Now giving everyone a general understanding of the other jobs is a different story. Now it does make sense to cross train a gate agent as a ramp worker (just a quick example).
Yes PX will do really well in cities such as: PIT, PHF, PVD, DAB, PBI and etc. all under served airports.
bennett123 From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2004, 6359 posts, RR: 1 Reply 31, posted (2 months 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 4730 times:
Not being facetious, but there are serious limits to crosstraining.
Certain roles such as Flight Crew, Mechanics and Cabin Crew require significant periods of training.
Clearly, you can not put people into these roles without training. Furthermore, if a FA spends time on the ramp or on Reservations, then how soon will this skills fade, and re training be needed.
ItalianFlyer From United States of America, joined Nov 2007, 948 posts, RR: 2 Reply 32, posted (2 months 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 4726 times:
Quoting bennett123 (Reply 33): Clearly, you can not put people into these roles without training. Furthermore, if a FA spends time on the ramp or on Reservations, then how soon will this skills fade, and re training be needed.
Some of the original PE people I've flown with said this was a serious problem. That and rampant theft.
Cross-functionality can work within limits; e.g. Pilots doing dispatch/W&B/SOC duties...FAs doing administration and scheduling detail and the proven above/below the wing model. IMHO it is when you have FA's manning the check-in counters and flight ops throwing bags is where things could get messy.
Does anyone know, pref from experience, how duty rigs work for cross-function crew? If someone did two 9 hour days of ground work, dosen't that impact time available for flight duty??
dabpit From United States of America, joined May 2012, 80 posts, RR: 0 Reply 33, posted (2 months 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 4448 times:
Quoting bennett123 (Reply 33): Certain roles such as Flight Crew, Mechanics and Cabin Crew require significant periods of training.
Those that you listed really should not be cross trained because like you said they already require a lot of training. However they can still be given a background on the other company positions.
Quoting bennett123 (Reply 31): Clearly, you can not put people into these roles without training. Furthermore, if a FA spends time on the ramp or on Reservations, then how soon will this skills fade, and re training be needed.
Like I said before it makes sense to cross train certain groups not all of them.
sunking737 From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 1930 posts, RR: 9 Reply 34, posted (2 months 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 4153 times:
I have heard from a very reliable source (private no link) that Xtra Airways was indeed sold to Peoplexpress. No other information is available to me at this time. Let the speculation begin.
Link to fleet information can be found at,..http://www.planespotters.net
dabpit From United States of America, joined May 2012, 80 posts, RR: 0 Reply 35, posted (2 months 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 3892 times:
Quoting sunking737 (Reply 34): I have heard from a very reliable source (private no link) that Xtra Airways was indeed sold to Peoplexpress. No other information is available to me at this time. Let the speculation begin.
Link to fleet information can be found at,..http://www.planespotters.net
DTWPurserBoy From United States of America, joined Feb 2010, 537 posts, RR: 2 Reply 37, posted (1 month 3 weeks 23 hours ago) and read 3249 times:
Over two weeks ago PeoplExpress touted that they would announce which airline they had purchased on Monday in order to give employees of the "sold" carrier notice. Since then--nothing.
DTWPurserBoy From United States of America, joined Feb 2010, 537 posts, RR: 2 Reply 39, posted (1 month 2 weeks 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 2416 times:
That is odd because the local paper have been following this story closely and nothing "official" has appeared.
"Reliable sources" and rumors do not seem concrete to me.
If there is a better source would someone be so kind as to post a link? Thanks.
ouboy79 From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 4001 posts, RR: 23 Reply 40, posted (1 month 2 weeks 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 2270 times:
Quoting B727FA (Reply 38):
Yes. There has been notice that it is Xtra and has been reported on here several times.
Quoting DTWPurserBoy (Reply 39): If there is a better source would someone be so kind as to post a link? Thanks.
Yeah I'm with DTWPurser. I haven't see any link to anything official on here. Just all speculation by A.netters that it is Xtra based on the verbiage being used to describe their target carrier.
Any opinion/comment posted is that of my own and not that of Southwest Airlines Co.
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