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LH Buys 100 A320, 2 A380, 6 77W Part 1  
User currently offlineFlyingAY From Finland, joined Jun 2007, 701 posts, RR: 0
Posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 43436 times:

Lufthansa is ordering 102 Airbus planes including A380 and 6 Boeing 777-300 ER (for Swiss)!

70 A320 NEO
30 A320 OEO
6 B77W s
2 A380

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-0...anes-in-fuel-cost-cut-program.html

This was mentioned in another thread, but IMHO it merits its own thread.

241 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineBlueSky1976 From Poland, joined Jul 2004, 1876 posts, RR: 4
Reply 1, posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 43311 times:

No surprise for anyone who was following rumours about this order. Glad to see the Mighty Triple Seven joining Swiss.


STOP TERRORRUSSIA!!!
User currently offlinena From Germany, joined Dec 1999, 10707 posts, RR: 9
Reply 2, posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 42953 times:

NEOs no surprise at all, the shorthaul fleet will remain rather boring. But I´m happy to hear that two more A380s are coming into LHs fleet. A bit sad about that rumours were true about the Swiss 77W. I had hoped LH would come around that plane though what can you do when there´s no other way currently when they need something of that size. To me the 77W is like McDonalds, bland, and to be found everywhere.

User currently offlinevfw614 From Germany, joined Dec 2001, 3997 posts, RR: 5
Reply 3, posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 42883 times:

Looks a bit like a consolation prize for Boeing to keep pricing for future RFPs competitive (note: lighthearted remark)

User currently offlineCXB77L From Australia, joined Feb 2009, 2609 posts, RR: 5
Reply 4, posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 42803 times:
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Quoting BlueSky1976 (Reply 1):
Glad to see the Mighty Triple Seven joining Swiss.

Yes, a pleasant surprise to see LH select the 777-300ER for LX. This is fantastic news, and I must admit I didn't expect that to happen at all.

Congrats to Boeing, LH and LX for securing this order. It'd be great to see a 777-300ER in LX livery.



Boeing 777 fanboy
User currently offlineLH422 From Germany, joined Sep 2010, 402 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 42784 times:

The article mentions A320neo and A321neo. I wonder if we'll be seeing A321ceo with sharklets? As of now, the two remaining planned A321ceo deliveries are planned without sharklets.

User currently offlineCARST From Germany, joined Jul 2006, 820 posts, RR: 2
Reply 6, posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 42757 times:

Quoting BlueSky1976 (Reply 1):
Glad to see the Mighty Triple Seven joining Swiss.

Good to see it at LH Group at all. A sign for me that the 77Es of OS are not on the way out and that the 777-8 and -9 could be part of LHs fleet plan for the entire group.


User currently offlineSQ22 From Germany, joined Feb 2012, 98 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 42670 times:

Quoting BlueSky1976 (Reply 1):
No surprise for anyone who was following rumours about this order. Glad to see the Mighty Triple Seven joining Swiss.


Well, some expected part of the order woul have been for the MAX as well. There were also discussions about the C-Series. I think we will see an additional order for the C-Series later, maybe soon after first flight.


User currently offlineKarelXWB From Netherlands, joined Jul 2012, 11367 posts, RR: 33
Reply 8, posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 42659 times:

Quoting LH422 (Reply 5):
I wonder if we'll be seeing A321ceo with sharklets?

That's possible, a few days ago Airbus said to deliver all A320 aircraft in 2014 with sharklets.



Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity. And I'm not sure about the universe.
User currently offlineDALCE From Netherlands, joined Feb 2007, 1682 posts, RR: 7
Reply 9, posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 42626 times:

Is it clear where all those 320's & NEO's will be placed?
Are they all for LH, or can we expect them to be split up amongst OS,LX,SN and LH?



flown on : F50,F70,CR1,CR2,CR9,E75,143,AR8,AR1,733,735,736,73G,738,753,744,319,320,321,333,AB6.
User currently offlineEPA001 From Netherlands, joined Sep 2006, 4723 posts, RR: 39
Reply 10, posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 42581 times:
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Quoting na (Reply 2):
NEOs no surprise at all, the shorthaul fleet will remain rather boring. But I´m happy to hear that two more A380s are coming into LHs fleet.

Me too! More 4-holers is always good. And more A380's is also very good.  .

Quoting na (Reply 2):
A bit sad about that rumours were true about the Swiss 77W.

Not really. It is phenominal airplane and currently has no competition. It is a logical choice for LX.

Quoting CARST (Reply 6):
A sign for me that the 77Es of OS are not on the way out and that the 777-8 and -9 could be part of LHs fleet plan for the entire group.

They could be. But with the B748i's they still have coming to the fleet, the B777-9X could be far away since LH flies their planes for a long time. And keep them in pristine condition.

For the long range order in the autumn I am expecting mostly A350's to be ordered.  .


User currently offlineSQ22 From Germany, joined Feb 2012, 98 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 42440 times:

Quoting EPA001 (Reply 10):

Not really. It is phenominal airplane and currently has no competition. It is a logical choice for LX.

Hopefully they will follow the SQ route and not go the EK way with 10-abreast.

Beside this I was a bit surprised about the CEO order, I expected NEO only. Any thoughts?


User currently offlineB777LRF From Luxembourg, joined Nov 2008, 1334 posts, RR: 3
Reply 12, posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 42443 times:

Looks like I'll be eating crow for a while. Was certain LH Group wouldn't be ordering the 77W, but then again they already have - in the shape of the 77F.

This order puts Boeing in a more comfortable position when it comes to pitching the 777X against the A350 at LH Group.



From receips and radials over straight pipes to big fans - been there, done that, got the hearing defects to prove
User currently offlineCARST From Germany, joined Jul 2006, 820 posts, RR: 2
Reply 13, posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 42449 times:

Quoting EPA001 (Reply 10):
They could be. But with the B748i's they still have coming to the fleet, the B777-9X could be far away since LH flies their planes for a long time. And keep them in pristine condition.

I see 777-9s at LX, OS and SN. And the 777-8 at LH to replace the A340s. 787-10s to replace the A333 fleet. Just one of many possibilities.


User currently offlinesturmovik From India, joined May 2007, 509 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 42407 times:

77W at LX.. it must be a cold day in hell 


'What's it doing now?'
User currently offlinena From Germany, joined Dec 1999, 10707 posts, RR: 9
Reply 15, posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 42328 times:

Quoting CARST (Reply 6):
Good to see it at LH Group at all. A sign for me that the 77Es of OS are not on the way out and that the 777-8 and -9 could be part of LHs fleet plan for the entire group.

Perhaps the 777-8 to replace the A346 in the mid-2020s, but the -9 isnt needed, to small the distance to the 748I which will be here well into the 2030s, and too big the distance for whatever replaces the A333/343s.
I anyway think the chance for the A350-1000 is greater, as LH doesnt need the xtras the 777-9 could perhaps offer, and its unineviatbly higher price tag, while gladly paying the lower fuel bills the Airbus will ask for.

Quoting EPA001 (Reply 10):
Not really. It is phenominal airplane and currently has no competition. It is a logical choice for LX.

I second the last two points, the first only when closing my eyes . I only hope the 77Ws are leased, so can be handed back in 10 years to be replaced by one of the two types then available. Otherwise in the early 2020s Swiss will be left with old metal.


User currently offlinerobffm2 From Germany, joined Dec 2006, 1117 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 42225 times:

Don't want to spoil the party, but nothing is mentioned of an order in their press release as of today:
http://www.lufthansagroup.com/en/pre...ve/2013/march/14/article/2388.html


User currently offlineCXB77L From Australia, joined Feb 2009, 2609 posts, RR: 5
Reply 17, posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 42188 times:
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Quoting na (Reply 15):
but the -9 isnt needed, to small the distance to the 748I which will be here well into the 2030s

No one ever said anything about the 777-9X going to LH. CARST's post clearly refers to LH fleet plan for the entire group. The 777-9X could find its way into the LX or OS fleets.

Quoting na (Reply 15):
Otherwise in the early 2020s Swiss will be left with old metal.

 

Hardly, these aircraft, if they are to be delivered by 2016, will only be four years young.



Boeing 777 fanboy
User currently offlineautothrust From Switzerland, joined Jun 2006, 1595 posts, RR: 9
Reply 18, posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 41204 times:

Quoting BlueSky1976 (Reply 1):
Glad to see the Mighty Triple Seven joining Swiss.

Completly disagree, it's a disaster for commonality with such a small number, and as passenger i don't welcome it.

I would rather prefer to fly a LX 747 anyday over a 777.



“Faliure is not an option.”
User currently offlinena From Germany, joined Dec 1999, 10707 posts, RR: 9
Reply 19, posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 40778 times:

Quoting autothrust (Reply 18):
I would rather prefer to fly a LX 747 anyday over a 777.

I am sure most LX passengers would agree, but it seems its just one step too big.

Quoting CXB77L (Reply 17):
No one ever said anything about the 777-9X going to LH. CARST's post clearly refers to LH fleet plan for the entire group. The 777-9X could find its way into the LX or OS fleets.

OS very unlikely. Much too big.

Quoting CXB77L (Reply 17):
Hardly, these aircraft, if they are to be delivered by 2016, will only be four years young.

I am not talking about age, I am talking about technology, that by the early 2020s there will be two successors with considerably better economics. By 2022 a 2016-built 77W will be like what a 744 is now.


User currently offlineCARST From Germany, joined Jul 2006, 820 posts, RR: 2
Reply 20, posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 40773 times:

Quoting CXB77L (Reply 17):
Hardly, these aircraft, if they are to be delivered by 2016, will only be four years young.

What he meant to say is that at this time the 77W will be one generation back behind the NextGen aircraft like 787, 777X and A350. While that is true, it is not important, the 77W will make LX loads of money even with NextGen aircraft coming online at other airlines.

If you would follow that logic the A330 shouldn't have got one order after the launch of the 787 (all problems aside). But it still got a lot of orders because of slot restraints and small, continual improvements making it a fine aircraft for a lot of missions where the range or lift of the 787 and/or 77W is not needed, despite it being an older generation aircraft compared to both.
1992 A333
1994 77A
(1999 A333X, not really a new model, no new wing, just increased MTOW)
2005 77W (new wing, new engines)
2009 788

Quoting autothrust (Reply 18):
Completly disagree, it's a disaster for commonality with such a small number

You can bet that the A343s will leave the fleet when the 77Ws come online. I don't expect both types to operate side-by-side for too long. I know they have more 343s than 77Ws ordered, but LH could top-up either A333 orders or 77W orders any time.


User currently offlineferpe From France, joined Nov 2010, 2803 posts, RR: 59
Reply 21, posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 40525 times:

Quoting autothrust (Reply 18):
I would rather prefer to fly a LX 747 anyday over a 777.

The little problem is a fuel burn difference per pax of 20%, do you want to pay more to fly 747?



Non French in France
User currently offlineKarelXWB From Netherlands, joined Jul 2012, 11367 posts, RR: 33
Reply 22, posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 40488 times:

Quoting CARST (Reply 13):
I see 777-9s at LX, OS and SN. And the 777-8 at LH to replace the A340s. 787-10s to replace the A333 fleet. Just one of many possibilities.

Lufthansa says the 787 is too small.

"The carrier is looking at the Airbus A350-900/1000, more Boeing 747-8s and the 777X, company sources say. The 787 is not under consideration as it is too small for Lufthansa’s requirements.".

http://www.aviationweek.com/Article....e-xml/awx_03_14_2013_p0-559023.xml



Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity. And I'm not sure about the universe.
User currently offlineBthebest From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2008, 506 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 40462 times:

Quoting SQ22 (Reply 11):
Beside this I was a bit surprised about the CEO order, I expected NEO only. Any thoughts?

Aircraft availability? Backlog for the neo is quite extensive whilst there are still some slots left for ceo - well, maybe not now.

I know LH are phasing out their 737s by 2016, so if they wanted replacements for them, ceo the only option really. That, or they want quicker expansion of one of the subsidiaries.


User currently offlinestarbucks From Netherlands, joined Feb 2013, 708 posts, RR: 6
Reply 24, posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 40409 times:

I think we can assume the 70 neo's will have the GTF hanging under it's wings??


A350 logbook: http://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/pub?key=0AlVgPnmHLOovdFdzbVlyQzhYNDhCb1VFN1RkYXkwV3c&output=html
25 LXLucien : I'm with you on that! But the small number tells another story too. For me it's just an interim solution till the A350 is ready, also maybe to get so
26 Post contains images starbucks : Just on Twitter
27 LY777 : When will the 77Ws be delivered to LX?
28 LXLucien : From 2016 onwards
29 Post contains links and images KarelXWB : Here is the Airbus press release: http://www.airbus.com/no_cache/newse...s-go-ahead-for-major-airbus-order/ And a LH A320neo rendering too:
30 Post contains links KarelXWB : Now confirmed by Airbus: "The Lufthansa’s Supervisory Board has approved the acquisition of 100 A320 Family aircraft (35 A320neo, 35 A321neo and 30
31 airbazar : Exactly. It wouldn't shock me if they're leased too, rather than bought. 6 77W's that are about to become obsolete soon, mixed in a fleet with A340's
32 anfromme : Interesting - I didn't expect the 77W at all, despite the rumours. Interesting also that the A319NEO isn't part of the order. LH-operated CSeries seem
33 LHCVG : So what is LH itself going to do with the 350-seat range after the 346s? Does the LX order for 77Ws have any bearing on that, or is LH going to fly th
34 flyglobal : When will we see the Boeing Rendering for the Swiis 777-300ER ? Flyglobal
35 JU068 : But is the B777 fleet commonality such a big problem? For Swiss it might be but for Lufthansa Group it shouldn't be as Austrian currently operates 4,
36 Post contains images OryCdg : Will be surprising to see those 77W with the red-white colors. Will they be in 3-3-3 or 3-4-3 configuration ? Switzerland being a premium market, and
37 anfromme : As per the Airbus press release, the engine choice will be announced at a later date - although yes, the last batch of NEOs that LH ordered is going
38 Post contains images CXB77L : Passengers don't make aircraft purchasing decisions. The airline does. Strongly disagree. A 6 year old 777-300ER in 2022 is still going to be a damn
39 ZEDZAG : I dont get the picture here, where is the sense in puting 748 and 777x side by side, and because of that I dont see 777x in LH colors, OS doesnt need
40 seahawk : I would guess that LH got a very good price for the 777, considierng the problems with the 747-8 and how this was handled between Boeing and LH. I hop
41 autothrust : They could use A340-600 instead (as does LH)which are much more comfortable then the 777 and the fuel burn difference wouldn't be that big. Also i wo
42 Post contains links SQ22 : Boeing press release: http://boeing.mediaroom.com/index.php?s=43&item=2621
43 vegas005 : Swiss stated they did not want the A340-600, so we all knew something was coming. I'm just surprised they wait until 2016 to start up the 777. Almost
44 LHCVG : Just to play Devil's Advocate, maybe not if the financial terms were right and they could get "gen 1.5" 35J's in the mid- to late-2020's, depending o
45 AA777 : Sounds like a case of sour grapes if you ask me. It will be a great plane for them, as it has proven to be for every single other airline that has it
46 skipness1E : Most passengers don't actually care, that's the commercial reality. They are concerned about the hard product in the aircraft, the service and the lo
47 Richard28 : Interesting that they have added further to the A380 fleet but not to the 747-8 fleet. The 747-8 had a frame cancelled in december, so having operated
48 TheAviator380 : To me the 77W is like McDonalds, bland, and to be found everywhere. ____________________ Seriously? 77W is one of the efficient aircrafts out there. I
49 Stitch : Which is interesting, since the 787-9 is the same size as than their A330-300s / A340-300s and the 787-10 is sized between the A350-900 and A350-1000
50 Post contains images lightsaber : First, congrats to LH. Maybe... but this order limits the potential scope to ~30. That is a good point everyone should remember. (e.g, 752 fans, a gre
51 Post contains images BlueShamu330s : It seems quite a leap in capacity to go from A340 to B77W, especially (and take note Swiss, after your comfortable 2x4x2 A340s, it would be a signific
52 Stitch : They evidently need the capacity, but I would expect them to stay with 9-abreast in Economy as that would allow a large boost in Economy seating. LH
53 gilesdavies : I haven't been following the rumour mill with regards to LH's order today, but the 77W part of the order has come as surprise to me... I think the rea
54 Post contains images DALCE : And now the most important question of all : Will the 77W's be designated as 777-357ER's (old SR customer code with Boeing) *sarcasm off*
55 Post contains images EPA001 : If so, they will most likely not order the B777-9. Which is more or less the same size. And would be quite a lot more efficient. So I am not so sure
56 ETinCaribe : There was a thread not too long ago on OS 767/777 refurbishment, that may also signal no new addition to the fleet for many years to come. Define soo
57 vegas005 : Austrian runs the 777-200 10 abreast. If Swiss does that you will see a lot of upset clients, particularly with the price premium Swiss gets!
58 Stitch : The A340-600 and 777-300ER have similar cabin floor areas, so whichever way LX went, they should have seen a similar increase in seats. I am sure LX
59 Post contains images r2rho : A very cold day in hell indeed! These aircraft are due from 2016 onwards and I'm sure LH could get decent A350 delivery slots not much later than that
60 scouseflyer : There was a link a while back that suggested that these A380s were 'from within the existing' backlog - a wonder if this means a cancellation or a def
61 AngMoh : The 77W order for LX shows that the 346 still does the job for LH. If it did not do the job for LH, they would be better off to transfer some 346's t
62 anfromme : Will be very white, chiefly. I though that was part of the exercise - replacing some of the A340s while also adding capacity for some routes (primari
63 YTZ : No CSeries. Sadly, my prediction came through.
64 Stitch : With LH moving to a more premium-heavy configuration, the extra floor-space of the 747-8 could have an impact. Losing the upper deck of the 747-8 red
65 YULWinterSkies : Well, assuming the A350 delivery does not run late, that the A350 once in service does not run into problems. If in doubt about my statements, we do
66 Post contains images SASMD82 : Nice order again for LH/LX! When will KL/AF follow with a nice narrow body fleet order? Honestly, I really really don't understand why they ordered 77
67 airbazar : From what i understand they've been starving for capacity on some routes already. The only surprise here is that they're not getting them for 3 years
68 PHX787 : Rookie question- Since LH bought the 777 for LX would the 777 be labeled as a 777-330ER in writing?
69 Post contains links and images KL838 : Swiss posted this on their Facebook page, below is a link to the video and a screenshot as well! Looks stunning! Link to video
70 skipness1E : Or would Swiss inherit Swissair and use B777-357ER? Hmmmm
71 TheAviator380 : Quoting TheAviator380 (Reply 49): EK have utilized cabin space very nicely, 10 abreast or 11 honestly doesn't make much difference. You must have mean
72 Ferroviarius : Indeed, indeed, indeed! To my mind a loud and nasty shadderbox. Just as the 141R locos were, as compared to the 141P... Huffja.... Ferroviarius
73 PanHAM : Swissair does not exist as a carrier anymore, either Boeing creates a new customer code for Swiss or uses Lufthansas "30".
74 francoflier : I'd nuance a bit. It's an almost entirely white aircraft on an almost entirely white background. You'd barely see it if it wasn't for the two bits of
75 Ferroviarius : To my mind: It is loud, fat, short and 3-3-3. Is there at least any chance they would go for 2-5-2? Best, Ferroviarius
76 avek00 : The 77W is the only game in town for a plane in its size class. While the 77Ws are expensive -- and generally not going to be taken up from this point
77 Post contains images mcg : They are aluminum tubes
78 UALWN : I believe that the connectivity of the AVOD system favors (requires?) 3-3-3. But, yes, since I mostly fly by myself, I very much prefer a window seat
79 davs5032 : But with no A319 ordered, the door remains open. Wasn't there something on the pre-order LH thread saying they were planning on ordering 30 more Cser
80 autothrust : No it isn't. I just worry and notice the comfort and service of LX going down the hill. The 777 is a fine plane, but not as passenger point of view.
81 anfromme : Well, partly for the reasons you outlined, the A340 is not just "no longer seriously offered", but officially out of production - has been since Nove
82 Stitch : Lufthansa Flight Training does have a 777-200LR flight simulator, however, so that can be used to train LX crews on the 777-300ER.
83 YTZ : I would think that LX would lease aircraft to provide immediate lift and enable them to buy a more efficient replacement down the road. Buying (as opp
84 TheAviator380 : Quoting TheAviator380 (Reply 48): Seriously? 77W is one of the efficient aircrafts out there. It's wonderful performance and good comfort makes it ver
85 Stitch : There may not have been sufficient (or any) available frames or those that were available might not have been available for the timeframe LX is looki
86 Ferroviarius : Btw, while my personal impression is that GE90ed 777s are even louder than TRENT895ed, "feeling vibrations and hearing noise" is, of course, highly su
87 TheAviator380 : I couldn't make the different to be honest. Both engines look stunning on 77W tho..huge.
88 Stitch : GE90, Trent 895 and PW4090 all sound impressively loud to me.
89 TheAviator380 : Right now the most calm and noiseless craft is A380. Again I have traveled on it and certainly I felt much more peaceful even in Y in 380 cabin than
90 Stitch : Yes, I find the A380 to be the quietest commercial airliner in service, though I like that LH added additional noise insulation to the nose of the 74
91 Post contains images TheAviator380 : Interesting, didn't know that. Unfortunately I don't think I will get ride on 747-8 i in near future, as I don't fly on that route which they have at
92 RomeoBravo : Wow, impressive order for the 77W, i guess the -200LRF order helped grease that one.
93 bueb0g : The fuel burn difference is pretty massive. The difference in efficiency between the A346 and the 77W (per pax per mile) is well into the double digi
94 wingman : Boeing must be thrilled to confirm the supplier duopoly at LH! 27 planes ordered out of 300 in 20 years means they're almost at 10%!! And now that LH
95 Post contains images 817Dreamliiner : Well, it looks like the fear of LX getting 77W's turned out to be true.... Im reading all the negatives from the 77W haters and im doing this to every
96 autothrust : Laugh as much as you want this would never happened if LH would't be in control of LX. Instead they would rather have bought a 787 and A350 which off
97 BlueShamu330s : Fortunately, most people are a little more mature and have offered up their opinions, usually with the caveat that the B77W is an admirable machine;
98 skipness1E : How is the B77W a step back from a second hand A343? I think peep are really, really overstating the generational issue. BA, Emirates and QR are still
99 Stitch : I've long argued that a 77W order would never happen because LH was in control of LX, so I must admit that I'm somewhat shocked they actually allowed
100 UALWN : Why? A standalone LX would have trouble justifying the addition of an oddball sub-fleet of 6 77Ws. However, the LH group has a bunch of 777Fs, a hand
101 Post contains images 817Dreamliiner : Well Sorry If I found it funny... Especially since most claimed it would never happen...
102 Stitch : Because I believe LH and the LH Group would prefer to be an all-Airbus operator and select another OEM only when Airbus does not offer a viable alter
103 UALWN : Why would LH do that? It wouldn't seem very smart. Plus, they currently operate 737 classics, 744s, 748s, MD-11Fs, 777Fs, 767s and 772s (at OS), and
104 glideslope : Obviously never been on an LH 748-i.
105 ZRH : That's wrong. LH always said that they don't want to depend on only one manufacturer.
106 kanban : We often joke about reporters not knowing what they write about,, there is a note in a Wall street cheat sheet that says LH ordered 100 planes from Ai
107 wingman : I think his point, which I agree with and which is supported by the facts, is that LH seems to only order a non-Airbus product when there is no clear
108 pnwtraveler : I agree with your response to the above quote and others' comments that the B777 is boring. Well what I would say it is a good thing that some Anette
109 Ferroviarius : Well, 817Dreamliiner, at least in my case I do not "hate any machine". What "hate" actually is might be quite difficult to define. I do not think it
110 Post contains links n93109 : All, Are we talking about the entire flight b/c I question if the A380 is that quiet ahead of the engines on board ahead of the engines. From my exper
111 Post contains images Stitch : Yes they have, but their purchasing history during that time shows a preference for Airbus when Airbus offers a comparable / competitive product, as
112 anfromme : Didn't you just undermine your own argument by giving an example that clearly contradicts your hypothesis? Also, for the sake of accuracy, your numbe
113 douglasyxz : When guessing about present and future orders for a/c one should not forget LH is running its Score program with a rather high goal in terms of cost d
114 LXLucien : How much would LX have to charge off if they would sell the 77W in 2022 when they are 6 yrs old? 20-30%?
115 Post contains images Hamlet69 : I'm quite surprised that, after 112 posts on this subject, no one has correlated this supposed 'contradiction' (14 A343's vs. only 6 77W's) with ALC'
116 Post contains images douglasyxz : Sell or transfer to OS if those are in need for more or bigger a/c. That'll be the other way round as it had happend with OS' 340
117 Post contains images LXLucien : Thanks for bringing that up again, I've thought about it all day but couldn't find another answer than mine. But LH didn't placed any orders for the
118 LXA340 : These 6 older generation A343's from the 1990's need to go and it looks like the A346 was for some reason no short term solution. Given the 9 other A3
119 warden145 : For the record, I am more than willing to, and actually have, paid 20% more to fly on a 747 vs a 777, 767, or A330. I know that I'm in the minority,
120 Stitch : Based on current Average Sales Prices and Values, a six-year old 777-200ER will depreciate about 25%.
121 ikramerica : Anyone who thought that was delusional. No major EU flag carrier is buying the MAX. Almost all came to the same "independent conclusion" many years a
122 SQ22 : Well, but maybe LH just needed the A346 for themselves and LX don't wanted used ones from 3rd parties... Who knows.
123 ikramerica : The only way LX would get A346s was from LH. Now, true, maybe LH wanted them for themselves, but my guess is LH is looking to replace them closer to
124 bavair : I hope I didn't miss anything in this thread, but haven't seen it so far so here we go: What is going to happen with Swiss' business Class? It's built
125 flightsimer : Again, where has LH ever said they have no interest in the 787? As far as I have ever seen, they have said the 787-8 is too small for LH to operate.
126 Post contains images autothrust : Reread what i did write please, it's a step backwards compared to a 787 or A350! Undoubtly the 777 is more efficient then a A343. That sums it up per
127 Post contains images anfromme : That same conspiracy theory again - which holds as much water as reversing it against US carriers. There is as much political pressure on LH or BA to
128 pnwtraveler : I love the roar on takeoff personally. However noise over a long period of time does cause more fatigue. There is a small element of that in what peop
129 a380900 : Why is LH adding a380 by increments of two? I guess it´s because of the 20 747-8. They are fine tuning their A380s needs but cannot go bigger than tw
130 GVAJFKflyer : Why not go 2-4-3 ?
131 ferpe : I think one shall see the LH group purchase of 777 in a somewhat different light. Lufthansa has a large decision coming up on the long term replacemen
132 SandroZRH : I dont understand the whole 10-abreast vs. premium carrier debate. Economy class nowadays has got absolutely nothing to do with premium. The reality i
133 LH707330 : The 747-8i has lower trip costs but higher seat costs (~+3%) vs the 380 and has similar amounts of premium seats to the 380 in LH outfit. When you ha
134 Post contains links douglasyxz : I don't see LX operating 340 and 777 together for too long - instead I think in 2-4 years LX will start replacing the remaining 340. It is true that t
135 SASMD82 : Because now they went for the 77W as well, they might have the most exotic long range fleet available: A380 748 77W 77F 346 343 333 77E 763 I totally
136 ka : They will go for 10-abreast. Correct. Ka.
137 seahawk : Probably. We have not heard a thing about LH getting compensated for the delays of the 747-8, the 747-8 being too heavy or the not useable fuel tank
138 CARST : Last year LHs' CEO or fleet planner said they want to reduce the number of aircraft types within LH Group to 3-4 types (IIRC). I think we can assume
139 na : So they install the Avoidable class instead of Economy Class? Sad, and I wish them a disappointment with that! 10-abreast in a 777, awful. I havent h
140 CARST : Look at it this way: The very large majority of the people flying economy class are not a.netters or frequent flyers. The people building this majori
141 ZEDZAG : Once again I ask where is the sence in operating 777x side by side with 748?? 777x is too big for SN and OS so 787 is needed here, much more then 777
142 CARST : The -8X is in the 77W/A346 size class and makes sense beside the 748 at an airline as large as LH. The -9X could be introduced for lower yielding mar
143 RomeoBravo : Does LX really need a plane the size of the 77W? I was of the understanding the Swiss traffic was relatively thin but high yielding. Correct me if i'm
144 spkyflyer : this easily could be a political play to 'ease' in a larger and later boeing purchase for wide bodies...
145 na : Apparently, otherwise they woudnt have ordered such an oddball plane. Should the 777-9X be considered as a replacement for the 748I so that someone l
146 EPA001 : Interesting. Personally I guess the A350 (maybe in multiple versions) has better chances to appear in this short list you made. But time will tell.
147 Post contains links LXLucien : Yes absolutely! Some routes have a really high load, especially cargo. Now the 77W has a cargo space of 216m^3 and the 343 162m^3. For this reason th
148 SQ22 : I have an off-topic question, but maybe here's an insider being able to give an adequate answer: So far no LH aircraft with the old C-product got the
149 panamair : LX mentioned in their press release that the 77W will most likely be used on routes to LAX, SFO, JNB, HKG, BKK, SIN, PVG, PEK, and GRU ".....The new
150 Post contains images FlyingAY : We have LH ordering 108 planes and we have 150 messages discussing the 5.6% of the order. Naturally the NEOs were expected after the initial order, th
151 airbazar : Given that those are the only 2 LH hubs, it leaves exactly how many flights to be operated by 4U? Not many. Good point. LX does have the advantage of
152 ZRH : SWISS flies all these destinations daily. 6 frames are not enough for that.
153 PanHAM : A320s are boring we have BER, HAM DUS CGN HAJ NUE STR who get A319 upwards not only for domstic flights but also many European direct services. That'
154 Ferroviarius : That's a good idea, GVAJFKflyer, and Finnair had this configuration on those MD11s, which I had flown on as a passenger. Not a bad idea, but I do not
155 Sassiciai : I also shop around to have flights on aircraft I prefer (or to avoid those I dont like), and will pay more to do that! I try to avoid the B777, becau
156 Stitch : Because LH have wanted a larger 747 since at least 2001 to slot between the A340-600 and the A380-800. Yes, I am sure LH received a nice price due to
157 Post contains images anfromme : They still had two A380 options left from their original order, so I assume this is a conversion of these two options before they expired. 19 747-8i
158 PlanesNTrains : I'm quite certain they did. I guess I don't follow? Why would Boeing care if airlines are parking 77W's by the hundreds 10 years from now? That's jus
159 Stitch : All of LH's current 747-8's are overweight. They chose to not take it up because Boeing had been using it for testing so the airframe would have been
160 EK413 : Wonderful news... Congratulations LH & Airbus / Boeing! I've asked the question in the TK Airbus order discussion so thought I'll ask... I'm curi
161 Stitch : You order the "old" plane because you have a need for capacity in the near-term. You order the "new" plane because of long-term capacity needs and re
162 airbazar : I also wonder what the cost/benefit analysis looks like for the pricier NEO to use on 60 minute segments. Could we see airlines scheduling the OEO on
163 Post contains images anfromme : Ah - I knew there was something else Thanks for the clarification!
164 Stitch : All these operators will have a mix of both models in their fleets for some time, so it does sound reasonable and logical to me that they would assig
165 ZRH : Swissair and SWISS had it on their MD 11.
166 Sassiciai : " more A380? Rather conservative - not on the usual Emirates top-up scale for the A380 at all! Welcome a new LF order for 2 more A380! Is this for a n
167 Post contains images KarelXWB : Another view:
168 Viscount724 : Many MD-11s had 3-4-2 (or 2-4-3) seating. Swissair and KLM definitely did originally. (KLM's 3-seat unit was on the right side while on Swissair it w
169 dfambro : ANA flies 77Ws with a 2-4-3 configuration
170 sweair : 789+777ER would be a nice combo for Swiss?
171 columba : Either that or 787-10 and 777W. I believe in the longterm Swiss will be Boeing Widebodies and Airbus and Bombardier narrowbodies. I don´t know if th
172 Post contains links douglasyxz : The NB order is meant for the entire group: http://www.lufthansagroup.com/en/pre...2013/february/19/article/2350.html 4U is due to operate up to 90 p
173 sweair : I think LH ruled out the 788 as too small, but not the 789 or 7810, the 789 is a perfect A343 replacement. The 7810 is more of a A333 replacement. Wi
174 Post contains images EPA001 : As would be the A359. . That could very well be the direction in which LH is heading. The upcoming wide-body order later this year will tell us more.
175 Post contains links Paolo92 : Yes, 90 aircraft total, including the 23 CR9 from Eurowings, which will still be "operated by Eurowings, for Germanwings" (kind of weird, since Germa
176 Post contains links bueb0g : I'd rather refer to the studies done by professional analysts (such as http://www.aircraft-commerce.com/sam...cles/flight_operations_sample.pdf) whic
177 columba : In a recent article a company source is being quoted that for the widebody order this fall only the A350, 777X and 747-8I are being evaluated. The 78
178 JU068 : Even if the CRJ 900 aircraft will be operated by Eurowings, will they keep their current livery or will they be repainted as well?
179 Post contains links and images Semaex : Heavy Typo 4U operates 34 A319s, 5 on order. Their fleet will increase to roughly 90 aircraft by mid-2013, excluding the CRJs operated by EW. As you
180 Semaex : According to german aviation paper AERO Intl they will stay in EW livery for cost reasons. Whether they will be painted with upcoming checks, who kno
181 JU068 : Thanks. According to Wikipedia they have a total of six bases: Cologne, Berlin, Dortmund, Hanover, Stuttgart and Hamburg. Will all these airports see
182 AngMoh : The report states that it is 17-21% "per trip" but the also that A346 carries more payload. They also state that you can not make a blanket compariso
183 Semaex : I had a look at Wiki now too, but I cannot find the information you are quoting. According to their website EW CRJs are based in DUS and HAM and I hi
184 KarelXWB : Nothing strange here, LH is just firming up their options (5). They first ordered 15 units in 2001, than 2 in 2010 and now 2 more again. And they sti
185 JU068 : I was just asking which of these bases will receive the CRJ. I didn't mean they would all be getting them.
186 Post contains images LXA340 : Maybe this is an interim solution and as soon as the remaining A340 needs to be replaced around 2020 LX will go for an all A350 fleet and transfer th
187 Post contains images CXB77L : How is this acquisition going to have any impact on the service of LX? The two are not interrelated. This is only your opinion. Please do not speak f
188 Stitch : I did hypothesize that LH might prefer to just have their entire widebody fleet with a range at or beyond 8000nm since it gives them the flexibility
189 AngMoh : That is the whole point: CX were relatively short term leases. EK cancelled them before delivery. QR has no business case because the resale is too l
190 Post contains links YTZ : What's the point? I'd say 5500nm of max payload-range ESAD is more than sufficient (assuming it yields 5000nm real-world). This is why I find it surp
191 Stitch : EK, QR, EY, QF and SQ all seem to be following that track with future fleets composed of 787s, A350s and/or A380s.
192 Post contains links YTZ : http://www.gcmap.com/mapui?R=5000nm%40fra
193 Post contains links Stitch : Maybe they want to reach all of South America, all of Asia and much of Australia? http://www.gcmap.com/mapui?R=8000nm%40fra Honestly, I thought the 78
194 YTZ : But tailoring all your fleet requirements just for some markets? Isn't it much more effective to get a dedicated fleet? Except that the A350 still wo
195 Post contains images Semaex : The subfleet is too small to divide onto more than two bases efficiently. It would be quite a happening to relocate the pilot and FA pool to other ba
196 Post contains images autothrust : I never said the 77W isn't more efficient, per design TWO engines will always be more efficient then FOUR Engines. So it is not that of a wonder why
197 Post contains images columba : I do hope so. Would love to see the 787-10 in Lufthansa colors Availability No, the CEO of Swiss clearly said the 777 will stay in the fleet for at l
198 sweair : Can Swiss fill a 77W? Going 9 across would be a waste of OEW, that same trip could be done in a 789.. Although a half filled 77W would take off like a
199 JU068 : Thanks for the clarification. I wonder if Germanwings will be around to cater for the needs of the O&D market or will they organize themselves so
200 douglasyxz : 777 because of short term availability compared to 789, more freight w/o range limitation and LX is premium-heavy. The entire WB fleet of LX features
201 AntonovA330 : While I hope you are right, what makes you so confident they won't go for 3-4-3? SIA shows 278 seats on its 77W, LX' press release mentioned some 330
202 sweair : 3-3-3 in a 777 is very comfortable, but will it pay the bills? Sure if you fill the belly with cargo that might be another thing. Until we get the HTR
203 ZRH : Yes. They say since a long time that they need a bigger aircraft than a 343 on certain routes. Because they fly with three classes they can not put t
204 Viscount724 : If the Reply below is correct, 330 seats would almost certainly be 3-3-3 in Y. AC has 349 seats on their 77Ws with 42J and 307Y (3-3-3) but AC doesn'
205 ZRH : I hope it is correct. I read it somewhere but unfortunately I don't know where.
206 ka : LX will have 3-4-3. Ka.
207 Post contains links ZRH : I read it in the Neue Zürcher Zeitung. Usually a reliable source: http://www.nzz.ch/aktuell/wirtschaft...g-langstreckenflugzeuge-1.18046663 "Die Boe
208 na : A first then. Swiss will offer a truly inferior product to its Economy passengers.
209 Unflug : Do you have any source?
210 ZRH : If SWISS really flies a 10 abreast 777, I will never fly it. I find a 9 abreast already terribly cramped.
211 Post contains images na : Amen to that. They should rename Economy Class into Avoidable Class then
212 CXB77L : Which airline were you flying on? Depending on the seats that the airlines chose to put in their aircraft, 9 across on a 777 can theoretically fit th
213 travelavnut : 9 abreast on a 777 is very roomy in my experience! As far as I know there are no airlines with 8 abreast economy on the triple 7. Also I was apprehen
214 ZRH : Sorry, but no economy class in our days is "rommy". They are all horrible and get worse and worse with more seats in a row. I remember in the 1970ies
215 UALWN : Amen to that. A couple of months ago I was in rapid succession on a 9-abreast SQ 77W (BCN-GRU) and then on a 10-abreast JJ 77W (GRU-SCL). Both planes
216 Semaex : It's 50/50. I flew 4U VIE-CGN-RLG a couple of months ago and the timing in CGN was perfect. I had the impression that CGN was run very efficiently fo
217 YTZ : They call that Premium Economy these days....
218 travelavnut : I was of course speaking in relative terms, thought that was pretty obvious...
219 Stitch : LH is planning to launch a Premium Economy Class product, are they not? So if LX is indeed going 3-4-3 in Economy on the 777-300ER, then I believe it
220 robffm2 : Even with 3-3-3 they could offer a 'more premium' 2-4-2. As done by BA and AF.
221 Stitch : True, but I don't believe LX would be able to seat 330 with four classes at 2+4+2 in Premium Economy and 3+3+3 in Economy.
222 DALCE : Then don't complain and pay for C-class. Don't forget every airline has to make money with their aircraft, and with the low rates of today's world yo
223 na : The question is not about 8-abreast in Eco. 9 is standard and thats ok. But now they cramp 10 into into that ultralong tube and because its possible
224 sf260 : The average joe cares about price, if he gets a smaller chair for a 10% lower price, he's a happy man. That is just how our capitalistic world works.
225 pnwtraveler : There is a strong rumour that Swiss is returning to YYZ when the 777's reach the fleet and free up other aircraft. I don't see it for a couple of reas
226 Burkhard : I'm sorry Swiss goes down in quality to this loud and ugly low end offer, really hopes for 748 instead.
227 LHPII : I dont understand that nonsense 9 abreast against 10 abreast on 77W, as usually airlines that go 10 abreast have better seat pitch against those that
228 Viscount724 : When was that announced? I can't recall seeing anything. Almost all DC-10 operators did then.
229 Post contains links Stitch : They first announced it in May 2012 - http://www.lufthansagroup.com/en/pre...2012/december/05/article/2279.html They then announced about two weeks a
230 columba : One thought regarding the upcoming widebody order. LX already has decided to replace the oldest of their A343s with the 777Ws a significant largar air
231 Post contains images robffm2 : Looking at the seat-maps of LX, AF, BA and JJ and if the number 330 seats is confirmed I'm afraid you are right.
232 PM : Get off an EK 777-300ER and get onto an EK A380 and tell me you don't notice the difference. And it's not just the seats. The aisles on the 10 abreas
233 DALCE : Point taken, no problem. If you read ZRH's post which I quoted, he/she clearly states that he/she finds 9 abreast already cramped. That is where I ha
234 Flying-Tiger : I doubt that one. IMO this is a stop-gap only, and not any prejudice in favour of a long-term decision. In principle the only WB left in this categor
235 Post contains images EPA001 : Totally agree with this. That is what I am expecting as well for LH. Their comment about the B787 being too small is the way I see it meant for the B
236 columba : Honestly I do not understand that people call the 77W a stop gap when the CEO of Swiss is saying that they plan to fly the 77W for 20-25 years. Also i
237 CXB77L : What do you mean, not elsewhere? Perhaps you're unaware that some airlines are reviewing the possibility of putting that configuration in an A350. Or
238 Stitch : The A340-600 is an integral part of LH's long-haul fleet and they could have secured additional third-party frames for LX prior to 2016. They also co
239 YTZ : Except, why fly the 789 when you can just operate the 358 and have crew compatibility across the fleet. The 787 may just be too small for LH. Perhaps
240 Post contains images Stitch : The 787-9 carries more people and significantly more cargo (by volume) so you should be able to earn more than enough money to pay for two more pilot
241 Post contains links wilco737 : Part 2 now available. Please continue here: LH Buys 100 A320, 2 A380, 6 77W Part 2 (by wilco737 Mar 19 2013 in Civil Aviation) Thanks.
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