ManuCH From Switzerland, joined Jun 2005, 2971 posts, RR: 51 Posted (2 months 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 33807 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW HEAD MODERATOR
According to a previously unreleased report by French news magazine Le Point, the Captain of flight AF 447 that plunged into the Atlantic while enroute between GIG and CDG, had only had 1 hour of sleep on the night before the flight.
Quote:
A new report reveals that Marc Debois, captain of the doomed AF447, wasn’t functioning at his finest during his June 2009 flight from Rio de Janiero in Brazil to Paris, France. According to a previously undisclosed report obtained by the French news magazine Le Point, the 58-year-old Dubois can be heard on a black box recording saying, “I didn’t sleep enough last night. One hour--it’s not enough.”
(...)
Dubois began complaining about being tired shortly after take off. His co-pilots, 32-year-old Pierre-Cedric Bonin and 37-year-old David Robert, weren’t doing much better. According to the report, they were also feeling groggy after spending the night in Rio with their wives and girlfriends.
This is an alarming twist of facts. While it's known that pilots sometimes have a hard time sleeping because of jet lag, spending the night in a city (essentially, partying) is certainly not an acceptable reason to be tired.
Some also ask for the full CVR recordings to be released:
Quote:
More puzzlement as to how an Air France A330-200 could have been belly flopped into the mid-Atlantic in 2009 should add pressure on the French air safety investigator, the BEA, to release the full recording of the conversations in the cockpit of the doomed jet.
What was said in cockpit, and what it reveals about the relationship between the three pilots present during the fatal plunge that killed all 228 people on board the flight between Rio and Paris is an increasingly obvious missing element in resolving the mystery.
Of course pilots are trained to be fit to fly. But if it's true that sleeping is taken so lightly by some crew, I wonder what could be done to increase safety. Pilots are only humans after all, but still highly trained professionals, so one would expect them to behave accordingly.
airbuster From Netherlands, joined Mar 2007, 385 posts, RR: 1 Reply 1, posted (2 months 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 33735 times:
Have you done long haul flying for a couple of years week in week out? It messes you up. The article doesn't state that they had been partying. Moreso the flight departed at 7 pm. To me that means that the captains comment about 1 hour of sleep may refer to a pre departure afternoon nap instead of the previous night. In that case it's very normal to have 1 hour of sleep before an evening departure.
If they had been partying and were dead tired then yes that may have aggravated the whole situation. And bad on them.
I do however think that they were just tired like every long haul crew is and this is sensualistic information.
You say that pilots are trained to be fit to fly, really? It's more like pilots are TOLD to be fit to fly. The only thing that would give you fit pilots on every flight is to change airline schedules and give them more layover- and leave time, that is no reality in today's economy.
ManuCH From Switzerland, joined Jun 2005, 2971 posts, RR: 51 Reply 2, posted (2 months 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 33479 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW HEAD MODERATOR
Quoting airbuster (Reply 1): I do however think that they were just tired like every long haul crew is and this is sensualistic information.
I surely hopes it turns out to be just that.
Quoting airbuster (Reply 1): You say that pilots are trained to be fit to fly, really? It's more like pilots are TOLD to be fit to fly.
I stand corrected, I used the wrong word. But now I'm curious: what happens if a pilot calls the company and says he doesn't feel fit to fly, because of lack of sleep? Are there any consequences? This would surely mess up scheduling if an AF pilot does so while in GIG. Do pilots avoid admitting their lack of sleep to prevent a scheduling chaos and a huge delay? Where does one draw the line?
Independence76 From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 164 posts, RR: 0 Reply 3, posted (2 months 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 32970 times:
Would this have dramatically changed the ability to provide instruction towards the First Officer(s) in control? He was in the crew bunk for 9 minutes before he was called down urgently. One would think after only 1 hour of sleep that going back to bed in the night would put him to sleep rather quickly.
Being called down only a few minutes later means it was likely he was even more tired than before. Not what you want to have in a non-normal critical situation.
"In general, pride is at the bottom of all great mistakes." - John Ruskin
Pihero From France, joined Jan 2005, 3488 posts, RR: 72 Reply 4, posted (2 months 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 32718 times:
The above post is a surprising third level opinion on an already very subjective report by "experts" to the judicial system.
1/ - One has to know - and it deserves repeating - that for every accident, a judge is in charge of the investigation, of which the BEA report is just one piece.
2/- Judicial experts are then appointed by the judge to comment / complete / criticize the oficial BEA report. Among these experts are AF current or ex pilots.
3/- The possibility of fatigue is always considered in these reports, especially when the official BEA report remained silent on the subject.
4/- The departure was at 22.00 Z, which is 18.00 local.
5/- For AF crews, Rio is not exactly the safest place to go "partying" ; They've seen too many aggressions and muggings to really go out on the town at night.
So.
We have a subjective reporting of the experts on things like "lack of dynamism in the ETOPS preparation", and the taking as fact the captain's complaint that he didn't sleep more than an hour. That reporting is then further subjectively exploited be a weekly magazine, putting it together with the main pilot union pointing at crew fatigue on long haul duties, occulting the fact that these were in no respect related.
Then a NYC newspaper goes on by saying :"they were also feeling groggy after spending the night in Rio with their wives and girlfriends."
The report only mentions that a wife and a companion were in Rio with these pilots. The other part of the report mentions only as a possible factor :"4.3 Maximum fatigue in the low phase of the circadian cycle"
The 19.00 L departure means that the crew had to take some rest during daylight hours. The problem is that the rest quality during these hours is low.
And then you add your own comments on these "facts". Are you really so sure that these aircrews could be just a bunch of jolly party goers totally lacking professionalism ?
And do you have the witnesses who could testify on these nocturnal activities by this crew ? At least even the report,and the newspapers haven't.
Pihero From France, joined Jan 2005, 3488 posts, RR: 72 Reply 5, posted (2 months 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 32599 times:
Quoting ManuCH (Reply 2): what happens if a pilot calls the company and says he doesn't feel fit to fly, because of lack of sleep? Are there any consequences? This would surely mess up scheduling if an AF pilot does so while in GIG. Do pilots avoid admitting their lack of sleep to prevent a scheduling chaos and a huge delay? Where does one draw the line?
I can answer that very quickly : It happened to me in Guadeloupe. Too tired to fly. OPS was advised, the flight was delayed 7 hours, to allow another pilot present to have his minimum rest... I took over his scheduled flight some 24 hours later. Our regulations are that a pîlot is sole responsible for estimating his physical / mental capacity to operate as a crew member.
I was given 10 days of rest by the airline medical department, and had to do a check-up before I resumed my duties.
ltbewr From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 12326 posts, RR: 12 Reply 6, posted (2 months 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 32343 times:
It is possible that the pilots may not have gotten a good quality of sleep or nap within the previous 24 hours, the pilot commenting may have meant they only got 1 true hour of deep sleep. Still, I am quite sure other airline's flights in what is a higher risk region may have had similar sleep cycle issues but they didn't go down.
Pihero From France, joined Jan 2005, 3488 posts, RR: 72 Reply 7, posted (2 months 3 days ago) and read 32136 times:
Quoting ltbewr (Reply 6): I am quite sure other airline's flights in what is a higher risk region may have had similar sleep cycle issues but they didn't go down.
And your point is ?... Especially when the official report doesn't even acknowledge a possible fatigue as a factor of the accident ?
BenSandilands From Australia, joined Mar 2013, 59 posts, RR: 0 Reply 8, posted (2 months 3 days ago) and read 32032 times:
The fact that the final report by the BEA only selectively quotes from the CVR and has omitted a reference to fatigue implies that it is protecting the airline.
It also removes from the scope of the report a critical safety issue that Annex 13 ICAO requires crash reports to address, which is the safety lessons to be learned, which would include fatigue risk and management.
As the author of the blog quoted early in this thread can I make the point that unless we know everything there is to know from the CVR as to what happened between the men in the cockpit we cannot truly known what it is that happened to the machine.
This should not in my opinion be an issue as to sensationalist reporting or otherwise.
This is about the omission of vital information from a final report into a major crash, and omission will always, quite rightly, lead to suspicion.
The full tapes must be released. In the interests of safety.
Pihero From France, joined Jan 2005, 3488 posts, RR: 72 Reply 9, posted (2 months 3 days ago) and read 31549 times:
Problem is I do not for one second trust alleged objectivity from third parties.
The whole damn loty is just about someone saying that he didn't sleep for more than one hour ( how many times have you heard such exaggeration ? ) and some very dubious interpretations from some people who listened to the tape as to the "dynamism " of the crew - or lack thereof - during a briefing on ETOPS available airports.
There is nothing else and your conspiracy theories are just that : Theories.
Ah ! Sensationalism !
I stand with the BEA and all the other organisms which participated in this investigation. And our CVR recordings are not for the ghouls who would seek some sick pleasure in listening to the last words of dead people.
Go look somewhere else, I'd say to them.
There will be a court phase and experts from all sides will be discussing this aspect. They will make references to the tapes, but the transcript is not for public use.
We pilots will not allow it.
blueflyer From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 3119 posts, RR: 1 Reply 10, posted (2 months 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 30793 times:
Quoting airbuster (Reply 1): To me that means that the captains comment about 1 hour of sleep may refer to a pre departure afternoon nap instead of the previous night. In that case it's very normal to have 1 hour of sleep before an evening departure.
You are editorializing. As quoted by the OP and confirmed in the French article he links to, the captain states "last night I didn't sleep enough." Even at 7 pm, "last night" is the only correct translation, not earlier this afternoon or another variation, there is simply no wiggle room for interpretation there.
This assumes the report is correct, however. Hard to know for a fact since only selected sections of the CVR were ever released, and yet in this particular case, the claim from the magazine should be easy to refute because the French article states, down to the second, at what time the captain is allegedly heard making this comment (010419).
Finally, the French magazine that this report comes from may not be Le Monde, but it isn't in the habit of finding Elvis alive in a Caribbean island or another every other month either. I would take this report very seriously, barring any evidence contradicting it, evidence that, as explained above, would be very easy to provide.
As the trial nears, I would think we would eventually get a full version of the CVR released. In light of this article, if it doesn't happen, allegations, and suspicions, of a cover-up will only increase.
Pihero From France, joined Jan 2005, 3488 posts, RR: 72 Reply 12, posted (2 months 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 30119 times:
Quoting blueflyer (Reply 10): In light of this article, if it doesn't happen, allegations, and suspicions, of a cover-up will only increase
You forget the court case. That point will be discussed at length. The tape will not be made public.
Quoting dfambro (Reply 11): There should be no presumption of privacy during operation of a public transport.
Fortunately I live in France and privacy is very much protected. By law.
Again, the pilot unions will not allow it, and the law is, on this subject, on our side.
For the poster who claims that it is required for safety reasons, we, pilot unions of all countries through IFALPA have acted and are still acting a lot more on fatigue and rest than anybody else, be they bloggers or just thrill seekers. The studies made on these subjects are quite wide ranging and involve a lot more specialised knowledge than you'd think : aeronautical physicians, sleep specialists, psychologists and airline pilots, some of them being also physicians.
So your argument is, I'm afraid, moot.
airproxx From France, joined Jun 2008, 553 posts, RR: 0 Reply 13, posted (2 months 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 29886 times:
Quoting airbuster (Reply 1): You say that pilots are trained to be fit to fly, really? It's more like pilots are TOLD to be fit to fly. The only thing that would give you fit pilots on every flight is to change airline schedules and give them more layover- and leave time, that is no reality in today's economy.
Thanks for this sentence, actually the only one that does make any sense here.
I'm quiet surprised that, considering the fact that such a PR (whatever the source is) is objectively a regular bashing against a dead crew, with all the sensationalism needed to have it published even on A.net, you, as a "moderator" would spread it without any other form of concern towards all the victims.
Now just a small light on the investigations made by French BEA:
You all aviation fans from A.net and others, should know that every AF447 investigations made by the BEA and DGAC, have been biased by an industrial pressure, leading to an incredible and amazing denigration campaign against an air crew, we haven't seen since the A320 accident in Habsheim. The climax of it all occurred when a CVR strip, showing pilots conversation seconds before crash, bleeded illegally into the medias.
While everyone is arguing about what a good pilot should do, must do, should have done this night, etc... The true question should be; why is it so? Why such an important piece of investigation is now publicly revealed?
How come an institution of this importance like BEA made such a mistake?
The result? There's been a terrible buzz around the fact that, if the AF447 pilots were completely panicked on the last moments of the flight, maybe the crash was their own and very fault...!
So reading to this (stupid) story, I'm fearing the same thing is happening as when the CVR extract was (illegally) revealed.
No I'll stop here, knowing that as soon as I can change my A320 type rating for anything-else-but-an-Airbus type rating, I'll go for it.
If you can meet with triumph and disaster, and treat those two impostors just the same
airproxx From France, joined Jun 2008, 553 posts, RR: 0 Reply 14, posted (2 months 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 29797 times:
Quoting Pihero (Reply 12): Fortunately I live in France and privacy is very much protected. By law.
Again, the pilot unions will not allow it, and the law is, on this subject, on our side.
Won't they? They already did, actually.
If you can meet with triumph and disaster, and treat those two impostors just the same
WingedMigrator From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 2024 posts, RR: 57 Reply 15, posted (2 months 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 29748 times:
Quoting ManuCH (Thread starter): an increasingly obvious missing element in resolving the mystery.
Cubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 21208 posts, RR: 19 Reply 16, posted (2 months 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 29649 times:
Quoting Pihero (Reply 12): Again, the pilot unions will not allow it, and the law is, on this subject, on our side.
Why won't the union allow it? Certainly every Part 121 pilot in the United States at least accepts it.
It seems to me that the answer to the question is "E.U. privacy law provides a shield that, here, shields incompetence."
Pilots should be publicly accountable when they do something wrong, no different from professionals in any other industry (though perhaps the public has a heightened right to know with pilots since they are employees of a common carrier).
Quoting Pihero (Reply 12): For the poster who claims that it is required for safety reasons, we, pilot unions of all countries through IFALPA have acted and are still acting a lot more on fatigue and rest than anybody else, be they bloggers or just thrill seekers.
The issue is one of government accountability, not of fatigue.
Sometimes, all government investigative agencies (BEA, NTSB, AAIB, etc.) make mistakes. The more information is public, the better that interested parties can evaluate their work.
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
blueflyer From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 3119 posts, RR: 1 Reply 17, posted (2 months 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 28955 times:
Quoting Pihero (Reply 12): Fortunately I live in France and privacy is very much protected. By law.
I would be the first one to argue that most countries should do better to protect the privacy of their citizens, but I would also say that the right to privacy is not and should never be absolute. If someone enters in a profession where their behavior outside normal working hours can and does have consequences, sometimes fatal, on their performance during working hours and members of the public, they need to accept that, at some point in their career, their right to privacy may have to come second to the right to know, whether that professional is a doctor, a pilot or a plant operator.
That doesn't mean I have the right to know what a pilot does on every layover, but on a layover preceding a fatal accident that he didn't survive to explain himself, it does.
ManuCH From Switzerland, joined Jun 2005, 2971 posts, RR: 51 Reply 18, posted (2 months 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 28956 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW HEAD MODERATOR
Quoting Pihero (Reply 4): And then you add your own comments on these "facts". Are you really so sure that these aircrews could be just a bunch of jolly party goers totally lacking professionalism ?
And do you have the witnesses who could testify on these nocturnal activities by this crew ?
Of course not. I have quoted what I've found. This has been some major news here and a lot of media have talked about it, so I thought it was worth a discussion on A.net. That's what forums are about after all.
Quoting Pihero (Reply 5): I can answer that very quickly : It happened to me in Guadeloupe. Too tired to fly.
Thank you.
Quoting airproxx (Reply 13): I'm quiet surprised that, considering the fact that such a PR (whatever the source is) is objectively a regular bashing against a dead crew, with all the sensationalism needed to have it published even on A.net, you, as a "moderator" would spread it without any other form of concern towards all the victims.
I don't consider that source to be particularly unreliable in general. It's an online news site like many others that may be quoted as sources. As I said, it is something that is making the news, and is causing quite some noise. Why not discuss it on A.net? Again, that's what forums are about. There are some very skilled professionals in here and I was sure that some would have shed some light on the matter, and debunk/discuss/whatever there is to say on that article.
Everyone, there's no need to get so upset here. It's a discussion, and you are all free to bring your arguments. I don't think it's a taboo to speculate, even if there's a final report already.
Quoting WingedMigrator (Reply 15):
Quoting ManuCH (Thread starter):
an increasingly obvious missing element in resolving the mystery.
Excuse me, what mystery?
Not my quote - ask the person who wrote the article/blog.
Quoting Pihero (Reply 12): Fortunately I live in France and privacy is very much protected. By law.
Again, the pilot unions will not allow it, and the law is, on this subject, on our side.
What is the objective reason why the pilot unions are against making the CVR transcripts publicly available? Couldn't it provide interesting information to improve safety?
BenSandilands From Australia, joined Mar 2013, 59 posts, RR: 0 Reply 19, posted (2 months 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 28762 times:
This is not a witch hunt concerning the pilots, as I have repeatedly emphasized elsewhere not as a matter of opinion, but as a matter of law and convention, and in close consultation with sources competent to speak about such matters as well as experienced Airbus pilots among my contacts in the US, in France and in Australia.
The airline is responsible for the performance of its pilots. It is responsible for providing the pilots with a safe work place, and with the appropriate SOPS and fatigue risk management.
What happened to AF447 is the responsibility of Air France. Why it happened is of critical importance to air safety, and the whole purpose of crash investigations is not to blame but to learn and apply, and we cannot learn and apply the lessons of AF447 unless we know everything that happened in the cockpit.
The pilots seem needlessly defensive considering the questions that arise as to how they were managed by the company.
One of the first things A330 pilots did to me in relation to this report was show me what the captain would have seen standing at the back of the cockpit. He would have seen the position of the side stick controllers, including the one the PF kept for almost the entire duration of the crash sequence in the fully back position.
This makes his engagement in resolving the control crisis very important. The disclosure of fatigue is a critical element of this, and one needs to ask, why would the BEA exclude this?
I would urge everyone reading the final report whether in English or French to do what my panel of contacts required me to do, which is print it out, then go through it with a marker pen separating what is a narrative as to what the BEA thinks happened and what the BEA found happened.
The structure of this report is intriguing, in that it includes very early a narrative that sets up the situation in which the less experienced of the two first officers is designated by the captain as the PF, something not discovered by the other first officer until he returned to the flight deck.
The report makes an important point about the way in which the hand over was, or in this case, wasn't fully conducted.
In its guidance post the accident and at about the time an AF panel of review that made confidential recommendations to the company AF did make it clear that new instructions had been issued as to how hand overs were to conducted.
What is intriguing, among many things, in this BEA report, is that it opens certain issues in the narrative but them doesn't close them. How the pilots interacted with each other is of crucial importance.
We cannot get to the truth without knowing what they actually said and did during every second of the crash sequence.
The responsibility for what they did is borne by Air France, not by the pilots. By international convention.
This accident is yet another illustration of the limitations of blogs like mine and the media in general.
Serious study of original material, diligent pursuit of experienced opinion, and refresher reading of the ICAO guidlines for accident reports, all consume an immense amount of time.
Yet we live in a world where it all has to be reduced to a few hundred words or dot points.
My plea to readers of stories about such topics, is NOT to rely on journalists for anything more than signals as to where interesting and hopefully important things may be found. The idea is to start a discussion, and at times, a demand for action. But not to provide shortcuts to answers.
CX Flyboy From Hong Kong, joined Dec 1999, 6338 posts, RR: 56 Reply 20, posted (2 months 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 28217 times:
Quoting Pihero (Reply 5): Our regulations are that a pîlot is sole responsible for estimating his physical / mental capacity to operate as a crew member.
I was given 10 days of rest by the airline medical department, and had to do a check-up before I resumed my duties.
In many airlines an event like this more than once in your career will cause the airline to ground you and recommend that you see therapists for sleep etc... Pure intimidation and the fact is that I would say most airline pilots would continue to work even if they felt exhausted just prior to the flight.
The fact is, longhaul flying is tiring. Many people cannot sleep on demand and if a flight leaves late evening, it would mean waking up for that flight 3-4 hours prior which means that in order to have a good nap prior to the flight, you ned to get into bed and fall asleep by say 4pm....something which is not easy to do. Pilots are humans too and chances are that when you are in the cabin, tired and uncomfortable and unable to sleep in the middle of the night, the pilots could be feeling the same way at the controls. Its just a fact. This is somewhat mitigated by some airlines that have pilots from mixed crew bases, so that on longhaul flights, two crew are tired and sleeping, and two crew are wide awake. Works well but isn't too common in this industry.
hivue From United States of America, joined Feb 2013, 155 posts, RR: 0 Reply 21, posted (2 months 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 28010 times:
Quoting ManuCH (Reply 18): What is the objective reason why the pilot unions are against making the CVR transcripts publicly available? Couldn't it provide interesting information to improve safety?
Aviation authorities, using results of official investigations, are responsible for recommending/authorizing/mandating safety improvements, not the public. The investigators will use the original recordings as their primary source, not transcripts, and there is no justifiable reason for the original recordings to be made available to the public.
Cubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 21208 posts, RR: 19 Reply 23, posted (2 months 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 27718 times:
Quoting hivue (Reply 21): The investigators will use the original recordings as their primary source, not transcripts, and there is no justifiable reason for the original recordings to be made available to the public.
Of course, his question was about transcripts. I can't speak for the European authorities, but I have never known of a transcription issue with the NTSB.
Quoting hivue (Reply 21): Aviation authorities, using results of official investigations, are responsible for recommending/authorizing/mandating safety improvements, not the public.
By virtue of being governmental bodies, aviation authorities are--or should be--accountable to the public.
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
BenSandilands From Australia, joined Mar 2013, 59 posts, RR: 0 Reply 24, posted (2 months 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 27398 times:
Hivue,
The BEA report is supposed to be about safety lessons learned and applied.
The public prosecutor will pursue matters of blame, and punishment, if it goes that far.
Let's step back and consider this as a matter of strategy. If the pilots want to ensure that blame is placed on the systemic issues in the work place that contributed to this tragedy and if they want to have decisive action taken to reform their work place to make it a safer, better equipped workplace, they have I would suggest, very good reason to accept full disclosure in their best interests.
Or, they can join with the company perhaps in wishing to keep it all confidential.
It is also worth keeping in mind the obvious signs in the media in Europe that the full transcript is ready to burst out into the open whether some parties like it or not.
It might therefore be smart to reconsider blanket opposition to full disclosure, and think about the benefits pilots should pursue when it does come out.
25 dfambro: There are plenty of people who have a professional interest in aviation safety issues who should have access, including researchers in academia and p
26 Pihero: First of all, I am for knowing, ands revealing the truth in accident investigatioin. I for one believe in the institutions of my country, be they offi
27 hivue: Yes, I understood that. But the point he was making was that transcripts in the hands of the public lead to imporved safety. I can think of no instan
28 Mir: The public does not have a right to know. The public has a right to safe travel and competent oversight, but that does not mean they get to make the
29 hivue: I think we are losing track of the fact that a trained, professional crew flew the airplane out of its envelope and into a high altitude stall and nev
30 Pihero: I shall quote the conclusions of the BEA report ( English version ) .............. Thus, the accident resulted from the following succession of event
31 Pihero: Thank you, Mir. I couldn't have written it better. That has happened, and still does, which makes me hopping mad. Respect is due. You're either wrong
32 Cubsrule: Not so, and it's not correct that there has to be a conspiracy, as you later posited, either. We have to recognize two things: 1) Governments are mad
33 BenSandilands: I think that had common sense and decency been applied to the question of the disclosure of the full CVR transcript we would not be having this discus
34 BC77008: It's usually taken very lightly by an airline's crew scheduling department.
35 Pihero: Interesting. So you're just illustrating what I said above : without proof, a conspiracy theory on "secrecy". Prove it. It may well be the case that
36 Cubsrule: No conspiracy theory at all. You're here talking about how it's a good thing that some of the transcript has not been released because it protects pi
37 dfambro: Yes, there will always be conspiracy nuts, but that's not relevant to the point I was making. Even the non-nuts distrust when reasonable disclosure i
38 hivue: No. Every one has been appropriate as far as I can recall. My point is that the whole transcript could be redacted from the published NTSB report wit
39 NAV20: Agree to an extent, BenSandilands, but only that the captain's fatigue caused him to 'take a break' in 'difficult weather' - and he may also have 'co
40 mayor: Well, in this case, there would have been a relief crew, right? Perhaps AF could have just switched the crews and their responsibilities, IF the reli
41 AA87: NAV20, you summarized the basics well. But what I've never understood (as a low-time private pilot) is why at least the higher time NPF FO didn't not
42 lightsaber: Interesting... I wanted to rebut a bunch of the 'conspiracy theory' arguments, but what I cannot find is the distribution of the CVR or FDR data as no
43 BenSandilands: NAV20, This is why we need the full, but not personal transcript according to those who were good enough to lead me through the known sequence of even
44 mcdu: Are doctors audio and or video r.tapes available after a death on the operating table? The investigators have a need to know. You and other non-pilot
45 Mir: True. However, they don't have a right to determine, for themselves, whether particular conduct falls below a certain threshold. Not all conversation
46 AirPacific747: Is it a small airline? In many carriers, if you call in sick, you have to provide the airline with a doctor's note, no matter what you felt was the p
47 ManuCH: And this is how mistakes happen. As Cubsrule pointed out earlier: Not because a government entity comes to a conclusion, it must necessarily be corre
48 mcdu: You want to dissect the pilots actions, comments etc, just to prevent a possible government coverup? That is the argument of cubs and CH. Should docto
49 NAV20: Appreciate your comment, AA87. But I'd be grateful if one of the professionals on here would tell us whether a 'Horizontal Situation Indicator' is al
50 moo: Why not? Its a free country - speculation is perfectly fine on all topics. I personally believe that the investigation should be handled by experts w
51 ManuCH: Honestly? Yes, I think so. Of course by preserving the patient's identity/privacy etc. But medical errors are one of those things that make me angry
52 Pihero: What I uinderstand is that of all the references I made to this accident, the extract from the BEA official final report, etc... none has been replied
53 Pihero: HSI is for "horizontal Situation Indicator", ie a display of the navigation plan and the compass rose. It displays the VOR / ADFs indicator needles i
54 ManuCH: Everyone, I know this is a sensitive and controversial topic, but please make sure not to get personal and/or offensive towards other users.
55 workhorse: Well, the term used was not the right one, but the question still remains: how could none of them pay attention to the plane's nose up attitude? Also
56 mcdu: As mentioned by another poster the HSI is not an attitude instrument. You are trying to say AADI. However, the airbus uses PFD's for primary flight d
57 NAV20: Cheers, Pihero, always (sincerely) good to see you! Thing is, though, in a glider, you have to make sure that you're maintaining a 'sink-rate' of at
58 AA87: Thank you, meant attitude direction (director ?) indicator. I've been in Airbus cockpits many times, including in flight, isn't the ADI always displa
59 AA87: Finally ! To my credit, I said to an ATP friend after the CVRs were firrst released years ago that we'll never know exactly what the pilots were seei
60 AA87: That was the point of my question. I would be shocked if the artificial horizon, which is such a basic instrument, was not visible in all PFD modes.
61 airmagnac: I don’t understand this fuss about voice recordings disclosure, to be honest. It is a case of balancing collective rights – right to safety – an
62 airmagnac: That's an idea, let's shut down all accident investigation boards and replace them with Google. Full access to info, no hiding anything, any answer y
63 NAV20: I guess we largely agree, armagnac. All we have to settle on are the 'percentages' of guilt. Establishing that'll take five years or so, hope you liv
64 NAV20: Thing is, airmagnac mate, in real life, dealing with any problem, you have to investigate, analyse, conclude, recommend....... Please give us all an
65 threepoint: As a professional pilot and devotee to the philosophy of 'learn from the mistakes of others; you'll not live long enough to make them all yourself',
66 hivue: As a "professional pilot" you do not qualify as "the public" in this situation. That's excellent. Aviation professionals certainly should have access
67 ManuCH: How do you define "aviation professionals" and how where would you draw the line between those who can get access, and those who can't? And how do yo
68 airmagnac: Actually I don't give a d*** about aportioning blame. I don't even think it's possible. I'm a system engineer ; I see the airline industry as a huge
69 Pihero: To Airmagnac : That is the best post I've seen so far on this thread and, as a matter of fact, the AF447 accident. Respect is due. If I may, I would h
70 captainmeeerkat: How does "last night" become the actual day of flying? Or is there something lost in translation?
71 Cubsrule: Most of the squeamishness about the Concorde crash, at least that I've seen, has nothing to do with the technical questions but is legal or cultural
72 art: Bit off topic but I, too, am baffled that the crew did not see some instrument or display showing that the aircraft had its nose above the horizon.
73 ltbewr: While I do support that potential alertness issues could be a factor in what happened with AF447, I think some here are just wanting to fine the 'ah-h
74 BenSandilands: As someone new to the board but a reader for some time, I'm struck by the way unrelated issues distract from the core issue. Let me summarise: Le Poin
75 Pihero: There are, my dear sir a great deal of instances where "simple negligence" led to catastrophies, even some which do not involve the French : The Erme
76 Cubsrule: I agree. But besides Concorde, have ANY led to criminal charges? That's the difference that has caused a lot of concern in the States, fair or not. O
77 mcdu: normal cruise flight is a few degrees nose above the horizon. In fact a heavy transport aircraft is rarely nose below the horizon. Most descents can
78 Pihero: Basically most of them. some people have been imprisoned for reckless behaviour leading to manslaughter. That's the way our system works. And you hav
79 Cubsrule: I do respect it, but by the same token you need to understand why a lot of folks on this side of the pond (particularly those who, unlike me, lack co
80 BenSandilands: What is not normal is that the accident report has suppressed a reference to fatigue which is a reflection on the operator if we accept that the leak
81 mayor: True.....I'm sure they all vary, but all fly better, a little "nose up". I remember doing weight & balance on the 727 and it flew better and was
82 threepoint: Nonsense. I'm very much a part of the general public. You may not know but most aviation safety courses outside the airlines are delivered to pilots
83 rfields5421: The head of the Aerospatiale Concorde division and the chief engineer were suspects in the criminal investigation, for negligence with over 70 instan
84 rfields5421: In an fantastically detailed analysis of released FDR data, A.Net member mandala499 showed us how it appeared the PF was chasing a nose up pitch of a
85 hivue: The poster I was addressing in my response identified himself as a professional pilot and as teaching a CRM course. That was easy. You are correct in
86 Azure: I am struck by a number of comments that seek to establish a conspiracy in which the BEA would be the big boss. I fail to understand what is the purpo
87 airmagnac: And yet your complaint is based on the fact that this single sentence was not disclosed to the public. Many countries appointed observers to the inve
88 Cubsrule: All correct as far as I know. My point was that Aerospatiale/EADS (corporate) were neither investigated nor charged when it was obvious that there we
89 airmagnac: I have very little legal knowledge, so just out of curiosity, what makes you say the the French have ?
90 Cubsrule: It's a good question. Generally, French law is much more protective of French nationals (as opposed to nationals of other countries) than other civil
91 Pihero: You remember wrong. Henri Perrier, The Concorde "father" and his assistant Herubel have been condemned for negligence leading to involontary manslaug
92 OzGlobal: You're kidding, right? The US is notorious in placing itself and its citizens outside international and extra-national law. It is alone in unique in
93 rfields5421: While design issues might possibly have been apparent, the BEA report found the primary active element of cause was the improper unauthorized repair
94 Cubsrule: Do you have a source for EADS being charged? For instance, the BBC's writeup says this: The BBC's pre-charges article says this: Rejection of interna
95 Pihero: "Aucune faute pénale n’a, en revanche, été retenue contre trois cadres de l’aéronautique français, dont Henri Perrier, considéré comme le p
96 Cubsrule: Civil negligence and money damages, no? Quite a bit different from criminal charges. Maybe, but it's an important distinction. How would you feel if
97 Pihero: I have no idea, and I haven't been awre of that fact.KL I guess is that unless we have comparable laws and penalties, these anomalies will remain, li
98 Pihero: Sorry . I was involved somewhere else. The design issues came as a complete surprise to all concerned : the wing skin and the fuel tank were punture-
99 Cubsrule: The question was, I think, why some don't take everything BEA says as gospel truth, and it seems to me that this is all related. Charging the individ
100 Pihero: Sorry. I tried to have a nice chat with you., but unfortunately I'm just an airline pilot and we do not have a subject to talk about on equal terms.
101 Cubsrule: You've piqued my curiosity: what did the designers think would happen with a tire failure during the takeoff roll?
102 AA87: All the technical back and forth by professionals on this board is fascinating, but that is the upshot. The most shocking and terrifying thing about
103 rfields5421: No one is saying everything the BEA says is gospel truth. The other poster has made his opinion of some of the decisions reached by BEA investigators
104 NAV20: I hope that one simple (and not overly subtle) change is made soon. This accident was basically caused by one simple fact - that the PF hauled his si
105 BenSandilands: NAV20 Stand at the back of an A330 cockpit. You can see where both side stick controllers are. This is why I suspect the fatigue reference alleged to
106 David L: Seriously? After how many threads on the subject? Please read the report. Again, please read the report.
107 Kaiarahi: Actually, it does (or can) in most civil law jurisdictions - Spain, Italy, Germany, South America, etc. For example, Williams F1 management were char
108 David L: It was not simply "a tyre failure". After several years of asking, many of us are still waiting for evidence that other types running over a titanium
109 rfields5421: He did not say that. The tanks possibly being punctured by a tire failure during takeoff or landing roll were a consideration. That is why the Concor
110 AirlineCritic: This thread reminds of the old joke about someone wishing to die like his grandfather, peacefully in his sleep, and not screaming in terror, like his
111 hivue: Thank you. You have supplied a perfect example for those of us who find quite ridiculous all this speculation about conspiracies, the BEA covering fo
112 Cubsrule: If anything, BEA is most culplable because . . . AFAIK the 20 year history of pleas from NTSB to do something about protection from tire debris is un
113 Kaiarahi: Perhaps because the BEA did, in fact, consider fatigue and human factors in extraordinary detail: "The CVR recording does, however, make it possible
114 David L: So, the wait for evidence continues, then. Once again, it was not simply a tyre failure of the type that had ever happened before or could be reasona
115 Cubsrule: No, but it would surely be different. Remember that Concorde's takeoff speed was around 400 kilometers per hour, much higher than other types (30 per
116 rfields5421: Tire carcass can be extremely high energy impacts. Even the 'alligators' we see in the roadways of the US. Just two weeks ago a friend of mine had ei
117 David L: Sorry but I put that in the same category as "I would imagine that...". It's easy to say what one thinks might happen when it had never happened to a
118 captainmeeerkat: Thank you, I had a feeling that the essence of this idiotic headline was lost in this translation somewhere.
119 Kaiarahi: I think that translating the charge as "manslaughter" also contributed to the unhappiness. The actual provision in the Code pénal is more akin to "c
120 Cubsrule: That's fair, but unlike the post-strike effects, we ought to be able to prove whether a burst tyre can acquire X kinetic energy with which to strike
121 Kaiarahi: To be fair to ManuCH (OP), the English translation of the article he referred to conveniently left out "tout à l'heure" - which completely changes w
122 David L: But... the post-strike effects are what caused the fuel tank to rupture, not just the kinetic energy in the initial impact. Unless it can be shown th
123 Pihero: Which, once again should tell us to be more careful with newspaper reporting vs official reports. There has been quite a lot of accusations cast at A
124 art: It does - the captain said two things - he did not get enough sleep the previous night (no mention of how many hours he did sleep); he had slept for
125 Kaiarahi: Not to mention that it's completely devoid of context. For example, suppose that his friend (who was on the flight - that's also been the topic of a
126 BenSandilands: Let me go back to the core issue, which isn't the Concorde tragedy, or the laws of France. The core issue is the omission of sections of the CVR. The
127 hivue: Obviously. But, it seems, publishing a CVR transcript is not.
128 Cubsrule: . . . but not from the failure that we are talking about here (fuel tank rupture), or am I missing one? FOD on the runway, while unfortunate, is not
129 dfambro: Really? Do you know that for a fact? Frankly, I had assumed they have sigificant redactions because there are significant gaps with no talking during
130 Pihero: Had you read quite a few of the posts above, you'd have understood that the full transcript won't be for your use. The tribunal has it, the experts i
131 Pihero: I have just found an article on a French newspaper and it is obvious that the reporter has used this forum and another well known site for some really
132 NAV20: Agree as far as it goes, BenSandilands - but the more senior pilot could not have seen his colleague's sidestick from his seat - nor could he have kn
133 threepoint: Well if these exclamations of a personal nature aren't human factors, I don't know what are. I think to censor the transcript of an accident to exclu
134 mandala499: The funny thing, yes, I am pretty certain that the full CVR recordings would not reveal anything new other than more panic, mayhem etc... which puts
135 JimJupiter: As a quiet reader of the AF447-threads since the beginning I just wanted to thank you (and of course the other knowledgeable contributors) for some o
136 mozart: As another quiet (because too incompetent to contribute) reader of this thread I also want to express my gratitude and respect for the high quality o
137 David L: I think you're cherry-picking from my replies. I'd certainly be very wary of a legal system that can dismiss more predictable failures as "just one o
138 NAV20: To quote from that transcript, David L:- Bonin: We're still going down. Robert: We're pulling. ... What do you think about it, what do you think? What
139 Cubsrule: I don't disagree, but certainly, we'd expect that the kinetic energy of the striking object has a pretty significant impact on what sort of waves pro
140 Kaiarahi: All factually wrong. Please, please read the report. It's here: http://www.bea.aero/docspa/2009/f-cp090601.en/pdf/f-cp090601.en.pdf (English); http:/
141 NAV20: Tried to, Kaiarahi mate, but neither link worked! Please explain, in as few words as possible, to what extent the 'reports' to which you refer differ
142 David L: I am not an aeronautical engineer but I do have an Honours Degree in Physics. While certainly not an expert by any means, I don't think I'm entirely
143 Unflug: The links do work for me. You can also just go to http://www.bea.aero and look up the reports there. It's easy, you won't have to buy a new computer.
144 Cubsrule: I'm not sure at all. This whole discussion began with me asking a question (not of you) concerning whether a catastrophic tire failure during takeoff
145 NAV20: Dead serious, mate. But - not the fault of any contributors on here - Thanks for a new point, David L. Have to admit, not sure that I can say for cer
146 David L: Fair enough. I confess, in the days and weeks immediately after the accident, I jumped on the bandwagon in assuming the fuel tank had actually been p
147 NAV20: I'd be genuinely grateful if you gave me a summary, David L? 'Learning' was more or less my profession, for quite a long time - blowed if I'll stop n
148 David L: I'm sure they had more than enough training on transfer of control - I'm sticking my neck out but I don't think it's rocket science. The problem was
149 hivue: No, there is nothing that forces anyone to speculate. Private speculation may be a natural reaction but public speculation is a choice. The media cho
150 Kaiarahi: I just accessed them from 4 different computers. Enough said. Read the report - it's all in there.
151 NAV20: Not entirely sure in my own mind, DavidL. But I think it's more than a possibility. Can anyone else remember ANY serious accident report that didn't
152 Kaiarahi: Yes there is. It's all in the report.
153 David L: Just to be clear, my comments about transfer of control referred to the time around the dual-input where you said the PNF couldn't have known the PF
155 David L: Thank you... for illustrating the inconsistency of my words.
156 airmagnac: I do not disagree with your objective of providing information to the general public or the people who are not familiar with the design & use of
157 Cubsrule: Agreed. Let me share such an observation: This conclusion: does not follow from these "reasons:" A non-stressful (some might say "mind-numbingly bori
158 mandala499: I guess you have not seen the FDR plots after all this time? I'll add to the fact that the FDR plot reveals a bigger problem than the alleged cannot
159 Kaiarahi: You need to read section 1.16.8 in the report, which deals in extenso with the psychometric effects of Circadian rhythms, fatigue, anxiety, tension,
160 dfambro: Based on the FDR, the co-pilot in the right seat starts making control inputs again just a few seconds after 2:11:35 It boggles my mind that pilots be
161 Cubsrule: I have. It doesn't discuss fatigue. It may be that there is additional evidence that tends to suggest that there was not a fatigue issue; my point is
162 BenSandilands: There is an exercise that those on this forum who know or are pilots in carriers with large fleets of A330s or even other Airbus types might care to u
163 N14AZ: That's what I was thinking all the time. Even if the captain would have been fit as a sport shoe, I guess it wouldn't have made a big difference. If
164 Kaiarahi: They did - it's in the interim report.
165 mandala499: Two A320 operator here: "What did we miss?" was their immediate reaction. They immediately added or modified (can't remember) ALTN LAW NO PROT flight
166 BenSandilands: BUSS is very important. It seemed disturbing to me that in anything other than an A380 Airbus was demanding money for unlocking something that was of
167 airmagnac: I'm not a pilot You cherry-picked and conveniently left out the rest of my explanation. Which is not that complicated : a group is made up of individ
168 dfambro: I understood you and quoted what was relevant. The rest of your explanation doesn't really hold up, frankly. For one, what does "stop cooperating" me
169 hivue: The marginal cost for BUSS is not likely to be relevant to an airline's chosing the option (when it has a choice) or passing on it. The decision woul
170 BenSandilands: hivue, When I was being sent to France at frequent intervals for weeks at a time by a news organisation in London Air Inter elected not to install GPW
171 rfields5421: I'll go so far as to say that the pilots in AF447 actually maintained a significant level of control over the aircraft. It fell in a stable attitude
172 dfambro: No facts wrong, I was just speaking loosely (and a little hyperbolicly) to make a point. What bothers me is that I think you and others see this issu
173 hivue: OK. But the act of driving an automobile on public roads is inherently a public act as well. I trust that you believe motorists should have no expect
174 Cubsrule: Please send me some links to whatever literature shows that either (1) times of low-stress, low-skill, repetitive tasks are good times to judge fatig
175 Pihero: Quoting BenSandilands (Reply 166): BUSS is very important. It seemed disturbing to me that in anything other than an A380 Airbus was demanding money f
176 dfambro: Honestly, I don't know where you're going with this. What you say inside your own private vehicle is private. Is anyone disputing that? As for accide
177 Cubsrule: In a lot of states, EDR/black box data belongs to the vehicle owner. But it's not really a good analogy, since airlines as common carriers have a hig
178 BenSandilands: Pihero, You've descended to some very offensive comments about me which are untrue. I may be new here, but I would have thought that while we may disa
179 mandala499: A classic case of overcontrolling the aircraft ending up in task-saturation hence spatial disorientation... The sad part is, this isn't an easy issue
180 Pihero: Where did I insult you ? I have tried to put thiis event in perspective : The gendarmes found the wreckage, guided by one of the survivors. Not one o
181 BenSandilands: Pihero, Sorry. Been elsewhere this afternoon. I have reviewed only a few of the search results for Air Inter 148, among them this extract from the Wik
182 N14AZ: I might be wrong but I think something like this never existed (sorry for being OT but this caught my attention.
183 BenSandilands: No you're right. Using the A Net photo search engine it is clear that the Mercure's retained the Air Inter livery until they were parked. I think my m
184 Pihero: This is one aspect of your research I really do not agree with : Your wariness of the supposed partiality of the official documents prevents you from
185 David L: I'm not aware of the mission statement being put as such. Replace "to reveal, not conceal" with "to determine probable causes" and I'll agree with th
186 art: Just a loose translation for those who do not speak French: Wikipedia: Deux civils et un journaliste des DNA, ayant fait des recherches à leur propre
187 NAV20: On the thread's main subject - the accident itself - this NASA analysis impressed me quite a lot. It basically says that pilots nowadays are not train
188 airmagnac: There are 3 seperate aspects being discussed here : 1) The safety investigation, which aims to understand the global failure of the system, and propo
189 Kaiarahi: I don't know what your aversion to reading the BEA report is, but there have been at least 3 a.net threads explaining why an AOA would have been at b
190 Kaiarahi: That says it all, really. I prefer the analysis and conclusions of an expert investigative authority with participants/observers from a dozen countri
191 Cubsrule: I deal with human factors literature on an almost daily basis, and with human factors literature on fatigue on probably a weekly to several-times-a-m
192 David L: Furthermore, I don't believe it is by accident that NAV20 implies that Airbus is unique in not providing an AoA indicator as standard on a modern air
193 NAV20: Probably because I mostly flew gliders myself, Kaiarahi. The AOA was probably the instrument I used most. Getting the nose too high for too long - an
194 David L: A dive? Can you provide evidence of that? Later in the event they knew the PF was trying to climb but they were actually falling. That's not the same
195 rfields5421: Because as you have read on previous threads, because as cited several times in the technical analysis, because as cited several times in the BEA rep
196 NAV20: I merely said that the A330 doesn't have one as standard, David L? For all I know, the other manufacturers don't provide one either? But, IMO, any th
197 Pihero: One of the reasons I am not very keen on providing links ( btw, you forgot to mention that the NASA link was originally mine - and clearly stated as
198 Kaiarahi: AOA does NOT measure pitch. It measures the angle between the airfoil chord and the air mass through which the aircraft is moving. What evidence? The
199 David L: An important point, don't you think? In what way do you disagree with the reasons they have not been included as standard in most modern airliners?
200 Cubsrule: Two points: 1) Dozing doesn't help. Good quality sleep helps, even if it's of short duration. In English, the word dozing implies poor quality sleep,
201 hivue: The equivalent of a CVR transcript would be one of these dashboard cameras that seem to be ubiquitous in some parts of the world. If you were involve
202 Kaiarahi: It's somewhat ambiguous. "Somnoler" could mean "doze", but it could also mean "nap". However, the captain specifically asked the PM about the quality
203 Kaiarahi: Just like the stories widely circulated by journalists a few months ago that the captain's female friend was on board. The insinuation (even explicit
204 Kaiarahi: Although we do know from the CVR extracts cited by BEA that the captain was attentive to the issue, suggesting that FO2 could take a 20 minute nap if
205 art: I can't get it to download either. If you are losing indicated altitude and believe your altimeter reading what could be responsible for that? - the
206 Kaiarahi: Are you clicking on the tick mark under the language flag? That's the point. The procedure for loss of speeds is pitch and power. They had everything
207 Kaiarahi: Minor quibble - the VSI was pinned at max (they were actually descending faster than it could indicate). But they still had the unwinding alti.
208 airmagnac: As you mentioned, we're in agreement up to here. It's afterwards that we diverge. As I understand, you seem to think that the BEA should have explici
209 BenSandilands: After more than one hours sleep but waking up to a massive number of unrelated email messages and special link communications one that stands out is a
210 Kaiarahi: I really don't understand how this relates to the topic at hand (AF447).
211 Cubsrule: No, not at all. I don't think they should consider fatigue a factor because that would require guessing, where some of the other human factors explan
212 David L: I was just about to say the same. I'm not sure how it relates to any of the points raised in this thread. Perhaps it was posted in the wrong thread b
213 BenSandilands: Wiki is not my source for anything. The only reason to offer a link to Wiki is that it can be an entry point to more important reference points, as us
214 Kaiarahi: As best I could tell, your comment was about: I still can't see the relevance to alleged fatigue on the flight deck of AF447.
215 David L: It's a rather abrupt change in direction, nevertheless. Modern automation is a topic that has been gathering momentum for a while now - but not in th
216 Pihero: Because an accident investigation should not leave any potential factor out. In terms of **human** factors, especially on long haul sectors, fatigue
217 airmagnac: So we're mostly in agreement I think, except for this point. I've already explained my POV. Should we agree to disagree on this one ? In a few posts
218 BenSandilands: Just for the record, I'm not a non specialised journo. Or non specialist journalist. According to the rules which I believe apply to all of us, nor am
219 David L: Isn't that clear from the report available to the public? I've stayed out of the meat of that discussion but, I have to say, I'm far from impressed.
220 BenSandilands: David L, Which I acknowledged. I must say, as a newcomer here, that sometimes the discussion loses its way, and on this occasion, I didn't help by not
221 Pihero: Ben, First of all, the quqlificative of **journo** didn't apply to you, but your colleagues at the Point. TRhey are well-known, as well as their ageda
222 Cubsrule: I agree that fatigue should have been examined, and it was. To me, though, the conclusion was unsupported and would have been better not made. Again,
223 airtechy: Once an accident report is published and finalized a list of recommendations usually appears...in the case of the NTSB reports after the probable caus
224 Kaiarahi: Quite a lot. It's a pity it wasn't cited - but that's perhaps a function of "insider expertise" in assuming that informed readers are aware of it. Ag
225 Pihero: As you seem interested in the subject, start with this CAA paper on crew fatigue A good summing up on the subject. When you finish, I can provide mor
226 Kaiarahi: Obviously, you can believe what you want. However, Airbus conducted very extensive pilot testing with linked and non-linked sidesticks during the A32
227 rfields5421: Many were in the process of being implemented before the FDR and CVR were ever found. Others have been addressed. AF447 has been a huge learning expe
228 airtechy: I would only point out that when those tests were run none of their aircraft had been involved in accidents where the implementation of the sidestick
229 Cubsrule: As I think I said a while back, my human factors experience is outside of aviation. That said, outside of aviation, we wouldn't look at a time of rot
230 NAV20: Interesting, Kaiarahi. Given that virtually all aeroplanes had had linked yokes or sticks up to that time, why was there an 'overwhelming preference'
231 airtechy: One additional thought, as part of my instrument training the art of scanning the instruments was drummed into my head. This was in airplanes that had
232 airtechy: So basically only increased training. No changes to the airplane.....except the new pitots....that we know of.
233 rfields5421: No - because he does not have to do that. He can easily see the sidestick movement without having to turn his head as much as he has to if he wants t
234 BenSandilands: Pihero, Your language is offensive. But at the risk of further side tracks, I'll let others reflect on personal abuse. Yes I am the author of those ar
235 airtechy: Well, if you believe that the pilots were competent you either have to believe that: 1: Except for the airspeed, the airplane presented all flight da
236 StressedOut: I totally agree Pihero. After seeing the headlines and reading several of Ben's blog entries over the past year, I find his tactics to be disturbing
237 Pihero: That's strange : the paper deals with symptoms - or not - of wakefulness and fatigue for a wide range of examples throughout all different operations
238 Pihero: Further to the leaking of the Judicial report : As I hinted, the French laws on confidentiality, protection of identities, protection of privacy... ha
239 David L: I don't think many believe the crew acted competently during those four minutes. In order to conclude that the displays and controls need to be redes
240 NAV20: With respect, David L, didn't mean it as some sort of 'Boeing v. Airbus' comment. Just can't imagine anyone who's flown anything being in favour of a
241 David L: True but, remembering the Tech/Ops thread about the BEA Recommendations, I got the impression that some of those recommendations might not be as stra
242 David L: Yes, I'll give you that one! I should have stated that I was quoting that line in order to make a comment to those who often do quote the phrase and
243 David L: Neither can I. Neither can Airbus. Airbus is not in favour of such a system. You just keep repeating the same things you've been saying here for year
244 Cubsrule: That's not really its point. Which parts of it do you see as supportive of BEA's conclusions? Edited to add: If the paper were supportive of BEA's co
245 rwessel: The artificial horizon will tell you where the nose of the aircraft is relative to the horizon, which, as this accident illustrates, can be massively
246 David L: Yes but I think what art is getting at generally is that pitch versus descent rate should have told them that their alpha was excessively high. The P
247 NAV20: I suspect that you've 'put your finger on it,' David L. We'll never know for certain why neither of the guys concerned realised that they were in a h
248 Kaiarahi: Their training is all set out in the BEA R-E-P-O-R-T and its adequacy is analysed in detail. Perhaps we should all just stop responding to you until
249 Pihero: Which brings us back to **recommendations** to the certifying authorities, against **implementation orders** . Note that the report addresses only th
250 Cubsrule: . . . and I think the disagreement is telling The BEA report was, in my opinion, too quick to draw a conclusion on fatigue based on very limited evid
251 Kaiarahi: Or even, backing up a step, "there is insufficient evidence to assess if this crew was fatigued".
252 Cubsrule: That's what I was trying to say. You put it much better.
253 Pihero: Is your wording fundamentally different from : "This lack of precise information on their activity during the stopover, in particular in relation to
254 David L: I second Kaiarahi. Read the report, including the CVR. Whether or not they were aware that protections had been lost is covered. Whether or not the a
255 Cubsrule: I'm not really sure what "objective fatigue" is. Translation issue, perhaps?
256 Pihero: See for yourself : "L’enregistrement du CVR permet cependant de faire ressortir que l’équipage de conduite ne présentait pas de signes de fatig
257 Cubsrule: If the point is that there were no objective signs of fatigue, I'd agree with that. Of course, there were no objective signs of lack of fatigue eithe
258 David L: To me it means that they can't be sure what level of fatigue the crew was experiencing but they couldn't find any evidence that they were definitely f
259 NAV20: Guess we're not that far apart, David L. You're apparently 'happy' that the 'most probable cause' of the accident was 'pilot error.' I agree, more or
260 hivue: A possible definition: "Subjective fatigue" is when you say "I'm not tired. I can drive another 200 miles." "Objectiive fatigue" is when the passenge
261 David L: Absolutely wrong. If you'd been paying any attention to what I've said since day one you would even think of accusing me of such a thing. That is ver
262 Unflug: I have no idea where further "facts" should come from. Certainly from time to time there will be some journalist picking some pieces of information,
263 mandala499: Let me help him with: Over 90% of all Airbus pilots whose first jet line job was on a yoke equipped jet that I have met, prefers the sidestick... the
264 Pihero: It is called progress. Without it, we would still be on our belly and shifting our weight from side to side in order to bend the wing. Using flight c
265 NAV20: Looks like the BEA, in its report, rather agrees with me that the more experienced pilot could not easily see what the PF was doing with his sidestic
266 hivue: And that's all it says. Don't read more into it than is there. A side stick or yoke is not a flight instrument.
267 art: Had not thought of that, thanks. But I think it comes under my 3rd query below. I have never stalled anything I have flown (except intentionally when
268 rwessel: Well, that *is* the fundamental mystery of AF447 - how did they fail to understand they were in a stall. At the end of the day, they sat baffled in a
269 David L: No, there are some significant differences. You have continually stated that neither pilot can see what the other is doing with the side-stick. The B
270 NAV20: I'm afraid that I'm not, David L. Must have missed them. Please re-post the relevant link(s)? Maybe please also explain why, if AOA is no longer nece
271 rfields5421: While the standby altimeter was unwinding like a fast clock in a movie, the VSI was very quickly pegged to the maximum limit. Only late in the fall d
272 hivue: This paragraph in the BEA report also points out that "The angle of attack in cruise is close to the stall warning trigger angle of attack in a law o
273 captainmeeerkat: This story has now been picked up by the Irish newspaper (Irish Independent), infactually reporting the same sensationalist headlines as the original
274 mandala499: It does not. What you quoted does nto agree with what you think it means. It cannot be determined beyond doubt what the PF was chasing in the pitch a
275 rfields5421: Just to add to your comment on NAV20's repeated questions. I've long been of the opinion that recover of AF447 was probably not possible after about
276 NAV20: 'For the record,' rfields5421, agree entirely. Once they were in a deep stall the chances of 'recovery' were very thin indeed. But that isn't my poin
277 Pihero: True, but that slow initial reaction to control inputs of the aeroplane would rather quickly accelerate, hence some of the recovery difficulties. Fro
278 CamiloA380: The "Sidestick" thing has been discussed ridiculously many times. Read previous threads (or even here) on AF447 and you will find out. Same thing reg
279 LipeGIG: As this reaches more than 250 posts, we opened a new one in which we ask you all to post further comments. This one will be locked. Captain Of AF447 O
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