celestar From Singapore, joined Jul 2001, 257 posts, RR: 0 Posted (3 months 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 2004 times:
Sad to see Cathay is parking/retire more B747-400 in recent months. I will always miss my flight experience on them. When CX or just about any other airlines, decided to retire their existing fleet type, how would they choose which aircraft to take out first? Based on landing cycles or other consideration. Are these decision done on a quantitative manner? What parameters would they used to judge the status of which aircraft should be retire out first. Please help me to understand
flyingalex From Germany, joined Jul 2010, 1007 posts, RR: 1 Reply 1, posted (3 months 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 1980 times:
The biggest consideration seems to be how close the aircraft is to needing expensive maintenance (like a C check or D check). The maintenance schedule is determined by the aircraft's hours and cycles, so that is usually the most important metric.
Sometimes, an airline may also choose to retire an aircraft earlier if it has a known history of issues (so-called "hangar queens").
Public service announcement: "It's" = "it is". To indicate posession, write "its." Looks wrong, but it's correct grammar
BreninTW From Taiwan, joined Jul 2006, 1469 posts, RR: 1 Reply 2, posted (3 months 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 1977 times:
I imagine the main driver would be when the next round of heavy maintenance is due. Some airlines have been known to retire newer aircraft before older ones because the older ones had gone through heavy maintenance, while the newer ones were still due it.
There would also be the question of whether the aircraft is leased or owned ... leased aircraft may be retired earlier than owned ones as leases come to an end.
I'm tired of the A vs. B sniping. Neither make planes that shed wings randomly!
dalmd88 From United States of America, joined Jul 2000, 2370 posts, RR: 15 Reply 3, posted (3 months 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 1957 times:
It usually is driven by a big cost expenditure coming due. That can be driven by landing cycles or calendar days. Many times they will fly up until it is due to 'D' check. Other times it may be the gear is coming up for overhaul and the D check is getting close. Sometimes once a fleet begins retirement a particular airframe may go into a lower check than a D and major corrosion is found. Parts may be hard to find and costly to have custom made, so that airframe becomes the next to go to the scrapper.
celestar From Singapore, joined Jul 2001, 257 posts, RR: 0 Reply 4, posted (3 months 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 1390 times:
Thanks all the informative feedback.
I am then puzzled by the recent post I read on this website about a very well used Lufthansa B747-400. I believe other Lufthansa B747, which is younger in fleet operation, was retired earlier and in this case, what would be the reason on keeping this B747-400 for so long? It can't just be maintenance cost/schedule alone, right?
BreninTW From Taiwan, joined Jul 2006, 1469 posts, RR: 1 Reply 5, posted (3 months 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 1263 times:
Quoting celestar (Reply 4): I am then puzzled by the recent post I read on this website about a very well used Lufthansa B747-400. I believe other Lufthansa B747, which is younger in fleet operation, was retired earlier and in this case, what would be the reason on keeping this B747-400 for so long? It can't just be maintenance cost/schedule alone, right?
Probably the newer one was due an expensive check, while the older one had already been through the check.
I'm tired of the A vs. B sniping. Neither make planes that shed wings randomly!
PurdueAv2003 From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 246 posts, RR: 1 Reply 6, posted (3 months 23 hours ago) and read 1125 times:
With many operators leasing their aircraft these days, the leasing contracts also factor heavily into retirement decisions. If the operator decides not to renew its lease on an aircraft, the lessor decides what to do with the aircraft when it is returned. Since many lease returns end up being higher time airframes, a lot of them end up parked in a bone yard or scrapped, even though they technically have not reached the end of their design life.
VV701 From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2005, 6675 posts, RR: 17 Reply 7, posted (3 months 14 hours ago) and read 840 times:
Quoting celestar (Reply 4): I am then puzzled by the recent post I read on this website about a very well used Lufthansa B747-400. I believe other Lufthansa B747, which is younger in fleet operation, was retired earlier and in this case, what would be the reason on keeping this B747-400 for so long?
Following the credit crunch BA retired eight 744s between October 2008 and February 2010. It is fair to assume that none of these retirements would have occurred without the credit crunch as all eight aircraft had undergone expensive cabin refurbishments in 2007 and the oldest had been repainted in June 2008 right in front of the start of the credit crunch.
The eight aircraft were G-BNLA, the oldest aircraft in the fleet, 'LB (second oldest), 'LC (3), 'LD (4), 'LG (7), 'LH (8), LU (20) and 'LV (21).
The second and third oldest were ferried to CWL in November ('LB) and October '08 ('LC). They were later broken up at CWL in December and November '11.
The oldest ('LA), fourth oldest ('LD) and eighth oldest ('LH) were all ferried for desert storage at VCV within four weeks of being withdrawn from service and are still there.
The remaining three were similarly ferried to VCV for desert storage. However 'LV was ferried back to CWL in July '10 and was followed by 'LU in March '11 and 'LG in June '11. At CWL these three aircraft all underwent a 'D' Check and cabin refurbishment before being returned to service in December '10, July '11 and December '11 respectively.
So it is pretty clear that as of 2007 BA had no plans to imminently retire any of these aircraft (indicated by significant expenditure on refurbishment / painting in that year).
It would also seem that from the moment they were retired the second and third oldest aircraft were at least penciled in to be broken up as they were never ferried to desert storage. However all the other six aircraft were ferried to VCV within a month of being taken out of service.
These remaining six aircraft appear to have been stored in the desert with a view to a possible return to service at some later date. Indeed three have been returned to service. All three required a D Check prior to re-entering service. So it is likely that all the other retired 744s also required a D Check soon after they were retired.
Note that BA's oldest 744, 'LA, was not permanently retired and broken up like 'LB and 'LC. Perhaps this was because it was approaching a C and not a more expensive D Check back in October '09. Note also the jump from BA's eighth oldest 744 ('LH) to their twentieth oldest ('LU) suggesting that imminent service needs were a much more significant metric than pure age.
PSU.DTW.SCE From United States of America, joined Jan 2002, 6910 posts, RR: 29 Reply 8, posted (3 months 13 hours ago) and read 742 times:
Quoting dalmd88 (Reply 3): It usually is driven by a big cost expenditure coming due. That can be driven by landing cycles or calendar days. Many times they will fly up until it is due to 'D' check. Other times it may be the gear is coming up for overhaul and the D check is getting close. Sometimes once a fleet begins retirement a particular airframe may go into a lower check than a D and major corrosion is found. Parts may be hard to find and costly to have custom made, so that airframe becomes the next to go to the scrapper.
As said, it is usually a big expenditure coming near. Usually this is a heavy maintenance check or an Airworthiness Directive.
The best example of this is DL's 757s. There are some older high-time 757s in service that are expected to be retired later this year when they approach their next heavy maintenance check. Meanwhile there have been some newer 757s parked in storage, which were put into desert storage when they came due for a heavy maintenance check. DL doesn't need all of the capacity of every single 757 in its fleet so they are putting time on the aircraft until it needs to be retired, at which time they will put the newer frame through the maintenance check and get it back in operation. This has the benefit of deffering the maintenance cost until it is really needed.
In other cases a few years ago, NW flew the last of their DC-9-10s until RSVM requirements went into effect in 2005. NW did not want to go to the expense of adding equipment on the the DC-9-10s.
NW also send DC-9-30s to the desert pretty liberally whenever an incident or major maintenance issue was discovered. There was one involved in a fairly minor ground incident, but it just was not worth it to repair so it was taken out service permenantly (whereas if it was a newer aircraft it certainly would've been repaired)
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