- 175 units 737-800, value: 15 600 million USD at list prices.
- CMF 56 engines
- Ryanair fleet would then be +400 by the end on 2018
- some 75 will replace older frames, the rest "will drive new growth of Ryanair"
- Ryanair still evaluating 737 MAX
leftyboarder From Turkey, joined Apr 2008, 656 posts, RR: 1 Reply 3, posted (3 months 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 15741 times:
Wow... Congrats to both parties. Isn't EU air traffic more or less mature now? Can it support this much growth by FR without us seeing a few more Euro carriers go buh-bye?
Wolbo From Netherlands, joined Mar 2007, 458 posts, RR: 1 Reply 4, posted (3 months 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 15617 times:
Must surely be one of the least surprising orders in aviation history. Although it's interesting that they are all for the old generation 737s and not for the MAX. Ryanair says they're still 'evaluating' the MAX whatever that may mean.
spantax From Belgium, joined Nov 2004, 271 posts, RR: 1 Reply 6, posted (3 months 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 15525 times:
Quoting leftyboarder (Reply 4): Isn't EU air traffic more or less mature now? Can it support this much growth by FR without us seeing a few more Euro carriers go buh-bye?
I don't know if it is mature or not, but Ryanair has a bright future, they are very good at finding niches and moving people at low prices. Who else would fly at places like Paris-Beauvais? And having a one-type only fleet helps a lot. The list of European carriers in trouble is long: Iberia, Alitalia, Air France, Brussels Airlines........ And in all these cases their problems are linked to competition from Ryanair.
EPA001 From Netherlands, joined Sep 2006, 3664 posts, RR: 36 Reply 7, posted (3 months 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 15474 times:
Well, congratulations to all involved on this order. 175 airplanes is quite a number. But nothing of this "news" is really new since the order was discussed previously here: Ryanair Set To Order 200 Boeing 737s (by captainmeeerkat Mar 11 2013 in Civil Aviation)
spantax From Belgium, joined Nov 2004, 271 posts, RR: 1 Reply 8, posted (3 months 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 15348 times:
Quoting EPA001 (Reply 8): But nothing of this "news" is really new since the order was discussed previously here
Yes, of course, discussed ad nauseam: MAX, split Airbus-Boeing, the COMAC, .... Well, speculation. Now it is confirmed officially and this entitles us, I presume, to talk once again, but this time based on facts.
flyingalex From Germany, joined Jul 2010, 1007 posts, RR: 1 Reply 9, posted (3 months 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 15322 times:
Quoting Wolbo (Reply 5): Must surely be one of the least surprising orders in aviation history. Although it's interesting that they are all for the old generation 737s and not for the MAX. Ryanair says they're still 'evaluating' the MAX whatever that may mean.
It means they don't like the price.
Price is also why they went for the old model. Boeing were looking for a way to keep the line busy until the - obstensibly greatly improved - MAX becomes available, so they probably offered a decent discount to move those frames and keep their cashflow up.
Public service announcement: "It's" = "it is". To indicate posession, write "its." Looks wrong, but it's correct grammar
KarelXWB From Netherlands, joined Jul 2012, 2433 posts, RR: 6 Reply 10, posted (3 months 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 15321 times:
Not unexpected at all, but still congratulations to Boeing and Ryanair.
Quoting spantax (Thread starter): - Ryanair fleet would then be +400 by the end on 2018
- some 75 will replace older frames, the rest "will drive new growth of Ryanair"
Only 75 replacements, sound like FR has some big expansion plans.
Quoting Farzan (Reply 6): Why not MAX for Ryan? Or can we expect an additional big MAX order soon?
There could be many reasons:
- Better price for the NG
- No MAX delivery slots before 2018
- 1 type aircraft = lower maintenance costs
- etc
Azure From France, joined Dec 2012, 234 posts, RR: 0 Reply 13, posted (3 months 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 14861 times:
Quoting spantax (Reply 7): The list of European carriers in trouble is long: Iberia, Alitalia, Air France, Brussels Airlines........ And in all these cases their problems are linked to competition from Ryanair.
As for AF, I believe the SNCF (French Railways) and its extensive high speed train network is a stronger competitor than FR since they have hurt AF's core market (ie their domestic network) far more than the Irish carrier... No other airline in Europe has to face this kind of competition, or at least, to the same extend...
KarelXWB From Netherlands, joined Jul 2012, 2433 posts, RR: 6 Reply 14, posted (3 months 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 14864 times:
About the MAX:
“We needed this order to fill the gaps left by the likes of Iberia in Spain and SAS in Scandinavia as the network airlines concentrate on long-haul and feeder services,” the CEO said by telephone. “We could be looking at 100 or 200 more when we decide on the Max, depending on how much the market opens up.”
"Boeing is delighted that Ryanair has announced a commitment today to order 175 Next-Generation 737-800s for the airline's fleet expansion. When finalized, the agreement will be worth $15.6 billion at list prices and will be posted to the Boeing Orders & Deliveries website as a firm order."
Too expensive?
Too new? It is clear that FR does not love surprises: keep it simple and well known.
Too much range? FR longest route is almost certainly STN-TFS (Stansted - Tenerife Sur, Canarias), i.e. 3000 km, but the average is, what? 1,300 km? The 6,000-7,000 km range of MAX would be unnecessary.
And, anyhow, I am sure FR is going to find a trick (galleys, seats, bins, I don't know) to get a lighter plane than the present 737-800.
sandyb123 From UK - Scotland, joined Oct 2007, 894 posts, RR: 0 Reply 18, posted (3 months 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 14302 times:
Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 15): "Boeing is delighted that Ryanair has announced a commitment today to order 175 Next-Generation 737-800s for the airline's fleet expansion. When finalized, the agreement will be worth $15.6 billion at list prices and will be posted to the Boeing Orders & Deliveries website as a firm order."
So this isn't an order then. It's a commitment. Like I would go to the guitar and say I would like to buy a guitar but I'd like to now negotiate on the price if I bought 3 guitars.
If so then this is another non-news press release from the media hungry FR.
BA777 From United Kingdom, joined Jun 2001, 2141 posts, RR: 8 Reply 19, posted (3 months 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 14163 times:
Quoting KL911 (Reply 11): True, but if you have a base with 100% MAX planes this will not be a factor anymore.
Tricky, as all the aircraft get rotated around all the bases as certain bases can only do certain levels of maintenance.
Also easier for crew training to keep the NG, no need for new sims, training courses, extra human resources doing line checks etc for crews onto the max given there are around 3000 pilots at this time.
Probably not, FR is quite a wealthy airline. But why order something more expensive with much longer delivery times when you can order something almost as good but for a lower price and much shorter delivery times.
Quoting spantax (Reply 16): Too new? It is clear that FR does not love surprises: keep it simple and well known.
That shouldn't be a problem. FR ordered their first 45 738's at March 9th 1998, the 737NG was very new at that time and was only in commercial service for a few weeks.
Quoting spantax (Reply 16): Too much range? FR longest route is almost certainly STN-TFS (Stansted - Tenerife Sur, Canarias), i.e. 3000 km, but the average is, what? 1,300 km? The 6,000-7,000 km range of MAX would be unnecessary.
TFS-BLL is the longest at the moment, TFS-BLL is 5h25m and BLL-TFS 5h15m
'Every year donkeys and mules kill more people than plane crashes'
Ferroviarius From Norway, joined Mar 2007, 179 posts, RR: 0 Reply 25, posted (3 months 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 12890 times:
Quoting Azure (Reply 13): As for AF, I believe the SNCF (French Railways) and its extensive high speed train network is a stronger competitor than FR since they have hurt AF's core market (ie their domestic network) far more than the Irish carrier... No other airline in Europe has to face this kind of competition, or at least, to the same extend...
Good afternoon,
in one of the latest editions of La Vie du Rail I read about OuiGo, SNCFs newest "no frills TGV". If the concept succeeds and will be copied in other countries, specifically FRG, Italy and Spain, this could induce more rail travellers and less air travellers on a number of important routes.
chiad From Norway, joined May 2006, 931 posts, RR: 0 Reply 26, posted (3 months 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 13098 times:
Quoting zkojq (Reply 21): Interesting to think that an order for 175 aircraft isn't even the largest aircraft order of the week.
Interesting to think that this is actually one of the smallest orders of the year since it's ... not an order at all ... just a commitment.
Great way to get some publicity though. Most media reports that I have read so far miss this fact that it's just a commitment.
aamd11 From UK - Wales, joined Nov 2001, 1040 posts, RR: 1 Reply 27, posted (3 months 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 12177 times:
Quoting Bthebest (Reply 12): 'the purchase will, the airline claims, be the "largest ever" aircraft order by a European carrier.'
....except the $22 billion order from Norwegian last summer for 222 aircraft
Never let facts get in the way of a press release.
Besides, they could always define "European" in the political (ie. EU) rather than geographical sense...
goosebayguy From United Kingdom, joined Sep 2009, 241 posts, RR: 0 Reply 29, posted (3 months 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 10872 times:
Ryanair have done a great deal here. Commiting to buying up Boeings remaining production before the MAX thus gaining a good price but also enabling the opportunity to upgrade some or most of the order to MAX nearer the date! This order now piles on the pressure to EZY who simply have to order more aircraft in order to compete on a level playing field.
Boeing Commitments are more or less firm orders especially when Boeing makes a press release on it. There are just few little things that still needs addressed with the contract before being signed. However, once it is signed, It seems that Boeing is not making additional press releases on it or at least not ones in person.
Stitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 26966 posts, RR: 83 Reply 31, posted (3 months 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 9901 times:
Quoting sandyb123 (Reply 18): So this isn't an order then. It's a commitment. Like I would go to the guitar and say I would like to buy a guitar but I'd like to now negotiate on the price if I bought 3 guitars.
It's more like you go to the guitar store, decide you want three guitars, pick the three out, agree on the price for each, then put down a deposit so they are not sold to another party while you run to the bank to get the rest of the cash.
We've seen Letters of Intent and Memorandums of Understanding events announcing large orders that were later firmed. Orders placed by Chinese airlines are a common example.
And we certainly have examples of where a firm order proved to not be a guarantee the customer wouldl take delivery.
spantax From Belgium, joined Nov 2004, 271 posts, RR: 1 Reply 34, posted (3 months 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 1947 times:
Quoting BD338 (Reply 34): Luv or hate 'em, FR is one huge money making machine. 100M passengers a year, only just behind the entire LH group!
That's the point. And when you take a look at their route map it is obvious that there are still a lot of places where they could take foot:
- roughly speaking, the whole East Europe. Of course, this is more or less Wizz Air territory, but FR covers only one city in Bulgaria (Plovdiv) and not Sophia. And no flights at all to Serbia (Serb workers in Germany) on only one in Croatia, etc. And then they have the opportunity to open up Ukraine or Moldova.
- North Africa. Tunis (workers in Italy and France) and Algeria. If they could do it with Morocco, why not in these two countries?
- And then other odd places not yet covered in the heart of Europe. For instance, Lissabon (yes, EasyJet turf, but...). Of course, Spain and France seem to be saturated, but not Germany. And, for instance, Linz, Austria, has only one route (Stansted), which is odd for a 200 000 inhabitants centre with a lot of industry.
Thus, the 100 million mark it is not as crazy as could appear at first sight.
JimJupiter From Germany, joined Sep 2011, 38 posts, RR: 0 Reply 35, posted (3 months 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 1812 times:
Quoting flightsimer (Reply 31): Boeing Commitments are more or less firm orders especially when Boeing makes a press release on it. There are just few little things that still needs addressed with the contract before being signed.
Isn't it a bit of a risk to announce a deal before that "few little things" are sorted out, especially when MOL is involved?
flyingalex From Germany, joined Jul 2010, 1007 posts, RR: 1 Reply 36, posted (3 months 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 1802 times:
Quoting spantax (Reply 35): That's the point. And when you take a look at their route map it is obvious that there are still a lot of places where they could take foot:
Quoting spantax (Reply 35): - roughly speaking, the whole East Europe. Of course, this is more or less Wizz Air territory, but FR covers only one city in Bulgaria (Plovdiv) and not Sophia. And no flights at all to Serbia (Serb workers in Germany) on only one in Croatia, etc. And then they have the opportunity to open up Ukraine or Moldova.
I'm sure Ukraine and Moldova will happen in the future, but for the time being Ryanair do not have the traffic rights. Open Skies agreements are planned, but they have not happened yet. This is also why Wizzair has to operate a separate local subsidiary for their Ukraine operations.
They have three destinations in Croatia already (ZAD, PUY and RJK), but do not serve them year-round. Croatian demand is very seasonal.
However, for most of these markets, Wizzair was there first and offers better service for a similar price. Ryanair will have a tough time there.
Quoting spantax (Reply 35): - North Africa. Tunis (workers in Italy and France) and Algeria. If they could do it with Morocco, why not in these two countries?
No traffic rights. Morroco has an open-skies agreement with the EU, Tunisia and Algeria do not.
Public service announcement: "It's" = "it is". To indicate posession, write "its." Looks wrong, but it's correct grammar
kaitak From Ireland, joined Aug 1999, 11999 posts, RR: 36 Reply 37, posted (3 months 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 1413 times:
Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 25): "Ryanair's O'Leary says he expects to sign 737 Max deal by end of this year, but still wishes aircraft had 10 more seats."
The Max-9 has around 18 extra seats, but that brings the total up to 207 seats (above the point at which they'd need to add an extra cabin crewmember; they might also have to add extra c/c with the extra emergency exits, so the Max-9 might not be altogether attractive.
Maybe this will be a key focus for the internal evaluation group. Can't see FR being willing to hold the capacity at 199 seats ... unless they get -9s at the same price as -8s?
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