KarelXWB From Netherlands, joined Jul 2012, 2316 posts, RR: 6 Posted (3 months 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 19395 times:
"KLM Royal Dutch Airlines today presented its new World Business Class (WBC) cabin interior, featuring the new full-flat seat. KLM aims to accentuate the at-home feeling for Business Class customers and that calls for a new cabin interior. In this way, KLM is responding to its customers’ needs and wishes."
First up for redecoration are KLM’s fleet of 22 Boeing 747-400s. The number of seats in World Business Class will be reduced from 42 to 35 aboard the Boeing 747-400. KLM has chosen the Diamond Seat manufactured by B/E Aerospace.
FriendlySkies From United States of America, joined Aug 2004, 4015 posts, RR: 5 Reply 4, posted (3 months 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 18962 times:
I'm kind of surprised they'd go with the current generation of seats, versus something like AA is putting in the 773ERs, with aisle access from every business seat.
Bad move in my opinion, this was an opportunity to leap frog the competition instead of just catching up.
azjubilee From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 3562 posts, RR: 29 Reply 6, posted (3 months 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 18670 times:
I think it looks great, the added aubergine and brown are a nice complement to the traditional KLM blue. I am a little disappointed that they didn't go with aisle access for all pax. Mentioned earlier that KLM isn't looking to be a trend setter... well, this trend has already be set. Their very close partner DL, for example is well under way in providing aisle access to every customer in business class.
alitalia744 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 4670 posts, RR: 45 Reply 8, posted (3 months 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 18480 times:
A nice addition/change to the KLM WBC product compared to the mix of old-generation (A332/77E) and AF's NEV3 (77W/A333) seat currently in use.
Not surprisingly they didn't go all-aisle access given the potential reduction in seat-count that would be required (in fact they're already reducing the ratio).
KL is a people hauler. A mid-tier airline that likes to stay on trend, but not ahead of it.
AF is the AFKL group premium airline and AF's new seats will be announced soon for both Affaires and La Premiere. Both will offer full-flat, all pax aisle access.
krisyyz From Canada, joined Nov 2004, 1576 posts, RR: 0 Reply 11, posted (3 months 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 18098 times:
Very nice! I recently flew WBC on KL and while the seats were comfortable, they did seem a bit dated and the recline setting did feel a bit awkward. I'm not surprised at the reduction of WBC seats, the flight I was on (AMS-YYZ) saw numerous economy passengers, including myself , upgraded to WBC as that class wasn't nearly full, yet numerous economy passengers were on stand-by for the flight.
joost From Netherlands, joined Apr 2005, 3131 posts, RR: 4 Reply 12, posted (3 months 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 16795 times:
Quoting FriendlySkies (Reply 5):
I'm kind of surprised they'd go with the current generation of seats, versus something like AA is putting in the 773ERs, with aisle access from every business seat.
The reason is simple: the 747 and it's unique cabin floor plan (upper deck) make that some modern seats cannot be placed economically.
The B/E Diamond enables for 20 seats in the upper deck (and 15 in the nose section).
The reverse herringbone (JPA / Weber Cirrus), in the DL 747 configuration, only seats 14 pax in the upper deck (and 14 in the nose section). That's a 7 seat difference.
The Reverse Herringbone is very nice for the 777 and A330, and it's also good for the 747 main deck, but it's doesn't fit well in single-aisle configurations.
The traditional (Virgin, AC, CX old config) herringbone does have an efficient floor plan (CX: 22 in the upper deck) for the 747, but has mixed reviews: some love it, some hate it.
LH also used the B/E Diamond for new business class, also for 2-2 on the upper deck.
DL will use the B/E Diamond on it's TATL/Transcon 757s, in a 2-2 configuration also.
Indeed, the config lacks direct aisle access for non-window seats, but I really like the overall view (colors, etc).
AA777223 From United States of America, joined Feb 2006, 1115 posts, RR: 7 Reply 13, posted (3 months 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 16638 times:
Quoting alitalia744 (Reply 9): AF is the AFKL group premium airline and AF's new seats will be announced soon for both Affaires and La Premiere. Both will offer full-flat, all pax aisle access.
My goodness! That is a sad state of affairs. If AF is the "premium" airline, they desperately need to step up their game. Angled lie-flats, 10 abreast Y in 777s and dirty planes hardly scream premium.
330lover From Belgium, joined Jul 2008, 515 posts, RR: 1 Reply 14, posted (3 months 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 16551 times:
Don't like the very light blue of the 'shells'.
It reminds me of the 'toothpaste' colour of AC. While I think it looks nice as a livery, it does not as interior colour.
Or is it just me, am I seeing colours wrongly?
Britten Norman Islander VP-FBR on Falkland Islands. THAT'S FLYING!
ardian From Netherlands, joined Oct 2000, 517 posts, RR: 0 Reply 15, posted (3 months 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 15822 times:
For people who are wondering how much you CAN design with a new C-class cabin, since you're pretty restricted inside an airplance cabin and KLM already decided they'd choose the Diamond B/E Aerospace seat), here is an Interview from New York Times with designer Hella Jongerius. I really like how KLM is very proactive in using Dutch designers to enhance their product (Marcel Wanders for the dinner service, Blond Amsterdam for other catering packaging, photographer Carli Hermés for KLM's inflight boutique).
Great job by Hella Jongerius and her team. I really like the color palette and chosen materials. It suits KLM perfectly; no radical design change as if they are trying to be a next SQ, LH, BA or EY. They know they aren't the leader of the pack and instead they are just consistantly doing in what is right for them. They have a solid soft product and now they can match that with this better and improved C-class. Indeed no direct aisle access; next to what Joost in reply #13 already mentioned, KLM's C-class in their 744's is only situated in the A-section and upperdeck. That gives it less (and a smaller) space to work with.
factsonly From Montserrat, joined Aug 2012, 337 posts, RR: 0 Reply 18, posted (3 months 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 14754 times:
Quoting 76er (Reply 6): Company policy. A few years ago KL upper management decided it would be better for KL to be a 'smart follower' instead of a trendsetter.
Well, perhaps KLM is a trendsetter.... but not in cabin fittings & trimmings, but in a very different field....like the sustainability of aviation.
See this quote taken from Flight Global.
'The cooking oil biofuel KLM is burning is "very energetic" and flies better than kerosene, KLM Director Eurlings says, but what really counts is that "this step shows that KLM is a frontrunner in making air transportation more sustainable".
alitalia744 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 4670 posts, RR: 45 Reply 20, posted (3 months 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 14439 times:
Quoting AA777223 (Reply 14): My goodness! That is a sad state of affairs. If AF is the "premium" airline, they desperately need to step up their game. Angled lie-flats, 10 abreast Y in 777s and dirty planes hardly scream premium
AF is changing. Expect an announcement very soon for the refit of Affaires (full flat, full access, full privacy).
La Premier is also being redesigned to bring the on-the-ground experience at CDG to the air with a customized version of a new suite seat.
As for Y, you get what you pay for.
Not sure when you last flew AF, but the planes on the inside don't match the dirt on the outside. All of my flights in the last few years have been spotless with service that was better than anything I've gotten in the states and far better than the -223 airline offers!
I last flew AF a few years ago & both the soft & hard product were not great (in my opinion) As I live in the north of England most of the choice I have for flying to the East is with KLM & AF, (now the same company) & both can be very expensive.
I have found the regional product very good but the long haul very hit & miss, however I will be once again flying AF in about 8 hours from the North East of England to Japan (it is a codeshare with JAL) with the long haul with JAL.
I have to admit I did get a very good price so we will see what they are like now
usdcaguy From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 764 posts, RR: 2 Reply 23, posted (3 months 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 13800 times:
I have flown the new KL WBC with flat beds and absolutely loved it. The staff were very professional, and the seat was much more comfortable than some other lie-flats. KL seems more than a people-hauler to me; they are very nice on regional services and really make an effort to deliver a consistent long-haul product. If I paid for my own business class tickets, I would likely use them on a regular basis.
panamair From United States of America, joined Oct 2001, 4595 posts, RR: 25 Reply 24, posted (3 months 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 13868 times:
Quoting alitalia744 (Reply 21): Not sure when you last flew AF, but the planes on the inside don't match the dirt on the outside. All of my flights in the last few years have been spotless
Not for me...been on a few AF 77W and 332s in the last six months in J, and the seats/surrounding areas were definitely not spotless. Some parts of the seats/fittings were also quite run down...
And the AF CDG operation, even though improved from a few years ago, continues to be a cumbersome, frustrating, and illogical experience, even for someone like myself who is forced to go through CDG quite a bit...
Viscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 21679 posts, RR: 23 Reply 26, posted (3 months 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 14271 times:
Quoting 777way (Reply 22): why did KL do away with F class?
.
Very low demand to/from AMS. Dutch companies are quite strict at avoiding extravagance and needless expense. F class cabins were often close to empty (or full of upgrades and employees). Made much more sense to offer a decent J class product, eliminate F class and offer more Y seats that generate revenue.
PC12Fan From United States of America, joined Jan 2007, 2262 posts, RR: 5 Reply 28, posted (3 months 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 14018 times:
Quoting SASMD82 (Reply 17):
A very typical KLM move. Don't be too inventive, just follow your competitors, that's good enough.
That's smart IMO. Trying to be the innovator in this business can bite you in the you know what. Following what works with a slight "rebranding" does make sense. Might not be very innovative, but it keeps them in play.
Just when I think you've said the stupidest thing ever, you keep talkin'!
Hooverman From Netherlands, joined Oct 2011, 52 posts, RR: 0 Reply 29, posted (3 months 1 day ago) and read 13688 times:
Quoting 76er (Reply 6): Company policy. A few years ago KL upper management decided it would be better for KL to be a 'smart follower' instead of a trendsetter.
That's fine but they should be a bit quicker to follow in the future
I think the design of the cabin is pretty nice though. The blue is not overwhelming.
PH-BFA From Netherlands, joined Apr 2002, 559 posts, RR: 1 Reply 30, posted (3 months 1 day ago) and read 13377 times:
Interesting statement made by Erik Varwijk (KLM); the 787 and A350 will have a different, newer generation business class seat which will be developed together with air france, instead of the new seats that were unveiled today.. First 787 is planned for delivery (KLM) in 2015, so that is pretty soon for yet another business class seat update!
motorhussy From New Zealand, joined Mar 2000, 2814 posts, RR: 10 Reply 31, posted (3 months 23 hours ago) and read 12472 times:
Taken them a long time to come up to the standard of most of their competitors and peers but good on them, looks great. I'd not have flown their former business class but would now.
Azure From France, joined Dec 2012, 224 posts, RR: 0 Reply 32, posted (3 months 22 hours ago) and read 12473 times:
Quoting alitalia744 (Reply 8): KL is a people hauler. A mid-tier airline that likes to stay on trend, but not ahead of it.
AF is the AFKL group premium airline and AF's new seats will be announced soon for both Affaires and La Premiere. Both will offer full-flat, all pax aisle access.
Quoting AA777223 (Reply 13): My goodness! That is a sad state of affairs. If AF is the "premium" airline, they desperately need to step up their game. Angled lie-flats, 10 abreast Y in 777s and dirty planes hardly scream premium.
Although I do like KLM for their no frill, efficient product, and as a FF on both AF and KL, I have to disagree with you : AF is defintely more premium than KL : No F, no free champagne in Y, older fleet and poorer IFE (so far), on KL. Even the transit experience at CDG is more "premium" than at AMS : more luxury shops, better services and lounges at CDG T2 for F and J passangers.
To be honest, I have to add that the catering on KLM has improved and is now almost on par with AF in Y (but not in J).
As for the 10 abreast Y in 777s, AF is not the only airline to maximize their floorspace : EK, which is often considered as a premium airline as well, but may not by you, also uses this configuration.
And in any case, I'd rather fly with AF or KL than with any US carrier !
Back to topic, I am quite happy with this new J on KL : it was needed. KL might not be a trend setter, but they do the job and they do it well. Congrats to them !
AF185 From Hong Kong, joined Sep 2012, 118 posts, RR: 0 Reply 33, posted (3 months 21 hours ago) and read 12028 times:
Quoting Azure (Reply 32): Quoting AA777223 (Reply 13):
My goodness! That is a sad state of affairs. If AF is the "premium" airline, they desperately need to step up their game. Angled lie-flats, 10 abreast Y in 777s and dirty planes hardly scream premium.
Quoting Azure (Reply 32): Although I do like KLM for their no frill, efficient product, and as a FF on both AF and KL, I have to disagree with you : AF is defintely more premium than KL : No F, no free champagne in Y, older fleet and poorer IFE (so far), on KL. Even the transit experience at CDG is more "premium" than at AMS : more luxury shops, better services and lounges at CDG T2 for F and J passangers.
To be honest, I have to add that the catering on KLM has improved and is now almost on par with AF in Y (but not in J).
As for the 10 abreast Y in 777s, AF is not the only airline to maximize their floorspace : EK, which is often considered as a premium airline as well, but may not by you, also uses this configuration.
And in any case, I'd rather fly with AF or KL than with any US carrier !
Back to topic, I am quite happy with this new J on KL : it was needed. KL might not be a trend setter, but they do the job and they do it well. Congrats to them !
In addtion to that, AF has reveiled its new Business Class seat in last January (retrofit to start in 2014). They have selected the Zodiac Sicma Cirrus seat, one of the best Business Hard products in the market.
klkla From United States of America, joined Jul 2004, 808 posts, RR: 0 Reply 34, posted (3 months 18 hours ago) and read 10405 times:
Quoting Azure (Reply 32): I'd rather fly with AF or KL than with any US carrier !
While you are certainly entitled to your opinion, not everyone feels the same way. I have gone out of my way to avoid AirFrance even though it has been the lower price option in business class numerous times over the last couple years because of their surly staff and inferior hard product and have (and do) choose a lowly American airline called Delta because of their superior customer service, superior hard product and good catering.
I'm getting sick and tired of people on this board bashing American airlines all the time when in reality the supposedly 'superior' non-American airlines are worse on many fronts. Other than having slightly better food than DL AirFrance sucks in almost every other metric.
AA777223 From United States of America, joined Feb 2006, 1115 posts, RR: 7 Reply 36, posted (3 months 12 hours ago) and read 7212 times:
Quoting alitalia744 (Reply 20): Not sure when you last flew AF, but the planes on the inside don't match the dirt on the outside. All of my flights in the last few years have been spotless with service that was better than anything I've gotten in the states and far better than the -223 airline offers!
Quoting panamair (Reply 24): Not for me...been on a few AF 77W and 332s in the last six months in J, and the seats/surrounding areas were definitely not spotless. Some parts of the seats/fittings were also quite run down...
I admittedly haven't flown AF in several years. I have spent quite a bit of time in France over the years, and certainly plenty of time at CDG. I agree that AF is more premium than KL, I just think it is sad that if one must select an airline to call more premium it is AF.
The comparison to American carriers and specifically AA is completely out of scope. Apart from my user name, that was never brought into relevence in my comments. It is not difficult to be more premium than many US carriers, and I did not attempt to claim otherwise. I do have to say, since you brought it up. The new KL J, which is essentially the current UA BizFirst (nee CO BF), looks nice, but I would take the new AA J on the 77Ws over it. If it has any bearing, I am formerly an AA, now UA FF.
All that to say, back to the topic I originally intended to address, in my very humble opinion Air Chance...err, Air France needs to step up their game if they are the more premium airline.
Jano From Slovakia, joined Jan 2004, 814 posts, RR: 4 Reply 37, posted (3 months 11 hours ago) and read 6635 times:
Quoting klkla (Reply 34): I'm getting sick and tired of people on this board bashing American airlines all the time when in reality the supposedly 'superior' non-American airlines are worse on many fronts. Other than having slightly better food than DL AirFrance sucks in almost every other metric.
Between AF and DL for a Y flyer I have to agree with you. DL is the better one. I'll be doing my 86th TATL crossing in May.
chuchoteur From France, joined Sep 2006, 700 posts, RR: 0 Reply 38, posted (3 months 9 hours ago) and read 5468 times:
Quoting Azure (Reply 32): Even the transit experience at CDG is more "premium" than at AMS : more luxury shops, better services and lounges at CDG T2 for F and J passangers.
...you have to be kidding, right?
At CDG the sterile transit areas are a nightmare, if you have a one hour connection you have to run for miles. The shops are absolutely rubbish (aside from Laduree for the macarons, I don't use them. Buying mont blanc pens and hermes silk squares aren't part of my transit plans!). The lounges (particularly in the 2F pier) are constantly overrun and the snacks available there are dreadful.
I'm platinum on skyteam and I consistently pick AMS over CDG. I get J up to AMS (instead of La Navette at a J fare but with Y service), on a 1h connection I manage to get a good half hour in the crown lounge (hot food, the soup is quite good, separate smoking area, comfortable armchairs with no problems to find a quiet space). I quite like the shops at AMS, I even bought my GoPro camera there.
To be fair AF suffer at the hands of ADP. The terminals are badly designed so the lounges are artificially space-constrained, and are quite noisy due to all that glass and metal architecture...
777way From Pakistan, joined Dec 2005, 5274 posts, RR: 4 Reply 39, posted (3 months 9 hours ago) and read 5369 times:
Quoting TheAviator380 (Reply 35): Too dull to me ! I love to see bright colours (Thai or Kingfisher) or light colours (LH/EK) in any cabin. This is neither of it.
Agree, the only blue I like are the shades of sea near tropical beaches, or swimming pools that too a tad greenish, not a big fan of the lighter blues otherwise, to sleep with head stuck into that colour is not a pleasent feeling, yes colours can be that powerful.
I would have prefered the seat shells to be that blond wood look like on Swiss.
anstar From Netherlands, joined Nov 2003, 4872 posts, RR: 6 Reply 41, posted (3 months 8 hours ago) and read 4781 times:
Quoting FriendlySkies (Reply 4): Bad move in my opinion, this was an opportunity to leap frog the competition instead of just catching up.
But that is not KL's business model... they are a hub carrier with a small local market. So by default they already need to charge cheaper fares to attract pax to transit through Amsterdam.
Therefore....
Quoting alitalia744 (Reply 8): KL is a people hauler. A mid-tier airline that likes to stay on trend, but not ahead of it.
They are a people hauler... that is by no means the worst and would actually rank as one of the better ones. They are definately on trend - especially with their marketing, social media etc and this seat is a welcome improvement.
Not all Diamond Seats look alike... Here is a quote from Business Traveler Online:
“It is true that other airlines have the Diamond seat, but our new seat is not the same. Our seat is better than Lufthansa’s, for instance. Lufthansa’s seat is 1.98m long, while ours is 2.07m. Our seats are parallel, not in a “v” position, and our seat back screens are 17 inches, not 15 inches.”
Glareskin From Netherlands, joined Jun 2005, 1284 posts, RR: 1 Reply 45, posted (2 months 3 weeks 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 2232 times:
Quoting by738 (Reply 19): not keen on the hospital colour light blue
Quoting AFGMEL (Reply 44): I am sorry to say this, but zzzzzzzz.
I agree with above statements. However the light color makes the cabin very open. Maybe a print on the light blue would work.
But it is about time they do this. Honestly I am avoiding KL on long haul flights because of the bad seats mostly unless the schedule is so much better. UA to the US or several connections in FRA and ZRH to other destinations makes me come to my destinations in better conditions. When will the complete long-haul flight be equipped? Because then I will consider KL again.
There's still a long way to go before all the alliances deserve a star...
76er From Netherlands, joined Mar 2007, 412 posts, RR: 1 Reply 46, posted (2 months 3 weeks 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 1816 times:
Quoting Glareskin (Reply 45): When will the complete long-haul flight be equipped?
The project will be completed by 2015. The T7's are schedelud to be modified after the 747's and the 330's last. As was mentioned before, the 789's that will be joining KL from 2015 will be equipped with yet another seat.
Upon completion a similar project will be started to modernize the Y cabins.
rwy04lga From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 2250 posts, RR: 7 Reply 47, posted (2 months 3 weeks 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 1576 times:
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While you are certainly entitled to your opinion, not everyone feels the same way. I have gone out of my way to avoid AirFrance even though it has been the lower price option in business class numerous times over the last couple years because of their surly staff and inferior hard product and have (and do) choose a lowly American airline called Delta because of their superior customer service, superior hard product and good catering.
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