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San Diego's Lindbergh Field, An Extreme Airport?  
User currently offlineL0VE2FLY From United States of America, joined Dec 2012, 1532 posts, RR: 0
Posted (1 year 4 months 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 17836 times:

On a recent "The World's Most Extreme Airports" show, I was surprised to see my hometown's airport, San Diego's Lindbergh field listed at #10. I know SAN is not your average airport for a major US city with its single, relatively short runway, proximity to downtown San Diego and high terrain in Point Loma, but to be ranked the 10th. most extreme airport in the world was something I didn't expect. So what do you think, is SAN really that challenging for pilots?

96 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineusctrojan18 From United States of America, joined Feb 2013, 92 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (1 year 4 months 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 17771 times:

You basically answered your question why it is extreme. It is challenging for pilots because 27 doesn't have ILS. So yes, it is extreme

User currently onlineas739x From United States of America, joined Apr 2003, 6086 posts, RR: 24
Reply 2, posted (1 year 4 months 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 17622 times:

Many, if not all, airlines require additional training for SAN operations. Now granted this sometimes is nothing more then a short video, the airport is a little bit of a challenge. It's what makes Lindbergh so unique.

Quoting usctrojan18 (Reply 1):
It is challenging for pilots because 27 doesn't have ILS

I'd have to disagree with this. Commercial pilots have flown hundreds of visual approaches and a true pilot doesn't need a ILS. There is an RNAV approach anyhow that is virtually the same thing. The issue is the combinations of terrain, obstacles and the often forgotten marine layer that can cause mild haze.



"Some pilots avoid storm cells and some play connect the dots!"
User currently offlineflyby519 From United States of America, joined exactly 7 years ago today! , 1124 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (1 year 4 months 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 17586 times:

Quoting usctrojan18 (Reply 1):
It is challenging for pilots because 27 doesn't have ILS. So yes, it is extreme

Any approach not preceded by vectors to final for an ILS qualifies as an emergency in my book  



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User currently offlinemaxpower1954 From United States of America, joined Sep 2008, 1071 posts, RR: 7
Reply 4, posted (1 year 4 months 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 17527 times:

I've flown 727s and A320s out of SAN for years (like 25) and have never understood what all the fuss was about. And neither do the fellow pilots at my airline.

LGA and DCA by any measure are more of a challenge on an everyday basis than SAN ever will be.


User currently offlineUA787DEN From United States of America, joined Dec 2012, 420 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (1 year 4 months 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 17511 times:

Quoting maxpower1954 (Reply 4):
LGA and DCA by any measure are more of a challenge on an everyday basis than SAN ever will be.

I think it got such a high ranking for a few reasons.
1) The PSA 727 Crash
2) Its the 2nd busiest 1-runway airport in the world
3) They keep building new things around it. Flying lower than the parking garage is interesting.
4) It gets so much hype about how they need a replacement

It honestly isn't super challenging, but it gets so much attention its hard to miss.


User currently offlinepnwtraveler From Canada, joined Jun 2007, 2225 posts, RR: 12
Reply 6, posted (1 year 4 months 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 17443 times:

We booked late for a convention in San Diego. That meant instead of getting a room at the Marriott or Westin we had to book into the Ramada. My room looked towards the Harbor and Navy Base. My boss and his wife were on the other side of the building and up one floor. I still laugh when my bosses wife said she could lie in bed and wave at the people in the planes going past the window. Well a slight exaggeration but not by much. The airport location is not much above sea level and below the level of the hotel. That is part of a reason the as well the airport is a challenge to land at.

User currently offlineredzeppelin From United States of America, joined Feb 2012, 545 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (1 year 4 months 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 17251 times:

I flew PHX-SAN in about 2003 on HP. They announced as we were departing the gate at PHX that it would be the first flight commanded by a newly promoted captain. I could see that it worried a few of the pax around me. I would have forgotten the flight by now if not for the fact that it ended with my first ever go-around after we apparently came in a little high. I saw a few people hanging on really tight on the second approach. Anyway, I enjoy telling that story whenever the topic of SAN's challenges comes up.


Happiness is rediscovering a forgotten L-1011 in your flight log.
User currently offlinePassedV1 From United States of America, joined Oct 2012, 220 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (1 year 4 months 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 16880 times:

Quoting maxpower1954 (Reply 4):

LGA and DCA by any measure are more of a challenge on an everyday basis than SAN ever will be.

+ one.

This is such an exageration. Top ten in California sure...in the world, I doubt it. SAN should be disqualified simply because it's in so-cal so no matter how bad the airport is, the weather never really gets THAT bad. SNA is worse in my book and we haven't even left the state yet. TVL, EGE, MSO, BTM, and just about any airport AS flies to in Alaska besides ANC and FAI.

Maybe top ten worst with wide-body service...then maybe.


User currently offlineTrnsWrld From United States of America, joined May 1999, 917 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (1 year 4 months 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 16748 times:

Single straight runway located in sunny California. Yeah I'm gonna go ahead and say this airport being ranked anywhere remotely close to even 100 extreme airports is a bit of a stretch  

User currently offlineL0VE2FLY From United States of America, joined Dec 2012, 1532 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (1 year 4 months 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 16410 times:

Quoting usctrojan18 (Reply 1):
You basically answered your question why it is extreme. It is challenging for pilots because 27 doesn't have ILS. So yes, it is extreme

My question is: How could SAN be considered the 10th. most extreme in the world?! Just a few ranks behind LUA, SXM, SBH & HKG (Kai Tak), so no I didn't answer my question!


Quoting maxpower1954 (Reply 4):
LGA and DCA by any measure are more of a challenge on an everyday basis than SAN ever will be.

Why?


Quoting UA787DEN (Reply 5):
1) The PSA 727 Crash

Actually they did mention this crash.


Quoting UA787DEN (Reply 5):
2) Its the 2nd busiest 1-runway airport in the world

What's the busiest?


Quoting pnwtraveler (Reply 6):
We booked late for a convention in San Diego. That meant instead of getting a room at the Marriott or Westin we had to book into the Ramada. My room looked towards the Harbor and Navy Base. My boss and his wife were on the other side of the building and up one floor. I still laugh when my bosses wife said she could lie in bed and wave at the people in the planes going past the window.

The Ramada must be a favorite for fellow a.netters visiting San Diego.


Quoting PassedV1 (Reply 8):
This is such an exageration. Top ten in California sure...in the world, I doubt it. SAN should be disqualified simply because it's in so-cal so no matter how bad the airport is, the weather never really gets THAT bad. SNA is worse in my book and we haven't even left the state yet. TVL, EGE, MSO, BTM, and just about any airport AS flies to in Alaska besides ANC and FAI.

   EGE was on the list too.


User currently offlineAAR90 From United States of America, joined Jan 2000, 3465 posts, RR: 47
Reply 11, posted (1 year 4 months 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 16295 times:

Quoting maxpower1954 (Reply 4):

I've flown 727s and A320s out of SAN for years (like 25) and have never understood what all the fuss was about. And neither do the fellow pilots at my airline.

IMHO, just plenty of "press" about how "difficult" it is. Nothing more, nothing less.



*NO CARRIER* -- A Naval Aviator's worst nightmare!
User currently offlineMax Q From United States of America, joined May 2001, 4359 posts, RR: 19
Reply 12, posted (1 year 4 months 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 15798 times:

Seriously, since when did not having an ILS make for a challenging airport ?!


San Diego is a delight to fly in and out of. So it's a non precision approach, if you can't handle that as an Airline Pilot stay home and watch Doctor Phil.



The best contribution to safety is a competent Pilot.
User currently offlineFCAFLYBOY From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2006, 587 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (1 year 4 months 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 15008 times:

Quoting L0VE2FLY (Reply 10):

London Gatwick by a mile


User currently offlineNDiesel From United States of America, joined Mar 2011, 81 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (1 year 4 months 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 14494 times:

Quoting FCAFLYBOY (Reply 13):
London Gatwick by a mile

I thought STN came in at 2nd in terms of largest airport with single runway ops? I couldn't find the number of flight movements for SAN, but STN had 143 511 last year and more passengers that SAN.



Delta MD-11 JFK-CDG - Upon sunrise I fell in love with Aviation
User currently offlinemaxpower1954 From United States of America, joined Sep 2008, 1071 posts, RR: 7
Reply 15, posted (1 year 4 months 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 14059 times:

Quoting L0VE2FLY (Reply 10):
Quoting maxpower1954 (Reply 4):
LGA and DCA by any measure are more of a challenge on an everyday basis than SAN ever will be.

Why?

Both LGA and DCA have short 7,000 to 7,500 foot runways or less like 33 at DCA 5,500 which either terminate into a body of water or onto an expressway. The River Visual to 19 at DCA involves following the Potomoc River exactly to avoid the restricted airspace, with a low altitude turn to final that would get me fired if I tried it anywhere else. LGA has the Long Island Expressway Visual to 31 which is another barnstormer manuver involving a low altitude turn over the 1964 World's Fair Unisphere. Throw in strong, gusting winter crosswinds and marginal braking action reports and you are operating under a reduced margin of safety, that's for sure. And all SAN has is a parking garage? In good weather with light winds most all the time. and no ice on the runway?


User currently offlineUA787DEN From United States of America, joined Dec 2012, 420 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (1 year 4 months 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 13744 times:

Quoting NDiesel (Reply 14):

SAN carried only 200,000 fewer pax last year, and will overtake STN this year. SAN also had around 200,000 movements, far more than STN. LGW beats everybody with double the pax and 250,000 movements.


User currently offlineweb500sjc From United States of America, joined Sep 2009, 726 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (1 year 4 months 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 12972 times:

Just to be fair SAN is technically the worlds busiest single runway airport because LGW has 2 runways, realistically it is LGW because one runway will always be unusable.

Quoting AAR90 (Reply 11):

But there are other airports I would give in SOCAL that are more dangerous like SNA, AVX, BUR



Boiler Up!
User currently offlineB737900 From United States of America, joined Aug 2010, 173 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (1 year 4 months 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 12576 times:
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My memory of SAN goes back to the mid-sixties and US Navy/Marine Corps boot camp. The departures and arrivals would go right over us and boy did we all want to be on those departures. Back then it was mostly PSA flying B727's (I believe I'm correct in that). The most interesting aspect, even back then, was the close proximity of highrise office buildings. SAN seemed like it was "downtown" even then.


Sounds like a Beaver on floats..........we're saved!!
User currently offlineCaspian27 From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 381 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (1 year 4 months 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 12074 times:

I would think most airline pilots wouldn't consider SAN extreme. A little out of the ordinary maybe, yes. An airport like ASE however is extreme and somehow never makes it onto these lists.


Meanwhile, somewhere 35,000 ft above your head...
User currently offlineRayChuang From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 7985 posts, RR: 5
Reply 20, posted (1 year 4 months 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 11948 times:

The biggest problem with SAN is that steep approach to Runway 27, regardless of that parking structure at the end of the runway. I have concerns that one of these days, a pilot may misjudge the landing approach and something really horrible will occur.

User currently offlineBarney Captain From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 924 posts, RR: 13
Reply 21, posted (1 year 4 months 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 11901 times:

Quoting L0VE2FLY (Thread starter):
relatively short runway,

.......and to add on to what others have said - at 9400', SAN is hardly "short". But the myth continues to propagate.



...from the Banana Republic....
User currently offlinezbbylw From Canada, joined Nov 2006, 1982 posts, RR: 6
Reply 22, posted (1 year 4 months 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 11787 times:

SAN is not that big of a deal. I like flying into it because the view is nice and it's warm in SAN but otherwise nothing too exciting. Yes 27 does not have an ILS but many airports that regularly see planes bigger than DH8s also have Non-precision approaches. While most places do it is certainly not a big deal if you have to fly a LOC approach! Especially with how we fly approaches now flying a constant decent angle... You treat the MDA like you would a DH on an ILS, decent down to an altitude and either land or go missed. No step downs etc... Passed the faf.


Keep the shinny side up!
User currently onlineB777LRF From Luxembourg, joined Nov 2008, 1300 posts, RR: 3
Reply 23, posted (1 year 4 months 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 11733 times:

Whenever you see a TV showe called "world's worst/best/biggest ..." and that show was produced in the US, it's almost guarenteed 99% of the contents will have a heavy US bias, and will thus be worldly in name only. Same league as the "World Series" of baseball.

I could probably name you 100 airports that are far more challenging than SAN, but neither of them are in the US and so they didn't pass the litmus test for this show.



From receips and radials over straight pipes to big fans - been there, done that, got the hearing defects to prove
User currently offlineStarAC17 From Canada, joined Aug 2003, 3354 posts, RR: 9
Reply 24, posted (1 year 4 months 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 11542 times:

Quoting L0VE2FLY (Thread starter):
On a recent "The World's Most Extreme Airports" show, I was surprised to see my hometown's airport, San Diego's Lindbergh field listed at #10. I know SAN is not your average airport for a major US city with its single, relatively short runway, proximity to downtown San Diego and high terrain in Point Loma, but to be ranked the 10th. most extreme airport in the world was something I didn't expect. So what do you think, is SAN really that challenging for pilots?

When I look at that list I wonder why WLG didn't make it because where it is located and the conditions it deals with and IIRC you need a certification to fly there.

Also considering the nickname for Wellington is Windy Welly  .

Quoting Caspian27 (Reply 19):
I would think most airline pilots wouldn't consider SAN extreme. A little out of the ordinary maybe, yes. An airport like ASE however is extreme and somehow never makes it onto these lists.

I don't think many would consider SXM extreme either.



Engineers Rule The World!!!!!
25 Tomassjc : There's a wee bit of low ceiling threat during those "May/June Gloom" mornings, foggy fall nights, and during the occasional winter rains. But doesn'
26 Post contains images SANMAN66 : That parking structure has been there for the past 30 years. The FAA would never have allowed to let the parking garage to be built in that spot if i
27 Silver1SWA : I agree, but there are some pilots who will list SAN as their most challenging airport. A friend sat next to a WN pilot recently and he asked him wha
28 bohica : The TV show called SXM extreme not because of the approach over a beach, but because of people hanging on to the fence when an airplane powers up for
29 cubastar : I'm with you Max! I really had a good time flying into SAN and landing on 27. Two, Three and Four holers. Remember the hotel (with restaurant on top)
30 maxpower1954 : Like my Navy friends say, coming aboard the boat on a nice sunny day is huge fun. Same for the River Visual 19, Expressway Visual to 31 or the VOR 13
31 TheRedBaron : San Diego is a nice city, has great views when you land and is quirks, I bet Mexico City is more challenging, and since Ill be landing in Paro (Buthan
32 maxpower1954 : I can also tell you from personal experience that MEX is far more challenging than SAN to operate out of.
33 DLSANMan : Well I have flown in and out every week for the past 10 years, sometimes more than 6x a week. In all of those years only 6 go arounds and 2 of those w
34 Post contains images L0VE2FLY : . Why is the second runway not used? For a 737/A320 it isn't, but for a widebody at MTOW, it is. . Fog is the only weather problem SAN has and I don'
35 us330 : I've lived in both NYC and DC, and flew primarily out DCA and LGA. Loved flying in on both approaches. This is anecdotal, but once sat next to an AA
36 Post contains links ADent : It is on the list because it looks dramatic. Pictures of large aircraft flying below buildings shows well. These shows are heavy on visuals and light
37 as739x : I agree. I was just casually referring more to the hazing marine layer that often makes depth perception a challenge while executing a visual approac
38 johns624 : 1. The caprtain might not of even been flying that leg. 2. I'm sure the captain had many years experience in the right seat.
39 SANMAN66 : I've heard that the reason LGW's second runway is not used is because both runways are too close together to be used simultaneously. So most of the t
40 rickabone : I know it's VERY rare (happens maybe a couple hours every year on average), but I think landing on either 01L or 01R at SFO would be MUCH more extreme
41 Silver1SWA : 1. Yes, that is a likely possibility. 2. Absolutely the captain had many years in the right seat. That is fact. Which means it probably wasn't his fi
42 zbbylw : You're right MEX is more challenging. Due to the high density altitude and transition to final. I have only flown a narrow body into there but I am s
43 filejw : Actual I would classify it as one of the more fun airports except when you are limited by T/O to the east .Flown Dc9 to 744 to SAN over last 30 plus y
44 Post contains links and images PITrules : I find BUR to be much more 'extreme' than SAN. The preferred landing runway is only 5,800 feet and is used by aircraft as large as A-300s. When cleari
45 usctrojan18 : Yea, I've always wanted to see a real video of those approaches because it reminds me of a sort of USA Tegucigalpa, but I could never find one (excep
46 Boeing717200 : My thought as well. Poor minima, displaced thresholds on that 5800 ft runway, non precisions to the longer runway, precipitous terrain surounds and y
47 Viscount724 : While LGW has the taxiway that can be used as a runway, the number of times it has to be used due the primary runway being closed for maintenance or
48 Post contains links maxpower1954 : This will get you started. Bonus: it's a Convair 990! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6aqI1q9-lGk
49 lightsaber : Which is why I think it makes the list. Seems logical. Thank you for the numbers. 22.5% more movements is enough to wake everyone up... Eventually it
50 Barney Captain : Weight restrictions happen on every take-off, every day. A 9400' sea level runway that has some climb gradient restrictions because of Point Loma, st
51 cornutt : Aircraft flying in and out of YTZ (Toronto Island) routinely fly below the level of the CN Tower's observation deck. It was rather bizarre the first
52 SANMAN66 : The buildings are not as close as they appear. they're at least two to three miles away from the approach pattern. On one occasion, I was arriving on
53 alggag : I think MDW is a bit extreme, at least when it's rainy or snowy.
54 tootallsd : I have to disagree. Until November 2011, I lived in a 22 story condo on the highest point of downtown San Diego. I just used Google Earth for an unsc
55 by738 : it certainly is the only BA outstationto require a widebody ground vehicle escort to the end of the runway!
56 Goldenshield : Thunderstorms and wind, too.
57 Alias1024 : As others have already said, SAN is not an extreme airport. There are far more challenging airports in the United States, much less world wide. If any
58 MountainFlyer : Certainly. I'd throw in SUN as well.
59 Post contains images Barney Captain : In SAN????? Now that I've never seen.
60 Alias1024 : True. Forgot about SUN. Agreed that it's pretty rare to see thunderstorms at SAN. Rarely some of the winter Pacific storms kick off a few thunderstor
61 Goldenshield : It's not an everyday occurrence, but neither is fog. Note that I said that in reply to "Fog is the ONLY weather problem." Terrain is also an issue he
62 Silver1SWA : Whoa...fog is much more common! I can count on one hand, in my 8 years working at SAN, how many times thunderstorms have actually hit SAN. They are v
63 Alias1024 : Indeed. All that and an ILS that's often useless due to tailwinds make OTH a real pain in the rear. That is an impressive bridge across the bay thoug
64 Goldenshield : I hope that I'm just mis-reading that... Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying it ISN'T a problem. I'm just squashing a loaded statement.
65 B737900 : I am assuming that you are not including Southeast Alaska in your west coast list. That area is the extreme west coast. But if you were to include th
66 Boeing717200 : Thunderstorms over the mountains, Santa Ana's and waterspouts off the coast of Southern CA are not uncommon. This would also apply to the LA Basin ai
67 Post contains images Alias1024 : Err, yeah. I guess I didn't think of reading it literally as flying into the bridge. OTH is a beautiful place when the weather is nice. Kinda neat br
68 Barney Captain : Wow, what a stretch this thread has taken. Every airport in the world is impacted by weather - every. The very infrequent TRW's over the mountains ha
69 Boeing717200 : I'm not arguing that it is an extreme airport. I simply stated a fact in response to this comment you made about the existence of thunderstorms: If y
70 Post contains links Maverick623 : She didn't just get blown onto the beach, she went headfirst into the raised concrete curb. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1CGBJe_Yu-k
71 PassedV1 : Yes, there is terrain, yes there is weather, yes it's busy at times, yes, yes, yes...but the subject of this thread isn't "does SAN have challenges to
72 Silver1SWA : I think what gets overlooked is that the name of the show is "Most Extreme". That, to me, is a vague title. I've heard many refer to that top 10 as "
73 Barney Captain : Correct. Flying out of there for the last 35 years and living there for the past 20, my observation is TRW activity within 10nm of SAN is virtually n
74 Goldenshield : My radar says otherwise. But then again, I don't live there, so I can't possibly know what's going on... I had 2 lightning strikes in one day back in
75 Silver1SWA : Like I said above, in my 8 years of working at SAN, I can count on one hand how many times the airport has actually experienced a thunderstorm.
76 Post contains links Barney Captain : Yup. But don't tell Goldenshield - he's convinced it's more of an issue. I don't see a mean average of 3 a year worth even mentioning - right near th
77 Goldenshield : Um, no. Don't put words in my mouth. You're changing the context of what I've said, and spinning it. ALSO, there's more than just storms at/over the
78 Silver1SWA : I think you're reaching a bit. Let's face it. The number one, and practally the only weather issue SAN has is visibility. The random storm here and t
79 Goldenshield : Now I think you're reaching a bit there.
80 Post contains images Silver1SWA : Haha maybe, but... There has only been one storm that I can think of in my time working here that caused SAN to basically shut down. There has been o
81 Boeing717200 : You're also trying to spin my words. I said over the mountains which isn't San Diego and is in an area where the dry air from the desert bumps ups ag
82 Caspian27 : Good list, but I would throw windshear on every single mountainous airport on this list. I have no experience at IYK,MMH,ACV, OTH or EAT. But the oth
83 Post contains images L0VE2FLY : They may happen but we never hear about them, unlike BA's flights. Loved the views up there, YTZ is kinda a mini SAN. I don't even remember when was
84 usctrojan18 : This whole debate is kind of pointless since the History Channel isn't gonna send a crew to a different airport, and then replace the film of SAN with
85 L0VE2FLY : Of course they're not gonna change it, they don't have to, considering the fact that 95+% of the population can't differentiate between a Boeing &
86 UAL747DEN : I was going to say that DEN really isn't all that extreme but I bet its one of the only airports where you can pretty much guarantee you will see sev
87 DualQual : Another thread bites the dust to the tune of trying to be the smartest guy in the room.
88 L0VE2FLY : What are you talking about?! Folks always try to prove themselves right everywhere and all the time, it's not only on this thread / forum / website.
89 BoeingGuy : PSA 182 could have happened at any airport in pre-TCAS days, and it often did. That's a poor example of sensationalism. It's like calling GOL an unsa
90 Post contains images SANMAN66 : Agreed! Back after the crash happened there was a push to have the airport moved (Miramar), of course some people blamed the crash on the location of
91 Post contains images L0VE2FLY : Even in the post TCAS days there have been 3 major mid-air collisions in less congested airspaces than SAN, ES 611 / V9 2937 and SV 763 / K4 1907, pl
92 BoeingGuy : At least K4 did not have TCAS so that's not a correct example. What's different about those other two accidents? You''re forgetting some key points I
93 ADent : It is not required. It is becoming affordable with ADS-B. The deadline for ADS-B is 2020. The service is not fully useful until basically all aircraf
94 PassedV1 : I took LOVE2FLY as referring to an era...as in the era since TCAS has been developed. The fact that we have still had several mid-airs, notwithstandi
95 BoeingGuy : ADS-B itself does not yet have a collision avoidance function. Even with airplanes that will soon display ADS-B-in data on the Flight Deck, it's stil
96 Post contains images L0VE2FLY : I just said these crashes happened in the post TCAS years, NOT because of TCAS failure. It's often human errors to blame in most accidents in aviatio
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