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FAA Grounds B787: Part 14  
User currently offlineLipeGIG From Brazil, joined May 2005, 11429 posts, RR: 58
Posted (1 year 5 months 5 hours ago) and read 43006 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
FORUM MODERATOR

As the previous one become too big, we are opening a new thread for discussions

Link to thread 13 : FAA Grounds B787: Part 13 (by 777ER Mar 9 2013 in Civil Aviation)

As the majority of the replys in the last thread were off tech/ops nature, please keep this thread for any news/updates on the progress for getting the Dreamliner back flying again. If you wish to discuss the battery issues/fire/APU etc then discuss them in B787 Grounding: Tech/ops Thread Part 2 which can be found here B787 Grounding: Tech/ops Thread Part 2 (by 777ER Mar 9 2013 in Tech Ops)


WARNING: Due to thread 9 going off topic quickly and turning into a 'battle ground', the moderators will be watching this thread frequently and ANY offending/rule breaking posts will be removed. Please respect each others right to have their opinion



Enjoy the website


New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
275 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinebellancacf From United States of America, joined May 2011, 152 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (1 year 5 months 3 hours ago) and read 42794 times:

Did any test flights take place?

User currently offline7BOEING7 From United States of America, joined Oct 2012, 1528 posts, RR: 8
Reply 2, posted (1 year 5 months 1 hour ago) and read 42630 times:

Quoting bellancacf (Reply 1):
Did any test flights take place?

Not yet.


User currently offlineKarelXWB From Netherlands, joined Jul 2012, 11179 posts, RR: 33
Reply 3, posted (1 year 4 months 4 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 42410 times:

SP-LRC was deiced yesterday but did not fly.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/microvolt/8581796192/in/photostream



Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity. And I'm not sure about the universe.
User currently offlineblrsea From India, joined May 2005, 1421 posts, RR: 3
Reply 4, posted (1 year 4 months 4 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 42229 times:

Experts weigh in on Boeing's solution. Looks like external experts are satisfied with Boeing's proposed solution. Also reports on the tests conducted so far.

787 battery fix gets thumbs up from aviation experts

Quote:

...
Independent experts view the fail-safe part of Boeing’s proposed 787 Dreamliner fix — a heavy stainless steel box that will contain any heat, flames or flammable vapors from the lithium ion battery — as a solid solution.
...
But to John Goglia, a former member of the National Transportation Safety Board and now an outspoken critic of the FAA and Boeing, it’s this box that makes Boeing’s solution acceptable.

“No matter what happens to the battery now, it won’t be a problem because it’s contained,” Goglia said. “It’ll probably satisfy the FAA to get the airplane back in the sky.”
...
...
Other tests are more severe, including one lab test that involves igniting propane inside the containment box, causing an explosion that increases the pressure to three times what could be expected in the worst-case scenario.

Boeing has already done a successful run-through of this test. A video shows the 1/8th-inch-thick steel walls of the box bulge out in slow motion. But they hold fast and regain their shape.
...
...
“It’s easy to calculate the amount of energy in the battery and it’s easy to calculate the amount of energy the box can absorb,” said Janicki. “Mathematically, to know whether it will work is a fairly precise science.”

An aviation-safety engineer, who asked for anonymity because he spoke without the approval of his employer (not Boeing), agreed that the proposed battery fix “looks pretty good.”

Though he’s critical of how the FAA appears to have rubber-stamped Boeing’s original battery design, he said the revised battery system should be approved and certified to fly.
...
..
He said the fix, which adds 150 pounds to the weight of the airplane — more than doubling the weight of the two main batteries involved — completely negates the weight savings that had been expected from using lithium ion instead of nickel cadmium batteries.
...
...


User currently offlineJAAlbert From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 1571 posts, RR: 1
Reply 5, posted (1 year 4 months 4 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 41718 times:

Quoting blrsea (Reply 4):
Independent experts view the fail-safe part of Boeing’s proposed 787 Dreamliner fix — a heavy stainless steel box that will contain any heat, flames or flammable vapors from the lithium ion battery — as a solid solution.

So the box will contain any failure - but it doesn't sound like this fix gets to the issue as to why the batteries overheated in the first place, does it? The original batteries from what I read were failing at a high rate -- what is or has been done to correct that problem? I'm sure the airlines don't want to be replacing these batteries every few months.


User currently offlinekanban From United States of America, joined Jan 2008, 3472 posts, RR: 27
Reply 6, posted (1 year 4 months 4 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 41628 times:
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Quoting JAAlbert (Reply 5):
The original batteries from what I read were failing at a high rate --

depends on what you call failing.. As I recall of those removed (and called failures by some) 90% were because that had been drawn down to a point where they were locked out for recharging on the plane. the causes were predominately ramps/cleaning crews using battery power instead of ground power.. because a seriously drawn down battery is more unstable than one discharged in normal use, it must be removed to recharge and reset the limiters. There was a breakdown of the other 10% however I don't recall what they were


User currently offlineNAV20 From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 9909 posts, RR: 36
Reply 7, posted (1 year 4 months 4 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 41561 times:

Quoting JAAlbert (Reply 5):
but it doesn't sound like this fix gets to the issue as to why the batteries overheated in the first place, does it? The original batteries from what I read were failing at a high rate -- what is or has been done to correct that problem?

As I understand it, JAAlbert, the overheating (just the two incidents so far) is thought to have been caused by 'spreading' short-circuits due to the cells being too close together and uncontained. Boeing and Yuasa have therefore moved the cells further apart, and also added insulation etc. between them.

As far as I know, all previous failures (and I agree that there were a lot of them) occurred on the ground; and the problem was that some batteries could not be recharged 'in situ' and therefore had to be replaced; not a matter of fires etc.. The proposal there appears to be to adjust the appropriate recharging rates and also the levels to which the batteries discharge and recharge; I don't know enough physics fully to understand that, but get the impression that it's mainly a matter of 'calming everything down.' All wiring arrangements etc. have also been reviewed.



"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 30855 posts, RR: 86
Reply 8, posted (1 year 4 months 4 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 41283 times:
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Quoting JAAlbert (Reply 5):
So the box will contain any failure - but it doesn't sound like this fix gets to the issue as to why the batteries overheated in the first place, does it?

No, because why they overheated in the first place isn't known. Rather than keep the fleet grounded until a final cause is determined, this new box will allow any failure to be tolerated in the interim. Once a cause is found, additional remediation will be taken to prevent or reduce the chances of it happening again.



Quoting JAAlbert (Reply 5):
The original batteries from what I read were failing at a high rate -- what is or has been done to correct that problem?

The maximum discharge level is being raised to a level that allows the batteries to still be charged aboard the plane if that level is reached.


User currently offlinelightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 12981 posts, RR: 100
Reply 9, posted (1 year 4 months 4 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 40848 times:
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Quoting Stitch (Reply 8):
Once a cause is found, additional remediation will be taken to prevent or reduce the chances of it happening again.

To expand, Boeing has also reduced the chance of a battery fire by:
1. Reducing how much the battery may be drained and still recharged on aircraft
2. Reducing how much the battery may be charged (in effect, really cutting back on the number of watt hours that battery may put out)
3. Reducing the battery charge harshness. (I assume by slowing the charge and putting a ramp up or other means into the battery charging profile.)

Quoting Stitch (Reply 8):
The maximum discharge level

One of three steps.   I know you knew, but I felt your post needed to be expanded upon. Each of the above reduces the chance of a battery fire. The three in combination are belts, suspenders, and an elastic waist in combo.

Lightsaber



Societies that achieve a critical mass of ideas achieve self sustaining growth; others stagnate.
User currently offlinesweair From Sweden, joined Nov 2011, 1817 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (1 year 4 months 4 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 40102 times:

I hope for the airlines that this will be OK for FAA but not as a final solution. First treat the illness, then develop a remedy, that should be a logical path.

However many here think that this is the final solution, I don´t think even B is satisfied by flying with unknown causes in its batteries. However to redo chemistry and get that tested, accepted and certified would take too long for the airlines to accept. Just do this interim and aim to remake over time and that update should be free of charge to any airline flying the 787. That way it will keep flying and finally have a better cell chemistry in the end.


User currently offlineNAV20 From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 9909 posts, RR: 36
Reply 11, posted (1 year 4 months 4 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 39749 times:

Pretty informative (and up-to-date) press article here:-

http://www.aviationweek.com/Article....l/AW_03_25_2013_p35-561498.xml&p=1



"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
User currently offlinefrancoflier From France, joined Oct 2001, 3741 posts, RR: 11
Reply 12, posted (1 year 4 months 4 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 39711 times:

Quoting JAAlbert (Reply 5):
I'm sure the airlines don't want to be replacing these batteries every few months.

Especially now that it has become a lot more complicated to do a battery swap...

Is there any word on whether this will affect ETOPS capability yet?

The safety issue is pretty much taken care of, but the battery reliability issue is still an unknown.
If I understood correctly, these batteries are critical ETOPS items.



Looks like I picked the wrong week to quit posting...
User currently offlineAeroWesty From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 20479 posts, RR: 62
Reply 13, posted (1 year 4 months 4 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 39643 times:

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 11):
Pretty informative (and up-to-date) press article here:-

Quote:
New details of the redesigned battery system also reveal why Boeing has remained confident of FAA approval for the fix. The battery enclosure, which is designed to prevent a fire erupting rather than simply containing it, is made of 0.125-in.-thick stainless steel. A 1-in.-dia. titanium vent pipe connects the back of the enclosure to the outer skin of the aircraft where new exit holes—one for each battery—will be cut through the composite skin. The vent pipe is designed to evacuate vaporized electrolytes from the battery should any, or all, of the eight cells in the unit fail. In the event of a cell failure, a small pressure port in the rear of the enclosure is designed to rupture under pressure from the building vapor. The vapor will then exit the aircraft via the vent pipe.

Interesting stuff. Earlier posts here suggested that new holes in the fuselage weren't the best option.



International Homo of Mystery
User currently onlinescbriml From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2003, 12462 posts, RR: 46
Reply 14, posted (1 year 4 months 4 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 39419 times:
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Quoting sweair (Reply 10):
However many here think that this is the final solution

Maybe because Boeing has indicated as much?



Time flies like an arrow, but fruit flies like a banana!
User currently offline2175301 From United States of America, joined May 2007, 1049 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (1 year 4 months 4 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 39268 times:

Quoting scbriml (Reply 14):
Quoting sweair (Reply 10):
However many here think that this is the final solution

Maybe because Boeing has indicated as much?

Actually, I believe that Boeing will change to Titanium boxes in the future instead of 1/8" SS before they change the battery chemistry.

That would probably allow a wight reduction in the box by at least 1/2.

For now (and as an immediate fix), SS was readily available in sufficient quantities and is very easily fabricated. Titanium needs to have better scheduling of material availability (especially certain alloys) and can have fabrication challenges that take some time to perfect the best way.

Note that Boeing used Titanium tubing for the vent pipe which I believes provides a clue to how important weight is. Such tubing in several alloys is readily available. So is SS tubing - which would work as well (but weighs more).

Have a great day,


User currently offlineKaiarahi From Canada, joined Jul 2009, 2979 posts, RR: 28
Reply 16, posted (1 year 4 months 4 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 38242 times:

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 11):
Pretty informative (and up-to-date) press article here:-

Not so up to date. The full details were actually made public by Boeing 10 days ago.

http://787updates.newairplane.com/Bo...-solution-presentation-English.pdf

[Edited 2013-03-24 07:44:23]


Empty vessels make the most noise.
User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 30855 posts, RR: 86
Reply 17, posted (1 year 4 months 4 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 38056 times:
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Quoting francoflier (Reply 12):
Is there any word on whether this will affect ETOPS capability yet?

ETOPS-180 should be unaffected by these issues since you can depart with an inoperative APU battery and/or an inoperative APU. So regardless of the failure rate of the APU batteries, the 787 should still meet the requirements for ETOPS-180 operation.

The 787 has yet to be certified for ETOPS-240 or ETOPS-330. In order to attain such certification, either the failure rate of the APU battery will have to be at or below whatever the requirements is or Boeing will have to modify the APU system design so that the APU can be started and operated without the APU battery.


User currently offlineKaiarahi From Canada, joined Jul 2009, 2979 posts, RR: 28
Reply 18, posted (1 year 4 months 4 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 38016 times:

Quoting Stitch (Reply 17):
Boeing will have to modify the APU system design so that the APU can be started and operated without the APU battery.

Or perhaps just operated - I haven't looked at ETOPS requirements for a while, but I believe there are some MEL configurations that require continuous APU operation (i.e. started on the ground).



Empty vessels make the most noise.
User currently offlineAeroWesty From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 20479 posts, RR: 62
Reply 19, posted (1 year 4 months 4 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 37988 times:

Quoting Kaiarahi (Reply 16):
The full details were actually made public by Boeing 10 days ago.

Drilling additional holes in the fuselage is a new detail not disclosed in the Boeing presentation (at least not blatantly apparent).



International Homo of Mystery
User currently offlineblrsea From India, joined May 2005, 1421 posts, RR: 3
Reply 20, posted (1 year 4 months 4 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 37972 times:

How different is it in drilling holes in CFRP fuselage compared to aluminium ones? Will it have any effect on the CFRP strength?

User currently offlinefrancoflier From France, joined Oct 2001, 3741 posts, RR: 11
Reply 21, posted (1 year 4 months 4 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 37969 times:

Quoting Stitch (Reply 17):

Thanks!



Looks like I picked the wrong week to quit posting...
User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 30855 posts, RR: 86
Reply 22, posted (1 year 4 months 4 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 37932 times:
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Quoting blrsea (Reply 20):
How different is it in drilling holes in CFRP fuselage compared to aluminium ones? Will it have any effect on the CFRP strength?

There are already plenty of holes and ducts in the structure, so that should not be an issue.


User currently offlineAeroWesty From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 20479 posts, RR: 62
Reply 23, posted (1 year 4 months 4 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 37928 times:

Quoting blrsea (Reply 20):
How different is it in drilling holes in CFRP fuselage compared to aluminium ones?

B787 Grounding: Tech/ops Thread Part 2 (by 777ER Mar 9 2013 in Tech Ops)

Quote:
For a hole in the 787, even if you use the sharpest cutting tool, you will always expect cracks and micro delamination at the cut edges. Sealing will prevent moisture from getting into the crack (and freeze causing additional delamination). However, most likely they will put some sort of bolted and/or bonded doubler around the cutout so any crack growth would be arrested by the bolt clamp-up.



International Homo of Mystery
User currently offline7BOEING7 From United States of America, joined Oct 2012, 1528 posts, RR: 8
Reply 24, posted (1 year 4 months 4 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 37914 times:

Quoting Kaiarahi (Reply 18):
Or perhaps just operated - I haven't looked at ETOPS requirements for a while, but I believe there are some MEL configurations that require continuous APU operation (i.e. started on the ground).

That is true, however, I believe it was stated in a previous thread (somewhere) that Mike Sinnett indicated loss of the APU battery would cause the APU to shut down, so that appearss not to be an option.


25 Kaiarahi : Slide 15: "dedicated vent line" The answer is in TechOps thread one (Tom) - titanium doublers.
26 AeroWesty : Yes, I saw that, but to me, as a layman, it doesn't say whether that's a new hole or repurposing what already exists.
27 Kaiarahi : Presumably if you repurposed an existing vent, you'd need to cut a new vent for whatever was there before. Perhaps I didn't word my response very cle
28 Post contains links NAV20 : Looks like some 'hard news' about the flight test at last:- "Boeing is on the verge of flight testing the modified 787 battery system changes on Line
29 7BOEING7 : I'm sure Mr Norris has some good conections at Boeing but I doubt we'll see a customer acceptance flight on ZA272 Monday.
30 KarelXWB : I read it as LN86 will fly a customer acceptance flight profile but that doesn't mean it's an acceptance flight.
31 par13del : I take the same position as the post below. Just in case, the line from the article is listed below. "at Paine Field, Everett on 24th, and if all goe
32 7BOEING7 : It's only a customer acceptance profile if the the customer is on board. Some follow the Boeing B-1 profile some don't, so which customer profile wil
33 hivue : What Sinnett said and the NTSB wrote was pretty darn clear, so "misstated," perhaps, but not "misinterpreted." It would have been nice if one the jou
34 Post contains links and images KarelXWB : ZA272 is starting its engines. http://twitter.com/mattcawby/status/316211212348170241
35 Post contains links 7BOEING7 : Here we go, flight plan filed for LOT ZA272. http://flightaware.com/live/flight/BOE272
36 Post contains links KarelXWB : Live stream here: http://www.kirotv.com/s/news/live-event/
37 KarelXWB : More info: - This will be the first of at least two test flights. This one for Boeing...basically a functional check. Then the one for the FAA. - Boei
38 Post contains images KarelXWB : On the move.
39 Post contains images KarelXWB : Rejected takeoff test completed.
40 7BOEING7 : Actually the RTO (Rejected Take Off) is done at the end of the flight. The test they were doing was to confirm normal operation of the engines at ful
41 litz : I think a lot of people are missing that we have two issues at hand : 1) the battery failed 2) the battery containment failed The first is not necessa
42 Post contains links KarelXWB : "As part of its certification ground tests, Boeing will push a lithium-ion battery on 787 ZA005 to destruction" http://twitter.com/jonostrower/status/
43 kanban : thanks for the clarification that 3500 posts over 14 threads had failed to communicate.
44 davidho1985 : Keep on charging the batteries untill they are over-heat and then burn to test the new battery boxes???
45 bikerthai : There is two problems with using an existing vent. One as you mentioned, would require repurposing an exisiting vent. Typically exisiting vents are m
46 KarelXWB : Few things on this one: 1) As been discussed in one of the first grounding threads, it is very common to replace aircraft parts 2) ANA replaced about
47 bellancacf : @Karel #46: "ANA replaced 100 - 150 batteries ..." That _sounds_ like an awful lot of batteries. Is it more than would be replaced on a 767 or 777 ove
48 Stitch : Ground staff were running them down by using them longer than the book called for. Yes, in that it points out 787 ground crew either need better trai
49 bellancacf : @Stitch #48: Did this maltreatment do something to the batteries that in some (i.e., 2) cases led to the two notorious incidents? Were maltreated batt
50 Post contains images kanban : Not!.. I believe the manuals are specific, however who knows what the customer airlines tell their crews, or even contract crews at various airports.
51 Stitch : No, because the batteries were run down to the point that they triggered the safety systems and could no longer be charged aboard the plane. They wer
52 bellancacf : Then we do have a mystery, haven't we?
53 kanban : No, you may want a mystery, however this has been explained over and over and is not an issue for returning to the air.. it may be an issue for airli
54 14ccKemiskt : Do you know that nobody complained or are you guessing? The number of battery replacements indicate that each of ANA's 787 had a battery replaced at
55 KarelXWB : Well, we don't know for sure but this is literally what an ANA spokesman said: It's common. It's just one of those parts that needs to be replaced of
56 sankaps : It should be enough to lift the grounding perhaps. But likely not enugh to let the aircraft have extended ETOPS of any kind, as the aircraft would ha
57 bellancacf : @kanban #53: I didn't make myself clear -- sorry. The "mystery" I was thinking about is just what caused those two batteries to go off the reservation
58 kanban : The FAA and other regulators will approve ETOPS after the appropriate testing is done, and engines and structures are deemed robust enough. They may
59 sankaps : How will the flight crew know what the exact nature of the fire is, and how many cells are involved or will get involved? Isn't Boeing standard instr
60 twiga : Your overall line of inquiry is very sound. And with such frequent battery failures for what ever reason has to raise questions. If this was your aut
61 sankaps : Sure, but how would they be sure that additional cells would not start burning as well? I am sure most if not all pilots would want to divert / land
62 kanban : in a word ----- yes
63 KarelXWB : So what kind of fix should Boeing develop to regain ETOPS? I don't believe in switching to another type of battery, but I'm not sure if it will ever
64 SonomaFlyer : The fix was completed. Boeing and the airlines will need to demonstrate safe flying at ETOPS 180 for a year or so to qualify for ETOPS 240 considerat
65 JHwk : While the on-board battery incinerator system will limit possible cascading failures, the real change is more that the batteries will not be used as
66 twiga : I was trying to answer the first part of your question #59 and believe you got it, but just to further clarify. If one cell sets off it would produce
67 7BOEING7 : Everybody seems to think the pilots will have intimate knowledge of what is happening inside the "magic box" but we have heard nothing about any chan
68 sweair : I find it absurd so many think the engineers working on the problem are such morons not thinking about monitoring the new solutions etc. Why is it the
69 Post contains images scbriml : Their first attempt wasn't so great, was it?
70 sweair : I do not think B put as many engineers on the first solution, they rather outsourced it to Thales iirc. That then came back to bite them in the.. But
71 Post contains images Stitch : The APU battery on JL8 was in thermal runaway for some time, and yet the damage was not such that would have affected safe operation, much less insur
72 hivue : So if the FAA certifies Boeing's fix, will they attach some new procedural strings should the crew get a battery failure indication? Presumably the s
73 twiga : I agree we have'nt heard anything about changes to providing the crew with more informative battery information, but then again these are details tha
74 Revelation : Above we're being told the product is being mis-used akin to leaving the headlights on too long... Seems then we'll have even more frequent swaps sin
75 par13del : If I read correctly they are also lowering the threshold where the battery has to be removed from the a/c for re-charging, time will tell whether its
76 rcair1 : I believe what they are doing is providing margin between a "shutoff" and "non-rechargeable" levels. In other words, the airplane systems (on the gro
77 7BOEING7 : That would require some hardware/software changes as none of the present battery messages have procedures associated with them. The highest level of
78 Post contains images bellancacf : Don't understand. In what way an "ugly precedent"? There's now a battery with an unknown failure rate (yes, we can hope, but ...) inside a well-sealed
79 kanban : That's the way I read it.. good to see you still hanging in there. the crews are already swamped with data and adding more alerts for systems that mi
80 bellancacf : Aah. Good prioritizing. Is there a place where the crew can read up, once they've landed, on little things that have happened during the flight, like,
81 7BOEING7 : If the airplane is safe to go back in the air, creating a "Warning" message where the only procedure is to divert to the nearest suitable airport for
82 bellancacf : How about some visual indication of conditions inside the box? Do you think that something will be built into the box itself?
83 Stitch : I would think such functionality could be built into the data recorders that airlines have on their aircraft for tracking maintenance issues (I don't
84 Post contains images kanban : I think Boeing's "Flight Bag" maintenance system or what ever it's called is the place for this data.. loading up the flight data recorders puts un ne
85 Post contains images rcair1 : Thanks for that info. I was unsure if there were existing profiles/cases where a main battery failure could cause a diversion. I do NOT think adding
86 Post contains images Bogi : Happy Easter
87 twiga : What would be wrong with 150 year old steam technology like mounting a pressure guage on the containment vessel. But I am sure their monitoring syste
88 Pugman211 : Has ZA005 done its test flight yet? Thanks
89 Humanitarian : My understanding is that it would be doing a battery failure test on the ground. Have not heard if that has been completed.
90 7BOEING7 : My understanding was the only certification flight taking place was on LOT ZA272, ZA005 was only being used for ground testing of the battery.
91 Post contains links sankaps : Perhaps this was not a certification flight, but a test flight that was supposed to take place yesterday to test the power panels was postponed. See
92 7BOEING7 : It appears the ZA005 test flight is unrelated to the present grounding so it really isn't a point of discussion here--it's just another test flight.
93 sweair : They seem to test a new electrical board? Otherwise they will test the PIP2 of the GEnx engine as well.
94 Post contains links sankaps : Well, in this article http://seattletimes.com/html/busines...20671693_boeingtestflightxml.html, it says that "McNerney also said that Boeing was taki
95 7BOEING7 : Power panels sound like they could fall in that category but that probably wouldn't be available when the airplanes go back into service.
96 Stitch : ZA005 is testing revisions to the power distribution panels to address minor short-circuits that have occurred on a number of revenue flights for UA,
97 Post contains links KarelXWB : ZA272 will takeoff in about 25 minutes to test the power panels. Flight plan here: http://flightaware.com/live/flight/B...2/history/20130401/1800Z/KPA
98 Post contains links AeroWesty : A piece of encouraging news: ANA Pilots to Undergo 'Resumption' Training in Hopes 787 Returns in June
99 Post contains links KarelXWB : Another flight plan filed for ZA272. Flight is unrelated to battery testing/certification. http://flightaware.com/live/flight/BOE272
100 Post contains links and images NAV20 : Looks like we'd better not hold our breath! This says that Boeing have a lot more testing to do yet:- "Boeing (BA) said it has finished more than half
101 TheRedBaron : 100% correct Amen... I wonder how long will it take to find out what causes the batteries to fail, and I mean the critical paths that lead to a therm
102 bikerthai : Wonder if the rest of the testing involve cycling test. If you want to simulate 5, 10, 25 years worth of actual service, even if you are accelerating
103 Post contains links KarelXWB : Boeing Engineers Standing by in Japan to Start 787 Battery Fix, source. I guess certification is imminent now.
104 Post contains images PHX787 : There was a pair of 788 sitting idle at HND today in a different area than the others, I assume these are the first to get the fix. When the first fl
105 7BOEING7 : Not everything goes through cycling tests. The container is so overbuilt compared to other parts of the airplane it is not really a concern and the b
106 SonomaFlyer : We can safely assume that once Boeing settled on the fix, they've been running battery charge/discharge tests on their ground based test bed 24/7. The
107 BoeingVista : Nope, we can't assume any of that. As for FAA directives they may depend on what comes out at the FAA public hearings as much as test results of Boei
108 Kaiarahi : Which public hearings? The FAA does not hold public hearings on ADs.
109 SonomaFlyer : Time will tell but I think we can assume these steps have been taken already. From published reports we've seen, Boeing identified several changes wh
110 twiga : I agree. Wouldn't they have to quantify these results to some statistical values, similar to what they had to do origionally for thermal runaway, if
111 hivue : Boeing has developed a certification plan for the new battery system and has submitted that to the FAA. The FAA has accepted that plan. Boeing is in
112 SonomaFlyer : I would think under the Freedom of Information Act, one could obtain this data if it is not published. We have most of the relevant details on the fi
113 Post contains images KELPkid : NTSB services the FAA in an investigative/advisory role only. If the FAA chooses to ignore the NTSB, well, there is prior precedence for that Not eve
114 Post contains images kanban : because the data may allude to proprietary design criteria, it is highly unlikely that it will be released. Of course that will start a whole new bat
115 twiga : Sorry a slight correction here that some of you may have picked up. Mathematically the engineers and scientists would have quantified these things in
116 twiga : You are probably right. But doesn't NTSB and the FAA both report to the same Boss (Sect of Transportation) and he may influence or have something to
117 Post contains images bikerthai : Yep, the qualification plan may be proprietary. The raw data from the testing is definitely proprietary althought he result (pass/faile) is definitel
118 Post contains links KarelXWB : And here we go: http://twitter.com/BoeingAirplanes/status/320220023736107008 http://flightaware.com/live/flight/BOE272
119 SonomaFlyer : Excellent, time to fly!
120 KarelXWB : The statement from Boeing:
121 b78710 : So how soon after the certification flight will the fix be certified? Anyone know how long the mods are likely to take per aircraft?
122 KarelXWB : Some say weeks, others say days. Either way, Boeing already deployed teams in Japan to install the battery and that is an indication that the paper w
123 Post contains links humanitarian : Even the Secretary of Transportation is now sounding positive. "Boeing has "good" 787 battery plan fix: official" http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/
124 b78710 : excellent news, its been a while coming
125 Pugman211 : Interesting that FR24 is showing 2 787's in the air at the same time, one being BOE272 and the other being 005 for LOT, (obviously a glitch tho)
126 Post contains links NAV20 : According to this story the flight was 'straightforward and uneventful.' "Amid gusty winds, a LOT Polish airline plane rose from a runway near the Boe
127 Post contains links KarelXWB : There is a second flight scheduled for today. Source http://kpae.blogspot.nl/2013/04/paine-field-april-5.html
128 Post contains links KarelXWB : Update.
129 seat55a : UA is scheduling domestic 787 flights for 31 May, international for 10 June -- official (but subject to change), confirmed by United Continental Holdi
130 nomadd22 : It doesn't take a month and a half to replace a battery box and upgrade charger software. What's the delay? I'd assume that Boeing would have been get
131 Kaiarahi : - Formal AD issuance process from FAA - Modification schedule (Boeing's AOG team can't retrofit 50+ aircraft and get sign-off overnight) - Crew curre
132 tugger : Perhaps a dumb question, but would a laser be better for cutting through CFRP versus other methods? I am not saying they would use it in this situati
133 Stitch : Lasers will melt the polymer and carbon fibers. High-pressure water jets would be best, I would think, but can't be used in the field, so a saw is th
134 Post contains images bikerthai : In this case, the polymer (an epoxy), a thermoset will not melt but will burn and char into ashy powder. You are thinking about thermoplastics like p
135 Post contains images KELPkid : Supposedly, the 787 and 777 share a common type rating (which I really don't agree with, but that's beside the point). Wonder how many 787 crews are
136 bikerthai : Come to think of it, can you cut a carbon fiber with a laser in the first place? bt
137 kanban : Home Deport has some excellent hole saws in diameters up to 5 inches.. so why not just use one?
138 AirlineCritic : I am an engineer, and I do not believe any engineer in their right mind would design something like this without running that test. Unless someone wa
139 Post contains links KarelXWB : ZA005 is in the air. http://flightaware.com/live/flight/B...5/history/20130409/1630Z/KBFI/KBFI
140 Post contains links discovery1 : United is planning on having their birds flying on the 31st: http://www.chicagotribune.com/busine...on-may-31-20130408,0,7389846.story
141 twiga : From what little I know about cutting CFRP from a hobbiest point of view, which might have some bearing on how they may go about making these holes.
142 Post contains links and images KELPkid : According to All things 787 (here: http://nyc787.blogspot.com/), there was a ground test of an actual fully charged battery being shorted out, and fo
143 Post contains images KELPkid : I doubt, though, that the the flying that ZA005 is doing right now has anything to do with battery testing, as many people involved have said that th
144 Post contains images twiga : I agree and was hoping for the same. I know this is a contraversial topic. I suggested or alluded to this further back in a post, and safety of the t
145 AirlineCritic : Your points made a lot of sense to me.
146 Post contains images Aquila3 : Yeah, I believe Home Depot is already in the official list of approved suppliers for the 787 program...
147 ServantLeader : Boeing doesn't bother with crisis management PR, preferring instead to bank on their industry reputation -- this is a risky strategy as that account
148 Post contains images Stitch : Yes, their sales sure are in the toilet the past 15 months... Oh, wait... Seriously, Boeing is about as "doomed" as Apple is.
149 sankaps : Don't think anyone is saying Boeing is doomed. But there is no doubt its reputation in the industry is lower than its ever been in its history. It is
150 Post contains images Stitch : And yet airlines clamor for them to launch the 737 MAX, the 787-10, and the 777X...
151 7BOEING7 : Was Airbus doomed when the Qantas engine came apart and only through the expertise of 5 or 6 pilots doing a 2 pilot job the loss of several hundred l
152 hivue : Purposely incinerating a battery while the plane is orbiting Puget Sound is not going to guarantee that nothing will ever happen over the middle of t
153 rcair1 : Why? What do you learn from an in-air test. They do not. In fact, your point that the dynamics of a blade off event are different in flight is an arg
154 Post contains images bikerthai : I think I know what you are trying to say. I think some here just take it the wrong way. True, flight testing is mostly show and tell and a final fee
155 hivue : If you're talking about flight testing in general then you are dead wrong. If you're talking about purposely burning up a 787 battery during a flight
156 sankaps : No. If you read my post carefully, you will see I wrote that while its reputation is hurt, Boeing is NOT doomed, and therefore orders would NOT dry u
157 nomadd22 : Why would someone insist on posting the same crap that's been going on for 2,000 posts?
158 AirlineCritic : The unknown unknown. A lot gets tested in the air, too, and one of the benefits of that is that you put the object under test into its normal situati
159 ServantLeader : Please note that this thread is entitled "FAA Grounds B787", not “Viva la Boeing 787”. By what rationale do you find postings regarding how this
160 Stitch : I would expect there was plenty of smoke vented out of the plane since testing the evacuation system seems to me to be one of the main reasons to per
161 sankaps : Because some people keep arguing that this "crap" is not in fact a reality.
162 Post contains links art : Qatar Airways plans to seek compensation from Boeing over the grounding of its 787s, even as the airline remains "optimistic" that the twinjet will be
163 SonomaFlyer : Discussions have already taken place, count on it. Qatar is also sorting through ordering additional Boeing a/c so the "compensation" can take the fo
164 twiga : Not quite clear what you mean by 'evacuation system' initially thought about deplaning people but now think you mean 'venting system'. The former cou
165 Post contains images rcair1 : Ahh - and there lies the path to infinite test cycles. Okay - that is the best justification I've heard. Please show me the data where Boeing has tak
166 Stitch : Another 777X launch customer?[Edited 2013-04-11 17:29:59]
167 RickNRoll : It's reputation will have taken a hit. Airlines want at least a duopoly, they would hate to have only Airbus or Beoing to go to for the planes, both
168 Post contains images rcair1 : Okay- so we have an opinion, not data. That's fine, but recognize it as what it is - opinion. I'm afraid I don't follow this train of thought - as in
169 RickNRoll : I am saying that Boeings share price won't be hit hard, it has a guaranteed market, it has competitive products to sell. The grounding for this length
170 Post contains links rcair1 : This might be of interest to people who have been following the B787 battery issues. http://www.ntsb.gov/news/events/2013/batteryforum/index.html Foru
171 bellancacf : I don't know whether this might be worth a thread, but I've wondered what effect the need to enclose Li batteries in steel will have on the SUGARVolt
172 BlueSky1976 : AAB: Dreamliner is POS, I want my money NOW! Boeing: Al, we have this great plane we know you want, it's called 777-9x.... AAB: Really? I still want
173 CXB77L : That's true, but there's no evidence to suggest that this is a direct consequence of the 787 grounding.
174 sankaps : Indeed the point people like me are making is that Boeing has suffered a reputation hit from the 787 program overall, of which this battery-related g
175 Post contains images twiga : First of all I must thank you for the very interesting and informative posts you did on the 787 electrical system, it was a real education for me. In
176 ServantLeader : The impact of 4 years of delays and counting on the 787 program is going to leave a mark; and it has presented a very real opportunity cost by sourin
177 Stitch : JAL has been looking at the A350 since 2008, back when the 787 program was still believed to be relatively on track. The plain fact - even the plane
178 hivue : Sorry, my bad. That was not my intent. I hate baiting as much as you do. So why not purposely burn up the battery in the middle of a test flight acro
179 Post contains images PanAm788 : We should start another thread titled "What if the 787 was on time/under budget?" Think of all the projects they would have a head start on. MAX coul
180 Kaiarahi : "Fact n A thing that is proved to be true; the truth about events as opposed to interpretation"
181 Post contains images twiga : Thanks Stitch. If thats fact, then I rest my case other than for PR reasons, and we could debate that until the cows come home. By the way I have app
182 Post contains images cornutt : I LOL'ed, but...
183 RickNRoll : I stand corrected.
184 aklrno : If you really want all tests done airborne, then how about the wing load test? Set up some test flight scenario to load the wing to 150% of max desig
185 Post contains images rcair1 : Sorry - saying something over and over again does not make it factual - despite the fact that politicians seem to thrive on it. You talk about opport
186 art : I think it will, as will the A380 delays (production is still way below where it was supposed to be in 2009? IIRC). These delays have demonstrated th
187 PHX787 : Ok I've been slammed recently and haven't been able to read Airliners....and again, like I've probably said in the last 13 threads, I am really disapp
188 sweair : Maybe a dent in short term but when the 787 goes in to mass flight it will speak for itself, often looked over ANA was very very happy with their 787s
189 Post contains images NAV20 : Not overly surprising, PHX787, since there really isn't any hard news? As I see the situation, Boeing reckon that they've done enough checking/modifi
190 blueshamu330s : I find it interesting that on here, predominantly an enthusiast site, the buzz is about getting the Dreamliner back in the air. Meanwhile, on that wel
191 Stitch : I've been following / participating in those discussions and I find they mirror the ones we have here. On the Rumors and News forum, it's mostly a co
192 justloveplanes : There is superficial politics going on. Fact is, Boeing overdesigned their containment for LiIon and I think there are many more issues that are high
193 NYC777 : Hearing a RUMOR that the FAA has certified Boeing battery fix. Please note the word rumor, it's not confirmed though I'm trying to confirm it.
194 Post contains images PW100 : My impression was that they are completely isolated. Not to stir the pot here, so let me explain. My understanding, and I might very well be wrong, i
195 Stitch : Boeing have very much taken steps to improve the thermal stability of the battery packs - they've added insulation around each cell to help control t
196 Navion : Being a pilot most of my life and being around professional pilots most of my life I've found that often many of that group promote (at times) wildly
197 7BOEING7 : Since the main topic for the next meeting will relate to design and certification of the battery as well as (I believe) certification in general I do
198 Post contains images twiga : Nobody said anything about doing "all" tests airborne. Where did you see or get this information? Anyway I think you are a little off beat with this
199 hivue : Well, testing the wing in flight to its max (i.e., 100%) design limits definitely would surprise me. Perhaps you mean the max operating limits?
200 aklrno : The way I understand it, the max design limit=max operating limit. The wing is then required to show in a static test that it will go to 150% of that
201 Post contains links and images PHX787 : Wasn't an announcement expected this week or next week anyway regarding the fix? Per these articles: http://www.businessweek.com/news/201...eing-very
202 twiga : I wish I hadn't opened up this discussion, because I will be the first to admit ignorance in aircraft structure design. Difficult to discuss somethin
203 Stitch : As I understand it, Limit Load is the maximum load that the wing is expected to ever experience in flight and Ultimate Load is 150% of Limit Load. Ba
204 Post contains links NAV20 : Turns out that there's a Senate hearing looming as well:- "A U.S. Senate committee is hosting a hearing to discuss ongoing investigations into batter
205 aklrno : I doubt that an impending Senate hearing will cause the FAA to delay. The senators are publicity hounds. They generally have the technical skills of a
206 Post contains images Hamlet69 : Correct Also correct. An entire vehicle is built for this purpose (we must remember its not just the wing they static test, although that is certainl
207 Stitch : The Senate had been planning such a hearing shortly after JL8. Not a chance. As noted, the Senate is just doing this because it's easier than doing i
208 Post contains images twiga : Thanks Stitch. Now with the correct definition, I don't want to leave wrong ideas or impressions out there about possibly flight testing to 110% of L
209 hivue : I do not believe manufacturers intentionally test aircraft structure to 100% limit load in flight, although it might happen accidentally (the A380 ha
210 Post contains links NAV20 : Sincerely hope you're both right, guys. But the FAA is pretty vulnerable, for having certified the dicey batteries in the first place. And it's prett
211 twiga : That was then, before the wild uncontrolable beast got caged for good. If you totally ignore the new robust vented containment vessel then there migh
212 Stitch : The Senate has no authority over the FAA other than approving the President's choice to head the agency so there is no reason for the FAA to wait to
213 BoeingVista : And then be castigated for this decision on live TV by the NTSB in front of a senate committee? The FAA won't take that chance.
214 Stitch : I am very confident they will indeed take that chance.
215 BoeingVista : OK, time will tell I suppose. Its the 16th where I am so I'll be the first to point out that the 787 has noe been grounded for 3 months..
216 bikerthai : Just some more clarifications: Although the static test frame was brand new built, the certification require that the 150% ultimate loading requiremen
217 flpuck6 : Hi everyone, FYI the JAL fuselage titles and tail logo have been uncovered two days ago on JA829J in Boston. It can only mean good news !
218 PITingres : The NTSB has been throwing rocks at the FAA for over 4 decades now, and I'm pretty sure the FAA is used to it. The two agencies are more independent
219 fcogafa : I hear that a non US located 787 should fly in the next 24 hours...
220 KarelXWB : Ferry flight of the Qatar frame (currently stored at LHR) ?[Edited 2013-04-15 09:52:43]
221 Post contains links NAV20 : Looks as if Washington is very much involved in the decision:- "U.S. Transportation Secretary Ray LaHood said on Monday his department will not rush i
222 Post contains links dkny : http://addisfortune.net/articles/et-dreams-to-takeoff/ "The world’s largest aircraft manufacturer, Boeing, will have a pleasant surprise for the glo
223 Speedbird128 : Our resident ANA 788 has disappeared from its hard-stand where it's been for the last couple months. Not sure if it's flown out, or its moved to a ha
224 davidho1985 : Should be Qatar's 787 ferry back to Doha.
225 PHX787 : Many NH planes have been moving around at their respective locations in preparation for reengineering.
226 Speedbird128 : I thought that might be the case, as I noticed that the engineering teams had uncovered the engines etc and cowlings were open so I expect it was ret
227 Post contains images art : He certainly knows how to choose his words [Edited 2013-04-16 04:24:06]
228 Post contains links NAV20 : Looks like this could be the problem. LaHood himself said the wrong thing at very much the wrong time:- "Boeing Co. (BA)’s effort to get its trouble
229 Post contains images Stitch : The explanation is easy - LaHood panicked once NH and JL voluntarily grounded the planes. Of course, he will never admit that, so we shall see how he
230 fcogafa : The QTR B787 was towed to Terminal 4 at LHR for an envisioned departure today but presumably it didn't get the required approvals and has gone back t
231 Post contains links Stitch : The hearings will start at 2:30 Eastern and will be webcast live via the Senate Commerce Committee at http://www.commerce.senate.gov/public/index.cfm?
232 Revelation : It should be no surprise that the head of the FAA is personally in the loop on this investigation. How one gets from that to the idea that the FAA gr
233 Stitch : Two hours in, and the 787 has not come up once other than the opening statement by the FAA Chair stating that they are reviewing Boeing's test data.
234 Post contains links mjoelnir : ETOPS review: http://www.flightglobal.com/news/art...tely-from-battery-decision-384756/
235 Post contains links NAV20 : Looks from this story as if the FAA is waiting until after the NTSB's hearing (on 23rd./24th. April) but are then expected to give the 787 the OK:- "B
236 Post contains links 7BOEING7 : Leave it to King 5 (our local aviation expert) to do a terrible job of reporting the news again. The NTSB hearing coming up will be dealing with cert
237 NAV20 : With respect, 7BOEING7, I get a bit tired of all this 'root cause' stuff. I worked in the property and construction fields, and quite often had to hel
238 par13del : So you are proposing a delay in a decision until the hearing takes place, but make a decision before the findings of the hearing are released - which
239 Stitch : Yes, because the news cycle and people's memories are short. The news and people will remember the FAA approving the 787's return to service a day be
240 Post contains links 7BOEING7 : I know, I was being sarcastic/hyperbolic. Something's happening: http://flightaware.com/live/flight/BOE380 (B-1) http://flightaware.com/live/flight/B
241 KarelXWB : According Matt Cawby, BOE512 is a "functional check flight".
242 7BOEING7 : I would've thought they were done with those. If it does a 360 at ONP it's a C-1. Oops, I thought I saw ONP on the flight plan--not there anymore--mu
243 Post contains links KarelXWB : Ethiopian Airlines schedules Boeing 787 service resumption on 25 April. http://airlineroute.net/2013/04/18/et-787-apr13update/
244 Post contains images KELPkid : Flying down to the Newport, OR VORTAC an back would not be an unreasonable flight plan for an ~1hr flight in a jet
245 NYC777 : Boeing has confirmed to me that they re resuming standard Boeing test flights with no restrictions. The FAA has okayed these flights and all 787s flow
246 Post contains links par13del : A new thread is up if I'm reading right, they are saying that all types of test flights can take place with the a/c as they are but to be delivered th
247 Post contains images Caryjack : How do you do that? Reduce MTOW or some other flight parameter? A related question, how does wing strength vary with the airliners weight? I am curio
248 NYC777 : The planes can fly if they have the new battery with the new containment system. They don't have a root cause but the containment system will mitigat
249 BoeingVista : How much weight has this added to the frame?
250 ComeAndGo : It's not a new battery! It's the same battery with a new containment system. FYI the maker's car batteries suffer the same mysterious unexplained over
251 Kaiarahi : It's quite substantially modified.
252 kanban : the battery is not the same.. the individual cells are closer to that description, however they have been modified as well (wrapped), that battery pa
253 BEG2IAH : Where have you obtained this information? First time I hear something like this.
254 par13del : Another battery question, has redundancy been lost or installation made more difficult with all the changes to the battery and its accomodation. The r
255 Stitch : The Ship's and APU battery have both been given the same modifications so they remain interchangeable. The new containment system does increase the l
256 BEG2IAH : I'm not sure I'm following you. Are you saying they are the same, just like ComeAndGo? The reports you mention didn't say it's the same battery by an
257 Post contains links KarelXWB : The NTSB revealed the agenda for a two-day investigative hearing on the Boeing 787 Dreamliner’s battery malfunctions. More information here: http://
258 SonomaFlyer : It might be a question of semantics. The "base battery" is the same (same chemistry). However, they modified the charging profile as well as spacing
259 Post contains images Stitch : Sorry. I misunderstood the question so you can disregard that statement. The batteries now being installed in 787s have undergone modification to red
260 CALTECH : They will be the same part number and have the same modifications. It will just need to be documented as to where they are installed, Main or APU pos
261 Post contains links KarelXWB : AP reports that the FAA has lifted the grounding order according to an unnamed congressional official. http://bigstory.ap.org/article/repor...ng-dream
262 twiga : The new battery/ containment system adds some 150 lbs to the frame for the APU and Main battery. As a later post states its not a new battery but the
263 KarelXWB : And it's now official, the FAA has cleared the 787 to return to service. Next week, the FAA will issue instructions to operators on how to modify plan
264 Post contains links BEG2IAH : Thanks, Stitch. Great news (opens extremely slowly): http://www.faa.gov/news/press_releases/news_story.cfm?newsId=14554 Excerpt: The Federal Aviation
265 KarelXWB : As expected, no ETOPS restrictions.
266 bikerthai : Max G force designed for the Lower Lobe is per FAR. It is different depending on which direction fore/aft, side/side or up down and whether or not yo
267 Post contains links Stitch : Since we're close to 300 posts on this thread, which is when a new thread is generated by the mods, I opened a new one about the FAA approving the bat
268 tugger : Great to hear! I am thinking it is time for a new thread as this has now changed from a story of the "FAA Grounding" to one of "FAA OK's Proposed Batt
269 Kaiarahi : I hope not, but we haven't seen the AD yet.
270 ComeAndGo : Do we know what caused the battery failure? No The fact that the same brand batteries fail in electric cars suggest that the issue is with the chemist
271 twiga : Thanks for the insight - its a lot more complicated than I thought.
272 tugger : Actually we do, it was caused by overpressure due to thermal runaway. Do we know what caused the initiator incident? Not fully but they understand wh
273 ComeAndGo : We don't know the cause of the thermal runaway. All the FAA did is sign off on a new containment box that should keep any battery meltdown under contr
274 kanban : well there's always the bus or a Carnival Cruise
275 Post contains links iowaman : Due this thread reaching over 270 posts and an approved battery fix, please continue the discussion here: FAA Approves Boeing 787 Battery System Chang
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