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HA Ink Firm Order For 16 A321 NEO's + 9 Options  
User currently offlineGonzalo From Chile, joined Aug 2005, 1985 posts, RR: 2
Posted (1 year 4 months 4 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 9870 times:

I couldn't find this posted yet, if there is a previous thread re the Firm order please delete.

HA signed a firm order for 16 A321 NEOS, + 9 options. At the end of 2012 there were rumours about a 320 NEO order. Is this a Split from that announcement or had they changed their mind in favour of the 321 ?

http://atwonline.com/airframes/hawai...n-airlines-firms-order-25-a321neos

Rgds.
G

[Edited 2013-03-25 07:26:53]

[Edited 2013-03-25 07:28:52]

[Edited 2013-03-25 07:30:02]


80 Knots...V1...Rotate...Gear Up...DC-3 / EMB-110 / Fairchild-227 / Ab318-19-20 / B732 / B763
23 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlinesomeone83 From Norway, joined Sep 2006, 3358 posts, RR: 3
Reply 1, posted (1 year 4 months 4 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 9826 times:

It's 16 that is firmed, the remaining nine are just options

User currently offlineAeroWesty From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 20482 posts, RR: 62
Reply 2, posted (1 year 4 months 4 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 9701 times:

Quoting Gonzalo (Thread starter):
At the end of 2012 there were rumours about a 320 NEO order. Is this a Split from that announcement or had they changed their mind in favour of the 321 ?

So what was it, a rumor or an announcement? I've never read anything official regarding HA interest in A320s, only A321s.



International Homo of Mystery
User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 25052 posts, RR: 46
Reply 3, posted (1 year 4 months 4 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 9654 times:

Deal itself was announced 2-months ago.

Hawaiian (HA) Signs MOU To Buy A321 NEO (by sxf24 Jan 7 2013 in Civil Aviation)

=



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently onlineseabosdca From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 5378 posts, RR: 4
Reply 4, posted (1 year 4 months 3 weeks 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 9004 times:

Good for them. An A321neo + A330 fleet seems perfect for their needs. In my opinion this is a much more useful order than their A350 order.

User currently offlinemotorhussy From New Zealand, joined Mar 2000, 3179 posts, RR: 9
Reply 5, posted (1 year 4 months 3 weeks 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 8926 times:

Quoting seabosdca (Reply 4):
In my opinion this is a much more useful order than their A350 order.

Are they still staying with the -800 series or are they another airline switching up to the A350-900?



come visit the south pacific
User currently offlineazjubilee From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 3905 posts, RR: 28
Reply 6, posted (1 year 4 months 3 weeks 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 8866 times:

Why would the 350 not be useful? It would allow more capacity and longer range than the 332. HAL has been quiet on the 350-800 issue other than they remain committed to the deal at this point and I highly doubt they'll move to the -900 variant.

Good to see the inking of the 321 deal. Now then... which engines will HAL choose?


User currently offlinestarbucks From Netherlands, joined Feb 2013, 697 posts, RR: 6
Reply 7, posted (1 year 4 months 3 weeks 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 8670 times:

Quoting azjubilee (Reply 6):
which engines will HAL choose?

RR on the A330, could be GTF since RR has a part in that engine.
Pure speculation ofcourse



A350 logbook: http://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/pub?key=0AlVgPnmHLOovdFdzbVlyQzhYNDhCb1VFN1RkYXkwV3c&output=html
User currently onlineseabosdca From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 5378 posts, RR: 4
Reply 8, posted (1 year 4 months 3 weeks 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 8562 times:

Quoting azjubilee (Reply 6):
Why would the 350 not be useful? It would allow more capacity and longer range than the 332.

Because they have no need for that range and very little for that capacity, and definitely no need for the A350-800's extra weight. The A330-200 can easily fly to anywhere in North America and East Asia, and it's more than big enough for almost all their routes. My view is that flying to Europe -- really the only place the A350 can get them that the A330 can't -- is a low-yield, high-cost fool's errand.


User currently offlineazjubilee From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 3905 posts, RR: 28
Reply 9, posted (1 year 4 months 3 weeks 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 8486 times:

I see that as a very narrow minded view on the matter of the 350. The idea of Europe has been mentioned, but nothing has been committed. HAL has said that it will explore the opportunity and the bridge would be crossed if the time is right. The 332 will prohibit expansion beyond its limitations should HAL see that opportunity. Very much like the 767/332 are prohibiting domestic expansion. The company is broadening its horizons with the purchase of the 321neo now that there is a plane that can allow for viable expansion. Given the hunger for China, once the visa limitations are solved (hopefully) the 350 could end up being the better a/c suited for that market. It may not be an ULH flight, but could eliminate weight penalties that the 332 could impose, same holds true for SE Asia should that market become attractive for nonstop service to Hawaii.

User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 19495 posts, RR: 58
Reply 10, posted (1 year 4 months 3 weeks 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 8402 times:

Quoting starbucks (Reply 7):

RR on the A330, could be GTF since RR has a part in that engine.

I recall reading elsewhere on this forum that the GTF has a small advantage over the LEAP in cruise, while LEAP has an advantage in climb. Given that HA will be operating these aircraft almost exclusively to the West Coast (i.e. they won't be inter-island workhorses), I would give PW the benefit of the doubt on the order. Of course, since these contracts tend to be power-by-the-hour, whoever offers the best hourly rate will likely win the order.


User currently onlineAR385 From Mexico, joined Nov 2003, 6175 posts, RR: 30
Reply 11, posted (1 year 4 months 3 weeks 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 8300 times:
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So is this order for expansion, or they have realized that their A330s are too big for certain markets?


MGGS
User currently onlineseabosdca From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 5378 posts, RR: 4
Reply 12, posted (1 year 4 months 3 weeks 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 8261 times:

Quoting azjubilee (Reply 9):
It may not be an ULH flight, but could eliminate weight penalties that the 332 could impose

There shouldn't be any weight penalties on the 332 for any market in China major enough to warrant a flight.

Quoting azjubilee (Reply 9):
The company is broadening its horizons with the purchase of the 321neo now that there is a plane that can allow for viable expansion.

   What I'm saying is that the A321neo offers far more good opportunities for expansion, with far less risk, than the A350.


User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 19495 posts, RR: 58
Reply 13, posted (1 year 4 months 3 weeks 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 8164 times:

Quoting AR385 (Reply 11):
So is this order for expansion, or they have realized that their A330s are too big for certain markets?

Probably a bit of both. In the long-term, the 767's are going away. There isn't really a good 763 replacement available in the time frame required. For West Coast destinations, the A321NEO might be a good choice. For example, they could send 2xA320NEO to a market like OAK. They could also use it as a tag-on to add additional frequencies to markets that already get an A330, like SFO. And they could use it to serve existing markets to islands that don't currently have direct HA service, like LIH and the Big Island destinations. There are also markets that they might be able to serve (maybe RNO?) that they can't serve with a widebody due to low demand.

There is a flexibility that it offers that larger aircraft lack.


User currently offlineGonzalo From Chile, joined Aug 2005, 1985 posts, RR: 2
Reply 14, posted (1 year 4 months 3 weeks 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 7873 times:

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 10):
I recall reading elsewhere on this forum that the GTF has a small advantage over the LEAP in cruise, while LEAP has an advantage in climb.

Unless they use this aircraft for inter islands service, the "climb" portion of the flights is always a very small percentage of the flight time compared with the time in cruise to any west coast destination.... If the difference is relevant, I tend to think that the decision is pretty obvious....

Rgds.
G.



80 Knots...V1...Rotate...Gear Up...DC-3 / EMB-110 / Fairchild-227 / Ab318-19-20 / B732 / B763
User currently offlinealoha73g From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 2362 posts, RR: 4
Reply 15, posted (1 year 4 months 3 weeks 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 7179 times:

Quoting AR385 (Reply 11):
So is this order for expansion, or they have realized that their A330s are too big for certain markets?

Hawaiian explicitly stated that the 321s would be used to serve existing mainland destinations from the neighbor islands, and also to add seats from HNL as needed (daily 321 vs 4x weekly 767).

Aloha!



Aloha Airlines - The Spirit Moves Us. Gone but NEVER Forgotten. Aloha, A Hui Hou!
User currently offlineRWA380 From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3182 posts, RR: 5
Reply 16, posted (1 year 4 months 3 weeks 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 5094 times:

Quoting aloha73g (Reply 15):
Hawaiian explicitly stated that the 321s would be used to serve existing mainland destinations from the neighbor islands, and also to add seats from HNL as needed (daily 321 vs 4x weekly 767).

A great example is OGG-PDX-OGG, the 763 has proven to be too much aircraft for a daily year 'round flight, or even a seasonal 4x weekly flight, so HA pulled that PDX-OGG flight, and upgauged their PDX-HNL flight to a 330.

Now AS operates OGG-PDX-OGG daily on a 738, and during high season they go 2x daily. This is a perfect example of a market HA can come back to profitably.



AA-AC-AQ-AS-BN-BD-CO-CS-DL-EA-EZ-HA-HP-KL-KN-MP-MW-NK-NW-OO-OZ-PA-PS-QX-RC-RH-RW-SA-TG-TW-UA-US-VS-WA-WC-WN
User currently offlineFly2yyz From Canada, joined Jan 2006, 1040 posts, RR: 2
Reply 17, posted (1 year 4 months 3 weeks 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 4739 times:

its amazing to see the growth of HA, such an amazing airline that has grown so much with a bright future!

User currently offline777ER From New Zealand, joined Dec 2003, 12090 posts, RR: 18
Reply 18, posted (1 year 4 months 3 weeks 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 4438 times:
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I've always thought the B763/A330 was too big of an aircraft for HI - mainland services. Really hope HA use the A321 for tag on services like LAX-ORD.

Wonder if HA will use these new aircraft for expansion into the South Pacific like PPT, NAN, RAR and maybe even onto AKL/Australia


User currently offlinetimpdx From United States of America, joined Jul 2009, 545 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (1 year 4 months 3 weeks 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 4356 times:

just curious, dont mean to start an A vsB thread, but why is HA so seemingly anti B? its rare for an airline these days to only order new from one maker, but HA seems t o be in the A only camp. Cant think of many other short and long range buyers except Air Asia who are only Airbus vs ordering from both. I am talking new airframe orders, I know the fleet is diverse at this point, but the direction for being an all A carrier seems pretty definite. Dont take me as a B loyalist, I have flown the most as a pax on Airbus planes by a good margin, just curious, thats all.

User currently offlineHNLPointShoot From United States of America, joined Feb 2007, 319 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (1 year 4 months 3 weeks 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 3943 times:

Quoting timpdx (Reply 19):

just curious, dont mean to start an A vsB thread, but why is HA so seemingly anti B? its rare for an airline these days to only order new from one maker, but HA seems t o be in the A only camp. Cant think of many other short and long range buyers except Air Asia who are only Airbus vs ordering from both. I am talking new airframe orders, I know the fleet is diverse at this point, but the direction for being an all A carrier seems pretty definite. Dont take me as a B loyalist, I have flown the most as a pax on Airbus planes by a good margin, just curious, thats all.

HA was never a Boeing airline until around 1999-2000 when they picked up the 767s. That circa-2000 order was literally the first time HA had ever operated Boeing aircraft since starting up in 1929; they've flown Douglas planes of various types for most of their history. In particular, HA has been incredibly loyal to the DC-9 line; they first flew the DC-9-10 in 1966, and have been flying some version of it (-10, -30, -50, MD-81, MD-95/717) ever since.

IIRC, the decision to buy the A358 and A332 was driven in part because HA bundled two distinct requirements into an RFP they issued when they were studying fleet options. The first was for medium-term growth to a mix of domestic and international cities, and the second was for long-term growth into China and possibly Europe. Boeing offered more 763s and the 788, while Airbus offerred the A332 and A358. HA saw the 788 and A358 as substantially similar for their purposes, but the A332 offered more opportunity for growth with more range and more payload. (This paragraph is based on an old podcast featuring Mark Dunkerley that I remember hearing years ago, but I have no idea where to find it now. As such, my mind could just be messing with me on this.)


User currently offlinescbriml From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2003, 12462 posts, RR: 46
Reply 21, posted (1 year 4 months 3 weeks 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 2619 times:
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Quoting Fly2yyz (Reply 17):
its amazing to see the growth of HA, such an amazing airline that has grown so much with a bright future!

And yet I seem to remember a lot of negativity about them here when their original A330/A350 orders were announced. Hmm.   



Time flies like an arrow, but fruit flies like a banana!
User currently offlineJAAlbert From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 1572 posts, RR: 1
Reply 22, posted (1 year 4 months 3 weeks 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 2204 times:

A 320 would be great on SAN - OGG for instance. Has sometimes flown the route using a 767. Every 767 HA flight from SAN to HNL has been virtually 100% capacity on the flights I've flown, but the flights to OGG from SAN on the 767 have always had several empty rows. (although personally I love a widebody between SAN and OGG!)

User currently onlinefun2fly From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 1035 posts, RR: 1
Reply 23, posted (1 year 4 months 3 weeks 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 2019 times:

It will be interesting to see how the new low CASM single aisle Hawaii market evolves.

DL has the option of 753 for low CASM moves.

UA can use the 753/737's.

HA can use the A321.

AS uses 737's.

AA will have tons of new narrowbody deliveries.

The market has changed from the widebody days. More interesting, all the main players seem to be making moves to prepare for, or possibly scare off, WN from entering the market.

Seems like a pretty wise move by HA.


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