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SWA Plans "Substantial" Growth At Love Field  
User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 25821 posts, RR: 50
Posted (1 year 7 months 1 week 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 13771 times:

Well probably no surprise with the Wright Amendment handcuffs coming off at Dallas Love Field in 2014, the prospects have Southwest Airlines officials excited.

In an interview the chief commercial officer Bob Jordan calls the lifting a "fabulous opportunity".

He says the airline knows its North Texas customers prefer nonstop service, and as such expect to add "substantial number of not just new destinations but also new flights" out of Love Field.

More specifically he certainly expects Southwest to connect Love with its major cities like Chicago, Las Vegas and Phoenix with new nonstop service.

They also see boost in DAL departures by 30-40 new daily flights with airport enplanements climbing 25% "easily".

Also part of the lifting of restrictions SWA sees "modest reductions" coming to some of its shorthaul routes from Love which today are being propped up by customers going to beyond markets.

But all in all Bob Jordan says “The sum total of all this will be more flights, more passengers out of Love Field.”

Story:
http://www.dallasnews.com/business/a...om-dallas-love-field-handcuffs.ece

All in all the Metroplex market will become even more competitive by late 2014. Good for consumers.

=


From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
121 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently onlineRL757PVD From United States of America, joined Dec 1999, 4696 posts, RR: 11
Reply 1, posted (1 year 7 months 1 week 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 13647 times:

Quoting LAXintl (Thread starter):
They also see boost in DAL departures by 30-40 new daily flight

At that level, I dont expect a lot of new cities...

If you figure:
MDW 7x
LAX,LAS, ATL, PHX and BWI at 5x
SFO, LGA at 4x
SEA, MCO and BNA at 3x

You are at about 50 flights right there and only 10 cities (all of which at that levels are still at a massive frequency disadvantage)



Experience is what you get when what you thought would work out didn't!
User currently offlineenilria From Canada, joined Feb 2008, 7412 posts, RR: 14
Reply 2, posted (1 year 7 months 1 week 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 13629 times:

Quoting LAXintl (Thread starter):
They also see boost in DAL departures by 30-40 new daily flights with airport enplanements climbing 25% "easily".
Quoting LAXintl (Thread starter):
Also part of the lifting of restrictions SWA sees "modest reductions" coming to some of its shorthaul routes from Love which today are being propped up by customers going to beyond markets.

I wasn't aware they were able to add flights given the gate reduction. Well, if you think about it, this is a really big deal for the rest of the WN network.

They are essentially saying they are going to add 60+ beyond perimeter RTs fractionally funded by ~20 short trips. Allowing for stage variance, that's like adding about 100 departures (switching from roundtrips to departures and deducting the short flights at a 50% stage discount) all of which are 3-4 hours in average stage. That's say 350 block hours net added and works out to about 30 aircraft. Guess what? WN is basically fleet neutral, so they are going to take 30 planes from somewhere in their network to fund this. Care to guess where?

#1 Choice: ATL


User currently offlineHPRamper From United States of America, joined May 2005, 4078 posts, RR: 8
Reply 3, posted (1 year 7 months 1 week 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 13606 times:

With DAL finally becoming a legitimate connection point we could very likely see fewer flights at current east-west transit airports such as PHX, ABQ, STL and MCI. I think the vast majority of WN traffic will eventually be routed across the country through one of DAL, DEN and MDW.

User currently offlineAAIL86 From Finland, joined Feb 2011, 418 posts, RR: 3
Reply 4, posted (1 year 7 months 1 week 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 13587 times:

Agreed that its good news for the Dallas side of the metroplex.

Unlike the late-1970s when DFW was a brand new airport, the D/FW area is now large enough to fully support the use of both airports. This will cetainly effect pricing levels to a degree but otherwise it will be business as usual at both facilites.
I wonder if WN at some point pushes futher and requests the abillity to fly to Mexico from Love ...



Next
User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 25821 posts, RR: 50
Reply 5, posted (1 year 7 months 1 week 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 13502 times:

Quoting enilria (Reply 2):
Well, if you think about it, this is a really big deal for the rest of the WN network.

  

Yes the removal of the artificial quarantine around Love will indeed create ripples around the Southwest network.

Not only does the company gain the ability to finally connect its North Texas home and customers nonstop across the nation, it does allow for easier of passenger (and cargo) connection flow across the network.

Also for the first time that I recall seeing, SWA discusses what we long suspected - many DAL shorthaul markets are there to provide beyond links, and their frequency is above what the market can support on its own. Certainly going to be a loss I think for airports like ABQ, ELP, OKC, TUL, MSY, etc that see lots of 1-stop continuing service today imo.



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently onlinealggag From United States of America, joined Apr 2010, 98 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (1 year 7 months 1 week 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 13472 times:

As a Houston based WN flyer it's going to feel strange to connect in DAL while on my way to somewhere other than LBB.  
Quoting AAIL86 (Reply 4):
I wonder if WN at some point pushes futher and requests the abillity to fly to Mexico from Love ...

Maybe, but the next battleground will probably be to get the gate limit removed. Trying to get international service would be a huge battle as they would have to get the Wright Amendment 100% removed to allow the international flying "in principle" just to get into a HOU 2.0 type battle for international facilities. 


User currently offlineBigGSFO From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 2933 posts, RR: 6
Reply 7, posted (1 year 7 months 1 week 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 13414 times:

Give Dallas some true, national competition. Good for consumers. Doesn't AA still have some gates there? Most likely they will add some nonstops to protect some traffic to higher yielding markets (i.e. LGA, LAX, etc.).

Does Love have much room to expand? With the restrictions off the opportunity is there not just for WN, but for everyone else too.


User currently offlineMaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 17681 posts, RR: 46
Reply 8, posted (1 year 7 months 1 week 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 13377 times:

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 5):
many DAL shorthaul markets are there to provide beyond links, and their frequency is above what the market can support on its own. Certainly going to be a loss I think for airports like ABQ, ELP, OKC, TUL, MSY, etc that see lots of 1-stop continuing service today

I think this is the bigger, not really surprising, news here--I'm more curious where the current DAL routes will end up circa 2015 and beyond than what will be added.

Quoting BigGSFO (Reply 7):
Give Dallas some true, national competition

NK beat them to the punch.

Quoting BigGSFO (Reply 7):
Doesn't AA still have some gates there? Most likely they will add some nonstops to protect some traffic to higher yielding markets (i.e. LGA, LAX, etc.).

I'd like to think AA has learned from the last couple times they tried this but I doubt it. Then again I suspect US will not allow such a pointless waste of money and resources.



E pur si muove -Galileo
User currently onlinealggag From United States of America, joined Apr 2010, 98 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (1 year 7 months 1 week 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 13374 times:

Quoting BigGSFO (Reply 7):
Does Love have much room to expand? With the restrictions off the opportunity is there not just for WN, but for everyone else too.

Not really - a consequence for removing the perimeter rule was the institution of a 20 gate rule, 16 of which for WN.


User currently onlinesdoyon From United States of America, joined Mar 2012, 261 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (1 year 7 months 1 week 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 13317 times:

Any thoughts on how much (if any) DAL-HOU will be reduced? I have no doubt they can fill most of these seats with O&D pax, but 25 seems a little high--maybe 20?

Without a doubt, MAF/LBB/AMA won't stay at 6x daily--I see these as 2 daily tops. This will free up for places like DEN, MDW, LAS, LAX, OAK, BOS, and LGA (I'm pretty sure DAL-LGA is within the LGA perimeter, but I could be wrong).


User currently offlineBeardown91737 From United States of America, joined Jun 2011, 563 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (1 year 7 months 1 week 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 13272 times:

Quoting alggag (Reply 9):
a consequence for removing the perimeter rule was the institution of a 20 gate rule, 16 of which for WN.

Assuming 15-16 hours a day of operation (6AM to 9 or 10PM), how many departures could WN schedule from 16 gates?



135 hrs PIC (mostly PA-28) - not current. Landings at MDW, PIA, JAN.
User currently offlineAA737-823 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 5873 posts, RR: 11
Reply 12, posted (1 year 7 months 1 week 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 13263 times:

Quoting BigGSFO (Reply 7):
Does Love have much room to expand? With the restrictions off the opportunity is there not just for WN, but for everyone else too.

No, it's hemmed in on all sides, really, by lakes, roads, hoses, etc.
BUT- given how large aircraft (747) have served it in the past, aircraft size is not an issue.
Given how many customers have transited there in the past, and again in recent years, that sort of infrastructure isn't an issue, either.
All in all, I don't think there is any need for expansion, EXCEPT this 20-gate rule nonsense, but unlike above posters, I believe it is here to stay, for another thirty years anyhow. But it limits things pretty severely.
16 gates are for WM, 2 for UA, and 2 for AA/DL. The language in the agreement says that if a new carrier wants in (jetBlue, Virgin, and airTran were the names thrown around at the time), then everyone has to play nice and voluntarily share their gates with them. Yeah, right. That'll happen.


User currently onlinesdoyon From United States of America, joined Mar 2012, 261 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (1 year 7 months 1 week 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 13239 times:

Quoting Beardown91737 (Reply 11):
Assuming 15-16 hours a day of operation (6AM to 9 or 10PM), how many departures could WN schedule from 16 gates?

I think WN would be ecstatic if they could get 10 departures per gate per day out of DAL, or around 160 flights a day. Any more than that and they run the risk of jamming up the entire operation when a 40-minute turn suddenly goes tech.

[Edited 2013-03-25 12:11:49]

User currently offlineusairways85 From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 3435 posts, RR: 7
Reply 14, posted (1 year 7 months 1 week 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 13213 times:

No offense but the author also states that Continental leases/owns 2 gates at DAL.

User currently onlinealggag From United States of America, joined Apr 2010, 98 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (1 year 7 months 1 week 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 13218 times:

Quoting sdoyon (Reply 10):
Any thoughts on how much (if any) DAL-HOU will be reduced? I have no doubt they can fill most of these seats with O&D pax, but 25 seems a little high--maybe 20?

Depending on the time of day some of the loads can be quite low. For example, the last time I flew my booked flight was cancelled (mechanical) and all passengers from my flight were accommodated on the next flight with enough room still to spare for standby passengers that themselves were originally booked on even later flights! That said, they would have to step very carefully on making any adjustments as a lot of passengers that fly this route are on full fare tickets and count on basically just being able to show up at either DAL or HOU at anytime of the day and getting on the next available flight.


User currently offlineAlias1024 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 2781 posts, RR: 2
Reply 16, posted (1 year 7 months 1 week 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 13138 times:

Quoting HPRamper (Reply 3):
With DAL finally becoming a legitimate connection point we could very likely see fewer flights at current east-west transit airports such as PHX, ABQ, STL and MCI.

I doubt you see too many losses around PHX, STL, or MCI. I tend to think the buildup at DAL will be about better serving the local market and adding non-stops that overfly the previous connecting points, not moving connections through DAL instead of places like PHX or MCI.

The stations I think are going to get hurt the most are the ones that WN used to route their DAL customers out to non-Wright airports. It will be airports in Texas and the border states that will see scehdule trims. ABQ, OKC, MSY, HOU, AUS, SAT, and ELP might all see a few flights lost as that connecting traffic from DAL is reduced.

This will be the final nail in ABQ as a decent connecting point for WN, as it was really the most logical place for connections when traveling from DAL to cities like PHX, LAX, SAN, and LAS. We've already seen ABQ lose much of its prominence for connections at WN as DEN has been built up. The shift from a 733 heavy fleet to 73G also made it easier for east coast to west coast passengers to overfly ABQ instead of connecting there, so the longer haul marginal markets like TPA, PDX and MCO were either reduced or eliminated from ABQ. They'll still sell connections as the schedule allows, but I think ABQ is going to get squeezed a little more from this with lost frequencies to DAL and a few out west that took lots of connecting passengers, and could end up somewhere around 35-40 flights a day, where a decade ago it was almost 70.



It is a mistake to think you can solve any major problems with just potatoes.
User currently offlinecommavia From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 11753 posts, RR: 62
Reply 17, posted (1 year 7 months 1 week 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 13087 times:

Quoting LAXintl (Thread starter):
They also see boost in DAL departures by 30-40 new daily flights with airport enplanements climbing 25% "easily".

Just as expected - "substantial growth" is likely to amount to a few dozen new departures. A marked increase, for sure, but I don't expect it will have all that dramatic a net effect. I suspect probably around 60 new departures to new beyond-Wright markets, with around 2/3 of that incremental departure growth from new flights, and the other 1/3 from displacing shorthaul departures.

Will be interesting to see how it goes ...

Quoting AAIL86 (Reply 4):
Unlike the late-1970s when DFW was a brand new airport, the D/FW area is now large enough to fully support the use of both airports. This will cetainly effect pricing levels to a degree but otherwise it will be business as usual at both facilites.

  

Quoting BigGSFO (Reply 7):
Doesn't AA still have some gates there? Most likely they will add some nonstops to protect some traffic to higher yielding markets (i.e. LGA, LAX, etc.).

AA still holds leases on 2 gates at DAL that will likely be getting well-used come next year. I suspect AA will fly a fairly predictable pattern to major U.S. O&D centers and major hubs - at a minimum ORD, LGA, LAX and likely MIA, plus possibly other markets like DCA, SFO, etc. Given the capacity constraints, I doubt it will total more than around 20 daily departures.


User currently onlinealggag From United States of America, joined Apr 2010, 98 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (1 year 7 months 1 week 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 12796 times:

Quoting Alias1024 (Reply 16):
The stations I think are going to get hurt the most are the ones that WN used to route their DAL customers out to non-Wright airports. It will be airports in Texas and the border states that will see scehdule trims. ABQ, OKC, MSY, HOU, AUS, SAT, and ELP might all see a few flights lost as that connecting traffic from DAL is reduced.

I don't think HOU will see any real noticeable reductions. Keep in mind that this will be happening around the time that HOU will likely be turning into WN's gateway to Central America on top of its existing duties as a big domestic station.

[Edited 2013-03-25 13:27:15]

User currently offlineAVENSAB727 From United States of America, joined Jun 2012, 945 posts, RR: 1
Reply 19, posted (1 year 7 months 1 week 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 12762 times:

Quoting alggag (Reply 6):

Maybe, but the next battleground will probably be to get the gate limit removed. Trying to get international service would be a huge battle as they would have to get the Wright Amendment 100% removed to allow the international flying "in principle" just to get into a HOU 2.0 type battle for international facilities. 

I see, I can see AA fighting that. I can only wonder what could happen if SWA wins the right to fly internationally from DAL.



Always look on the bright side of Life!
User currently offlineKELPkid From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 6413 posts, RR: 3
Reply 20, posted (1 year 7 months 1 week 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 12669 times:

Quoting BigGSFO (Reply 7):



Give Dallas some true, national competition. Good for consumers. Doesn't AA still have some gates there? Most likely they will add some nonstops to protect some traffic to higher yielding markets (i.e. LGA, LAX, etc.).

I'm thinking a merged/undergoing merger AA is going to have bigger fish to fry, and the whole Love Field debacle is going to be but a distant memory...   Especially if a merged AA headquarters ends up in PHX.



Celebrating the birth of KELPkidJR on August 5, 2009 :-)
User currently offlineusflyguy From United States of America, joined Jan 2012, 1024 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (1 year 7 months 1 week 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 12633 times:

Quoting enilria (Reply 2):
WN is basically fleet neutral, so they are going to take 30 planes from somewhere in their network to fund this. Care to guess where?

#1 Choice: ATL

I'll say you're just as right on this as you were with saying the code-share was never going to happen...

By then the ROIC should be on track and growth will happen.



My post is my ideas and my opinions only, I do not represent the ideas or opinions of anyone else or company.
User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 25821 posts, RR: 50
Reply 22, posted (1 year 7 months 1 week 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 12519 times:

Here is a quick and dirty of the top O&D metros from DFW that fall outside the DAL perimeter.

Gives a bit of clue where SWA might want to go.

Los Angeles - 4,021
New York - 3,186
Chicago - 2,697
Washington D.C. - 2,659
San Francisco - 2,541
Las Vegas - 2,240
Atlanta - 2,219
Denver - 1,920
Miami - 1,653
Orlando - 1,416
Seattle - 1,306
Boston - 1,188
Philadelphia - 1,088
Phoenix - 1,031
Minneapolis - 900
Detroit - 787
San Diego - 746
Salt Lake - 733
Charlotte - 655
Tampa - 608
Portland - 549
Milwaukee - 524
Nashville - 473
Cleveland - 462
Raleigh - 450
Pittsburgh - 414
Jacksonville - 398
Indianapolis - 394
Sacramento - 362
Columbus - 432
Cincinnati - 316
Reno - 313
Hartford - 311
Tucson - 307

=



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlinecactus739 From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 2448 posts, RR: 31
Reply 23, posted (1 year 7 months 1 week 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 12458 times:

Quoting KELPkid (Reply 20):
Especially if a merged AA headquarters ends up in PHX.

Not going to happen.



You can't fix stupid.... - Ron White
User currently offlineAA737-823 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 5873 posts, RR: 11
Reply 24, posted (1 year 7 months 1 week 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 12394 times:

Quoting commavia (Reply 17):
AA still holds leases on 2 gates at DAL that will likely be getting well-used come next year. I suspect AA will fly a fairly predictable pattern to major U.S. O&D centers and major hubs - at a minimum ORD, LGA, LAX and likely MIA, plus possibly other markets like DCA, SFO, etc. Given the capacity constraints, I doubt it will total more than around 20 daily departures.

I respectfully disagree.

AA tried DAL... ORD, MCI, STL, and... one other place that escapes me at the moment.
It didn't work.
It didn't work with F100's back at the turn of the century.
It didn't work with MD-80s a few years ago.
It didn't work with ERJ's the year after that.

I don't know how successful DL is with DAL-MEM (I think they're capitalizing on people who don't know the difference between DAL and DFW... their pax, as compared to us CO DAL veterans, always look dazed and confused). But I don't expect that to be long-term, either. Maybe ATL or something... we'll see.


25 Post contains images infiniti329 : You are correct LGA-DAL is 1380 mi.....inside the 1500 mi perimeter rule
26 william : Bifg There is a gate cap at Love field, unlike Hobby.
27 Post contains images panam330 : How is that offensive? They're United gates now that CO is gone. It will stay in Texas until hell freezes over.
28 wwtraveler99 : Looks like AUS is the one that escaped you. Also maybe the rumored deal with Boeing/Ryanair/Southwest has a little truth to it. Now it makes even mor
29 commavia : All of that is meaningless in telling us how AA may perform going forward for one critical reason: AA in the past was never able to simultaneously fl
30 MaverickM11 : I think more importantly, AA doesn't need to be in DAL any more than it needs to be in MDW, or FLL, when it can compete much more effectively with mu
31 usairways85 : I was making the point that the author couldn't even get the simple fact that CO hasn't existed in over a year, so should the article be seen as just
32 Tigerguy : The author was not referring to CO existing today. In explaining the parts of the 2006 compromise and the events that were scheduled to happen in the
33 Post contains images wnflyguy : I think DAL will become 737-800 heavy in OCT 2014. I see the morning line up like this. 6am LAX--737-800 6am LGA--737-800 6am BWI--737-800 6am SFO--73
34 commavia : I don't really disagree with you. I don't think the convenience of Love Field, nor for that matter Southwest, is quite the scary competitor it might
35 Joeljack : Don't forget about OMA! Remember, this wouldn't be happening if it wasn't for the US Senator from Nebraska that pushed the Wright amendment change thr
36 LAXintl : Regarding AA, I don't think being at Love is much a deal for them even post Wright. With 2 gates, and AA's slower/more complex operation they certainl
37 Post contains images SPREE34 : New Sheriff in town, and he knows how to make money with airplanes. The HQ will stay in FTW. That was part of the initial announcements last Fall. Ag
38 TW870 : Why would places like LBB and MAF lose service with the change? They already send their traffic to DAL for connections, and it seems like the new pla
39 usflyguy : N/S service out of DAL will be overflying the current stops.
40 Josh32121 : DL currently flies ATL-DAL on CRJ-200's. A friend of mine flew it last week. I'm not sure how well it does for DL, though.
41 sdoyon : As you postulated yourself, these flights may be artificially overscheduled. I am of the opinion that they are. How is it that MAF-HOU has 3x daily f
42 AA737-823 : Really? I was almost certain it was NW's old Memphis route...
43 Post contains images lightsaber : This is an exciting change for WN and DAL. Am I the only one excited by WN able to open up 'hubs' from DAL and thus tremendously expanding their custo
44 mcdu : That's a monopoly on gates. WN should be forced to give up gates to new entrants like VX, B6 and the legacy carriers should also get a few gates.....
45 BHMNONREV : I believe all of this was agreed to with the airlines in return for the 2014 repeal of the WA, so no turning back now. And as someone else mentioned
46 bobloblaw : I think that is too many, youre at 49 there. My guess MDW x5-5 LAX x3-8 PHX x3-11 ATL x3-14 LAS x3-17 BWI x3-20 BNA x2-22 MCO x2-24 DEN x3-27 OAK x1-
47 BestWestern : Can DAL not use gates to serve multiple flights by using bussing 'technology' That would allow, for example a 6am and a 6.30am departure from the same
48 bobloblaw : 1. There is no reason for that 2. WN would never do that 3. That would violate the spirit if not the actual agreement concerning the size of DAL and
49 alggag : This is more realistic than some of the, how shall I say, more optimistic predictions. DAL would be slightly larger than today's HOU - that, along wi
50 AA737-823 : Rumor had it that pre-merger CO wanted to expand DAL greatly, at the expense of DFW service. No, see below: The language actually explicitly states N
51 bobloblaw : Actually let me switch BNA and BWI. BWI would be 2 and BNA 3. I think STL and MCI will shrink to 4-5 from 8-10 today.
52 BestWestern : Thanks for the explanation. This is a very restrictive rule indeed. Are they allowed to Hard Stand in case of delays, or are passengers stuck on boar
53 bobloblaw : We generally don't do that in the USA. Europe does it because of the lack of space but in the USA, space is not such a premium. I cant off hand think
54 Post contains links usflyguy : WN routinely does 25-30 minute turns at DAL. No. Just a FYI... http://www.lovefieldmodernizationprogram.com/
55 AA737-823 : Hah! Funny joke! You're forgiven, because you aren't from this country, and you're not privy to the revolution that was travel on WN in the 1970's. W
56 bobloblaw : A few of the planes to fund DAL expansion will come from reductions in DAL itself. Also 30-40 flights per day doesn't translate into 30 lines of flyi
57 RyanairGuru : From my understanding that would still be in violation of the hardstand rule. This is crazy!
58 BestWestern : It was a joke BTW. I know where it all started! I was thinking out of the box at a way that WN could increase frequencies from the limited gates they
59 Atrude777 : Burbank Airport would have to be one right? I know you said rare, but that is def a US Airport that would utilize hard stand on a regular scheduled b
60 Deltal1011man : MEM got cut a while a go....moved here(ATL) Delta seems to be making ATL-DAL work(with 2x the cost of fuel when AA's ORD-DAL failed) Same goes for UA
61 BHMNONREV : I could see six to STL, most if not all on the -800. Even though MDW and other major markets will be accessible N/S from DAL there are still a lot of
62 Post contains links deltacto : DL started ATL-DAL September 2012 Delta Launches ATL-DAL In September (by cat3dual Jul 7 2012 in Civil Aviation) Before that DL flew DAL-MEM 3/day sta
63 AA737-823 : UA's DEN-DAL has been cancelled, effective Jan 31st 2013. Bummer, as it made a nice one-stop to Dallas from Anchorage for me.... rather than the SEA-
64 AusTexFlyer : If anything, Midland could support more flights to HOU than to DAL N/S anyway. I haven't looked up official numbers, but being somebody that has earn
65 Post contains links LoneStarMike : This is the relevant paragraph of the agreement: Source (See subsection A in part 3.) So exceptions are made during irregular operations and passenge
66 wwtraveler99 : The problem with this is that airlines agree to it and its now a LAW. So WN is not required to give up gates. Neither is UA or AA. The airport is not
67 LAXintl : You realize - Southwest was the model for EasyJet. Stelios spent time with Southwest carefully studying their model.
68 MSYtristar : I don't think you'll see DAL-MSY cut too much. The smallest number of nonstops I ever remember them having in the market was 5, and that was before th
69 SELMER40 : I see DAL also getting a few one daily flights like.. Memphis may need to be added to this list. If Memphis doesn't get at least one daily flight to
70 JBAirwaysFan : Probably not. If I recall correctly one of the provisions in the Wright Compromise prohibits international flights from DAL. So WN would have to figh
71 Josh32121 : Which city leaders? Memphis? Who would care if they're upset other than themselves? Absent a direct subsidy to support the service, WN will use its l
72 BigGSFO : Well, they continue to watch their status as a hub diminish. I don't think hell will break lose if they don't get a single flight to Love, especially
73 Post contains images point2point : With DAL being able to serve a lot of east/west connect traffic flows post 2014 with the geographic position that they have, does anyone think that ma
74 Cubsrule : It's a decent-sized market right in the "sweet spot" as far as stage length at around 400 miles. I think it'll get a couple of daily flights. At only
75 Josh32121 : Does the restriction on WN (or any airline wholly-owned by WN) serving DFW end with along with the interstate flying restrictions? Could WN then serve
76 MSPNWA : I don't think it can be mentioned enough how the opening up of DAL will lead to greater one-stop opportunities for WN. With the perimeter rule in plac
77 Atrude777 : Nope. If WN chooses to serve DFW after 2014, they still must follow the rules of the new Wright Amendment and give up a gate for every flight they ad
78 BigGSFO : Nothing has ever stopped WN from serving DFW. They could start 100 flights tomorrow, in theory. WN has simply chosen not to serve DFW and lobby for t
79 ScottB : Maybe it "works" with CR2's, or maybe they're operating the flights to establish a pre-existing use of a gate when the domestic restrictions end next
80 Post contains links and images Josh32121 : Hi, BigG! I don't know the specifics, but there was some provision of the Wright Amendment that said WN or any wholly-owned subsidiary could not serv
81 BigGSFO : Ironic indeed. Thanks. I stand corrected.
82 Post contains images commavia : Well, given the history of "promises" made and then not kept, not enforced or otherwise abrogated by the courts, I think certain parties (understanda
83 Post contains images AAIL86 : Yes - think so. Also the fact that US CBP is not on the premises is an issue. But they doesn't mean still can't push for it Correct. FL discontinued
84 Josh32121 : Apparently, I stand corrected, too. How did that work with the FL acquisition anyway? Was FL able to just walk away from the gate lease? Did it have
85 Post contains images LoneStarMike : but to add to that, the gate relinquishing provision (which also applies to AA in a somewhat different fashion*) expires in 2025. After that WN &
86 LoneStarMike : True, but if WN operated it as a DAL-OMA-MSP flight, it would capture some DAL-OMA traffic on the first leg, some OMA-MSP traffic on the second leg,
87 Post contains images BigGSFO : Wow...so for the sake of context, aside from DAL and DFW, are there any other airports within that 80 mile radius that would be impacted? They say ev
88 AA737-823 : Periodically, Fort Worth Meacham gets thrown into the conversations. There hasn't been air service there since the Wright brothers diverted once, but
89 Post contains links deltacto : Dont forget Fort Worth Airlines! They had flights between Meachem and AUS, HOU, and SAT back in 1985 on NAMC YS-11's http://www.airtimes.com/cgat/usb
90 hivue : When WN inherited sole possession of DAL as a commercial carrier in January of 1974, I think they may still have been a three plane operation flying
91 ouboy79 : Don't forget about the branded service Mesa offered back in the 90s or early 2000s. It didn't last long.
92 SPREE34 : The City of Dallas could have prevented Southwest from using Love if they really wanted to. Doing so would have resulted in Dallas losing FAA funding
93 FlyingSicilian : I've done many a moon buggy at IAD What is the data to support this? Most pax, I'd presume don't even know ahead of time. What are the issues with di
94 Joeljack : I was actually thinking the exact same thing! OMA-MSP flights are a fortune and even though it's only 282 miles in a straight line to drive it, it ta
95 IrishAyes : I don't think you can really bundle the MFA airports with the likes of ORD/MDW and DFW/DAL. You must realize that FLL and PBI are actually quite far
96 Post contains links LAXintl : Here is a peak at what the new terminal layout will be and planned concessions. Concourse looks quite compact and easy to navigate. http://aviationblo
97 texan : TKI talked about trying to attract commercial carriers. Doubt anything would have come of it, but they were not too happy. Texan
98 AA737-823 : Judging by that diagram, I'm not exactly sure where the GATES are. It seems that nearly all the exterior walls are completely lined with revenue-gene
99 blueflyer : Don't hold your breath and wait for Southwest to do either. Quite the contrary, I expect Southwest to remain very quiet for years to come about the c
100 WNCrew : So in the same breath.... did WN CHOOSE to leave or were they TOLD to leave? I understood it that WN knew they had to leave but had a mutually agreed
101 Post contains images commavia : Southwest chose to maintain 100% of their gate space at DAL, and thus - per the terms of the 2005 agreement - were then required to discontinue flyin
102 LoneStarMike : Up to a maximum of 8 gates. In other words, If WN suddenly changed their minds and wanted to operate out of 25 gates at DFW, they'd only have to give
103 blueflyer : Southwest had announced well before the purchase closed that they would be leaving DFW and I don't think anyone expected them to leave overnight. I w
104 crAAzy : AA's incoming A319s seem like the perfect equipment for AA to compete against WN at DAL. DAL's limited size will never allow it to transform into a n
105 Post contains images Beardown91737 : I don't think they will want to. Maybe a spoke from DCA. AA has 75% at DFW, Eagle has 12%. Guess who #3 is..... US Airways! The new owners of AA will
106 bobloblaw : AA's problems at DAL have nothing to do with the equipment. Hard to see how DAL succeeds for AA just because they have 319s. Empty M80, empty ERJs an
107 crAAzy : First, AA has no problems from DAL because they currently don't fly from there. Second, the AA of 2014 is going to be a lot different from the AA in
108 bobloblaw : AA couldn't make DAL-STL work when STL was still a hub. AA's PAST problem has zero, nothing, nada to do with aircraft type. How exactly is the A319 g
109 ScottB : AA won't have enough gates at DAL to offer a competitive schedule to all those airports. They will have two gates and they may have to continue to sh
110 LAXintl : A low density AA A319 wont be financially competitive against a SWA 737/8. As LCCs around the world are finding, the A319 is not the sweet spot, the
111 commavia : I could see around 20x flights among ORD, LGA, LAX, MIA, DCA. That is definitely doable with 2 gates. Do they? I thought AA got preferential use as t
112 bobloblaw : I think Doug Parker will be more sane on DAL than the previous AA mgmt was. AAs problem was a simple lack of pax. That doesn't change with 319s
113 ScottB : Does AA get 10 turns per gate anywhere in the system? (Excluding bus gates) They do under the lease, but it's possible that DL might try to assert so
114 ScottB : But 3-4x daily to ORD/LAX/MIA/LGA/DCA won't really be competitive on schedule with the DFW hub, with the possible exception of MIA. I suppose the plu
115 commavia : Are you 100% positive about this? I'd be interested to see a source. My understanding was that AA had wide flexibility with this order, as with most
116 SkedGuy : I suppose they could, but that seems unlikely since I believe DL actually subleases the gates from AA -- not the City of Dallas.
117 usflyguy : Wasn't the schedule at the time already open and for sale through November 7 and when the schedule was extended, DFW was closed?
118 LAXintl : Yes -- they had to commit to the first 130 planes -- they did that -- 16 A319 and 114 A321s for delivery 2013-2017. They can still play around with t
119 bobloblaw : AA flew the exact right markets from DAL. What is more right than LGA, ORD, LAX and STL when it was still a hub?? With loads as low as they had, ther
120 ouboy79 : So the last several posts having nothing to do with WN @ DAL. Time to close the thread since people can't stay on topic?
121 Post contains images SANFan : I was going to say, "Mods, please change the name of the airline mentioned in the title of this thread to 'AA'." bb
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