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Aircraft Liveries - Are They Still Necessary?  
User currently offlineyankeejuliet From Jamaica, joined Sep 2008, 204 posts, RR: 0
Posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 14449 times:
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With the elimination of waving galleries and observation decks, are expensive paint necessary on passenger aircraft anymore? Employees on the tarmac or in the terminal only require.s the registration on an all white aircraft for identification of the airline. Spotters are very few and hardly catered for at airports.

55 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineDLPMMM From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 3592 posts, RR: 10
Reply 1, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 14437 times:

The planes need to be painted anyway. It is not that much more to add the livery, and it provides for marketing and product differentiation.

Otherwise we might just as well have generic airlines, like generic toilet paper.

If it was that much cheaper and not worth it in terms of marketing return, you could be sure that MOL and Ryanair would have all white.


User currently onlineAeroWesty From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 20640 posts, RR: 62
Reply 2, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 14325 times:

Quoting yankeejuliet (Thread starter):
Employees on the tarmac or in the terminal only require.s the registration on an all white aircraft for identification of the airline.

And when ATC says "follow company plane to ..." and all of the planes are white ...



International Homo of Mystery
User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15744 posts, RR: 27
Reply 3, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 14070 times:

Quoting yankeejuliet (Thread starter):
With the elimination of waving galleries and observation decks, are expensive paint necessary on passenger aircraft anymore?

You'll need some sort of paint or polish for protection of the aircraft skin. You might as well use the free advertising space.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 25338 posts, RR: 22
Reply 4, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 14022 times:

Most of today's liveries are simpler than they used to be, partly because a large percentage of airliners are leased and frequently change operators. The simpler the livery the cheaper it is for the lessor when the lease expires and they have to find a new operator.

Air travel is also rapidly becoming a commodity where most people only care about finding the lowest fare which makes the livery less important.

Branding is still important but primarily in advertising, websites etc., not on the aircraft itself. By the time people see the aircraft they've already made their purchase decision, and even if they haven't, it's doubtful the livery will have much if any impact on the customer's choice of carrier.


User currently offlinebx737 From Ireland, joined Sep 2001, 679 posts, RR: 3
Reply 5, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 13913 times:

It is interesting to note though that passengers pay attention. I recently worked on my own airline's retro jet and was asked quite a number of times about the livery from passengers as they boarded.

User currently offlinePA110 From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 2006 posts, RR: 23
Reply 6, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 13785 times:
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Quoting DLPMMM (Reply 1):
Otherwise we might just as well have generic airlines, like generic toilet paper.

Have you flown recently? We already do!   

There is very little product differentiation these days. Airlines with identifiable style have gone the way of the dodo bird. Only a.nutters would pick apart esoteric differences such as interior furnishings, crew uniforms, etc... To the traveling public, it's very much transport from point A to point B. The only branding that seems to matter these days is the loyalty program.

The OP poses a provocative question: Do liveries really matter any more? I would suspect to the general public, probably not so much.

[Edited 2013-03-29 14:44:49]


It's been swell, but the swelling has gone down.
User currently offlineEricR From United States of America, joined Jul 2010, 1904 posts, RR: 1
Reply 7, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 13705 times:

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 4):
The simpler the livery the cheaper it is for the lessor when the lease expires and they have to find a new operator.



Why would this make a difference to the lessor? I think you mean it is cheaper for the lessee. Under the majority of leases, it is the lessee's responsibility to return the aircraft the lessor in plain white finish.


User currently offlineEIDL From Ireland, joined Apr 2012, 447 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 13635 times:

Customers - not even aviation geek ones - definitely still notice and appreciate liveries. Just take a quick Google for the reaction that Irish people who've been abroad for some time appear to get when they see a green top down the end of their pier in an airport.

User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 25338 posts, RR: 22
Reply 9, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 13615 times:

Quoting EricR (Reply 7):
Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 4):
The simpler the livery the cheaper it is for the lessor when the lease expires and they have to find a new operator.



Why would this make a difference to the lessor? I think you mean it is cheaper for the lessee. Under the majority of leases, it is the lessee's responsibility to return the aircraft the lessor in plain white finish.

In any case, it's still cheaper if the livery is already mostly white.

[Edited 2013-03-29 15:27:25]

User currently offlineODwyerPW From Mexico, joined Dec 2004, 856 posts, RR: 3
Reply 10, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 12656 times:

737 windshield bezels are notorious for having chipped paint.

I've seen passengers look out the window at a waiting 737NG and comment.. Look how old it is? I fly southwest allot. The Canyon Blue around the windows just peels and oxidizes away. Customers think they are boarding an old airplane, when if fact they are flying with a carrier who maintains a young fleet.



Quiero una vida simple en Mexico. Nada mas.
User currently offlineB727FA From United States of America, joined Jun 2011, 764 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 12618 times:

OD brings up a good point. Put a a chipped up paint job a/c on the ramp and people notice. It matters.


My comments/opinions are my own and are not to be construed as the opinion(s) of my employer.
User currently offlinecschleic From United States of America, joined Feb 2002, 1249 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 11820 times:

Yes, so the tower knows which plane is which when there are 50+ moving around down on the ground.

User currently offlineskyguyB727 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 13, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 11701 times:

Branding is an important part of any company's marketing. Would McDonalds continue to be as successful as they are if they got rid of the golden arches and just had a black and white sign saying "Restaurant"? Branding can have a huge impact on a business' success.

User currently offlinedelta88 From United States of America, joined May 2009, 86 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 11632 times:
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I would also agree with Marketing Techniques. Even with AA 's new livery, its still being used to say to everyone that sees it that its the "new American". Airlines use liveries nowadays to protect aircraft and to advertise. A Few companies use winglets on aircraft fitted with them to advertise their websites. Liveries help differentiate aircraft from one airline to another.


707,717,727,738,744,752,762ER,763ER,772ER,MD82,MD-83,MD-88, DC-9-10,DC-10-10,A320
User currently offlinecosyr From United States of America, joined Jul 2012, 393 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 10989 times:

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 3):

And WestPac could shed some light on how useful that is for marketing or profit generation.


User currently onlineBraybuddy From Ireland, joined Aug 2004, 5729 posts, RR: 31
Reply 16, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 10358 times:

Quoting yankeejuliet (Thread starter):
With the elimination of waving galleries and observation decks, are expensive paint necessary on passenger aircraft anymore?

Airport lounges, departure lounges and aircraft all still have windows. So as long as aircraft can be seen through them, I would say YES!


User currently offlineflyingalex From Germany, joined Jul 2010, 1016 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 9810 times:

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 2):
And when ATC says "follow company plane to ..." and all of the planes are white ...
Quoting cschleic (Reply 12):
Yes, so the tower knows which plane is which when there are 50+ moving around down on the ground.

This part is really important. For that reason alone, aircraft ought to have some degree of distinguishing marks.

It really helps the guys in the tower sort out who is who.



Public service announcement: "It's" = "it is". To indicate posession, write "its." Looks wrong, but it's correct grammar
User currently offlineCXfirst From Norway, joined Jan 2007, 3068 posts, RR: 1
Reply 18, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 9688 times:

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 4):
Branding is still important but primarily in advertising, websites etc., not on the aircraft itself. By the time people see the aircraft they've already made their purchase decision, and even if they haven't, it's doubtful the livery will have much if any impact on the customer's choice of carrier.

A passenger is booking a flight and has to choose between Airline A and Airline b. He decides to fly Airline A and is now at the airport. As he waits, he sees airline B and airline C, and airline he didn't know about. Next time he flies, he chooses between Airline A, B and C.

Advertising on planes at airports is a relatively cheap option, and do serve a purpose.

-CXfirst



From Norway, live in Australia
User currently offlineSemaex From Germany, joined Nov 2009, 823 posts, RR: 2
Reply 19, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 8884 times:

Quoting cschleic (Reply 12):
Yes, so the tower knows which plane is which when there are 50+ moving around down on the ground.

I heard of a recent invention called Secundary Radar the other day. Uses Sierra-Transponders and stuff to make identification of aircraft inflight and on the ground a lot easier or even possible without having to see them. For example when it's dark, the plane is far away or the weather is misty  

Somebody mentioned that pax don't care about the livery. I think different on the matter. It's a whole lot of a deal to the people whether they board a "premium" carrier or a random airline - and the proof of doing so is usually a photo on facebook with the according - unique and well-known - livery of the respective carrier.



// You know you're an aviation enthusiast when you look at your neighbour's cars and think about fleet commonality.
User currently offlineairproxx From France, joined Jun 2008, 636 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 7532 times:

Quoting Semaex (Reply 19):

Somebody mentioned that pax don't care about the livery. I think different on the matter. It's a whole lot of a deal to the people whether they board a "premium" carrier or a random airline - and the proof of doing so is usually a photo on facebook with the according - unique and well-known - livery of the respective carrier.

Same opinion here. Branding and airplanes colour are all about marketing, and Airline Liveries remain a very important part of the process...
A question comes to my mind though; why airlines don't use more advertisement on aircraft liveries? I know a lot of them already does, but anyway, legacy carriers seem to be reluctant on that point.... Thoughts?



If you can meet with triumph and disaster, and treat those two impostors just the same
User currently offlineDTW2HYD From United States of America, joined Jan 2013, 1965 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 7303 times:

If at all technically feasible aircraft manufacturers should put LED screens in tail and on the side of fuselage, so there is no need for painting/repainting. They can display all code sharing partners logos one after another.

Same metal can be used by different airlines. No need to repaint on sublease/resale...

Just a wild thought.


User currently offlineBen175 From Australia, joined Jul 2008, 693 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 7242 times:

It really frustrates me when people on this site believe that the average person with no substantial aviation interest can show no knowledge or comprehension of the airline marketing and branding. It's pretty much saying aviation geeks can't tell the difference between a Daewoo and a Maserati, or Wal Mart and Nordstrum for example. I'd actually argue that to the vast majority, air travel is an interesting conversation and liveries, aircraft products, aircraft types/age, different flying experiences etc are commonly discussed amongst people.

User currently offlineBernard Shakey From United States of America, joined Oct 2001, 560 posts, RR: 9
Reply 23, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 6936 times:

The whole system would fall apart if there were a Groundstop to HPN.


Mindless drifter on the road, Carries such an easy load
User currently onlineB6JFKH81 From United States of America, joined Mar 2006, 2891 posts, RR: 7
Reply 24, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 6236 times:

As someone who plays a big role at my airline when it comes to aircraft getting re-painted, I can tell you that the folks in the Brand Management and Marketing departments take aircraft appearance very seriously as it helps to create the identity of the product/service which you are trying to sell and it's the largest billboard that you have to sell your product/service.

If you think about it, airlines are very much like a lot of other industries. The airlines have a common product and service, they have pressurized aluminum cans with a bunch of seats in them to take you from point A to point B. Some have more watered-down basic service to the folks sitting in those seats (think NK, FR, G4), some have more perks (like IFE, increased seat pitch, etc.). That's on the the inside of the aluminum can where customers experience the product. BUT, you still want to differentiate yourself a little bit and help sell your product, that leads to using your free advertising space outside the aluminum can...and you get a livery as it helps create an identity.

It's not much different than the hotel industry, really. What are hotels? Buildings with a bunch of rooms that have beds in them for you to pay to sleep in. Common product. Some are very basic (watered-down interior, small room, basic cable TV and a bible in the night stand drawer), some have a lot more perks (lots of channels on the TV, movie offerings, a bar, a nice place to eat, shuttle vans, etc.). But in the end, they are a bunch of rooms with beds. That doesn't mean the hotel chains don't do their best to come up with an exterior design that fits their style. The buildings may look alike as they are hotels, but the small details like the color, shape, landscaping, signage, lighting, all help to differentiate to make their product stand out from the surrounding buildings.

Long story short, I believe that airline liveries are still quite necessary...and I'm not just saying that for job security LOL  



"If you do not learn from history, you are doomed to repeat it"
User currently offline2008matt From United Kingdom, joined Jun 2008, 134 posts, RR: 0
Reply 25, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 6090 times:

I actually cannot believe some on a.net has asked this, this website would be nothing without liveries, and why would we want to ruin a great creation such as a.net!


Keep calm and up your game!
User currently offlineiFlyLOTs From United States of America, joined Apr 2012, 485 posts, RR: 0
Reply 26, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 6045 times:

I would almost say that airplane liveries are more necessary now than they have been in the past. With the amount of planes there are out there now and how they are all made by just a hand full of manufacturers its almost a safety and security issue.


"...stay hungry, stay foolish" -Steve Jobs
User currently offlineardian From Netherlands, joined Oct 2000, 544 posts, RR: 0
Reply 27, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 5962 times:

"Business without advertising is like winking to a girl in the dark. You know you're doing it, but nobody else does."
(Patsy Stone in AbFab, although it originates from Stuart Henderson   )


User currently offlineJBo From Sweden, joined Jan 2005, 2343 posts, RR: 0
Reply 28, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 5721 times:

I would maintain that an airline's livery is still the single most important element of its brand execution, even if it's not something passengers always see.

Along with all of the arguments in favor of branding, advertising, and marketing strategies ... airline liveries are essential for one very practical reason: aircraft identification.

If everything was generic, air traffic controllers would have a much more difficult time visually identifying specific aircraft. It's the same reason even G.A. aircraft are given colorful paintjobs.



I'd take the awe of understanding over the awe of ignorance any day.
User currently offlineairproxx From France, joined Jun 2008, 636 posts, RR: 0
Reply 29, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 5615 times:

Quoting B6JFKH81 (Reply 24):
As someone who plays a big role at my airline when it comes to aircraft getting re-painted

I've always wondered how it works! I've always been interested in graphic design, painting, drawing, and as a mix of my two passions, aircraft liveries has become some kind of hobby...
What happens if, say, I'm one of your airline employees, and I think I have a great idea to submit.... Can I show it to someone? Or is it too seriously considered to take some time to see some geek paintings   ? Just a thought though, I didn't say I have a great livery design to show you right now!



If you can meet with triumph and disaster, and treat those two impostors just the same
User currently offlineL0VE2FLY From United States of America, joined Dec 2012, 1576 posts, RR: 0
Reply 30, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 4683 times:

Quoting yankeejuliet (Thread starter):
Spotters are very few and hardly catered for at airports.

Very few? Really? So who's taking the thousands of aircraft photos being uploaded to aviation photography websites every day?!

I'm guessing you're the one who posted the first comment to this picture, although you don't live in the Netherlands!




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Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 2):
And when ATC says "follow company plane to ..." and all of the planes are white ...

When QF leased a 747 from BA they stripped the paint off the tail so the ATC & pilots wouldn't be confused.




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Quoting Braybuddy (Reply 16):
Airport lounges, departure lounges and aircraft all still have windows. So as long as aircraft can be seen through them, I would say YES!

  


User currently offlineZRH From Switzerland, joined Nov 1999, 5568 posts, RR: 35
Reply 31, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 4418 times:

Quoting yankeejuliet (Thread starter):
With the elimination of waving galleries and observation decks,

What do mean with that? Here in Zurich we have two great observation decks. Bus tours where you can see the aircrafts take-off from very close. And furthermore plenty of spotting points outside of the fence.


User currently offline777way From Pakistan, joined Dec 2005, 5716 posts, RR: 4
Reply 32, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 4365 times:

Quoting airproxx (Reply 20):
A question comes to my mind though; why airlines don't use more advertisement on aircraft liveries? I know a lot of them already does, but anyway, legacy carriers seem to be reluctant on that point.... Thoughts?

it would look cheap.


User currently offlineairproxx From France, joined Jun 2008, 636 posts, RR: 0
Reply 33, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 4308 times:

Quoting 777way (Reply 32):
it would look cheap.

Well, agreed at some point, but I think it depends on the advert you got painted on the paint.... I mean, a Mc Donalds logo jet would look cheap indeed, while a "apple" logo jet would presumably look gorgeous... I was thinking of the branding design that are painted on F1 cars actually...



If you can meet with triumph and disaster, and treat those two impostors just the same
User currently offlineSYDAIRPORTS From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 34, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 4253 times:

with LCC's growing, while legacies slowly die, liveries are probably more important now.

As most LCC's don't use airbridges, passengers see the aircraft livery before they board.

Seems to be a demand for flying billboards.

Ryanair have had quite a few over the years.

What does it costs to paint a 737 & how much can the likes of Ryaniar sell the advertising space for, or do they do deals with the likes of rental car companies, with no cash, but so many dollars worth of car rentals which they can push through their website ?


User currently offlineWingtips56 From United States of America, joined Dec 2010, 391 posts, RR: 0
Reply 35, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 4227 times:

There have been a number of carriers that feature their reservations phone number or website prominently in their livery, so obviously they do see it as an advertising vehicle. Even instead of the basic name of the airline, like "flyBrandX.com". Not my idea of attractive, but I guess it works for others.


Worked for WestAir, Apollo Airways, Desert Pacific, Western, AirCal and American Airlines
User currently offline777way From Pakistan, joined Dec 2005, 5716 posts, RR: 4
Reply 36, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 4191 times:

Quoting airproxx (Reply 33):

ok I didn't realize you were talking logo jets, I was picturing ad decals stuck on aircraft like in sports.


User currently onlineAeroWesty From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 20640 posts, RR: 62
Reply 37, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 4160 times:

Quoting skyguyB727 (Reply 13):
Would McDonalds continue to be as successful as they are if they got rid of the golden arches and just had a black and white sign saying "Restaurant"?

Did someone say MickeyD's?  


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International Homo of Mystery
User currently offlinezippyjet From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 5478 posts, RR: 12
Reply 38, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 4112 times:

Quoting yankeejuliet (Thread starter):

A lot of the other replies are spot on plus, many airports have recently been making gate areas more spotter friendly. I.E large panoramic windows harking back to the old days of flying. Our Concourse A WN at BWI is a prime example. I believe much of concourse D at MIA has the same type design. There are counttless other examples. Even our gate area at STL features the large windows.



I'm Zippyjet & I approve of this message!
User currently offlineAntoniemey From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 1572 posts, RR: 4
Reply 39, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 3912 times:

Quoting yankeejuliet (Thread starter):
Employees on the tarmac or in the terminal only require.s the registration on an all white aircraft for identification of the airline.

As a ramp agent at a small-ish airport, I can tell you that the livery of the plane helps us know when our plane has arrived. It can be hard enough to tell an Eagle ERJ from a blue-striped UAX ERJ at night, we'd never know whose plane was landing if they were just painted white with registrations and titles by the door.

Quoting cschleic (Reply 12):
Yes, so the tower knows which plane is which when there are 50+ moving around down on the ground.

I wonder if the US logojets throw them for a loop as much as they do me... I mean, I love them (well, maybe not the Steelers plane), but it always takes me a minute of "What airline is that?" before I get a good view and go "Oh, right, US Airways." Today's culprit was the PSA retrojet.



Make something Idiot-proof, and the Universe will make a more inept idiot.
User currently onlineB6JFKH81 From United States of America, joined Mar 2006, 2891 posts, RR: 7
Reply 40, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 3711 times:

Quoting airproxx (Reply 29):
What happens if, say, I'm one of your airline employees, and I think I have a great idea to submit.... Can I show it to someone? Or is it too seriously considered to take some time to see some geek paintings ? Just a thought though, I didn't say I have a great livery design to show you right now!

I'm not completely sure on that as I am on the technical side of things. For the last 2 years I was THE person that inspected the paint job on every aircraft in the fleet, filled out the survey (which I designed LOL), crunched numbers into a spreadsheet to track trends and make into a pretty presentation for the higher-ups to decide what planes get painted the next year and in what order.

BUT, I will say that I think it greatly depends on the culture of the airline itself. Here at B6, we have names for each aircraft, and all those names were made up by the crewmembers in the company. We even have a special tail design (building blocks) on N587JB that was designed by an everyday crewmember (not Marketing or Brand Management) and he won the "design a tail" contest. Here is the winner with his tail:



We are quite the open company and suggestions flow freely. Other airlines may not be the same case. So I guess to answer your question, it really depends on the culture of the airline itself, and how open they are to suggestions. If you have a good, solid business case behind the idea though, it's worth a shot!

~H81



"If you do not learn from history, you are doomed to repeat it"
User currently offlineyankeejuliet From Jamaica, joined Sep 2008, 204 posts, RR: 0
Reply 41, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 3580 times:
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[quote=B6JFKH81,reply=40]
Great culture, naming of aircraft is an excellent idea. This was done at JM in honor of various Jamaican towns with historical values. Tail designs can be quite attractive. Many observation decks should be re-opened with heightened security if necessary, and this move could employ more people to operate food and souvenir outlets. The public would become more knowledegable of avaition and increase awareness of air travel. These moves will justify the need for liveries.


User currently offlineN766UA From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 8269 posts, RR: 23
Reply 42, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 3345 times:

I don't get it. The OP seriously thinks airline liveries were created for and exist solely to appease planespotters on observation decks?


This Website Censors Me
User currently offlineflyingalex From Germany, joined Jul 2010, 1016 posts, RR: 0
Reply 43, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 3279 times:

Quoting Semaex (Reply 19):
I heard of a recent invention called Secundary Radar the other day. Uses Sierra-Transponders and stuff to make identification of aircraft inflight and on the ground a lot easier or even possible without having to see them. For example when it's dark, the plane is far away or the weather is misty

The problem with secondary radar is that it's expensive. Not very many airports have it yet.

Also, the pilots in the various aircraft don't have it either, and taxi instructions are often given with reference to other aircraft ("follow the BA A320", "give way to United 767", "behind landing KLM 737, line up runway 28, behind", etc.).

Quoting ardian (Reply 27):
"Business without advertising is like winking to a girl in the dark. You know you're doing it, but nobody else does."
(Patsy Stone in AbFab, although it originates from Stuart Henderson )

Love it!  



Public service announcement: "It's" = "it is". To indicate posession, write "its." Looks wrong, but it's correct grammar
User currently offlineYYZYYT From Canada, joined Apr 2005, 955 posts, RR: 0
Reply 44, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 3043 times:

Quoting airproxx (Reply 20):
Quoting Semaex (Reply 19):
Somebody mentioned that pax don't care about the livery. I think different on the matter. It's a whole lot of a deal to the people whether they board a "premium" carrier or a random airline - and the proof of doing so is usually a photo on facebook with the according - unique and well-known - livery of the respective carrier.

Same opinion here. Branding and airplanes colour are all about marketing, and Airline Liveries remain a very important part of the process...

Agreed. If the image of the brand on the airplane doesn't matter, why do all airlines feature a picture of their "best" aircraft in flight? it's an image that evokes travel to faraway and exotic places, of course you want to associate that emotion with your brand.

And what about the impression created by a "show of force" at an airport, where you see endless lines of identical branded tails, stretching into the distance? I'm thinking of the line of BA 747 tails at LHR T4 (is there anyone else here who finds - or found, - that to be a damned impressive sight?)... could there be a better way to say THIS is the airline that can get you there, wherever "there" is?


User currently offline777way From Pakistan, joined Dec 2005, 5716 posts, RR: 4
Reply 45, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 3020 times:

Quoting N766UA (Reply 42):
I don't get it. The OP seriously thinks airline liveries were created for and exist solely to appease planespotters on observation decks?

Worse than that he seems be suggesting liveries should go.

Quoting YYZYYT (Reply 44):
I'm thinking of the line of BA 747 tails at LHR T4 (is there anyone else here who finds - or found, - that to be a damned impressive sight?)...

Seen that in pics here, fantastic look.


User currently offlineEaglePower83 From United States of America, joined Oct 2011, 236 posts, RR: 0
Reply 46, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 2794 times:

I would venture to guess that most everyday people DO care about the livery and appearance of the airplane they're flying on.
Most "flying rubes" will go for the cheaper ticket, but when they're sitting at their gate, looking at the aluminum tube they're getting on, and it's got plain, shoddy, dirty looking paint, they'd likely be quite hesitant to book that airline again.

That's why SMI/J painted the UA battleship planes first, right away. They looked like crap, and likely scared some people.
Doesn't help your brand much, when you got a plane that looks like it has skin cancer.


User currently offlineinfinit From Singapore, joined Jul 2008, 569 posts, RR: 1
Reply 47, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 2714 times:

Even if it is post-purchase, many still look out the window at lounges or out the aerobridges at boarding. Think of these airlines- United, Southwest, KLM or Thai.. I bet the first mental image you had was of their liveries. That's its marketing and branding importance. It conjures up a mental image and turns something as intangible as an air transport service into a tangible product.

Some years back SQ insisted on using their Keris logo on the tail of their StarA-scheme aircraft rather than the StarA logo. They threatened to leave StarA otherwise.


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Quoting B6JFKH81 (Reply 24):

Well said!


User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15744 posts, RR: 27
Reply 48, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 2647 times:

Quoting EaglePower83 (Reply 46):
Most "flying rubes" will go for the cheaper ticket, but when they're sitting at their gate, looking at the aluminum tube they're getting on, and it's got plain, shoddy, dirty looking paint, they'd likely be quite hesitant to book that airline again.

That's true, but in that respect it matters more to have a plane that doesn't look bad rather than one that looks good. Airlines are realizing that, so you see Finnair and JAL for example going to exceedingly simple, or boring, paint schemes.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlinecgnnrw From Germany, joined May 2005, 1156 posts, RR: 2
Reply 49, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 2543 times:

Quoting Ben175 (Reply 22):
It really frustrates me when people on this site believe that the average person with no substantial aviation interest can show no knowledge or comprehension of the airline marketing and branding. It's pretty much saying aviation geeks can't tell the difference between a Daewoo and a Maserati, or Wal Mart and Nordstrum for example. I'd actually argue that to the vast majority, air travel is an interesting conversation and liveries, aircraft products, aircraft types/age, different flying experiences etc are commonly discussed amongst people.

I agree 100%.

Two short stories: In the 1990s I often flew KLM to the States when they still served BWI. One time I was met by my dad and my little nephew and when I came through the exit my nephew said "we saw you land in that big blue plane" (it was a B747). The next timeI flew home I was asked "so, does KLM still fly blue planes?" Then once I flew NW into PHL and on the way home my dad asked if there was a difference flying on a NW DC-10 or KL B747.

Another trip back to the US took me to PHL on LH. Some friends were taking me back to the airport and as we were approaching the parking garage someone said "well, there's a huge Lufthansa 747 still sitting there so it looks like we got you here on time.

So I agree the general public probably does know more about airlines, paint schemes, etc.



A330 man.
User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 19712 posts, RR: 58
Reply 50, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 2510 times:

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 4):
Branding is still important but primarily in advertising, websites etc., not on the aircraft itself. By the time people see the aircraft they've already made their purchase decision, and even if they haven't, it's doubtful the livery will have much if any impact on the customer's choice of carrier.

Really? The only aircraft you ever see is the one you're about to board when you're going to fly? You never see airliners in other contexts? You never see them flying over your house? You never see them landing and taking off on the way to the airport? You never see other airlines when you are at the airport? An airliner is a huge flying billboard and airlines who don't use them as such are being very stupid.

That branding is important because, although you might have already bought your ticket aboard AA for this trip, AA wants to remind you where you are and who you are flying with so that you will think about using AA for your next trip.

LH is masterful at this. From the moment you check in at the airport, you are surrounded by LH branding. Their trademark mustard yellow is everywhere. Their roundel appears on almost every otherwise blank wall. When you walk onto the aircraft, the corporate colors and roundel are everywhere you look. They do a very good job of making sure that their passengers "get" that they are flying LH.

You might think that none of this "convinces" people to purchase LH's product, but it certainly does. The last Coke billboard you saw most likely just had Coca-Cola's corporate logo on it in huge letters. They don't need to sell you their product; they need only remind you that it exists.


User currently offlineOA260 From Ireland, joined Nov 2006, 26999 posts, RR: 57
Reply 51, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 2467 times:

Quoting Ben175 (Reply 22):
I'd actually argue that to the vast majority, air travel is an interesting conversation and liveries, aircraft products, aircraft types/age, different flying experiences etc are commonly discussed amongst people.

Exactly 100% agree. You would be surprised how many people not connected to travel/aviation remember and know the smallest of detail when they have been on a flight. Especially these days.

Liveries are still very much an important aspect of brand awareness and product. It sets carriers apart and often with a brand comes the perception of reliability and quality or not as the case may be.


User currently offlineavion660 From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2007, 212 posts, RR: 0
Reply 52, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 2383 times:

Quoting YYZYYT (Reply 44):
And what about the impression created by a "show of force" at an airport, where you see endless lines of identical branded tails, stretching into the distance? I'm thinking of the line of BA 747 tails at LHR T4 (is there anyone else here who finds - or found, - that to be a damned impressive sight?)... could there be a better way to say THIS is the airline that can get you there, wherever "there" is?

Absolutely ... it does carry a certain weight; a message of corporate strength, and global coverage ...


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There are probably similar shots of LH at FRA, and I know that I've been impressed standing on the observation deck at AMS at seeing all that pale blue everywhere.. another airline that clearly values its brand.

[Edited 2013-04-02 11:15:37]

User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 25338 posts, RR: 22
Reply 53, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks ago) and read 2290 times:

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 50):
Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 4):
Branding is still important but primarily in advertising, websites etc., not on the aircraft itself. By the time people see the aircraft they've already made their purchase decision, and even if they haven't, it's doubtful the livery will have much if any impact on the customer's choice of carrier.

Really? The only aircraft you ever see is the one you're about to board when you're going to fly? You never see airliners in other contexts? You never see them flying over your house? You never see them landing and taking off on the way to the airport? You never see other airlines when you are at the airport? An airliner is a huge flying billboard and airlines who don't use them as such are being very stupid.

That branding is important because, although you might have already bought your ticket aboard AA for this trip, AA wants to remind you where you are and who you are flying with so that you will think about using AA for your next trip.

LH is masterful at this. From the moment you check in at the airport, you are surrounded by LH branding. Their trademark mustard yellow is everywhere. Their roundel appears on almost every otherwise blank wall. When you walk onto the aircraft, the corporate colors and roundel are everywhere you look. They do a very good job of making sure that their passengers "get" that they are flying LH.

You might think that none of this "convinces" people to purchase LH's product, but it certainly does. The last Coke billboard you saw most likely just had Coca-Cola's corporate logo on it in huge letters. They don't need to sell you their product; they need only remind you that it exists.

I completely agree with everything you say except I disagree that the livery on the aircraft itself is very important. I just don't think that has much if any impact on purchase decisions, and even the other branding elements have less influence now than in the past, with price having become the most important factor for most people.

I fly LH quite often, including just last month GVA-TXL-GVA, but I only chose LH on that trip because they had by far the lowest fare, not because of their livery.


User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 19712 posts, RR: 58
Reply 54, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks ago) and read 2285 times:

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 53):
I completely agree with everything you say except I disagree that the livery on the aircraft itself is very important. I just don't think that has much if any impact on purchase decisions, and even the other branding elements have less influence now than in the past, with price having become the most important factor for most people.

It has the same impact on purchase decisions that seeing the company logo on a random billboard on the freeway or at the airport does.


User currently onlineBraybuddy From Ireland, joined Aug 2004, 5729 posts, RR: 31
Reply 55, posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 2114 times:

Quoting YYZYYT (Reply 44):
And what about the impression created by a "show of force" at an airport, where you see endless lines of identical branded tails, stretching into the distance? I'm thinking of the line of BA 747 tails at LHR
Quoting 777way (Reply 45):
Seen that in pics here, fantastic look.
Quoting avion660 (Reply 52):
Absolutely ... it does carry a certain weight; a message of corporate strength, and global coverage ...

Probably the main reason I much prefer the current BA livery over the old Landor one. The tail is simpler and bolder and stands out by a mile, even from a distance. The BA line-up is the single most impressive sight landing at LHR.


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