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China Southern - Longhaul Hurting; Might Dump Fcl  
User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 25748 posts, RR: 50
Posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 14563 times:

Maybe not a surprise, but the high profile expansion with China Southern and receipt of A380 has not achieved the companies desired results per its CEO

While loads are strong, yield are low, and he terms long haul operations as "very difficult".

One area being explored is removing first class product which would also align the carrier with recent national austerity climate in China.
While economy products have sold satisfactorily, the carrier feels considerable pressure in first class such on routes to LAX.

Story:
http://centreforaviation.com/analysi...as-new-government-austerity-103059

I guess such moves would make sense - Chinese carriers have always been weak in international marketing and their premium products compared to foreign carriers, so in an environment where more and more airlines continue to shrink or eliminate first class, it stands to reason Chinese carriers should also be part of the movement.

Also suppose CZ with its Guangzhou base would especially be vulnerable as it lacks benefits of more the upscale demand that markets like Beijing and Shanghai can drive.


From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
40 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently onlineMaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 17661 posts, RR: 46
Reply 1, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 14433 times:

That's kinda what you get when your fleet planning is state planning. Chinese carriers aren't particularly good at anything; of course they'd quickly get in shape if they were allowed to compete and the state pulled back but that is not going to happen any time soon.


E pur si muove -Galileo
User currently offlinelightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 13260 posts, RR: 100
Reply 2, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 14197 times:
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Quoting LAXintl (Thread starter):
One area being explored is removing first class product

I never understood why CZ had a 1st class product. To sell it, one must be one of the top premium airlines in the world and that usually means hubbing at a top premium market (London, Frankfurt, etc.)

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 1):
That's kinda what you get when your fleet planning is state planning.

   While I'm a huge A380 fan, CZ wasn't ready. Time to take off the training wheels and let the Chinese airlines 'Duke it out.' Everyone will benefit in the long run.

Lightsaber



Societies that achieve a critical mass of ideas achieve self sustaining growth; others stagnate.
User currently offlineMCOGVADCA From China, joined Oct 2006, 446 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 13846 times:

They are HEAVILY discounting their First and Business class products. I just booked ICN-CAN-LAX-CAN-ICN in business for $2000 US.

However, I think they might be jumping the gun on dumping first class; right now, a significant factor as to why high-end travelers aren't opting for CZ is the reputation of Chinese carriers' premium products as substandard at best, shoddy at worst. That being said, initial reviews of the A380's soft product have been fantastic. Perhaps, once more discerning customers realize that the new CZ first and business seats are nothing like that of the old CZ, first might gain some traction.



12 months:pvg hkg bkk doh mxp nce zrh iah lhr gva iad clt lax nrt sin mnl ceb del jai gay vns szx zuh mfm icn can
User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 25748 posts, RR: 50
Reply 4, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 13483 times:

Looking at CZ A380 seat map if they dump F class they can probably easily add 40+ economy seats in its place.

For the A330 and B777, the same thing. Rebrand the zone as business class instead, or add more things like premium economy seats instead.

Quoting MCOGVADCA (Reply 3):
They are HEAVILY discounting their First and Business class products. I just booked ICN-CAN-LAX-CAN-ICN in business for $2000 US.

Certainly not helping the yields the CEO is complaining about.

The same happens here in the US. Even online distribution options like Expedia sometimes come up with some bizarrely low premium fares on CZ.



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlinedavidho1985 From Hong Kong, joined Oct 2012, 375 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 13274 times:
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CA has intention to lease 2 A380 from CZ.

User currently offlineTC957 From UK - England, joined May 2012, 912 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 11515 times:

That to me seems a great move and hopefully leads eventually to CA ordering their own A380's. Wonder if MU might be thinking of leasing a couple as well ?

User currently offlineIndianicWorld From Australia, joined Jun 2001, 2991 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 11367 times:

Leasing the A380s to CA will be a much wiser move. They have the route authorities to operate from PEK and PVG, the former being where CZ wanted to operate from.

Just why they had First in their aircraft makes no sense. Strange decision but likely one dictated upon them by others at the time. Making a move to reconfigure their aircraft may make it easier to make routes work.


User currently offlinejustinlee From China, joined Aug 2012, 331 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 11318 times:

Quoting LAXintl (Thread starter):
Also suppose CZ with its Guangzhou base would especially be vulnerable as it lacks benefits of more the upscale demand that markets like Beijing and Shanghai can drive.

True. Guangzhou is a large domestic hub indeed, but has very little premium traffic. Even the nearby Shenzhen has better premium demand.

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 2):
I never understood why CZ had a 1st class product. To sell it, one must be one of the top premium airlines in the world and that usually means hubbing at a top premium market (London, Frankfurt, etc.)

I just checked the recent booking for CAN-LAX.

CZ327 CAN-LAX Available Seats C:70 Y:424 (No F!)
3-31 25/410
4-1 24/379
4-2 26/407

CZ328 LAX-CAN Available Seats C:70 Y:412
3-31 26/330
4-1 20/372
4-2 23/340


User currently offlineG-CIVP From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2001, 1331 posts, RR: 10
Reply 9, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 10879 times:

So does this mean we could see the first A380 disposal to another operator?

User currently offlinecovert From Ghana, joined Oct 2001, 1452 posts, RR: 2
Reply 10, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 10867 times:

Quoting MCOGVADCA (Reply 3):
I just booked ICN-CAN-LAX-CAN-ICN in business for $2000 US.

Excellent pricing. I just dummy booked the ICN-LAX roundtrip in C. A consistent $2110 USD all around. It's a pity that this J fare on CZ doesn't earn MQMs on Delta, or else I would have already done a mileage run!



thank goodness for TCAS !
User currently offlineAnsettB727 From Australia, joined Mar 2004, 225 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 9722 times:

My travel agent, part of a world-wide chain, says they have had very bad feedback re; longhaul on many of the Chinese airlines, and they now won't book on them.

Marketing to western people needs the input of a westerner, and the copywriting must be checked by a native-speaker. Some of the examples I have come across in both Australia and the UK make you do a double-take because it's just not idiomatic English. If they can't write properly in English on a long-planned piece of advertising, I do wonder what their on-board experience is going to be like.

Like Chinese cars, give them 10 - 15 years, and maybe you'll find me on board. It's cheap, but I think it's a case of getting what you pay for.


User currently offlinemercure1 From French Polynesia, joined Jul 2008, 1605 posts, RR: 2
Reply 12, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 9028 times:

What happen with plan to use A380 to Paris from PEK ?

It seems CZ grow rapidly overseas flights without proper market need behind it.


User currently offlinejfk777 From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 8428 posts, RR: 7
Reply 13, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 8035 times:
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China Southern is flying A380's to LAX, is there a reason they do not fly them to Sydney since its seems almost any airline with A380 does ?

User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 25748 posts, RR: 50
Reply 14, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 7890 times:

Quoting covert (Reply 10):
Excellent pricing. I just dummy booked the ICN-LAX roundtrip in C. A consistent $2110 USD all around. It's a pity that this J fare on CZ doesn't earn MQMs on Delta, or else I would have already done a mileage run!

The A380 is simply too much capacity from LAX.

CZ took a a massive leap from year after year of 60% load factors on the 777 to double the size using the A380.

You can clearly see they are trashing fares to fill seats. Even in economy they have continued to offer $760 (380 o/w) tickets to various places in Asia when competitors are often in the $1200 range. A while back they were actually selling unheard of $600 tickets to HKG.

Quoting mercure1 (Reply 12):
What happen with plan to use A380 to Paris from PEK ?

Seems that idea is still stalled as CZ and CA can't come to an agreement.

Story from last week.

China airlines in deadlock over A380s
http://www.scmp.com/business/china-b...china-airlines-deadlock-over-a380s

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 13):
China Southern is flying A380's to LAX, is there a reason they do not fly them to Sydney since its seems almost any airline with A380 does ?

Dont know how accurate this is, but according to below link from a few weeks ago, CZ is looking to bring the type to SYD by Oct/Nov as part of its attempt to capture Europe - Australia traffic via CAN.

China Southern A380 for Sydney looks more likely
http://blogs.crikey.com.au/planetalk...a380-for-sydney-looks-more-likely/

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From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlinejfk777 From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 8428 posts, RR: 7
Reply 15, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 7480 times:
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Quoting LAXintl (Reply 14):
Quoting jfk777 (Reply 13):China Southern is flying A380's to LAX, is there a reason they do not fly them to Sydney since its seems almost any airline with A380 does ?
Dont know how accurate this is, but according to below link from a few weeks ago, CZ is looking to bring the type to SYD by Oct/Nov as part of its attempt to capture Europe - Australia traffic via CAN.

Singapore Airlines and Emirates fly many A380 daily to Sydney, they are the biggest A380 operators. Qantas obviously does too.


User currently onlineMaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 17661 posts, RR: 46
Reply 16, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 7394 times:

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 15):

Singapore Airlines and Emirates fly many A380 daily to Sydney, they are the biggest A380 operators. Qantas obviously does too.

I'm skeptical that anyone anywhere along the kangaroo route is making any money longhaul to Australia.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 14):
CZ is looking to bring the type to SYD by Oct/Nov as part of its attempt to capture Europe - Australia traffic via CAN.

Probably just a case of monkey see, monkey do, but it'll likely lose less money than CANLAX.



E pur si muove -Galileo
User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 25748 posts, RR: 50
Reply 17, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 6913 times:

CAPA has interesting long story about A380 at CZ and the challenge the carrier faces deploying the A380 which have become a financial burden having accumulated losses the last 18-months.

Redeployement of the type onto more international services continues to be problematic. CZ has still not been able tor reach agreement with Air China for a PEK-CDG service as Air China instead insist on wet-leasing the aircraft instead of a codeshare while the type is deemed too big for other international services to Europe or South Pacific.

Also as we discussed above, in order to fill the LAX services, CZ seeks to offer 6th freedom connections albeit often at very low rates with about 55% of the flight connecting to 3rd countries.

Full story:
China Southern's A380 problems may not be solved by possible Air China partnership
http://centreforaviation.com/analysi...sible-air-china-partnership-103063

=



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlineRara From Germany, joined Jan 2007, 2112 posts, RR: 2
Reply 18, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 6821 times:

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 1):
Chinese carriers aren't particularly good at anything; of course they'd quickly get in shape if they were allowed to compete and the state pulled back but that is not going to happen any time soon.

You mean like US airlines in the last decade?



Samson was a biblical tough guy, but his dad Samsonite was even more of a hard case.
User currently onlineMaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 17661 posts, RR: 46
Reply 19, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 6765 times:

Quoting Rara (Reply 18):

You mean like US airlines in the last decade?

No, the US airlines actually have been leading the industry in terms of dealing with competition, technology, and network optimization. Just look at everything the EU carriers are doing--it's what the US carriers were doing a decade ago. The Chinese carriers just take government ordered planes, stick them in unecessary hubs in government built airports, starting pointless subsidiaries, and it all goes predictably kablooey when they have to compete internationally.



E pur si muove -Galileo
User currently offlinevfw614 From Germany, joined Dec 2001, 4013 posts, RR: 5
Reply 20, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 6409 times:

Just been on CZ flights in Y from AMS to/from PEK/CAN with onward connections to SE Asia. I monitored their fares for quite some time and they were always considerably cheaper than all the competition - be it European, Asian or Gulf carriers.

The Y-product was not too impressive. Food was barely edible, the cabin crew spoke very poor English and was a bit rude sometimes. Seat pitch was okay, IFE did not work properly on one flight (happens with other airlines as well, of ocurse), IFE did not have a working map function (which is, I learned to my surprise recently, the most popular IFE feature of all). Connecting at PEK is very difficult (although I must credit them for providing a CSA who chaperoned those with a short connection through the terminal, immigration, customs, security etc.). An email inquiry to their AMS station before the flights was never answered.

In short: Not surprised to hear about their longhaul troubles. Now I understand that they by now have 5 or 6 A380, but only use them on one int'l route, with the rest of the capacity used on domestic runs.


User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 25748 posts, RR: 50
Reply 21, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 5830 times:

CZ says it will introduce the A380 to Sydney later this year.

Also as part of its "Canton" route of linking Australia with London via CAN, the carrier expects local authorities to soon implement a 72-hour, visa-free policy.


China Southern ramps up expansion
http://www.theage.com.au/business/ch...s-up-expansion-20130414-2htq6.html

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From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently onlineMaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 17661 posts, RR: 46
Reply 22, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 5747 times:

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 21):
Also as part of its "Canton" route of linking Australia with London via CAN, the carrier expects local authorities to soon implement a 72-hour, visa-free policy.

Ha. When your best option for the 380 is to jump into the Kangaroo route, I think you've lost before you started.



E pur si muove -Galileo
User currently offlineN14AZ From Germany, joined Feb 2007, 2759 posts, RR: 25
Reply 23, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 5682 times:

Quoting AnsettB727 (Reply 11):
Some of the examples I have come across in both Australia and the UK make you do a double-take because it's just not idiomatic English. If they can't write properly in English on a long-planned piece of advertising, I do wonder what their on-board experience is going to be like.

I just left China (central China + Inner Mongolia). I saw huge traffic signs with mistakes in the English translation and I wondered that when you invest in such large traffic signs, wouldn't it be appropriate to let somebody check the translation first? Then again, life will go on even with such translation mistakes and - like always - it was a great trip and people were so extremely kind to me (gained almost 3 kg weight because of all these dinners including "Gambej" every minute).

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 21):
Also as part of its "Canton" route of linking Australia with London via CAN, the carrier expects local authorities to soon implement a 72-hour, visa-free policy.

Does anybody have experience with this 72-hour-visa for PEK? I have to use it when travelling back from Vietnam via Beijing to Germany but never did this before and I would appreciate if anybody could let me know how it works and how much it costs (maybe as PM since it might be too much off-topic).


User currently offlinedtfg From China, joined Jan 2013, 78 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 5682 times:

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 21):

CZ says it will introduce the A380 to Sydney later this year.

Also as part of its "Canton" route of linking Australia with London via CAN, the carrier expects local authorities to soon implement a 72-hour, visa-free policy.


China Southern ramps up expansion
http://www.theage.com.au/business/ch...s-up-expansion-20130414-2htq6.html

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So they will operate their double daily CAN-SYD by one 777 and one 380?

I highly doubt the demand would be that high...


25 TheRedBaron : Some questions: Why these guys loose money on the LAX CAN route if they charge 1300 us D roundtrip and KE uses an a380 from LAX to ICN for almost the
26 Lufthansa747 : I believe it's 24h for PEK, 48 for Shanghai, same day connection in CAN. I've done Shanghai twice with no problems, they just ask for your onward tic
27 IndianicWorld : For the SYD route I would suspect it will just go Daily a380 year round. If the demand warrants it, maybe a few extra frequencies can be added each we
28 bennator : It changed as of 01/01/2013. It is 72 HRs at PEK or SHA (SHA/PVG), but still must be an onward connection. I haven't used it, but have used the 48 hr
29 Post contains images huaiwei : From where I am in SIN, airfares on Chinese airlines are relatively high. In fact, the airlines who dump the cheapest air tickets on intra-Asia fligh
30 EddieDude : There was yet another story on Bloomberg yesterday about CZ and CA's inability to reach an agreement to fly jointly PEK-CDG using CZ's A380s. That st
31 nizolidas : I recently flew PEK-FRA on CA's new 77W. The service, seat and food were in no way inferior to the offerings BA/LH/AF etc. have.
32 davidho1985 : No need to suprise. Numbers of mis-translated sign can be find from supermarket to airport in China.
33 Post contains links KarelXWB : CZ is expected to announce the schedule at a press conference being held tomorrow morning, April 27, at the Australian Tourism Exchange conference be
34 rwy04lga : Because he's writing on an airline forum directed at a few hundred planefans and they're spending a LOT of money on signs directed at a LOT more peop
35 Cerecl : Errors are errors and you can't argue with that. There is definitely room for improvement. Hopefully it will come with time. Really? The phrase is su
36 Post contains images rwy04lga : Yep, really! Pronouncing it 'bedge' did not even occur to me. 'Bay' was the correct 'wej' to pronounce it. English has all sorts of odd letter combin
37 Post contains links LAXintl : Yup - here it is - effective October 27th. Chinese super jumbo bound for Australia http://www.ausbt.com.au/china-southe...380-flights-from-sydney-in-
38 Post contains links LAXintl : Here is a story that CZ has given up on trying to reach and agreement with CA to jointly utilize the A380 on routes out of PEK. Besides regulatory iss
39 B2443 : They will flood the market with low fares, which seems to be the way they are doing on the LAX route.
40 planesmart : In which aviation best practices standards for service, technology and competition do US airlines score well? When reviewed by passengers who fly int
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