Sponsor Message:
Civil Aviation Forum
My Starred Topics | Profile | New Topic | Forum Index | Help | Search 
Around-the-World Routes In The 1970's  
User currently offlineTWA85 From United States of America, joined Feb 2012, 221 posts, RR: 0
Posted (1 year 4 months 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 5853 times:

Hello Everbody!

What were some around-the-world routes that were flown during the 1970's by airlines different from all over the world? Is there a source that provides a list of various airlines around-the-world routes in the past?

51 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinetimz From United States of America, joined Sep 1999, 6796 posts, RR: 7
Reply 1, posted (1 year 4 months 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 5788 times:

Depends what you mean by "route".

If you mean a scheduled airliner takes off and flies all the way around the world and lands at its origin point-- those have been pretty rare.

But circa 1971 Qantas and Japan Air had route networks stretching around the world, along with Pan Am and TWA and maybe BOAC. Does that count?


User currently offlineNWOrientDC10 From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 1404 posts, RR: 4
Reply 2, posted (1 year 4 months 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 5780 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

According to a 1970 timetable I have (Sept.1 - Oct. 24), Pan Am flight one departed LAX, flew west, and arrived at JFK with about a dozen stops along the way. Flight two departed JFK, flew east, and arrived at LAX with about the same number of stops. Maybe Pan Am operated LAX - JFK and JFK - LAX flights without fifth freedom rights.   

In 1973, the same flights still existed.

http://www.departedflights.com/PA042973p47.html

Those flights had about forty - five hours of flight time (not including layover time).  Wow!

Good Day  

Russell

[Edited 2013-03-30 13:37:10]


Things aren't always as they seem
User currently offlineTWA85 From United States of America, joined Feb 2012, 221 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (1 year 4 months 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 5713 times:

Quoting timz (Reply 1):
But circa 1971 Qantas and Japan Air had route networks stretching around the world, along with Pan Am and TWA and maybe BOAC. Does that count?

This is what I mean.


User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 24906 posts, RR: 22
Reply 4, posted (1 year 4 months 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 5680 times:

Quoting NWOrientDC10 (Reply 2):
According to a 1970 timetable I have (Sept.1 - Oct. 24), Pan Am flight one departed LAX, flew west, and arrived at JFK with about a dozen stops along the way. Flight two departed JFK, flew east, and arrived at LAX with about the same

However there was an aircraft change at least a couple of times on those flights.

Airlines I can think of that have operated around the world routes at one time or other.

Pan Am
TWA
United
JAL
Qantas
BOAC/British Airways
Air France
Air New Zealand


User currently offlineRWA380 From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3126 posts, RR: 5
Reply 5, posted (1 year 4 months 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 5571 times:

Quoting NWOrientDC10 (Reply 2):
Maybe Pan Am operated LAX - JFK and JFK - LAX flights without fifth freedom rights.

Prior to deregulation and then the NA acquisition, PA did not operate domestic flights where they carried local traffic, except to HI & AK, IIRC.

http://www.departedflights.com/PA042973.html

http://www.departedflights.com/PA042979.html

Check out these PA route maps, one from 73 and one from 79.



AA-AC-AQ-AS-BN-BD-CO-CS-DL-EA-EZ-HA-HP-KL-KN-MP-MW-NK-NW-OO-OZ-PA-PS-QX-RC-RH-RW-SA-TG-TW-UA-US-VS-WA-WC-WN
User currently offlineRWA380 From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3126 posts, RR: 5
Reply 6, posted (1 year 4 months 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 5570 times:

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 4):
Airlines I can think of that have operated around the world routes at one time or other.

Pan Am
TWA
United
JAL
Qantas
BOAC/British Airways
Air France
Air New Zealand

UTA?



AA-AC-AQ-AS-BN-BD-CO-CS-DL-EA-EZ-HA-HP-KL-KN-MP-MW-NK-NW-OO-OZ-PA-PS-QX-RC-RH-RW-SA-TG-TW-UA-US-VS-WA-WC-WN
User currently offlinecedars747 From Norway, joined Dec 2005, 2721 posts, RR: 19
Reply 7, posted (1 year 4 months 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 5545 times:

Trans Mediterranean Airways (TMA) was the first all-cargo carrier to establish round the world services in both directions


Tengo una pasion por la aviacion !لدي شغف للطيران !I have a passion for aviation !
User currently offlinegemuser From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 5621 posts, RR: 6
Reply 8, posted (1 year 4 months 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 5456 times:

Quoting RWA380 (Reply 6):
UTA?

No. UTA operated from Paris to LAX via Asia & the Pacific, it did not complete the link LAX-Paris, that was AF.

Gemuser



DC23468910;B72172273373G73873H74374475275376377L77W;A319 320321332333343;BAe146;C402;DHC6;F27;L188;MD80MD85
User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 24906 posts, RR: 22
Reply 9, posted (1 year 4 months 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 5442 times:

Quoting RWA380 (Reply 6):
Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 4):
Airlines I can think of that have operated around the world routes at one time or other.

Pan Am
TWA
United
JAL
Qantas
BOAC/British Airways
Air France
Air New Zealand

UTA?

Yes, forgot about them. Their around the world service was fairly brief prior to merging with AF.


User currently offlineAzure From France, joined Dec 2012, 610 posts, RR: 16
Reply 10, posted (1 year 4 months 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 5413 times:

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 4):
Airlines I can think of that have operated around the world routes at one time or other.
Quoting gemuser (Reply 8):
No. UTA operated from Paris to LAX via Asia & the Pacific, it did not complete the link LAX-Paris, that was AF.

Correct. But UTA did fly CDG - SFO - PPT - AKL - NOU - CGK - SIN - CDG (with a change of aircraft in NOU). It was defintely one of the few "around the world airlines" !
About UTA, watch this nice video : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wB6W1Q_UakI&feature=player_embedded#!

About Air France : "In 1973, Air France launched a round-the-world Paris, Lima, Papeete, Tokyo, Paris route by Boeing 707. In 1989, AF offered a Paris, Los Angeles, Papeete, Tokyo, Paris service with a 747 "



I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things - A. de Saint Exupery
User currently offlinetimz From United States of America, joined Sep 1999, 6796 posts, RR: 7
Reply 11, posted (1 year 4 months 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 5368 times:

In 1971 PA, TWA, BOAC?, JL and QF all had round-the-world networks. Think Davies said JL quit flying transatlantic 12/72, QF ditto... around 1974? BOAC and TWA dropped the Pacific around that time? So in 1976, PA and maybe Air France-- nothing else.

User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 24906 posts, RR: 22
Reply 12, posted (1 year 4 months 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 5361 times:

Quoting Azure (Reply 10):
Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 4):
Airlines I can think of that have operated around the world routes at one time or other.
Quoting gemuser (Reply 8):
No. UTA operated from Paris to LAX via Asia & the Pacific, it did not complete the link LAX-Paris, that was AF.

Correct. But UTA did fly CDG - SFO - PPT - AKL - NOU - CGK - SIN - CDG (with a change of aircraft in NOU). It was defintely one of the few "around the world airlines" !

Yes, it was the UTA service CDG-SFO-PPT I was referring to.


User currently offlinetimz From United States of America, joined Sep 1999, 6796 posts, RR: 7
Reply 13, posted (1 year 4 months 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 5353 times:

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 4):
there was an aircraft change at least a couple of times on those [PA] flights.

No indication of that in the timetables. In prop days yes, but after 1960 the 707/747 went thru far as we can tell.


User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 24906 posts, RR: 22
Reply 14, posted (1 year 4 months 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 5308 times:

Quoting timz (Reply 13):
Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 4):
there was an aircraft change at least a couple of times on those [PA] flights.

No indication of that in the timetables. In prop days yes, but after 1960 the 707/747 went thru far as we can tell.

I think there was still an aircraft change, except since it was the same type it probably didn't appear in their timetable.


User currently offlineAzure From France, joined Dec 2012, 610 posts, RR: 16
Reply 15, posted (1 year 4 months 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 5304 times:

Quoting timz (Reply 11):
So in 1976, PA and maybe Air France-- nothing else.

Air France for sure. See my previous post (reply 10)



Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 12):
Yes, it was the UTA service CDG-SFO-PPT I was referring to.

  



I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things - A. de Saint Exupery
User currently offlinetimz From United States of America, joined Sep 1999, 6796 posts, RR: 7
Reply 16, posted (1 year 4 months 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 5271 times:

Quoting Azure (Reply 15):
Air France for sure

What year did Air France end their RTW network?


User currently offlinetimz From United States of America, joined Sep 1999, 6796 posts, RR: 7
Reply 17, posted (1 year 4 months 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 5266 times:

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 14):
I think there was still an aircraft change [on PA]

Where? Why?


User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 24906 posts, RR: 22
Reply 18, posted (1 year 4 months 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 5240 times:

Quoting timz (Reply 17):
Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 14):
I think there was still an aircraft change [on PA]

Where? Why?

Probably at points like LHR or FRA and either HKG or HND/NRT, and likely to permit enough time for line maintenance. To send a 707 or 747 all the way around the world with only 60 to 90 minute en route stops might have been difficult, and would have resulted in poor on-time performance as there would have been very little time to make up for delays at earlier stops. By switching aircraft that may have been on the ground for a few hours those issues would be minimized.


User currently offlinegemuser From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 5621 posts, RR: 6
Reply 19, posted (1 year 4 months 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 5139 times:

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 12):
Yes, it was the UTA service CDG-SFO-PPT I was referring to.

Don't remember that one. Got a rough time frame, please?

Gemuser



DC23468910;B72172273373G73873H74374475275376377L77W;A319 320321332333343;BAe146;C402;DHC6;F27;L188;MD80MD85
User currently offlineTWA85 From United States of America, joined Feb 2012, 221 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (1 year 4 months 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 4987 times:

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 4):

What city pairs did these airlines serve along the around the world routes?


User currently offlinegemuser From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 5621 posts, RR: 6
Reply 21, posted (1 year 4 months 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 4902 times:

Quoting TWA85 (Reply 20):

What city pairs did these airlines serve along the around the world routes?

Qantas:
Eastward from Australia:
Southern Cross Route: SYD-NAN-HNL-SFO-IDL/JFK-LHR
Fiesta Route: SYD-NAN-PPT-ACA-MEX-NAS-Bermuda-LHR

Westward from Australia:
Kangaroo Route: SYB/BNE/PER//DRW/later MEL to SIN via JKT/DPS & non stop. From SIN via KUL/BKK/CCU/DEL/BOM to the Middle East mainly BAH but included DAM/THR & others. Then to Europe including (at various times, never all these at once) IST, ATH, FCO, Belgrade, VIE, FRA, PAR & AMS ( FRA being the only current port, although not for long unless there is a change of heart) then on to LHR, & for a short while MAN.

All three routes met at LHR.

Gemuser



DC23468910;B72172273373G73873H74374475275376377L77W;A319 320321332333343;BAe146;C402;DHC6;F27;L188;MD80MD85
User currently offlineAzure From France, joined Dec 2012, 610 posts, RR: 16
Reply 22, posted (1 year 4 months 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 4752 times:

Quoting timz (Reply 16):
What year did Air France end their RTW network?

The Tokyo-Papeete-Lima leg closed on 10 January 1977.



I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things - A. de Saint Exupery
User currently offlineRWA380 From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3126 posts, RR: 5
Reply 23, posted (1 year 4 months 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 4681 times:

Quoting Azure (Reply 10):
- AKL - NOU - CGK - SIN - CDG

According to departed flights this Thurs only service ran PPT-AKL-NOU-CGK-SIN-BAH-CDG 5 stops on a 742 UT/AF

http://www.departedflights.com/PPT83p1.html

I know UT operated a NRT-NOU flight, where did that aircraft come from? At any point did they operate NRT-CDG, or NRT-PPT?



AA-AC-AQ-AS-BN-BD-CO-CS-DL-EA-EZ-HA-HP-KL-KN-MP-MW-NK-NW-OO-OZ-PA-PS-QX-RC-RH-RW-SA-TG-TW-UA-US-VS-WA-WC-WN
User currently offlineClipper002 From United States of America, joined Aug 2004, 679 posts, RR: 13
Reply 24, posted (1 year 4 months 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 4420 times:

Quoting timz (Reply 17):
Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 14):
I think there was still an aircraft change [on PA]

Where? Why?

Probably at points like LHR or FRA and either HKG or HND/NRT, and likely to permit enough time for line maintenance. To send a 707 or 747 all the way around the world with only 60 to 90 minute en route stops might have been difficult, and would have resulted in poor on-time performance as there would have been very little time to make up for delays at earlier stops. By switching aircraft that may have been on the ground for a few hours those issues would be minimized.

Actually we did use the same aircraft all the way around the world. We would use a plane fresh out of a maintenance check and fly it JFK/BDA/JFK in the morning arriving back at JFK at 1605 LT. That would allow just under 3 hours to correct any mechanical issues that cropped up on the first flight. Then it would depart as flt 002 at 1900 LT that evening. Most stops were for at least 2 hours. These particular flights had configurations that were peculiar to the RTW service. In the 707 the a/c was in a 32/97 configuration. Since we only had a fairly small number of a/c configured this way it was virtually impossible to swap out at enroute stops all the way around the world.

Ed



Ed
User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 24906 posts, RR: 22
Reply 25, posted (1 year 4 months 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 4546 times:

Quoting gemuser (Reply 19):
Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 12):
Yes, it was the UTA service CDG-SFO-PPT I was referring to.

Don't remember that one. Got a rough time frame, please?

I believe UTA obtained CDG-SFO-PPT rights in 1986 following a French government policy change that permitted privately-owned UTA to compete with then government-owned AF in certain markets. CDG-SFO was the first route where they competed directly. AF was very unhappy with that change in policy and it prompted AF to launch LAX-PPT service competing directly with UTA which had previously been the only French carrier with rights in that market.

All of that didn't last long as the government's policy changed again around 1990 and the two carriers were merged.


User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 24906 posts, RR: 22
Reply 26, posted (1 year 4 months 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 4546 times:

Quoting Clipper002 (Reply 24):
Actually we did use the same aircraft all the way around the world. We would use a plane fresh out of a maintenance check and fly it JFK/BDA/JFK in the morning arriving back at JFK at 1605 LT. That would allow just under 3 hours to correct any mechanical issues that cropped up on the first flight. Then it would depart as flt 002 at 1900 LT that evening. Most stops were for at least 2 hours. These particular flights had configurations that were peculiar to the RTW service. In the 707 the a/c was in a 32/97 configuration. Since we only had a fairly small number of a/c configured this way it was virtually impossible to swap out at enroute stops all the way around the world.

Interesting. Thanks for the history. Were Pan Am's DC-8s ever used on the RTW service?


User currently offlineAzure From France, joined Dec 2012, 610 posts, RR: 16
Reply 27, posted (1 year 4 months 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 4614 times:

Quoting RWA380 (Reply 23):
I know UT operated a NRT-NOU flight, where did that aircraft come from? At any point did they operate NRT-CDG, or NRT-PPT?

UTA never operated NRT-CDG (nor NRT-PPT).
IIRC NOU - NRT was operated with the DC10-30 that came from LAX - PPT - AKL and later from SFO - PPT - AKL.
But Viscount724 seems to know the story quite well and can correct me if I am wrong.



I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things - A. de Saint Exupery
User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 24906 posts, RR: 22
Reply 28, posted (1 year 4 months 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 4546 times:

Quoting Azure (Reply 27):
Quoting RWA380 (Reply 23):
I know UT operated a NRT-NOU flight, where did that aircraft come from? At any point did they operate NRT-CDG, or NRT-PPT?

UTA never operated NRT-CDG (nor NRT-PPT).
IIRC NOU - NRT was operated with the DC10-30 that came from LAX - PPT - AKL and later from SFO - PPT - AKL.
But Viscount724 seems to know the story quite well and can correct me if I am wrong.

Took a look at UTA's June 1979 timetable here. See page 5 (click pages to enlarge).
http://timetableimages.com/ttimages/ut2/ut79/

At that time it looks like the 1 x week NOU-NRT-NOU service used a DC-10 that came from Europe. Looking at the flight routings and days of operation I'm guessing the routing was as follows:

UT566 CDG-BAH-SIN-JKT-NOU, dep. CDG Sunday, arr. NOU Tuesday morning
UT533 NOU-NRT, dep NOU Tuesday night, arr. NRT Wednesday morning
UT532 NRT-NOU, dep. NRT Wednesday night, arr. NOU Thursday morning
UT563 NOU-SIN-BAH-CDG, dep. NOU Thursday afternoon, arr. CDG Friday morning

I note the NOU-NRT-NOU flights operated all-Y. I guess they sold the F class seats as Y on that route.

[Edited 2013-03-31 15:22:34]

User currently offlineRWA380 From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3126 posts, RR: 5
Reply 29, posted (1 year 4 months 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 4398 times:

Quoting Azure (Reply 27):
UTA never operated NRT-CDG (nor NRT-PPT).

I was almost 100% positive someone before TN had operated a NRT-PPT n/s



AA-AC-AQ-AS-BN-BD-CO-CS-DL-EA-EZ-HA-HP-KL-KN-MP-MW-NK-NW-OO-OZ-PA-PS-QX-RC-RH-RW-SA-TG-TW-UA-US-VS-WA-WC-WN
User currently offlineAR385 From Mexico, joined Nov 2003, 6138 posts, RR: 30
Reply 30, posted (1 year 4 months 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 4327 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting gemuser (Reply 21):
Fiesta Route: SYD-NAN-PPT-ACA-MEX-NAS-Bermuda-LHR

I always wondered about that route. Of course the ACA stop was because of the altitude at MEX but was it ever profitable? I would have loved to have taken that flight.



MGGS
User currently offlinegemuser From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 5621 posts, RR: 6
Reply 31, posted (1 year 4 months 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 4219 times:

Quoting AR385 (Reply 30):
I always wondered about that route. Of course the ACA stop was because of the altitude at MEX but was it ever profitable?

Who knows? I doubt it, but then fares were high, so again who knows?

Quoting AR385 (Reply 30):
Of course the ACA stop was because of the altitude at MEX

Only south bound was ACA necessary for technical reasons, but QF chose to stop both ways.

Quoting AR385 (Reply 30):
I would have loved to have taken that flight.

Get in line!      

Gemuser



DC23468910;B72172273373G73873H74374475275376377L77W;A319 320321332333343;BAe146;C402;DHC6;F27;L188;MD80MD85
User currently offlineAzure From France, joined Dec 2012, 610 posts, RR: 16
Reply 32, posted (1 year 4 months 21 hours ago) and read 4078 times:

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 28):
Took a look at UTA's June 1979 timetable here. See page 5 (click pages to enlarge).
http://timetableimages.com/ttimages/...ut79/

Thanks !



Quoting RWA380 (Reply 29):
I was almost 100% positive someone before TN had operated a NRT-PPT n/s

You are correct : AF did in the 70s (see my previous posts)



I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things - A. de Saint Exupery
User currently offlineRWA380 From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3126 posts, RR: 5
Reply 33, posted (1 year 4 months 19 hours ago) and read 3960 times:

Quoting Azure (Reply 32):
You are correct : AF did in the 70s (see my previous posts

OK, Yes, thank you very much for the information, I am not as familiar with French Aviation as I am US, so your insight and informative posts have filled in some gaps that I had in regards to the Pacific operations of both AF & UT.

What I find so amazing is that in addition to those two big carriers, France has spawned several other International carriers that have not made it, but still made an impact in French aviation. Minerve, AOM, Corsair and surely more. I am unaware of any other country in Europe that has been home to so many carriers as France, with the possible exception of either the U.K. or Germany.



AA-AC-AQ-AS-BN-BD-CO-CS-DL-EA-EZ-HA-HP-KL-KN-MP-MW-NK-NW-OO-OZ-PA-PS-QX-RC-RH-RW-SA-TG-TW-UA-US-VS-WA-WC-WN
User currently offlinetimz From United States of America, joined Sep 1999, 6796 posts, RR: 7
Reply 34, posted (1 year 4 months 15 hours ago) and read 3783 times:

Quoting AR385 (Reply 30):
I always wondered about that [Fiesta] route.

I remember reading some mention (around 1963) that the US wasn't allowing QF the frequency they wanted; Fiesta route started 1964 or 1965.

Quoting gemuser (Reply 31):
Only south bound was ACA necessary for technical reasons, but QF chose to stop both ways.

Public timetables usually? always? showed nonstop PPT to MEX. AW&ST 14 Sept 1964 p81 says QF planned just a one-way stop at ACA.


User currently offlinetimz From United States of America, joined Sep 1999, 6796 posts, RR: 7
Reply 35, posted (1 year 4 months 15 hours ago) and read 3737 times:

Quoting Clipper002 (Reply 24):
Most [PA enroute] stops were for at least 2 hours.

I'll check, but I'm guessing a public timetable from circa 1965 will show half the stops an hour or less.


User currently offlinePanHAM From Germany, joined May 2005, 9170 posts, RR: 29
Reply 36, posted (1 year 4 months 14 hours ago) and read 3690 times:

BOAC was mentioned I think but no routing.

Must have been LHR NYC SFO HNL NAN SYD SIN CCU CAI LHR, although I have in my memory that they also flew from HNL vira HND to HKG Not sure if the VC10 was on all segments.

Not on a single flight number, but in combination with a LHR-JNB service and the (I did that myself once) JNB-SEY-CMB-HKG flight and HKG-NRT-ANC-LHR makes it not only a RTW flight but also the extre,me southern and northern points included.

The latter was, of course British , not BOAC and I am a bit unsure if they then (about mid 80s) still operated HKG-NRT, they traffic rights would be given.

[Edited 2013-04-01 09:37:11]


E's passed on! That parrot is no more! He has ceased to be! E's expired and gone to meet 'is maker!
User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 24906 posts, RR: 22
Reply 37, posted (1 year 4 months 13 hours ago) and read 3533 times:

Quoting timz (Reply 34):
Quoting gemuser (Reply 31):
Only south bound was ACA necessary for technical reasons, but QF chose to stop both ways.

Public timetables usually? always? showed nonstop PPT to MEX. AW&ST 14 Sept 1964 p81 says QF planned just a one-way stop at ACA.

I can't find any timetables from that period but it's my recollection that QFdid in fact stop at ACA in both directions for most if not all of their period of operation on that route. They had traffic rights and ACA was a much more popuilar resort destination in those days than now and likely would have been an attractive stopover point on that route where they needed all the traffic they could get. QF also lacked 5th freedom rights on all sectors of that route. For example, they wouldn't have anything more than stopover rights on the NAS-BDA-LHR sectors then as they were both cabotage domestic sectors (the Bahamas was still a British colony then).

The proving flight on the Fiesta Route stopped at ACA eastbound according to the following normally very accurate site covering the QF 707 fleet. See the November 12 and November 26, 1964 entries re the inaugural flights on that route. Interestingly both the proving flight and inaugural used VH-EBM, the last 707-138B delivered to QF just 2 months earlier. That aircraft now owned by John Travolta. QF disposed of it after less than 5 years in service along with their rest of their 707-138Bs, replaced with the more economic 707-338C.
http://www.adastron.com/707/qantas/VH-EBM.htm

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 36):

BOAC (and British Airways as believe they'd merged with BEA before the transpacific routes ended) operated via both the North Pacific and South Pacific. The North Pacific route started first, originally with the Bristol Britannia and soon after switching the 707-436. Routing was LHR-IDL/JFK-SFO-HNL-HND-HKG and beyond via their various routings through Asia and the Middle East to LHR. Equivalent route westbound of course.

The South Pacific route started a little later, originally with 707-436 but switching to the Super VC-10 soon after. The VC-10 was never used on the North Pacific route to the best of my memory probably since it lacked range for the HNL-HND sector. South Pacific routing was originally LHR-IDL/JFK-SFO-HNL-NAN-SYD and then their various routes back to LHR via multiple points in Asia/Middle East. They moved the SFO stop to LAX on the South Pacific route only at some point.

Both routes ended around 1974 or thereabouts, around the same time that QF and JAL ended their similar RTW routes due to replacement of narrowbodies with 747s which would have been far too big on those routes, especially with the U.S. domestic cabotage sectors like LHR-JFK-SFO/LAX-HNL where they could only carry their own stopover traffic.


User currently offlineTWA85 From United States of America, joined Feb 2012, 221 posts, RR: 0
Reply 38, posted (1 year 4 months 10 hours ago) and read 3380 times:

Do any of these airlines that are still operating today still have the rights to fly these routes if they wished to reume these routes?

User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 24906 posts, RR: 22
Reply 39, posted (1 year 4 months 10 hours ago) and read 3359 times:

Quoting TWA85 (Reply 38):
Do any of these airlines that are still operating today still have the rights to fly these routes if they wished to reume these routes?

I expect they all do. Airlines rarely give up rights once they're obtained.


User currently offlineTWA85 From United States of America, joined Feb 2012, 221 posts, RR: 0
Reply 40, posted (1 year 4 months 10 hours ago) and read 3340 times:

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 39):

I expect they all do. Airlines rarely give up rights once they're obtained.

I have never understood why airlines have stopped flying these routes. Yes larger aircraft with longer range have become available. However... Wouldn't it make sense to continue flying these routes in addition to non-stop routes for the purpose of serve the traffic flying between the intermediate points on these routes?


User currently offlinethegoldenargosy From United States of America, joined Sep 2010, 364 posts, RR: 0
Reply 41, posted (1 year 4 months 9 hours ago) and read 3277 times:

April 29, 1973
Pan Am 1
Los Angeles - Honolulu - Tokyo - Hong Kong - Bangkok - Delhi - (Karachi or Tehran depending on the day of the week) - Beirut - Istanbul - Frankfurt - London - New York City

Pan Am 2
New York City - London - Frankfurt - Istanbul - Beirut - (Karachi or Tehran) - Delhi - Bangkok - Hong Kong - Tokyo - Honolulu - Los Angeles

April 29, 1979
Pan Am 1
Honolulu - Tokyo - Hong Kong
Depending on the day of the week:
Hong Kong - Bangkok - Bombay - Frankfurt
Hong Kong - Delhi - Bahrain - Frankfurt
Hong Kong - Delhi - Karachi - Frankfurt
Hong Kong - Delhi - Tehran - Frankfurt
Then:
Frankfurt - London - New York City

Pan Am 2
Houston - New York City - London - Frankfurt
Depending on the day of the week:
Frankfurt - Bahrain - Delhi - Hong Kong
Frankfurt - Bombay - Bangkok - Hong Kong
Frankfurt - Karachi - Delhi - Hong Kong
Frankfurt - Tehran - Delhi - Hong Kong
Then:
Hong Kong - Tokyo - Los Angeles

It's interesting that PA1 & 2 continued into the '80's
September 8, 1982
Pan Am 1
Los Angeles - Tokyo - Hong Kong - Bangkok
Depending on the day of the week:
Bangkok - Bombay - Dubai - Istanbul
Bangkok - Delhi - Karachi - Istanbul
Then:
Istanbul - Frankfurt - London - New York City

Pan Am 2
Dallas/Ft. Worth - New York City - London - Frankfurt - Istanbul
Depending on the day of the week:
Istanbul - Dubai - Bombay - Bangkok
Istanbul - Karachi - Delhi - Bangkok
Then:
Bangkok - Hong Kong - Tokyo - Los Angeles


User currently offlinegemuser From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 5621 posts, RR: 6
Reply 42, posted (1 year 4 months 8 hours ago) and read 3172 times:

Quoting timz (Reply 34):

Public timetables usually? always? showed nonstop PPT to MEX. AW&ST 14 Sept 1964 p81 says QF planned just a one-way stop at ACA.

This is the first comment I have ever heard that suggested that ACA was not normally a stop in each direction. Every public timetable I have seen between 1968 and the end for the Fiesta Route in it showed ACA as a stop both ways.

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 37):

I can't find any timetables from that period but it's my recollection that QFdid in fact stop at ACA in both directions for most if not all of their period of operation on that route.

Mine too!

Don't have time to research further right now.

Gemuser



DC23468910;B72172273373G73873H74374475275376377L77W;A319 320321332333343;BAe146;C402;DHC6;F27;L188;MD80MD85
User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 24906 posts, RR: 22
Reply 43, posted (1 year 4 months 8 hours ago) and read 3169 times:

Quoting TWA85 (Reply 40):
Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 39):

I expect they all do. Airlines rarely give up rights once they're obtained.

I have never understood why airlines have stopped flying these routes. Yes larger aircraft with longer range have become available. However... Wouldn't it make sense to continue flying these routes in addition to non-stop routes for the purpose of serve the traffic flying between the intermediate points on these routes?

Makes more sense to use your alliance partners to serve those points now. Fifth freedom revenues are rarely very profitable.


User currently offlinerocket45 From United States of America, joined Oct 2012, 22 posts, RR: 0
Reply 44, posted (1 year 4 months 7 hours ago) and read 3022 times:

Rocket45 Around the world in 7 days on TWA in 1971.

Day 1 -ORD-JFK 727 ORD-ROM 747 that diverted to BOS due to bomb threat. Passengers slept in closed of concourse all night while TWA crews unloaded each bag on a far distance ramp for inspection. Morning plan was to fly 747 back to JFK to refurbish but unhappy passengers convinced TWA to go straight to Rome. Friend and I got off as no new catering, flight and cabin crew who had been up all night. Not safe? Day 2 - boarded 707 BOS-ORL but was canceled after on board and protected on Air France. AF would not accept our TW discount tickets so stranded in BOS. Rented Ford Pinto and drove all night to JFK. Day 3 - Slept exhausted in motel and boarded 747 for FRA. Engine problem so sat on ramp a couple hours and then flew. Day 4- in FRA controllers slow down but flew delayed 707 FRA-ROM-ATH. Layover Athens. From there flights operated normally 707 ATH-TLV-BOM-BKK-HKG. Layover HKG. 707 HKG-GUM-HNL Layover HNL. 707 HNL-LAX 747 LAX-ORD. First five consecutive meals were chicken, cold, hot and one breakfast a chcken omelet.


User currently offlinemozart From Luxembourg, joined Aug 2003, 2167 posts, RR: 13
Reply 45, posted (1 year 3 months 4 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 2708 times:

Fascinating thread! Thanks to everybody for contributing

Quoting Azure (Reply 10):
"In 1973, Air France launched a round-the-world Paris, Lima, Papeete, Tokyo, Paris route by Boeing 707.

Surely those 707s made some tech stops between Paris and Lima and between Tokyo and Paris. Anyone happens to know what the exact routing was?

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 4):
Airlines I can think of that have operated around the world routes at one time or other.
...
JAL

Interesting. I assume those were not true RTW flights but some eastward routes from Japan ending at some airport that was also the terminal point for a westward route. Is that correct? What was the exact routing, and which aircraft were used for that route?

Technically Lufthansa was also a RTW company as it had flights to Tokyo both via a Western routing (Frankfurt-Hamburg/Dusseldorf-Anchorage-Tokyo-Osaka, B747) and an Eastern routing (Frankfurt-Moscow-Tokyo, B707).

And Varig almost made it: they had flights to the Far East over the North Pacific (Brazil-Los Angeles-Tokyo) and over the Indian Ocean (Brazil-Johannesburg-Bangkok-Hong Kong). If only the HKG-TYO leg was closed they'd be a true RTW airline.


User currently offlineAzure From France, joined Dec 2012, 610 posts, RR: 16
Reply 46, posted (1 year 3 months 4 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 2586 times:

Quoting mozart (Reply 45):
Surely those 707s made some tech stops between Paris and Lima and between Tokyo and Paris. Anyone happens to know what the exact routing was?

Certainly, Monsieur ! The route to Lima depended on the day of departure. For instance, in 1974 :
Wednesday : Paris CDG - Pointe à Pitre (Guadeloupe) - Bogota - Guayaquil - Lima
Thursday / Sunday : Paris CDG - Lisbon - Caracas - Bogota - Quito - Lima - Santiago
Saturday (Seasonal) : Paris CDG - Pointe à Pitre - Bogota - Lima
These flights were operated with a 707.
The Lima - Papeete - Tokyo route (also on a 707) was operated twice a week (on wednesdays and Sundays).

From Paris CDG to Tokyo, AF (like LH) flew both the Siberia route (Paris / Moscow / Tokyo, with a 707) and the Polar route (Paris / Anchorage / Tokyo, with a 747).
On a personal note, my uncle, who had to fly regularly to Tokyo for his business, preferred the polar route, but I can't remember if it was because of the schedules or because of the 747 !
I was too young in the 1970s to remember the long haul flights I made with my parents (mainly to Africa) but in the 1980s, I often flew to SE Asia and I remember enjoying each stop (including the landing and take-off). Flying at this time was much more fun than these direct flights we get nowadays !

Thanks again Viscount24 for pointing out this fascinating website where one can find the old timetables. It has made me nostalgic of a bygone era ! http://timetableimages.com/
This is the kind of "gem" you can find :


(AF network in 1974 !)



I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things - A. de Saint Exupery
User currently offlineTWA85 From United States of America, joined Feb 2012, 221 posts, RR: 0
Reply 47, posted (1 year 3 months 4 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 2506 times:

Is it very hard these days for a unalligned airline like Air Asia to obtain fifth freedom rights to begin around the world service?

User currently offlineAR385 From Mexico, joined Nov 2003, 6138 posts, RR: 30
Reply 48, posted (1 year 3 months 4 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 2473 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting Azure (Reply 46):
Certainly, Monsieur ! The route to Lima depended on the day of departure. For instance, in 1974 :

In the 80s the also did Paris CDG-Cayenne-MAO-LIM with a 747



MGGS
User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 24906 posts, RR: 22
Reply 49, posted (1 year 3 months 4 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 2441 times:

Quoting mozart (Reply 45):
Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 4):
Airlines I can think of that have operated around the world routes at one time or other.
...
JAL

Interesting. I assume those were not true RTW flights but some eastward routes from Japan ending at some airport that was also the terminal point for a westward route. Is that correct? What was the exact routing, and which aircraft were used for that route?

JAL used DC-8s, routing HND-HNL-SFO-JFK-LHR, and then their various routings LHR-HND via Asia. JAL's routing between HND and LHR via the U.S. was identical to the BOAC/BA route. I think both routes ended about the same time when 747s were replacing the DC-8s and 707s.

Route map and promotion of their around-the-world routes from the JAL September 1969 timetable. According to the small print below the first photo, their transatlantic service from JFK to both London and Paris started June 1, 1969.
http://timetableimages.com/ttimages/jl6909.htm

[Edited 2013-04-02 12:59:40]

User currently offlinetimz From United States of America, joined Sep 1999, 6796 posts, RR: 7
Reply 50, posted (1 year 3 months 4 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 2324 times:

Quoting timz (Reply 34):
Public timetables usually? always? showed [QF] nonstop PPT to MEX.

Apparently not-- the 12/64 OAG and several more thru 1971 show stops at ACA both ways.

Quoting mozart (Reply 45):
I assume those were not true RTW flights but some eastward routes from Japan ending at some airport that was also the terminal point for a westward route

Like he said, the DC-8-62 flew Tokyo to London via SFO-JFK; as I recall it was a non-62 London to Tokyo via Asia. Pan Am had a "true RTW" for a short time around 1975, TWA maybe had one for a few months in 1969-70, United in 2001, and maybe BOAC. Don't know of any others.


User currently offlinekellmark From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 691 posts, RR: 8
Reply 51, posted (1 year 3 months 4 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 2185 times:

Quoting thegoldenargosy (Reply 41):
Pan Am 2
New York City - London - Frankfurt - Istanbul - Beirut - (Karachi or Tehran) - Delhi - Bangkok - Hong Kong - Tokyo - Honolulu - Los Angeles

This is a great thread that brings back some great memories. I flew PA2 twice all the way around, once in 1971, and once in 1973.

When I flew it in 1973 it was when the Yom Kippur War was on. But we still landed in Beirut.

I stopped off in London, Frankfurt, Istanbul, Karachi, Delhi, Bangkok, Tokyo, Honolulu, and then LAX. A tremendous trip.

It was the heyday of Panam and the B747.


Top Of Page
Forum Index

This topic is archived and can not be replied to any more.

Printer friendly format

Similar topics:More similar topics...
Air-Shuttles Around The World posted Sun Jul 8 2012 18:28:36 by avi8
Monarchs From Around The World Flying Into UK posted Fri May 18 2012 00:53:19 by Bthebest
Airlines Around The World With Continual Service posted Mon Nov 15 2010 19:07:41 by JQflightie
CX Cargo "Around The World From Chicago" posted Fri Jul 9 2010 17:29:03 by GlobalCabotage
Would A Light Twin Make It Around The World? posted Thu Jun 17 2010 09:12:33 by eugegall
Ramp/Gate Worker Wages (Around The World) posted Fri Jul 31 2009 15:15:46 by Cush
Around The World From PBI posted Wed Jun 3 2009 20:11:51 by CanyonBlue17
Pan Am - Around The World Video posted Tue Apr 7 2009 00:13:31 by LatinPlane
Dash For A Cure - Around The World Flight posted Wed Dec 10 2008 16:23:54 by Dazed767
Around The World Flights- Still Viable Today? posted Tue Dec 9 2008 08:07:34 by RetroLivery