Sponsor Message:
Civil Aviation Forum
My Starred Topics | Profile | New Topic | Forum Index | Help | Search 
United Ground Employees Vote No!  
User currently offlinecle757 From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 1124 posts, RR: 0
Posted (1 year 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 15261 times:

United's ramp,ticket agents and store employees all have voted no to a tentative contract agreement with the IAM..with very little job protection its no surprise!

http://www.iam141.mobi/news.html


Cleveland the best location in the Nation
131 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinesulley From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 524 posts, RR: 3
Reply 1, posted (1 year 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 15061 times:

Excellent (and not surprising) news.


In thrust we trust!
User currently offlinejetmatt777 From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 2763 posts, RR: 33
Reply 2, posted (1 year 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 14628 times:

Glad this failed. The contract was garbage.


No info
User currently offlinezippyjet From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 5478 posts, RR: 13
Reply 3, posted (1 year 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 14602 times:

Cool! Because if they passed it, other airlines would take notice and we'd all be thrown under the landing gear!


I'm Zippyjet & I approve of this message!
User currently offlineVonRichtofen From Canada, joined Nov 2000, 4627 posts, RR: 36
Reply 4, posted (1 year 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 14560 times:

Can somebody give us some coles notes on what the rejected contract offer was?


Word
User currently offlinejetmatt777 From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 2763 posts, RR: 33
Reply 5, posted (1 year 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 14456 times:

Quoting VonRichtofen (Reply 4):

Per the effective date (4/1/13) all but 16 stations would be eligible for outsourcing. Those 16 protected stations would be eligible for outsourcing effective 4/1/16 except LAX IAH DEN SFO ORD EWR IAD.

That was the deal breaker for me.

The pay would stay the same for me (they copied the sCO pay scale) so it didn't bother me. Although we would have lost our yearly pay raises for inflation. Instead we would receive one lump pay increase in 2016. At CO you received a pay raise every June of 2% to account for inflation and cost of living increases.



No info
User currently offlineRyanairGuru From Australia, joined Oct 2006, 5177 posts, RR: 4
Reply 6, posted (1 year 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 14152 times:

Quoting jetmatt777 (Reply 5):
Those 16 protected stations would be eligible for outsourcing effective 4/1/16 except LAX IAH DEN SFO ORD EWR IAD.

Wow! Are you actually suggesting that come 2016 UA could outsource every station except for its hubs?

I understand why that got a no vote, then.

In all seriousness, why did IAM even agree to put this to a vote? Was it just to send a message to management?



Worked Hard, Flew Right
User currently offlinestyle From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2006, 263 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (1 year 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 14063 times:

The IAM is also to blame for the way this agreement was structured. I have a friend in iah who works on the Ramp for the CO side and he says a lot of them are upset at the IAM and not the company for dividing the work groups even more by giving different signing bonuses (which the union conveniently called retro pay) to each subsidiary.

He says the sub-UA employees are upset that certain healthcare plans will be gone and that they haven't been made whole going all the way back to 2005.

The sub-CO people are upset that their pay rates wouldn't even go up in some instances and a 3 year pay freeze until April 2016, and then 2.5% increase. Like a previous poster stated, the sub-CO side has traditionally gotten 2.5% increases every year (during good years), so this pay freeze after the initial bump left some people scratching their heads.

The icing on top for voting no was the huge payday the pilots got, he says a lot of people were insulted by this after the pilots got soo much in their agreement.


User currently offlinejetmatt777 From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 2763 posts, RR: 33
Reply 8, posted (1 year 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 14019 times:

Quoting RyanairGuru (Reply 6):
Wow! Are you actually suggesting that come 2016 UA could outsource every station except for its hubs?

I'm not suggesting it, that's what was written in the proposed contract.

Whether or not they'd outsource every station is debatable and uncertain, but the company would have no contractual obligation to it's employees to keep them. Not much security in that. All the company would be required to do for us is provide 90 days notice they are outsourcing the work. Oh and give us furlough pay.



No info
User currently offlineRyanairGuru From Australia, joined Oct 2006, 5177 posts, RR: 4
Reply 9, posted (1 year 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 13969 times:

Quoting jetmatt777 (Reply 8):
I'm not suggesting it, that's what was written in the proposed contract.

Sorry, poor choice of language by me. I was just checking that I'd read what you had written correctly.



Worked Hard, Flew Right
User currently offlinemalaysia From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 3330 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (1 year 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 13901 times:

I have some friends at UA and one big deal breaker for them was now having to pay Health Insurance, they currently get free family medical and dental HMO as an option. but the new agreement had them paying maybe now $500 to $800 a month for a family. Id hate to be in that position


There Are Those Who Believe That There May Yet Be Other Airlines Who Even Now Fight To Survive Beyond The Heavens
User currently offlinecoairman From United States of America, joined Dec 2010, 115 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (1 year 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 13873 times:

I think the base hourly pay is relatively low in relation to WN's $26/hour wages plus UA is forcing CO's relatively expensive health insurance plans into the new UA. Paying $200/ mo for a crappy Kaiser HMO for two people is not good verses Almost free for pre merger UA now. Plus as noted above, dividing the s-Ua and s-co compensation. I think the IAM IS CLUELESS as to what it's members want. Very sad and unacceptable.


Patience Can Be A Virtue.
User currently offlineHSVflier From United States of America, joined Jan 2008, 118 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (1 year 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 13844 times:

Quoting malaysia (Reply 10):
I have some friends at UA and one big deal breaker for them was now having to pay Health Insurance, they currently get free family medical and dental HMO as an option. but the new agreement had them paying maybe now $500 to $800 a month for a family. Id hate to be in that position

Like the rest of America? No wonder the US airlines cant compete. Big overhead due to unions and subpar product compared to european and Middle eastern airlines. Another reason im going back to Delta, less union power.



Flown DL, UA, CO, WN, LH, TZ, WO, AA, US, LO, HA, PX, NW, KE, AB, QR, LX, EE, 5Y
User currently offlinejetmatt777 From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 2763 posts, RR: 33
Reply 13, posted (1 year 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 13814 times:

Here's the exact wording of the Job Security subpart.




No info
User currently offlineT5towbar From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 542 posts, RR: 1
Reply 14, posted (1 year 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 13789 times:

This is what this garbage is all about:

This TA was garbage from the start. This TA was divisive from the start. It allowed outsourcing except at the 7 hubs till 2016. Express work in the hubs till 2016. Some of the larger stations would be outsourced at that 2016 date like BOS; CLE; etc. In other words: NO SCOPE AT ALL! This would have opened the door for a bad situation for every carrier. Everybody can't move or bump into a hub like ORD or EWR.

Since sUA haven't had a raise since their contract (IAM) and we (sCO) were under the IBT contract, we are supposed to get our last raise for 2013 at 2.5%. So they wanted to use our raise as the bar to set the new scale. But sCO would lose their 1.00 Market Override which was "red circled" in the contract for high cost of living cities. And no raises till 2015 @6%. Bottom line was sCO employees were gaining nothing from this contract. It was a pay cut for a lot of people, myself included. Plus it had "protection dates" which had neglected a lot of people. Good scope like WN would avoid having job protection dates. It's not all about the money..........

The medical was supposed to be based on the deal that the pilots got. But as it will turn out, our costs would be much higher. (IMHO the free medical that sUA got would be lost in any deal anyway)

The company gave a signing bonus of 130 million which was clearly stated as a "signing bonus" in the LOA, but since they did not negotiate retro for sUA, the IAM wanted to dress this payment up as retro for them while sCO only will get 1 percent, and ATO on the sCO side would get 3 percent. That was another bone of contention.

Passenger Service had their own issues like they would create another classification to assist the agents upstairs with a scale between 9 to 15 (top) an hour. That position would undercut and undermine their jobs.

The vote was happened in a very short timeframe (9 days) since the company wanted this done by April 1. A lot of people did not receive their ballots. The company needs this integration (from all of the workgroups), but it won't happen anytime soon.

This deal had to fail, and they have to go back to the table. SCOPE & MEDICAL were and still is the two most important issues that we wanted to be dealt with. We're not a bankrupt carrier, but the're negotiating like we are. We're not asking for the moon, just to protect our jobs from all of these beancounters.



A comment from an Ex CON: Work Hard.....Fly Standby!
User currently offlineT5towbar From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 542 posts, RR: 1
Reply 15, posted (1 year 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 13769 times:

Oh, and I forgot about the Seniority issue. The IAM passed it over to an arbitrator and should be decided by the 15th of April. Well after the contract ratification. That's a no vote right there as well.

The only thing we have in this industry is our SENIORITY.



A comment from an Ex CON: Work Hard.....Fly Standby!
User currently offlineFlyDeltaJets From United States of America, joined Feb 2006, 1843 posts, RR: 2
Reply 16, posted (1 year 3 months 3 weeks 5 days ago) and read 13685 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

I'm leery anytime the union and the company are both pointing out how great a deal they struck. A great deal never fully satisfies both sides at the table. Only one can view it as great.


The only valid opinions are those based in facts
User currently offlineCOSPN From Northern Mariana Islands, joined Oct 2001, 1605 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (1 year 3 months 3 weeks 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 13575 times:

So how long for a "good" contract ?? 2 to 3 years ??

User currently onlineSilver1SWA From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 4769 posts, RR: 26
Reply 18, posted (1 year 3 months 3 weeks 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 13534 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting T5towbar (Reply 14):
We're not a bankrupt carrier, but the're negotiating like we are. We're not asking for the moon, just to protect our jobs from all of these beancounters.

Hey this sounds familiar. Welcome to the club!  



ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
User currently offlineCOEWR787 From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 336 posts, RR: 3
Reply 19, posted (1 year 3 months 3 weeks 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 12985 times:

Quoting HSVflier (Reply 12):
Like the rest of America? No wonder the US airlines cant compete. Big overhead due to unions and subpar product compared to european and Middle eastern airlines. Another reason im going back to Delta, less union power.

Oddly enough the only place they seem to make a killing competing is on the International Routes. It is in the Domestic sector that they have difficulty making money, except of course the couple of known exceptions, a sector where there is no European and Middle Eastern carriers to contend with.


User currently offlinejayunited From United States of America, joined Jan 2013, 887 posts, RR: 1
Reply 20, posted (1 year 3 months 3 weeks 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 11747 times:

Quoting Reply 7):
The IAM is also to blame for the way this agreement was structured. I have a friend in iah who works on the Ramp for the SA)">CO side and he says a lot of them are upset at the IAM and not the company for dividing the work groups even more by giving different signing bonuses (which the union conveniently called retro pay) to each subsidiary.

He says the sub-UA employees are upset that certain healthcare plans will be gone and that they haven't been made whole going all the way back to 2005.

The sub-CO people are upset that their pay rates wouldn't even go up in some instances and a 3 year pay freeze until April 2016, and then 2.5% increase. Like a previous poster stated, the sub-CO side has traditionally gotten 2.5% increases every year (during good years), so this pay freeze after the initial bump left some people scratching their heads

First of all sCO ramp agents have a contract that they ratified with the Teamsters and Continental back in December 2010 and sCO ramp agents have been making $2 dollars more per hour than their counterparts at sUA since that date while doing the SAME job. sSA)">UA ramp employees have been with out a contract since January 1, 2010 and sUA employees did not get a dime or a signing bonus when sCO ramp agents ratified their contract in December of 2010. So it is to be expected that sUA ramp agents would get a bigger retro check than sCO ramp because any raise that they get in a new contract has be be retroactive back to January 1, 2010. To be absolutely truthful if United wanted to be a @$$ they could easily say sCO ramp agents are not entitled to a retro check or a signing bonus because at all. You might ask WHY?? it is because ALL sCO ramp agents are under an existing contract with the company that does not expire till July 1, 2013.

And actually sUA employees have not been made whole since 2002 when sUA under bankruptcy forced ramp agents to take $5 dollar an hour pay cut among other things (I won't go into details about all the sacrifices ramp employees and their families had to make when SA)">UA went into bankruptcy) What happened in 2005 was the company went to court to have all contracts (including pilots, FA, customer service, ramp, RES, stores and maintenance) extended for another 4 years because United claimed they didn't have money to give all of these employe groups raises. So sUA ramp agents have been making the amount of money we have been making since 2002.

United employees are not asking for much we are just asking for our fair share we are asking that the company acknowledge our sacrifices made during all those difficult years. Every since the company emerged from bankruptcy management has not only given themselves raises that have split millions of dollars in bonuses. As the cost of living started to really increase in 2007-2008-2009 I saw employees starting to work 12 hour days multiple days a week to make ends meet. When the financial crisis hit in 2010 and many employees spouses lost their jobs in other fields some United employees had no choice but to work everyday up to 16 hours a day just to be able to provide for their family and keep a roof over their children's head and food on the table. We have had here at O'Hare multiple employees since 2010 have massive strokes, heart attacks, we have people literally die (drop dead on the ramp) because they were the only provider in family who still had a job and to make it they had worked so many hours every day that they literally just dropped dead while at work. All the while people in positions of management from mid level position to the CEO gave themselves raises that totaled in the millions and retired (upper level management) with golden parachutes.

After reading the contract I knew it was trash instead of SA)">UA giving back the $5 dollars per hour that they took from Ramp and customer service agents they only offered a $3 dollar per hour raise then a pay freeze for the next 3 years followed by some crazy bonus. The contract also would leave about 16 medium size stations unprotected come 2016 and that would allow the company if United so decided to contract out the work performed at those stations and no one want to see that happen. A contract is a compromise and the employees are willing to compromise on certain issues but there are certain issues that we can not compromise on.

No one here at United wants to see the company go back into bankruptcy but it is time for United to acknowledge what their non-managenet employees have had to endure financially especially since 2007 when the cost of living really started to rise and give us what we are owed that is all.


User currently offlinegreaser From Bahamas, joined Jan 2004, 1101 posts, RR: 4
Reply 21, posted (1 year 3 months 3 weeks 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 11472 times:

Quoting HSVflier (Reply 12):
Big overhead due to unions and subpar product compared to european and Middle eastern airlines.

Two Issues: I dont think anyone on this forum wishes for ground staff to be compensated in the same manner that the Middle East airports compensate their ground staff, who comprise mostly of foreign nationals from the Indian subcontinent.

Second, you're sick of unions and so Europe is your natural alternate?



Now you're really flying
User currently onlineMaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 17336 posts, RR: 46
Reply 22, posted (1 year 3 months 3 weeks 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 9641 times:

Quoting jayunited (Reply 22):
No one here at United wants to see the company go back into bankruptcy but it is time for United to acknowledge what their non-managenet employees have had to endure financially especially since 2007

Is it though? What leverage do ground employees have? Any strike would mean the outsourcing would happen faster and more broadly.

Quoting HSVflier (Reply 12):
Like the rest of America? No wonder the US airlines cant compete. Big overhead due to unions and subpar product compared to european and Middle eastern airlines. Another reason im going back to Delta, less union power.

It makes you wonder--I get consistently excellent customer service from Lowe's, Starbucks, even Kroger lately, and Skywest flight attendants run circles around UA mainline FAs--and they're paid nothing to do umpteen hops a day in a relatively brutal schedule. I can count on UA gate agents, however, to consistently go out of their way to make life difficult. They're like Lily Tomlin's phone company carrier character, "I just found your reservation, and I deleted it. Cuz I can."

[Edited 2013-03-31 16:12:37]


E pur si muove -Galileo
User currently offlineramprat74 From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 1522 posts, RR: 2
Reply 23, posted (1 year 3 months 3 weeks 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 9982 times:

I haven't had a raise since April 26th, 2009. I can live with the top out pay they offered. Just give some kind of cost of living raise every year. I don't care for them calling the retro pay, a signing bonus. That means it will be gift taxed! I don't like the language about how can they can outsource 50 small line stations the day the contract is signed, and another 16 medium line stations after December 31, 2016. I loved the paragraph about if there isn't a signed contract by 11:00pm Central time on December 31st, 2016. The paragraph about the 16 line stations is voided. I been with United since before ESOP. Not one contract has been ratified on the expiration date ever! We always had to wait 2-3 years for a new contract.

User currently offlinestyle From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2006, 263 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (1 year 3 months 3 weeks 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 9937 times:

Quoting HSVflier (Reply 12):

Who says US Arlines can't compete? Are you really trying to compare a Middle East carrier that is heavily subsidized by the oil rich nation it serves to DL, UA, or AA? If you want to go down the Europe route, look into how often LH or TP or AZ are on a strike or wok slowdown.

Like another poster stated, both the company and union need to make adjustments to get a fair contract for both but this one simply didn't do it for the employees.

Quoting jayunited (Reply 22):

Please do not forget this also applies to above the wing employees on the s-CO side that feel insulted by the disparity of the signing bonus. S-CO above the wing was not represented by a union up until this point and I can tell you many of them looked at this contract and were amazed that they would be paying union dues for things they already had.

Here's my take: Shame on the IAM and shame on UA management for presenting such a deal to its Ramp and Ticket Agents.


User currently onlineMaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 17336 posts, RR: 46
Reply 25, posted (1 year 3 months 3 weeks 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 10234 times:

Quoting ramprat74 (Reply 25):
I been with United since before ESOP.

I don't know how to phrase this nicely, but why? UA is full of people who HATE their job and their airline but are hanging on FOREVER. AA too. Why stay if it's been such a mess for years with so many cuts and layoffs?



E pur si muove -Galileo
User currently offlineramprat74 From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 1522 posts, RR: 2
Reply 26, posted (1 year 3 months 3 weeks 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 10091 times:

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 27):
Why stay if it's been such a mess for years with so many cuts and layoffs?

Because I still enjoy doing the job, and working along side the same people for half my life.


User currently onlineMaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 17336 posts, RR: 46
Reply 27, posted (1 year 3 months 3 weeks 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 10118 times:

Quoting ramprat74 (Reply 28):
Because I still enjoy doing the job, and working along side the same people for half my life.

Fair enough. Are you worried the long term trend is probably to outsource most, if not all of these jobs?



E pur si muove -Galileo
User currently offlineFlyPNS1 From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 6578 posts, RR: 24
Reply 28, posted (1 year 3 months 3 weeks 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 10121 times:

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 27):
I don't know how to phrase this nicely, but why? UA is full of people who HATE their job and their airline but are hanging on FOREVER. AA too. Why stay if it's been such a mess for years with so many cuts and layoffs?

I think for many they are trapped. If you're 45+ years old and have spent your whole career as a flight attendant, ramper or gate agent, you're in a bit of tough position. You don't have a tremendous amount of skills that can transfer to other decent paying jobs. You could try to find another career but that means starting over again which means not only bottom of the payscale, but you'll be lucky to find a job at all given rampant age discrimination.


User currently offlinebeachbum1970 From United States of America, joined Dec 2011, 58 posts, RR: 0
Reply 29, posted (1 year 3 months 3 weeks 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 10070 times:

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 27):
Why stay if it's been such a mess for years with so many cuts and layoffs?

You must have never worked for an airline before. We stay because we've invested so much of our time and energy, basically our whole lives, into building relationships with our co-workers and customers, and building one of the world's greatest airlines. We turned down this contract BECAUSE our jobs were at stake. Heck, we had better job security language in our current contract that was written in bankruptcy!


User currently onlineMaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 17336 posts, RR: 46
Reply 30, posted (1 year 3 months 3 weeks 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 9832 times:

Quoting beachbum1970 (Reply 31):

You must have never worked for an airline before.

I've worked for several, from the ramp to HQ and everywhere in between. Loved them all, and when I started to hate one, I left and got a better job.

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 30):
If you're 45+ years old and have spent your whole career as a flight attendant, ramper or gate agent, you're in a bit of tough position. You don't have a tremendous amount of skills that can transfer to other decent paying jobs

That's clearly the biggest reason--for all the hemming and hawing, cutbacks, layoffs, and paycuts there are some jobs that are compensated incredibly well considering the skills required.

Quoting beachbum1970 (Reply 31):
We turned down this contract BECAUSE our jobs were at stake

I just don't see how this works out well in the long run. I imagine UA and other carriers will double down on outsourcing and now you have a lot of people with minimal skills on the street.



E pur si muove -Galileo
User currently offlineF9animal From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 4987 posts, RR: 28
Reply 31, posted (1 year 3 months 3 weeks 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 9806 times:

I cant believe the IAM reached a TA with that bullcrap! Someone is getting stroked. Did the IAM think you guys would vote in favor of this?!!

I admit, I have to bite my tongue. How can anyone suggest just finding a new job? These men and women have invested years upon years with both UA and CO. They have endured paycuts, tragedy, bankruptcies, mergers, and absolute mismanagement. I think these agents deserve a pat on the back, and a contract rewarding them for all they have dealt with. How many times have these workers watched management enjoy bonuses and pay raises, that were not deserved? I hope UA gets serious, and hammers out a contract worth voting in favor of.



I Am A Different Animal!!
User currently onlineMaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 17336 posts, RR: 46
Reply 32, posted (1 year 3 months 3 weeks 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 9761 times:

Quoting F9animal (Reply 33):
How can anyone suggest just finding a new job?

Because anyone looking for job security in a low skilled position in the airline industry is bound to find the Easter bunny first...



E pur si muove -Galileo
User currently offlineT5towbar From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 542 posts, RR: 1
Reply 33, posted (1 year 3 months 3 weeks 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 9260 times:

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 32):
I just don't see how this works out well in the long run. I imagine UA and other carriers will double down on outsourcing and now you have a lot of people with minimal skills on the street

So just let it become a revolving door no benefit, no pay job then? While management keeps getting bonus after bonus?
Jeff already got paid a 14 million bonus and the merger isn't even completed yet. I call a complete merger when every workgroup is merged together on the same page. As far as I'm concerned, it is still sUA and sCO till ALL of the contracts are completed and the workforce is integrated and bidding together.

This TA was doomed from the beginning, and it is an insult. We can't be a party to our own demise.........



A comment from an Ex CON: Work Hard.....Fly Standby!
User currently offlinejetmatt777 From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 2763 posts, RR: 33
Reply 34, posted (1 year 3 months 3 weeks 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 8995 times:

On the internal website, the company posted a short article about this on Saturday. The "article rating" feature had around 50 votes averaging 4.5 stars out of 5. (Meaning people liked that it got voted down). They cleared out the ratings today.


No info
User currently onlineMaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 17336 posts, RR: 46
Reply 35, posted (1 year 3 months 3 weeks 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 8936 times:

Quoting T5towbar (Reply 35):
So just let it become a revolving door no benefit, no pay job then?

It just seems inevitable; NW 86ed their mechanics pretty easily, I'm not sure how ground employees have more leverage than mechanics.

Quoting jetmatt777 (Reply 36):
On the internal website, the company posted a short article about this on Saturday. The "article rating" feature had around 50 votes averaging 4.5 stars out of 5. (Meaning people liked that it got voted down). They cleared out the ratings today.

You're showin' em!

Quoting T5towbar (Reply 35):
Jeff already got paid a 14 million bonus and the merger isn't even completed yet.

There's plenty of undeserved compensation but outside of a few VPs at the top and up, no one is really making much at any airline outside of the mainline pilots.



E pur si muove -Galileo
User currently offlineT5towbar From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 542 posts, RR: 1
Reply 36, posted (1 year 3 months 3 weeks 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 8910 times:

Quoting jetmatt777 (Reply 36):
On the internal website, the company posted a short article about this on Saturday. The "article rating" feature had around 50 votes averaging 4.5 stars out of 5. (Meaning people liked that it got voted down). They cleared out the ratings today.

Just noticed that one as well.
I also loved the little line: "We believe these tentative agreements are in the best interests of our co-workers and the company."

Yeah right..........



A comment from an Ex CON: Work Hard.....Fly Standby!
User currently offlineFiveholer From United States of America, joined Jun 1999, 1013 posts, RR: 15
Reply 37, posted (1 year 3 months 3 weeks 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 8890 times:

Quoting T5towbar (Reply 35):
So just let it become a revolving door no benefit, no pay job then? While management keeps getting bonus after bonus?
Jeff already got paid a 14 million bonus and the merger isn't even completed yet. I call a complete merger when every workgroup is merged together on the same page. As far as I'm concerned, it is still sUA and sCO till ALL of the contracts are completed and the workforce is integrated and bidding together.

This TA was doomed from the beginning, and it is an insult. We can't be a party to our own demise.........
Quoting T5towbar (Reply 38):
Just noticed that one as well.
I also loved the little line: "We believe these tentative agreements are in the best interests of our co-workers and the company."

Yeah right..........

The company simply doesn't care about the frontline. The people with pride who do the grunt work efficiently and safely.

Welcome to my RR list.



Bring back Bethune!
User currently offlineshuttle9juliet From UK - Scotland, joined Jul 2010, 192 posts, RR: 0
Reply 38, posted (1 year 3 months 3 weeks 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 8869 times:

I find it pathetic..All big company's nowadays, Airlines included just want to outsource,outsource,outsource.
It is becoming a common trend but the unions need to keep fighting.....
All the Airlines want is cheap labour, and big bonuses for inept CEOs
"Pay peanuts, get monkeys"
Once you outsource, standards definitely drop, because nobody cares, they don't work for that airline, they don't get any benefits, they don't care about the passengers.
I've seen it all happen with BA in the UK.


User currently onlineMaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 17336 posts, RR: 46
Reply 39, posted (1 year 3 months 3 weeks 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 8857 times:

Quoting Fiveholer (Reply 39):
The people with pride who do the grunt work efficiently and safely.
Quoting shuttle9juliet (Reply 40):
Once you outsource, standards definitely drop, because nobody cares, they don't work for that airline, they don't get any benefits, they don't care about the passengers.

They don't care about the passengers as it is! I think carriers realize they can get crappy customer service from outsourced agents just as easily as in house with half the hassle.



E pur si muove -Galileo
User currently offlinestyle From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2006, 263 posts, RR: 0
Reply 40, posted (1 year 3 months 3 weeks 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 8836 times:

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 34):

Quoting F9animal (Reply 33):
How can anyone suggest just finding a new job?

Because anyone looking for job security in a low skilled position in the airline industry is bound to find the Easter bunny first...


------------

I guess we only use Southwest as an example when it's convenient? Very good scope and a good paying job, is that too much to ask for these days?

These people work in a high security environment, they have access to aircraft and need to be up to date on regulatory training. Last time I was on UA or any airline for that matter I didn't want somebody that's working around the aircraft I'm flying on, who is loading luggage and cargo, towing the aircraft, to be a minimum wage worker with no benefits or job security. I want somebody who likes his job, strives to make a living off of it and is paid a decent wage with benefits at the end of the day.

Same, if not more goes for Customer Service Agents. These are the front line and the face of the company, the ones that deal with delays and cancellations when things go bad. Again, all I hear when I'm on a UA flight with the promo videos is how they are focused on customer service and investing heavily in it. You want good customer service? You need happy employees and it doesn't come cheap.

Again, like I said above, both the ramp and customer service agents need to realize this is about give and take for a fair deal to get done. This didn't look like a fair deal, especially after all the merger synergies UA keeps talking about. Like others said, it looks like a concessionary deal. Fuel to the fire was what the pilots got, 43% increase in pay over the life of the contract for some.....


User currently offlineshuttle9juliet From UK - Scotland, joined Jul 2010, 192 posts, RR: 0
Reply 41, posted (1 year 3 months 3 weeks 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 8793 times:

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 41):

I can partially agree with you on that one, but you have to ask the question, is why has the staff morale got so low in years?
I guess after years of cuts and concessions, and management still reaping large bonuses it must take its toll on frontline staff?


User currently offlineFiveholer From United States of America, joined Jun 1999, 1013 posts, RR: 15
Reply 42, posted (1 year 3 months 3 weeks 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 8807 times:

Quoting Reply 42):
These people work in a high security environment, they have access to aircraft and need to be up to date on regulatory training. Last time I was on UA or any airline for that matter I didn't want somebody that's working around the aircraft I'm flying on, who is loading luggage and cargo, towing the aircraft, to be a minimum wage worker with no benefits or job security. I want somebody who likes his job, strives to make a living off of it and is paid a decent wage with benefits at the end of the day.

Same, if not more goes for Customer Service Agents. These are the front line and the face of the company, the ones that deal with delays and cancellations when things go bad. Again, all I hear when I'm on a UA flight with the promo videos is how they are focused on customer service and investing heavily in it. You want good customer service? You need happy employees and it doesn't come cheap.

Again, like I said above, both the ramp and customer service agents need to realize this is about give and take for a fair deal to get done. This didn't look like a fair deal, especially after all the merger synergies UA keeps talking about. Like others said, it looks like a concessionary deal. Fuel to the fire was what the pilots got, 43% increase in pay over the life of the contract for some.....

I don't want the sky, I want to keep the job I have and continue to to enjoy coming to work at an ungodly hour to do it.



Bring back Bethune!
User currently onlineMaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 17336 posts, RR: 46
Reply 43, posted (1 year 3 months 3 weeks 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 8788 times:

Quoting Reply 42):
I guess we only use Southwest as an example when it's convenient? Very good scope and a good paying job, is that too much to ask for these days?
Southwest Airlines Ground Employees Picket At DAL (by MaverickM11 Mar 29 2013 in Civil Aviation)

Quoting Reply 42):
You need happy employees and it doesn't come cheap

UA frontline staff is not winning any awards, and outsourced frontline staff at foreign carriers tend to be better. And as I said, an OO flight attendant would run circles around UA flight attendants in terms of customer service, so I don't think a better contract changes much of anything.

Quoting Reply 42):
Fuel to the fire was what the pilots got, 43% increase in pay over the life of the contract for some.....

That's where the money went. They also have lots of leverage.

Quoting Reply 42):
Last time I was on UA or any airline for that matter I didn't want somebody that's working around the aircraft I'm flying on, who is loading luggage and cargo, towing the aircraft, to be a minimum wage worker with no benefits or job security

I think there's so little correlation between safety and pay. If you looked at some of the rampers at US in PHL I don't know that I'd feel "safer" than an outsourced firm. I was a ramper for a while and it was the most fun on the job I've ever had, but I also knew that the job security at the carrier was near nil. Also rampers suddenly went from non union to union, and I can assure you there was zero change in safety.

Quoting shuttle9juliet (Reply 43):
I guess after years of cuts and concessions, and management still reaping large bonuses it must take its toll on frontline staff?

Perhaps, but I don't think they'll ever be happy.



E pur si muove -Galileo
User currently offlineshuttle9juliet From UK - Scotland, joined Jul 2010, 192 posts, RR: 0
Reply 44, posted (1 year 3 months 3 weeks 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 8716 times:

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 45):

You will never get anybody being 100% happy in a job


User currently offlinelucky777 From United States of America, joined Oct 2008, 542 posts, RR: 0
Reply 45, posted (1 year 3 months 3 weeks 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 8208 times:

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 41):
They don't care about the passengers as it is! I think carriers realize they can get crappy customer service from outsourced agents just as easily as in house with half the hassle.

And there you have it. You tried to hold out as long as you could with your earlier comments/critiques but you finally went ahead and bit the bullet and went all-in with that comment.

Why bother asking "Why?" when you had already made up your mind a long time ago that airport customer service workers at the Legacies were/are no better or worse than contractors. Was it really a rhetorical question on your part or were you simply trying to goad someone, a current legacy employee no doubt, into a fight?

You've already made up your mind and see no discernible difference between contract workers and actual legacy employees, which your certainly entitled to. But please spare me your feigned concern about those who still work in the industry.


User currently onlineMaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 17336 posts, RR: 46
Reply 46, posted (1 year 3 months 3 weeks 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 8119 times:

Quoting lucky777 (Reply 47):
And there you have it. You tried to hold out as long as you could with your earlier comments/critiques but you finally went ahead and bit the bullet and went all-in with that comment.

You have to admit, the link between customer service and outsourcing is comical. I'm pretty sure the DOT stats back that up.

Quoting lucky777 (Reply 47):
But please spare me your feigned concern about those who still work in the industry.

You're sensing concern where there wasn't any. I/we've all seen how this plays out many times before. I'm just confused how the IAM thinks they have any leverage in this scenario.

[Edited 2013-04-01 17:22:56]


E pur si muove -Galileo
User currently offlinedlramp4life From United States of America, joined Jun 2011, 927 posts, RR: 1
Reply 47, posted (1 year 3 months 3 weeks 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 8100 times:

So what does this mean for cities like PHX where there are PMUA employees and DGS employees working UA flights?


PHX Ramp, hottest place on earth
User currently offlinecrj900lr From United States of America, joined Mar 2011, 315 posts, RR: 0
Reply 48, posted (1 year 3 months 3 weeks 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 7972 times:

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 45):
I think there's so little correlation between safety and pay. If you looked at some of the rampers at US in PHL I don't know that I'd feel "safer" than an outsourced firm. I was a ramper for a while and it was the most fun on the job I've ever had, but I also knew that the job security at the carrier was near nil. Also rampers suddenly went from non union to union, and I can assure you there was zero change in safety.

You are correct there has been no improvement on safety, and I believe we may be talking about the same thing. Although it is stressed, nothing is really ever done to ensure that proper procedures are being followed. All its about is making sure you make the turn time, and then when something does happen where there is a safety issue or someone gets hurt everyone wants to play monday morning QB and says what they would have done to prevent it. How about doing something before it happens insted of after the fact.


User currently offlinelucky777 From United States of America, joined Oct 2008, 542 posts, RR: 0
Reply 49, posted (1 year 3 months 3 weeks 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 7800 times:

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 48):
You have to admit, the link between customer service and outsourcing is comical. I'm pretty sure the DOT stats back that up.

Actually, i have to admit no such thing. You are the one who has proposed that there is no discernible difference between outsourced work and those who are employed by the airline and actually have skin in the game. And feel free to find those ever-elusive DOT stats that back up what your proclaiming.

You are entitled to your opinions and i can respect that, but you stating the same argument over and over while providing no empirical evidence to back up what you claim doesn't make it fact.


User currently offlineN353SK From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 820 posts, RR: 0
Reply 50, posted (1 year 3 months 3 weeks 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 7673 times:

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 48):
You have to admit, the link between customer service and outsourcing is comical. I'm pretty sure the DOT stats back that up.

United tracks "customer satisfaction" chart on an internal website. For February (most recent month available), the percentage of satisfied customers on domestic mainline flights was literally double that of outsourced United Express flights.




Also, I was told that this TA would have allowed an unlimited amount of part-time positions as opposed to the ratio used today. Can anybody elaborate on this?


User currently onlineMaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 17336 posts, RR: 46
Reply 51, posted (1 year 3 months 3 weeks 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 7553 times:

Quoting N353SK (Reply 52):
For February (most recent month available), the percentage of satisfied customers on domestic mainline flights was literally double that of outsourced United Express flights.

There are so many more variables that go into that though, and don't customers on those flights have contact with UA employees at least on the hub end, if not both ends in major stations? What you'd have to look at is customer satisfaction on mainline flights in outsourced stations versus mainline flights at UA staffed stations.



E pur si muove -Galileo
User currently offlineN353SK From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 820 posts, RR: 0
Reply 52, posted (1 year 3 months 3 weeks 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 7425 times:

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 53):
There are so many more variables that go into that though, and don't customers on those flights have contact with UA employees at least on the hub end, if not both ends in major stations? What you'd have to look at is customer satisfaction on mainline flights in outsourced stations versus mainline flights at UA staffed stations.

Again, the percentage of satisfied customers on domestic mainline flights was double that of outsourced express flights. This is too big of a gap to be explained by an occasional mainline gate agent. Also, at some legacy United hubs the ramp and gate operation are completely outsourced for the express operation (Air Wisconsin in IAD comes to mind). It's possible to fly an itinerary such as SDF-IAD-SAV without ever seeing an actual United employee.


User currently offlineT5towbar From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 542 posts, RR: 1
Reply 53, posted (1 year 3 months 3 weeks 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 7334 times:

Quoting N353SK (Reply 52):
Also, I was told that this TA would have allowed an unlimited amount of part-time positions as opposed to the ratio used today. Can anybody elaborate on this?

That's true. But it seems like the district didn't care. Dues are the same for part-time and full-time employees.

Quoting N353SK (Reply 54):
Also, at some legacy United hubs the ramp and gate operation are completely outsourced for the express operation (Air Wisconsin in IAD comes to mind). It's possible to fly an itinerary such as SDF-IAD-SAV without ever seeing an actual United employee.

That's true at IAD as well. Air Wisconsin (IAM District 142) employees works express flights. But Customer Service on the express side was supposed to be insourced by Mainline.

Quoting dlramp4life (Reply 49):
So what does this mean for cities like PHX where there are PMUA employees and DGS employees working UA flights?

In LOA #3, PHX was one of the cities which was supposed to be insourced. So DGS would get the boot. DCA; LAS; MOC; PDX; SAN; SEA; TPA are cities that were supposed to be insourced since there are split operations in those cities. But they too had the Cinderella clause as well. This is where the scope comes in. These are cities with mainline flights and we should work them. M/L flights worked by M/L employees.



A comment from an Ex CON: Work Hard.....Fly Standby!
User currently offlineThreeWests From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 56 posts, RR: 0
Reply 54, posted (1 year 3 months 3 weeks 3 days ago) and read 7318 times:

As a contract ramper, I worked most of the shifts I was assigned, sometimes reported to work on time, and was shortly promoted to supervisor. When the manager of the airline complained about delays, misloads or whatever, as a supervisor, I shrugged my shoulders and said "tell my boss". You see my boss wouldn't discipline me cause I worked most of the shifts I was assigned and sometimes reported to work on time. Eventually we lost the contract ... but no worries, the new contract company hired me, gave me a new uniform and I continued shrugging my shoulders as a supervisor.


If you can read this your flying too close
User currently offlineN353SK From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 820 posts, RR: 0
Reply 55, posted (1 year 3 months 3 weeks 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 6996 times:

Quoting ThreeWests (Reply 56):
Eventually we lost the contract ...

And I'm guessing you didn't lose it due to performance factors, either. Probably because it was cheaper to "re-hire" people at a different company at first year pay?


User currently onlineMaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 17336 posts, RR: 46
Reply 56, posted (1 year 3 months 3 weeks 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 6978 times:

Quoting N353SK (Reply 54):
Again, the percentage of satisfied customers on domestic mainline flights was double that of outsourced express flights. This is too big of a gap to be explained by an occasional mainline gate agent

The product difference is night and day, so there's no way to ascribe the difference to an outsourced gate agent. At UA for example, explus is a complete joke, the RJs generally are all handled in crowded slums (ie IAD, ORD, IAH, DEN, EWR), people have to give up their carryons, UA has 50 seaters on midcons, and people generally HATE RJ/props to begin with.



E pur si muove -Galileo
User currently offlineRDH3E From United States of America, joined Mar 2011, 1597 posts, RR: 2
Reply 57, posted (1 year 3 months 3 weeks 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 6907 times:

Quoting shuttle9juliet (Reply 40):
Once you outsource, standards definitely drop, because nobody cares, they don't work for that

That's false.

Quoting N353SK (Reply 52):
the percentage of satisfied customers on domestic mainline flights was literally double that of outsourced United Express flights.

below...RJ's will get lower scores, in addition UAX flights are cancelled prior to mainline so that also plays a factor.

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 58):
The product difference is night and day, so there's no way to ascribe the difference to an outsourced gate agent.

Can anyone from UA mgt perhaps share what the satisfaction trend was after insourcing the UAX ATW work at SFO?


User currently offlineT5towbar From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 542 posts, RR: 1
Reply 58, posted (1 year 3 months 3 weeks 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 6829 times:

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 58):
At UA for example, explus is a complete joke, the RJs generally are all handled in crowded slums (ie IAD, ORD, IAH, DEN, EWR), people have to give up their carryons, UA has 50 seaters on midcons, and people generally HATE RJ/props to begin with.

Well you have to remember that sCO pilots had the most restrictive scope in the industry, so there were no 76 seaters at all. So all XE have is 50 seaters, and later came the Q400 (which is a prop that does not violate the scope) sUA had 76 seaters because their pilots lost the 735 flying. Management brought in the 76 seaters to the sCO hubs which violated the sCO pilots scope clause. But all of that is water under the bridge now since the new pilots agreement. So you will probably see more of the 76 seaters, depending on who will be flying them (Shuttle America? Republic?) And how many they can bring in. Of course there will still be 50 seaters, so you will have to live with that fact of giving up your bag.

What I don't understand is the RJ flights hub to hub (ie: EWR to IAD). Due to the volume of connections, you would think that would be a mainline aircraft flight, instead of an RJ or a Q400.

Quoting RDH3E (Reply 59):
Quoting shuttle9juliet (Reply 40):
Once you outsource, standards definitely drop, because nobody cares, they don't work for that

That's false.

Depends on the outsourced company as well. You can get paid more working inside the airport as a wheelchair assistant; or working in a store than freezing your butt on the ramp. So the revolving door continues..........



A comment from an Ex CON: Work Hard.....Fly Standby!
User currently offlineN353SK From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 820 posts, RR: 0
Reply 59, posted (1 year 3 months 3 weeks 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 6827 times:

Quoting RDH3E (Reply 59):
That's false.

Rampers, even in outstations, used to make $15-20 per hour, with great benefits, a pension, and very good nonrev travel privileges. They viewed their jobs as a career. After outsourcing, the same position pays $8 per hour, with poor or no benefits, no retirement, and (in some cases) no travel privileges. A ramper for an outsourced company knows that no matter how hard he works, their ground handling contract will be awarded to somebody cheaper when it's up for renewal. You're saying the outsourced rampers care as as much as the mainline employees used to?


User currently offlinebobnwa From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 6443 posts, RR: 9
Reply 60, posted (1 year 3 months 3 weeks 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 6742 times:

Quoting T5towbar (Reply 35):
While management keeps getting bonus after bonus?

Can you verify that managemen other than very few managers keep getting these bonuses


User currently onlineMaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 17336 posts, RR: 46
Reply 61, posted (1 year 3 months 3 weeks 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 6677 times:

Quoting T5towbar (Reply 60):
Well you have to remember that sCO pilots had the most restrictive scope in the industry

Yes but that's not really relevant--the regional product at CO and UA (and at most carriers, maybe less so at DL and AS) is dreadful to begin with, even in "F". Of course everyone is going to hate it.

Quoting N353SK (Reply 61):
You're saying the outsourced rampers care as as much as the mainline employees used to?

It's unfortunate but it appears the cost benefit analysis says yes. Hasn't AS had outsourced ground at SEA for years now?

Quoting bobnwa (Reply 62):
Can you verify that managemen other than very few managers keep getting these bonuses

'Course not, because then we'd have to retire that meme and put down the pitchforks and fires



E pur si muove -Galileo
User currently offlineRDH3E From United States of America, joined Mar 2011, 1597 posts, RR: 2
Reply 62, posted (1 year 3 months 3 weeks 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 6584 times:

Quoting N353SK (Reply 61):
You're saying the outsourced rampers care as as much as the mainline employees used to?

I'm saying that the rampers that work for OO/MQ etc do a mighty fine job.

Quoting T5towbar (Reply 60):
sUA had 76 seaters because their pilots lost the 735 flying. Management brought in the 76 seaters to the sCO hubs which violated the sCO pilots scope clause.

Of course you mean 70 seaters. 76 seaters were just agreed to in the new pilot contract.

Quoting T5towbar (Reply 60):
What I don't understand is the RJ flights hub to hub (ie: EWR to IAD). Due to the volume of connections, you would think that would be a mainline aircraft flight, instead of an RJ or a Q400.

I would think that the primarily "local" trips could go express without too much difficulty.


User currently offlineslider From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 6785 posts, RR: 34
Reply 63, posted (1 year 3 months 3 weeks 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 6460 times:

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 34):
Because anyone looking for job security in a low skilled position in the airline industry is bound to find the Easter bunny first...

As crudely as you put it, I'd amend that statement to just simply say that JOB SECURITY ANYWHERE IS A MYTH. Period. This whole discussion about job security provisions helped no airline people when the majors and legacies just went through the last wave of bankruptcies, did they?

Quoting Reply 42):
I guess we only use Southwest as an example when it's convenient? Very good scope and a good paying job, is that too much to ask for these days?

WN is actually a good example but perhaps not for the reason you think it is. They're a full blown legacy now too, with CASM problems and a RASM shortfall. They're going to have to make these very hard decisions soon too....

Quoting N353SK (Reply 61):
Rampers, even in outstations, used to make $15-20 per hour, with great benefits, a pension, and very good nonrev travel privileges. They viewed their jobs as a career. After outsourcing, the same position pays $8 per hour, with poor or no benefits, no retirement, and (in some cases) no travel privileges

Yeah, and I remember ramp equipment service employees at NW back in the day being paid $28/hour and many were then working third shift to clean aircraft. That's not sustainable--it wasn't then and should have been addressed years ago before the last BK parade.

point is: past performance doesn't indicate nor guarantee any assurances of future success.


User currently offlinedlramp4life From United States of America, joined Jun 2011, 927 posts, RR: 1
Reply 64, posted (1 year 3 months 3 weeks 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 6381 times:

Quoting T5towbar (Reply 55):
In LOA #3, PHX was one of the cities which was supposed to be insourced. So DGS would get the boot. DCA; LAS; MOC; PDX; SAN; SEA; TPA are cities that were supposed to be insourced since there are split operations in those cities. But they too had the Cinderella clause as well. This is where the scope comes in. These are cities with mainline flights and we should work them. M/L flights worked by M/L employees.

Thank you for the info. My next question would be any idea when these stations will all be fully insourced?



PHX Ramp, hottest place on earth
User currently offlineswa4life From United States of America, joined Jul 2009, 385 posts, RR: 1
Reply 65, posted (1 year 3 months 3 weeks 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 6293 times:

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 34):
Because anyone looking for job security in a low skilled position in the airline industry is bound to find the Easter bunny first...

To say that the ramp is a low skilled position depends on how you look at it. Firstly, working ramp is not for everyone. At the height of the unemployment crisis a couple years ago we would hire on a lot of out of work construction trade workers (carpenters, electricians, etc.) and so many of them simply could not adjust to the pace (both mentally and physically) of ramp work. Add on to that having to endure the excruciating cold of winter and the soggy humid heat of a Chicago summer. I can really only speak from the perspective of Southwest ramp specifically, but we're not just a bunch of bag throwing monkeys. A gate lead needs to keep track of inbound flights that are connecting to your outbound departure to make sure all bags are accounted for (as many as 120 transfers from 40 different inbounds all hitting the ground at about the same time, not counting the locally checked bags), dealing with freight cargo, and load planning it in a way that the aircraft is in trim (southwest loads their planes significantly in both ends to try and achieve a 50/50 load.) all while acting as another set of hands offloading and uploading, making sure the plane has water, power, air, and checking the jet bridge for strollers and gate checks. It's a major juggling act and with the pressure of getting the plane buttoned up for a 25-30 minute turn around. My point is that the seasoned ramp workers who have developed their "skills" to a virtual science are not going to be as easily replaceable by lower paid people off the street as you think. There's a lot of hats that ramp employees wear, lots of initial training, but more importantly after many years of experience that nuance will not be replicated by less experienced lower paid nonvested 3rd party employees. The first thing that the airline will discover is that people simply wont be WILLING to endure the workload for that type of low pay and absence of benefits. The turnover rate will be incredibly high, and training costs will soar. And they'll NEVER achieve having that solid work group of experienced hard nosed ramp workers ever again. That's less productivity, less employee investment in company success, and an infinite state of hiring and training of new employees..


User currently offlineRDH3E From United States of America, joined Mar 2011, 1597 posts, RR: 2
Reply 66, posted (1 year 3 months 3 weeks 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 6191 times:

Quoting swa4life (Reply 67):
as many as 120 transfers from 40 different inbounds all hitting the ground at about the same time

And you guys claim you don't have hubs....  


User currently offlinecoairman From United States of America, joined Dec 2010, 115 posts, RR: 0
Reply 67, posted (1 year 3 months 3 weeks 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 6074 times:


Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 41):

I strongly disagree. I find in general, mainline employees to be more professional, proficient, knowledgable and have more of a professional appearance than outsourced employees of companies such as Expressjet and AMR services.

One Example : In PIT and DAY the CO Express customer service is performed by vendors. I find their customer service and professionalism lacking compared to mainline employees of S-CO. In general, I do find mainline employees in hubs to be more professional and proficient than in out stations that are outsourced.

You get what you pay for.

[Edited 2013-04-02 16:33:54]


Patience Can Be A Virtue.
User currently offlineFlyPNS1 From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 6578 posts, RR: 24
Reply 68, posted (1 year 3 months 3 weeks 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 5998 times:

Quoting slider (Reply 65):
This whole discussion about job security provisions helped no airline people when the majors and legacies just went through the last wave of bankruptcies, did they?

They helped the more senior employees. If the employees had no job security provisions at all or concept of seniority, then the airline could have just laid off all the most senior employees first in order to maximize cost savings.

Quoting swa4life (Reply 67):
The turnover rate will be incredibly high, and training costs will soar. And they'll NEVER achieve having that solid work group of experienced hard nosed ramp workers ever again. That's less productivity, less employee investment in company success, and an infinite state of hiring and training of new employees..

Everything you say is true, but at many of the regionals and some legacies, they simply don't care. The extremely cheap labor offsets the high turnover/training costs.

Quoting T5towbar (Reply 60):
What I don't understand is the RJ flights hub to hub (ie: EWR to IAD). Due to the volume of connections, you would think that would be a mainline aircraft flight, instead of an RJ or a Q400.

I don't think there's that many connections between these two really. How many people need to fly EWR-IAD-XXX? Not many because EWR has most of the same destinations that IAD does. The reverse is largely true too. Not to mention, there's not a lot of local traffic on EWR-IAD.

Even a route like IAH-IAD where the two hubs have a lot less overlap and more unique destinations, UA still flies 50 seaters on some flights...mainline on others.


User currently offlinecrj900lr From United States of America, joined Mar 2011, 315 posts, RR: 0
Reply 69, posted (1 year 3 months 3 weeks 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 5950 times:

Quoting ThreeWests (Reply 56):
As a contract ramper, I worked most of the shifts I was assigned, sometimes reported to work on time, and was shortly promoted to supervisor. When the manager of the airline complained about delays, misloads or whatever, as a supervisor, I shrugged my shoulders and said "tell my boss". You see my boss wouldn't discipline me cause I worked most of the shifts I was assigned and sometimes reported to work on time. Eventually we lost the contract ... but no worries, the new contract company hired me, gave me a new uniform and I continued shrugging my shoulders as a supervisor.

I'm calling B.S on this. As bad a some contract companies are there is no way that you would continue to be employed even at the new company with an attitude/work ethic like that.


User currently offlinejetmatt777 From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 2763 posts, RR: 33
Reply 70, posted (1 year 3 months 3 weeks 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 5953 times:

Quoting crj900lr (Reply 71):
I'm calling B.S on this. As bad a some contract companies are there is no way that you would continue to be employed even at the new company with an attitude/work ethic like that.

I worked for a contract company before getting on at a mainline carrier. The carrier we worked for dumped our contract company, the new company came in and hired every person formerly employed under the old contract company. Did not review attendance, files, etc.



No info
User currently offlinecrj900lr From United States of America, joined Mar 2011, 315 posts, RR: 0
Reply 71, posted (1 year 3 months 3 weeks 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 5918 times:

I work with several contract companies that are contracted to preform below the wing work for the airline I work for and for the most part the contract company and its employees provide a nice product. There is really no difference. You have to wonder exactly how some of these contract companies actually function and how comitted to the safety of the operation they really are. Hopefully I never run into what you are talking about as I do my various station checks and contractor audits.

User currently offlineswa4life From United States of America, joined Jul 2009, 385 posts, RR: 1
Reply 72, posted (1 year 3 months 3 weeks 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 5881 times:

Quoting crj900lr (Reply 73):
I work with several contract companies that are contracted to preform below the wing work for the airline I work for and for the most part the contract company and its employees provide a nice product. There is really no difference. You have to wonder exactly how some of these contract companies actually function and how comitted to the safety of the operation they really are. Hopefully I never run into what you are talking about as I do my various station checks and contractor audits.

I feel like the airline itself often doesn't even realize what they're losing with a contractor. The problem is that by standing aside with a clip board capturing a microcosm of the actual day to day operation, you're really not seeing the entire picture. Not to mention they know you're there and all hands are probably on deck at those times.

And then that intel is basically the only thing that decisions are based on at the top. I find that senior management is very disconnected to what's actually happening where the rubber meets the road.


[Edited 2013-04-02 19:02:23]

[Edited 2013-04-02 19:05:19]

User currently offlinecrj900lr From United States of America, joined Mar 2011, 315 posts, RR: 0
Reply 73, posted (1 year 3 months 3 weeks 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 5819 times:

Quoting swa4life (Reply 74):
I feel like the airline itself often doesn't even realize what they're losing with a contractor. The problem is that by standing aside with a clip board capturing a microcosm of the actual day to day operation, you're really not seeing the entire picture. Not to mention they know you're there and all hands are probably on deck at those times.

And then that intel is basically the only thing that decisions are based on at the top. I find that senior management is very disconnected to what's actually happening where the rubber meets the road.

I voice my opinion and provide the reports, that's about the only thing I can do. You are right it's only a day or 2 at this station or a day or 2 at that station watching and taking notes so i'll agree i'm probably missing some things that may happen over the course of time. And most of the time they know when I am going to be there. I was once a ramper for the airline I work for now and when the station found out that an auditor was coming you better believe we had everything in order eventhough it was one of our people who was doing the audits. The contract companies are the same way when it comes to that most of the time when an auditor shows up. But in the end its the $$ that talks most of the time. Find it cheaper, get it cheaper, make it work cheape, that's all they look at. You don't know how many times i've been asked by upper management if I thought we were getting our moneys worth for the contracted services provided from what i observed.


User currently onlineMaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 17336 posts, RR: 46
Reply 74, posted (1 year 3 months 3 weeks 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 5786 times:

Quoting slider (Reply 65):
I'd amend that statement to just simply say that JOB SECURITY ANYWHERE IS A MYTH. Period. This whole discussion about job security provisions helped no airline people when the majors and legacies just went through the last wave of bankruptcies, did they?

Touche. But in this and many other similar cases it's decades of unions trying to stand neck deep in the waves commanding the tide to turn around like Canute and getting drowned every time...their best bet would be to get their members *out* of these jobs and into better ones, rather than pretending these jobs will provide a modicum of stability forever and ever.

Quoting swa4life (Reply 67):

To say that the ramp is a low skilled position depends on how you look at it

It's an entry level position, and the skills aren't really transferable anywhere; no one cared that I was deicing qualified, even within the industry . I think you're confusing "low skilled" with "easy", which it isn't necessarily.



E pur si muove -Galileo
User currently offlinerising From United States of America, joined May 2010, 269 posts, RR: 1
Reply 75, posted (1 year 3 months 3 weeks 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 5742 times:

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 27):
UA is full of people who HATE their job and their airline but are hanging on FOREVER. AA too.
Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 32):
when I started to hate one, I left and got a better job.

You're one tough customer (and employee) to satisfy!

It's been my experience that, in general, you get out of things what you think you're going to get. If you board a flight thinking it's going to be a nightmare, it will be. The same is true in reverse. If you think it's going to be positive, it probably will be. Not saying that bad things can't happen, but life is what you make of it. Generalizations about a company's employees and outsource partners based only your perceptions and personal experiences is not fair (or accurate).



If it doesn't make sense, it's because it's not true.
User currently offlineFlyDeltaJets From United States of America, joined Feb 2006, 1843 posts, RR: 2
Reply 76, posted (1 year 3 months 3 weeks 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 5650 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

People consistantly dog frontline customer service and ramp as a low skill position. The amount of training a customer service agent has to go through on an a regular basis. The amount of regulations that an agent needs to be current with. The computer systems that one has to become familliar with requires skill.


The only valid opinions are those based in facts
User currently offlineswa4life From United States of America, joined Jul 2009, 385 posts, RR: 1
Reply 77, posted (1 year 3 months 3 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 5496 times:

Well I'll put it this way. Working ramp, customer service, or operations is no less skilled than a flight attendant who for what ever reason are placed on a pedastul. Both are jobs that anyone is free to apply for and receive all training by the company.

User currently offlineRDH3E From United States of America, joined Mar 2011, 1597 posts, RR: 2
Reply 78, posted (1 year 3 months 3 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 5401 times:

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 70):
then the airline could have just laid off all the most senior employees first in order to maximize cost savings.

They could not do this. What would happen would be the employees would sue for age discrimination which is protected. Likely the employer would be forced to hire them back and face a huge fine or some such penalty. A company in BK would not risk having that situation and instead would most likely in a non-union environment fire everyone with a spotty attendance record and anyone with complaints against them etc. Why fire a junior employee with perfect every year but keep a senior guy who takes off the max sick days without getting canned? Union logic defeats me I guess.


User currently offlineswa4life From United States of America, joined Jul 2009, 385 posts, RR: 1
Reply 79, posted (1 year 3 months 3 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 5407 times:

Also as far as "entry level", what does that mean if you really think about it. If entry level is defined as a job that you're hired immediately into, isn't that most jobs? I feel like people throw buzz words around to try to make a convoluted point but after giving it a minimal amount of thought it doesn't actually hold water. Where can a ramper take his skills? To the countless airlines anywhere in the world or even other aviation fields. Where can a FA take their skills? Where can a carpenter take his skills? Other construction companies.. Where can a doctor take his skills? Other hospitals.. Does one field translate into another field? No.. But your job experience translates to that job at other companies just like any other. The only unfortunate thing about ramp is that doesn't really happen much only because the outsourcing and wage slashing has already taken its toll on our niche craft. Aircraft mechanics making $35 an hour are facing having their employing airlines outsource their heavy checks to foreign maintanence companies who pay their guys $10. In years to come doctors will deal with outsourcing of jobs via Indian doctors teleconferenced with screens. I mean this is all right in line with American work being outsourced as it has been over the last 10 years. Lots of industries feel this pain, and in the end it's bad for our country's middle class.

User currently offlineUnited_fan From United States of America, joined Nov 2000, 7448 posts, RR: 7
Reply 80, posted (1 year 3 months 3 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 5396 times:

Quoting malaysia (Reply 10):
I have some friends at UA and one big deal breaker for them was now having to pay Health Insurance, they currently get free family medical and dental HMO as an option. but the new agreement had them paying maybe now $500 to $800 a month for a family. Id hate to be in that position

Welcome to the real world . At my company $800+ a month is employee contribution for a family plan.



'Empathy was yesterday...Today, you're wasting my Mother-F'ing time' - Heat.
User currently offlineThreeWests From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 56 posts, RR: 0
Reply 81, posted (1 year 3 months 3 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 5270 times:

Quoting crj900lr (Reply 71):
I'm calling B.S on this. As bad a some contract companies are there is no way that you would continue to be employed even at the new company with an attitude/work ethic like that.

I understand why you'd call B.S. It was inconceivable to me also, until I lived it. In three years I never received a raise, worked split shifts, all vacation was unpaid, the benefits package was so expensive that every agent opted out...Maybe I worked for the worst of the worst, but they are out there loading the planes that you fly on.

[Edited 2013-04-03 08:55:26]


If you can read this your flying too close
User currently onlineMaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 17336 posts, RR: 46
Reply 82, posted (1 year 3 months 3 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 5250 times:

Quoting swa4life (Reply 81):
Also as far as "entry level", what does that mean if you really think about it.

It's pretty black and white. You may not think it's entry level but every company does.

Quoting swa4life (Reply 81):
Where can a ramper take his skills? To the countless airlines

...where he starts again at the bottom, because it's seniority not skills that matter in fields like this.

Quoting rising (Reply 77):
You're one tough customer (and employee) to satisfy!

How?? I'm very simple and straightforward; if I don't like the situation I'm in, I do something about it. If there's one thing I've learned in life it's that the world isn't going to change for me, no matter how unfair I think it is.

[Edited 2013-04-03 09:07:33]


E pur si muove -Galileo
User currently offlineNWAESC From United States of America, joined Aug 2007, 3381 posts, RR: 9
Reply 83, posted (1 year 3 months 3 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 5089 times:

Quoting slider (Reply 65):
Yeah, and I remember ramp equipment service employees at NW back in the day being paid $28/hour and many were then working third shift to clean aircraft.

Not on straight time, they weren't...

Quoting swa4life (Reply 67):
Firstly, working ramp is not for everyone.

..And that's all that needs to be said...

There's no shortage of people that think you're (we're) little more than semi literate mouth breathers. That won't change, no matter what you write. You don't have to justify your value to any of them.

Quoting United_fan (Reply 82):
At my company $800+ a month is employee contribution for a family plan.

Then your company needs to reevaluate its compensation packages.

...Or you need a new job...



"Nothing ever happens here, " I said. "I just wait."
User currently offlineUnited_fan From United States of America, joined Nov 2000, 7448 posts, RR: 7
Reply 84, posted (1 year 3 months 3 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 5094 times:

Quoting NWAESC (Reply 85):
Quoting United_fan (Reply 82):
At my company $800+ a month is employee contribution for a family plan.

Then your company needs to reevaluate its compensation packages.

...Or you need a new job...

That is for the top-tier family plan.



'Empathy was yesterday...Today, you're wasting my Mother-F'ing time' - Heat.
User currently offlinebeachbum1970 From United States of America, joined Dec 2011, 58 posts, RR: 0
Reply 85, posted (1 year 3 months 3 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 4946 times:

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 84):
if I don't like the situation I'm in, I do something about it

Then why did you quit your ramp job? Why not stand up for you and your co-workers and try to make your company a better place to work at? Join a negotiating team. Write letters to your management expressing your concerns. We're not going to just give up and roll over. Hopefully the company and union (and probably an arbitrator) will come up with a fair contract, one that addresses our concerns and that satisfies both sides. Remember, the UA mechanics also turned down their first contract, and got a better deal.

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 84):
If there's one thing I've learned in life it's that the world isn't going to change for me

Sure the world changes. Slavery has been abolished in much of the world, women are now allowed to vote, apartheid ended in South Africa, even equal rights for gays and lesbians in some parts of the world. If you truly believe in fighting for something that's important to you (such as your job) of course you can change the world.


User currently offlineRDH3E From United States of America, joined Mar 2011, 1597 posts, RR: 2
Reply 86, posted (1 year 3 months 3 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 4915 times:

Quoting beachbum1970 (Reply 87):
Why not stand up for you and your co-workers and try to make your company a better place to work at?

Because you often get better pay and a better work environment within weeks by changing jobs, but a decade by hanging around an airline. Not worth it.

Quoting beachbum1970 (Reply 87):
of course you can change the world.

Surely you're not comparing ramp work rules to the civil rights campaigns of slavery, women's sufferage, and LBGT rights etc? Those were/are national and global issues. The outsourcing of ramp work at UAL will never gather people en mass outside the Lincoln memorial.

[Edited 2013-04-03 14:55:31]

User currently offlinejayunited From United States of America, joined Jan 2013, 887 posts, RR: 1
Reply 87, posted (1 year 3 months 3 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 4847 times:

Quoting RDH3E (Reply 88):
Because you often get better pay and a better work environment within weeks by changing jobs, but a decade by hanging around an airline. Not worth it.

The work environment is what you make it. There are people who have amazing jobs that pay them a 6 figure salaries and they still are not happy. I have been with United for almost 17 years now and those years in bankruptcy and the years following bankruptcy were extremely hard to be honest I some days it was hard to come to work especially when I saw management and the executives giving themselves raises but gave nothing to front line employees. However now I enjoy coming to work I avoid toxic employees who are still holding on to the past and surround myself with employees who are excited about the future of United. And if I have to work a trip with one of those toxic employees I no longer allow their toxicity to effect my mood or my attitude I hear what they are saying and it goes in one ear and out the other. And while there are some employees who are still hanging around most employees who are still here are here because they want to be and believe in the future of United.

Quoting rising (Reply 77):
Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 27):
UA is full of people who HATE their job and their airline but are hanging on FOREVER. AA too.

This statement is not true now while there still are some employees here at UA who hate their job, the company and the management most of UA employees enjoy coming to work and do there job and are excited about the future of UA. However we have to make sure that this next contract rewards us for all the sacrifices we have made over the years. Just because an overwhelming number of employees voted no on the first offer UA made does not mean that we all hate our jobs.This is an negotiation an in a negotiation who accepts the first offer especially when that first offer was a low ball offer. No one; you make a counter offer and making that counter offer does not mean that United employees hate their jobs.


User currently offlinebeachbum1970 From United States of America, joined Dec 2011, 58 posts, RR: 0
Reply 88, posted (1 year 3 months 3 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 4817 times:

Quoting RDH3E (Reply 88):
Because you often get better pay and a better work environment within weeks by changing jobs

Really? In todays economy? And in the airline industry, you start back at the bottom for pay. Even worse, you could end up being on a "b-scale" or "c-scale" pay scale.

Quoting RDH3E (Reply 88):
Surely you're not comparing ramp work rules to the civil rights campaigns of slavery, women's sufferage, and LBGT rights etc

Of course I wasn't. I was just quoting MaverickM11 and his belief that the world isn't going to change for him:

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 84):
If there's one thing I've learned in life it's that the world isn't going to change for me

I was just giving an example that it's possible to make things better for yourself, if you're willing to fight for what you believe in.


User currently onlineMaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 17336 posts, RR: 46
Reply 89, posted (1 year 3 months 3 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 4806 times:

Quoting beachbum1970 (Reply 87):
Why not stand up for you and your co-workers and try to make your company a better place to work at? Join a negotiating team. Write letters to your management expressing your concerns.

I'm trying to picture how long any of that would have lasted an an express carrier in 2001, post 9/11   



E pur si muove -Galileo
User currently offlineNWAESC From United States of America, joined Aug 2007, 3381 posts, RR: 9
Reply 90, posted (1 year 3 months 3 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 4600 times:

Quoting United_fan (Reply 86):
That is for the top-tier family plan.

Still ridiculous...

Quoting beachbum1970 (Reply 87):
If you truly believe in fighting for something that's important to you (such as your job) of course you can change the world.

+1

...Or you can just throw in the towel, then spend tons of bandwidth on an internet site trying to rationalize your choice...



"Nothing ever happens here, " I said. "I just wait."
User currently offlinebobnwa From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 6443 posts, RR: 9
Reply 91, posted (1 year 3 months 3 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 4456 times:

Quoting jayunited (Reply 89):
and the years following bankruptcy were extremely hard to be honest I some days it was hard to come to work especially when I saw management and the executives giving themselves raises but gave nothing to front line employees. However now I enjoy coming to work I avoid toxic employees who are still holding on to the past and surround m

I really doubt that managers gave themselves raises at UA


User currently offlinecoairman From United States of America, joined Dec 2010, 115 posts, RR: 0
Reply 92, posted (1 year 3 months 3 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 4447 times:

I disagree that frontline airline customer service is an unskilled position. In the case of United's shares, it takes years of experience to be proficient with a language all to its own. You just can't log in and guess the entries. Agents have to be knowledgeable and abide by FAA and TSA regulations. Failure to abide can be costly to the company. Agents have unescorted access to aircraft which is important to note for safety and security purposes. Plus people in the frontline have to maintain composure under extremely stressful situations such as demanding customers and very tight time limitations. These customer service agents interact with very powerful and influential people such as CEO's of companies, movie stars, politicians, members of the nation media and athletes. Many mainline frontline legacy carrier employees are highly educated with masters and bachelors degrees. I know agents that have degrees in law and medicine. Because of the decent pay and great benefits legacy airlines retain highly educated and professional people. Without them, your airline will sink to the abyss with poor customer service and believe me, poor customer service can turn away a good customer forever.

I am not saying all mainline customer service agents are all professional with bachelors and masters degrees. I am not saying all mainline employees care about their jobs and give good customer service. But as a general rule, you get what you pay for and poor service can effect a company's bottom line.

[Edited 2013-04-04 07:19:27]

[Edited 2013-04-04 07:26:40]


Patience Can Be A Virtue.
User currently offlineRDH3E From United States of America, joined Mar 2011, 1597 posts, RR: 2
Reply 93, posted (1 year 3 months 3 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 4358 times:

Quoting jayunited (Reply 89):
And if I have to work a trip with one of those toxic employees I no longer allow their toxicity to effect my mood or my attitude I hear what they are saying and it goes in one ear and out the other.

If you take a step back though and look at a "job" in a larger sense, there are plenty of jobs where the work environment is actually terrible and it's not possible to tune it out. I think that is what is being referred to, the larger picture, not just a few foul individuals.

Quoting beachbum1970 (Reply 90):
Really? In todays economy? And in the airline industry, you start back at the bottom for pay. Even worse, you could end up being on a "b-scale" or "c-scale" pay scale.

Obviously the OP who we were both responding to isn't in a union, and neither am I. Unions prevent you from moving around for bigger dollars. And yes, "even during this economy" which has actually been on an upswing with unemployment actually in the 7's. It really isn't that bad out there right now, it's just still "uncertain" and that uncertainty is what is driving the current fears.

Quoting bobnwa (Reply 93):
I really doubt that managers gave themselves raises at UA

You know he means the C-suite and not average managers. WHQ took a 40% headcount reduction during BK, no one is saying those people were giving themselves bonus'


User currently offlineFriendlySkies From United States of America, joined Aug 2004, 4105 posts, RR: 5
Reply 94, posted (1 year 3 months 3 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 4362 times:

Quoting coairman (Reply 94):
Because of the decent pay and great benefits legacy airlines retain highly educated and professional people. Without them, your airline will sink to the abyss with poor customer service and believe me, poor customer service can turn away a good customer forever.

  

If you think airline customer service is bad now, start paying front line employees minimum wage with no benefits and see what happens.

Yeah, there are a few bad apples out there, but the vast majority of airline employees I've crossed paths with are professional, helpful, and at least appear to be happy to be there. Many of these people have been with an airline for 25+ years, back when it was a good career, with good benefits, a pension, and a stable, reliable income. Over the past decade these employees have been dragged through the mud, their earnings slashed, pensions gone, and now even job security questionable. They are not at a point in their lives where it makes sense to start over.

Frankly, anyone who would expect any reasonable human being in their position to just roll over and take this crappy contract needs their head examined. Talk about kicking someone when their down.

And to be clear, I don't think unions are free of blame here. The IAM should be ashamed of this contact, and I'm honestly surprised UA employees voted to retain them after the merger. And all of the unions are certainly to blame for demanding the absurd contracts awarded at the end of the 1990s that helped put most of these airlines into Chap 11. But management is squarely to blame for squandering billions in record profits from that same era while completely failing to plan for the inevitable downturn in what has always been a very cyclic industry.

These front line employees are just trying to provide for their families and look forward to a stable retirement, and many of them are struggling to do that because they have had to pay the toughest price for the failings of their leadership (both union and corporate). I don't blame a single one of them for ripping up this proposal and demanding something that isn't downright insulting.


User currently offlinebobnwa From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 6443 posts, RR: 9
Reply 95, posted (1 year 3 months 3 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 4229 times:

Quoting RDH3E (Reply 95):
You know he means the C-suite and not average managers. WHQ took a 40% headcount reduction during BK, no one is saying those people were giving themselves bonus'

jayunited said it and he should clarify what he meant


User currently offlineUnited_fan From United States of America, joined Nov 2000, 7448 posts, RR: 7
Reply 96, posted (1 year 3 months 3 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 4208 times:

Quoting NWAESC (Reply 92):
Quoting United_fan (Reply 86):
That is for the top-tier family plan.

Still ridiculous...

Tell me about it....that's the car-biz.



'Empathy was yesterday...Today, you're wasting my Mother-F'ing time' - Heat.
User currently offlinejayunited From United States of America, joined Jan 2013, 887 posts, RR: 1
Reply 97, posted (1 year 3 months 3 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 4173 times:

Quoting bobnwa (Reply 93):
I really doubt that managers gave themselves raises at UA
Quoting bobnwa (Reply 97):
Quoting RDH3E (Reply 95):
You know he means the C-suite and not average managers. WHQ took a 40% headcount reduction during BK, no one is saying those people were giving themselves bonus'

jayunited said it and he should clarify what he meant

I don't need to clarify what I said because you took what I said out of context and completely cut the sentence up to try and make a useless point to try to benefit yourself and make someone else look bad. You already know low level managers can not give themselves pay raises.


User currently offlinestrfyr51 From United States of America, joined Apr 2012, 1072 posts, RR: 1
Reply 98, posted (1 year 3 months 3 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 4186 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting RDH3E (Reply 80):

On average the most SENIOR employees were all United. While I think NOW the former CO management might have liked the idea except that we all lost our pensions and have to stay until 65 to get our full pension. They did NOT want to go back the other way and say "Here's your pension and NOW we want you to retire." I'd sure like to see them Try THAT because that would solve ALL their Problems! They knew what the deal WAS when Jeff ran down Tilton to do the DEAL!
Nobody is leaving ANYWHERE from the UA Side or the CO side on a DEAL like this !!
We've got more Directors of "not much" and Managing Directors of "even Less" than EVER before.
If they want to trim head count?? That's where you start!
Then you tell the guys loading bags and taking care of customers WHY they need to give up their job security.
I don't have a dog in this fight Directly BUT! It's the principle of this lousy contract that's in question.
Jeff wants to instill Culture?? Well this is a DAMN SHABBY way to do it! Tell me?? What Kind of Culture is THIS?!?! And Why would anybody ever want to hear what he says again without Prejudice???
You're only as good as your deeds and if THIS is what He's about?
Then it might be time for a STRIKE! Then we'll SEE where His "Culture" Lies...


User currently onlineMaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 17336 posts, RR: 46
Reply 99, posted (1 year 3 months 3 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 4121 times:

Quoting NWAESC (Reply 92):
...Or you can just throw in the towel, then spend tons of bandwidth on an internet site trying to rationalize your choice...

I don't have to rationalize anything--I loved being a ramper but I knew a) the future was only going to bring cuts and reductions, and I was right and b) it wasn't what I wanted to do as a career. But be my guest, keep up the fight--you only have a small fraction the leverage of the NW mechanics.

Quoting strfyr51 (Reply 100):
We've got more Directors of "not much" and Managing Directors of "even Less" than EVER before.
If they want to trim head count?? That's where you start!

Completely agree. UA could lose about half of HQ staff and no one would notice a difference. In fact they'd probably notice things improve.



E pur si muove -Galileo
User currently offlineRDH3E From United States of America, joined Mar 2011, 1597 posts, RR: 2
Reply 100, posted (1 year 3 months 3 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 4084 times:

Quoting strfyr51 (Reply 100):
We've got more Directors of "not much" and Managing Directors of "even Less" than EVER before.
Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 101):
Completely agree. UA could lose about half of HQ staff and no one would notice a difference. In fact they'd probably notice things improve.

Welcome to Continental Airlines.


User currently offlineSonomaFlyer From United States of America, joined Apr 2010, 1700 posts, RR: 0
Reply 101, posted (1 year 3 months 3 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 4069 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting RDH3E (Reply 102):

Quoting strfyr51 (Reply 100):
We've got more Directors of "not much" and Managing Directors of "even Less" than EVER before.
Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 101):
Completely agree. UA could lose about half of HQ staff and no one would notice a difference. In fact they'd probably notice things improve.

Welcome to Continental Airlines.

I take it this malaise set in after Gordon left re: headquarters?


User currently offlinebobnwa From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 6443 posts, RR: 9
Reply 102, posted (1 year 3 months 3 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 4042 times:

Quoting jayunited (Reply 99):
You already know low level managers can not give themselves pay raises.

Yes I do know it Howerver many members of Anet do not know, and make that claim regularly on here


User currently onlineMaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 17336 posts, RR: 46
Reply 103, posted (1 year 3 months 3 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 4053 times:

Quoting RDH3E (Reply 102):

Welcome to Continental Airlines.

The very top management is majority CO, but the HQ has gotta be north of 90% UA, so whatever you want to call that.

Quoting SonomaFlyer (Reply 103):
I take it this malaise set in after Gordon left re: headquarters?

People are always going to bemoan how it was better when Bethune/Kelleher/Carty were around, but the reality is always far more complex.



E pur si muove -Galileo
User currently offlineCOSPN From Northern Mariana Islands, joined Oct 2001, 1605 posts, RR: 0
Reply 104, posted (1 year 3 months 3 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 3961 times:

Guam is one of the places they want to outsource, there is no such thing as "unemployment Insurance" in Guam so when they cut heads you go to the street with no Job.. Continental Micronesia is not part of s/CO or s/UA so there is no place to go..Its really sad to see former employees "on the street" that would be great workers in Houston or San Francisico..I think they will Hire off the street soon to fill slots at IAD and SFO  

So far this this UA thing has been a mess for Guam I hope we can join s/UA someday or at least s/CO and get rid of s/CMI (Guam)


User currently offlineRDH3E From United States of America, joined Mar 2011, 1597 posts, RR: 2
Reply 105, posted (1 year 3 months 3 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 3915 times:

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 105):
The very top management is majority CO, but the HQ has gotta be north of 90% UA, so whatever you want to call that.

I'm not sure if you actually work here or not, but it doesn't seem like you do from this statement. If you were an employee you'd know that HR publishes a monthly report of the figures on their division portal. These reports also consider all Post-Merger hires to be s-UA (which I want to stress because there are tons of them). In the HQ locations (all 4 of them combined) s-CO makes up more than 35% of the management workforce.

[Edited 2013-04-04 15:43:32]

User currently onlineMaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 17336 posts, RR: 46
Reply 106, posted (1 year 3 months 3 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 3889 times:

Quoting RDH3E (Reply 107):
In the HQ locations (all 4 of them combined) s-CO makes up more than 35% of the management workforce.

Still sounds overwhelmingly sUA, and that includes IAH does it not? I imagine considering only downtown Chicago further widens the gap.



E pur si muove -Galileo
User currently offlineCOSPN From Northern Mariana Islands, joined Oct 2001, 1605 posts, RR: 0
Reply 107, posted (1 year 3 months 3 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 3880 times:

4 HQ's that explains some of our problems... make it 5 for Guam we have our own HQ GO in Guam for , I dont see how this saves money.. the 5 HQ's need to close to save on rent.. so UA can make some $$$

User currently onlineMaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 17336 posts, RR: 46
Reply 108, posted (1 year 3 months 3 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 3866 times:

Quoting COSPN (Reply 106):
So far this this UA thing has been a mess for Guam I hope we can join s/UA someday or at least s/CO and get rid of s/CMI (Guam)

I thought it was all merged onto one certificate?



E pur si muove -Galileo
User currently offlineCOSPN From Northern Mariana Islands, joined Oct 2001, 1605 posts, RR: 0
Reply 109, posted (1 year 3 months 3 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 3833 times:

Yes but there are still 3 subs s/CMI (Guam) s/UA and s/CO all have separate work contracts, HR, Accounting, Payroll, Upper Management, IT, Insurance, 401K, and all the other things an airline needs..to operate..

The plan was to put the 3 into one but its been 3 years and still no dice...I hope it wont take 3 more years to have one workforce called "United"


User currently offlinemalaysia From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 3330 posts, RR: 0
Reply 110, posted (1 year 3 months 3 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 3752 times:

Quoting COSPN (Reply 111):
Yes but there are still 3 subs s/CMI (Guam) s/UA and s/CO all have separate work contracts, HR, Accounting, Payroll, Upper Management, IT, Insurance, 401K, and all the other things an airline needs..to operate..

The plan was to put the 3 into one but its been 3 years and still no dice...I hope it wont take 3 more years to have one workforce called "United"

but some new positions in Guam are now under the "New United" such as international accounting etc.



There Are Those Who Believe That There May Yet Be Other Airlines Who Even Now Fight To Survive Beyond The Heavens
User currently offlinebeachbum1970 From United States of America, joined Dec 2011, 58 posts, RR: 0
Reply 111, posted (1 year 3 months 3 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 3733 times:

Quoting COSPN (Reply 106):
Guam is one of the places they want to outsource, there is no such thing as "unemployment Insurance" in Guam so when they cut heads you go to the street with no Job.. Continental Micronesia is not part of s/CO or s/UA so there is no place to go..Its really sad to see former employees "on the street" that would be great workers in Houston or San Francisico..I think they will Hire off the street soon to fill slots at IAD and SFO

Just curious, if the ramp/CS tentative agreement had passed, would the new contract have let Guam employees bump/transfer within the UA/CO system, in the event of GUM being outsourced? Or would you still have been considered a separate "part" of UA/CO and have no bumping/transfer rights?


User currently offlineRDH3E From United States of America, joined Mar 2011, 1597 posts, RR: 2
Reply 112, posted (1 year 3 months 2 weeks 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 3527 times:

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 106):
Still sounds overwhelmingly sUA, and that includes IAH does it not? I imagine considering only downtown Chicago further widens the gap.

It does not include IAH or ORD. I included only HQ locations, HDQ, HQJ, HQS and WHQ. If you include management personel across all locations, s-CO is even bigger at 45% of Mgt.

Just to totally round out the discussion, if you look at TOTAL employee populations, CO is 47% of the company. Keep in mind that as an airline CO was 30% smaller than UA pre-merger.

Quoting COSPN (Reply 107):
4 HQ's that explains some of our problems... make it 5 for Guam we have our own HQ GO in Guam for , I dont see how this saves money.. the 5 HQ's need to close to save on rent.. so UA can make some $$$
Quoting COSPN (Reply 109):
The plan was to put the 3 into one but its been 3 years and still no dice...I hope it wont take 3 more years to have one workforce called "United"

Well to be fair the leases on these building are not short-term. HDQ is closing it's under 700 people now down from double that, and we're trying to sub-lease it. I believe that HQJ/HQS are supposed to merge into one building, not sure. Also, if you can tell me the abbrev for the offsite mgt location in GUM that'd be appreciated, I can't seem to find it and was under the impression it had closed.

[Edited 2013-04-05 07:28:32]

User currently onlineMaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 17336 posts, RR: 46
Reply 113, posted (1 year 3 months 2 weeks 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 3513 times:

Quoting RDH3E (Reply 112):
It does not include IAH or ORD. I included only HQ locations, HDQ, HQJ, HQS and WHQ. If you include management personel across all locations, s-CO is even bigger at 45% of Mgt.

I meant the Houston HQ locations--just looking at the downtown Chicago HQ it's pretty minimally CO. Very few people moved up to begin with.



E pur si muove -Galileo
User currently offlineRDH3E From United States of America, joined Mar 2011, 1597 posts, RR: 2
Reply 114, posted (1 year 3 months 2 weeks 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 3503 times:

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 113):
I meant the Houston HQ locations--just looking at the downtown Chicago HQ it's pretty minimally CO. Very few people moved up to begin with.

Then you get to about 17%, but I think you're skewing the data to fit your hypothesis if you have to go that far to get an answer you like. Also keep in mind as I said earlier that this puts all post-merger hires into s-UA, and there are hundreds of them. Take those out and I'd put it closer to 20%. There are still people commuting from Houston though   


User currently onlineMaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 17336 posts, RR: 46
Reply 115, posted (1 year 3 months 2 weeks 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 3488 times:

Quoting RDH3E (Reply 114):
Then you get to about 17%, but I think you're skewing the data to fit your hypothesis if you have to go that far to get an answer you like.

I don't think so, it's pretty straight forward--if you look at who is running the airline from HQ (because the Houston and Elk Grove offices are pretty low level stuff), it's majority CO at the very top, and then the rest is overwhelming majority UA, even at day one of the merger. 80% sounds about right; of course if you include the entire airline it approaches a more even split.



E pur si muove -Galileo
User currently offlinestrfyr51 From United States of America, joined Apr 2012, 1072 posts, RR: 1
Reply 116, posted (1 year 3 months 2 weeks 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 3501 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 22):

With the IAM covering Ramp, Customer Service, Tower and Ground Equipment? What is the company going to DO actually?? They couldn't even push back an airplane since they took back Push Backs from the mechanics and gave it to the ramp. Who controls the bags and freight? Who makes sure you get checked In? Who's going to depart the airplane?
United does NOT want Nor can they afford a strike of the IAM. forget the outsourcing trash and negotiate a fair deal. Or maybe we should outsource some management


User currently offlinedelta2ual From United States of America, joined Dec 2007, 614 posts, RR: 1
Reply 117, posted (1 year 3 months 2 weeks 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 3399 times:

Quoting United_fan (Reply 80):
Welcome to the real world . At my company $800+ a month is employee contribution for a family plan.

Wow. That seems awfully high. Does your company pay any of portion of your insurance?

Quoting swa4life (Reply 79):
Where can a ramper take his skills? To the countless airlines anywhere in the world or even other aviation fields. Where can a FA take their skills? Where can a carpenter take his skills? Other construction companies.. Where can a doctor take his skills? Other hospitals.. Does one field translate into another field? No.. But your job experience translates to that job at other companies just like any other.

Well said. Believe it or not, many hiring managers (myself included) look at not just the job history but the longevity. Two employees doing the exact same job, ramp for instance, would probably have a disparity in longevity, mainline vs. contract. You would be hard-pressed to find an employee at a contacted outsourced job with staying power at that job. It's not uncommon for mainline employees to have many years with the same company. I know who I would pick if I was hiring. Longevity does count for something to many people doing the hiring.



From the world's largest airline-to the world's largest airline. Delta2ual
User currently offlineCOSPN From Northern Mariana Islands, joined Oct 2001, 1605 posts, RR: 0
Reply 118, posted (1 year 3 months 2 weeks 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 3273 times:

Quoting beachbum1970 (Reply 111):
Just curious, if the ramp/CS tentative agreement had passed, would the new contract have let Guam employees bump/transfer within the UA/CO system, in the event of GUM being outsourced? Or would you still have been considered a separate "part" of UA/CO and have no bumping/transfer rights?

Yes it would all would be under one Senority list s/CMI s/CO s/UA all the same..However s/CMI should have been "blended" into s/CO long ago..the 25K a month or whatever CMI pays to rent the Old Airport building is a waste of money all those functions can be done in Chicago or Houston..Guam is part of the United States not "International" as United like to call us so you just mail the checks from Chicago


User currently offlineAntoniemey From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 1555 posts, RR: 4
Reply 119, posted (1 year 3 months 2 weeks 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 2923 times:

Quoting jetmatt777 (Reply 70):
I worked for a contract company before getting on at a mainline carrier. The carrier we worked for dumped our contract company, the new company came in and hired every person formerly employed under the old contract company. Did not review attendance, files, etc.

Even if a company in-sourced a station, they would have to hire on a significant number of the people working for the contractor. I imagine that they would be a bit more diligent in file reviews, but the simple fact is that if you have 50-100 ramp jobs, you can't replace them with new hires and transfers overnight.

Quoting RDH3E (Reply 100):

Welcome to Continental Airlines.

Interesting that you say that, considering that I know of at least two upper level management purges that happened at CO in the past.

Quoting COSPN (Reply 109):
Yes but there are still 3 subs s/CMI (Guam) s/UA and s/CO all have separate work contracts, HR, Accounting, Payroll, Upper Management, IT, Insurance, 401K, and all the other things an airline needs..to operate..

In short, there's still a LONG way to go in making it one airline inside as well as out.

Quoting RDH3E (Reply 112):
Keep in mind that as an airline CO was 30% smaller than UA pre-merger.

Not in numbers of planes. I don't know the number of employees each had off the top of my head, but the difference was not that large there, either, as I recall. The main difference was number of passengers carried and number of miles flown... because UA had a much larger average A/C size and more international routes with most of their domestic feed shifted to regional lift.



Make something Idiot-proof, and the Universe will make a more inept idiot.
User currently offlineRDH3E From United States of America, joined Mar 2011, 1597 posts, RR: 2
Reply 120, posted (1 year 3 months 2 weeks 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 2892 times:

Quoting Antoniemey (Reply 119):
Not in numbers of planes. I don't know the number of employees each had off the top of my head, but the difference was not that large there, either, as I recall.

Exactly. CO got significantly less value from their employees on an overall per-head metric. The CO headcount was bloated, and so is the new UA.

Operating Revenue 2009 (M):

UA: $13,271
CO: $10,635


User currently offlineAntoniemey From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 1555 posts, RR: 4
Reply 121, posted (1 year 3 months 2 weeks 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 2852 times:

Quoting RDH3E (Reply 120):
CO got significantly less value from their employees on an overall per-head metric.

Maybe... but since CO had not outsourced all of its Ticket and Gate agents in express-only cities the way UA had, it could be argued that they were seeing some better customer service metrics that they felt overrode the cost. CO also had a lower Employee/Supervisor ratio pre-merger than UA did in the customer-facing positions.



Make something Idiot-proof, and the Universe will make a more inept idiot.
User currently offlineRDH3E From United States of America, joined Mar 2011, 1597 posts, RR: 2
Reply 122, posted (1 year 3 months 2 weeks 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 2796 times:

Quoting Antoniemey (Reply 121):
it could be argued that they were seeing some better customer service metrics that they felt overrode the cost.

This is from the Merger announcement to Continental employees (emphasis mine):

"United also brings many strengths to the new airline, including a globally recognized name, one of the finest networks in the world, and talented co-workers. United’s employees have done a great job with the carrier’s on-time performance, which over the last year or so has been not only better than ours, but the best among network carriers. United has the highest unit revenue (RASM) in the industry — even better than Continental’s."

So it must not have done that much to override the costs.

[Edited 2013-04-08 16:15:21]

User currently offlineCOSPN From Northern Mariana Islands, joined Oct 2001, 1605 posts, RR: 0
Reply 123, posted (1 year 3 months 2 weeks 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 2766 times:

I think CO/CMI had 2 many managers we have 4 layers in Guam alone .. Guam could be run by a GM (and a assistant) and supervisors.. we don't need a GM and 10 or 11 managers and a Director above the GM.. s/UA seems to run more with less

User currently offlineusflyer msp From United States of America, joined May 2000, 2105 posts, RR: 0
Reply 124, posted (1 year 3 months 2 weeks 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 2770 times:

Quoting RDH3E (Reply 120):
Exactly. CO got significantly less value from their employees on an overall per-head metric. The CO headcount was bloated, and so is the new UA.

Operating Revenue 2009 (M):

UA: $13,271
CO: $10,635

PMUA's computer systems were far superior to PMCO's and allowed them to get more done with fewer employees. For example,PMUA usually had 1 agent working a departure while PMCO usually had 2-3. Unfortunately, the PMCO way of doing things survived the merger and as a result UA has bloated staffing levels...


User currently offlineAADC10 From United States of America, joined Nov 2004, 2069 posts, RR: 0
Reply 125, posted (1 year 3 months 2 weeks 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 2723 times:

I guess UA is going down the road of "Wal-Martization" where frontline labor costs are only something to be reduced. Grocery workers used to have middle class pay and benefits but they have mostly declined to that of the working poor. Airlines are among the last to go through it, largely because the unions held together. Eventually UA ground labor will be paid like fast food or Wal-Mart, part time workers topping out at $10/hr with no benefits. Turnover will increase and service will decline, but it will just be accepted as the cost of low fares. Like many companies, they will start to whine about not being able to find qualified employees but there is an expectation in many companies that the maximum pay for semi-skilled workers should be $10/hr.

User currently offlineCOSPN From Northern Mariana Islands, joined Oct 2001, 1605 posts, RR: 0
Reply 126, posted (1 year 3 months 2 weeks 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 2706 times:

Yes really sad, problem is UA operates in " super High cost areas" SFO ORD EWR LAX HNL GUM DEN, IAD so walmart wages wont work..If you want people without a "record"

User currently offlineAntoniemey From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 1555 posts, RR: 4
Reply 127, posted (1 year 3 months 2 weeks 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 2601 times:

Quoting RDH3E (Reply 122):
United has the highest unit revenue (RASM) in the industry — even better than Continental’s."

So it must not have done that much to override the costs.

Or the ASM difference balanced out in UA's favor. They did have a much larger international reach overall. Or it's none of the above. It's pretty well accepted (around here at least) that CO had pretty close to the highest aircraft utilization rate in the industry while WN had pretty close to the highest worker efficiency. Whether those factors hold true (with the new UA taking CO's place) in the future is yet to be seen.



Make something Idiot-proof, and the Universe will make a more inept idiot.
User currently offlineCOSPN From Northern Mariana Islands, joined Oct 2001, 1605 posts, RR: 0
Reply 128, posted (1 year 3 months 2 weeks 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 2495 times:

well CO did not have crappy 744's that can only fly from SFO

User currently offlineEaglePower83 From United States of America, joined Oct 2011, 217 posts, RR: 0
Reply 129, posted (1 year 3 months 2 weeks 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 2442 times:

Quoting COSPN (Reply 128):

well CO did not have crappy 744's that can only fly from SFO

Nice rebuttle.
 


User currently onlineMaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 17336 posts, RR: 46
Reply 130, posted (1 year 3 months 2 weeks 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 2444 times:

Quoting usflyer msp (Reply 124):
Unfortunately, the PMCO way of doing things survived the merger and as a result UA has bloated staffing levels...
Quoting COSPN (Reply 123):
s/UA seems to run more with less
Quoting Antoniemey (Reply 121):
since CO had not outsourced all of its Ticket and Gate agents in express-only cities the way UA had

This all bodes real well for future job stability for ground employees 
Quoting AADC10 (Reply 125):
I guess UA is going down the road of "Wal-Martization"

UA has been down that road for the better part of a decade. They would have outsourced all their flying if they could. EI was just the beginning.



E pur si muove -Galileo
User currently offlineFlyDeltaJets From United States of America, joined Feb 2006, 1843 posts, RR: 2
Reply 131, posted (1 year 3 months 2 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 2222 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting COSPN (Reply 128):
well CO did not have crappy 744's that can only fly from SFO

747's fly out of ORD and LAX as well, not understanding how that even relates to the discussion.



The only valid opinions are those based in facts
Top Of Page
Forum Index

This topic is archived and can not be replied to any more.

Printer friendly format

Similar topics:More similar topics...
Southwest Airlines Ground Employees Picket At DAL posted Fri Mar 29 2013 07:50:49 by MaverickM11
US F/A's Vote No posted Fri Mar 30 2012 14:53:57 by Xcltflyboy
Air Canada Ground Employees Walk Off Job At YYZ posted Thu Mar 22 2012 20:06:45 by lnglive1011yyz
Southwest Mechs Vote NO! posted Tue Feb 21 2012 22:49:47 by DC9Fixer
Delta To Give All Ground Employees Raises In '12 posted Thu Dec 15 2011 16:30:49 by cokepopper
Northwest Pilots Vote `no Confidence' posted Tue Jun 19 2007 08:01:50 by Rsmith6621a
Pilots Vote 'no Confidence' In NWA Execs posted Sun Jun 17 2007 00:04:39 by Xbraniffone
Northwest Ground Employees At BIS Lose Jobs Nov 28 posted Sun Aug 13 2006 01:25:03 by KarlB737
AC Pilots Vote NO To 777/787 posted Sun Jun 19 2005 01:43:50 by Lazionic
Continental Flight Attendants Vote No On Cuts posted Thu Mar 31 2005 14:52:56 by ContinentalFan