Sponsor Message:
Civil Aviation Forum
My Starred Topics | Profile | New Topic | Forum Index | Help | Search 
Qantas And Emirates- And So It Begins  
User currently offlineHH65MAN From Australia, joined Feb 2013, 106 posts, RR: 0
Posted (1 year 8 months 19 hours ago) and read 26132 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

A Qantas A380 flying in formation with a Emirates A380, aviation 1st?




Would have given my left testicle to have been there to see this.......

[Edited 2013-03-30 21:56:14]

126 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineRyanairGuru From Australia, joined Oct 2006, 5906 posts, RR: 5
Reply 1, posted (1 year 8 months 19 hours ago) and read 26164 times:

Quoting HH65MAN (Thread starter):
aviation 1st?

Yes, first ever formation A380 flying.



Worked Hard, Flew Right
User currently offlineMiami From United States of America, joined Sep 2012, 1987 posts, RR: 52
Reply 2, posted (1 year 8 months 19 hours ago) and read 26030 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Fantastic shot! I'm happy for Emirates and Qantas. Know, I hope Qantas makes Emirates join Oneworld.


Aviation is proof that given, the will, we have the capacity to achieve the impossible. - Eddie Rickenbacker
User currently offlineaussiepomm From Australia, joined Mar 2011, 42 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (1 year 8 months 19 hours ago) and read 26040 times:

Here is one from the other side of the Harbour…

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8122/8604904628_c042b37e1b_b.jpg
EK QF Flyover II by AussiePomm, on Flickr

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8103/8603800585_0a31918ff7_b.jpg
EK QF Flyover by AussiePomm, on Flickr

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8265/8603799229_36ff10ec7c_b.jpg
EK QF Flyover City by AussiePomm, on Flickr



if my calculations are correct slinky + escalator = everlasting fun!
User currently offlineEK413 From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 4987 posts, RR: 4
Reply 4, posted (1 year 8 months 19 hours ago) and read 26013 times:

I had the privilege to be there and witness it in person  http://i50.tinypic.com/2qa5pit.jpg

http://youtu.be/iFUypE9ZMUE

EK413



Good evening, ladies and gentlemen. We are tonight’s entertainment!
User currently offlineBlueSky1976 From Poland, joined Jul 2004, 1904 posts, RR: 5
Reply 5, posted (1 year 8 months 19 hours ago) and read 25977 times:

Quoting RyanairGuru (Reply 1):
Yes, first ever formation A380 flying.

Not entirely accurate - Airbus did it earlier at one of the Paris air shows I believe: http://www.futura-sciences.com/galer...hotos/data/547/A380_formation3.jpg

However, it is first carrier-owned A380 formation flight.



Now get your f***ing Jumbo Jet off my airport!!! - AC/DC "Ain't No Fun To Be a Millionaire"
User currently offlineB747forever From Sweden, joined May 2007, 17126 posts, RR: 10
Reply 6, posted (1 year 8 months 18 hours ago) and read 25823 times:

Now what was the reason for doing this? Is this their way of kicking off the new cooperation?

Quoting Miami (Reply 2):

Emirates is basically an alliance on its own. A huge airline with over 100 A380s in the fleet in the future.



Work Hard, Fly Right
User currently offlineUnited Airline From Hong Kong, joined Jan 2001, 9191 posts, RR: 15
Reply 7, posted (1 year 8 months 18 hours ago) and read 25825 times:

So no more Singapore-London? Sad...... Why do they have to cut this route? They can keep it still....

User currently offlinemiami From United States of America, joined Sep 2012, 1987 posts, RR: 52
Reply 8, posted (1 year 8 months 18 hours ago) and read 25807 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting B747forever (Reply 6):

Very true.

Now just sitting and wait for EK to launch MIA..



Aviation is proof that given, the will, we have the capacity to achieve the impossible. - Eddie Rickenbacker
User currently offlinecalvo747 From Australia, joined Dec 2012, 11 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (1 year 8 months 18 hours ago) and read 25757 times:

wish they had offered tickets for the fly over, is this the start of Qantas international being sold off or absorbed by Emirates

User currently offlineqf002 From Australia, joined Jul 2011, 2994 posts, RR: 2
Reply 10, posted (1 year 8 months 18 hours ago) and read 25748 times:

Quoting B747forever (Reply 6):
Now what was the reason for doing this? Is this their way of kicking off the new cooperation?

Today is the first day of the new JV, and QF's first flights to LHR via DXB (can't wait to see photos of QF in the EK lineup!).

Quoting United Airline (Reply 7):
So no more Singapore-London? Sad...... Why do they have to cut this route? They can keep it still....

No they can't. One of the big beneifts of the deal for EK is increased access to LHR, and QF doesn't have the traffic or the planes to do both DXB and SIN.


User currently offlineEK413 From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 4987 posts, RR: 4
Reply 11, posted (1 year 8 months 17 hours ago) and read 25548 times:

The inaugural Qantas QF1 Sydney to London via Dubai service has taken off...

http://i49.tinypic.com/27wu5ci.jpg

EK413



Good evening, ladies and gentlemen. We are tonight’s entertainment!
User currently offlineB747forever From Sweden, joined May 2007, 17126 posts, RR: 10
Reply 12, posted (1 year 8 months 17 hours ago) and read 25527 times:

Quoting EK413 (Reply 11):
he inaugural Qantas QF1 Sydney to London via Dubai service has taken off

Best of luck to QF for choosing the easy way out with EK.



Work Hard, Fly Right
User currently offlineRyanairGuru From Australia, joined Oct 2006, 5906 posts, RR: 5
Reply 13, posted (1 year 8 months 17 hours ago) and read 25482 times:

Quoting United Airline (Reply 7):
They can keep it still....
Quoting qf002 (Reply 10):
QF doesn't have the traffic or the planes to do both DXB and SIN.

What he said ^

Assuming that the 332s go domestic, QF is going to be stretched very thin between when the last of the non-9 744s leave and the 787s and new 388s arrive. SYD-SIN-LHR would tie up 3 aircraft that simply don't exist. Plus, they cut HKG-LHR and BKK-LHR for a reason, they're not going back to 3/4 daily flights in the foreseeable future, probably never.



Worked Hard, Flew Right
User currently offlineEK413 From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 4987 posts, RR: 4
Reply 14, posted (1 year 8 months 17 hours ago) and read 25372 times:

Quoting B747forever (Reply 12):
Best of luck to QF for choosing the easy way out with EK.

Perhaps you have a far better choice? From memory a number of European airlines have pulled out the Australasian route, KL, OS, NG, OA, LH, AZ just to name a few...

EK413



Good evening, ladies and gentlemen. We are tonight’s entertainment!
User currently offlinetrent1000 From Japan, joined Jan 2007, 573 posts, RR: 2
Reply 15, posted (1 year 8 months 16 hours ago) and read 25119 times:

Qantas customers are paying hundreds of dollars more for flights to Europe compared with those who book the same flights through its new ally Emirates.

Read more: http://www.news.com.au/travel/news/e...frfq80-1226609578035#ixzz2P6OR7SPX


User currently offlineEK413 From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 4987 posts, RR: 4
Reply 16, posted (1 year 8 months 16 hours ago) and read 25053 times:

Quoting trent1000 (Reply 15):
Qantas customers are paying hundreds of dollars more for flights to Europe compared with those who book the same flights through its new ally Emirates.

Read more: http://www.news.com.au/travel/news/e...R7SPX

Yes, there are hiccups along the way and I'm sure these issues will be resolved with time...

EK413



Good evening, ladies and gentlemen. We are tonight’s entertainment!
User currently offlineRWA380 From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3432 posts, RR: 5
Reply 17, posted (1 year 8 months 16 hours ago) and read 25024 times:

Quoting HH65MAN (Thread starter):
Would have given my left testicle to have been there to see this

Not the right one?  



AA AC AQ AS BD BN CO CS DL EA EZ HA HP KL KN MP MW NK NW OO OZ PA PS QX RC RH RW SA TG TW UA US VS WA WC WN
User currently offlineRyanairGuru From Australia, joined Oct 2006, 5906 posts, RR: 5
Reply 18, posted (1 year 8 months 16 hours ago) and read 25004 times:

Quoting trent1000 (Reply 15):
Qantas customers are paying hundreds of dollars more for flights to Europe compared with those who book the same flights through its new ally Emirates.

I'm surprised it's taken this long for the media to sensationalise this. For a start, the article uses specific route/date to "prove" its point. I have personally seen what news.com.au reports, but also seen the opposite where QF have worked out cheaper.

More than anything else this is related to fare structures and inventory, not some malicious attempt by QF to price gauge customers. Not that I expect the media to report anything different, however  



Worked Hard, Flew Right
User currently offlineCXfirst From Norway, joined Jan 2007, 3082 posts, RR: 1
Reply 19, posted (1 year 8 months 15 hours ago) and read 24881 times:

Quoting EK413 (Reply 11):
The inaugural Qantas QF1 Sydney to London via Dubai service has taken off...

It was fun seeing QF1 over the Great Australian Bight of FlightRadar!

-CXfirst



From Norway, live in Australia
User currently offlineVCy From Cyprus, joined Dec 2012, 236 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (1 year 8 months 15 hours ago) and read 24821 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Does anyone know why the DXB-LCA-MLA route is not part of the code share?  

User currently offlinekoruman From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 21, posted (1 year 8 months 15 hours ago) and read 24663 times:

My main issue with the tie-up is the loss of Premium Economy for the longer sector for all passengers not going to/from Sydney or Melbourne.

The increase in European ports is terrific, long overdue. But the self-funded premium leisure market is increasingly significant ex-Australia, and Qantas is conceding a very large chunk of it.


User currently offlinePellegrine From United States of America, joined Mar 2007, 2480 posts, RR: 8
Reply 22, posted (1 year 8 months 15 hours ago) and read 24536 times:

“Dubai is the best hub for Qantas in the 21st century" -Alan Joyce

8 hours from 75% of the world's population...how is that relevant to Qantas! I'm not talking about 10 or even 50 pax a day...

              



oh boy!!!
User currently offlinezkokq From Australia, joined Mar 2012, 479 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (1 year 8 months 14 hours ago) and read 24452 times:

Quoting Pellegrine (Reply 22):

Don't know if you know but qantas is in the business of moving lots of people over vast distances... EK has proved that Dubai is the best way for this to occur. And I can say having transferred through Dubai, it's amazing. And that was before the new concourse.


User currently offlineaussiepomm From Australia, joined Mar 2011, 42 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (1 year 8 months 13 hours ago) and read 23957 times:

Quoting aussiepomm (Reply 3):
Here is one from the other side of the Harbour…

Since the original images have been updated, here are the replacements…

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8122/8604904628_2819796263_b.jpg
EK QF Flyover II by AussiePomm, on Flickr

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8103/8603800585_1479d41b95_b.jpg
EK QF Flyover by AussiePomm, on Flickr



if my calculations are correct slinky + escalator = everlasting fun!
User currently offlineRyanairGuru From Australia, joined Oct 2006, 5906 posts, RR: 5
Reply 25, posted (1 year 8 months 12 hours ago) and read 25529 times:

Quoting Pellegrine (Reply 22):
8 hours from 75% of the world's population...how is that relevant to Qantas

I'm really struggling to fidn what it is that you find amusing about that statement  
Quoting koruman (Reply 21):
the self-funded premium leisure market is increasingly significant ex-Australia

I agree 100%

Quoting koruman (Reply 21):
Qantas is conceding a very large chunk of it.

but don't understand what you mean?

EK was the market leader in ex-Aus "premium leisure travel" given their ability to get you where "premium leisure travellers" want to go (CDG, VCE, FCO etc).

By linking up to all that how is QF "conceding" that market?

If you are referring to Y+ then QF and BA are the only airlines that have offered it until now, and you have to connect at SYD or MEL to get it.

While CX now have it, it is very new and certainly wasn't instrumental to QF "conceding" that traffic over recent years.



Worked Hard, Flew Right
User currently offlineLofty From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2008, 319 posts, RR: 0
Reply 26, posted (1 year 8 months 12 hours ago) and read 25467 times:

Why does everyone say how good DXB and EK is. Last year I had 2 separate relatives us EK and DXB as a transfer. Both have said they would never use EK or go via DXB again. 1 was in Business and said the way EK handled their involve downgrade at the gate was disgraceful.

I would not mind but both had asked me before they booked if EK was OK to use and based on their perceived reputation I said yes.


User currently offlineAirNiugini From Australia, joined Mar 2010, 253 posts, RR: 0
Reply 27, posted (1 year 8 months 11 hours ago) and read 25906 times:

Just got off a QF domestic flight from Townsville to Brisbane and the EK code is already in action at the TSV terminal... It was also interesting to see the QF and EK decorations hanging around the QFclub and check-in counters...

As much as I do not personally enjoy flying with Emirates, I do wish the people at Qantas all the very best with this venture. I love the idea that passengers who would not usually get to experience Qantas, will have the ability to fly on QF metal from London to Dubai and beyond to Africa, the Mid-East and Asia... QF has a great service to show off to the world...

Even though FRA is gone, I have hope that QF will begin to grow it's own services again... today AJ said "We're continuing to talk to Emirates about opportunities in continental Europe, and Berlin is one of them". "As this partnership is bedded down we'll be looking at opportunities for both airlines to expand their networks." (http://www.ausbt.com.au)... So who knows what might end up...

Quoting aussiepomm (Reply 24):

Really awesome shots mate.. Well done √ √ √

Quoting VCy (Reply 20):
Does anyone know why the DXB-LCA-MLA route is not part of the code share?

And add Dubai to Vienna to that list too...



Its time to fly!
User currently offlineRJA321 From Jordan, joined Mar 2009, 69 posts, RR: 0
Reply 28, posted (1 year 8 months 9 hours ago) and read 24259 times:

I personally cannot wait to finally try Qantas between DXB and LHR, and on their A380 too! Best of luck to both airlines!


Hurry up, before we all come to our senses!
User currently offlineSCQ83 From United States of America, joined Oct 2012, 1100 posts, RR: 0
Reply 29, posted (1 year 8 months 9 hours ago) and read 23716 times:

I don't know why some OPs are so negative or even ironical with this JV.

As much as I am not a fan or a hater of EK, out of curiosity, I was checking a few "uncommon" combinations Europe-Australia (CPH-ADL, MAD-PER, HAM-MEL...) and certainly EK blows everybody out of the water. You can do those flights with, sometimes, only 1-2-3 hours layover (both ways), and only 1 stop in Dubai. With any other combination (even QR or SQ), those combinations mean 2 or even 3 stops and easily 10 hours more.

For LHR-SYD, now there are 7 daily flights LHR-DXB (5 EK, 2 QF) and 3 to Sydney... all in A380. Pretty amazing.

If you discount the long trip itself, somehow EK/QF has transformed to tortious experience of flying between Europe and Australia (specially when you are not flying LHR-MEL/SYD) of changing airports, long lay-overs and making impossible combinations in, somehow, a straight-forward experience (you board at your local airport in Europe or Australia - whatever it is-, a couple of hours in DXB and you are at your final destination).

Quoting Lofty (Reply 26):
Why does everyone say how good DXB and EK is. Last year I had 2 separate relatives us EK and DXB as a transfer. Both have said they would never use EK or go via DXB again. 1 was in Business and said the way EK handled their involve downgrade at the gate was disgraceful.

I would not mind but both had asked me before they booked if EK was OK to use and based on their perceived reputation I said yes.
EK is all about convenience today, it is often the quickest and more hassle-free way to get from A to B.

I don't think most passengers fly EK because of perception of luxury (certainly not in a 10-abreast economy class or a stadium-sized business lounge) or price. However, still the advantage of EK is that you are somehow guaranteed a "minimum" that other Asian, American or European carriers sometimes do not match. For instance, IFE in economy... until recently you could fly a LH B747 and it was a gamble, you could have IFE or maybe not... that uncertainty is extremely annoying from a passenger point of view (I agree that for instance, in EK you still have the "uncertainty" of which Business Class product you will be flying...)

[Edited 2013-03-31 08:11:54]

User currently offlinelightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 13439 posts, RR: 100
Reply 30, posted (1 year 8 months 8 hours ago) and read 23304 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

THE QANTAS tie-up with Emirates is producing solid returns, with the flying kangaroo's bookings from the alliance now six times what they were under the carrier's previous partnerships into Europe, chief executive Alan Joyce said yesterday.
http://www.theaustralian.com.au/busi...ie-up/story-e6frg95x-1226609977383

So much for this being a one way deal... I see this boosting travel to/from Australia.

Congrats to QF. The cost savings and revenue potential for them could very well save that airline. QF has a small number of valuable rights that they'll be able to exercise profitably out of DXB where they wouldn't be able to make money out of SIN. e.g., CDG. They are also avoiding a HUGE amount of backtracking (e.g,. the previously noted MAD) for their customers.

Quoting SCQ83 (Reply 29):
I don't know why some OPs are so negative or even ironical with this JV.

Some are upset at QF losing a strong position. That I can understand, but the reality is QF had to do something different and EK was the best choice. For there was no avoiding EK competition.

For some, this JV threatens their favorite airline. For example, BA is going to be hurt by the alliance shift and I fully expect QF to call back in their LHR slot pair in the future.

Some think this will boost fares. Oh, for some routes, but the shear competition on the Europe to Australia market will ensure the customer still has options. e.g., with SQ, TI, CX/BA, CZ, and a number of other players. I'm shocked how much competition there is on those routes...

Some just complain.  

No real business is perfect. But this JV will probably keep QF afloat.

Quoting SCQ83 (Reply 29):
If you discount the long trip itself, somehow EK/QF has transformed to tortious experience of flying between Europe and Australia (specially when you are not flying LHR-MEL/SYD)

And for the LHR-MEL/SYD makret, that will remain well served. This is a HUGE gain for secondary market connections. I fully expect the new concourse A at DXB to see quite a bit of traffic from this JV.

Lightsaber



Societies that achieve a critical mass of ideas achieve self sustaining growth; others stagnate.
User currently offlineqf002 From Australia, joined Jul 2011, 2994 posts, RR: 2
Reply 31, posted (1 year 8 months 8 hours ago) and read 23069 times:

Quoting trent1000 (Reply 15):
Qantas customers are paying hundreds of dollars more for flights to Europe compared with those who book the same flights through its new ally Emirates.

Read more: http://www.news.com.au/travel/news/e...frfq80-1226609578035#ixzz2P6OR7SPX

They've only just received antitrust clearance to collaborate on fares, so expect to see discrepancies level out of the next couple of weeks. The comments made in the article are quite ridiculous -- if the two airlines had collaborated on fares from day one then they would have been guilty of collusion and faced massive fines.

Quoting Lofty (Reply 26):
Why does everyone say how good DXB and EK is

Because not all of us enjoy making an extra stop/enduring a domestic style flight to get to a secondary centres that aren't served nonstop by the big Asian airlines.


User currently offlinenclmedic From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2009, 345 posts, RR: 0
Reply 32, posted (1 year 8 months 8 hours ago) and read 22464 times:

With all QF flights ex-LHR now flying to DXB what's likely to become of Qantas Cabin Crew UK Ltd., the UK based crew that have historically operated the first leg of the Kangaroo routes? I know there's been some uncertainty hanging over their future for some time....

User currently offlineplanenutter From United Kingdom, joined Sep 2010, 4 posts, RR: 0
Reply 33, posted (1 year 8 months 7 hours ago) and read 22247 times:

I believe this was the first formation flying of the A380?

http://www.airliners.net/photo/Airbu...dustrie/Airbus-A380-861/1167866/L/

planenutter


User currently offlineqf002 From Australia, joined Jul 2011, 2994 posts, RR: 2
Reply 34, posted (1 year 8 months 7 hours ago) and read 21954 times:

Quoting nclmedic (Reply 32):
With all QF flights ex-LHR now flying to DXB what's likely to become of Qantas Cabin Crew UK Ltd., the UK based crew that have historically operated the first leg of the Kangaroo routes? I know there's been some uncertainty hanging over their future for some time....

In the long term (ie 5+ years and assuming there is an improvement in Europe's performance for QF), I think we're likely to see QF move their entire European operation to DXB (especially if/when they start adding more cities with their own metal), which would mean the end of the UK crew base.


User currently offlinedavid_itl From United Kingdom, joined Jun 2001, 7415 posts, RR: 13
Reply 35, posted (1 year 8 months 6 hours ago) and read 21335 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

nice comparison on travel saving times


Sydney to London – 30 minutes faster
Sydney to Manchester - 2hrs 15mins hrs faster
Brisbane to Barcelona – 5hrs 25 mins hrs faster
Melbourne to Milan – 3hrs 45 min faster
Sydney to Rome – 3hrs 5 mins faster
Sydney to Zurich – 5hrs 40 mins faster
Melbourne to Zurich – 5hrs 10 mins faster
Perth to Barcelona – 2hrs 45 mins faster

This is as a result of routing through DXB and not having to get passengers to route via LHR on BA to where they want to go. Complete no-brainer as far as QF can see as they will no longer be missing out on that portion of the market that prefers quicker travel times.


User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25566 posts, RR: 86
Reply 36, posted (1 year 8 months 6 hours ago) and read 20670 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 30):
THE QANTAS tie-up with Emirates is producing solid returns, with the flying kangaroo's bookings from the alliance now six times what they were under the carrier's previous partnerships into Europe, chief executive Alan Joyce said yesterday.

I have little sympathy for those who say that this is Qantas throwing in the towel, because there is another number turned up, which is extremely intriguing.

"...bookings from the alliance are six times what they were under the carriers previous partnerships" - but there's more:

http://au.news.yahoo.com/thewest/bus...-gets-booking-boost-from-emirates/

"Moreover, bookings from Emirates passengers for travel on Qantas's domestic network over the past nine weeks was almost seven times higher when compared with the same time in 2012."

Seven times more Emirates pax were booking onto Qantas domestic than last year. So it is, so far at least, a two way street.

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlinerlwynn From Germany, joined Dec 2000, 1097 posts, RR: 1
Reply 37, posted (1 year 8 months 5 hours ago) and read 20486 times:

What is with alcohol on Emirates?


I can drive faster than you
User currently offlinelightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 13439 posts, RR: 100
Reply 38, posted (1 year 8 months 5 hours ago) and read 20265 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting david_itl (Reply 35):
Complete no-brainer as far as QF can see as they will no longer be missing out on that portion of the market that prefers quicker travel times.

A very premium part of the market. It is past due to cut the times.

I'm surprised at the time cut SYD-LHR. There is about another half hour of flight time. That implies one hour less on the ground in transit. Is that accurate? I understand less time with another connection, but that doesn't apply to LHR. How did Qantas cut the time?

Lightsaber



Societies that achieve a critical mass of ideas achieve self sustaining growth; others stagnate.
User currently offlinemiami From United States of America, joined Sep 2012, 1987 posts, RR: 52
Reply 39, posted (1 year 8 months 5 hours ago) and read 20127 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

This may be a silly question. But I've been hearing that Qantas will be leaving OneWorld. And if not, Emirates would join OneWorld.

Is this true or false?



Aviation is proof that given, the will, we have the capacity to achieve the impossible. - Eddie Rickenbacker
User currently offlinejayeshrulz From India, joined Apr 2007, 1029 posts, RR: 2
Reply 40, posted (1 year 8 months 5 hours ago) and read 20087 times:

Quoting miami (Reply 39):
This may be a silly question. But I've been hearing that Qantas will be leaving OneWorld. And if not, Emirates would join OneWorld.

Is this true or false?

I cannot say about the former, but the latter will never happen. EK will never join any alliance. Perhaps make their own alliance one day? Possible   
AFA QF goes, I do not see them leaving OneWorld so soon. Time will tell  



Keep flying, because the sky is no limit!
User currently offlineEK413 From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 4987 posts, RR: 4
Reply 41, posted (1 year 8 months 5 hours ago) and read 19857 times:

Quoting miami (Reply 39):
This may be a silly question. But I've been hearing that Qantas will be leaving OneWorld. And if not, Emirates would join OneWorld.

Is this true or false?

I highly doubt it... The EK tie up is a separate deal, the OW alliance plays a key role in QFs international network operations; example DFW & SCL 2 OW hubs...

EK413



Good evening, ladies and gentlemen. We are tonight’s entertainment!
User currently offlinekoruman From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 42, posted (1 year 8 months 5 hours ago) and read 19838 times:

@RyanairGuru
My point is that the two states in which leisure passengers are the most cashed-up - and therefore likely to buy Premium Economy tickets - are Queensland and WA.

And Qantas can only sell such passengers Economy or Business Class for the looooong sector to Dubai. There is no Premium Economy cabin, and no ability for Qantas Frequent Flyers buying Economy tickets to upgrade their class of service short of buying up from a $2K ticket to a $6.5K one.

My parents are retired doctors, and they do travel long-haul Premium Economy, several times each year. But their choice with Qantas is now a pretty ordinary Economy offering for the first 14 hours, or else adding an extra $9000.

Consequently, they have recently bought a Cathay Pacific ticket.

The whole reason that sales are so much better for the EK alliance than the BA one is that people don't want to be routed via LHR. But the lack of Premium Economy effectively means that Australian passengers must either route via SYD/MEL or travel on a different carrier.


User currently offlineZEDZAG From Croatia, joined May 2012, 47 posts, RR: 0
Reply 43, posted (1 year 8 months 4 hours ago) and read 18962 times:

I just saw that QF 5/6 SYD-SIN-FRA is still operating, wasn't there a word that its getting axed when this tie-up starts?

User currently offlineEK413 From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 4987 posts, RR: 4
Reply 44, posted (1 year 8 months 3 hours ago) and read 18405 times:

Quoting ZEDZAG (Reply 43):

I just saw that QF 5/6 SYD-SIN-FRA is still operating, wasn't there a word that its getting axed when this tie-up starts?

Yes, it's being axed as of the 15th of April & retimed...

EK413



Good evening, ladies and gentlemen. We are tonight’s entertainment!
User currently offlineFocker From Netherlands, joined Jan 2011, 159 posts, RR: 0
Reply 45, posted (1 year 8 months 3 hours ago) and read 18238 times:

Will QF remove Premium Economy from its 380's?

User currently offlineEK413 From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 4987 posts, RR: 4
Reply 46, posted (1 year 8 months 3 hours ago) and read 18210 times:

Quoting Focker (Reply 45):
Will QF remove Premium Economy from its 380's?

Definitely not! Qantas have spent $$$ refurbishing the A380 & B744 (x9) fleet...

EK413



Good evening, ladies and gentlemen. We are tonight’s entertainment!
User currently offlineRyanairGuru From Australia, joined Oct 2006, 5906 posts, RR: 5
Reply 47, posted (1 year 8 months 3 hours ago) and read 17991 times:

Quoting koruman (Reply 42):
two states in which leisure passengers are the most cashed-up - and therefore likely to buy Premium Economy tickets - are Queensland and WA.

I'm sorry, but I think you will find that it is still NSW and VIC. The market is mostly retired investment bankers, partners in commercial law firms and the like, which are still disproportionately centred in Sydney or Melbourne.

Whether that changes over the next decade we will see, but (given that only in the last 12 months has there been competition to BA/QF in W) I still don't see how QF are conceding this market. HKG isn't a good stopover from PER, and even from BNE CX's connection times are pretty inconvenient east bound.

IMHO the biggest threat isn't other W products but heavily discounted J.

Last year my dad and step-mum flew BNE-HKG-FRA-VCE in J with LH (CX BNE-HKG) for less than QF/BA BNE-SIN-LHR-VCE in W. Obviously that isn't good for yield, but it is great for people who would otherwise go in a lower class. Obviously he had to make a value judgment about not earning points on LH, but overall it was clearly a no brainer.

Similarly, I've met somebody whose daughter and grandchildren live in London and they go out at least twice a year on AY J. AY/QF SYD-NRT-HEL-LHR is, so they told me, "always" (at least in their experience) cheaper than QF W. Further, my friend at flight centre told me a while back that OS/TG were offering LON J for $4000.

Quoting miami (Reply 39):
I've been hearing that Qantas will be leaving OneWorld

I've heard that Jesus might be resurrected  
Quoting Focker (Reply 45):
Will QF remove Premium Economy from its 380's?



And why would they do that?!?


Jeez, some of these questions are mind boggling.



Worked Hard, Flew Right
User currently offlinekoruman From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 48, posted (1 year 8 months ago) and read 16150 times:

Hi RyanairGuru
I had a similar conversation with my parents, but at the time the cheapest Business Class to Europe was around $5.4K. They want more comfort than Economy, but their budget tops out at $8K for the pair of them.

Personally I think that it's time for EK to add a Premium Economy cabin anyway.


User currently offlineek433 From New Zealand, joined Mar 2009, 23 posts, RR: 0
Reply 49, posted (1 year 8 months ago) and read 16048 times:

Quoting koruman (Reply 48):
Personally I think that it's time for EK to add a Premium Economy cabin anyway.

I think that is highly unlikely, although as has been previously mentioned/suggested there is likely to be a Y/J only cabin config on some upcoming A380's...


User currently offlinefiscal From Australia, joined Oct 2009, 334 posts, RR: 0
Reply 50, posted (1 year 8 months ago) and read 16000 times:

From a FF redemption point of view, it seems that not many of EK's European destinations have been included, using EK direct flights to Dubai. This maybe due to a gradual upload of seats, but maybe there has been a restriction placed on these locations?

Redemption points required have also increased, about 5% - 6% on the ones I tested, but It seems that QF/EK company fees have jumped up a quite a bit as well. A PER/LHR was $1200 - $1300 for a business class return.


User currently offlineek433 From New Zealand, joined Mar 2009, 23 posts, RR: 0
Reply 51, posted (1 year 8 months ago) and read 15827 times:

Quoting fiscal (Reply 50):

I think Emirates is having a few teething issues with their new website after integrating skywards.com into emirates.com because when I was playing around with it yesterday it was quoting some crazy prices and it wasn't displaying prices for AKL-LHR (for example) on any date combination for the next year!


User currently offlinePVG From Hong Kong, joined Dec 2004, 727 posts, RR: 2
Reply 52, posted (1 year 8 months ago) and read 15684 times:

Quoting Lofty (Reply 26):

I fly a lot like many people on here. Flying on EK through DXB, to put it bluntly: SUCKS! It used to be cheap, but no longer. I think that QF is going to lose clients to airlines and airports that provide a true premium experience.


User currently offlineQFVHOQA From Australia, joined Mar 2012, 491 posts, RR: 0
Reply 53, posted (1 year 7 months 4 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 14590 times:

According to the Brisbane Times:

Quote:
''The Dubai-London is actually one of the top-selling sectors with the Emirates code on it,'' he said. ''Emirates said we could deal with more capacity on Dubai-London.''
Some industry insiders have questioned Qantas' ability to fill seats between Dubai and London. Many passengers flying from Australia will get off in Dubai to catch connecting flights to destinations in continental Europe.
Alliance surge fuels Qantas
I remember there was some talk of QF having half-full flights DXB-LHR as many pax would disembark at DXB for other EU destinations. Seems that apart from access to the QF frequent flyer base, EK wanted more flights to LHR.


User currently offlineLufthansa From Christmas Island, joined May 1999, 3224 posts, RR: 10
Reply 54, posted (1 year 7 months 4 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 13912 times:

There is something else a lot of you are forgetting that EK brings to the QF table.

That is this by far dawfs and stops defection to virgin Australia's similar but nowhere near as attractive efforts with Etihad. What this means, is those, who were tempted to defect for the European trip won't change the Australian domestic and Australia - USA flights to Virgin Australia, but will in fact stay with QF. This shores up QF frequent flyer loyalty through the rest of the non-euorpean network. Especially if these people by premium tickets as that's a lot of points/status to potentially miss. Even if sometimes its gonna cost ppl a little more to buy QF coded flights. Some will say its worth it.

The flipside will be ppl defect to Virgin Australia's frequent flyer program and that treatens QF flights to Asia and North america as well as reduces profits for QF domestically. This is an important strategic move.


User currently offlinelightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 13439 posts, RR: 100
Reply 55, posted (1 year 7 months 4 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 13731 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting mariner (Reply 36):
So it is, so far at least, a two way street.

Definitely looks like both are benefiting and with the fare cooperation now allowed, that will improve for both the revenue too.

Quoting jayeshrulz (Reply 40):
but the latter will never happen. EK will never join any alliance.

Understatement. EK will form their own alliance.

Quoting QFVHOQA (Reply 53):
''The Dubai-London is actually one of the top-selling sectors with the Emirates code on it,'' he said. ''Emirates said we could deal with more capacity on Dubai-London.''

A win win for revenue. Which implies that when the leased out QF slots become available again, QF will take them back and use them to shuffle passengers LHR-DXB.

Quoting QFVHOQA (Reply 53):
I remember there was some talk of QF having half-full flights DXB-LHR as many pax would disembark at DXB for other EU destinations.

I remember that talk too. It seems like many want this JV to split. But its here. From the announcement, it was a money maker for the two participants. I'm sure there will be aspects to 'shake out,' but I suspect this JV will grow with time.

Lightsaber



Societies that achieve a critical mass of ideas achieve self sustaining growth; others stagnate.
User currently offlineSCQ83 From United States of America, joined Oct 2012, 1100 posts, RR: 0
Reply 56, posted (1 year 7 months 4 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 13363 times:

Quoting QFVHOQA (Reply 53):
Alliance surge fuels Qantas
I remember there was some talk of QF having half-full flights DXB-LHR as many pax would disembark at DXB for other EU destinations. Seems that apart from access to the QF frequent flyer base, EK wanted more flights to LHR.

Is this completely metal-neutral? Would it be possible to fly i.e. LHR-DXB with Qantas and then DXB-XXX with Emirates (other than Australia)? I understand it would... in that case it would be a win-win situation for EK, they "get" two additional daily A380s to the most crowded and premium airport in Europe.

Quoting Lufthansa (Reply 54):
There is something else a lot of you are forgetting that EK brings to the QF table.

That is this by far dawfs and stops defection to virgin Australia's similar but nowhere near as attractive efforts with Etihad. What this means, is those, who were tempted to defect for the European trip won't change the Australian domestic and Australia - USA flights to Virgin Australia, but will in fact stay with QF. This shores up QF frequent flyer loyalty through the rest of the non-euorpean network. Especially if these people by premium tickets as that's a lot of points/status to potentially miss. Even if sometimes its gonna cost ppl a little more to buy QF coded flights. Some will say its worth it.

The flipside will be ppl defect to Virgin Australia's frequent flyer program and that treatens QF flights to Asia and North america as well as reduces profits for QF domestically. This is an important strategic move.

True, but I feel it would be even more obvious in Europe. Emirates' network and brand awareness in Europe is ages ahead of Etihad's. Except for some very particular markets (BRU where EY flies and EK does not; or DUB where EY has been for longer), EK has way more destinations, frequencies and seats to almost anywhere else.


User currently offlineLufthansa From Christmas Island, joined May 1999, 3224 posts, RR: 10
Reply 57, posted (1 year 7 months 4 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 12220 times:

Quoting SCQ83 (Reply 56):
Except for some very particular markets (BRU where EY flies and EK does not; or DUB where EY has been for longer), EK has way more destinations, frequencies and seats to almost anywhere else.

And if they're in skywards, they'll then fly QF domestically, especially if its all on one ticket.


User currently offlineUnited Airline From Hong Kong, joined Jan 2001, 9191 posts, RR: 15
Reply 58, posted (1 year 7 months 4 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 11862 times:

Will HKG/SIN/BKK-LHR return one day? Do they still have the rights?

User currently offlineAirNiugini From Australia, joined Mar 2010, 253 posts, RR: 0
Reply 59, posted (1 year 7 months 4 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 11883 times:

Quoting United Airline (Reply 58):

Nope... DXB is the hub from here on in for Europe, the Mid East and Northern Africa... SIN and HKG will be QF and JQ's hubs in Asia for now.



Its time to fly!
User currently offlineEK413 From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 4987 posts, RR: 4
Reply 60, posted (1 year 7 months 4 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 11735 times:

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 55):
Quoting jayeshrulz (Reply 40):
but the latter will never happen. EK will never join any alliance.

Understatement. EK will form their own alliance.

Quoting QFVHOQA (Reply 53):
''The Dubai-London is actually one of the top-selling sectors with the Emirates code on it,'' he said. ''Emirates said we could deal with more capacity on Dubai-London.''

Agreed... This is just the beginning...

EK413



Good evening, ladies and gentlemen. We are tonight’s entertainment!
User currently offlinesierra3tango From Bahrain, joined Mar 2013, 371 posts, RR: 0
Reply 61, posted (1 year 7 months 4 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 11703 times:

What sort of timings are QF's DXB/LHR/DXB? might give it a try

Also are they considered 'OneWorld' flights for FF purposes?


User currently offlineEK413 From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 4987 posts, RR: 4
Reply 62, posted (1 year 7 months 4 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 11666 times:

Welcome to Dubai Qantas Australia's National carrier...  

EK413



Good evening, ladies and gentlemen. We are tonight’s entertainment!
User currently onlineSYDSpotter From Australia, joined Oct 2012, 241 posts, RR: 0
Reply 63, posted (1 year 7 months 4 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 11587 times:

Quoting EK413 (Reply 62):
Welcome to Dubai Qantas Australia's National carrier...

Thanks for the pics, this must be the return sector from LHR? The flights from SYD/MEL get in around midnight local time don't they?



319_320_321_332_333_388 / 734_737_738_743_744_762_763_772_773_77W
User currently onlineSYDSpotter From Australia, joined Oct 2012, 241 posts, RR: 0
Reply 64, posted (1 year 7 months 4 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 11517 times:

Quoting QFVHOQA (Reply 53):
I remember there was some talk of QF having half-full flights DXB-LHR as many pax would disembark at DXB for other EU destinations. Seems that apart from access to the QF frequent flyer base, EK wanted more flights to LHR.

Having done a quick search of flights just then, QF actually have some pretty attractive timings from DXB-LHR, their flights get into LHR at 5.30am and 6.35am respectively. Obviously this timing is more geared towards the business/premium traveller. The earliest EK arrival into LHR is 7am and their next flight doesn't get in until 12pm. For previous the previous business EK customer, the QF flights give them additional options.



319_320_321_332_333_388 / 734_737_738_743_744_762_763_772_773_77W
User currently offlineEK413 From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 4987 posts, RR: 4
Reply 65, posted (1 year 7 months 4 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 11538 times:

Quoting SYDSpotter (Reply 63):
Thanks for the pics, this must be the return sector from LHR? The flights from SYD/MEL get in around midnight local time don't they?

The SYD/MEL inbound flights arrive just after midnight so these photo's would be the LHR inbound flights  

EK413



Good evening, ladies and gentlemen. We are tonight’s entertainment!
User currently offlinesierra3tango From Bahrain, joined Mar 2013, 371 posts, RR: 0
Reply 66, posted (1 year 7 months 4 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 11311 times:

Quoting SYDSpotter (Reply 64):
Having done a quick search of flights just then, QF actually have some pretty attractive timings from DXB-LHR, their flights get into LHR at 5.30am and 6.35am respectively. Obviously this timing is more geared towards the business/premium traveller. The earliest EK arrival into LHR is 7am and their next flight doesn't get in until 12pm. For previous the previous business EK customer, the QF flights give them additional options.

Good timing!! Yuck, Yuck and treble yuck. Who wants an overnight each way on a ~7 hr flight.I certainly won't use them (not with that schedule) but probably EK will fill them up with connections

We now have the following on DXB/LHR/DXB which looks like far too much capacity to me. Wonder who will blick first my guess is VS and or RB, looks like BA have actually upguaged to 2 x 744

Based on mid May schedules

QF DXB-LHR 01:00/05:30 A380
BA DXB-LHR 01:30/05:55 B747
RB DXB-LHR 01:55/06:25 B777
QF DXB-LHR 02:05/06:35 A380
EK DXB-LHR 02:30/07:00 A380
EK DXB-LHR 07:45/12:15 A380
BA DXB-LHR 09:30/14:05 B747
EK DXB-LHR 09:40/14:20 A380
VS DXB-LHR 11:15/15:50 A330
EK DXB-LHR 14:15/18:40 A380
EK DXB-LHR 15:45/20:15 A380


EK LHR-DXB 08:40/18:45 A380
BA LHR-DXB 12:45/22:40 B747
EK LHR-DXB 14:15/00:15 A380
EK LHR-DXB 17:00/02:50 A380
RB LHR-DXB 17:50/03:45 B777
EK LHR-DXB 20:40/06:30 A380
QF LHR-DXB 21:30/07:20 A380
BA LHR-DXB 21:40/07:30 B747
VS LHR-DXB 22:00/08:00 A330
EK LHR-DXB 22:15/08:05 A380
QF LHR-DXB 22:30/08:20 A380

Also QF/EK have 3 x A380 on DXB/LHR between 01:00 /02:30 and 3 x A380 within the space of 1 hour from 21:30 on LHR/DXB
Wouldn't it be better to spread them out a bit? Also why do the QF planes sit around for 12+ hours at LHR?


User currently offlinetayser From Australia, joined Mar 2008, 1134 posts, RR: 0
Reply 67, posted (1 year 7 months 4 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 11223 times:

Slot times + times to arrive back in MEL/SYD... 10:30pm departure LHR arr MEL at 6:30am (+2).

User currently offlineEK413 From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 4987 posts, RR: 4
Reply 68, posted (1 year 7 months 4 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 11247 times:

Quoting sierra3tango (Reply 66):
Wouldn't it be better to spread them out a bit? Also why do the QF planes sit around for 12+ hours at LHR?

More than likely the same reason BA have a B744 sitting around in SYD for 12+, scheduling due to LHR curfew and vice versa for QF SYD curfew...

EK413



Good evening, ladies and gentlemen. We are tonight’s entertainment!
User currently offlinenickofatlanta From Australia, joined May 2000, 1488 posts, RR: 0
Reply 69, posted (1 year 7 months 4 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 11224 times:

[quote=sierra3tango,reply=66][/quote
They sit on the ground for the same reason they do in LA and FRA - to offer timings that are appealing to business travellers.


User currently offlinezkokq From Australia, joined Mar 2012, 479 posts, RR: 0
Reply 70, posted (1 year 7 months 4 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 11220 times:

Quoting rlwynn (Reply 37):
What is with alcohol on Emirates?

The same as most airlines. Plenty to drink of the most popular stuff.

I enjoyed plenty of Jack and Grey Goose from SYD-DXB


User currently onlineSYDSpotter From Australia, joined Oct 2012, 241 posts, RR: 0
Reply 71, posted (1 year 7 months 4 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 11182 times:

Quoting sierra3tango (Reply 66):
Good timing!! Yuck, Yuck and treble yuck. Who wants an overnight each way on a ~7 hr flight.I certainly won't use them (not with that schedule) but probably EK will fill them up with connections

They're not great connections for the majority of us, but perfect for business travellers. They get into LHR first thing in the morning which allows them to get straight into work.



319_320_321_332_333_388 / 734_737_738_743_744_762_763_772_773_77W
User currently offlinekoruman From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 72, posted (1 year 7 months 4 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 10912 times:

SYDspotter,
A couple of times each year I fly from Australia to the UK on business, in business class.

But it's not like JFK-LHR.

I wouldn't dream of going straight to a meeting, smelly, dopey and dishevelled. I want to get to my hotel room, shower, have an early dinner and an early night, ready to work the next day.

A flight arriving at 0600 or 0700 is pretty much useless to me.


User currently onlineSYDSpotter From Australia, joined Oct 2012, 241 posts, RR: 0
Reply 73, posted (1 year 7 months 4 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 10855 times:

Quoting koruman (Reply 72):
A couple of times each year I fly from Australia to the UK on business, in business class.

But it's not like JFK-LHR.

I wouldn't dream of going straight to a meeting, smelly, dopey and dishevelled. I want to get to my hotel room, shower, have an early dinner and an early night, ready to work the next day.

A flight arriving at 0600 or 0700 is pretty much useless to me.

Might be useless to you but that's what the wider market demands. Have a look at CX, SQ, MH etc and their key flights from Oz-LHR are all timed to arrive in LHR first thing in the morning.



319_320_321_332_333_388 / 734_737_738_743_744_762_763_772_773_77W
User currently offlineRyanairGuru From Australia, joined Oct 2006, 5906 posts, RR: 5
Reply 74, posted (1 year 7 months 4 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 10801 times:

Quoting koruman (Reply 48):
but at the time the cheapest Business Class to Europe was around $5.4K

These are pretty special fairs, if they exist on (or around) your dates then they're fantastic otherwise heigh-ho...

Obviously they are useless to business travellers, they have very limited inventory and therefore have to be booked a long way out. Also they are often only available on Euro carriers with no presence in this country (LH, OS, SK, AY) who - for whatever reason - obviously see some benefit to topping up J with some "cheap" leisure types. Further, and as I alluded to above, these fairs often aren't alliance specific, so for any serious mileage person the lack of FF benefits between the two halves of the route are probably an issue.

Quoting koruman (Reply 48):
I think that it's time for EK to add a Premium Economy cabin anyway.

This I, personally, agree with. But Tim Clark is a smart guy, I'll leave it to him to determine when/if the time is right



Worked Hard, Flew Right
User currently offlinekoruman From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 75, posted (1 year 7 months 4 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 10738 times:

SYDspotter,
I think you'll find that early LHR arrivals are more curfew-related than a reflection of demand. I've gone to work meetings in London straight off a flight from the US East Coast.

But not from Australia. Too many time zone changes.


User currently onlineSYDSpotter From Australia, joined Oct 2012, 241 posts, RR: 0
Reply 76, posted (1 year 7 months 4 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 10649 times:

Quoting koruman (Reply 75):
I think you'll find that early LHR arrivals are more curfew-related than a reflection of demand. I've gone to work meetings in London straight off a flight from the US East Coast.

But not from Australia. Too many time zone changes.

You'll also find that the early morning arrival slots at LHR happen to be the most valuable as well. You might not go into work straight off your flights but many others do.



319_320_321_332_333_388 / 734_737_738_743_744_762_763_772_773_77W
User currently offlineFocker From Netherlands, joined Jan 2011, 159 posts, RR: 0
Reply 77, posted (1 year 7 months 4 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 10677 times:

Quoting RyanairGuru (Reply 47):
Quoting Focker (Reply 45):
Will QF remove Premium Economy from its 380's?



And why would they do that?!?


Jeez, some of these questions are mind boggling.

Why is that mind boggling?

I was just wondering as EK does not offer Premium Economy, how this will work out? Say I want to fly SYD-MAN, preferably in Premium Economy.

So can I book Y+ on QF for the SYD-DXB sector? But what about transferring onto EK for DXB-MAN? Can you book per sector? Y+ on QF followed by Y on EK?

I would expect travellers would prefer a consistent choice of product on their journey. I for one would.

Hence the question. As one solution would be to offer the same classes on both airlines, which would imply that QF has to remove Y+ or EK has to start offering Y+. I'd be happy with the latter, but don't see it happening soon.


User currently offlinesierra3tango From Bahrain, joined Mar 2013, 371 posts, RR: 0
Reply 78, posted (1 year 7 months 4 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 10665 times:

Quoting SYDSpotter (Reply 73):
Might be useless to you but that's what the wider market demands. Have a look at CX, SQ, MH etc and their key flights from Oz-LHR are all timed to arrive in LHR first thing in the morning.

Somewhere up thread there was some talk of QF flights flying DXB/LHR sectors half empty because so many PAX had got off in DXB to join other EK flights to Europe. So I thought lets have & look - maybe give it a try. Well the answer is above, but if that's my opinion as a UAE resident they'll be plenty of others thinking the same. A few like overnights, some suffer them but few of us do it out of choice & as you can see there is plenty of choice without even looking at the miriad of one stop choices available. So will QF flights continue to / from LHR half empty. Probably not, EK will probably fill them up but I do wonder with 2 x QF + 2 x EK (all 388)+ 1 x BA (744) + 1 x VS (333) all departing LHR in less than a 2 hour timeframe from 20.40.

Wider market demands ? More like the self interest of the airlines

Probably happens because airlines want inbound PAX to connect (in the case of SYD/MEL LHR arrivals) onto SH flights and if they arrive late afternoon the choice is more limited where the airport has a night curfew.


User currently offlineZuluAlpha From Thailand, joined Mar 2010, 416 posts, RR: 0
Reply 79, posted (1 year 7 months 4 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 10489 times:

Quoting nclmedic (Reply 32):
With all QF flights ex-LHR now flying to DXB what's likely to become of Qantas Cabin Crew UK Ltd., the UK based crew that have historically operated the first leg of the Kangaroo routes? I know there's been some uncertainty hanging over their future for some time....

I have been advised that the QF Cabin Crew UK base recently advertised arabic speaking flight attendants. The advertisement was internal only, I do not know if it made it to the public.

Quoting fiscal (Reply 50):
it seems that not many of EK's European destinations have been included, using EK direct flights to Dubai. This maybe due to a gradual upload of seats, but maybe there has been a restriction placed on these locations?

My understanding is (and I would like some assistants from regular EK points users here?), that the availability was fine. It was a case that there just weren't many seats, the seat availability when using your QF points is no different in using EK points. So EK members have been able to book these EK seats, using their points for .. for ever. QF has only been able to gain access to these seats that EK members use since yesterday.

Quoting SCQ83 (Reply 56):
Is this completely metal-neutral? Would it be possible to fly i.e. LHR-DXB

Yes. on the trunk routes that both QF and EK metal operate it is metal neutral. So the revenue is shared evenly. On the secondary routes where QF does not operate (e.g. CDG MXP .. well everywhere else), QF will receive a commission for the seats they book (regardless under the QF flight number or the EK flight number).

Also on the 4th April QF and EK will release it's Joint fares, where earlier us .netters were talking about some fare discrepancies, these discrepancies should disappear



CRJ CR7 D10 DHT DH8 DH2 DH3 DH4 EMB ER3 E90 F28 J32 M80 SH6 320 332 333 380 717 732 733 734 738 743 744 752 762 763 772
User currently offline3rdGen From Bahrain, joined Jul 2011, 240 posts, RR: 0
Reply 80, posted (1 year 7 months 4 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 10002 times:

So what happens to QF and Oneworld? Its a little strange that they are in this JV with Emirates and in an alliance with QR.

User currently offlineAuchmithie From UK - England, joined Sep 2010, 145 posts, RR: 0
Reply 81, posted (1 year 7 months 4 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 9768 times:

Quoting mariner (Reply 36):
Seven times more Emirates pax were booking onto Qantas domestic than last year. So it is, so far at least, a two way street.

So this means that seven times more passengers are through-ticketing from Emirates services onto Qantas Domestic. It certainly doesn't mean that these passengers weren't previously flying Emirates and QANTAS Domestic via separate tickets.


User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25566 posts, RR: 86
Reply 82, posted (1 year 7 months 4 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 9699 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting Auchmithie (Reply 81):
So this means that seven times more passengers are through-ticketing from Emirates services onto Qantas Domestic. It certainly doesn't mean that these passengers weren't previously flying Emirates and QANTAS Domestic via separate tickets.

Hmmm? Presumably it is the quantifiable number.   

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlineLufthansa From Christmas Island, joined May 1999, 3224 posts, RR: 10
Reply 83, posted (1 year 7 months 4 weeks 1 day ago) and read 9108 times:

Quoting ZuluAlpha (Reply 79):
Yes. on the trunk routes that both QF and EK metal operate it is metal neutral. So the revenue is shared evenly. On the secondary routes where QF does not operate (e.g. CDG MXP .. well everywhere else), QF will receive a commission for the seats they book (regardless under the QF flight number or the EK flight number).

Also on the 4th April QF and EK will release it's Joint fares, where earlier us .netters were talking about some fare discrepancies, these discrepancies should disappear

Very interesting. I was wondering how this would work. Especially up the front, because with some of the current price differences its a little hard to justify the status credits etc when you can get them all on cathay for a similar price to the EK ticked flight, but not on the same aircraft for the QF ticketed flight. Of course, we're all gagging to be able to use the EK operated flight first!


User currently offlineZuluAlpha From Thailand, joined Mar 2010, 416 posts, RR: 0
Reply 84, posted (1 year 7 months 4 weeks 23 hours ago) and read 8905 times:

Quoting 3rdGen (Reply 80):
So what happens to QF and Oneworld? Its a little strange that they are in this JV with Emirates and in an alliance with QR.

Yes it is a little strange, but have a look from another alliance, EY and AB have a very close codeshare relationship, AB are a member of oneworld also EY have a close relationship with VA (and correct me if I am wrong, they partly own both AB and VA).

Also, hasn't it been mentioned in the past that QF and MU are talking as well?



CRJ CR7 D10 DHT DH8 DH2 DH3 DH4 EMB ER3 E90 F28 J32 M80 SH6 320 332 333 380 717 732 733 734 738 743 744 752 762 763 772
User currently offlineFlyboyOz From Australia, joined Nov 2000, 1987 posts, RR: 25
Reply 85, posted (1 year 7 months 4 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 8888 times:

Try to work out whether the planes would be full in summer time...


The Spirit of AustraliAN - Longreach
User currently offlineEK413 From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 4987 posts, RR: 4
Reply 86, posted (1 year 7 months 4 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 8839 times:

Quoting ZuluAlpha (Reply 84):
Quoting 3rdGen (Reply 80):
So what happens to QF and Oneworld? Its a little strange that they are in this JV with Emirates and in an alliance with QR.

Yes it is a little strange, but have a look from another alliance, EY and AB have a very close codeshare relationship, AB are a member of oneworld also EY have a close relationship with VA (and correct me if I am wrong, they partly own both AB and VA).

Also, hasn't it been mentioned in the past that QF and MU are talking as well?

Certainly is strange, but its common these days...

Qantas formed an Alliance with EK, & partnership deal with MU (Sky) to form JQ Hong Kong & codesharing on MU mainland China services...

The EY / AB relationship indeed is very interesting... Let's see, EY have shares in AB (OW) & VA (nil alliance) codeshare on AB, AF/KL (Sky) VA, GA (Sky) services... While on the other flip side VA codeshare with NZ, SQ, (Star) & DL (Sky) services...

What a mess that turned out to be lol...

EK413



Good evening, ladies and gentlemen. We are tonight’s entertainment!
User currently offline3rdGen From Bahrain, joined Jul 2011, 240 posts, RR: 0
Reply 87, posted (1 year 7 months 4 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 8609 times:

Quoting EK413 (Reply 86):
Certainly is strange, but its common these days...

So will we see the current state of partnerships and alliances continue or is it a matter of time before there is some reshuffling?


User currently offlineEK413 From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 4987 posts, RR: 4
Reply 88, posted (1 year 7 months 4 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 8536 times:

Quoting 3rdGen (Reply 87):

Quoting EK413 (Reply 86):
Certainly is strange, but its common these days...

So will we see the current state of partnerships and alliances continue or is it a matter of time before there is some reshuffling?

Before we get sidetracked from the original topic, to answer your question my personal opinion AB won't last in OW... Considering EY is a shareholder they will have an influence which way the wind will sway...
As for Qantas, OW plays a key role in their operations therefore I doubt they will leave anytime soon...

EK413



Good evening, ladies and gentlemen. We are tonight’s entertainment!
User currently offlineQFVHOQA From Australia, joined Mar 2012, 491 posts, RR: 0
Reply 89, posted (1 year 7 months 4 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 8517 times:

Quoting ZuluAlpha (Reply 84):
Quoting 3rdGen (Reply 80):
So what happens to QF and Oneworld? Its a little strange that they are in this JV with Emirates and in an alliance with QR.

Yes it is a little strange, but have a look from another alliance, EY and AB have a very close codeshare relationship, AB are a member of oneworld also EY have a close relationship with VA (and correct me if I am wrong, they partly own both AB and VA).

Also, hasn't it been mentioned in the past that QF and MU are talking as well?

Not to mention AB also now codeshares with AF/KL.

I doubt QF will codeshare with QR, considering they also don't codeshare with CX or S7. Prior to the EK alliance, QF also codeshared with AF to CDG over using CX. So it's not the first time they choose a non-oneworld member over members.


User currently offlinejrfspa320 From Australia, joined Sep 2005, 253 posts, RR: 0
Reply 90, posted (1 year 7 months 4 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 8481 times:

While I can see the merits of joining with EK, I do think EK benefit more than QF especially by gaining extra slots and rights to LHR and Europe. I do think the EK 777 are fine on European flights but the longer flights to per/bne/adl I would personally avoid and would prefer the QF A330s.
I think pairing with one o the new oneworld members (qatar or Malaysian would have worked better)
It's a shame the option of flying via SIN on BA isn't bookable too, living in drw the new european routing involves a 6-8 hour detour via Southern capitals....I know it's not an important market but it's just basically been handed to SQ


User currently onlinegemuser From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 5763 posts, RR: 6
Reply 91, posted (1 year 7 months 4 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 8379 times:

Quoting jrfspa320 (Reply 90):
EK benefit more than QF especially by gaining extra slots and rights to LHR and Europe

What extra slots & rights to Europe do EK gain from the deal with QF? See up thread but QF seemed to have gained substantial traffic already because of the increased connectivity via DXB

Quoting jrfspa320 (Reply 90):
I think pairing with one o the new oneworld members (qatar or Malaysian would have worked better)

Why? When EK offer many more European ports than either or both together.

Quoting jrfspa320 (Reply 90):
I do think the EK 777 are fine on European flights but the longer flights to per/bne/adl I would personally avoid and would prefer the QF A330s.

This bit I agree with this, as I find 10 abreast B777 to be evilly uncomfortable.

Gemuser



DC23468910;B72172273373G73873H74374475275376377L77W;A319 320321332333343;BAe146;C402;DHC6;F27;L188;MD80MD85
User currently offlineqf002 From Australia, joined Jul 2011, 2994 posts, RR: 2
Reply 92, posted (1 year 7 months 4 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 7706 times:

Quoting SYDSpotter (Reply 71):
They're not great connections for the majority of us, but perfect for business travellers. They get into LHR first thing in the morning which allows them to get straight into work.

They're good for people travelling to/from DXB, but pretty ordinary for people flying straight through from Australia. The trip over Asia allows one to get a proper nights sleep (ie have dinner on the first leg, then go straight to sleep after the stop and wake up in time for breakfast a couple of hours out from Europe), whereas the new trip via DXB means that your sleep is interrupted in the middle of the night by the fuel stop.

I'm not a corporate traveller, but if I was then I'd probably be going for a flight over Asia if I was going straight to work from LHR...

Quoting Focker (Reply 77):
Why is that mind boggling?

Because QF is far larger than Europe alone. Removing W to align with EK in one part of their network has broader impacts on their services to North/South America, Africa and Asia.

I can understand the issues that exist with inconsistency, but it's not an issue for QF/EK while so few other airlines offer a comparable service (with only CX and AF offering service to markets outside LHR with a W product). It's certainly not something they're going to get rid of when there is still good money to be made offering it to LHR bound customers.

Quoting jrfspa320 (Reply 90):
qatar or Malaysian would have worked better

How do you figure? MH is financially unstable and has a track record of making exceptionally poor decisions, while QR lacks the coverage that EK offers (both here and in Europe). EK has proven that it can make big money in the Australia-Europe market, so why wouldn't QF want to work with them over smaller players?

Personally I think QF was extremely lucky to get EK on board. This partnership has set them up in the best possible way to make money out of Europe.


User currently offlineLufthansa From Christmas Island, joined May 1999, 3224 posts, RR: 10
Reply 93, posted (1 year 7 months 4 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 7555 times:

Quoting qf002 (Reply 92):
Personally I think QF was extremely lucky to get EK on board. This partnership has set them up in the best possible way to make money out of Europe.

I second that, this gives them the chance to make a strategic hit, in depth in a way the previously had basically already lost. This out moves the domestic competition and places it firmly in the premier hub of the region. It also opens the door for something that would have been unthinkable on their own. Feed from a hub outside australia strong enough to support future potential european destinations. Now why would EK want to do that? It's reaching the limits in some places in europe and can ad very little capacity to the market.


User currently offlineEK413 From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 4987 posts, RR: 4
Reply 94, posted (1 year 7 months 4 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 7201 times:

Quoting qf002 (Reply 92):
Quoting Lufthansa (Reply 93):

I third that, strategically this has placed QF in position with potential to return to Europe once their back in the black in 2015/16... By then hopefully the B787's battery issues would've been resolved (sarcasm) & next batch of A380's due for delivery... I understand there's a number of destinations EK have restrictions on expanding on their own merit therefore QF can operate with their metal & utilise EK's feed via DXB...

EK413



Good evening, ladies and gentlemen. We are tonight’s entertainment!
User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25566 posts, RR: 86
Reply 95, posted (1 year 7 months 4 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 7189 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting EK413 (Reply 94):
I third that, strategically this has placed QF in position with potential to return to Europe once their back in the black in 2015/16...

I fourth it - LOL.

It's that I don't understand why "more Europe" is considered so desirable by so many.

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlineL0VE2FLY From United States of America, joined Dec 2012, 1630 posts, RR: 0
Reply 96, posted (1 year 7 months 4 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 7071 times:

Quoting CXfirst (Reply 19):
It was fun seeing QF1 over the Great Australian Bight of FlightRadar!

-CXfirst

And it was weird seeing Qantas birds overfly the Persian Gulf, Kuwait & Iraq.


User currently offlinenickofatlanta From Australia, joined May 2000, 1488 posts, RR: 0
Reply 97, posted (1 year 7 months 3 weeks 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 6634 times:

Quoting EK413 (Reply 88):

Agree re AB not lasting in oneworld. Just read a report that AB is going to start code sharing on VA flights SYD-AUH.


User currently offlinemultimark From Canada, joined Jul 2006, 797 posts, RR: 0
Reply 98, posted (1 year 7 months 3 weeks 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 6584 times:

Quoting EK413 (Reply 14):
Perhaps you have a far better choice? From memory a number of European airlines have pulled out the Australasian route, KL, OS, NG, OA, LH, AZ just to name a few...

EK413

Yes, because the Australian gov't rolled over and let the EK trojan horse in, now you've got a rump flag carrier.


User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25566 posts, RR: 86
Reply 99, posted (1 year 7 months 3 weeks 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 6416 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting multimark (Reply 98):
Yes, because the Australian gov't rolled over and let the EK trojan horse in, now you've got a rump flag carrier.

Emirates is just an airline - competently managed and consistently profitable, unlike most of the airlines on EK413's list.

It isn't a Cookie Monster, like, say, Lufthansa, gobbling up other airlines to get rid of the competition.

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlineQFVHOQA From Australia, joined Mar 2012, 491 posts, RR: 0
Reply 100, posted (1 year 7 months 3 weeks 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 6355 times:

Quoting multimark (Reply 98):
Yes, because the Australian gov't rolled over and let the EK trojan horse in, now you've got a rump flag carrier.

Why shouldn't the Australian government allow EK access? QF is not government owned so should be allowed to stand or fall on it's own (though if this were really true the Qantas Sale Act would be gone).

EK's presence in the Australian market has likely increased the overall market to an extent that the Australian economy is better for it.


User currently offlineBenSandilands From Australia, joined Mar 2013, 220 posts, RR: 1
Reply 101, posted (1 year 7 months 3 weeks 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 6275 times:

Emirates has brought far more to Australia than it has taken.

In the late 90s, after LH and then its Condor leisure brand had quit the Germany-Australia market Emirates had become the default, and highly effective major carrier between Germany and Australia and the ATC, now Tourism Australia, would brief reporters on its welcome success at addressing what were then and may still be the country of origin tourists who stayed the longest in this country, travel the most widely, and spend the most money.

This remains one of the most significant benefits of Emirates in this country, in that it starting to bring here emerging and valuable sources of leisure travel we didn't even recognise as significant, and in some quarters still don't.

For myself, the issue in the Qantas-Emirates partnership is what it does for Qantas, and other related management issues.

One big plus for Qantas is allowing it to fully utlised its code share allocations on some European routes. Which is what it was driving at when it said some routes were selling six times as many seats as before. By way of general example, this doesn't mean it will get thousands of extra customers flying on a code share to say Milan in an EK flight, but it does mean that if Qantas had for argument sake a code share allocation of 600 seats a week, no matter how code shared, and is now selling 600 seats not 100 as before, that is good.

Which is also why those who monitor the IASC that regulates access to traffic allocations to carriers using Australian airports will have noticed it is suddenly receiving so many claims by Virgin Australia for its share of the goodies. As it should, and in fact confirmed this morning in relation to apply for Germany allocations to be code shared off connecting Air Berlin flights in Abu Dhabi.

I think the negatives for consumers are fairly well dealt with by ACCC chair Rod Sims in his various statements.

They are outweighed by benefits, but not by a large margin. I think there is much more in this for Emirates than Qantas, but it is a great pity Qantas didn't have the wits to extend its original code share deal with EK before it expired in 2003, when it could have driven more advantages to itself, and perhaps have flown 777-200ERs from the Australian cities it has now dropped from direct London flights non-stop to Dubai for connections courtesy code share with EK to a growing network.

Although I notice the logic is rejected by some observers, Alan Joyce has now twice spoken on the record about the future opportunity to in fact do just that, and fly 787-9s to Dubai from cities other than Sydney and Melbourne and then onwards to cities in Europe it has previously dropped or not even considered.

In another place I have found and published some of the material the ACCC may have relied upon when it rejected the Qantas argument that its long haul business was failing or that being an end carrier, rather than based somewhere in the middle meant that it could be forced out of the Europe market.

Joyce's subsequent comments about new European services also contradict (but in a welcome way) the Qantas public submissions to the ACCC in support of the Emirates partnership.


User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25566 posts, RR: 86
Reply 102, posted (1 year 7 months 3 weeks 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 6269 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting BenSandilands (Reply 101):
In another place I have found and published some of the material the ACCC may have relied upon when it rejected the Qantas argument that its long haul business was failing or that being an end carrier, rather than based somewhere in the middle meant that it could be forced out of the Europe market.

I thought the ACCC agreed with the Qantas position on Europe:

http://www.smh.com.au/business/clear...-decline-claim-20130327-2gtfs.html

"In its report granting approval, the regulator accepted Qantas was likely to cut services to Europe with or without the Emirates alliance but said "in all other areas" of its international operations any disadvantages were likely to be offset by its grip on the domestic market and the loyalty of frequent flyers and corporates."

I fully expect Qantas may eventually add a couple of routes to Europe from Dubai, but I don't understand the emphasis being placed on that in the various threads.

As of December 2012, China had replaced the UK as the second largest source of visitors, New Zealand was first.

http://www.abs.gov.au/ausstats/abs@....F1DEACA25696E007FDE66?Opendocument

For my money, Qantas a lot of work to do in Asia, and - for my money - more pressing work.

mariner

[Edited 2013-04-02 22:04:37]


aeternum nauta
User currently offlineBenSandilands From Australia, joined Mar 2013, 220 posts, RR: 1
Reply 103, posted (1 year 7 months 3 weeks 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 6192 times:

The devil is as always in the detail. I think the SMH oversimplified on this occasion. The ACCC specifically rejected the failing business argument, the middle versus end carrier argument, and the cost disadvantage argument. There are some fascinating papers lodged on the ACCC site.

Asia is most certainly a major issue for Qantas. It has no answer to the full service connectivity offered over Singapore by Singapore Airlines and SilkAir, nor by Cathay Pacific over Hong Kong.

Colour me sceptical about a break of gauge to or from Jetstar over Singapore or Hong Kong, which will only serve to encourage those seeking a full service through trip to fly with Singapore Airlines or Cathay Pacific. If the discussions between Cathay Pacific and Virgin Australia produce a similar arrangement in Hong Kong to that being rolled out in Singapore the issue for Qantas becomes even more pressing.


User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25566 posts, RR: 86
Reply 104, posted (1 year 7 months 3 weeks 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 6156 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting BenSandilands (Reply 103):
I think the SMH oversimplified on this occasion.

Maybe the SMH did, but I have read the ACCC papers (I posted the actual ACCC determination in another thread) and I don't think there is a lot of room for confusion about this.

There are, indeed, some interesting papers - one on your own blog - which add colour but seem to me to be largely irrelevant in view of the decision made and I think you said something similar.

In the same paper that I posted previously about inbound visitors there are some interesting numbers, too:

"Other countries in Australia's top ten visitors list include Japan, Singapore, Malaysia, South Korea & Hong Kong - meaning Asian countries are now seven of our top ten source countries for short term visits to Australia"

China's rise is extraordinary - it becomes possible to imagine that it may one day overtake NZ, it's already half way there - and India is climbing up the scale:

"China went from 190,000 visits in 2002 to 630,000 in 2012, and India from 45,000 to 160,000."

So while I am sympathetic to the idea of - say - DXB-BER one day, I am much more pleased to hear Alan Joyce talk of a return to PEK and to India.

As to Qantas/Jetstar debate, it will be what it will be, and Mr Joyce has given us so many bonuses, from the crucial grounding to the Emirates deal, I believe he has the best interests of Qantas at heart.

mariner

[Edited 2013-04-02 22:48:21]


aeternum nauta
User currently offlineBenSandilands From Australia, joined Mar 2013, 220 posts, RR: 1
Reply 105, posted (1 year 7 months 3 weeks 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 6077 times:

Mariner,

The grounding cost $196 million and seriously mislead and inconvenienced many passengers.

It would not have cost Qantas anything like $196 million to notify FWA that it would close the airline down in 48 or 72 hours time for the convincing reasons it put to the tribunal. The same orders and subsequent determinations that FWA made would have still been made. Indeed they could have been made in the same time frame had Qantas made an urgent application to FWA since that is what the relevant provisions of the act were drawn up to do.

But the 'stunt' was in my opinion, and that of many others, driven by ideological fixations at a board level. It was idiot union radical tendencies meeting rabid mindsets in management and highly divisive.

However many thought it was a terrific idea. I suspect they weren't flying on the day. It was a course of action that divides opinions to this day, including your's and mine, however we might agree that anything Qantas can do to engage its people and improve its product and maintain its standards is a very good thing.


User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25566 posts, RR: 86
Reply 106, posted (1 year 7 months 3 weeks 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 5879 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting BenSandilands (Reply 105):
The grounding cost $196 million and seriously mislead and inconvenienced many passengers.

I'm fully aware of the numbers and I believe it was one of the most crucial decisions Mr. Joyce has made. It dramatically - and essentially - rewrote the relationship with the unions.

It was the game-changer.

Quoting BenSandilands (Reply 105):
But the 'stunt' was in my opinion, and that of many others, driven by ideological fixations at a board level. It was idiot union radical tendencies meeting rabid mindsets in management and highly divisive.

I'm sure there were elements of that in it, and other things as well, as we see in the attitude of the Singleton mob. Far too many loud voices think they can run Qantas better than the people actually doing it.

But I will also go to my grave believing there was another element to it, at least by some, directed more personally at Mr. Joyce.

It is an old Australian concept - push the weak point until it breaks.

Quoting BenSandilands (Reply 105):
However many thought it was a terrific idea. I suspect they weren't flying on the day

Very few that I know thought it was a terrific idea and even fewer here. I felt quite lonely - LOL.

I also suspect a lot of people taking the union side, the anti-Joyce side, weren't flying on days of the union disruptions, either.

Quoting BenSandilands (Reply 105):
It was a course of action that divides opinions to this day, including your's and mine, however we might agree that anything Qantas can do to engage its people and improve its product and maintain its standards is a very good thing.

Sure. But I'm a bit old fashioned. I believe utterly in the other old Australian concept - a fair go.

mariner

[Edited 2013-04-03 01:33:57]


aeternum nauta
User currently offlinezkokq From Australia, joined Mar 2012, 479 posts, RR: 0
Reply 107, posted (1 year 7 months 3 weeks 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 5790 times:

Quoting BenSandilands (Reply 105):
However many thought it was a terrific idea

Hi Ben,

While I wasn't flying that day, even if I had of been I would have still understood the situation.

Wasn't the disruptions hurting forward bookings because of the uncertainties of when and where each division of the company was going to strike?. I think Joyce made the best decision for the airline and shareholders. It showed the unions he wasnt going to cave in and give them everything. Aviation is cut throat and how long can QF survive giving all the time?


User currently offlineEK413 From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 4987 posts, RR: 4
Reply 108, posted (1 year 7 months 3 weeks 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 5669 times:

Quoting multimark (Reply 98):
Yes, because the Australian gov't rolled over and let the EK trojan horse in, now you've got a rump flag carrier.

Based on your comments I can only assume your not a fan of a well managed international icon...

Quoting mariner (Reply 99):
Emirates is just an airline - competently managed and consistently profitable, unlike most of the airlines on EK413's list.

Are you criticising the management of OA & AZ 
Quoting zkokq (Reply 107):
Wasn't the disruptions hurting forward bookings because of the uncertainties of when and where each division of the company was going to strike?. I think Joyce made the best decision for the airline and shareholders. It showed the unions he wasnt going to cave in and give them everything. Aviation is cut throat and how long can QF survive giving all the time?

        

EK413



Good evening, ladies and gentlemen. We are tonight’s entertainment!
User currently offlinekoruman From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 109, posted (1 year 7 months 3 weeks 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 5636 times:

It cost $196 million.

I was a QF high tier frequent flyer, and was looking for a new home as Air NZ removed the most compelling elite benefits.

But I decided I wasn't willing to be used as a pawn by either side in a dysfunctional management-union conflict, and all my domestic flying - around 30 flights already in 2013 - is now on Virgin.

And I don't regret it. I've no wish to fly Emirates, and living 80km from BNE that is what Qantas would require me to do.


User currently offlinezkokq From Australia, joined Mar 2012, 479 posts, RR: 0
Reply 110, posted (1 year 7 months 3 weeks 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 5606 times:

Hi Koruman,

I enjoy what you post, but.

Quoting koruman (Reply 109):
It cost $196 million.

While it cost $190million now, what could it have cost in the future if Alan just sat back and let these rolling stikes happen? Alan Joyce gained alot of fence sitters support, as well as mine.

Its funny how many people complain about Australian owned and being proud of Australian products, yet can not support their countries airlines and then have the hide to complain about it.


User currently offlineEK413 From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 4987 posts, RR: 4
Reply 111, posted (1 year 7 months 3 weeks 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 5476 times:

Quoting zkokq (Reply 110):
While it cost $190million now, what could it have cost in the future if Alan just sat back and let these rolling stikes happen? Alan Joyce gained alot of fence sitters support, as well as mine.

I was one of them & he certainly earned my respect...

EK413



Good evening, ladies and gentlemen. We are tonight’s entertainment!
User currently offlineBenSandilands From Australia, joined Mar 2013, 220 posts, RR: 1
Reply 112, posted (1 year 7 months 3 weeks 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 5340 times:

Quoting zkokq (Reply 107):
Hi Ben,

While I wasn't flying that day, even if I had of been I would have still understood the situation.

Wasn't the disruptions hurting forward bookings because of the uncertainties of when and where each division of the company was going to strike?. I think Joyce made the best decision for the airline and shareholders. It showed the unions he wasnt going to cave in and give them everything. Aviation is cut throat and how long can QF survive giving all the time?
Quoting zkokq (Reply 107):
Hi Ben,

While I wasn't flying that day, even if I had of been I would have still understood the situation.

Wasn't the disruptions hurting forward bookings because of the uncertainties of when and where each division of the company was going to strike?. I think Joyce made the best decision for the airline and shareholders. It showed the unions he wasnt going to cave in and give them everything. Aviation is cut throat and how long can QF survive giving all the time?

Hi zkokq

That's not what I was arguing . I was saying Joyce could have achieved the same result and saved $196 million and the angst it caused customers by simply making an application for an emergency hearing by the FWA to revoke the protected industrial action.

Qantas would not have been denied. The headlines would have been Qantas threatens to close down airline.

Same result, but $196 million ahead, and no reputational damage.

The subsequent FWA determinations awarded new labor agreements that were strictly in line with precedent, and were no more or less than any reasonable person would have expected.

The draft pilot determination made under arbitration the other day is actually a bit ahead of what was asked for, however there are some areas still to be determined, but like most of the media, I've lost interest, other than to wonder what on earth was it all about if after all the posturing everyone ended up where they were always headed in the first place.

If as both Clark and Joyce said in recent days, the partnership sees Qantas return to parts of Europe it had withdrawn from (subject to new capacity agreements) that is exciting. I was there when the original 787 order was placed in December 2005, and using the Dreamliners to do just that was then one of the reasons advanced by Dixon, CEO and Gregg CFO. Putting aside everything that has since happened to the project and to Qantas, a fleet of capable 787s taking Qantas back to Manchester, Amsterdam and Rome will have brought the original concept full circle. It will have taken far longer than ever envisaged in 2005, and no-one would have guessed via Dubai, but its something to support.

As suggested earlier today, the dogs have barked, the caravan has moved on, and it could go somewhere much more interesting than the authorised codeshares and partnership.

[Edited 2013-04-03 04:10:21]

User currently offlinezkokq From Australia, joined Mar 2012, 479 posts, RR: 0
Reply 113, posted (1 year 7 months 3 weeks 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 5248 times:

Quoting BenSandilands (Reply 112):
That's not what I was arguing . I was saying Joyce could have achieved the same result and saved $196 million and the angst it caused customers by simply making an application for an emergency hearing by the FWA to revoke the protected industrial action.

Hi Ben,

Do you think he would have been taken seriously if he didn't close the airline? I think it was more the fact he needed to prove how serious he is.

I think this bought it to the governments attention that Australian companies cant be dictated too. And boy did it put Gillard on the spot (which I thoroughly enjoyed every second)?


Lance


User currently offlineOzGlobal From France, joined Nov 2004, 2729 posts, RR: 4
Reply 114, posted (1 year 7 months 3 weeks 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 5211 times:

So this is supposed to make my life easier as a QF frequent flyer, giving me access to new benefits and options of the alliance. I see NONE.

Unless the fare structure changes drastically, I would be out of my mind to buy a QF ticket from CDG to Oz. Same flights, same aircraft, same dates and times with EK are THOUSANDS of euros cheaper:

CDG-Oz in J: QF 5200 euros, EK 3800
CDG-Oz in F: QF 9000 eruos, EK 5300

As for me, I'll take CX in J and get my status credits, points and best J experience for between 3400 and 4300 all year.

Am I missing something??



When all's said and done, there'll be more said than done.
User currently offlinezkokq From Australia, joined Mar 2012, 479 posts, RR: 0
Reply 115, posted (1 year 7 months 3 weeks 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 5192 times:

Quoting OzGlobal (Reply 114):

Fares are going to be realigned in the coming weeks as has been said many times in various threads.


User currently offlineRyanairGuru From Australia, joined Oct 2006, 5906 posts, RR: 5
Reply 116, posted (1 year 7 months 3 weeks 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 5073 times:

Quoting mariner (Reply 106):
I felt quite lonely

You were, and I sincerely apologise to you if I made it personal

Quoting zkokq (Reply 110):
Alan Joyce gained alot of fence sitters support

Including this former union supporter.

Quoting OzGlobal (Reply 114):
CDG-Oz in J: QF 5200 euros, EK 3800
CDG-Oz in F: QF 9000 eruos, EK 5300
Quoting OzGlobal (Reply 114):
Am I missing something??

Yes, you're about a week early. You've got to understand that EK-QF only received anti-trust approval three days ago. Therefore if they had coordinated fares before then they would both have been guilty of collusion.



Worked Hard, Flew Right
User currently offlineLufthansa From Christmas Island, joined May 1999, 3224 posts, RR: 10
Reply 117, posted (1 year 7 months 3 weeks 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 4811 times:

Quoting mariner (Reply 106):
Far too many loud voices think they can run Qantas better than the people actually doing it.

Ahhh Mariner spot on once again! First of all, let me take this opportunity to welcome the Great Ben Sandilands to our community. That being said, Ben, I have no doubt you're as familiar with all of us as we are with you. So when I say welcome, Please forgive us if the reception is a little different to those who follow your usual blog. First of all, over the years you have indeed raised some very good points. 20 years ago, I was in high school, reading your articles as a young lad just at the very beginning about of learning about this industry we all live and breathe. You raised very relevant points in an article which I think was in Australia Aviation way back in 1994 or there abouts. I remember the A340 was just starting to fly and of course... everybody was wondering why this aircraft wasn't at Qantas as it was perfect for routes like Asia to Amsterdam. You also raised the point that QF ditched many continental european cities handing these markets on a plate to asian Carriers... and the likes of MAS and Thai rose to take much of what was traditionally QF's business. If I remember correctly James Strong responded... no so accommodatingly. This was long before any of us had even heard of Emirates. Hell Air France still flew to Australia.

But I digress. Ben, my criticism is you have consistently failed to explain how Qantas can compete in traditional markets against those with the strength of a hub to offer both larger aircraft, which we know means lower CASM, and higher frequencies, which we know means a revenue premium. That's a fact. It's a basic part of airline economics worldwide. We know EVERY SINGLE EUROPEAN CARRIER, and when I say Europe I mean the real Europe not the British Isles, left Australia. Not one can make it work, all have been forced out by the strength of firstly Asian, and now even stronger Middle Eastern Hubs. QF held it out to the last man standing. A tribute it doesn't get credit for. And now... Now it choses to team up with perhaps the strongest of all potential alliance partners in this market. Nobody else can operate both the size of aircraft...bringing CASM down, and offer the same frequency...and offer the same attractive hub city of Dubai as Emirates does (meaning O and D traffic). This puts them back in the game of a market they've already lost. Thai International alone can offer multiple flights to FRA per day, and then destinations like CPH and ARN and MAD QF is never going to be able to offer. NZ was long ago reduced to just LHR, and BA gave up completely on that market. Yet... I hear continually this charge that QF sold out. I firmly believe, without a hub having the ability to draw traffic, up gage aircraft and increase frequency QF's business model was outdated years ago. So What I'd really like to know... is why do you have such a problem with them teaming up with the best partner they possibly could to offer them a strategic presence, stop the defection of frequent flyers, importantly keeping those same people choosing QF services for other areas like Asia and across the pacific and keeping Virgin at bay? Are we really longing for the golden days of Pan Am, BOAC and friends and resisting change? To me, it rings more of a longing for the golden days then genuine way of moving forward and winning. Which, as a private enterprise, rather than an instrument of national prestige that QF once was, it what QF must do to survive.


User currently offlineqf002 From Australia, joined Jul 2011, 2994 posts, RR: 2
Reply 118, posted (1 year 7 months 3 weeks 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 4759 times:

Quoting multimark (Reply 98):
Yes, because the Australian gov't rolled over and let the EK trojan horse in, now you've got a rump flag carrier.

You're just jealous that competition means our airfares are cheaper than yours...

Quoting BenSandilands (Reply 112):
Same result, but $196 million ahead, and no reputational damage.

By taking such drastic action, QF was able to publicly seize control of a situation that had been spiralling out of control for months. Perhaps the final outcome as far as the contracts/negotiations were concerned would have been the same either way, but the grounding brought a definitive end to the public standoff and allowed the airline to reset and move forward.

Without that reset, QF would have risked a larger chunk of their corporate base moving to VA. They would have been at the mercy of the unions, who would have labeled the move as cowardly and weak. Their public reputation would have been damaged even further, and the unions would have been able to leverage this to try and force QF's hand in the mandatory negotiation period that preceded the FWA decision.

It would have cost them far more than $196m in the long run. Without that firm distinction of before/after, the turbulence would have stayed with the airline long after the FWA rulings were made.

But perhaps I'm wrong. I always supported the grounding so probably have a biased perspective looking back on what happened.

Quoting zkokq (Reply 115):
Quoting OzGlobal (Reply 114):

Fares are going to be realigned in the coming weeks as has been said many times in various threads.

Including multiple mentions in this thread... That's not to say that the fares will be equal across both carriers though -- we often saw quite different prices being quoted for identical flights across BA and QF's websites, so I imagine that there will continue to be some discrepancies.


User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25566 posts, RR: 86
Reply 119, posted (1 year 7 months 3 weeks 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 4584 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting BenSandilands (Reply 112):
Qantas would not have been denied. The headlines would have been Qantas threatens to close down airline.

People say that now, usually as a stick to beat Joyce, but I don't think anyone can say what might have been.

By that time, the campaign against Joyce was so virulent, it was beyond rationality. It had become about power (and the use of power) and Joyce had to assert control - or the unions would have destroyed him.

Quoting RyanairGuru (Reply 116):
You were, and I sincerely apologise to you if I made it personal

Mate, it's mot a problem. All part of the hurly-burly.  

The good news is that Qantas has addressed some aspects of the China issue without waiting for the 787's - a new code share deal with China Eastern.

But that's outside the scope of this thread so I'll probably take it to the main Australian thread - or I assume someone will.

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlineElPistolero From Canada, joined Feb 2012, 1023 posts, RR: 4
Reply 120, posted (1 year 7 months 3 weeks 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 4493 times:

Quoting multimark (Reply 98):

By your logic, AC is a rump carrier, seeing as its as heavily dependent on LH for some destinations as QF is dependent on EK.

A remarkably daft post. Why do some Canadians (not to mention AC itself, as is evident on their website) constantly feel the need to tell Australians that they don't know what they're doing vis-a-vis EK. Maybe it's a knee jerk reaction to all the Australia-Canada comparisons that reflect negatively on Canada. The most recent one to run the comparison was the AF/KL country head in Canada. What does he know about aviation, eh?

Personally, I think QF made the right call. The consolidation certainly isn't going to put a dent in competition. The mediocre carriers got pushed out a long time ago (a point repeatedly made by AC and Canadians, who happily overlook the mediocrity of these 'lost' services).


User currently offlineRyanairGuru From Australia, joined Oct 2006, 5906 posts, RR: 5
Reply 121, posted (1 year 7 months 3 weeks 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 4326 times:

Quoting qf002 (Reply 118):
You're just jealous that competition means our airfares are cheaper than yours...

     

Quoting mariner (Reply 119):
the campaign against Joyce was so virulent, it was beyond rationality. It had become about power (and the use of power) and Joyce had to assert control - or the unions would have destroyed him.

I agree 100%. In hindsight it is easy to say that it wasn't necessary, but that forgets how close we were to the proverbial edge. One would have destroyed the other, it was just a question of which one. I doubt that a declaration from FWA would have achieved much, under the surface at least, without strong man tactics.

Quoting mariner (Reply 119):
a new code share deal with China Eastern.

        

Fantastic news, it now has its own thread

Quoting ElPistolero (Reply 120):
Why do some Canadians (not to mention AC itself, as is evident on their website) constantly feel the need to tell Australians that they don't know what they're doing vis-a-vis EK. Maybe it's a knee jerk reaction to all the Australia-Canada comparisons that reflect negatively on Canada
http://www.aircanada.com/en/about/media/facts/industry/emirates.html

I agree, some of the EK-Canada threads break down into a lecture about everything wrong with Australian aviation policy, despite the fact that many of these so-called "experts" probably know nothing about Australia!



Worked Hard, Flew Right
User currently offlineBenSandilands From Australia, joined Mar 2013, 220 posts, RR: 1
Reply 122, posted (1 year 7 months 3 weeks 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 4030 times:

Hi to Lufthansa, qf002 and all,

Sometimes I end up in a tight space with no internet so apologies for not being able to respond to your kind words, or even unkind ones. I did get time to post elsewhere some discussion in the form of letters between Nick Xenophon and Alan Joyce and Rod Sims, which would be way too long to do here.

I have a very high regard for what Emirates means, and by that, not just as an airline, but as an instrument of government policy to drive outcomes. Similar in some respects to what Lee Kuan Yew outlined to wet-behind-the-ears reporters like me decades ago when the established wisdom regarded him and his vision in all sorts of rude or condescending terms I won't repeat here.

I think the Qantas-Emirates authorisation will bring good but not stellar benefits to Qantas as it stands. The negative is no Qantas metal to anywhere covered by the western hemisphere destinations if you are using Brisbane, Adelaide or Perth airports and are expected instead to fly Emirates. If we really care for Qantas we presumably don't feel all that good if the only thing Qantas is the QF code on the booking, and what it does for your QF or Skywards points and status depending on which membership you use for which flight.

However if going beyond the actual authorisation this renews Qantas connections in its own airliners from the 'lost' Australian cities, to Dubai, and beyond to new or renewed opportunities in Europe, presumably with 787-9s, that's a very exciting and desirable outcome.

A lot will depend on what the various competitors do too.

That's why I agree with the ACCC view that despite everything the partnership strengthens competition.


User currently offlineHH65MAN From Australia, joined Feb 2013, 106 posts, RR: 0
Reply 123, posted (1 year 7 months 3 weeks 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 4017 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

I must admit that after 121 posts concerning this topic it certainly has made for a fascinating read. And that after looking at my original photo posted of the two Goliath looking A380s flying in formation over Sydney Harbour Bridge on a wet and gloomy day I can't shake that feeling it reminds me of a Cold War photo of two bombers lumbering along to their final destiny. Must be my Ol fart age or something....  

User currently offlinezkokq From Australia, joined Mar 2012, 479 posts, RR: 0
Reply 124, posted (1 year 7 months 3 weeks 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 3793 times:

Quoting ElPistolero (Reply 120):

Bit off topic, but the point you make about AC is very valid, and I feel some Canadians are naive about the whole Middle Eastern Situation into Canada. Hopefully the points you have made in this thread an the EK vs Rights to Canada changes their view.

Lance


User currently offlineRyanairGuru From Australia, joined Oct 2006, 5906 posts, RR: 5
Reply 125, posted (1 year 7 months 3 weeks 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 3775 times:

Quoting zkokq (Reply 124):
Hopefully the points you have made in this thread an the EK vs Rights to Canada changes their view.

Unfortunately I wouldn't hold your breath. El Pistolero is, very admirably I might add, fighting something off a one man stand on the Canadian threads regarding this subject.

I know that "respected member" function is totally meaningless, but he is undoubtedly my most respected member on this site. Having read some of his reasoned, logical explanations on other threads and then the vitriol and (frankly) crap that gets flung at him, I believe that he really does deserve respect.



Worked Hard, Flew Right
User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25566 posts, RR: 86
Reply 126, posted (1 year 7 months 3 weeks 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 3702 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Now that the dust has died down, I thought I'd take a look at actual ACCC determination again - my first reading was as an immediate overview, now I looked at the detail and with the thoughts of others in mind.

And there are some ironies floating around, and I love irony. A lot of people are using the ACCC chairman, Rod Sims, as the ultimate authority, which, in terms of competition, I guess he is.

I'm not sure how much Mr. Sims knows about actually running airlines, though, except as an academic/intellectual exercise. He rejects, sort of, some findings of Oxford Economics which takes some chutzpah. No one can accuse him of lacking ego.

This is to take nothing away from Mr. Sims brilliance - he is an economist - but he's also been a bureaucrat for much of his life and he surely doesn't have to answer to any shareholders

Still, the TWU thinks Mr. Sims got it all wrong:

http://www.tandlnews.com.au/2013/04/...s-on-the-qantas-emirates-alliance/

"National Secretary of Transport Workers’ Union Tony Sheldon said while the ACCC rejected Qantas key claims, yet bizarrely it still approved the deal.

“The ACCC has rejected Qantas’ key argument that the airline’s international section was in terminal decline, yet has approved the Qantas/Emirates alliance and confirmed that it did not consider Australia’s national economic, security and employment interests,” Mr Sheldon said.

“The ACCC has proven itself incapable and unwilling to address anything other than a narrowest interpretation of its responsibilities, so it is now time for public policy makers to step in."


But the ACCC is not the Comintern and its brief is quite narrow - so the TWU and sour grapes mingle in my mind.

The TWU wants to appeal against the ruling but now Minister Albanese (he of the curious - and divided - loyalties) is telling them to pull their head in and now we have Senator Xenophon charging into the fray, demanding answers from Qantas about the ACCC comments.

To be fair to that ol' xenophobe, this has been his issue all along - terminal decline - and perhaps he feels that neither Qantas - nor the ACCC - have paid him or it enough attention.

On this note, Senator Xenphon also questioned the role of Dr. Jill Walker on the ACCC because she is also chairwoman of the IASC and might have other confidential information that the ACCC didn't have. So she made some IASC confidential information about Qantas available to the ACCC which seemed to calm things down.

There's been some mighty swapping of secrets - LOL

It's fine - I guess - that Mr. Sims demanded confidential information from Qantas, but without access to that information, no one can appraise his judgement of it - so why make it public? There's a reason he did it, of course, and that was as a comparative - the future of Qantas with or without Emirates.

But what has been missing from the debate is that Mr. Sims did NOT dismiss most of the Qantas claims out of hand.

He agrees with Qantas about the "end of line carrier" claims and agrees that Qantas likely has higher labour costs - he just disagrees (both with Qantas and Oxford Economics) on the extent. But he hedges his bets even on that.

Qantas made some claims about structural disadvantage because of government ownership (other airlines), but Mr. Sims is extremely ambivalent about that ("the effect is unclear") and so he did not place any weight on those claims. He doesn't say they don't exist.

And he fully accepts the Qantas position on Europe.

So the one area of genuine area of contention appears to the use of those two little words "terminal decline" - but they were used for specific (and mostly unreported) effect.

Look, I think he and the Commission have gone out of the way to be fair to everyone, perhaps to a fault. And if you haven't read the determination in full - it's a good, if dense, read but your life will go on without it, I promise.

I just get the feeling that a number of people who should have read the report haven't, or haven't fully understood it if they did. Or that in too many cases, agenda has ruled.

mariner

[Edited 2013-04-04 02:56:05]


aeternum nauta
Top Of Page
Forum Index

This topic is archived and can not be replied to any more.

Printer friendly format

Similar topics:More similar topics...
...And So It Begins (Oshkosh 2008) posted Thu Jul 24 2008 09:30:41 by 2H4
And So It Begins, JetBlue To Cancun On Nov. 30th posted Tue Nov 28 2006 18:07:53 by Juventus
WestJet And Kamloops - How's It Going So Far? posted Sun Mar 1 2009 11:03:19 by Threepoint
7) Peter Max... And So It Still Goes.... posted Sun Sep 19 2004 21:59:25 by Iahcsr
Finnair And FlyBE, Does It Make Sense? posted Wed Sep 26 2012 08:04:33 by Delta777Jet
Qantas And Emirates Website posted Thu Sep 6 2012 13:26:55 by emirates202
Qantas Marketing And PR posted Thu May 17 2012 04:32:56 by AirNiugini
United And LHR, Will It Ever Come Together? posted Sun Mar 25 2012 21:20:41 by VC10er
New ABQ Terminal And APM - Will It Ever Happen? posted Sun Jan 2 2011 15:36:30 by 1337Delta764
Funny (and Not So Funny) Aviation Facts 2009 Video posted Thu Apr 15 2010 14:01:48 by Gonzalo