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IAG To Order A351 And A359  
User currently offlineCarls From United States of America, joined Aug 2007, 522 posts, RR: 0
Posted (3 years 1 month 4 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 52391 times:

An order from IAG for the A350-1000 is almost done. The order will be for 25 units for British Airways.
Will share more information as soon as I get it.

This is how thw order should be:
A350-1000 for both British Airways and Iberia as a 744 and A346 replacement.
A350-900 as a 772ER and A343 replacement.
The deal is for both types and I have been told that the order will be for as much as 75 units total. No information yet as how many are firm and how many options.
Airbus was looking to close the deal at Le Bourget.

[Edited 2013-04-01 12:41:57]

255 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
User currently offlineKarelXWB From Netherlands, joined Jul 2012, 18356 posts, RR: 50
Reply 1, posted (3 years 1 month 4 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 52507 times:

Jon Ostrower ‏(from the WSJ) is confirming the news, this announcement sounds not like a joke.

[Edited 2013-04-01 12:18:44]

Close, but no cigar http://vine.co/v/OjqeYWWpVWK
User currently offlinetimboflier215 From United Kingdom, joined May 2005, 1347 posts, RR: 1
Reply 2, posted (3 years 1 month 4 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 52075 times:

Interesting. Can we assume this would be instead of, rather than in addition to, any 777X order? Would this mean the -900 is a shoe in to replace their 772s?

User currently offlineboeing773ER From United States of America, joined Dec 2011, 484 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (3 years 1 month 4 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 52075 times:

link to WSJ
It is just brief, and you have to log in to see more but atleast it is proof that it is actual.

[Edited 2013-04-01 12:33:57]

Work Hard, Fly Right.
User currently offlineKarelXWB From Netherlands, joined Jul 2012, 18356 posts, RR: 50
Reply 4, posted (3 years 1 month 4 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 52050 times:

Quoting timboflier215 (Reply 2):
Can we assume this would be instead of, rather than in addition to, any 777X order?

Jon Ostrower also tweets IAG wants both A350-1000 and 777-9X aircraft in their fleet.

Close, but no cigar http://vine.co/v/OjqeYWWpVWK
User currently offlinebthebest From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2008, 549 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (3 years 1 month 4 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 51653 times:

Quoting timboflier215 (Reply 2):
Can we assume this would be instead of, rather than in addition to, any 777X order?

Still another 20 odd 744 to replace at some point, and thats if all A35X went to BA.

User currently offlinetimboflier215 From United Kingdom, joined May 2005, 1347 posts, RR: 1
Reply 6, posted (3 years 1 month 4 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 51486 times:

Quoting bthebest (Reply 5):

True, but unlikely to be split, surely? They are already replacing 744 with a mix of A380 and (if this order materialises) A35J - why add 777X as well?

I actually forgot about the 787 - 10 (d'oh!), so I think the 772 replacement is a straight fight between this and the A350 - 900

User currently offlineKarelXWB From Netherlands, joined Jul 2012, 18356 posts, RR: 50
Reply 7, posted (3 years 1 month 4 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 51375 times:

The first post has been updated, the order would also replace the A346 aircraft.

Close, but no cigar http://vine.co/v/OjqeYWWpVWK
User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 23784 posts, RR: 60
Reply 8, posted (3 years 1 month 4 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 51248 times:

What I don't get is that BA just started taking 77W's. Any A350 order is going to overlap that.

So now their 744 fleet will be replaced by A35J, 77W, and A388. That's a bit discombobulated. Meanwhile, they also have the 787 on order. If they are ordering A359's, we can be pretty certain they won't be ordering 78J's.

User currently offlineblueshamu330s From UK - England, joined Sep 2001, 3435 posts, RR: 21
Reply 9, posted (3 years 1 month 4 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 50958 times:
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The 77Ws are, and were only ever, stop gaps.

Absolutely delighted this pending order has broken surface.      


So I drive a 4x4. So what?! Tax the a$$ off me for it...oh, you already have... :-(
User currently offlinetimboflier215 From United Kingdom, joined May 2005, 1347 posts, RR: 1
Reply 10, posted (3 years 1 month 4 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 50944 times:

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 8):

Don't forget that the 77Ws were originally brought on as part of the 787 compensation, so will be interesting to see whether BA keep them around for as long as they normally do.

Even if they don't run them till the end of their useful lives, they will be around for a while as replacing all 54-odd 744s is going to take a long time. Once the 77W goes, this could leave the 787 as the only Boeing aircraft in the BA fleet. Quite a turnaround from the current situation!

I am very happy that IAG have plumped for the A350 as their workhorse long haul aircraft, not least because it means many more Rolls-Royce sales!!

User currently offlineKarelXWB From Netherlands, joined Jul 2012, 18356 posts, RR: 50
Reply 11, posted (3 years 1 month 4 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 50954 times:

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 8):
What I don't get is that BA just started taking 77W's. Any A350 order is going to overlap that.

Yes, but:

- The A35J won't be available until 2017 and they need some large twins right now, so the 77W is the only outcome to fill the temporary gap
- IAG has to replace 17x A346, 15x A343, 52x 747 and 46x 772 (!) and they only have 12x A380, 8x A330 and 6x 77W on order.

[Edited 2013-04-01 13:32:23]

Close, but no cigar http://vine.co/v/OjqeYWWpVWK
User currently offlineshuttle9juliet From UK - Scotland, joined Jul 2010, 315 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (3 years 1 month 4 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 50874 times:
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Why does it have to be so confusing?

User currently offlineCarls From United States of America, joined Aug 2007, 522 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (3 years 1 month 4 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 50787 times:

Please acept my apologies, I got the information and I was fast trying to share it with the forum.
The last thing I got was that IAG closed a deal with Airbus for the A350. some 1000 and some 900, the order will cover replacement and grow for both airlines BA and IB. No numbers were discussed and I do not know how many are firms and how many are options. I am clarifiying this because when I made the first post I mentioned about 25 firms and 25 options and this information is not accurate.
This is my guess:
A351 to replace the 747 BA has and A346 from IB
A359 to replace the 772ER BA has and A343 from IB

User currently offlinetimboflier215 From United Kingdom, joined May 2005, 1347 posts, RR: 1
Reply 14, posted (3 years 1 month 4 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 50525 times:

Quoting Carls (Reply 13):
A351 to replace the 747 BA has and A346 from IB
A359 to replace the 772ER BA has and A343 from IB

Which is approx 130 frames, if they do as you are suggesting and replace all with A350s in one fell swoop. This could be an absolutely MASSIVE order for Airbus, and a bit of a kick for Boeing's yet to be defined offerings (777X and 787 - 10), as BA at least were surely an airline Boeing had in mind for this planes?

Having said this, it would actually not surprise me to see BA going for the 787 - 10 as well for their East Coast USA flights....

[Edited 2013-04-01 13:52:02]

User currently offlineAcheron From Spain, joined Sep 2005, 2142 posts, RR: 2
Reply 15, posted (3 years 1 month 4 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 49824 times:

Quoting timboflier215 (Reply 14):
hich is approx 130 frames, if they do as you are suggesting and replace all with A350s in one fell swoop. This could be an absolutely MASSIVE order for Airbus

It would be also a boost for the A351, which until fairly recently, some members were claiming to be DOA.

User currently offlinebthebest From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2008, 549 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (3 years 1 month 4 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 49707 times:

Quoting Acheron (Reply 15):
It would be also a boost for the A351, which until fairly recently, some members were claiming to be DOA.

I think that was the A358, A35X is quite strong as far as I was aware

User currently offlinetimboflier215 From United Kingdom, joined May 2005, 1347 posts, RR: 1
Reply 17, posted (3 years 1 month 4 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 49607 times:

Quoting bthebest (Reply 16):
I think that was the A358, A35X is quite strong as far as I was aware

Up until fairly recently, it was in fact the A351 getting most of the stick on here, ironically. Then a flurry of orders came in, and lots of operators switched from the -800 to the -900, and now it's the smallest model which looks imperilled.

User currently offlinewilliam From United States of America, joined Jun 1999, 1681 posts, RR: 1
Reply 18, posted (3 years 1 month 4 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 49587 times:

British Airways will go from one of Boeing's strongest customer to mostly Airbus in about a decade.......Amazing. Its all about the product.

User currently offlinesankaps From United States of America, joined Jan 2008, 2255 posts, RR: 2
Reply 19, posted (3 years 1 month 4 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 49508 times:

Quoting william (Reply 18):
British Airways will go from one of Boeing's strongest customer to mostly Airbus in about a decade.......Amazing. Its all about the product.

And it appears JAL is favoring the A350 too. So two customers Boeing can no longer take for granted. Surely the 787 debacle (especially how Boeing management has handled the entire program) has had some role to play in these decisions.

[Edited 2013-04-01 14:57:38]

User currently offlinebaldwin471 From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2012, 363 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (3 years 1 month 4 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 49152 times:

Quoting william (Reply 18):
British Airways will go from one of Boeing's strongest customer to mostly Airbus in about a decade.......Amazing. Its all about the product.

Crazy how fast things change in Aviation huh?

User currently offlineikramerica From United States of America, joined May 2005, 22175 posts, RR: 59
Reply 21, posted (3 years 1 month 4 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 49123 times:

I see this announcement that both airlines will get both types as a way of not tipping their hat to competitors. I wouldn't guess that BA would actually take the A351/9 + 77X, nor would IAG. I can see the entire IB fleet being replaced with A350s, and about 1/2 of the BA 772s replaced with A359, leaving the remaining 772s, 77Ws and any 744s left to be replaced by the 77X. Even then, it's kind of confusing with the 789 in the fleet.

Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
User currently offlinejfk777 From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 9781 posts, RR: 6
Reply 22, posted (3 years 1 month 4 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 49080 times:
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John Leahy can't be paid enough if this happens, even by Goldman Sachs standards. IF Boeing lets this happen they better turn off the lights in Seattle because the BA 777-9X order was Boeing's to loose. If Airbus gets JAL and BA plus Cathay they might as well cancel the 777 program. Then may be Air France will order the 777-9X since it has GE engines. How ironic that the French Airline would order the non-European plane but BA would get the Toulouse plane.

[Edited 2013-04-01 15:56:03]

User currently offlineBongodog1964 From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2006, 4307 posts, RR: 4
Reply 23, posted (3 years 1 month 4 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 48490 times:

Most of the 77w's in the BA fleet are leased as a stopgap, if this rumour is true it appears that the 77W won't have a long life at BA. Caution however, I remember sources being adamant that BA had chosen the 748 over the 380.

User currently offlinemham001 From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 4520 posts, RR: 3
Reply 24, posted (3 years 1 month 4 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 48218 times:

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 8):
they won't be ordering 78J's.

What is a 78J?

25 Post contains images msp747 : Yeah, turn out the lights, Boeing obviously can't sell any airplanes. Why do they even try to compete It's a huge win for Airbus, but does anybody re
26 AeroWesty : There's a full article up on the WSJ site now (search "IAG A350" to bring it up in Google results). It opens with remarks that the order for A350s cou
27 Stitch : It appears the details are still in discussion, so this may not be a "winner take all" RFP like the VLA one was. As such, IAG could fly the 787-8, 787
28 jfk777 : What A330 or A340 does BA have to be replaced ? NONE, BA only has 744 AND 777 to be replaced.
29 SonomaFlyer : IAG does the purchasing for IB and BA. This order is supposed to be for BA and is 25 frames (we'll assume 25 firm and a similar number of options). I
30 BestWestern : Or maybe this is all pure negotiation tactics.
31 Carls : One more thing, a great news is coming from Lufthansa to Airbus! I am expecting a great year for Airbus at Le Bourget!!! IAG comprises Iberia and Brit
32 Stitch : As IB flies nothing but Airbus, it makes sense to purchase A350-900s and A350-1000s for them as an A330-300, A340-300 and A340-600 replacement. And t
33 troest : How will the A359s perform in hot & hight altitude airports compared to the A340s?
34 RickNRoll : I find that hard to believe. Both manufacturers offer competitive products and neither can grow to the size that requires the other to 'turn off the
35 UALWN : Not so fast with the A333 replacement at IB: the first one joined the fleet two weeks ago!
36 Post contains images PlanesNTrains : Isn't every year a great year for Airbus? -Dave
37 Post contains images Stitch : Better than the 787-9, I expect, thanks to the greater wing area and higher thrust. Indeed.
38 Asiaflyer : There is no need to have an direct 744 replacement in terms of size as the 744 isn't the perfect fit for all routes it flies today. Your example rega
39 Post contains images astuteman : I can see this happening quite a bit in future. It doesn't always have to be "either-or" You better believe the A350-1000 was DOA'd on A-net a very l
40 AeroWesty : That's not what the news article says. It says it's an either/or: That's what I took issue with. It says that if IAG orders the A350, it won't receiv
41 Post contains images Stitch : Maybe it's an April Fool's joke. But in all seriousness, I don't expect Randy Tinseth to demand IAG pay close to list if IAG is willing to order a co
42 LH707330 : Although plausible, this could just be a bunch of malarkey like the "Austrian buying 787" thread. Jon likes to pull April Fools jokes, so I'll take th
43 Acheron : Isn't that kind of attitude what caused F9 to switch to Airbus?.
44 Post contains images columba : Which would be nearly every model available except for the A350-800 and 777-8X But honestly if you are right with this I could see the order for the
45 ferpe : If this happens I see this as a result of Boeing being to conservative under McNerney. Albaugh and team clearly saw the compelling economics of the A3
46 Aviaponcho : From what we know at this point the 777-9X will be - using the same fuselage diameter as 777, but different materials - stretch beyond the quasi doubl
47 abba : One thing seems pretty obvious: The Y project according to which Boeing over a short period of time should have a new product lineup seems now a rath
48 frigatebird : This is a huge win for Airbus and an even bigger loss for Boeing. This order could be pivotal in the battle between 777X and A350, just like BA's orde
49 Post contains images scbriml : Which were originally intended as interim lift. Don't forget that four of the original six (I think) were leased frames. Mainly by those Boeing fanbo
50 bthebest : It refers to 787-10, J being the 10th letter of the alphabet. Everyone notates them differently, so until ICAO gives it a designation, pick your favo
51 AirbusA6 : There is still a possibility of ordering the 777-9 as well, as it's a decent amount bigger than the A351. It would make BA's long haul fleet more comp
52 KarelXWB : The boost of the -1000 orders can be explained by a few things: 1) Last February Leahy was hinting at a deticated assembly line for the A350-1000 2) D
53 BoeingVista : This is the time for IAG to drive a deal, Airbus would like the ink to be dry before Boeing launch the 777X and to deny them a prestigious launch cus
54 scbriml : IMHO that's nonsense. The 777X will be a very good product and I'll be amazed if EK don't order at least 50.
55 Aviaponcho : By the way, What can be the 787-10 EIS ? > 2020 ? T1000-TEN is for 2016, so 787-10X can't be here (with RR) before 2017 I think
56 Post contains images KarelXWB :
57 Post contains images EPA001 : Oh yes. The plane was already buried before she left the designing and development department. Now the tide is turning, mainly because the product be
58 frigatebird : It needs more than an order from EK to be a success, or it will be the next A340-500/600, or worse, the 747-8i.
59 Bongodog1964 : When did we last see an "all new engine" ? For decades now widebody engines have been a succession of improvements to a basic design. Yes their thrus
60 Post contains images blueshamu330s : Whilst the report refers specifically to British Airways, I believe, with the reorganisation of Iberia now underway, negotiations include a complete
61 worldrider : "Dear B team, As 744-A346-777-343 replacement next toys we went to the Airbus shop for a delightful visit, and a glass of unique local wine.. we thank
62 Post contains images Heavierthanair : G´day So will this order be formally announced in XFW during the roll-out of the first A 380 painted in full BA colours? I am sure all the BA and Air
63 Carls : I think we can hear something at the Paris Air Show.
64 Extra300 : You´re all talking like this is a done deal. Is this the case or is this order only a rumor?
65 Post contains images anfromme : The rumour is that it's a done deal. Slightly off-topic, but - even ignoring that just replacing 747-400 does not account for growth - this isn't qui
66 Post contains images Bongodog1964 : You just have to remember to consult your aerospace dictionary, if you haven't got one to hand please find a few definitions below: Rumour - Believed
67 Post contains images kmz : ...and my impression is that the Airbus supporters here sound a little bit too convinced that only Airbus can offer the right product, the tone is co
68 VV701 : It was in August 1986 that BA first ordered the 744,buying 16 of the type with options on a further 12. To me this raises two questions: 1. What alter
69 JerseyFlyer : I am a little distrubed that this "news" surfaced on April 1st, but if true I wonder what it means for the 787 orders in BA's fleet. I can see 4 class
70 Post contains images scbriml : If it's a joke, a lot of folks are in on it!
71 Post contains images chiad : I am! But it's nothing to make a joke of really. I mean ... why wouldn't IAG make such an orders? I would be like making an April joke of zero celsiu
72 Post contains images StickShaker : This is the saving grace for Boeing and one of the reasons why the 777-9X is a 400 seater. Boeing are exploiting the inherent advantages of having a
73 Post contains images AirbusA6 : If IAG are making such a large order for Airbus widebodies, I'm sure a few British politicians will try to muscle in on the announcement
74 Stitch : Well BA is going to operate the 787-8 and 787-9, so adding the 787-10 does not sound like a stretch. The 787-10 also is a strong fit for the "medium
75 qf002 : And most importantly of all: Denial = Confirmation
76 anfromme : I'd agree that the fact that the 777-9X is larger than the A350-1000 is Boeing's saving grace (and probably their only way of competing with the econ
77 blueshamu330s : ...based on 10 across in Y. BA have tried 10 across in the B777 and their market rejected it out of hand. I remain unconvinced Boeing are going to be
78 PW100 : I think that is ridiculous, utterly nonsense, and totally uncalled for . . . . surely the French and German politicians will be part of the party, if
79 Post contains images AirbusA6 : The British government is desperate to realign the economy towards manufacturing, and as one of the more successful sectors, aerospace has had plenty
80 davs5032 : Let's not get ahead of ourselves here...at this point EK ordering the 77X (in significant quantities) seems extremely likely. But then you'd have a h
81 lebb757 : British: They should get the whole 787 family. 787-8s -9s and -10s would do a pretty decent job replacing 772s and 763s. The 7810s performance isn't t
82 BestWestern : I agree that the 787 is perfect for Iberia, allowing them to play the frequency or yield game on South American routes, and develop new markets in Nor
83 Post contains images astuteman : The A350 should be physically capable of being stretched to pretty much the same length as the 777 ... I think a bigger issue is that it would end up
84 BoeingVista : Really.. You can triple stretch a 777 but you can't double stretch an A350? Your A346 reference is bogus, the basic problem with the A346 was that it
85 Stitch : The narrower diameter of the A340's fuselage required significant strengthening, which raised the OEW by a significant amount. Reference OEW for the A
86 PlanesNTrains : Hmmm...When did the A330/A340 come out? The A320? So going A340-200 to A340-300 to A340-500 and A340-600, or A330-200 to A330-300 to A330-300HGW, or
87 BlueSky1976 : 777 was stretched only once. 777-300 and -300ER share the same exact fuselage, as far as I know. The -9X would be second stretch.
88 Post contains images scbriml : BA had no issue with the "huge gap in capacity" between the 772 and 744 for many years. Why not? Boeing is perfectly able to double-stretch the narro
89 Post contains images columba : Lets see I still have high hopes for LH ordering the 787-10X A350-900 should do the job just as good as the 787. With that many 772 they had, they ha
90 astuteman : Don't forget that, like the 787, the A350XWB is an ovoid cross-section. So the actual fuselage height difference between the A350 and the 777 will be
91 ferpe : I can't see why an A350 couldn't bee double strecthed just like the 787, I put in another 8 frames to stretch with 5.1 meter to 77.3m and left everyt
92 BoeingVista : True but again misleading. Wing area increased on the A340-600 by 20% from 363-427 m2 over the A340-300 while wing area stayed the same on the 777-30
93 Post contains images frigatebird : I'm not an Airbus fanboy Boeing has lots of very capable and extremely hard working people working there. However, IMO Boeing also has some people in
94 Post contains images ncfc99 : Even though it is MTOW limited, it would make an awsome people carrier for trans atlantic routes. Just as the 78J is going to be. Whilst I can see th
95 Post contains links StickShaker : Appreciate your effort here ferpe. Just one minor nitpick - Airbus show the length of the 35J to be 74.3 meters here and other sites give 73.9 meters
96 Post contains links and images blueshamu330s : I'm talking about the here and now, the present, the day IAG sat down and compared the two OEMs' product line up. You are being disingenuous in tryin
97 PlanesNTrains : I don't mean to say that YOU are a fanboy. I am just asking how this comment is any different than the A351 DOA comments mentioned in this very threa
98 Post contains images Leo467 : I fully agree! And this after some arguably not too differing stories that helped Airbus to become such a strong competitor: The proposed "game changi
99 ferpe : That is overall length and the longest points are the nose and tips of HTP. The relevant parameter for cabin length and tail ground clearance is fuse
100 Post contains images PlanesNTrains : Please don't accuse me of being disingenuous - there's really no need for that. I was simply replying to this: You said it was history repeating itse
101 KarelXWB : 10 abreast is an advantage for the 777-9X, but what about the -8(L)X ? The A35J carries 350 pax in a 9 abreast cabin while the -8X carries 353 pax in
102 ferpe : I see the 777-8X as a complement to the -9X, not as a competitive stand alone model re the A350-1000. There are to many compromises for this model, a
103 PC9 : Quote from ferpe: ..........................................35J.........35K.......77W.......779 Cabin length m:................58.8........63.9.......
104 Bongodog1964 : Its only an advantage if the passengers find it acceptable. As mentioned earlier BA tried 10 abreast on the 772 on its Carribbean leisure routes and
105 frigatebird : No, Boeing's first reaction to the NEO was that they didn't need to re-engine, because the 737NG would be just as efficient as the NEO. Jaw-dropping.
106 blueshamu330s : It has been recognised that the company's main demographic base, i.e. Western European and North American, is increasing in both mass and size. The d
107 Bongodog1964 : Is it a case of their passengers find it acceptable, or that their customers have few other viable options, or that the pricing is so advantageous to
108 APYu : This was quite a long time ago now, and as others have stated this is more common on other carriers. Just because it didnt work back then doesnt mean
109 Glareskin : Everybody, please don't overreact. 1 I haven't seen a p.o. yet. Everything said is speculating. 2 Even if IAG and JAL are going to order it is not the
110 Stitch : The 7J7 worked when fuel is expensive. If Boeing launched it now, it would probably find fans, but back when they did start development work, fuel wa
111 Post contains images anfromme : Probably mounted at the rear of its fuselage. Sorry, couldn't resist. Besides the business case vanishing with the price of fuel dropping, I thought
112 StickShaker : McDonnell Douglas cancelled the MD-94X (which was very similar in concept to the Boeing 7J7) around the same time that Boeing cancelled the 7J7 - for
113 Stitch : That was indeed the case in the early stages of development, though GE was able to develop the GE36 to the point it could meet Stage III noise requir
114 sierra3tango : Having travelled a few times on 77W (in Y) operated by some of the airlines you quote, I and friends, family & colleagues avoid them like the pla
115 PITingres : Well, just to illustrate that it's not unanimous, my wife and I flew NZ's 10-across 77W a month ago, and it was fine. If I had any complaints it was
116 sierra3tango : Each to there own Do understand your point about 747s, had a nighthmare flight on a DC10 decades ago which was 5 across in the centre section & g
117 qf002 : BA might have elected to stick with 9 abreast, but they've skimped on just about everything else to do with the new product. The armrests only go up
118 PW100 : I think you will find that they send 7x daily 744 and 1x 772 to JFK . . . can't get much more seats out of available slots. I think you are overanaly
119 Post contains images abba : And probberbly the best reason: They don't have to untill Boeing is firm and locked on their eventual 779x offering. But two days later
120 SKAirbus : I flew on the BA 77W from HKG-LHR in Y and had a very different experience: - First of all the headrests are not headrests, they are neckrests and in
121 sierra3tango : Haven't we got so far off topic (not totally blameless myself) that the thread title should be changed?
122 PlanesNTrains : Please understand in my replies that I'm not trying to be argumentative. I simply see it different: Again - not to belabor the point - Boeing didn't h
123 PlanesNTrains : True, and as a derivative of the A350, it would be a much easier product to engineer and launch than what the 777X is trying to do right now. It will
124 VV701 : The three high density 772s operated in BA livery had their origins back in April 1995 when BA sold Caledonian Airways to package tour operator Inspi
125 jfk777 : IAG just excercised optios of 18 787 for its BA unit. What is it the A350-90 does a 787-9 can't ?
126 flashmeister : It is indeed a shame, but it was entirely predictable: some have said that McDonnell Douglas bought Boeing with Boeing's money, and much of the McD e
127 Post contains images scbriml : It's significant that IAG has converted these options now and not waited for -10s. I think that nails on the A350-900s & -1000s at BA. Well, it m
128 Post contains images KarelXWB : Looks like it's shopping week at IAG's office. Let the fuel efficient 787 and A350 aircraft come in Carry more pax over the same range. Likely yes.
129 astuteman : The same thing a 787-9 can do that a 787-8 can't? Rgds
130 Post contains links AeroWesty : What is this? British Airways parent IAG, Boeing reach deal on 18 Dreamliners (My bolding.)
131 Post contains images ferpe : It was a post well formulated and with good viewpoints, appreciate it. My meaning re Boeing's handling of the situation has less to do with their pre
132 Stitch : I am quite confident that BA has the option to option the 787-10 with those options. (Say that one three times fast!)
133 RickNRoll : Wouldn't it make for sense for them to stay 787-8? Airbus have nothing to match it.
134 Stitch : I suppose it depends on how BA wants to handle their 767-300ER replacements. They have 8 787-8 on order and those seat 25 more (11 CW | 1 WT+ | 13 WT
135 Post contains links ferpe : Here is a link to a more sensible description of the conversion of options: http://www.businessweek.com/news/201...787-order-with-iberia-set-for-more
136 PlanesNTrains : Plenty of flexibilty, and totally compatible with a 359-3510 order. -Dave
137 BlueLight : I refuse to fly any carrier in Y class that puts 10 abreast. I fly 15 to 18 times per annum from SIN to DPS, and I pay the extra $120 to $170 R/T it c
138 columba : A 787-10 and A350-1000 combination seems to be a good choice for BA and IB
139 ferpe : Tweets from Jon Ostrower: "British Airways has 2 yrs to select a model for the 18 787s, could point to 787-10X launch. IAG says these 787 will replace
140 BlueSky1976 : If true, the future BA long haul fleet could look like this: A380-800 777-9X A350-1000 787-10 787-9 787-8 777-9X fits quite nicely between A350-1000 a
141 Post contains links and images frigatebird : Hmm, to be honest, these additional 787s make it even less likely BA will ever order the 777X IMO. But who knows, stranger things have happened There
142 KarelXWB : Thanks for the additional information. I retake my words, this seems like a strong hint towards the 787-10X. This is also interesting: "Source says a
143 KarelXWB : But still, those 18x 787 and 25x A350 are still not enough to replace the whole 744 and 772 fleet, even if you add the current A380's on order.
144 SKAirbus : People have failed to mentioned that BA is likely to top up its A380 order in the future to cover the higher capacity routes. It's a no-brainer reall
145 JerseyFlyer : 787-10 is ideal for US east coast where BA requires frequency over capacity. 350s can be used on longer routes where capacity and range and maybe frei
146 frigatebird : Are we sure the initial order for A350 will only be 25? I've missed that somewhere in this thread, thought the number would be higher. Furthermore, t
147 Leo467 : What I really like is their "2 years to select the type". If they manage to negotiate a similar paragraph for part of their A350 order (/options). Thi
148 fcogafa : They said last week that they were not interested in further A380s
149 Daysleeper : I posted over a year ago stating that BA would order the A35J to replace the vast majority of the 747 fleet only to be flamed to death by the Boeing b
150 Post contains images frigatebird : They also said they were very interested in the 777X IIRC, BA said they were not likely to order further A380s, but it wasn't ruled out (and BA still
151 waly777 : But this goes against BA's statement saying they were not interested in any more A380's and were primarily looking at long haul twins for future repl
152 fcogafa : :So flame away…. But there is no denying what a CASM beast the A389 would be with the TrentXWB's.... and BA is certainly only of the few airlines wh
153 Post contains images anfromme : Well, that they may still be, as A350-1000 and 779X wouldn't be mutually exclusive. They didn't rule it out, they just didn't see any additional orde
154 frigatebird : Wasn't my quote...
155 blueshamu330s : British Airways have 7 options which they will certainly exercise, in addition to the 12 on order. You contradict yourself with your own statement. O
156 B777LRF : It is a fallacy to believe these two orders (787 and A350) represents to sum total of replacements for the present BA long-haul fleet, or that it shut
157 BestWestern : They were not interested at the moment.
158 PM : I'm pretty certain that GE's deal with PW on the GP7000 would preclude that.
159 jfk777 : WHY ? Pratt doesn't have an engine to put on an A350 ?
160 RayChuang : The A350XWB-900 order book is going to be huge, since not only are they replacing A340's, but also earlier-build 777-200ER's. Don't be surprised that
161 PM : No, but my point was that PW won't let GE replace the EA GP7000 on the A380.
162 Post contains images frigatebird : That could indeed be a major showstopper But doesn't RR have a similar situation with their Trent-900 suppliers which aren't partner on the T-XWB? We
163 airbazar : It's already pretty much like that. I'm not sure why anyone thinks the 777X won't be another 748I.
164 Hamlet69 : I personally have no idea why anyone WOULD think it's going to be like the 747-8i. . . Hamlet69
165 Burkhard : The question is if it makes sense to fight against an all new design with a warmed up old one, but I personally also expect the 777X to be a success,
166 Post contains images anfromme : Exactly. Remember the scorn heaped over the A350 Mk I, which in scope was quite similar to what the 777X is going to be. Having said that, it looks l
167 PlanesNTrains : and: Why the drama? So you don't see any possible reason that a 747 route today would be better served by a much-more-cost-effective 787-10X which co
168 airbazar : You took the words out of my mouth. You just about described the 748I, and that is why I think the 777X will suffer the same fate. But it's just my o
169 jfk777 : With the Continental Management ? They love 777 and 787 why would Gordon Bethune's boys order more A350-900 then they inherited ? That would be Seatt
170 PlanesNTrains : I respect your opinion. I'm just wondering, aside from both being revisions to a model, if you have a deeper analysis than that. To me, the two (748i
171 SonomaFlyer : Apples and oranges. The new wide body a/c market is driven by CASM, range and capability to move people and cargo. The 748i is beautiful but burns to
172 Post contains images anfromme : It maybe wasn't clear from how I wrote what I wrote, but I actually agree with that. For fear of stating the obvious: Because it's going to be a fine
173 Stitch : I think what really hurt the original A350 was it was a hard 8-abreast, whereas the 787 could do 9-abreast. The A350 is (effectively for non-LCCs) a
174 waly777 : This is a contradiction how? Talk about knitpicking and I'm fully literate with regards to the English language, no need to define any words for me.
175 SKAirbus : Anyone know if BA/IAG have made a decision yet about the A350?
176 anfromme : Although a big deal was made out of that at the time (as evident by the XWB moniker the A350 Mk II still carries), I'm not sure if that wasn't blown
177 StickShaker : The 350Mk1 was hit by the perfect storm. 1. It could only do 8 abreast - not 9. 2. It was losing some large sales campaigns to the 787. 3. The 346 wa
178 Post contains images anfromme : I would maybe add to your 4th point that Boeing's campaign was so effective that many customer executives echoed their sales pitch and thus put press
179 AirbusA6 : 5 years ago, anything not completely composite (like the A380) was considered (here for example) as old fashioned and yesterday's technology, as Boei
180 Post contains images airbazar : You're both agreeing with me. The large twin market segment is a lot bigger than the VLA market so "several hundred" orders for a 777X is equivalent
181 Carls : The last thing I got was that they were finalizing it. However I have the impression that Airbus wants to make the announcemnt at Le Bourget along wi
182 JerseyFlyer : And from Airbus strategic interest perspective it could not realistically be scaled up to replace the A346 Another 25 for United?
183 Post contains links and images frigatebird : It seems they do that every Le Bourget year. From April it gets very quiet with Airbus orders and then in June, at the airshow, bang, nearly every da
184 Post contains images CXB77L : I don't believe that IAG has made a statement to that effect, so no, nothing can be assumed. They're different aircraft for different missions. The 7
185 jfk777 : JAL, Cathay and BA(IAG) probably represent 100 777-9X orders, so if the 3 order A350-1000 that means many 777-9x will NOT be ordered. Its not the end
186 CXB77L : I disagree with the premise that an order for the A350-1000 means that the 777-9X will not be ordered, for reasons I have already stated. The two air
187 SonomaFlyer : A 50+/- seat difference between the 351 and 779-X I think puts them in different categories. The bigger airlines certainly can order both 350 and 777
188 columba : Well,let´s see how this turns out. LH is officially still negotiating with both Airbus and Boeing, we don´t know how far the negotiations are at th
189 Stitch : I believe the 777-9X is going to be too large for JL and NH. They're steering away from high-capcity long-haul planes. They'll be looking at the 777-
190 Viscount724 : 78J sounds more like an IATA code which has 3 characters. ICAO aircraft codes have have 4 characters.
191 StickShaker : While the 777X program is not a clean sheet design it could safely be described as a new 777 platform. It is anything but a last gasp (such as the 74
192 bongodog1964 : The quickest way to bankruptcy is to assume that you know better than your clients. Yes airlines do make aircraft acquistion decisions not the passen
193 bthebest : True, IATA is effectively shorthand for the ICAO codes, just add A or B. Not sure who ultimately decides, I would say ICAO as they're more of a regul
194 CXB77L : I'm not sure. When the 777-300 was launched, I recall Boeing saying that the -300 was as far a stretch as the 777 could take, yet here we are, a deca
195 Post contains links and images blueshamu330s : Because you wrote this: ...which is clearly false and misleading. Clearly you are not, else you would not have added a subjective slant to what Mr Wa
196 Stitch : I'm not an expert on BA operations, to be sure, but from my perch, I admit to not seeing where BA needs the A350-900 as a 777-200ER replacement when t
197 columba : Me neither. I can see an IAG order for the A350-900 only for IB. BA will remain all Boeing except for the A380 and maybe the A350-1000
198 Post contains images BlueLight :
199 Post contains images ikramerica : That chart is inaccurate. 747 seats are 17.5 max. 707 fuselage sets are 17.2. A380 can go 19 as can 777 in 9 abreast. As can 787 in 8 abreast. Should
200 KarelXWB : Funny slide but it is missing a few things: 1) the A380 will do 11 abreast in the future, last month Leahy said customers are looking at it 2) the A35
201 BlueLight : Only LCCs will likely consider a 10 abreast A350. I haven't heard a mainline carrier yet planning on going with a 10 abreast. Are you aware of any sp
202 Post contains images SonomaFlyer : Wait till UA announce their seat plan.
203 BlueLight : I'm assuming Airbus used the average fleet width 747 as United and EVA are 17" whereas DL and KE are listed at 17.2" on seatguru.com. Regardless if m
204 Post contains links KarelXWB : So far no customers have announced to use a 10 abreast cabin in the A350. But it is officialy on offer so Airbus should put it into that slide. The s
205 KPDX : I'm a bit uniformed on this.. But what makes people think the majority of airlines won't put 10 abreast in the A350, as well? They can say one thing,
206 BlueLight : Pretty simple really. It's just like how no mainline carriers are cramming 9 abreast into an A330/A340 now. It's why Singapore Airlines decided to us
207 U2380 : It's a fairly tight squeeze on the 777 as it now, the A350 is that little bit narrower still. Although no doubt a carrier(s) will attempt it at some
208 KarelXWB : You're given up comfort. 10 abreast in the A350 means going from 17" seats in the 777 to 16.4" seats. Airlines like AirAsiaX may eventually install a
209 moo : Airbus shouldn't have to do anything, it's their PR and Marketing presentation so they can include and exclude whatever they like. Just as you could
210 bongodog1964 : Its true to say that passengers aren't directly involved in purchase decisions, howeve rits totally untrue to say that their requirements aren't take
211 Post contains images blueshamu330s : You make perfect sense, Stitch, though I wonder if performance characteristics for, let's say for example, some Caribbean destinations, and planning f
212 KarelXWB : Agreed, Airbus should have done nothing. I meant to say that such a PR slide is a bit pointless in a discussion where objectivity should have the upp
213 Stitch : The 787-10 really shouldn't be any worse at field performance than the 787-9 since it has the same take-off weight and wing. If anything, it might be
214 KarelXWB : Maybe I missed it but how would an A35J look like as a four-class 777-200ER BA replacement?
215 Post contains links KarelXWB : I did some research and there are A330 operators (Air Transat, AirAsiaX) with a 9-abreast Y config (= 16.5" seats). Given this fact it should only be
216 Post contains links egnr : "AirAsia X should receive its first A350, which will have a two-class configuration with 10 seats abreast in economy, in 2015 if there are no delays
217 Post contains images olle : How compares a 10 abreast A350 compared a 10 abreast B777? I fly the Airfrance 777 with 10 abreast to South america and I prefeer the Swiss 8 abreast
218 Post contains images CXB77L : Airbus' chart is both inaccurate and biased to the extreme: Not only that, but they had specifically chosen the higher density 9 abreast configuratio
219 KarelXWB : Thanks, I've totally missed this. Well, that makes 10 abreast on the A350 already a fact. Nobody knows because the A350 is not flying yet but one can
220 UALWN : Maybe 8 abreast in a 787 is "more conventional" than 9 breast, but it is less common. Ditto for most new operators of the 777. So 9 abreast in a 787
221 PlanesNTrains : While I don't really care about the slide one way or the other, implying that the 787 at 8 or the 777 at 9 are the standard configurations would seem
222 AirbusA6 : The slide's not completely misleading Nearly every operator of the 787 is going 9Y, even the likes of BA. 777 operators are increasingly going 10Y, in
223 Bogi : And only 1 LCC carrier has so far ordered the A350?
224 JerseyFlyer : Which runs A330s at 9 abreast now
225 AirbusA6 : Well a small number of charter airlines operate the 767 at 8Y, but that hardly makes it normal!
226 YTZ : I was skeptical about BA going with the A350 since they already bought the 787. But the more I look at it, if BA is willing to ditch their 747s and do
227 PW100 : Off course such a comparison to a 9 abreast 777 or 8 abreast 787 is pretty moot, as a 9 abreast 777 and 8 abreast 787 will be easily outperformed by
228 Hamlet69 : Yes and no. It's certainly not skewed in the sense that it's FACTUALLY correct. However, when presented singularly like it is, it implies to the gene
229 YTZ : It's not a direct replacement. It's a replacement with growth. Seat count would be ~280. And the seat count would be about the same in 3-class with a
230 PW100 : Well, to be fair, you would certainly not expect Airbus to show all thinkable configurations in one single slide. Also, I (and I suspect that also ap
231 scbriml : It''s called presenting your product in the best possible light (or "a sales pitch"). Everyone does it, there's really no news here.
232 KarelXWB : Leahy hints about selling 80 A350 aircraft this year. This gives the IAG order even more backbone.
233 india1 : We have 35 frames already ordered + 25 for AF/KLM to be confirmed by end of year = 60. We're speculating IAG, LH, and JAL. And knowing Leahy, there's
234 Post contains images MWHCVT : He's very good at under estimating you can rest assured that if he has estimated sales of that he's already got more than that ready to sign the mans
235 fcogafa : Some sources have quoted 20 for BA so that would fit
236 frigatebird : I don't think he's counting the 25 for AF/KL for 2013 yet, it could drag on a while. I do think he's counting IAG and LH though (IMO opinion these ar
237 JerseyFlyer : And all with 9 abreast "tourist" Y
238 jfk777 : IF Lufthansa ordered 787 and 777X's that would realy be something. John Leahy is getting too fat for his own good.
239 Post contains images RIX : I remember there were seat maps of BA 787, soon after the first order, 788 - 3 class, 789 - 4 class, both with 8 abreast in economy. Nothing about LG
240 Post contains images CXB77L : Yes, but that's not the point I was making. What I was trying to get at is that these configurations - 8 abreast 787 and 9 abreast 777 - exist, and i
241 KarelXWB : News is coming in: British Airways parent IAG ordering 18 A350-1000s plus 18 options.
242 Post contains links KarelXWB : And the official press release: http://www.iagshares.com/phoenix.zht...rticle_Print&ID=1809195&highlight= "For British Airways, there are 18 A
243 BoeingVista : What has been secured for Iberia remains a bit of a mystery.
244 Post contains images ferpe : Airbus twitter: Great news! International Airline Group (IAG), & @British_Airways have signed a Memorandum of Understanding to buy 18 Airbus #A350
245 Stitch : So that's 12 A380-800, 18 A350-1000s and 6 777-300ERs on order to replace 36 of BA's 55 747-400s. That still leaves 19 frames. So I am guessing the 18
246 KarelXWB : The press release clearly says "the A350 and Boeing 787 firm orders will be used to replace 30 Boeing 747-400 aircraft between 2017 and 2023". To me,
247 YTZ : @Stitch Fail to see why the 787-10 is appropriate. If not the 777-X, then surely it'll be more A350-1000s.
248 sonomaflyer : Based on what we've heard the specs are for the -10, it will carry up to 323 people for a distance of up to 7,100 miles. It's lighter than the 350-10
249 YTZ : 323 is still less than 350. We are talking about replacing 747s after all. There is a limit to how low they can go....particularly given the slot con
250 Stitch : I believe the 787-10 would make an effective replacement for the High-J (70 seat Club World) 747-400s on high-yield markets. It can fit good-sized Fi
251 motorhussy : Well not usually, the aim of marketing is to highlight the advantage of your own product or service. What's the advantage of this vs. the A359? Not a
252 Stitch : The 787-10 seats more and offers more cargo hold volume than the A350-900. I'd be shocked if IB gets (only) the 787-9 as opposed to the A350-900 when
253 PM : So this order will take A350-1000 sales to 128. Looks like it's starting to get the 'traction' that some here said it never would.
254 Post contains images astuteman : That was always a ridiculous position though, wasn't it? Mind you, those same posters seem to have mustered enough intelligence to disappear from the
255 Post contains images EPA001 : As expected by the posters with a more realistic approach to this topic, the A350-1000 is gaining momentum quite convincingly. Well, we have seen tha
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