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NW Service On The ORD-NRT Route  
User currently offlineIAHWorldflyer From United States of America, joined Feb 2012, 172 posts, RR: 0
Posted (1 year 3 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 7831 times:

In the 1970's and '80's NW had non-stop service on the ORD-Tokyo route, first through HND, then to NRT. Doing a little research on the database, it seems that UA began NRT service from ORD around 1990 after purchasing PA's Pacific network, though PA never flew that route. My question is when did NW end the service, and was it to move the frequency to the DTW hub, or did they utilize the frequency at another airport, like SEA? Also, was this always flown by 747-100 and 747-200 frames, or did thay ever use a DC10-30?

33 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineIrishAyes From United States of America, joined Jan 2008, 2091 posts, RR: 15
Reply 1, posted (1 year 3 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 7779 times:

Quoting IAHWorldflyer (Thread starter):
My question is when did NW end the service, and was it to move the frequency to the DTW hub, or did they utilize the frequency at another airport, like SEA?

I think the short answer to that question is on June 1, 1998. This Press Release attributes the withdrawal of the route to competition from AA and UA, although no mentioning of whether the flight was moved to a different US gateway city.

http://www.apnewsarchive.com/1998/No...d-8e49acc10231d4f1ad84df58a7f58566

I found an old thread (from 2006) that goes pretty well in-depth on the history of this route:

Northwest Orients Chicago History (by TheFlyGuy2 Feb 6 2006 in Civil Aviation)



next flights: msp-phx-slc, msp-mdw, ord-sju, sju-dfw-ord, msp-dfw, dfw-phl, phl-msp, jfk-icn, icn-hkg-bkk-cdg
User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 24347 posts, RR: 47
Reply 2, posted (1 year 3 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 7743 times:

For the record, UA did not get the ORD-NRT authority from PA in 1985, it was a separate route award in 1990.

http://articles.chicagotribune.com/1...yo-route-mathias-chicago-and-tokyo

=



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlineFWAERJ From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 3641 posts, RR: 2
Reply 3, posted (1 year 3 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 7540 times:

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 2):
For the record, UA did not get the ORD-NRT authority from PA in 1985, it was a separate route award in 1990.

However, between 1983 (when UA launched their first Pacific routes) and 1990 (when UA got nonstop ORD-NRT authority), UA did have same-plane service NRT-SEA-ORD.



I don't work for FWA, their tenants, or their ad agency. But I still love FWA.
User currently offlinePSU.DTW.SCE From United States of America, joined Jan 2002, 7350 posts, RR: 28
Reply 4, posted (1 year 3 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 7096 times:

This is from a post I wrote back in 2009:

First lets talk about ORD-NRT:
Pre-regulation, NW almots had a mini-hub / focus city type operation out of ORD. In the 60's/70's had a decent number of routes out of ORD to places like ANC, HNL, MSY, MSP, etc.
NW started flying ORD-ANC-NRT/Tokyo in the early 60's.
In 1977 they started nonstop 747 service ORD-NRT. This was prior to the days of airlines operating large hubs.

The late 90's were an interesting time at NW. They had finally started to turn things around coming out of the financial meltdown in the early 90's and the NW-RC merger issues. Plus the US economy was going strong, and every was having a hey-day. At ORD, both AA and UA were duking it out for the 'battle of ORD'.

NRT was severely slot restricted and rights were hard to get into NRT. At the time UA had NRT service from ORD, but AA did not and at the time only offered DFW, SJC, and SEA service to NRT. In 1997, the US & Japan signed an agreement increase open skies and allow greater flights between the two countries.

AA announced they were going to now launch ORD-NRT, and later LAX-NRT, and later JFK-NRT.

NW decided they would pull ORD-NRT and the last flight was on June 1, 1998, and increase MSP-NRT to daily service (at the time it was weekly) and increase DTW-NRT to double daily. They also had launched MSP-KIX in 1997 and then launced DTW-NGO.

Essentially NW knew they couldn't compete on ORD, with 747's with no feed on the domestic side, relying on low yield/volume consolidator "beyond NRT" trafficm and route that was a carry-over from the pre-deregulation days came to an end.

Hence why the NW gate at the end of Concourse E at ORD is widebody capable, they used to park the 747 there.


User currently offlinecarpethead From Japan, joined Aug 2004, 2910 posts, RR: 3
Reply 5, posted (1 year 3 weeks ago) and read 6634 times:

Quoting PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 4):
NW decided they would pull ORD-NRT and the last flight was on June 1, 1998

Which I believe was the start-up date of AA's MD-11 ORD-NRT service. Or maybe it was one month earlier on May 1.
UA went from six-weekly 744 to double daily 744 that year and ANA started service around then with 744 too.
Interesting that now UA is back to a single daily 772. Though ANA announced double daily 77W this summer, the second flight is still not confirmed.

Quoting IAHWorldflyer (Thread starter):
Also, was this always flown by 747-100 and 747-200 frames, or did thay ever use a DC10-30?

The 747-100 would not have the legs to do it non-stop though any of 742s with JT9D-7Q engines can do it non-stop, which I believe was the equipment they did use on the route. The DC-10-30 were not used on that flight. Besides they cannot be flown non-stop.
The 742 flew to MSP in the afternoon and came back the following morning to fly the ORD-NRT route. However, I believe the actual flight number tagged to a ORD-BOS flight with a 727. By the mid to late 1990s, they stopped those flights and the 742 got hangered in the old NW hanger for close to 24 hours and because the old NW hanger couldn't fully fit the 747, the tail would often stick out. Please correct me if I am mistaken.


User currently offlineIAHWorldflyer From United States of America, joined Feb 2012, 172 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (1 year 2 weeks 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 6460 times:

Thank you to all the above posters who answered my questions. IrishAyes, thanks for being a better searcher than me and finding that 2006 thread on here.
It is interesting how NW gave up on the route when AA entered into the mix, yet AA, due to what I would assume were larger financial concerns in he overall company, ended up dropping the route after a decade or less of service.


User currently offlineIrishAyes From United States of America, joined Jan 2008, 2091 posts, RR: 15
Reply 7, posted (1 year 2 weeks 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 6328 times:

Quoting carpethead (Reply 5):
Though ANA announced double daily 77W this summer, the second flight is still not confirmed.

No, the service has been confirmed, but the start date (originally 29JUN13) has been pushed back tentatively to 31AUG13 due to the 787 cancellations.

Quoting IAHWorldflyer (Reply 6):
IrishAyes, thanks for being a better searcher than me and finding that 2006 thread on here.

Haha anytime. A tip: the anet search engine is pretty lousy. Use google instead and throw in keyword "airliners.net" and you should be able to yield a far greater number of results.



next flights: msp-phx-slc, msp-mdw, ord-sju, sju-dfw-ord, msp-dfw, dfw-phl, phl-msp, jfk-icn, icn-hkg-bkk-cdg
User currently offlineUTAH744 From United States of America, joined Jul 2009, 186 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (1 year 2 weeks 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 5375 times:

The NWA 747-299s that flew that route had their thrust reversers removed saving 6000# that was used for fuel.


You are never too old to learn something stupid
User currently offlineVC10DC10 From United States of America, joined Apr 2006, 1030 posts, RR: 2
Reply 9, posted (1 year 2 weeks 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 5203 times:

Quoting carpethead (Reply 5):
However, I believe the actual flight number tagged to a ORD-BOS flight with a 727.

It was in the late 80s and early 90s (though this timetable from 1992 on the wonderful DepartedFlights.com website shows the tag on a DC-9-50:

http://www.departedflights.com/NW121592intro.html

In the early 1980s, NW Flight 3 operated the following pattern, with 747-251B equipment:

JFK-IAD-ORD-NRT (daily)

From NRT the flight continued onward, though with differing routings depending on the day of service:

NRT-OKA-MNL (Tuesdays; Monday departure from ORD)
NRT-MNL (Thursdays, Fridays, Sundays)
NRT-SEL-MNL (Saturdays)

Interestingly, it seems the reciprocal returning flights bypassed the stop at IAD.

http://www.departedflights.com/NW080182p40.html

Quoting UTAH744 (Reply 8):
The NWA 747-299s that flew that route had their thrust reversers removed saving 6000# that was used for fuel.

I have never heard of anyone doing this, and I was not aware that NW ever operated 747-299s. Do you have a source for this information?


User currently offlineSTT757 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 16694 posts, RR: 51
Reply 10, posted (1 year 2 weeks 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 5203 times:

Quoting IAHWorldflyer (Reply 6):
It is interesting how NW gave up on the route when AA entered into the mix, yet AA, due to what I would assume were larger financial concerns in he overall company, ended up dropping the route after a decade or less of service.

AA still flies ORD-NRT.



Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
User currently offlineQantas744er From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 1280 posts, RR: 4
Reply 11, posted (1 year 2 weeks 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 5008 times:

Quoting UTAH744 (Reply 8):
The NWA 747-299s that flew that route had their thrust reversers removed saving 6000# that was used for fuel.

Never happened.

Quoting VC10DC10 (Reply 9):
I have never heard of anyone doing this, and I was not aware that NW ever operated 747-299s. Do you have a source for this information?



Happiness is V1 in Lagos
User currently offlineEMB170 From United States of America, joined Nov 2007, 644 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (1 year 2 weeks 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 4733 times:

Quoting carpethead (Reply 5):
However, I believe the actual flight number tagged to a ORD-BOS flight with a 727.
Quoting VC10DC10 (Reply 9):
It was in the late 80s and early 90s (though this timetable from 1992 on the wonderful DepartedFlights.com website shows the tag on a DC-9-50:

You're both correct. NRT-ORD-BOS at times operated with the 72S, then later the D95, and near the end, A319/A320 equipment as the tag-on portion of NW 5/6. I remember flying TW out of E8 on the opposite side of the hall and seeing the NW A320 to BOS departing from E7.



Can passenger jets fly as fast as my feet do? Let's find out...
User currently offlinee38 From United States of America, joined May 2008, 300 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (1 year 2 weeks 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 4660 times:

Quoting PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 4), "Hence why the NW gate at the end of Concourse E at ORD is widebody capable, they used to park the 747 there."

That is correct. It is Gate E-15 and is still used by Delta today.

e38


User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 24109 posts, RR: 23
Reply 14, posted (1 year 2 weeks 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 4660 times:

Quoting Qantas744er (Reply 11):
Quoting UTAH744 (Reply 8):
The NWA 747-299s that flew that route had their thrust reversers removed saving 6000# that was used for fuel.

Never happened.

Agree, and there's no such thing as a 747-299. The Boeing customer code "99" was used by British Caledonian Airways and the only Boeing aircraft delivered new to B.Cal. bearing their 99 customer code were two 707-399Cs in 1967.


User currently offlineTW870 From United States of America, joined Jan 2013, 173 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (1 year 2 weeks 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 3823 times:
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Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 14):
Agree, and there's no such thing as a 747-299. The Boeing customer code "99" was used by British Caledonian Airways and the only Boeing aircraft delivered new to B.Cal. bearing their 99 customer code were two 707-399Cs in 1967.

I am guessing the poster just mis-typed the designation as the 9 and 0 key are next to each other. But yes, the route could only have been flown with a 747-251B or 747-227B, three of which NW got from BN in the early 80s. I would also like to see a source for the thrust reverser removal, as I have never, ever heard that about 747 operations - but I always learn new things on a.net.

One follow up question. NW would have needed the -7Q birds to run ORD-NRT nonstop. But they also ran JFK-NRT non-stop with 747-200Bs. They got some late build aircraft in the mid-80s (ships 636, 637, and 638), which if I am not mistaken had even higher rated engines from the JT9D-7R4 series. Did they have to put these aircraft with uprated engines on JFK-NRT, or could they fly it with a -7Q powered airplane like, say ship 631 or 632?


User currently offlineTango-Bravo From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 3788 posts, RR: 30
Reply 16, posted (1 year 2 weeks 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 3562 times:

Quoting carpethead (Reply 5):
The 742 flew to MSP in the afternoon and came back the following morning to fly the ORD-NRT route. However, I believe the actual flight number tagged to a ORD-BOS flight with a 727. By the mid to late 1990s, they stopped those flights and the 742 got hangered in the old NW hanger for close to 24 hours and because the old NW hanger couldn't fully fit the 747, the tail would often stick out. Please correct me if I am mistaken.

IIRC, the MSP-ORD 747-251B positioning flight (for the non-stop ORD-NRT flight) departed MSP at 08:00 and had a layover at the gate at ORD of some 3-4 hrs before departing for NRT. Was a pax on this flight in April 1994...got to sit in Business Class on coach fare (w/ no FF status) due to seating configuration having greater # of premium class seats than typical for a NW 742(?)...or was it perhaps because on the short hop MSP-ORD NW treated the Business cabin as an extension of Y?...in any event there was nothing about the inflight service to differentiate it from Y...just a larger more comfortable seat.

The 742 return flight to MSP from ORD following NRT-ORD n/s departed ORD at 17:00. Watched it push back while waiting at the gate 'next door' for a NW D95 flight departing 18:00 for my return to MSP.

Around the same time one could often (if not regularly) see a 747 tail protruding from the NW hangar at MSP through an opening in the hangar doors that appeared to be custom-designed for the purpose -- remember it looking to me as if the hangar were 'giving birth' to a 747.


User currently offlineRWA380 From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 2887 posts, RR: 5
Reply 17, posted (1 year 2 weeks 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 3505 times:

Quoting FWAERJ (Reply 3):
UA did have same-plane service NRT-SEA-ORD.

And on Tuesdays in both directions, this was routed ORD-PDX-NRT-PDX-ORD I took their 742 once ORD-PDX.



Rule number One, NEVER underestimate the other guys greed
User currently offlinecarpethead From Japan, joined Aug 2004, 2910 posts, RR: 3
Reply 18, posted (1 year 2 weeks 6 days ago) and read 3416 times:

Quoting TW870 (Reply 15):
They got some late build aircraft in the mid-80s (ships 636, 637, and 638), which if I am not mistaken had even higher rated engines from the JT9D-7R4 series. Did they have to put these aircraft with uprated engines on JFK-NRT, or could they fly it with a -7Q powered airplane like, say ship 631 or 632

Same as UA & JL for the NRT-JFK routes. The high-gross weight and high engine power 747-200Bs with JT9D-7R4G2 was exclusive for that route. JL had three and UA had two. Only NH had GE-powered ones.
-7Qs could probably make the eastbound journey all-year but no way on the west-bound, particularly in the winter.


User currently offlineTango-Bravo From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 3788 posts, RR: 30
Reply 19, posted (1 year 2 weeks 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 3193 times:

Quoting carpethead (Reply 18):
Quoting TW870 (Reply 15):
They got some late build aircraft in the mid-80s (ships 636, 637, and 638), which if I am not mistaken had even higher rated engines from the JT9D-7R4 series. Did they have to put these aircraft with uprated engines on JFK-NRT, or could they fly it with a -7Q powered airplane like, say ship 631 or 632

Same as UA & JL for the NRT-JFK routes. The high-gross weight and high engine power 747-200Bs with JT9D-7R4G2 was exclusive for that route. JL had three and UA had two. Only NH had GE-powered ones.
-7Qs could probably make the eastbound journey all-year but no way on the west-bound, particularly in the winter.

Which leads me to ask... Were Pan Am's 747SP-21s able to consistently fly JFK-NRT (westbound) non-stop, even in the winter months?

Have always been curious as to why NW and JL were willing to concede for as long as they did such a high-profile (and presumably highly profitable) route on a non-stop basis to PA...when both could easily have financed their own 747SPs to 'keep up' with PA. Interestingly, when UA took over PA's Pacific routes (in 1986) along with some (all?) of PA's 747SPs, they replaced them with the above-mentioned 747-222Bs (N151/152UA) as soon as the pair were delivered (March and April 1987).


User currently offlineWA707atMSP From United States of America, joined Oct 2006, 2179 posts, RR: 12
Reply 20, posted (1 year 2 weeks 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 3180 times:

Quoting Tango-Bravo (Reply 19):
Quoting carpethead (Reply 18):
Quoting TW870 (Reply 15):
They got some late build aircraft in the mid-80s (ships 636, 637, and 638), which if I am not mistaken had even higher rated engines from the JT9D-7R4 series. Did they have to put these aircraft with uprated engines on JFK-NRT, or could they fly it with a -7Q powered airplane like, say ship 631 or 632

Same as UA & JL for the NRT-JFK routes. The high-gross weight and high engine power 747-200Bs with JT9D-7R4G2 was exclusive for that route. JL had three and UA had two. Only NH had GE-powered ones.
-7Qs could probably make the eastbound journey all-year but no way on the west-bound, particularly in the winter.

Which leads me to ask... Were Pan Am's 747SP-21s able to consistently fly JFK-NRT (westbound) non-stop, even in the winter months?

I know that from time to time PA 747SPs stopped at DTW for fuel on the eastbound flights, so I would assume PA had to stop more often on westbound flights.



Seaholm Maples are #1!
User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 24109 posts, RR: 23
Reply 21, posted (1 year 2 weeks 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 3111 times:

Quoting Tango-Bravo (Reply 19):
Interestingly, when UA took over PA's Pacific routes (in 1986) along with some (all?) of PA's 747SPs

All 11 Pan Am 747SPs (10 delivered new and one ex-Braniff) went to UA.


User currently offlinecarpethead From Japan, joined Aug 2004, 2910 posts, RR: 3
Reply 22, posted (1 year 2 weeks 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 2893 times:

Quoting Tango-Bravo (Reply 19):
Have always been curious as to why NW and JL were willing to concede for as long as they did such a high-profile (and presumably highly profitable) route on a non-stop basis to PA

For JL, the only route that would require an 747SP is the NRT-JFK. Same for NW, but they could easily funnel the NYC bound passengers via DTW or other west-coast gateway to NRT. By contrast, PA had numerous transpacific routes that only the 747SP could make non-stop like LAX-SYD or LAX-HKG.
Interestingly enough JL operated the NRT-JFK route with DC-10-40 via ANC until the high-gross weight 747 arrived.


User currently offlineWA707atMSP From United States of America, joined Oct 2006, 2179 posts, RR: 12
Reply 23, posted (1 year 2 weeks 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 2870 times:

Quoting carpethead (Reply 22):
For JL, the only route that would require an 747SP is the NRT-JFK. Same for NW, but they could easily funnel the NYC bound passengers via DTW or other west-coast gateway to NRT.

Northwest did not fly DTW-NRT non stop until 1987, several years after NW began JFK-NRT nonstops with 747-200s.

Until NW began JFK-NRT nonstops, they flew JFK-SEA-Tokyo.



Seaholm Maples are #1!
User currently offlineTW870 From United States of America, joined Jan 2013, 173 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (1 year 2 weeks 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 2726 times:
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Quoting Tango-Bravo (Reply 16):

The 742 return flight to MSP from ORD following NRT-ORD n/s departed ORD at 17:00. Watched it push back while waiting at the gate 'next door' for a NW D95 flight departing 18:00 for my return to MSP.

I flew on that positioning flight in the spring of 1984. Back then, Northwest was still departing from D concourse at O'Hare. I remember how high the nose of the 747 sat relative to the low floor of the concourse. The load was really light, and I sat in the front of E-zone just a couple of rows behind 4L next to the economy galley. The coach seats were red and orange with patterns much like the delivery interior on the 757s - but newer than the crazy orange and rust patterned seats from the 70s in the DC-10-40s and 727s. Not sure if that was because the airplane had gotten a new interior, or because it was one of the newer 747s they had picked up from Braniff and from the factory in the early 1980s. Pulled up at MSP all the way at the end of the red concourse at gate 38 - and my guess is the airplane went to the hangar for maintenance afterwards as that was the point of the tag-on. An amazing ride for a short flight!


25 FlyASAGuy2005 : What wouldbe the equivalent gate today? F15?[Edited 2013-04-04 18:51:58]
26 TW870 : The equivalent would be F12. That gate is still a widebody gate today, though it is not used as one nearly as often as the international flights now
27 FlyASAGuy2005 : MSP is just one of those airports that really facinates me as the facilities really hasn't changed that much since the terminal opened. Most of the ga
28 TW870 : I believe the D gates were built immediately after the merger, and thus the original tenant was Northwest. The construction project eliminated the ol
29 Post contains links FlyASAGuy2005 : I'm going off this this: http://www.mspairport.com/social-media/fun-facts.aspx I'm assuming there was always the upper passenger level but the actual
30 RWA380 : If it had been already fitted for BN, those coach seats would have been leather, if the plane was to match other BN 747's.
31 carpethead : For some reason, I thought they started it a few years earlier. Thanks. So in other words, NRT-ORD was the longest flight from the US to Japan until
32 WA707atMSP : Pan Am began JFK-HND nonstops in April, 1976 with 747SPs. NW did not begin flying ORD-HND non stop until the spring of 1977.
33 redtailsforever : I also took the ORD-MSP 747 sector back in July 1991. I sat just behind the L2 door. They sold the Business class seats as Economy. I'll never forget
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