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UAE Carriers' Canadian Rights  
User currently offlineChicagoFlyer From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 272 posts, RR: 0
Posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 8094 times:

So after Canada refused to grant Emirates and Etihad additional landing rights, and faced retaliation, it seems some of the issue is settled over Tim Horton's coffee (what is a double-double?).

Looks like Canadians can again go to UAE visa-free, but can UAE carriers add more Canadian flights? The article is silent, so does anyone know?

104 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinedumbell2424 From United States of America, joined Apr 2009, 925 posts, RR: 2
Reply 1, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 8041 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting ChicagoFlyer (Thread starter):
(what is a double-double?).
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Double-Double

This definition is Safe for Work.


User currently offlinethenoflyzone From Canada, joined Jan 2001, 2497 posts, RR: 11
Reply 2, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 7898 times:

Quoting ChicagoFlyer (Thread starter):
The article is silent, so does anyone know?

not really silent.

"although a Canadian source insisted no new concessions were offered to seal the visa-fee change."

Seems to me the U.A.E is coming to its senses on this issue without Canada having to increase landing rights. What the U.A.E did a few years ago was childish and they know it. This is them fixing it.

Additional landing rights will be granted throught proper diplomacy. This is them taking a step in the right direction.

Thenoflyzone

[Edited 2013-04-02 21:17:27]


us Air Traffic Controllers have a good record, we haven't left one up there yet !!
User currently offlineuaeflyer From United Arab Emirates, joined Nov 2006, 1084 posts, RR: 1
Reply 3, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 7880 times:

The landing right issue was never mentioned in the negotiations .. The focus more was into the business and political.


http://www.montrealgazette.com/news/...sa+requirements/8183509/story.html


User currently offlineQatarA340 From Qatar, joined May 2006, 1851 posts, RR: 9
Reply 4, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 7712 times:

Quoting thenoflyzone (Reply 2):
Seems to me the U.A.E is coming to its senses on this issue without Canada having to increase landing rights. What the U.A.E did a few years ago was childish and they know it. This is them fixing it.

Is it childish to refuse landing slots for more than 6 flights a week to a country who is 3.855 million sq miles with 35 million people?



لا اله الا الله محمد رسول الله
User currently offlinejoecanuck From Canada, joined Dec 2005, 5471 posts, RR: 30
Reply 5, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 7634 times:

Quoting QatarA340 (Reply 4):

Nope...not if Canadians can be better served by airlines with bases having much larger O&D traffic than the UAE. Very few Canadians visit the UAE for vacation. There are significant numbers of Canadians living and working in the UAE, but those visas have always been paid for, usually by the hiring company as part of the employment package.

The visa restrictions were a pr move and had little effect on most Canadians...which is evident from the complete lack of complaints since the move.

While the public spat was catching headlines, (for a few days), it was business as usual behind the scenes between the UAE and Canada. Work visas for Canadians were the same as always and business conditions were also unchanged.

Some will claim that the move was just to protect Air Canada...and while there may be a small bit of truth to that, it is not nearly the primary reason. First, Air Canada doesn't fly to the middle east or most places Emirates would fly from Canada. Second, the slots would go to airlines from countries with significant O&D traffic...a great many of which are direct competitors of Air Canada.

Slots are a finite commodity and the travelling public is best served by travel options to where they are most likely to go.

As it is, there is no shortage of routes to the UAE from Canada. There are the 6 direct flights from YYC, and I rarely connected through

What the...?
User currently offlinejoecanuck From Canada, joined Dec 2005, 5471 posts, RR: 30
Reply 6, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 7623 times:

Edit function gone mad.

Anyway, I was saying that I rarely connected through YYZ and it was never the best option for me.



What the...?
User currently offlinekevin From Canada, joined Dec 2000, 1144 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 7624 times:

Quoting uaeflyer (Reply 3):
The landing right issue was never mentioned in the negotiations .. The focus more was into the business and political

According to an article in The National, last month 6 Canadian MPs visited UAE and met up with Tim Clark to discuss the issue.


User currently offlinemarco From United Arab Emirates, joined Jul 2000, 4169 posts, RR: 12
Reply 8, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 2 days ago) and read 7528 times:

I also think it's childish (and backwards) of the Canadian government to be promoting a protectionist environment in this day and age, under the disguise of "inadequate O&D". Anyone who's flown on AF/KL/BA/SR to Canada knows this is a ridiuclous argument. Apparently, it's not only Emirates that's "subsidised"!


Proud to be an Assyrian!
User currently offlineElPistolero From Canada, joined Feb 2012, 1019 posts, RR: 4
Reply 9, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 7399 times:

First, an admission: I enjoy typing these posts as much as the vast majority of you enjoy reading my posts (which is to say, not a lot). However, I cannot, for the life of me, understand some Canadian posters' constant need to be paternalistic, and to attempt to obuscate and distort the fact. This moves me just enough to point out the following:

Quoting joecanuck (Reply 5):
Nope...not if Canadians can be better served by airlines with bases having much larger O&D traffic than the UAE.

That explains the daily flights to VIE or the 4 daily flights to AMS. This argument sounds great in theory, but it doesn't apply in practice.

Quoting joecanuck (Reply 5):
Some will claim that the move was just to protect Air Canada...and while there may be a small bit of truth to that, it is not nearly the primary reason. First, Air Canada doesn't fly to the middle east or most places Emirates would fly from Canada. Second, the slots would go to airlines from countries with significant O&D traffic...a great many of which are direct competitors of Air Canada.

'Some'? Underselling it a bit, don't you think. Theres an entire senate hearing on aviation that includes quite a few notable and well-informed people (senators, economists, industry experts) who state quite clearly that it was a move to protect AC.

The rest of your post is rather pointless. AC has a webpage on its own website dedicated to EK, which suggests to me that they are competing with it directly. And then there's the CEO stating on record that if YOW-FRA loses the 15% of its traffic that connects to the ME in FRA, the route will become unviable. So no, AC does not fly to the ME or most of the places EK flies to, but it its overlord in FRA does, and since AC is so dependent on moving connecting traffic to FRA (look at the amount of AC metal that goes there on a daily basis), it needs the protection both for itself or LH. If that traffic started moving away from FRA, AC would suffer. That's the CEO's claim, anyway.

So yes, this was about protecting AC. As for the O&D traffic claim, how many of those slots have gone to LH, OS, LX, all of which are essentially AC by any other name - and not "direct competitors". But that aside, there's also an issue with how you define significant O&D. There are any number of markets where potential exists, but which can't be served by the airlines of the respective nations because of financial or technical constraints. Do we just act like they don't exist?

Quoting joecanuck (Reply 5):
Slots are a finite commodity and the travelling public is best served by travel options to where they are most likely to go.

In IST or LHR, sure. In Canada? You're having a laugh. But aside from that, I agree. Let the travelling public decide how it is best served. As it turns out, that is one of AC CEO Rovinescu's big fears in the context of YOW-FRA:

"Air Canada's Rovinescu cites Ottawa-Frankfurt as an example. "When you look at who travels on this flight, only 15% are people going between Ottawa and Frankfurt. The other 85% are connecting in Frankfurt to fly somewhere else. If another carrier siphons off even just the 15% headed for the Middle East, then the route is no longer viable.""

He seems to be under the impression that that 15% of ME bound pax will choose a two-stop YOW-YYZ-DXB-Destination on EK over a YOW-FRA-Destination on AC/LH. And why not? If the travelling public feels that that caters better to their goals in terms of value-for-money etc, then why not give them free reign.

http://www.flightglobal.com/news/art...essages-on-the-middle-east-349163/

Quoting joecanuck (Reply 5):

As it is, there is no shortage of routes to the UAE from Canada.

Thank you for letting us know that we have 'enough' options. Canadian paternalism at its best. Don't ask for more or better - make do with the current level of mediocrity because someone here deems it good enough for everyone. Why let pax make their own choices when the government/Canadian a.net posters can make it for them?


User currently offlinelightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 13138 posts, RR: 100
Reply 10, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 7290 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Good to hear one step is cleared. The trade is a bigger chunk of money than air rights.

Quoting thenoflyzone (Reply 2):
Additional landing rights will be granted throught proper diplomacy. This is them taking a step in the right direction.

I wonder, AC has been on shaky ground for a while. Yet without granting the UAE carriers more rights, the UAE will be hesitant to grant Canada anything in bilateral negotiation. And the UAE is effectively the 'efficient middleman' for India...

Quoting ElPistolero (Reply 9):
"Air Canada's Rovinescu cites Ottawa-Frankfurt as an example. "When you look at who travels on this flight, only 15% are people going between Ottawa and Frankfurt. The other 85% are connecting in Frankfurt to fly somewhere else. If another carrier siphons off even just the 15% headed for the Middle East, then the route is no longer viable.""

Interesting numbers. Thank you.

Lightsaber



Societies that achieve a critical mass of ideas achieve self sustaining growth; others stagnate.
User currently offlineCPA62 From Canada, joined Jan 2012, 53 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 7129 times:

Quoting marco (Reply 8):
I also think it's childish (and backwards) of the Canadian government to be promoting a protectionist environment in this day and age, under the disguise of "inadequate O&D". Anyone who's flown on AF/KL/BA/SR to Canada knows this is a ridiuclous argument. Apparently, it's not only Emirates that's "subsidised

I agree!!


User currently offlinesierra3tango From Bahrain, joined Mar 2013, 331 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 7087 times:

Quoting CPA62 (Reply 11):

Maybe slightly off topic but very much the same govermental mind set involved.

Is not Australia limiting QR's access to their market, using roughly the same argument ?


User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 25372 posts, RR: 22
Reply 13, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 6858 times:

Quoting ElPistolero (Reply 9):
First, an admission: I enjoy typing these posts as much as the vast majority of you enjoy reading my posts (which is to say, not a lot).

You have made all of your arguments many, many times before. Is it really necessary to go through all of this again? It would be simpler (and reduce your typing) if you just posted links to some of the many earlier threads.


User currently offlineElPistolero From Canada, joined Feb 2012, 1019 posts, RR: 4
Reply 14, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 6793 times:

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 13):
You have made all of your arguments many, many times before. Is it really necessary to go through all of this again? It would be simpler (and reduce your typing) if you just posted links to some of the many earlier threads.

Truthbetold, I have a hard time finding old threads, let alone linking individual posts.

That aside, I will continue to challenge assertions that are questionable, no matter how often they show up.

What surprises me more than anything is the surprising frequency with which this issue comes up again and again. Granted, this time it was about the Visa issue, but I always thought the visa issue was based on the UAE's stated policy of visa reciprocity and not neccessarily linked to the EK issue. They have been lobbying for visa free access for all or some of their citizens (royal family, I think) for a while now. There is a tendency to link the visas with EK, but the visa issue has been around for equally long, if not longer.

While I don't expect any major concessions on the EK front anytime soon - certainly none related to the visa issue - I am curious to see if we have made any concessions on the visa front. Will we be granting them the visa/visa-free access that they want?

Edit: Found the link - it includes a quote by a Canadian Foreign Affairs Spokesperson stating that the decision to require visas was made in 2009.

“The policy is based on a policy of reciprocity,” Ambassador Mohamed Abdulla Al Ghafli said via his office Tuesday.

The line was echoed by officials at the Foreign Affairs Department in Ottawa.

“In 2009 the UAE made a decision to pursue visa reciprocity with many countries, including Canada, that did not offer UAE citizens visa-free access,” spokesman Jacques Labrie said in an email.

“The UAE government is now implementing its 2009 decision.”

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/...or-tat-visa-demand/article1216416/

Of course, the timing of the implementation was suspect - and many have understandably concluded that it was 'retaliation'. However, if the decision was made in 2009, as our own Foreign Affairs Department states, then, well, it isn't consistent with the Canadian narrative here on a.net (much like the Canadian narrative on EK and Australia).

[Edited 2013-04-03 17:38:45]

[Edited 2013-04-03 17:39:44]

User currently offlinemarco From United Arab Emirates, joined Jul 2000, 4169 posts, RR: 12
Reply 15, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 6631 times:

@ Viscount724

Well the usual anti-UAE/Emirates members have also made their points (many, many) times, so why the double standards?

I appreciate the fact that he actually responds to those allegations, some of which are just ridiculous!



Proud to be an Assyrian!
User currently offlineRyanairGuru From Australia, joined Oct 2006, 5597 posts, RR: 5
Reply 16, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 6602 times:

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 13):
You have made all of your arguments many, many times before

Well the usual crowd have also made their point many, many times but you didn't feel the need to chide them. Oh but of course, it doesn't fit your agenda  

El Pistolero's posts are actually quite refreshing (regardless of agenda) because he is one of the few posters who consistently uses sources to support his argument, something the anti-EK brigade rarely do.

Quoting sierra3tango (Reply 12):
Is not Australia limiting QR's access to their market, using roughly the same argument ?

Don't get me started! QR are entitled to 14 weekly frequencies for DOH-SYD/MEL/PER/BNE and unlimited frequencies to everywhere else. This means that unless they want to launch ADL, DRW, CNS, CBR etc QR are maxed out with 1 daily flight each to MEL and PER (14 flights per week)

http://www.infrastructure.gov.au/avi...ster_available_capacity_280313.pdf



Worked Hard, Flew Right
User currently offlineYTZ From Canada, joined Jun 2009, 2015 posts, RR: 24
Reply 17, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 6400 times:

I still can't see more access for EK/EY anytime soon.

User currently offlineyyz717 From Canada, joined Sep 2001, 16285 posts, RR: 56
Reply 18, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 6279 times:

Quoting joecanuck (Reply 5):
Very few Canadians visit the UAE for vacation.
Quoting joecanuck (Reply 5):
The visa restrictions were a pr move and had little effect on most Canadians...which is evident from the complete lack of complaints since the move.

Exactly. This is a non-issue for the overwhelming majority of Canadians. The tiny Indo-Canadian community benefits from the geography of the UAE as a stepping stone for travel to India, but that's it. No one else.

Quoting marco (Reply 8):
I also think it's childish (and backwards) of the Canadian government to be promoting a protectionist environment in this day and age


Canada needs no lessons on backwardness from the any aspect of life in the UAE.

Quoting thenoflyzone (Reply 2):
What the U.A.E did a few years ago was childish and they know it.

Exactly. Childish and embarassing diplomatic stunts such as this do little to improve the standing of the UAE in the world.

Nice to see Canada standing its ground against these UAE temper tantrums and the aggressive non-market driven and government-supported expansionism of the predatory UAE carriers.



[Edited 2013-04-04 22:58:17]


Panam, TWA, Ansett, Eastern.......AC next? Might be good for Canada.
User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 25372 posts, RR: 22
Reply 19, posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 6068 times:

Quoting RyanairGuru (Reply 16):
Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 13):
You have made all of your arguments many, many times before

Well the usual crowd have also made their point many, many times but you didn't feel the need to chide them. Oh but of course, it doesn't fit your agenda

My comments were intended to apply to the entire discussion of the Canada-UAE issues which have been repeated so many times and nothing has really changed to warrant a new thread every few weeks where the same arguments (on both sides) are repeated over and over.


User currently offlinegr8circle From Canada, joined Dec 2005, 3107 posts, RR: 4
Reply 20, posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 6024 times:

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 10):
And the UAE is effectively the 'efficient middleman' for India...

"Middleman"?  

Did you mean to say an efficient transit point or something like that?


User currently offlinelonghauler From Canada, joined Mar 2004, 4993 posts, RR: 43
Reply 21, posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 6014 times:

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 19):
My comments were intended to apply to the entire discussion of the Canada-UAE issues which have been repeated so many times and nothing has really changed to warrant a new thread every few weeks where the same arguments (on both sides) are repeated over and over.

Hear hear!

I sometimes feel that people think if they win a "debate" here, then the Government of Canada will change their policies! My personal feeling is that if one feels so strongly, write your MP.



Never gonna grow up, never gonna slow down .... Barefoot Blue Jean Night
User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25292 posts, RR: 85
Reply 22, posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 6002 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting yyz717 (Reply 18):
Nice to see Canada standing its ground against these UAE temper tantrums and the aggressive non-market driven and government-supported expansionism of the predatory UAE carriers.

It is hard to imagine the success of Emirates as "non-merket driven." It's not as if the planes are flying around empty.

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offline3rdGen From Bahrain, joined Jul 2011, 236 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 5948 times:

Quoting yyz717 (Reply 18):
Exactly. This is a non-issue for the overwhelming majority of Canadians. The tiny Indo-Canadian community benefits from the geography of the UAE as a stepping stone for travel to India, but that's it. No one else.

There are many others who also stand to benefit, not just Indians, but if you're a white Canadian and the entire scope of your travel includes Europe, US and the occasional trip "down south" then you are not too bothered so long as you see competition and cheap fares in these areas, as for the rest of the rabble, who really cares right?

And yes it is about saving AC. AC fill up a substantial amount of space in their flights to major hubs in Europe with transit pax moving onward, which no doubt EK will steal from them if they are given further landing rights. You're kidding yourself if you keep using these arguments about O&D traffic etc. especially when its already been proven that this same rule seems to be waived when it comes to some other carriers.


User currently offlinepnwtraveler From Canada, joined Jun 2007, 2243 posts, RR: 12
Reply 24, posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 5930 times:

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 13):
Quoting ElPistolero (Reply 9):
First, an admission: I enjoy typing these posts as much as the vast majority of you enjoy reading my posts (which is to say, not a lot).

You have made all of your arguments many, many times before. Is it really necessary to go through all of this again? It would be simpler (and reduce your typing) if you just posted links to some of the many earlier threads.

Non-issue for Canadians, non-issue for the majority of travelers, and non-issue for me. I am quite happy to have EK or any other carrier follow the same procedure as any other carrier. This merry go round every couple of weeks is so tiresome.


25 ElPistolero : Agreed. That said, if someone asks a question and another person responds with questionable assertions, I, for one, will contiune to challenge the as
26 Post contains images yyz717 : Oh noo...it's much more fun to post on here. My MP (Olivia Chow) has, probably, better things to worry about than temper tantrums from the UAE. The U
27 Post contains links mariner : Many governments help build airports, as a national resource. If the airlines can fill the planes to and from those airports, i don't see the problem
28 3rdGen : Ok but what about: Iranians Iraqis Sri Lankans Pakistanis Bangladeshis Afghanis Nepalis Egyptians Sudanis Somalis Syrians Saudis Bahrainis Emiratis O
29 Post contains links ElPistolero : So do the Americans: "U.S. airports pay virtually no rent, no municipal taxes and are able to issue tax-free bonds. In addition, they receive billion
30 Post contains links ElPistolero : Might as well put one of these myths through the grinder: Hon. Bob Rae (Toronto Centre, Lib.): "Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the government. Whe
31 threepoint : When you refer to Dubai as a "minor destination" I understand you mean in terms of Canadian travelers rather than from a global perspective. However,
32 3rdGen : @YYZ717 And here's one more point: If it's no big deal and AC has nothing to lose, because they don't serve "those" markets that EK is targeting, why
33 upwardfacing : A key difference between Canada and Australia is that Canadians can and do travel via the United States. From Western Canada, Alaska Airlines and Emi
34 Post contains links upwardfacing : For comparison, here are a few examples of O&D data from US metropolitan areas to Dubai: Houston-Dubai 2003: 11,548 2011: 75,393 [Emirates commenc
35 upwardfacing : Don't stop there. You can add even more nationalities. From eastern Canada and the United States, the Gulf carriers are a competitive option for the
36 Post contains links ElPistolero : I think the comparison remains valid if only for one reason: key figures in the industry - some of the best informed people out there - think it is v
37 theginge : It does seem strange that Air Canada has to have something on its website about a competitor like Emirates. They are obviously worried but as others h
38 YTZ : AC stands to lose to. Guess who provides LH the feed?
39 Viscount724 : I believe the only current Canada-JFK service is from YYZ and YUL (all RJs except for Jazz Q400s from YYZ which recently replaced CRJs), plus the dai
40 upwardfacing : I think you may have missed the part about driving, taking a bus or train, or buying a separate air ticket. It's not simply about JFK flight availabil
41 upwardfacing : I have no hard data but am just going by what I have read elsewhere. If you investigate this further, you just might change your mind. AS and EK have
42 ElPistolero : I didn't. Buses from YUL take 6 - 8 hours to get to NYC. Its a little longer from YOW - the other major population center near NYC, is even further a
43 yyz717 : My point is that the airport expansion in the UAE is all out of proportion to market growth, but is directly aligned to the growth of the UAE carrier
44 mariner : I don't see how it distorts the market - people are not forced to fly Emirates, there's no law saying they must - but, as above, governments all over
45 upwardfacing : Sure, but you'd be surprised what kinds of things people on a budget do. Especially students, people who travel literally once in 5 years, retirees,
46 Post contains links ElPistolero : That is low-yielding price-sensitive traffic that, one could argue, would simply not exist if it were not for the options provided by the US. Its not
47 yyz717 : 446 passengers a day. In other words, the same one-way traffic as perhaps the YYZ-YXE or YYZ-YQR markets. A small market indeed..... Pulling out of a
48 brilondon : Jazz only flies from YYZ to JFK. This is only for connections to airlines that fly only into JFK, there are plenty of other choices going to LGA and
49 Post contains links ElPistolero : YYZ - FRA 2 X 773 = 698 seats 1 X 340 = 266 - 306 seats For a total of a shade over 1000 seats. What does that make FRA? An average market? India -&g
50 YTZ : I've come to the conclusion that AC will never serve India. Their cost base is too high to compete with virtually any non-Western airline. Their comm
51 yyz717 : I'm sure AC will serve India eventually as the Indo-Canadian community grows and if/when business traffic grows in concert with India's economic grow
52 Viscount724 : Two stops? It was YYZ-ZRH-DEL to the best of my memory. Where was the 2nd stop? AC had also announced and was accepting reservations for YVR-DEL nons
53 Post contains links yyz717 : It was 2004/2005. The 343 and 345 were used on this route. The 343 sometimes refueled at Stockholm. http://www.aircanada.com/en/agents_n...sh/canada/
54 ElPistolero : It was YYZ-ZRH-DEL. Don't know about the 1990s, but there was definitely a flight in the mid-2000s. I flew the direct route in summer 2004 on a retur
55 Post contains images StarAC17 : Like a 2014 mayoral run Because they can't hub anywhere that is efficient which is why they have their *A partnerships and several agreements to serv
56 threepoint : Not to belabour the points made by StarAC17, but you fail to take into account the unavoidable variables of geography and proximity to popular destin
57 mariner : If it does not wear the trousers, then get out of the relationship. Any airline must do what is right for that airline and its shareholders. mariner
58 Post contains links ElPistolero : I've never cared for Canadian exceptionalism. These strike me more as excuses than as explanations. If Australia can generate 120m pax, then the corr
59 strfyr51 : somehow I think you're painting a pretty DIRE picture of AC and the LH *A relationship. AC is one of the oldest members in Star. They could have easi
60 ElPistolero : AC is doing better than it has in years, though questions remain about how well it would be doing without the government protecting it from competiti
61 Post contains images StarAC17 : Are you talking only on domestic flights or all flight combined?? If you are talking about international agreements then you have a case that the gov
62 ElPistolero : You brought up domestic routes. I just pointed out that some Canadians have a happy knack for critiquing Australian policies - even AC criticizes it
63 yyz717 : The next 40 years just might be the same in terms of travel patterns. Economic growth in India and China could easily stall and both countries could
64 ElPistolero : Consumers. If they choose not to fly EK, those other airports won't lose pax. Either which way, the Australian government is/should be more concerned
65 StarAC17 : Not just domestic I might add. JQ and VA fly long tasman routs, long haul routes to Asian hubs as well as LAX, HNL and JNB. Also and VA is giving a r
66 mariner : My point remains. Air Canada's primary loyalty should be to Air Canada and it's owners, which may include, overtly or covert, the taxpayer:. My only
67 YTZ : Can you explain to us why the Government of Australia or Australian citizens should be concerned about traffic being diverted from SIN or HKG to DXB?
68 YTZ : I dislike covert interests. And that's all that government protection of Air Canada is, at this point. If we have a national interest in protecting A
69 Post contains links yyz717 : Here's a good human rights issue: http://www.ibtimes.com/australian-mp...jewish-christian-travellers-793754 There is a serious risk of discrimination
70 Post contains links YTZ : You can't be serious. If that's the case, let's cut trade links with China. They are actually far worse in many ways than the UAE. Again. As long as
71 Post contains links mariner : It always amuses me when those on the right suddenly embrace homosexual rights in order to bash Islam. What she fails to mention is that homosexual a
72 yyz717 : And the Jewish issue? Do Australian Jews have legitimate concerns about connecting thru DXB? Should Australians (Jewish or not) be denied entry to Du
73 Post contains links mariner : Not according to Qantas. And the Jewish community in Australia, who have sought and received, they say, assurance: http://www.jewishnews.net.au/reass
74 Post contains links ElPistolero : This is an interesting argument coming from you. On the one hand, you claim that low prices can stimulate traffic. On the other hand, you claim all E
75 ElPistolero : Just to be clear, if anyone is uncomfortable connecting in DXB or AUH, they can connect through KUL, SIN, BKK, HKG, even CAN instead. No one is being
76 mariner : I get the perspective. It is being the "subservient" partner that puzzles me., Still, if that's what you want your airline to be, hey, I'm no't Canad
77 yyz717 : Jetstar, Qantas and Virgin all operate in the same environment (none receive government subsidies denied to the others, none have airports built for
78 Post contains links ElPistolero : I'm sure the good folk at AC don't think AC is subservient. I'm sure they'll spin a more optimistic tale. My conclusions are simply my own. They are
79 StarAC17 : I don't care where the money comes from as long as its from a legitimate source. But airlines as an aggregate (and transportation in general) generat
80 ElPistolero : I don't disagree, but its hard to know if capital will come unless we create the conditions for it to come. If it still doesn't come, then fair enoug
81 yyz717 : He has a point I suppose. A narrow point. But it's a vicious circle. When EK can fire aging FA's and keep hiring younger ones to keep costs low (and
82 threepoint : And pigs might fly. What you keep ignoring is the millions of Canadians who drive across the border to fly a US carrier to their destination and who
83 mariner : If it is to the airline's advantage then I don't have a problem with it. I simply picked up on this: I've never been particularly fond of the allianc
84 mariner : People "dictate" to private corporations all the time, by buying or not buying their products. The only question is how sensitive (or reactive) the c
85 Post contains links upwardfacing : El Pistolero, it was not my intent to excuse the Government of Canada or Air Canada for the current state of aviation there. Rather, I was simply poin
86 threepoint : For me, the question is neither, sir. To borrow a term, I too have no horse in this race. It's obvious to me what EK is doing in terms of making thei
87 upwardfacing : Plus the Arabian Peninsula and greater Middle East, Central Asia, much of Southeast Asia, and the Indian Ocean islands. BTW, there are other airlines
88 Post contains images mariner : I very much hope that some people, at least some of the people who matter, are asking themselves why so many people choose to fly Emirates. I also ho
89 ElPistolero : While that may be true, its equally true that over the past couple of years AC has been working hard to dis-incentivize its own FA jobs. Where EK sho
90 Viscount724 : AC's Asian network was largely inherited from their takeover of CP. CP began service to Tokyo and Hong Hong in 1949, soon after they began service to
91 pnwtraveler : If EK was a publicly traded company with securities oversight, publicized full financial statements, we wouldn't be having this discussion to the same
92 Post contains links mariner : I've read Emirates financial reports, which seem quite detailed to me, and are audited by Pricewaterhouse Cooper (PWC), a multinational accounting fi
93 yyz717 : What about the labour laws of Dubai? The ability of EK to fire any employee without severance, which ensures a low cost, low tenured employee based.
94 mariner : How did industrial relations get into this? I was responding to comments about financial reports. Will it be the religion next? We;'ve been through t
95 Post contains links ElPistolero : Theres a very interesting Porter thread going on elsewhere. Many Canadian a.netters seem befuddled by the fact that an airline can offer superior ser
96 Viscount724 : You can't compare an audit of a government-owned entity with no legal requirement to issue financial reports to audits of a publicly-traded company.
97 Post contains links mariner : It would be interesting to know how much of the revenue trickles down to the Cuban workers - in one form or another. I know many who say that Air Can
98 Post contains links ElPistolero : Everybody has to rely on data that the company provides, including shareholders in publicly traded companies. Enron comes to mind, though there was p
99 turjo101 : I am sorry if this has been discussed before; but could EK form some kind of partnership with Westjet or Porter, the way they did with Qantas, in orde
100 Viscount724 : I was referring to jobs for Canadian workers handling the dozens of daily peak season flights to/from Cuba. And are you implying that workers in hote
101 777way : they don't serve Canada. Access denied, and why is it opening to Air Canada site on EK link?
102 Post contains links ElPistolero : Not yet. They're starting some time this year. With the usual 2/3 weekly routinely. I think its 2 weekly for them (like ET). See that long list of ed
103 YTZ : It should be noted Cubana doesn't do much flying to Canada. But Cuba is probably more repressive than the UAE and Cubana still has more slots than EK/
104 upwardfacing : I think that there will be movement on this in the months ahead, even if it's a minor face-saving deal. Perhaps an agreement has even been made await
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